MJER Curriculum

[Earl Hartman]

In response to a request, I am posting the outline of the original MJER curriculum as put forth in the book "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki" (Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho) written by my late teacher, Masaoka Katsukane (Kazumi).

This curriculum is according to the Shinden Ryu Hissho (Secret Scrolls of the Shinden Ryu) redacted by the 13th headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, Yamakawa Yukio (the 2nd generation after the Tanimura-ha/Shimomura-ha split).

1. Omori Ryu Iai no Koto, Batto no Shoden, 11 forms from seiza
2. Eishin Ryu Iai no Koto, Batto no Chuden, 10 forms from iaihiza (tatehiza)
3. Tachiuchi no Kurai, 10 forms standing, daito vs. daito
4. Tsumeai no Kurai (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms in iaihiza, daito vs. daito
5. Daishozume (Shigenobu Ryu), 8 forms from iaihiza, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
6. Daisho Tachizume (Shigenobu Ryu), 7 forms standing, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
7. Daikendori, 10 forms total, 4 forms shoto vs. daito (shoto wins), 6 forms daito vs. daito
8. Batto no Okuden (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms from iaihiza, 12 standing forms.
9. Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu, 5 forms bo vs. bo, 8 forms sword vs. bo
10. Natsubara Ryu Yawara:
a. Yawara no Kata, 10 forms
b. Tachiai Kaisogake, Yawara no Kata, 10 forms
c. Kogusoku, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms (in these forms, both participants are seated in an "iaigoshi" posture, on their toes with left knee down and the right knee up)
d. Ato Tachiai, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms
e. Kogusoku Wari, Yawara No Kata, 10 forms
f. Honte no Utsuri, Yawara no Kata, 11 forms

Thus, the overall curriculum contains:

42 solo iai forms
45 paired sword kata
13 bojutsu kata
63 yawara/kogusoku forms

Masaoka S. also mentions jojutsu and torinawa as being part of the curriculum but gives no information about this. In his book, he aslo mentions that Oe S., in addition to iai, also studied Eishin Ryu Bojutsu (I assume this is the bojutsu mentioned above)and Shinkage Ryu kendo.

In any case, since this curriculum was put together by a headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, I don't know how it was/is viewed by adherents of the Tanimura-ha. However, Oe S. was trained in both lines of the school, which co-existed side-by-side in Tosa, so I presume that all practitioners were familiar with it. In any case, from what I know at the present time, it would appear that the yawara, bojutsu, jojutsu, and torinawa parts of the curriculum are either a) lost, b) not commonly practiced today, or c) are advanced parts of the curriculum known to only a few advanced practitioners.

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-21-2000 at 04:13 PM]

[ghp]

Earl,

A "most excellent" post. Thank you for sharing the curriculum with us.

Obviously, something has been left out of my education :D

Regards, and thanks again,
Guy

[Earl Hartman]

Guy:

Pretty cool, huh? Kinda changes your view of MJER, don't it?

The really interesting thing to me is how the curriculum is arranged: ALL of the paired kata come after shoden and chuden batto, but BEFORE the oku iai. The other thing is the high incidence of grappling techniques in some of the sword kata (these are separate from the yawara techniques).

Masaoka S. emphasizes the point that solo iai practice was not enough to maintain any real martial efficacy and that the paired kata, as opposed to being "tacked on", were an integral part of the curriculum and were essential to prevent iai from becoming "just a show for self-satisfaction where the enemy is forgotten" (his words). He also mentions that there is an Eishin Ryu "oboegaki" (addendum) that clearly states that "it is only by practicing the kata together with batto that the technique becomes useful in a real fight". This is why he referred to his art as "iai heiho" as opposed to "iaido", emphasizing its nature as a comprehensive martial discipline (sogo bujutsu).

Refreshing, huh? Too bad these warnings weren't heeded.

[Kris]

Extremely interesting. It seems I have much to ask my sensei. Of course, that will probably have to wait until my Japanese gets better ;)

[Robert Reinberger]

Mr. Hartman,

thank you very much.

Yours faithfully
Robert

[Jack B]

Interesting! Does the term 'Shigenobu Ryu' as applied to the Tsumeai no Kurai, Daishozume and Daisho Tachizume indicate the same origin as the Okuden waza?

The Bojutsu and Yawara carry different Ryu names that seem to follow the pattern of subsumed arts (as do the Omori and Eishin katas). Shigenobu is one of the founder Hayashizaki's names, so those kata sets seem to be attributed directly to the founder. Am I reading this correctly?

Since the Tachiuchi no Kurai and Daikendori are not attributed, do we know whence they came?

Parenthetically, there was a commentary in JJSA to the effect that Westerners seem much more interested in the 'katachi' waza than the Japanese. I imagine if someone were to find a sensei who knows all this material he/she could become very popular overseas.

Thanks,
Jack Bieler

[Earl Hartman]

I assume that the term Shigenobu Ryu refers to Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu.

I just listed the curriculum out as it is shown in Masaoka S.'s book. I really don't know the origin of these forms. Regarding the bojutsu and yawara, I assume, as you state, that they are subsumed arts.

Regarding the interest on the part of Westerners in the paired kata, since iai has developed into a solo exercise undertaken for "spiritual training" (I use the term advisedly) it is not so surprising that interest in the more combative aspects has waned. In Japan, I think this trend is deliberately cultivated. It seems to me that us round-eyes are more interested in the fighting aspect. It is a sword, after all.

[Undmark, Ulf]

Does anyone here know if the Tachiuchi no kurai and Tsumeai no kurai etc share any similarities/common origins with the paired kata of the Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu?
I believe they also have seated, paired Daito/Shoto kata...

Also, does anyone know if the MJER and the SMHR are two completely different lineages, orginating from the same teacher (Hayashizaki Shigenobu), or if they at some point were within one and the same line of teachers...only to split apart at some later period (then probably sometime around or before the time of Hasegawa Chikara no suke Eishin)?

Regards
Ulf Undmark

[Joanne Miller]

I am not sure about Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu ( located in Toyko) but the other Hayashizaki Ryu.(Hayashizaki Muso Ryu) which is located in Yamagata shares the same 3 headmaster as MJER lineage. (i.e in both MJER and Hayashizaki Muso Ryu the 1st 3 headmasters are listed as Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu , Tamiya Heibei Shigemasa , Nagano Muraku Nyudo Kinrosai )

From the 4th headmaster onwards both these ryuha differs between their lineage. In MJER line Momo Gumbei Mitsushige is listed as the 4th headmaster but for Hayashizaki Muso ryu it's a different person.

So, it seems that before Hasegawa Chikara no suke Eishin there was a split between these 2 lineages. I wonder if anybody out there has any infomation on Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu lineage as it would be interesting to see how the lineages differs between the 2 existing Hayashizaki ryu.

Cheers,

[Joanne Miller]

Hi all ,

It's really interesting to read about the curriculum of MJER by Masaoka Kazumi that Earl had shared with us. What I found really interesting is Earl's quote that :

"This curriculum is according to the Shinden Ryu Hissho (Secret Scrolls of the Shinden Ryu) redacted by the 13th headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, Yamakawa Yukio "

Just a thought.. but I was wondering if that is true wouldn't the Kumi tachi froms in MJER be exactly the same as Muso Shinden Ryu Kumi tachi forms,since Shimomura Ha is essentially Muso Shinden Ryu?

Anyway I whipped out Danzaki Tomoaki (of Muso Shinden Ryu fame) Book , "Iaido : Sono riai to shinzui" to compare the curriculum. The book listed the sets of the kumi tachi forms in the following order below


Kumi tachi no bu

1.Tachida no kurai - 10 forms all standing.
Both person have swords drawn out.

2.Kuraidori -9 forms all standing
In some of the forms the techinque starts with the sword still in saya.

3.Tsumeiai no kurai - 11 forms . 1st 5 both in tate hiza ,6th shidachi tate hiza ,uchidachi standing ,7-11 both standing.
Some forms begin with sword in Saya others with sword already drawn out. Hasso,Kendori,Iwanami,Uroko gaeshi Tsubame gaeshi,Suigetsu-to ,Kasumi-ken are some examples of the names of the forms in this set.

4.Daisho kyo - 8 forms both are in tate hiza
This set seems to involve take downs ,locks & throws. Where Uchidachi doesn't appear to draw his sword & tries to grab either shidachi or some part of shidachi sword and Shidachi reacts by using take downs ,locks & throws. It seems most of the forms here seem to involve "flooring" the enemy.


5)Daishyo tachizume - 7 forms 1-4 tate hiza 5-7 standing. This set seems to involve uchidachi as grabbing Shidachi and not drawing his sword. From the photos in the book Uchidachi is required to do standing ukemi with sword (The Technique Tombo Gaeshi requires it)

f)Tsume no kurai - 7 forms
This set seems to be similar to set 4 & 5 ( Daisho Kyo and Daisho Tachizume)

That's all the info I have of the "other" curriculum in Muso Shinden Ryu.


Cheers everyone ,

* P.S Earl, I am guessing the book "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki" is out of print? I was wondering when the book was released was it for private circulation or was it avalible to the public? Just curious before I "hunt" for it :)

[Earl Hartman]

Joanne:

According to the information I have, the line of the Shimomura-ha that ends with Nakayama Hakudo is as follows (pronunciation of personal names are guesses):

Yamakawa Kyuzo (Hisakura) Yukio
Shimomura Shigeru Ichijo
Hosokawa Yoshiaki
Nakayama Hakudo (Hiromichi)

Yamakawa S. is listed in Masaoka S.'s book as the redactor of the curriculum I listed in my first post which began this thread.

Guy Power has sent me a photo of what I believe is the title page of a book by Nakyama S. which shows Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of Muso Shinden Ryu and shows Hosokawa S. as the 17th headmaster. (I can't post it, unfortunately, since it isn't in a web-compatible format.) If we go by this, we must assume that Nakayama S. received the entire curriculum from Hosokawa S., and that this would include all of the paired forms. It also indicates that there was/is an opinion that the Shinden Ryu existed prior to Nakayama S.'s popularization of it as MSR. The question is whether this is really a distinct and separate ryu or just another name for the tradition of iai in Tosa in general. Masaoka S.'s book has a picture of Nakayama S. performing one of the paired kata.

Regarding the relationship of the Eishin Ryu of Tosa and MSR, I would agree with you except that I would reverse the relationship and say that MSR is the Shimomura-ha of Eishin Ryu rather than saying the the Shimomura-ha is MSR. Just a quibble, but I think it gets the relationship better.

In any case, I think that Masaoka S.'s relationship with Nakayama S. must be seen in the light of Nakayama S.'s status as the inheritor of the "other" branch of Tosa Eishin Ryu. One of the things that distinguished Masaoka S. was his zealous research into the history, development, and techniques of Eishin Ryu. I guess that some people saw this as somehow inconsistent with his status as a recipient of the Kongen no Maki from Oe S., who passed on the Tanimura-ha rather than the Shimomura-ha, but it is safe to assume that Masaoka S. saw no conflict.

My personal opinion, based on my admittedly amateurish and limited research up to this point, is that there must have existed some tradition that referred to the body of techniques as "Shinden Ryu". This is attested to by the fact that Yamakawa S.'s documentation uses that name. How far back that tradition goes I don't know. Nakayama S. took this name and chose two new ideograms, "Mu" (Dream) and "So" (Thought) to replace the "Mu" (Without) and "So" (Twin), or "Peerless", that Oe S. used. They are read the same phonetically but have different meanings. I think that it was his way of honoring the origin of the tradition and, at the same time, making sure that he was not in conflict with it. Still, it seems clear that MSR is Shimomura-ha under a different name and as interpreted by Nakayama S. Thus, I think it is a safe bet that the paired kata shown in the MSR iai books you have cited all derive from the same source, however they are named and organized.

Also, just one comment/correction: I think that what you have listed as "Tachida no Kurai" is actually pronounced "Tachiuchi no Kurai".

The Armchair Historian,
Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-27-2000 at 07:31 PM]

[Earl Hartman]

Joanne:

To the best of my knowledge, Masaoka S.'s book was privately published posthumously and is out of print. All I have is a Xerox copy of it (drat!). Sorry.

[ghp]

Joanne,


Guy Power has sent me a photo of what I believe is the title page of a book by Nakyama S. which shows Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of Muso Shinden Ryu and shows Hosokawa S. as the 17th headmaster.

The page to which Earl refers is what looks to me to be an "eimeiroku" -- disciple's name book. The below is a slightly incomplete translation. The parenthetical numbers represent each line beginning at the far right (gyo-me):

(1) bottom half of line: he lists the ryu as "Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho."

(2) 17th Generation [Dai Jyunana Sei] Hosogawa Yoshimasa

(3) 18th Generation Nakayama Hakudo

(between 2 & 3) Shinan Soden [teaching certificates]

(4) MUSO SHINDEN RYU

(5) Battojutsu Heiho no Shugyo wo .....

(6) Nakayama Hakudo, Hanshi [his "signature block"]

(7) Jikimonjin [direct disciple] Kimura ....

(8) Nakayama Hakudo [signature] & Seal

An interesting note: line 5 has the kanji for "Battojutsu" but Nakayama inserted "furigana" [a phonetic helping syllabary] to make it read as "Iai"

If interested, and you want a jpeg, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

Regards,
Guy

[ghp]

Joanne,


Guy Power has sent me a photo of what I believe is the title page of a book by Nakyama S. which shows Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of Muso Shinden Ryu and shows Hosokawa S. as the 17th headmaster.

The page to which Earl refers appears to be an "eimeiroku" -- disciple's name book. The below is a slightly incomplete translation. The parenthetical numbers represent each line beginning at the far right (gyo-me):

(1) bottom half of line: he lists the ryu as "Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho."

(2) 17th Generation [Dai Jyunana Sei] Hosogawa Yoshimasa

(3) 18th Generation Nakayama Hakudo

(between 2 & 3) Shinan Soden [teaching certificates]

(4) MUSO SHINDEN RYU

(5) Battojutsu Heiho no Shugyo wo .....

(6) Nakayama Hakudo, Hanshi [his "signature block"]

(7) Jikimonjin [direct disciple] Kimura ....

(8) Nakayama Hakudo [signature] & Seal

An interesting note: line 5 has the kanji for "Battojutsu" but Nakayama inserted "furigana" [a phonetic helping syllabary] to make it read as "Iai"

If interested, and you want a jpeg, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy.

Regards,
Guy

[Joanne Miller]

Hello Earl,

Sorry for cutting and pasting lines. I can't figure out how to do that nice quote box thing :)

Quote :Earl Hartman
"Also, just one comment/correction: I think that what you have listed as "Tachida no Kurai" is actually pronounced "Tachiuchi no Kurai". "

Ooops ! :) Thanks for your correction Earl ! Actually I am not sure how to read the kanji the proper way with reference to the names of the set.

Quote: Earl Hartman
"To the best of my knowledge, Masaoka S.'s book was privately published posthumously and is out of print. All I have is a Xerox copy of it (drat!)"

I should say Xerox or not it's real precious ! Which MJER/MSR line of Iai doesn't want to hear what Masaoka Sensei has to say ! You're really lucky to have BOTH the book and having the chance to train personally under him ! :)

Quote Guy Power:
"If interested, and you want a jpeg, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you a copy"

Absolutely lovely ! I will be sending you as well as Earl ( by email) a Jpeg of something about Muso Shinden Ryu as well.

Cheers everyone,

[Mike Henry]

Hi all,

This is my first post here so be gentle... :-)


Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Joanne:

According to the information I have, the line of the Shimomura-ha that ends with Nakayama Hakudo is as follows (pronunciation of personal names are guesses):

Yamakawa Kyuzo (Hisakura) Yukio
Shimomura Shigeru Ichijo
Hosokawa Yoshiaki
Nakayama Hakudo (Hiromichi)

Yamakawa S. is listed in Masaoka S.'s book as the redactor of the curriculum I listed in my first post which began this thread.

Guy Power has sent me a photo of what I believe is the title page of a book by Nakyama S. which shows Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of Muso Shinden Ryu and shows Hosokawa S. as the 17th headmaster. [Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-27-2000 at 07:31 PM]

I was led to believe that Nakayama was the 16th headmaster of the Shimomura-branch of the MJER. Before Yamakawa I have Matsuyoshi which is after Oguro (11th Grandmaster). The lineage that I have is therefore as follows:

11. Oguro Motoemon Kiyokatsu
(last before Tanimura-ha/Shimomura-ha split)
12. Matsuyoshi Teisuke (Shinsuke) Hisanari
13. Yamakawa Kyuzo Yukikatsu (Yukio)
14. Shimomura (Tsubouchi) Moichi (Seisure) Sadamasa
15. Hosokawa (Gisho) Yoshimasa (Yoshiuma)
(After Oe Masamichi Shikei)
16. Nakayama (Hakudo) (Yushin) Hiromichi

It seams that my information is incorrect, and I would like to compare it with any that you all have. What are the missing grandmasters, and where do they fit in this puzzle?

I am also interested in birth/death dates of any Grandmasters you have.

Thanks,

-Mike

[Dan Harden]

Earl

No surprise that you came up with another interesting post.

I have "0" knowledge of MJER so I would like to ask some outsiders questions.

1. I have read and been told by those involved in MJER that the curriculum is as diverse as those teaching it. If this is true (I would have no way of knowing whether or not it is) How or where did it separate?

2. Several fellows I know of; including novice to more advanced, claim they have never seen any lengthy study of Tachiuchi no Kurai. Just the occasional form. One fellow I spoke with in N.Y. said his teacher didn't know any of the paired forms and had never seen them. How common is that in the "overall picture?"

3. Thanks to Peter Boylan at Mugendobudogu,
www.budogu.com (an excellent source for Budo materials from someone in Budo) I have an excellent book on the subject, showing the Tachiuchi no Kurai and more. Another question I have is If the knowledge is still out there, are their teachers pursuing the cogency of the system by learning these forms from "live" experts in the field? Are their any experts in the field still alive who know the whole art?

I appreciated your teachers overall comments about Iai. Particularly regarding Iai not being enough and also where the placement of the Tachiuchi no Kurai belongs in the syllabus. Is there any sort of ongoing effort to organize (re-organize?) the school to prevent the loss of the curriculum.

thanks
Dan

[Earl Hartman]

Dan:

I have not trained formally in MJER for many, many years. My teacher died of a heart attack in the middle of a kendo practice less than a year after I started studying with him, and his group was taken over by another teacher who, naturally, started to teach things his way. This caused such resistance on our part that after a while one of the senior teachers sat us all down and gave us the "the King is dead, long live the King" lecture, that is, "he's dead, we've got a new teacher, get used to it". I was disheartened by this, and although I continued for about another year, I did not continue with iai formally after I went back to Japan for the 2nd time. Looking back, I think this was a mistake, but I just ddin't want to change what my original teacher had taught me. Put it down to youthful stubbornness and, I would like to think, devotion to my original teacher. In any case, whenever I call my senpai back in Japan he lets me know in no uncertain terms that since I learned from the best teacher in Japan, I should not be swayed by the opinions of others and should do my best to do what my teacher taught me. Thus, I do not train with anyone and just try to do my best to remember what he taught me while referring to his book. A little stuck up, perhaps, but when I do the iai that he taught me I feel like I'm talking to him, in a strange way, and so I don't want anyone interfereing in the conversation.

As I have discovered from reading, conversations on e-budo, conversations with my teacher's successor, etc., the following picture of MJER emerges:

There is no single "official" inheritor. Mastery of the ryu is through the receipt of the "Kongen no Maki" (The Scroll of Origins), the MJER version of menkyo Kaiden. Oe S. gave the Kongen no Maki to at least 3 people that I know of: Hogiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeru S., and my teacher, Masaoka Katuskane S. As it has been explained to me, there is no higher certificate than the Kongen no Maki; thus, all recipients of the Kongen no Maki are fully accredited inheritors of the ryu and are thus qualified to carry it on and pass on the Kongen no Maki in their turn. Thus, it seems to me that the many branches of MJER established by legitimate Kongen no Maki holders must all be considered legitimate, regardless of differences in interpretation of the waza.

However, the establishment of the ZNIR (Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei) lent prestiege and stature to the main line of the school in Kochi, Shikoku, headed by Hogiyama Namio S. Iwata Norikazu S. is considered by many to be one of the most authoritative exponents of this line, apparently. This line still continues through the activities of the ZNIR, but I do not know the present headmaster.

My teacher left Shikoku to attend the Budo Senmon Gakko when he was about 20 or so. By this time he had been training with Oe S. on a daily basis for about 6 years or so, I guess. He regularly returned to Kochi to train with Oe S., and received the Kongen no Maki from Oe. S in the 3rd year of Taisho, I think. He moved to Kanazawa city in Ishikawa Prefecture and worked as a teacher. After the war, he returned to Shikoku, was a farmer in the deep country for a number of years, re-integrated into the iai community after the ban on budo was lifted, and then returned to Kanzawa and taught iai. He was recruited by the ZNKR (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei) to head their iaido department, which was established a couple of years after the ZNIR. I met him in 1972, and incidentally, thus became acquainted with my wife, who was one of his students. She received some instruction in the paired forms, but, it was not that much, apparently, and she has forgotten it all, unfortunately.

The other issue is the influence of Nakayama Hakudo S. Nakayama S. was from Ishikawa Prefecture, where Kanazawa is located, and Masaoka S. established a relationship with him and, so far as I can tell, learned a lot about the Shimomura-ha of MJER, which Nakayama S. had inherited and popularized as the Muso Shinden Ryu. I get the impression from my reading that this relationship did not sit well with Oe. S's "inner circle" back in Shikoku, (Oe S. passed away in the 3rd year of Showa, 1928) who apparently considered Masaoka S. to be too much of a maverick, whose "pure" Oe S. Tanimura-ha iai had been "diluted" by his association with Nakayama S. and his interpretation of Shimomura-ha iai. In any case, if what I have been told is true, it does seem that in some way that Masaoka S's iai combines elements of both lines. Also, when Masaoka S. formed the iai department within the ZNKR, a number of MJER swordsmen who had been associated with the ZNIR followed Masaoka S. to the ZNKR, which certainly must have caused additional friction.

I have been away from Japan and out of the iai loop too long to know if there is any concerted effort on the part of the various branches of MJER/MSR to cooperate on reestablishing coherent instruction in the paired forms. Masaoka S.'s successor in Kochi still teaches some of the forms, primarily the Tsumeai no Kurai. Miura S. of the Jikishinkai includes the Tachiuchi no Kurai in his curriculum. It appears that parts of this curriculum are still known in some way in MSR circles. Other than that, I just don't know.

It would be great if someone actually did make a real effort to save this part of MJER. But you would have to talk to somebody like Hyakutake san to get a better picture. I really don't know what is going on, and I do not have anything more than a passing phone relationship with Masaoka S.'s successor.

Remember, the foregoing is my own interpretation of the information I have received. Don't go around quoting it as gospel.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

[Earl Hartman]

Mike:

I will have to go back and look at what sources I have. All of the lineages I have seen are different. All I can say is that what I gave is what is in my teacher's book.

[Mike Henry]

Thanks Earl!

Yes it is difficult to find accurate information about these things. I appreciate your efforts.

To add a litte to your post to Dan, it seams that there was some interchange between the Tanimura-ha and Shimomura-ha branches of the MJER. Though I don't know how it could have been tolerated, especially considering the times.

For example, I have two sources regarding Oe Masamichi as being the 15th Headmaster of the Shimomura-ha branch before resigning (to Hosokawa Yoshimasa) and becoming the 17th headmaster of the Tanimura-ha branch.

We have Nakayama Hakudo apparently studying the Tanimura-ha tradition under Morimoto Tokumi (who studied under Goto Magobei, 16th Tanimura-ha Headmaster), switching to the Shimomura-ha branch, and studying for Oe Masamichi (before resigning?) and Hosokawa Yoshimasu.

I don't know if there are any special stories or reasons that surround the actions of these two personalities, though it seems odd to me that it would be so "easy" to change branches, and become the others headmaster. Or practise one and then the other. Does this indicate that there wasn't much technical difference between the two branches at the time? Or was it that there were mainly social/political differences?

It is interesting what you write about Masaoka Kazumi also studying with Nakayama Hakudo, and Oe Masamichi not liking it. Apparently, both Oe Masamichi and Nakayama Hakudo were both men of unusual size and strength for the time. Oe Masamichi was Nakayama Hakudo's (considerable) elder, having partaken in the "Clam Gate War" of 1865-67. Nakayama Hakudo was already established in Kendo, but was much younger. Nakayama apparently disagreed with Oe Masamichi's methods, thus causing a personality clash...

It would be interesting to know more about the early days of the MSR, the relationships of the Shimomura-ha and Tanimura-ha branches, and the manoeverings of Oe&nbspMasamichi and Nakayama&nbspHakudo at the time. Anybody?

Omoshiroi, ne? :-)

-Mike

[Earl Hartman]

Mike:

My understanding is that the Tanimura ha and the Shimomura ha existed side by side in Tosa under the authority of the ruling clan of the fief. In any case, Eishin Ryu was strictly for Tosa clansmen and was not taught to outsiders. I don't know if the "split" was quite as strict as people think. Two lines of one school, existing side by side in the same fief, indicates to me that there was probably a good deal of communication between the two lines.

Anyway, my understanding is that Nakayama S. approached Oe S. and asked to be instructed but that Oe S. refused since Nakayama S. was not from Tosa and, being an outsider, was not qualified to learn. I have not done enough research into this as yet, but I think that at this time Nakayama S. must have already been skilled in Shimomura-ha iai.

I do not know how Oe S. himself viewed Masaoka S's relationship with Nakayama S. It seems fairly clear from what I have read, however, that Masaoka S. was not considered part of the inner circle of Tosa Eishin Ryu after Oe S.'s death. This seems to be based on 4 things: 1) Masaoka S. left Kochi city to go to Kyoto to attend the Budo Senmon Gakko when he was about 20. He studied kendo, naginata, and kyudo there. He was apparently something of an attraction with the other students, since most of them knew little or nothing about iai. Thus, while Masaoka S. was studying in Kyoto, and after he moved to Kanazawa, a new group grew up around Hogiyama S., of which Masaoka S. was not a part, since he no longer lived in Kochi; 2) some people say that Masaoka S. left Oe S.'s direct and exclusive tutelage at too young an age and thus did not really penetrate to the essence of the waza; 3) When he formed the iai department of the ZNKR, some of the Tosa MJER swordsmen elected to leave the ZNIR and ally themselves with Masaoka S.; and 4) Masaoka S.'s relationship with Nakayama S., which, I guess, rendered his iai somewhat suspect in the eyes of some. Regarding 2), Masaoka S.'s book indicates that he returned to Kochi whenever possible to continue to receive instruction from Oe S. Also, I think I got my dates wrong; I think Masaoka S. received the Kongen no Maki in the 13th year of Taisho, not the 3rd year.

I know that Oe S. was uncommonly large and strong and that he made his living as a gekken instructor. Some speculate that his gekken experience led him to reorganize the MJER curriculum and harmonize the style of his iai waza with gekken principles. This could account for the fairly stright ahead posture that characterizes the ZNIR interpretation of the waza that I have seen. Still, this seems to be a matter of degree, and everybody seems to do it somewhat differently.

Anyway, all I really know for sure is that Masaoka S. received his Kongen no Maki directly from Oe S. himself. Of this there is no doubt. That's good enough for me.

[Mike Henry]

Thank you, Earl, for your excellent answer! :-)

-Mike

[ghp]

Mike,


I was led to believe that Nakayama was the 16th headmaster of the Shimomura-branch of the MJER

That's the general perception. I don't have the quotes in front of me, they go something like this, "I never heard Nakayama sensei refer to himself as the 16th headmaster. However, his name is inscribed thusly at the Hayashizaki Iai Shrine."

What Earl was talking about is the photograph of a page from what looks like Hakudo's eimeiroku -- student name book. It definitely is Hakudo's signature, and it definitely states that since before such and such a date (20th century) the art was known as "Hayashizaki Muso Shinden Ryu Battojutsu Heiho" -- or similar words. When I get to the office tomorrow I'll e-mail you the scan and my translation ... if you want it. :)

The text goes on to list Hosokawa Yoshimasa as the 17th headmaster and Nakayama Hakudo as the 18th headmaster. The major "bold" print gives the style as Muso Shinden Ryu Battojutsu -- and he uses furigana ("helper" syllabary) so that the reader understands "Battojutsu" should be pronounced as "IAI."

Then it lists the "jikimonjin" [direct pupil] by name (I forgot), and it ends with Nakayama Hakudo's signature and seal.

Interesting stuff, eh?

Regards,
Guy

[Earl Hartman]

Hey, Guy, thanx. Was waiting for you to stick your head in here.

Also, I was looking through the "Mugai Ryu Iai Anyone?" thread and one of the posters said that MJER was taught to the ashigaru in the Tosa han but that Mugai Ryu was taught to the big shots.

What's up wid dat? This is the second time I've heard that MJER was somehow on some lower level (you won't get me to say who the other person who said this was, so don't even ask. I'll just say that it's nobody you know).

Anyway, sounds like the typical "my ryu is better than your ryu, so there" stuff. You know anything about this?

[ghp]

Earl


Anyway, sounds like the typical "my ryu is better than your ryu, so there" stuff. You know anything about this?

What? I gotta target drawn on my forehead or something? Uh-uh! You aren't baiting me; no sir-ee.

Nope. Not me. Uh-uh.

Actually, that post was the first time I heard of it. There is probably some misinterpretation/misunderstanding somewhere along the line, cuz I just can't see that "Ryu X" is for the men-at-arms only, and "Ryu Y" is for the knights only.

Quite possibly, I could understand the different Han having their own preference in which ryuha its soldiery would study .... I wonder if some Samurai G3 (Training & Operations Officer, Corps level) really laid out such training requirements, separating the "officers," "noncommissioned officers," and "enlisted men" of ancient Japan.

"Enquiring minds want to know"

Regards,
Guy
(Normans Rule, OK!)

[Seishin]

Hello Guys!

Yes, I am the one who mentioned that MJER was taught to the Ashigaru in Tosa! Don't bite my head off okey!!! It was in no way meant as "My Ryu is better than your Ryu" - in fact I have been studying MJER (Tanimura-Ha) for 12 years under my current teacher Kai Kuniyuki Sensei (8th Dan Ju-Hanshi and direct student of 22nd MJER Tanimura-Ha Soke Ikeda Seiko Sensei). Kai Sensei, as mentioned in the Mugai Ryu thread is also a senior figure in Mugai ryu being a senior student of the 15th Soke, Shiokawa Hosho Sensei. However, with the risk of being misunderstood, I mentioned that Mugai Ryu was taught to the higher levels of Samurai with the Tosa clan. This is apparently what has been described in one of Nakagawa Sensei's books and it is a fact that Mugai Ryu was "imported" into the Tosa area by the Daimyo - Yamanouchi Toyomasa in the early 1700 (and maybe senior officers as well? - I dont know) through their tuition by Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi during their stays in Edo. As mentioned in the Mugai Ryu thread (as far as I remember) there exist today a lot more detailed information about Mugai Ryu exponents of the past due to the fact that a lot more was detailed about the "higher-level" Samurai than others. I consider it likely that all Samurai in the Tosa area had knowledge of and access to MJER teaching. It is also a fact that MJER is older than Mugai Ryu - but do you know when and how MJER ended up in Tosa (since Hayashizaki was not from Tosa I believe?) - I would be very interested in learning more about the early history of MJER in Tosa.

Mugai Ryu is also tracing its roots back to Hayashizaki through the following line: Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu - Tamiya Heibei Shigemasa (Tamiya Ryu) - Miwa Gempei - Yamamoto Matabei - Asahina Mudo - Wada Heisuke Masakatsu (Shin Tamiya Ryu) - Taga Jikyoken Morimasa (Jikyo Ryu) - Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi (Mugai Ryu).

Best regards

Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan, Denmark
www.seibukanbudo.org

[Mike Henry]

Hi Guy,


What Earl was talking about is the photograph of a page from what looks like Hakudo's eimeiroku -- student name book. It definitely is Hakudo's signature, and it definitely states that since before such and such a date (20th century) the art was known as "Hayashizaki Muso Shinden Ryu Battojutsu Heiho" -- or similar words. When I get to the office tomorrow I'll e-mail you the scan and my translation ... if you want it. :)
Oh, yes please! (Dribble, dribble... :)) I definitely would like to have a copy. I'm curious as to the difference here; most official sources list Nakayama as being the 16th headmaster, and then we have Nakayama himself signing a document stating that he would be the 18th headmaster. Who are the missing headmasters?

Then it lists the "jikimonjin" [direct pupil] by name (I forgot), and it ends with Nakayama Hakudo's signature and seal.

Interesting stuff, eh?
Absolutely! Better than any detective story... :)

Thanks a lot, Guy, for shedding some more light on this matter, and thank you (in advance) for the scan.

-Mike

[hyaku]

Iwata sensei has two Kongen no Makki handed down from two of Oe Sensei's direct students. It seems that the Kongen no Maki awarded to Oe Sensei's direct students are worded differently. But of course without seeing and translating copies no one will ever be able to compare them.

It is still called Kongen no Maki. He has awarded Kongen no Makki to 70 year old Terao Yukiteru sensei of Saga city and I think Morinaka sensei of Matsuyama.

I have asked Iwata Sensei why Oe sensei gave up the Shimomura-ha and joined Tanimura. No one sems to know why.

Iwata sensei always stresses that no way is wrong and that there are different interpretations of techniques.He stresses respect for lineage and sees no point in is mixing them. “Y” sensei's Nukitsuke "X" sensei's chiburui etc.and trying to separate it from ZNKR Seitei Kata.

I thought I had put his lineage chart on my webpage.Now its up.. Please follow this link

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Lineage.html


Regards Colin Hyakutake

[ghp]

Mike,

Your profile will not allow e-mails to be sent to you. Please e-mail me and I'll send the scan. I don't have the capability of posting an image on e-budo, so you will have to be content for now with my less-than-adequate translation:

[pardon the ellipses, they were necessary to place some text in the appropriate location]

From Nakayama Hakudo’s Eimeiroku
===========
(1) Tensho nen kan ikou no bunken, Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho.
Since after the Tensho period [1573-1592] it was recorded as Muso Shinden Hayashizaki Ryu Battojutsu Heiho.

(2) Dai jyunana sei Hosokawa Yoshimasa senshi.
17th Generation, teacher Hosogawa Yoshimasa.

(2.a) ......................................................Shinan Soden
........................................................teaching certificates

(3) Dai jyuhachi sei Nakayama Hakudo senshi.
18th Generation, teacher Nakayama Hakudo

(4) MUSO SHINDEN RYU

.......(i.......a.......i)
(5) BATTOJUTSU HEIHO no SHUGYO wo YOURAN
ABSTRACT of the STUDY of BATTOJUTSU (iai) TACTICS

(6) Nakayama Hakudo, Hanshi [his "signature block"]

(7) Jiki-monjin Kimura Hara....
Direct student, Kimura Hara…

(8) Nakayama Hakudo [signature] & Seal

Notes:

a. Senshi is an older form of sensei. It means "previous teacher."

b. Line 5 has the kanji for "Battojutsu" but Nakayama inserted "furigana" [a phonetic helping syllabary] to make it read as "Iai"
===============

[ScottUK]

I hope no-one minds me bumping this thread - I thought that the people who have joined E-Budo since late 2001 would appreciate it.

One of the most interesting threads on here, IMHO...

[Sam(urai)]

I hope no-one minds me bumping this thread
I would firstly like to thank scott for bringing this back to the forefront otherwise I would never have seen it.

Secondly Earl and all other contributors... This has been one of the most informative threads that I have encountered on any MA forum.

I originally dipped into E-budo for a quick look (should have been working on an important drawing for a customer :rolleyes: ) but by the time looked up again from reading this thread it was almost lunch time!!???!!??!!

WOW!!! E-Budo rocks! I thank you all for sharing your knowledge and findings so that the uneducated people (like myself :p ) get the opportunity to obtain a greater knowledge of the arts we hold so dear.

I've alraedy said it too many times, but thank you all for this great thread.

[ScottUK]

It is in the rules, dear boy. E-Budo for knowledge, Kendo-World for sarcasm. :D

[Ken-Hawaii]

Yes, a most interesting discussion! I'll add my thanks to Scott. I had been looking for something like this using the e-Budo search function, but have certainly never seen this particular thread.

I am training under Maeda-Sensei in Tanimura-ha MJER, but he has added four waza that I don't see in the original post: Batto ho no Oku, consisting of Zen Tekki Gyaku To, Tateki To, Koteki Gyaku To, & Koteki Nukiuchi. These waza may have been included in one of the other sets - does anyone have the detailed breakout of each waza in each MJER set listed?

Also, Erik Tracy posted a lineage chart for MJER a few months ago. Sorry for having to post it sideways, but e-Budo is a tad picky about the image size & shape. His research definitely comes up with other names for MJER senseis than are listed in this thread. Earl, do you have any easy way to either confirm or deny what's in this chart>

[George Kohler]

How about this?

[Erik Tracy]

Here's a link to the chart Ken has referenced that I've hosted on my webpage:
http://erikt.cts.com/Pictures/MJER-Lineage-v5.gif

Hopefully, everyone's browser will allow you to view it 'full size' and be legible.

And, as I've stated before, the chart I put together has NO agenda, other than to pictorially portray the names and connections within MJER as I have piecemealed them together from posts here, other webpages, and from books I've read.

ANY and ALL corrections or suggested changes for accuracy are *most welcomed*!

Yours in budo,
Erik Tracy
Jikishin-kai

[Ken-Hawaii]

Hmm. I didn't check my message after posting it, because I saw the lineage chart in my preview. Sigh. I guess that e-Budo didn't like the way I did something. Yes, George, that's the same one I tried to post.

Can someone resolve this listing with what is in the thread?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Erik, about 75% of what you've accumulated in this chart I have been able to confirm independently. [At least I assume it was independent, as I have no idea where you found your material :p .] I'm still looking for the rest of the story. But this thread has some real differences, which is why I want to find out more.

Maybe it's because I'm an engineer that I appreciate charts like Erik's, both for the inherent information & for the "connectedness" that I feel for MJER when I'm able to connect another piece of the historical puzzle. And I do know that Maeda-Sensei found the chart so personally interesting that he had me update it to add him to the Tanimura-ha line, along with our dojo.

[George Kohler]

Sigh. I guess that e-Budo didn't like the way I did something.

Ken,

Read under your post. I removed it because having two of them next to each other (one being sideways and the other one upright) was an eye sore.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Thanks, George. I'm enough of an eyesore myself....

[Charles Mahan]

I am training under Maeda-Sensei in Tanimura-ha MJER, but he has added four waza that I don't see in the original post: Batto ho no Oku, consisting of Zen Tekki Gyaku To, Tateki To, Koteki Gyaku To, & Koteki Nukiuchi. These waza may have been included in one of the other sets - does anyone have the detailed breakout of each waza in each MJER set listed?



These waza are relative new comers to the MJER curriculum. Some branches seperated from the Seitokai line before these waza were added and so do not have them. My understanding is that while it is a new set it is made up of older waza. The kihon will certainly be familiar to anyone familiar with the rest of the MJER curriculum.

I didn't see the first 7 forms of Batto Ho listed in the thread either.

They are:

Junto Sono Ichi
Junto Sono Ni
Tsuigekito
Shato
Shihoto Sono Ichi
Shihoto Sono Ni
Zantotsuto

[Erik Tracy]

What little information I have on Eishin-ryu batto-ho is that they were formulated by Kono Hyakuren S. (20th soke ) at the request of the Dai Nihon Butokukai in 1939 to teach Naval Academy cadets.

It was formally called "Dai Nippon Battho ho" and supposedly only practiced by students in the ryu-ha of Kono S.

That's about all I know...not much....

Erik Tracy
Jikishin-kai

[Earl Hartman]

I can't confirm or deny anything on the chart, really. It is hopelessly confusing, what with all of the the Kongen no Maki holders establishing their own lines and whatnot, and I've already posted everything I know. You guys are going to have to carry on without me.

Masaoka S. was my teacher and he got his Kongen no Maki from Oe S. That's it for me, basically. I really can't say anything one way or the other about the other teaching lines.

It would be nice if the MJER people could get together and rationalize the curriculum, but I don't see it happening, unfortunately.

[Erik Tracy]

message deleted

[Douglas Wylie]

It would be nice if the MJER people could get together and rationalize the curriculum, but I don't see it happening, unfortunately.

The wording here implies that it is currently irrational, which is not the case.

If you mean every "ha" to teach exactly the same thing, I dont think that will happen either.

I think people develop relatively small stylistic differences. Every now and then you have a truly superb teacher, and following his passing, his students so fiercely loyal that they are loathe to abandon his teaching of these stylistic differences. I would imagine this is the case for you and your teacher.

My seniors leave me with the impression that the heads of the different factions of MJER get along just fine. In other words they are not at war, or they dont seem to find the devisiveness that people tend to attribute to them. I think they all have more in common than any differences you may be able to find. I believe they might bicker from time to time, but so does everybody, that doesnt mean they dont get along.

As for the Batto ho, I was told by my sensei's teacher that Eishin ryu contained hundred(s) of older techniques that are "lost". He said that Kono sensei took some of the "lost" techniques and arranged them into the Batto ho no bu. I asked if any of the older techinques are still done and he said "hmmm, maybe soke knows". (This means that these "lost" techniques existed as of 1975 when Kono sensei died. Did they get passed on? I think they did.)

I find there to be a very outward face to Eishin Ryu. A bunch of commonly known stuff, like seiza and tatehiza. Then there is stuff that they dont talk about and is done in, if not secrecy, definately just among higher rank people. For example, Bangai. I would hardly even know it exists except for the fact it is written in a book. Sensei demonstrated it once, and the seniors practice it amongst themselves. Same for tachiuchi no kurai, anyone under 4th dan probably will never see it practiced. I am just finding out a little more of the scope of the MJER system as it exists today and it encompasses more than I knew about.

[Earl Hartman]

Hm. It seems I've been misunderstood.

I don't think MJER irrational either, nor do I think that there is that much friction between the leaders of the different groups. There are a lot of different lines, but that is not a problem for me personally. It might be a problem for those who want to establish once and for all, dammit!, who is the "one and only true" leader of MJER.

Ain't gonna happen. People should stop wasting their time. I like the plethora of different interpretations, and I find that the attempt to standardize leaches all of the individuality and fun out of the art. If you take a look at some of the old pictures of the different nukitusuke of some of the older teachers, they all do it differently. I like this, and I think it should stay that way. I saw a picture of Mori Shigeki S. doing nukistuke, and rather than facing the enemy straight on as it is done nowadays by most of the the ZNIR people I've seen, his body was rotated almost 90 degrees away from the front. Masaoka S. also advocated opening the body to the left in this fashion, but even he was not that extreme. So even back then people did it differently. (Personally, I prefer this style of nukistuke, but whatever.)

My concern was mainly for the preservation of the paired forms. These are all completely documented in Masaoka S.'s book, and it is obvious that the various lines of the MJER and the MSR still practice them in some form or other. Masaoka S. emphasized that he thought that the paired forms were vital to maintaining the martial integrity of MJER. It would be nice if people could get together and do their best to keep them extant. That's really all I mean. Of course, the fact that these forms are practiced primarily by the upper ranks and that a lot of lower ranked people are not familiar with them is not surprising.

As for the rest of it, things change. People should get used to it.

[Kim Taylor]

One head? Well as far as I know one fellow's got the papers and whatnot. Do I follow him? No. Have I ever practiced that style of MJER? Yes. Do I practice it now? No. Is this a problem for me? No. MJER is big and even small arts don't stick together forever. As Earl said, get over it.

Tachi Uchi? I have, in the course of my training, learned 3 separate and distinct versions of 10 kata. Even have notes lying around somewhere I'm sure. So what do I practice? The ones in Mitani's book of course, it's big and on my shelf and so I don't have to go tear the house apart looking for my notes. I'm not too fussed if the other versions disappear into history.

Nor am I too worried that "martial arts get lost" since they get lost all the time. What's the inherent value of a martial art folks? The true value lies in the practice not the existance of the techniques in someone's notebook.

Want to help perpetuate small and rare martial arts? Check out the U.G. seminars, we've got one coming up in July that features Kyudo, Todaha Bukoryu naginata, Uchidaryu Tanjo (Tokyo and Fukuoka styles to be discussed!) Mugairyu Iaido, Hyoho Niten Ichiryu, maybe some Katori Shinto ryu, and likely more fun stuff. I don't expect more than our usual 30-40 participants. http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/gsjsa_ma.htm so you even get personal attention.

Important cultural assets?? Last year we brought over a Japanese swordsmith for 5 days of hands on instruction... lost big money on that one since we only had 10 or 12 people interested, rather than the 40 or 50 I was prepared for. Oh well, not the first time I've overestimated the number of people who care enough about this stuff to actually show up. Won't be the last either.

This stuff exists as long as someone practices it. When nobody does, it disappears and nobody notices (because nobody is practicing). The world keeps spinning regardless.

Kim Taylor

[Earl Hartman]

Kim:

Who's doing the kyudo part of your program in July?

[Kim Taylor]

Kim:

Who's doing the kyudo part of your program in July?

Phil Ortiz from NYC has done the kyudo training for the last several years.

Kim.

[Earl Hartman]

OK. I guess he is affiliated with the Shibata Kanjuro group?

[Douglas Wylie]

So what do I practice? The ones in Mitani's book of course, it's big and on my shelf and so I don't have to go tear the house apart looking for my notes.

I know that, in the Seitokai, sensei learns them from the soke and teaches them to the appropriate level people. They, in turn, practice them with great fervor, regularly.

[Kim Taylor]

OK. I guess he is affiliated with the Shibata Kanjuro group?

Yes, here's the information page for that part of the seminar http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/gsjsa_kyudo.htm

Kim.

[Charles Mahan]

If you take a look at some of the old pictures of the different nukitusuke of some of the older teachers, they all do it differently. I like this, and I think it should stay that way. I saw a picture of Mori Shigeki S. doing nukistuke, and rather than facing the enemy straight on as it is done nowadays by most of the the ZNIR people I've seen, his body was rotated almost 90 degrees away from the front. Masaoka S. also advocated opening the body to the left in this fashion, but even he was not that extreme.

That sounds a lot like Ikeda-soke who also turns a fair amount judging by the videos I've seen and the teachings attributed to him.

[Earl Hartman]

Charles:

I have a tape of Ikeda S.; his iai looks a lot like Masaoka S.'s iai, a lot more like it than most of the ZNIR stuff I have seen. What was interesting watching his tapes is that he shows a lot of the old stuff, which is what I learned, and then explains how it has changed. From his running commentary, it seems that many of the changes have been instituted to make competitions easier to judge or to "clean up" the techniques and make them more "dignified" (not exactly sure what this means, but whatever). This has "necessitated" slowing down the waza so that each element can be clearly seen; the actual martial application of course, would require that these things be done as quickly as possible. This makes the individual elements hard to see and therefore hard to judge. Not so sure that sits too well with me, but whatever. The differences in Ukenagashi and Yaegaki in particular were quite striking.

It doesn't surprise me to hear that Ikeda S. turns on the nukistuke. It is my understanding that one of his Kongen no Maki is from Mori Shigeki S. (who introduced Masaoka S. to MJER when they were both in middle school.).

Kim:

Yeah, I figured the kyudo must have been from the Shibata group. I read the writeup and I just want to point out a couple of things: the definition of modern kyudo as "Zen archery" is quite incorrect and has led to a great deal of confusion here in the West. For a discussion of this, people who are interested can go here:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5556&page=1&pp=15

This writeup also cites a book called "Kyudo: The Essence and Practice of Japanese Archery" by Onuma and DeProspero" as being a good basic introduction to kyudo. This book is indeed the best book about kyudo presently existing in the English language, so that part of the statement is true. However, the author of the blurb seems to indicate that the book is about a school of kyudo related to the style practiced by Shibata Kanjuro. Onuma Sensei held a very high credential in the Heki Ryui Sekka-ha, a traditional style; however, his book does not discuss the Sekka-ha. It only deals with the modern cognate style of kyudo promulgated by the All Nippon Kyudo Federation.

[Kim Taylor]

I'm sure the folks who read and worry about such things will appreciate the clarification Earl.

Kim Taylor

[Hellsten]

I hope no-one minds me bumping this thread - I thought that the people who have joined E-Budo since late 2001 would appreciate it.

One of the most interesting threads on here, IMHO...

Thanks Scott, I think also this is a good thread. I would like to add some information or questions to collect more bits and pieces for my study of Tosa Eishin Ryu.

Best wishes
Pasi Hellsten
www.iaido.fi

[Hellsten]

As for the Batto ho, I was told by my sensei's teacher that Eishin ryu contained hundred(s) of older techniques that are "lost". He said that Kono sensei took some of the "lost" techniques and arranged them into the Batto ho no bu. I asked if any of the older techinques are still done and he said "hmmm, maybe soke knows". (This means that these "lost" techniques existed as of 1975 when Kono sensei died. Did they get passed on? I think they did.)


Hmmm… As Oe Masamichi (17th generation master) reorganised the sets and techniques and left us the system we now know as Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu (Seiza-no-Bu, Tatehiza-no-Bu, Okuiai Tatehiza and Tachiwaza sets as well as Iaikata), I don’t really expect there are any extra techniques alive today. Just those which Oe left us for training.

I am under the impression that before Oe’s time there were more sets, more techniques and more kaewaza or variations - too many for the average trainee. In the old days those who trained were samurai (soldiers) who had time to train as professionals, but already in Oe’s time there were people who were training but did have not enough time to learn all. The problem nowadays is that even what we now know is too much for most people if we put emphasis on quality, not quantity.

I suppose some groups still have some extra kaewaza they are training, usually after people have reached such an advanced level that they are able to train them (i.e. it does not confuse their basics). I am reading right now the book “Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, The Iai Forms and Oral Traditions of the Yamauchi Branch”. All the above mentioned sets are included and also some kaewaza to various techniques, but also some special techniques preserved by MJER Yamanouchi-ha teachers are mentioned. Even in Yamatsuta Sensei’s book (Muso Shinden Ryu) there are some extra forms described in the Oku-iai set. The problem with these is that it is not possible to tell whether these techniques have really been taught or whether somebody has read old books and revived some techniques. Anyway, Kongen no Maki includes all that has really been taught.

Our Takada Sensei (from Muso Shinden Ryu) has told us that there are techniques that are usually taught only to the person chosen to be the next successor. That would mean that if some soke happened to die before he had chosen his successor, some techniques disappeared forever.

I don’t know the exact history of Batto-ho, but when I was in Hokkaido in 1995 to train with Ishigaki Sensei (from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), we went through even the Batto-ho Kihon no kata and Oku no kata. I understood they were created for Naval Officers by Kono Hyakuren. I never heard it said that they are based on some old lost stuff. It is my understanding that Seitokai students do them, but not all those who are members of ZNIR. Neither do Iwata Sensei’s Roshukai members practice them as they are only concerned with koryu forms passed down by Oe Masamichi, not with any modern stuff (with the exception of Oku-iai Bangai no kata and Iaikata, which are compiled by Oe himself).

Best wishes
Pasi Hellsten
www.iaido.fi

[Hellsten]

Yes, I am the one who mentioned that MJER was taught to the Ashigaru in Tosa! ... I mentioned that Mugai Ryu was taught to the higher levels of Samurai with the Tosa clan. This is apparently what has been described in one of Nakagawa Sensei's books and it is a fact that Mugai Ryu was "imported" into the Tosa area by the Daimyo - Yamanouchi Toyomasa in the early 1700 (and maybe senior officers as well? - I dont know) through their tuition by Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi during their stays in Edo. Best regards
Flemming Madsen
Nippon Budoin Seibukan, Denmark
www.seibukanbudo.org

[Quote] ghp wrote on 03-07-2001, 10:17 PM
There is probably some misinterpretation/misunderstanding somewhere along the line, cuz I just can't see that "Ryu X" is for the men-at-arms only, and "Ryu Y" is for the knights only.[Quote]

I do not share Mr. Madsen’s opinion that Mugai Ryu was taught to high level officers and the ashigaru were left to learn Eishin Ryu. I asked Iwata Sensei about this when I was in Japan last year at an Ozu seminar, and he said he had never heard about this. As he is a leading historian of the Tosa Eishin Ryu I believe him. There may still be a grain of truth in this Mugai Ryu story: as you may know, Mugai ryu was originally a kenjutsu art and iai was adopted later from Jigyo Ryu. (http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_laitinen_0402.htm).

After the battle of Sekigahara Tokugawa Ieyasu dispossessed the lord Chosokabe of Tosa and gave that territory to the Yamanouchi family. The goshi or low ranking samurai stayed there and the Yamanouchi officers rose to power. So there must have been some friction between those two groups.

In Ryotaro Shiba’s book “Drunk as a Lord” (a historical novel) it is mentioned that Yamanouchi Yodo learnt Mugai school swordsmanship and Hasegawa school iaido fencing. In addition, I have copies of some pages from the book “Kochi-ken Jinmei Jiten”, a non-fiction book, where some famous people from Kochi are shortly described. There is a mention of Yamamoto Takuji: trained kendo under Ono-ha Itto ryu master Kono Sasaburo and Mugai ryu master Kawasaki Zenzaburo. In addition, Tosa Eishin ryu iai under master Oe Masamichi. Yamamoto Harusuke studied Mugai ryu swordsmanship under Kawasaki and iai under Oe. Oe Masamichi studied swordsmanship under Mugai ryu master Kawasaki Zenzaburo and iai under Shimomura Moichi and Goto Masaaki (but I have seen it also mentioned elsewhere that Oe studied Shinkage ryu kenjutsu).

It may have been that Mugai ryu kenjutsu was taught to only high-ranking Tosa samurai, but iai from Hasegawa Eishin Ryu was taught to all. There were both low and high-ranking samurai, who were “top guns” in Tosa Eishin ryu Iai.

Best wishes
Pasi Hellsten
www.iaido.fi

[Kim Taylor]

Remove that last bracket for the EJMAS article folks.

http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_laitinen_0402.htm

Kim Taylor

[Douglas Wylie]

I don’t really expect there are any extra techniques alive today. Just those which Oe left us for training.

Iwata sensei has a list of waza on his website that goes further than any I've seen. I'm assuming these must be some of the "lost" techniques.

http://www.151a.net/iai/tech/waza.html

Gaibutsu no Daiji 6 waza
Jyoui no Daiji 14 waza
Gokui no Daiji 11 waza



I don’t know the exact history of Batto-ho, but when I was in Hokkaido in 1995 to train with Ishigaki Sensei (from Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu), we went through even the Batto-ho Kihon no kata and Oku no kata. I understood they were created for Naval Officers by Kono Hyakuren. I never heard it said that they are based on some old lost stuff.


I asked sensei directly about the Batto ho no bu and he answered in no uncertian terms.

[Chidokan]

The website is actually run by one of Nishimoto sensei's students, and the list is taken from a photocopy of an old book in his possession, which belonged to Mori Shigeki sensei. As a matter of interest, Mori Shigeki s. also wrote a book, but these waza are not included in the descriptions, so can be assumed 'lost' probably before his time, as not worth keeping by Oe sensei in his rationalisation project. It has come up in conversation however that some of these are so close to waza still done today that the rationale of keeping them did not make sense, although some are done as nameless kae waza, such as a combined left and right mae as a substitute for To Zume (I think!need to check this is the right waza it substitutes for...) or the variants on uke nagashi... As the names are only a reminding reference for waza rather than a specific description, we will never know what they were... why not say, tanto, or unarmed combat waza? I have heard rumours of unarmed combat however... ;)

[Andrei Arefiev]

Pasi directed me back to this thread a while ago, but it's only now that I got the time to post here.

Regarding the three sets of waza mentioned above, they are mentioned with short descriptions/explanations in one of the books by Kyo Ichisuke. The book is reviewed here: http://ejmas.com/tin/2006tin/tinart_Klens-Bigman_0406.html

If anyone would like to translate the descriptions, I'd be happy to send you this part of the text.

[Douglas Wylie]

My Japanese aint that great but I will try and translate it.

[Andrei Arefiev]

My Japanese aint that great but I will try and translate it.

Here is the brief overall explanation that he gives. I hope it shows allright:

　「外物之大事」のうち、現在の奥伝・奥居合の太刀名義に見ることができないのは、「遂懸切」「雷電」「霞」の三つであるが、「遂懸切」は「外物之大事」「上意之大事」が統合されている時期の伝書には存在しており 、現在夢想神伝流の一部に伝承される「追掛斬」と同様であろう。「雷電」「霞」はすでに述べたとおりである。
　「上意之大事」のうち、伝承されていないと思われるのは「風返」「手之内」「輪之内」「十文字」の四つである。残念ながら、似たような太刀名義も存在しない。
　一方、夢想神伝流に伝承されている奥伝・奥居合のなかで、長谷川英信流の「外物之大事」「上意之大事」に見ることができないのは「信夫」「袖摺返」「両士引連」「請流」の四つである。「信夫」は「夜之太刀」、「 袖摺返」は「賢之事」、「請流」は「弛抜」という太刀名義で後期の伝書に見ることができ、「両士引連」も共に存在している。
　「請流」は大江正路の創始によるものであるとする説があるが、それよりも先に存在していたため、おそらくは若干の工夫を加えたものだと推測される。
　残る「極意之大事」は、心法的技法であるため、口伝される場合が多かったようであり、現在ではやや判然とはしないが、伝書類・口伝等から、そのおおよそは知ることができる。

He also lists the Gaibutsu-no daiji and Joi-no daiji, and gives an annotated list of Gokui-no daiji. If anyone is interested, it is available here (it's a Unicode text file, not much bigger than the abstract above, which it also includes): http://www.eishinkai.ru/forums/kyo.txt

[Chidokan]

I just noticed a comment about the amount of body turn in Shigeki sensei's mae. Shimomura ha was his main 'style' of MJER (he awarded Iwata sensei his menkyo kaiden in shimomura ha rather than tanimura ha MJER). This strong body turn is one of the distinctive features. If you watch the video closely you can also see the saya is inverted during nukitsuke, and is not put back until noto. There are some interesting stylistic differences between the two ha I was shown some years ago now, which I practise as a sort of kae waza to keep them in my mind as it were...

[Eric Spinelli]

I am reviving this thread for a number of reasons. First, I think it is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking discussions on MJER on the internet. I hope its revival gives many of us a good second read through and a first for those who haven't been around so long. Second, I would like to address two different points that were brought up throughout this discussion.


...

9. Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu, 5 forms bo vs. bo, 8 forms sword vs. bo

...

In any case, since this curriculum was put together by a headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, I don't know how it was/is viewed by adherents of the Tanimura-ha. However, Oe S. was trained in both lines of the school, which co-existed side-by-side in Tosa, so I presume that all practitioners were familiar with it. In any case, from what I know at the present time, it would appear that the yawara, bojutsu, jojutsu, and torinawa parts of the curriculum are either a) lost, b) not commonly practiced today, or c) are advanced parts of the curriculum known to only a few advanced practitioners.

Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu was known and practiced by at least one MJER Kongen no Maki holder as recently as one generation ago (20th generation). It has not, as far as I can determine, been passed to the current generation in its entirety.

While this doesn't answer much about the 12th through 16th generations of the Tanimura-ha, it does seem to imply that Oe sensei saw fit to pass on Itabashi Ryu (regardless of its source) along with his renamed and reorganized MJER. This begs the question, however, as to why the other arts were lost and when.


Iwata sensei has two Kongen no Makki handed down from two of Oe Sensei's direct students. It seems that the Kongen no Maki awarded to Oe Sensei's direct students are worded differently. But of course without seeing and translating copies no one will ever be able to compare them.


Yamakoshi Masaki, in his book Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu: The Iai Forms and Oral Traditions of the Yamauchi Branch, offers one explanation for the discrepancies in the wording of the Kongen no Maki.

He states, on page 5:


There used to be some difference in content and writing style between the certificates issued from teacher to pupil among fellow retainers of the Yamauchi family, and those presented by a retainer to a person of higher rank. The Yamauchi branch still preserves the latter. But the reason is evidently to protect the traditional writing style and not the feudal doctrine behind it.

So we have a theory for both the original reasons for discrepancies as well as to why this was continued past the Meiji Restoration.

In addition, on page 4, the following example is given:


When looking at the picture mentioned above [Kongen no Maki presented to Yamauchi Toyotake], one may notice that Yamauchi Toyotake's name is written with much bigger characters than Oe Masamichi's. The difference in size is probably due to Oe Masamichi's respect towards Toyotake, being the grandson of Yamauchi Yodo (Toyoshige), and his pride of having served the latter as a Tosa samurai during the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

There is also mention that Yamauchi was not taught kendo because by Oe because it would have involved striking a lord.

While this is biased information, coming from inside the Yamauchi-ha with respect to Yamauchi-ha documentation and history, it is likely the most evidence we will ever get until, as Colin mentioned in his quote reprinted above, two different copies are translated and compared.

Sincerely,
-Eric

[Earl Hartman]

I just saw that this thread had been brought back from the dead, so I would like to mention that I made a mistake upthread: I said I had a video of Ikeda Sensei doing iai; this was a mistake. The video I have is of Iwata Sensei.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I am not sure how folks might feel about this but I share it as a kind of contribution to the discussion from the other side of the Eastern Sea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYREBgIMDSI

CHOSON SEBUP is a very old set of sword movements originally performed with a To, or single-handed sabre. With the influence of Japanese sword, most old forms such as this and BON KUK GUM BUP have been revised to be executed using the SSANG SOO DO (lit: "two-handed sabre") not altogether different from the Japanese katana.

In Korean KUM-BUP (lit: "sword method") these movements are supported by mastery of the form first and then by validation by cutting targets. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Fred27]

Dear Folks:

I am not sure how folks might feel about this but I share it as a kind of contribution to the discussion from the other side of the Eastern Sea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYREBgIMDSI

CHOSON SEBUP is a very old set of sword movements originally performed with a To, or single-handed sabre. With the influence of Japanese sword, most old forms such as this and BON KUK GUM BUP have been revised to be executed using the SSANG SOO DO (lit: "two-handed sabre") not altogether different from the Japanese katana.

In Korean KUM-BUP (lit: "sword method") these movements are supported by mastery of the form first and then by validation by cutting targets. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Very nice outfit! Thats an officers combat-armour isn't it?

[glad2bhere]

Yes. In this particular case the authenticity is probably a bit more reliable (circa 14th or early 15th century). My understanding is that the person performing the swordwork is also an actor in Korean films and is considered quite a stickler for historic detail. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Chidokan]

Eric,
I have seen two of the scrolls Iwata s. has issued to his students, Terao and Morinaka senseis... They are also different in content. Morinaka s' is a lot longer and contains more waza,(Morinaka s. has full sets of TUNK, Terao s has only Oe s' 7 kata) although both detail the lineage of the ryu exactly. Signatures and dates were in the same format, with names and stamps as per you would expect. It is rumoured that others have them but not sure who, although I can guess... maybe a few drinks will get you a sight of one without travelling too far??!!??:laugh:
A side note on 'earning' them was that it would take a japanese guy about 12 years to hit menkyo status. I suppose we dont have a chance being westerners!

One of my students is in Japan at the moment so I have asked her to pin on the map where all the previous sensei lived. Obviously a lot will be in the Kochi area, but what I am hoping to determine is the opening up of the school to 'outsiders' and how it spreads from there to us. I think it will be an interesting exercise, as it may be the final link in how it got to the UK, USA etc...

[bushikan]

Eric,
I have seen two of the scrolls Iwata s. has issued to his students, Terao and Morinaka senseis... They are also different in content. Morinaka s' is a lot longer and contains more waza,(Morinaka s. has full sets of TUNK, Terao s has only Oe s' 7 kata) although both detail the lineage of the ryu exactly. Signatures and dates were in the same format, with names and stamps as per you would expect. It is rumoured that others have them but not sure who, although I can guess... maybe a few drinks will get you a sight of one without travelling too far??!!??:laugh:
A side note on 'earning' them was that it would take a japanese guy about 12 years to hit menkyo status. I suppose we dont have a chance being westerners!

One of my students is in Japan at the moment so I have asked her to pin on the map where all the previous sensei lived. Obviously a lot will be in the Kochi area, but what I am hoping to determine is the opening up of the school to 'outsiders' and how it spreads from there to us. I think it will be an interesting exercise, as it may be the final link in how it got to the UK, USA etc...

Mr. Hamilton

I your post in refernce to the different densho has sparked a question. It is my understanding the Iwata earned densho in Shinmomura ha and Tanamura ha. You said that Morinaka's mokuroku contained more waza than Terao's. You specifically mentioned the Tachi Uchi no Kurai （太刀打之位）being listed, however do you remember if （位之取り）Kurai Tori or （詰之位) Tsume no kurai are listed? Is it possible that Morinaka earned Shinmomura ha densho?. As these are sets of kata listed in Shinmomura ha's (MSR's) mokuroku and not in MJER's (so I've been told). It is my understanding that these kata are practiced as kaewaza in MJER and are therefor not listen in the mokuroku. It is also my understanding that when a individual earns Menkyo (Kogen no Maki) in Shinmomura ha the also earn other items (which I won't name online). I'm also currious as to if, MJER Kogen no Maki recipients recieve the same objects.

regards

[Chidokan]

I know Morinaka sensei has tsume ai no kurai as I have seen him do the set! It was pure luck I saw them both within a few days about 8 years ago, as I visited both seperately and was shown them as part of a 'history lesson' when we were discussing lineage etc. You will have to forgive my ignorance on what was on what as both scrolls were only out for a minute or so!

I would be very surprised if the paired work was not included in both ha....there was only one dojo, and everyone practised together, so one isnt going to be hidden from the other! I can certainly ask when I go over in April, as I find it a relevant question, but I feel I will just get a strange look! It has not come up in previous discussions as a 'single ha' method, especially as I was quite determined last time in making sure the Shimomura ha information I had was correct. Iwata s. only teaches us Tanimura ha as our regular instructional methods to make sure we dont mix the ideas etc up. This is quite important to him, so a few days for me on just Shimomura was a bonus.

He also makes it clear that although MSR has its roots in Shimomura, the 'modern' MSR has changed considerably since its conception, a lot of this being done by the founder himself anyway as he added other influences from his experiences and as his iai developed. This can be seen from watching old footage and the last videos taken before his death.
Also as far as I am aware, no-one actually practises Shimomura ha as their 'mainstream' practise, (possibly using the Tanimura ha as the kae waza), so it is likely in future that MSR will change/develop further away from the root methods, unless MSR students decide to focus on this. They need to be quick, most sensei with shimomura ha kongen are all above 80!

Gift giving is usual in Japan, as I guess most of us know, so receiving something when you qualify for kongen makes sense... think of it as a birthday present, so it will be something a little more special than the usual gift exchange....I do something similar for my senior students when they leave university and leave my dojo as a thankyou for their hard work.

[bushikan]

Thank you for your reply,



I would be very surprised if the paired work was not included in both ha....there was only one dojo, and everyone practised together, so one isnt going to be hidden from the other! I can certainly ask when I go over in April, as I find it a relevant question, but I feel I will just get a strange look!

I'm sorry this is my mistake in wording. What I meant was that the Kata are listed differently in the Mokuroku not that the techniques were somehow hidden from the other. It is my understanding that the ryu-ha's mokuroku is something like this:
Tanamura ha
Tachi Uchi no Kurai(Kata)
Tsumeai no Kurai
Daishozume
Daishotachizume
Daikendori
Shinmomura ha
Tachi Uchi no Kurai
Tsumeai no Kurai
Kurai Tori
Daishozume
DaishoTachisume
Tsume no Kurai
Daikendori

This is not to say that Shinmomura ha has more kata its just that MJER practices the kata encompassed in Kurai Tori and Tsume no Kurai as kaewaza to the katas to which they relate to, rather than seperately as MSR does (though more than probally my source material is wrong). Thank you for pursuing that question upon your return to Japan in April.



Also as far as I am aware, no-one actually practises Shimomura ha as their 'mainstream' practise, (possibly using the Tanimura ha as the kae waza), so it is likely in future that MSR will change/develop further away from the root methods, unless MSR students decide to focus on this. They need to be quick, most sensei with shimomura ha kongen are all above 80!

Nakayama Zendo sensei, Saeki Soichiro sensei, and Ogawa Sensei all created 剣聖中山博道先生伝承武術保存会(The Society to Perserve the Teachings of Nakayama Hakudo Sensei) in 1966. This is reconised by the NKK(Nihon Kobudo Kyokai) and NKSK (Nihon Kobudo Shinkyokai), and was heavly supported by Nakayama Zendo Sensei prior to his death however, however there are other preservation societies which preserve the methods of thier teachers, for example: the Haga dojo preserves Haga Junichi's methods, Danzaki's preserves his, the Sanshinkai preserves Mitsuzuka's, and so forth..... Everyone tries regardless of how much of the curriculum they now teach or how they teach it, but politics have a bad tendoncy to destroy even the best of intentions or ideals.

Again thank you for the information you provided

[Chidokan]

Sorry, didnt get that much detail, although I will find out...

I know of the Nakayama society and have also met a few of the japanese members at one of Iwata s' seminars. It's one of the reasons we got the shimomura 'lecture' as he shouted at them to improve their techniques! Not just us lowly godans who got it in the neck, for a change the hachidans got blasted for teaching too much and not practising enough!:D Nice to know no matter how good you get, there is always someone about to tell you to work harder, who is better than you and can back it up with info!!!