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tgall
15th July 2005, 13:36
Hello,

has anybody tryed to do tameshigiri with the Kama, like they do it at Iaido? In the Kama book of Obata it is demonstrated with bamboo.
I would like to know some of your experience with it.

Sincerly

Thomas Gall

Shorin Ryuu
15th July 2005, 19:13
I haven't done anything hardcore. Just slicing up cardboard boxes after they've looked at me wrong and subjugating the wild grass and weeds in my back yard. But I do think it is important for people to at least feel how the kama cuts because it helps you develop the proper form.

Nathan Scott
15th July 2005, 20:46
Hi all,

The pair of kama Obata Sensei used to test cut with were hand forged by a swordsmith he was working with, Kobayashi Yasuhiro. Unfortunately, they were stolen years ago. This set of kama were a reproduction of a certain type of kama that I can't remember off the top of my head. But obviously, your average set of kama purchased over the internet is not going to stand the stress of cutting hard targets like bamboo. Most kama blades rivet/bolt to the haft at the point of contact, whereas the pair that Obata Sensei used had the nakago (tang) sunk into the haft several inches, providing them with the strength necessary for cutting hard targets.

This photo gives you an idea:

http://www.shinkendo.com/images/cover2.jpg
June, 1987

And from the book:

http://www.shinkendo.com/images/kamabk.jpg

Regards,

tgall
17th July 2005, 11:19
Hello all,

I had trained kama for a long time. While I had trained I often thought could I really cut with it, is it a proper technique, how could I know when I' ve never done a cutting test. So I would like to try Tameshigiri with it, and I don't wanna start blindly doing it.

@Nathan

I' ll know this types of kama, they are called "Natagama" or war-kama, and I found that similiar kinds of kama like Obata used them are still used as farming tools for cutting bambo or sugar cane.
http://www.dick.biz/cgi-bin/dick.storefront/42da2e1c000617fc273f50f3360905b7/Catalog/1188
Could you send me a scan of the article from Obata in Inside Karate?


Does anybody know, if normal kama like they are show at the homepage above, or you could by at an Okinawan hardware store or at Shureido are useabel for a cutting test?

Thanks

Thomas

Troll Basher
17th July 2005, 14:34
Firstly, Kama were not made as a “weapon” but rather a farming tool and later turned into a “weapon” and are not very good for tameshigiri. The kama as a tool was made for cutting fairly soft plants and grass. Because Kama can’t cut through bone like a katana can the kama as a “weapon” were used more for hacking out chunks of limbs or cutting veins and arteries.

Shureido doesn’t sell Kama with “live blades”. They sell wood replicas and ones with unsharpened metal blades.
For “live blade” kama your best bet would be to go to a hardware store in Japan or Okinawa. They have several different types from the flimsy home use type to the more industrial types that have sturdy handles and blades. Some are sharp enough to shave the hair off your arm. I have pruned the trees in my yards as part of my “practice” so they do work for limited tameshigiri.
A major weak point is the way the handle and the blade joined. If used repeatedly they can break. Also, the blades are not made from very good metal so they chip easily.

tgall
17th July 2005, 22:23
Hello Russelt,

at my last visit to Okinawa at the world turtanament they had sold kamas with sharpend blades.
I' ll know that the mayor origins of kamas was the argicutlure use. But the idea behind the Tameshigiri was the proper cuting, and how i could find out if it works?
How could you know if that way of the technique to cut works if u never really have cut something?
What do u think about the Kamas shown at the homepage if posted before?

Sincerly

Thomas Gall

E.elemental
18th July 2005, 01:43
I also think that Shureido sells live blades, anyway I have had a pair earlier. Concerning the link you posted this thread may be of some help http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22705 The heavy duty Kama that were in your site they could probarbly be good for testcutting. As mentioned earlier the weak point is were the blade and handle are joined. Perhaps there is only one way to find out how it stands up to the test? You could buy one and carefully start cutting, then increase the amount of stress put on the weapon, then you know. Its either that or order some special-made Kama from some company. Dont know if that was much to an answer though... :)

Troll Basher
18th July 2005, 02:01
Hello Russelt,

1) at my last visit to Okinawa at the world turtanament they had sold kamas with sharpend blades.
I' ll know that the mayor origins of kamas was the argicutlure use. But the idea behind the Tameshigiri was the proper cuting, and how i could find out if it works?
How could you know if that way of the technique to cut works if u never really have cut something?
What do u think about the Kamas shown at the homepage if posted before?

Sincerly

Thomas Gall

Russelt??

1) During my last trip to Shureido in March of this year I inguired about sharp kama.....they said they don't sell them. Maybe they stopped selling them??

Shureirdo's website: http://www.karatedo.co.jp/shureido/english/e_kobudo/e_kobu.html

Here is the US Shureido website:
http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/kama.html
They show the kama as having a live blade here.

TimJurgens
18th July 2005, 06:52
As my good friend Robert pointed out the best place for good Kama is a hardware store. I bought a very nice pair for 997 Yen each or about 18 USD. Cheaper ones were available at less than 4$ each. Why pay the extra mark up to Nakasone-san in Shureido if you don't have to.

As for cutting with Kama we had an excellent class in Tameshigiri from Esuke Akamine Sensei's wife when we were there for the world torunament. There were about 10 of us from various locations, UK, US, Israel, India, and Switzerland staying in the Koto Dojo on the 3rd floor of the building that serves as our head quarters. I woke the crew up at about 8 in the moringing to inform them that "Anma" was giving a special Akamin Icho Kama lesson in the parking lot. There were a lot of weeds that had grown along the edges and she was cleaning them out herself with a single Kama, a task that probably would have taken her about 2-3 days depending on the heat of the summer sun. With all the eager hands we were finished by 1 PM and got a lot of good pratical advice on how to cut things with Kama.

If you really want to learn how to cut with a Kama however go work a sugar cane field during harvest.

Troll Basher
20th July 2005, 01:26
1) As my good friend Robert pointed out the best place for good Kama is a hardware store. I bought a very nice pair for 997 Yen each or about 18 USD. Cheaper ones were available at less than 4$ each. Why pay the extra mark up to Nakasone-san in Shureido if you don't have to.

2) As for cutting with Kama we had an excellent class in Tameshigiri from Esuke Akamine Sensei's wife when we were there for the world torunament. There were about 10 of us from various locations, UK, US, Israel, India, and Switzerland staying in the Koto Dojo on the 3rd floor of the building that serves as our head quarters. I woke the crew up at about 8 in the moringing to inform them that "Anma" was giving a special Akamin Icho Kama lesson in the parking lot. There were a lot of weeds that had grown along the edges and she was cleaning them out herself with a single Kama, a task that probably would have taken her about 2-3 days depending on the heat of the summer sun. With all the eager hands we were finished by 1 PM and got a lot of good pratical advice on how to cut things with Kama.

3) If you really want to learn how to cut with a Kama however go work a sugar cane field during harvest.


1) Nakasone-san is a nice guy but he does love money. If you want a shock then go price some of the heavy bags on his site. A couple of those bags go for US $1,000!!! Sorry but my crappy punches and kicks don’t warrant a $1,000 bag.
2) Tim, I remember you telling me this story a while back. It's a great example. Using kama for “work” is an excellent way to become familiar with the tool/weapon.
3) There’s the Marine in you coming out again Tim ;)…..always wanting to put people to work!

Thomas,

If you execute the kama kata properly it will show the proper way to actually “cut” with it and use it as a “weapon” instead of just a “farm tool”. I know most people just read that and thought “Duh! No kidding!”.
However, never look at just the obvious things when doing the kata and you will understand what I meant by the above statement. You should be thinking things like “why is my hand here?”, “why is it held this way and not that?” and so on.

tgall
20th July 2005, 08:26
Hello Robert,

sorry for the name mistake, writing to you the last time.



If you execute the kama kata properly it will show the proper way to actually “cut” with it and use it as a “weapon” instead of just a “farm tool”. I know most people just read that and thought “Duh! No kidding!”.
However, never look at just the obvious things when doing the kata and you will understand what I meant by the above statement. You should be thinking things like “why is my hand here?”, “why is it held this way and not that?” and so on.

I don't think that just kata training could teach me how to do a good cut. Thinking about the kata how you describe it, is important for the basic understanding, but this is more theoretically. It give you the idea how it could work, but not if it would work.
I had talked to some Iaidoka about tameshigiri and their experience with it, and they told me, that the first time it was not so easy to do the cut good, and the had trained their technic a lot.
And if you are good at kata, that don't mean that you are a good fighter.
Kata is important for me, but if the application of the technices are missing like cutting or fighting, then you don't get the whole understanding of it.
But in this topic the oppinions would spread fare out.

Thomas

Troll Basher
20th July 2005, 08:56
Hello Robert,

sorry for the name mistake, writing to you the last time.



1) I don't think that just kata training could teach me how to do a good cut.
2) Thinking about the kata how you describe it, is important for the basic understanding, but this is more theoretically. It give you the idea how it could work, but not if it would work.
3) I had talked to some Iaidoka about tameshigiri and their experience with it, and they told me, that the first time it was not so easy to do the cut good, and the had trained their technic a lot.
4) And if you are good at kata, that don't mean that you are a good fighter.
5) Kata is important for me, but if the application of the technices are missing like cutting or fighting, then you don't get the whole understanding of it.
But in this topic the oppinions would spread fare out.

Thomas

1) There is a saying in Japanese “Learning how to swim on a tatami”. Meaning you have to actually do it in realistic circumstances to get the full benefit and understanding. Kata will teach you how to use the weapon to cut…..for example different ways of cutting, cutting from different angles and directions plus blocks and parries … etc….Like my friend Tim said…. “If you really want to learn how to cut with a Kama however go work a sugar cane field during harvest.”……If you want to learn how to use it as a weapon then understand the kata AND how to actually cut with it on some object.
2) Kata is only as basic as you make it. Kata is not theory it is based on actual experiences that have been put together. Done blame the kata because you can’t or are unwilling to understand it.
3) Nakamura Taisaburo of Toyama Ryu was a good friend of my sword teacher….he said basically what I just wrote in my #1 response.
4) Again….same as #1
5) This is were you seem to be missing the importance of kata since that is precisely what they are…..as I said before. Kata is a collection of fighting techniques.

Shikiyanaka
20th July 2005, 16:37
Hi Thomas,


And if you are good at kata, that don't mean that you are a good fighter.

And if you are NOT good at kata, that doesn't mean that you are a good fighter either. :)

Will you be in Klatovy?

tgall
21st July 2005, 00:47
Hello Andreas,

I will be at Klatovy the 2nd week. Please give my books to Rainer.

Thomas

Nathan Scott
26th July 2005, 02:40
Hi,

I don't know if "war kama" is the literal translation of natagama, but you are right, that was the name I was forgetting. Natagama ( 鉈鎌 ) translates literally as "hatchet sickle". I think this name simply implies that the tang extends deeply into the haft, though obviously this would be the type of kama you'd want in a war if you were planning on bringing kama. There is a woodblock print in the front of the "Kama" book by Obata Sensei that shows Ogurusu (the farmer that killed Akechi Mitsuhide with a bamboo spear) with a natagama of this style in his belt.

I only bring all this up because I have a common Japanese "field hatchet" that is also referred to simply as a natagama, and cut bamboo with it a bit on one of these MPEG's:

http://www.tsuki-kage.com/shizan.html

As far as the article goes, I'm afraid that if I still have it, it is packed away some place. I've got a lot going on right now, so don't have the time to dig for it. Perhaps someone else has a copy, or the issue is available on the net somewhere?

FWIW, I agree with your point about tameshigiri. If a pair of kama that are intended to be adapted as weapons can't cut withstand cutting medium to light bamboo or tatami, how could it withstand blocking, hooking and pulling, or cutting?

Regards,

TimJurgens
26th July 2005, 14:53
The Japanese word for war is senso

johnst_nhb
26th July 2005, 19:31
My late teacher once picked up my large Shureido kama and laughed saying "oh, war kama"!

Said purely to make fun of how heavy they were (to him)...lol.

:)

Shorin Ryuu
31st July 2005, 05:43
FWIW, I agree with your point about tameshigiri. If a pair of kama that are intended to be adapted as weapons can't cut withstand cutting medium to light bamboo or tatami, how could it withstand blocking, hooking and pulling, or cutting?


My opinion (note I lack the massive amounts of experience that everyone else around here seems to have) is that the human body is not medium bamboo or tatami. Unlike Japanese katana, the kama are merely adaptations to weapons rather than being real weapons, so of course they won't stand up to repeated stress of that nature.

As far as blocking, hooking, pulling and cutting, the rather small nature of kama dictates that anything you do with them to block can't be a direct meeting of force (something we all probably agree with on empty hand and not being the "ideal" for weapons usage either). Therefore techniques with the blade obviously rely upon the sharpness of that blade. You probably won't be lopping off heads with kama, but you can do incredible damage to soft tissue areas or vulnerable spots along joints or simply fingers. As accidents in dojo across the world demonstrate, it doesn't take much to seriously hurt yourself with kama even when you aren't even trying to. They won't last long if you "hack" with them or repeated use against targets requiring a strong blade (like tatami), but they will work quite well against the human body at least once.

Note: I haven't ever tried cutting bamboo or tatami with regular kama (or super deluxe premium forged killer kombat kama for that matter), so I'm assuming like everyone else they wouldn't last with repeated usage or maybe not even the first time (I simply don't know)?

Nathan Scott
31st July 2005, 20:05
Hello,

Fair enough. People get injured with training weapons of all types all the time. Many of the commercial kama being sold out there probably are excellent for training.

FWIW, tatami was determined long ago to be the consistency of flesh, and bamboo the consistency of bone. That is why they are used as cutting mediums in Japanese arts. I don't know anything about Okinawan weapons, but I have seen them demonstrated, and have noted that w/ kama, cutting/controlling the neck or other parts of the body or opponents' weapon are some of the most exploited assets of the kama. My point about cutting was two fold. One, that the techniques that were formulated to be used for kama should be realistic, meaning if you are going to apply force against the edge side of the blade, causing stress at the connection between the blade and haft, the weapon should not fail. If cutting people in half is not an intended function of the kama, then yes, it shouldn't be expected to withstand similar testing.

The second thing is that in the weapon arts I have knowledge/experience in, attacking the opponent's weapon is not an uncommon tactic. In weapons that have blade/handle joints (spear, naginata, etc.) attacking this connection is one of the best areas to attack, since this is often the weakest part of the weapon. Thus, these areas ("tachiuchi") are usually reinforced in hopes of withstanding cutting force and attacks.

I don't know the kata in Okinawan weapons, but I would imagine a well placed blow from nuchaku or bo would likely break the joints of typical modern kama without a problem. If these types of kama really aren't expected to be very strong, then disregard my comments. But if they are, then I suspect most modern kama would fail easily.

FWIW,

Shorin Ryuu
4th August 2005, 16:58
Nathan Scott,

Good info. My opinion is that kama were simply not meant to be carried onto the battlefield and of use only as a contingency. Therefore, you are very correct in stating most all kama out there would tend to break easily when hit along the joint with something else. Their usual enemy ended up being vegetation, anyway. I've always envisioned and practiced blocks away from the joint area unless I was specifically engaged in moving the weapon away rather than receiving force directly.

As far as the whole tatami thing goes, I think where I was trying to go with that is, as you stated, the point was not to cut people in half. Simply put, a large rolled tatami seems to be a heck of a lot to cut through with kama. I would imagine any real "deep cuts" with the kama would be to very soft tissue areas (belly and whatnot) or thin areas (throat, fingers, etc.). Cuts in other targets such as the arm perhaps would be satisfactory even if they didn't cut clear to and through the bone.

To sum it all up, it's simply a matter of degree. Since it wasn't primarily a weapon, it wouldn't be able to cause as much damage as a well-constructed weapon. At the same time, it could cause "enough damage" to make it worthwhile.

Nice site, by the way.

tgall
8th August 2005, 19:57
Hello,

if the Nichogama was not for fight on a battlefield, or just as the last contingency, so what do say about Kusarigama? This was made for fighting?
So was it strong enough for cuting to a body?

Thomas Gall

Trevor Johnson
8th August 2005, 20:13
Hello,

if the Nichogama was not for fight on a battlefield, or just as the last contingency, so what do say about Kusarigama? This was made for fighting?
So was it strong enough for cuting to a body?

Thomas Gall

One thing to look at is which kusarigama. I've seen the kusarigama used by two different ryuha, one demo by Meik Skoss and one by Ellis Amdur, and they're differently shaped and used differently. One has a straight, double-edged blade and a handguard just under the blade, and is used for stabs, throat cuts, suppressing the arms, etc, once the chain has caught the blade or the person. The chain is longer and used for catching arms and swords. The other I didn't see as much of, but the chain was shorter and used more for swinging, had a curved blade, and the kata ended with tying up the opponent with the chain and going for the throat, and then a spectacular sweep on the end to avoid having 4 techniques in the kata. (Which is inauspicious to the Japanese. 4 techniques in the kata, 4 of the same technique in a row with no variation in between, either is bad. ) Neither one really went for a stab to the body, it was more joints and throat, though I should point out that the koryu tend to train as if you are wearing armor, so striking the body's often a nono anyway.
Amdur's comment on the kusarigama is that it is not a battle field weapon, due to the flailing. He's had the experience of sparring with a flail vs a bokken, and having a lot of fun until the chain got caught in a bush. Revenge time for the bokken! His comment was that kusarigama were more of an experiment during peacetime.

tgall
8th August 2005, 21:26
One thing to look at is which kusarigama. I've seen the kusarigama used by two different ryuha, one demo by Meik Skoss and one by Ellis Amdur, and they're differently shaped and used differently. One has a straight, double-edged blade and a handguard just under the blade, and is used for stabs, throat cuts, suppressing the arms, etc, once the chain has caught the blade or the person. The chain is longer and used for catching arms and swords. The other I didn't see as much of, but the chain was shorter and used more for swinging, had a curved blade, and the kata ended with tying up the opponent with the chain and going for the throat, and then a spectacular sweep on the end to avoid having 4 techniques in the kata. (Which is inauspicious to the Japanese. 4 techniques in the kata, 4 of the same technique in a row with no variation in between, either is bad. ) Neither one really went for a stab to the body, it was more joints and throat, though I should point out that the koryu tend to train as if you are wearing armor, so striking the body's often a nono anyway.
Amdur's comment on the kusarigama is that it is not a battle field weapon, due to the flailing. He's had the experience of sparring with a flail vs a bokken, and having a lot of fun until the chain got caught in a bush. Revenge time for the bokken! His comment was that kusarigama were more of an experiment during peacetime.

I really dont know much about Kusarigama, never had the chance to see the real use of it, just heard stories that it was made for fighting. And if I see some Kusarigama from the net, they look more for fighting:

https://www.rakuten.co.jp/chokuhan/img1022398548.jpeg
http://www.warussepat.fi/gusarikama1.jpg
http://jin-1.juttemaster.gozaru.jp/kusarigama.htm
http://aiur.us.es/~arashikiryu/shirotaka/kusariga2.jpg

It would be really intersting for me if I could see the use from different ryu live.

Does Admur know that it just was an experiment in peace time or is it just his oppinion?

Thomas

Trevor Johnson
8th August 2005, 21:43
I really dont know much about Kusarigama, never had the chance to see the real use of it, just heard stories that it was made for fighting. And if I see some Kusarigama from the net, they look more for fighting:

https://www.rakuten.co.jp/chokuhan/img1022398548.jpeg
http://www.warussepat.fi/gusarikama1.jpg
http://jin-1.juttemaster.gozaru.jp/kusarigama.htm
http://aiur.us.es/~arashikiryu/shirotaka/kusariga2.jpg

It would be really intersting for me if I could see the use from different ryu live.

Does Admur know that it just was an experiment in peace time or is it just his oppinion?

Thomas

Amdur's comment was that it wasn't a BATTLEFIELD weapon, not that it wasn't a weapon. Battlefields of the time were chaotic, messy places where you tend to be in close order with your fellow soldiers. Hitting one of them with a chain weapon, or snagging a bush with it, is a detriment to your own side. It's more likely to be a personal weapon, something that you can use one-on-one. I can see some applications for police work, like with the manriki-gusari.
As for his comment about peacetime weapons, he was in the middle of demonstrating a kata, so he didn't pull out a booklet in perfect citation form and give us his bibiography. It could have been either his opinion or his knowledge. I don't know.

Doug Daulton
13th August 2005, 07:13
As for cutting with Kama we had an excellent class in Tameshigiri from Esuke Akamine Sensei's wife when we were there for the world torunament.That kama (or one like it) was sitting on the bench just inside the door when I visited in 1999. Anma-sai gave me a little demonstration with sugar cane during that trip. I remember it well. :)

Great story Tim. Thanks for sharing.