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View Full Version : Aikijujutsu Technique: Katsugi-age (aka: Shumoku)



Valin Mattheis
16th July 2005, 22:43
Hi folks, long time lurker, first time posting.

Last night I was looking at some pictures of various Koryu arts, and I came across the popular picture of Takeda Sokaku with some poor bastard draped across his shoulders. Now, I don't practice Aikijujutsu, but I learned Judo from Hayao Kiyama Sensei (7th Dan, Kodokai Aikijujutsu), so I've had some exposure to the art. In Judo, Kiyama Sensei would always break out the illegal Aiki tricks for applying chokes and joint locks, to the great dismay of all my sempai, and eventually he turned his sights on me. Left an impression (and a mark), to say the least.

Anyway, my tokui waza were always Kata Guruma and Seoi Nage. This picture of Takeda struck me, because while at first glace it may appear as if he's doing some Aiki version of Kataguruma, something is off about the angles. It looks more like he's breaking this poor deshi over his shoulders like a broom handle. I'm not sure exactly how much of a fau paux it is to outright ask Koryu guys to explain specific techniques, especially to someone who is essentially an outsider, but if it's not something completely unheard of, could someone explain exactly what Takeda is doing in this picture? Thanks for your time!

Valin Mattheis

don
17th July 2005, 03:26
....Anyway, my tokui waza were always Kata Guruma and Seoi Nage. This picture of Takeda struck me, because while at first glace it may appear as if he's doing some Aiki version of Kataguruma, something is off about the angles. It looks more like he's breaking this poor deshi over his shoulders like a broom handle.....could someone explain exactly what Takeda is doing in this picture?

TS was infamously paranoid about people stealing his technique. It's not impossible that he has "faked" a technique deliberately so that others cannot understand the proper way to do it.

That said, there is a technique that opens up like SHIHO NAGE. Instead of going under the arm, however, NAGE stretches out and hoists UKE onto his shoulders pulling down on UKE's torqued arm and a leg. Very painful. But if the picture you're talking about is the one on the cover of a book, then TS isn't holding the limbs, right? (Sorry, I can't remember the name of the technique.)

What DR calls Seoi Nage proceeds from what aikido calls NIKYO. Having taken balance with the wrist lock, NAGE maintains it and thrusts his other arm up through UKE's armpit, stepping in front of him, and curling UKE over his body and down onto the mat.

There's yet one more, cruel, technique (which may be called "IPPON KATSUGI," I'm not sure) where UKE's arm is torqued over NAGE's shoulder, the fingers separated and ripped, and UKE ultimately hurled over NAGE's shoulder.

Hope this helps.

Valin Mattheis
17th July 2005, 07:17
Yes, thanks Don, that definitely helps me see a little better. Thanks for the info on Seoi variations too. Kiyama Sensei had a couple really nasty ones, but he wouldn't teach the specifics because he was afraid of legal repercussions if they were used in a Judo match. :D

Valin Mattheis

don
17th July 2005, 17:10
Thanks for the info on Seoi variations too. Kiyama Sensei had a couple really nasty ones, but he wouldn't teach the specifics because he was afraid of legal repercussions if they were used in a Judo match.

My pleasure. I never did as much judo as I'd like to have done.

I guess the effect of your GYAKU SEOI NAGE is much the same as aikido's SHIHO NAGE when done with bad intent. Man I hate it when digits, hands, or body parts get wrapped up in a DOGI! Would be interested in seeing other variations.

Cheers.

Valin Mattheis
17th July 2005, 23:40
I wish I had taken video (or rather, had the opportunity to take video) of some of these Seoi Nage variations. My favorite two were really unique. One, applied from a standing cross arm collar choke that was a Morote Seoi Nage variation, and another that was a very strange same side grip version. Need a camera to see that one. From a Judo standpoint, Kiyama Sensei's stuff was somewhat strange because of the Daito Ryu influence. That, and the fact that he learned before WW2. He was only 4th dan in Judo, but a 4th Dan pre WW2 is worth a helluva lot more these days. Nasty stuff back then, to be sure.

don
18th July 2005, 01:22
I wish I had taken video (or rather, had the opportunity to take video) of some of these Seoi Nage variations....From a Judo standpoint, Kiyama Sensei's stuff was somewhat strange because of the Daito Ryu influence. That, and the fact that he learned before WW2. He was only 4th dan in Judo, but a 4th Dan pre WW2 is worth a helluva lot more these days. Nasty stuff back then, to be sure.

Me, too. Wish I could see these. Thanks.

Nathan Scott
25th July 2005, 05:35
[Post deleted by user]

DarkThrone
27th July 2005, 16:51
I was on the recieving end of a similiar throw last time I had randori with my instructor. He was nice about the throw, so next time I speak to him I will ask what technique it was. I have only been training about 8 months, so I am still struggling with ikkajo. I think the reason he used that throw is because I mentioned this thread to him! :)

DarkThrone
28th July 2005, 00:09
It was Katagaruma that my instructor used on me. That being said, my knowledge of Daito Ryu only covers ikkajo, so I guess as it could be any of various techniques as previously stated.