Toshindo's Bojutsu DVD [Archive]

Hoshi_Ryu

16th July 2005, 14:12

Rest assured they play a very small minor point in the dvd.

After seeing 2 of Hayes recently released Bojutsu DVD I was shocked at how seriously limited his knowledge of Kukishin ryu Bojutsu is. What respect I had for him and his involvement in the USA Bujinkan went 100% the day i viewed them and listened to the rubbish he was coming out with.
If you think that's bad, his new DVD's also catch him using a straight blade, square guard, "ninja-to". You'd think after all the hassle he got about choku-to that he'd stop using it by now, esspecially since he should know better. If I had respect for him before, I lost it when I saw that.

R Erman

17th July 2005, 00:43

After seeing 2 of Hayes recently released Bojutsu DVD I was shocked at how seriously limited his knowledge of Kukishin ryu Bojutsu is. What respect I had for him and his involvement in the USA Bujinkan went 100% the day i viewed them and listened to the rubbish he was coming out with.

At the risk of encouraging a major thread drift, I would ask what else of his recent material have you seen?

I would hope a couple of monthly lessons on Bojutsu wouldn't be all it takes to lose respect for someone...

Cheers,

Rob Erman

poryu

17th July 2005, 16:06

HI Rob

one example of the bojutsu dvd I will give is this

One dvd I have is the Kuji no Bo (think thats the name)

It has the first 2 kuji no bo kata. where he got these I dont know but they are not gernally taught in the Bujinkan as far as I am aware. So it would be nice for him to name his teacher for those kata.

He states quite clearly that the Kuji no bo is related to Kuji Kiri

complete and utter crap.

Its actually relates to the fact that set of kata has 9 kata, thats why its called Kuji no Bo. He had been taught them properly and took time to look into it he would know that it has absolutely bothing to do with Kuji in any shape or form.

He does a Kamae which he calles Tenchijin no kamae which looks like Chudan no kamae from the kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho.

There is a lot more, but this is enough to explain how bad the info is

R Erman

17th July 2005, 16:45

Hi Paul,

I have no doubt that the errors you are pointing out are valid--I really wasn't questioning that. I was simply stating that losing 'what repsect you had for him' based soley on his knowledge of bojutsu is a little presumptive. I think Mr Hayes shines with his application of unarmed kata--not his weapon work. I would highly suggest looking at some of his takagi yoshin dvd's, if you can get ahold of a couple of them. I've been pretty impressed with those I've seen.

I've always respected your opinion, and obvious knowledge of history. You carry yourself online as someone with a lot of personal integrity, and not someoone who simply parrots the bujinkan party line. So my question was respectful inquiry as to what else you have seen.

poryu

17th July 2005, 17:03

Hi Rob

Sorry I slightly misunderstood your post and i stand corrected.

After what I have seen of the two bojutsu DVD I was given, the shuriken one I also have and the comments regarding the continued use of straight swords. I will have to say I am going to pass on the Takagi Videos. He may be good at Taijutsu and his Takagi work may be very good, but if all of the dvd I have seen are loaded with inaccurate info then I wont buy a DVD again in case I am once more disappointed.

The other thing that bothered me was that Mr Hayes is issuing licenses in these arts,something I think he is definately not entitled to.

George Kohler

17th July 2005, 17:16

One dvd I have is the Kuji no Bo (think thats the name)

It has the first 2 kuji no bo kata. where he got these I dont know but they are not gernally taught in the Bujinkan as far as I am aware. So it would be nice for him to name his teacher for those kata.

He states quite clearly that the Kuji no bo is related to Kuji Kiri

Hi Paul,

I do not know where Mr. Hayes recieved his instruction on "Kuji no Ho" (I've never heard it called "Kuji no Bo"), but it is related to Kuji Kiri.

poryu

17th July 2005, 17:19

HI George

I will dig out the DVd and check the exact title

I have spoken with some one in the Kukishin Ryu and they told me that it was not Kuji Kiri.

I will ask again and get back with an answer

R Erman

17th July 2005, 18:22

Hi Paul,

I do not know where Mr. Hayes recieved his instruction on "Kuji no Ho" (I've never heard it called "Kuji no Bo"), but it is related to Kuji Kiri.

Hi George,

It is not Kuji no Ho, but Kuji no Bo--these are specific bojutsu kata he is teaching on the videos. I think they are his own invention--maybe a pre-cursor to classical kata...Mike Stinson might know.

Cheers,

Rob

George Kohler

18th July 2005, 03:37

Hi George,

It is not Kuji no Ho, but Kuji no Bo--these are specific bojutsu kata he is teaching on the videos. I think they are his own invention--maybe a pre-cursor to classical kata...Mike Stinson might know.

Cheers,

Rob

Hi Rob,

Based on what Paul was talking about, i.e. "set of kata has 9 kata", it sounds very much like the "Kuji no Ho". I believe the "Kuji no Ho" and "Kutsu no Ho" were developed by Kiba Koshiro (I've also heard it was developed by Takamatsu Sensei) and are considered part of the Shobukyoku gata. Both sets contains 9 kata each.

Paul,
As per Tanemura Sensei, the Kuji no Ho has "kuji kiri".

If anyone wants to see some of these kata, Tanemura Sensei has a video called "Kukishin-ryu Shobukyoku Gata" and can be purchased by anyone (open to the public).

R Erman

18th July 2005, 14:34

Hi Rob,

Based on what Paul was talking about, i.e. "set of kata has 9 kata", it sounds very much like the "Kuji no Ho". I believe the "Kuji no Ho" and "Kutsu no Ho" were developed by Kiba Koshiro (I've also heard it was developed by Takamatsu Sensei) and are considered part of the Shobukyoku gata. Both sets contains 9 kata each.

Paul,
As per Tanemura Sensei, the Kuji no Ho has "kuji kiri".

If anyone wants to see some of these kata, Tanemura Sensei has a video called "Kukishin-ryu Shobukyoku Gata" and can be purchased by anyone (open to the public).

George,

Thank you for the info. Now I really wonder if these are the same kata...if so, why the name change?

George Kohler

18th July 2005, 16:55

I splitted this thread from the "Shinobi Documentary" thread.

George Kohler

18th July 2005, 21:01

George,

Thank you for the info. Now I really wonder if these are the same kata...if so, why the name change?

After reviewing SKH's website, I'm not sure if his kata have anything to do with "Kuji no Ho". Can anyone describe what the first two kata on the DVD looks like? And do they have any names?

Emrys

20th July 2005, 10:57

I believe what An Shu Stephen K Hayes is demonstrating on his bojutsu tapes is called Shoden Gata. These I believe are the kata that Hatsumi Sensei demonstrates briefly at the end of his Bojutsu tape. On DVD number 3 which covers kata 8 and 9 he states that there is also Chuden and Okuden and other levels beside.

I first saw An Shu Hayes teaching these kata back in 1996, pre To-Shin Do and so is not something he has recently just made up.

In the original kata the techniques were given names like Kangi, Hakugi etc, yet on the An Shu Hayes tapes they are called Dai Ippo, Dai Niho (number 1 and 2 etc). This is probably just to make it easier.

In the shobukyoku Gata the techniques for bo are the Sabaki gata i.e Goho, Ura Goho, Sasshia etc. There is a set of Kuji No Kutsu and Kuji Kiri but these relate to the Jo. Just to confuse matters further however, as An Shu Hayes states on the DVDs, in the old days all these weapons were taught as one thing i.e yari, bo, naginata, but in more recent times have become split up into seperate Kata patterns.

Therefore even in the Shobukyoku the Jo can be substituted for Bo or even Hanbo. See the Kukishin Ryu book by Kiba Koshiro.

As for the Kuji no bo being related to Kuji Kiri well if it is or not An Shu Hayes should know. He is one of the foremost authoritise on the subject and one of the only ones to have done any serious studying on this subject in the western world. So unless you have spent a great deal of time with Hatsumi Sensei, in the days when he taught Ninjutsu, spent time with the Dalai Lama, and spent time with Japanese priests involved in Mikkyo then I would reserve comment.

As George Kohler has stated, Tanemura has stated that it is related to Kuji Kiri. However I think its worth pointing out that the Japanese possibly have many meanings when it comes to the Kuji Kiri. Remember at its most basic Kuji Kiri means Nine Sylable Cuts, possibly Dai Ippo etc. The movements of the bo itself are maybe Kuji Kiri. Especially if the means of Kuji Kiri is to hypnotise.

I'm surmising here but maybe some of the movements of the bo are to hypnotise the attacker into believing one thing, then attacking somewhere else, thus sowing the seeds of confusion.

Maybe another Kata is to allow the attacker to believe he is going to win yet is defeated by his own confidence.

Is'nt this Kuji. Or maybe one believes its a simply matter of knitting the fingers together and issueing a few magic words.

El Guapo-san

20th July 2005, 11:30

Em, bah.

I like Kiba Koshiro's book "Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai". We did some of that in class a couple of months ago. Very cool.

For Mikkyo you might try looking up some of the articles on it at the Nanzan Institute. (http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/publications.htm) I would think that you would need a firmer grounding in the framework surrounding such a thing before you would want to try to learn it or to impart such knowledge to others. There is such a framework in Kukishin (-den), correct?

J. Vlach

George Kohler

20th July 2005, 13:36

Emrys,

Please sign your full name on each post.

In the shobukyoku Gata the techniques for bo are the Sabaki gata i.e Goho, Ura Goho, Sasshia etc. There is a set of Kuji No Kutsu and Kuji Kiri but these relate to the Jo.

The names of the kata are actually called "Kutsu no Ho" and "Kuji no Ho". and as far as being related to the Jo, is not quite correct. These are rokushaku-bo kata that CAN be used for the jo.

As George Kohler has stated, Tanemura has stated that it is related to Kuji Kiri.

Well, as you stated these are not the Kuji no Ho, so at this point I don't know if the kata (i.e. Kangi, ect.) does have kuji kiri. I was only referring to Kuji no Ho.

George Kohler

20th July 2005, 14:24

I like Kiba Koshiro's book "Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai". We did some of that in class a couple of months ago. Very cool.

J. Vlach,

Who did your teacher learn these from?

As far as I know the only ones teaching these are the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho group, the Genbukan, and one of the Ueno-den groups.

Oni

20th July 2005, 17:07

If you think that's bad, his new DVD's also catch him using a straight blade, square guard, "ninja-to". You'd think after all the hassle he got about choku-to that he'd stop using it by now, esspecially since he should know better. If I had respect for him before, I lost it when I saw that.

Like this one?

http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=27

Hoshi_Ryu

20th July 2005, 23:30

Like this one?

http://www.blosphere.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=148&pos=27
I'm sorry, but enbu and instructional videos are two very different things. Esspecially in the case of Mr.Hayes and his past history with that sword. With all of those problems you'd think he'd have learned by now.

Oni

20th July 2005, 23:51

I'm sorry, but enbu and instructional videos are two very different things. Esspecially in the case of Mr.Hayes and his past history with that sword. With all of those problems you'd think he'd have learned by now.

And the sword was used in an instructional video ON sword right? See...I seem to recall that it was a video on shuriken. The sword was used for MAYBE 30 seconds to deflect some thrown shurikens. If it has been used to any great degree in an actual sword instructional video I have missed that.

This is certainly much different than a demonstration of the art by Soke and the Japanese Shihan :rolleyes:

El Guapo-san

21st July 2005, 07:25

J. Vlach,

Who did your teacher learn these from?

As far as I know the only ones teaching these are the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho group, the Genbukan, and one of the Ueno-den groups.

I'm not going to get into a whizzing match here on the Internet. My teacher is a duely certified teacher within the Buijinkan.

We used the book (you can get it on Buyubooks.com), to see how (a couple of) bo kata were 'taught at a given time by a given teacher' in the words of my teacher. The placement and background were very clear, and beyond that these are the kinds of things which can immediately be taken out of context and can become one of those Internet stories that refuse to die no matter how untrue they are.

Ergo, the Bujinkan is NOT teaching Kukishin. Some individual dojos may look at things from other schools from time to time though.

As for kuji-kiri, there's an interesting bit in Diety and the Sword.

J. Vlach

George Kohler

21st July 2005, 12:12

I'm not going to get into a whizzing match here on the Internet. My teacher is a duely certified teacher within the Buijinkan.

J. Vlach,

No one said that your teacher was not a duely certified Bujinkan teacher. I asked who taught him the Shobukyoku gata. There are several certified Bujinkan teachers that have learned this gata from other groups.

Ergo, the Bujinkan is NOT teaching Kukishin. Some individual dojos may look at things from other schools from time to time though.

Sure, you may look. But why copy from a book. The Bujinkan has their own beautiful techniques.

Boromir

2nd August 2005, 13:14

Hello
Iam not sure but this maybe is answer for question regardin Kuji no Bo Kata.
Acording to Kukishin Tenshin hyoho Bojutsu Omote no Kata scroll contains some kata`s which they are also called as kuji no kata.

Omoteno-kata
1. Gohouburi
2. Uragohou
3. Sashiai
4. Funahari
5. Tsuruno-issoku
6. Suso-otoshi
7. Ippon-sugi
8. Kageno-ippon
9. Taki-otoshi
10.Koku
11.Kasanouchi
(Nine techniques from Sashiai to Kasanouchi are known collectively as Kuji-no kata)

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/index_e.html

my 2 cents

poryu

3rd August 2005, 08:57

as An Shu Hayes states on the DVDs, in the old days all these weapons were taught as one thing i.e yari, bo, naginata, but in more recent times have become .

Hi

I think if you ask the kuki shin ryu headedby the Kuki family they will not agree with this comment. IN the past many Ryu if not almost all of them kept each weapon seperate, Bo and Jo maybe lumped together as they are related but Yari and Naginata are not and tend to be kept seperate unless its Yari v Naginata.

Sorry but the more I read of hayes view point on some of the Buj related history the more I find loop holes in it. The stuff that he is correct on is very basic and simple that any shodan could have stated it. Considering his wife is Japanese and he speaks Japanese (so I am told) and his numerous visits to Japan, then I am surprised that he has so limited history to hand out or share.

If people spent more time looking at hostory outside of the Hayes area and then went back to him they would see what i am talking about. Just because people like Hayes were about in the 70's does not mean they are the abslute know all on th subject, in fact in many cases many of them still do the 70's/80's lack of knowledge Bujinkan style. I speak of experience here reading there new material and even training with soe of them over the years. Some of those people continued to progress like others did, some did not.

As for the Kuji, has any one ever sasked Hayes to define what he teachs as Kuji to its each and individual source.

for example what he teaches, which of it is 100% genuinely form the bujinkan taught to him personally form a shihan or Hatsumi, what has he got fomr books and what has he got form any other source he may have. I dont doubt he knows mor eon the subject of kuji than I ever will but what he traches as Kuji what part of it is definately Bujinkan and what is not.

The reason I ask is if its not Bujinkan then is he saying it is or not, and if its not does he say this is from this and that source or is he just leading people blind so they havent a clue and he is letting them assume what they will

poryu

3rd August 2005, 09:01

Em, bah.
I like Kiba Koshiro's book "Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu: Bojutsu, Hanbojutsu, Tachiai". We did some of that in class a couple of months ago. Very cool.
correct?
J. Vlach

HI

do you know someone who has recieved tutition in these forms.

The reason I ask is they are not exactly like the bujinkan version of the same kata, and I havent heard of anyone outside of Japan in the Bujinkan who have been taught the Shobukyoku style.

Just interested in where they got the instruction in these versions

poryu

3rd August 2005, 09:04

poryu

3rd August 2005, 09:09

HI

I'm not going to get into a whizzing match here on the Internet. My teacher is a duely certified teacher within the Buijinkan.

No one is asking you to lauch an attack or respond to an attack, the question posted by George and now myself is has your teacher recieved instruction from a certified instructor in these forms. Defending your teacher is one of the bravest things we can do on the web and hats off to any one who does (including yourself)

We used the book (you can get it on Buyubooks.com), to see how (a couple of) bo kata were 'taught at a given time by a given teacher' in the words of my teacher. J. Vlach

I agree with looking at the book however doing the kata form the book if you havent recieved instruction is hard. Those old photos have so much missing from the in between each pic, that it is hard unless you have recieved instruction to do them yourself.

The Takagi Ryu DVD has a different version of the kukishin Ryu Bojutsu if anyone is interested in seeing. Some of the kata looked so different to me from what we are taught in the bujinkan.

George Kohler

3rd August 2005, 12:21

The Takagi Ryu DVD has a different version of the kukishin Ryu Bojutsu if anyone is interested in seeing. Some of the kata looked so different to me from what we are taught in the bujinkan.

Hi Paul,

Which DVD are you referring to?

Emrys

3rd August 2005, 12:24

George Kohler
In relation to the Kuji Kutsu and Kuji Kiri, which you state are incorrect. The lists I have from Tanemura i,m pretty sure stated the former. However i did get these lists over 10 years ago, so maybe the names are now different on more modern lists.

Im interested to find out what people make of Hatsumi's 'Way of the Ninja' when he talks about Kuji Kiri.

Pouryu,
In regard to Stephen K Hayes command of the Japanese Language, I can vouch that it is very good, even being able to read Japanese. In fact this was borne out when Stephen and Rumiko looked at some of my certificates given out by a Bujinkan 4th Dan and were actually written incorrectly.

Paul I realise that you are probably making some good money from your 'History of the Schools of the Bujinkan' and of course its good if you can slam your competitors work, but if you had ever sat with Stephen K Hayes in a close conversation one would realise how much he actually knows. Maybe its because of how things get taken out of context that he chooses his words and who he passes his comments onto wisely.

poryu

3rd August 2005, 12:45

Paul I realise that you are probably making some good money from your 'History of the Schools of the Bujinkan'

If I really had anything to do with that project then maybe I would be making good money from it, however I gave up ion that project many years ago.

Funny how people have always assumed I make good money form it with out actually asking if I ever did make much out of it in the first place.

As for sitting and talking with Hayes. Maybe one day, but whil ehe puts out information which is known to be in correct in his public material i would have to be asking him why he sells material that is incorrect.

And yes before you comment i know not all of it is incorrect.

poryu

3rd August 2005, 12:47

Hi George

The Nippon Budokan released a dvd of the Takagi Ryu Jujutsu recently

Its excellent, maybe the most powerful version of takagi i have ever seen

George Kohler

3rd August 2005, 15:00

George Kohler

3rd August 2005, 15:04

Hi George

The Nippon Budokan released a dvd of the Takagi Ryu Jujutsu recently

That's what I thought you were talking about, but wanted to make sure.

El Guapo-san

4th August 2005, 08:42

... the question posted by George and now myself is has your teacher recieved instruction from a certified instructor in these forms.

I agree with looking at the book however doing the kata form the book if you havent recieved instruction is hard. Those old photos have so much missing from the in between each pic, that it is hard unless you have recieved instruction to do them yourself.

Definitely has instruction in Kukishinden Bo from the certifying teacher himself. The interesting thing was that some parts of the book were simply not possible to decipher. ("Hit, then twist"? Huh? OK just give it a densho reading.) We did two kata, and then looked at variations from those. Then the lesson switched to Gyokko Ryu kata of the week. Anyway, it's not something we do that often. (I need to get back to class as well; mucho busy recently durnit.)

Where's the Nippon Budokan DVD available? (Buyubooks or Kinokinuya?) I'll be in Tokyo in the near future and could pick the thing up.

J. Vlach

poryu

4th August 2005, 09:19

The Takagi Ryu Jujutsu Kukishin ryu Bojutsu dvd is here

http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=11004

says out of stock but i think it will be back soon

ChrisMoon

4th August 2005, 10:10

The Takagi Ryu Jujutsu Kukishin ryu Bojutsu dvd is here

http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=11004

says out of stock but i think it will be back soon

www.budovideos.com has a lot of copies i think

they are selling it cheaper then buyubooks and i think the shipping charges are cheaper too

poryu

4th August 2005, 10:19

www.budovideos.com has a lot of copies i think

they are selling it cheaper then buyubooks and i think the shipping charges are cheaper too

No surprise there

Tamdhu

5th August 2005, 17:02

The other thing that bothered me was that Mr Hayes is issuing licenses in these arts,something I think he is definately not entitled to.

You think?

That's nice.

What do you know?

Nothing?

That's nice too!

poryu

6th August 2005, 08:47

What do you know?

Hi

what do I know.

Plenty

1. Unless you have personally recieved a menkyo of a given level and have permission to issue rank in that given school you cant do it.

In some schools even menkyo kaiden does not mean you can issue rank.

2. As far as I am aware no non-Japanese, this includes Mr Hayes, have never been issued any form of Menkyo in any of the 9 Ryu

3. Even the shihan in Japan who have recieved Menkyo such as Menkyo Kaiden in Japan from Hatsumi do not and have not issued licenses in any of the given ryu.

4. Therefore, any license issued by someone who has not recieved any menkyo that permits or has permission to issue license makes any and all licenses issued bythat person invalid. In some ryu this would get you expelled.

5. Mr hayes himself says on his Bojutsu dvd that you can gain licenses for the different levels from him, it did also last time I looked also state this on his web page with photo samples of the licenses on the web page.

So all the licenses issued by Mr Hayes for example in the Kukishin Ryu etc are worthless.

What do I know

Plenty

Prove me wrong and I will back down and appologise, prove me right and you can learn something new.

saru1968

6th August 2005, 12:33

[QUOTE=poryu]

2. As far as I am aware no non-Japanese, this includes Mr Hayes, have never been issued any form of Menkyo in any of the 9 Ryu

4. Therefore, any license issued by someone who has not recieved any menkyo that permits or has permission to issue license makes any and all licenses issued bythat person invalid. In some ryu this would get you expelled.

So all the licenses issued by Mr Hayes for example in the Kukishin Ryu etc are worthless.

QUOTE]

Good points indeed.

I thought Arnauld had Menkyo Kaiden unless i'm mistaken?

I never understand why if an individual is awarding rank, when they can't or should'nt, why they are not pull up?

MJHildreth

6th August 2005, 14:04

Good points indeed.

I thought Arnauld had Menkyo Kaiden unless i'm mistaken?

I never understand why if an individual is awarding rank, when they can't or should'nt, why they are not pull up?

Arnaud's Menkyo Kaiden is in Tachi Waza. Not in one of the 9 ryu as Paul stated previously.

Tamdhu

6th August 2005, 18:18

Paul,

If you truly know plenty, then you should know to treat your teachers and superiors with respect. This goes for ALL teachers, not just the Japanese ones. You don't have to agree with them on everything or follow them slavishly, but you must be respectful.

The only true path to Hatsumi for us westerners is and always has been via his personal student, Stephen K. Hayes. This is and never was subject to popular vote. If you reject your commitment and connection to Hayes, you reject any connection to Hatsumi.

You clearly don't know this, so, I think, you don't know very much at all.

Thanks,

-Kent

PS

Still very much enjoying your fine bo-shuriken!

Pankeeki

6th August 2005, 21:31

The only true path to Hatsumi for us westerners is and always has been via his personal student, Stephen K. Hayes. This is and never was subject to popular vote. If you reject your commitment and connection to Hayes, you reject any connection to Hatsumi.

You clearly don't know this, so, I think, you don't know very much at all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHHAAHHAHAAHHAHA I almost pissed myself there for a moment. That has to be the best joke made on e-budo in a long time.
Thanks that really made my day.

Oni

6th August 2005, 22:05

Although I have answered this before I will state it again.

Mr. Hayes is NOT giving out licenses in Kukishinden Ryu or any of the other 9 ryu. The website very clearly states:

passing the test for Kihon Fundamentals diploma licensing in the martial art of Japanese rokushakubo 6-foot staff technique taught in Stephen K. Hayes' martial art of To-Shin Do®.

It does say it Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu material as recognition of the systems that the material is derived from. The license itself is a To-Shin Do license.

From a shoden level tape from the website:

To-Shin Do Bojutsu Long Staff Shoden - Kuji no Bo Kata 1 & 2
To-Shin Do Bojutsu Kukishinden Ryu Kuji no Bo 1
1 Classical kata and contemporary unarmed adaptation
To-Shin Do Bojutsu Kukishinden Ryu Kuji no Bo 2
1 Classical kata and contemporary unarmed adaptation

Use this video lesson to begin your study leading to earning your To-Shin Do Bojutsu Shoden scroll diploma!

The wording on my kihon certificate (which was among one of the very first) is 'Stephen K. Hayes martial art of To-Shin Do Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu'. This is very clearly stating that this is a TO-SHIN DO certificate based on the study of the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu material.

Lets look at the wording from a Takagi shoden video:

Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu Shoden Kata "Kasumi-Dori" & "Do-Gaeshi"
- September 2004 Video Private Lesson

Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu Shoden Kata "Kasumi-Dori”
1 Classical kata and contemporary adaptations, including stand-up and groundfighting adaptations
Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu Shoden Kata "Do-Gaeshi”
1 Classical kata and contemporary adaptations, including stand-up and groundfighting adaptations

Use this video private lesson to begin your study leading to earning your To-Shin Do Jutaijutsu Shoden scroll diploma!

So...these licenses are as worthwhile as any other licenses distributed by any other school based upon your relationship to the school in question. Mr. Hayes chose to use the older style grading system as kind of a fun method of teaching this particular material through the To-Shin Do system. As is often said when folks get in an uproar about 11th - 15th dans in the Bujinkan...if you are not involved with To-Shin Do...don't worry about it. It doesn't affect you.

gcarson

6th August 2005, 22:37

As for the Kuji no bo being related to Kuji Kiri well if it is or not An Shu Hayes should know. He is one of the foremost authoritise on the subject and one of the only ones to have done any serious studying on this subject in the western world. So unless you have spent a great deal of time with Hatsumi Sensei, in the days when he taught Ninjutsu, spent time with the Dalai Lama, and spent time with Japanese priests involved in Mikkyo then I would reserve comment.

How about spending time _Becoming_ an actual priest...not a layman practitioner? Mr.Hayes is not a priest, although he has sought pw certification from several mikkyo related groups, most recent being the Tendai temple in NY. He is not the foremost authority on "kuji" anywhere, except in his own studios. He has learned bits and pieces and uses it for his own benefit. Thats ok, but claiming any kind of rank/seniority is not.

Were Mr.Hayes fully ordained (a process that takes years of constant study and practice in the temple in Japan) by any of the temples that teach Mikkyo, then he would be _one_ of the seniors. I believe there are several fully ordained Shingon priests in California that greatly 'outrank' Mr.Hayes in Mikkyo and other buddhist related practices.

I will not disparage his martial skills or its relationship to the Bujinkan, as I have not seen him personally or his dvd/videos. However, the often misunderstood notion that Kuji began with or is indepth linked to Nin/po/jutsu-practices of any of the X-kans is silly. They were/are derived from a religion BY practitioners certainly, but they were not created by or for these martial arts.

Not trying to nitpick, but people "mystifying" kuji/mudra practices in MA drives me a little bonkers.

Cheers

poryu

7th August 2005, 08:57

HI

Paul,
The only true path to Hatsumi for us westerners is and always has been via his personal student, Stephen K. Hayes.

This is complete rubbish, Hayes is not the true path to Hatsumi and never was. Why should I look to an American when there are more senior shihan in Europe. Hayes is Hayes, he is not the true path and never was. Next you will say he was the first non japanese shidoshi and the first non japanese to train with Hatsumi

Where do you get the impression we should follow him.

If you reject your commitment and connection to Hayes, you reject any connection to Hatsumi.

are you on drugs?????????

if not some one is brain washing you and I suggest you get out now

I never had any commitment or connection to Hayes, and I never will.

You clearly don't know this, so, I think, you don't know very much at all.

Now I clearly know you need to get help, such quotes like yours are suggesting that some one is feeding you some seriously bad information. These comments make me want to keep further away from Hayes than ever before.

Your in a martial art not a cult. Do yourself a favour ask questions of other shidoshi in the USA, I think someone is mistreating you

gcarson

7th August 2005, 15:36

The only true path to Hatsumi for us westerners is and always has been via his personal student, Stephen K. Hayes. This is and never was subject to popular vote. If you reject your commitment and connection to Hayes, you reject any connection to Hatsumi.

Wow, you're being sarcastic right?

Otherwise, there are several hundred western Shihan who either travel to (or live in) Japan to train regularly with Hatsumi, who are somehow getting a crap load of info DIRECTLY from Hatsumi, that prove you to be delusional at best.

Since you list BBT as your style, who is your teacher in Boston?

poryu

7th August 2005, 16:10

Wow, you're being sarcastic right?

Hi greg

I hope he was because I sure as hell bite deep and took the bait. If he wasnt then I suggest he follows my advise

gcarson

7th August 2005, 22:09

Hi greg

I hope he was because I sure as hell bit deep and took the bait. If he wasnt then I suggest he follows my advise

Hi Paul,

Could be either I guess, but I have noticed a heightened Troll presence on the MA boards I visit over the last month or so.....

Cheers

Tamdhu

8th August 2005, 05:22

I think that the details of exactly who is being fed what and by whom will prove to be interesting as time goes on.

The bottom line of course is that we're all responsible for feeding ourselves. Some sources are more nourishing than others. Some are downright poisonous.

And if anyone thinks that Californian Mikkyo priests are going to shed any light on ninpo kuji, well, good luck to them. Have yourself a field day.

Loyalty to teachers is extremly important in Japanese culture. Sensei Hayes was tasked with bringing Hatsumi's ninpo to the west, which he did. Almost every seasoned and mature western instructor can be traced directly to sensei Hayes or to one of his students.

There is nothing cultish about this. The 'cultists', if that accusation is to be leveled, are the ones who betrayed his authority and his responsibility to Hatsumi by abandoning his guidance and striking out on their own.

In so doing, they have shown little or no respect for anything aside from their own self-interests.

But this all happened a long time ago, and that's all 'water under the bridge', right? Everythings different now, right? Everythings open . . . a free for all, right?

Better hope so! Better hope your 'popular vote' holds as much water as you think it does. If it turns out to be full of holes, you might not reach the shore in time . . .

gcarson

8th August 2005, 06:34

And if anyone thinks that Californian Mikkyo priests are going to shed any light on ninpo kuji, well, good luck to them. Have yourself a field day.

1. Actually I believe they are Japanese Mikkyo priests who moved to California for the express purpose of teaching their faith.

2. There is no such thing as "ninpo" kuji. This was derived from Mikkyo teachings (Shingon is and for a long time has been one of the more influential sects in Japan to teach this) by ninpo practitioners. I believe that Takamatsu was an ordained Priest in one such temple (unsure if it was Shingon related to be honest), so that would easily explain esoteric buddhist teachings being included in the arts passed to Hatsumi huh?

3. Hayes bringing teaching to the west : In your version of history, who was the holy person who was supposed to bring it to Europe? Or the rest of the known world outside of Japan?

4. What does it say about Hatsumi, if he is (as you imply) deceiving everyone (all the thousands and thousands) who are not now, and have never been associated with Hayes? Wow....it makes him look pretty uhm, ....wow.

5. I will ask again as you did not answer : Who is your teacher? And where in this great deception of the masses does he/she fit in?

poryu

8th August 2005, 08:04

Hi

Loyalty to teachers is extremly important in Japanese culture.

you are 100% correct here. The problem with this being is Hayes was never in the past and never will be in mthe future my teacher so i owe him nothing, no loyalty or anything. Just as he doesnt owe me anything either.

Sensei Hayes was tasked with bringing Hatsumi's ninpo to the west, which he did.

He wasnt the only one told to take it out there and teach it. Doron Navon had opened a Dojo in the west the same year Hayes had his very first lesson. BY that time Doron had completed several years of seriously intensive training that hayes never did. he livedin Japan while hayes on his first visit on went for a few weeks.

In Sweden Bo Munthe had Ishizuka visit him in 1975 in Sweden. I am told there was a Sweden who started traiing before Bo who still trains today. In Holland there was a man prior to hayes also. In the USA there was a man who trained before Hayes. There was also a Brit as well who trained before hayes, as well as at least 2 Israeli's one of which is still training and teaching today.

Many whom Hayes taught visited Japan and were ranked the same as Hayes and told to open there own Dojo by Hatsumi. Todday almost all of those people still traiing in the Bujinkan out rank Hayes. Many of them have visited hatsumi in Japan and attended more Taikai than Hayes. Just because Hayes was one of the first dont make him the ultimate be all end all.

Almost every seasoned and mature western instructor can be traced directly to sensei Hayes or to one of his students.

I can trace the fact me teachers teacher trained with Hayes once and attended a Taikai organised by Hayes. My own original teacher attended one seminar taught by Hayes. My teacher attended maybe 40 seminars taught by his own teacher. Now who is the most important here. Not Hayes.

Better hope so! Better hope your 'popular vote' holds as much water as you think it does. If it turns out to be full of holes, you might not reach the shore in time . . .

It seems our popluar vote is outwaying your vote. We wont be reaching for the shore, not by a long shot. In fact I doubt we will even get wet

poryu

8th August 2005, 08:14

Hi Michael

The wording on my kihon certificate (which was among one of the very first) is 'Stephen K. Hayes martial art of To-Shin Do Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu'. This is very clearly stating that this is a TO-SHIN DO certificate based on the study of the Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu material.

I have a question you may be able to answer then

Has Mr Hayes recieved permission to use the name Kukishinden Ryu on his certificates.

Normally to use a name you have to have recieved licensing in that individual Ryu and also have permission and/or the rank that goes with it to use the name.

Implications here based on japanese pracrtise is Mr hayes has recieved a Shihan style rank in Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu and has either been made a soke of the Ryu to be able to add Kukishidne Ryu to his own schools anme or he has completely broken away form Kukishinden Ryu and taken the name with him.

I have attached the copy of the menjo he has on his page for kukishinden ryu bojutsu with the Kukishinden highlighted in both english and japanese.

Do you know which one he has done.

If he has permission then I would be most interested for my history notes to know when he got it as I am led to believe no Non-Japanese has so far been givien permission to do so, letalne recieved any menkyo in any individual ryu

Ghost Cat

8th August 2005, 23:45

Sensei Hayes was tasked with bringing Hatsumi's ninpo to the west, which he did.

The 'cultists', if that accusation is to be leveled, are the ones who betrayed his authority and his responsibility to Hatsumi by abandoning his guidance and striking out on their own.

Where the heck did you hear this? I really want to know.

I think you should have checked with Hatsumi before you said that he tasked Hayes with bringing his art to the west. If you go to him and ask he will tell you that it is untrue. No one was ever tasked with the responsibility of bringing Hatsumi's art to the west. No one was ever made leader over the non-Japanese practicioners.

And the loyalty of every member of Hatsumi's art should be to Hatsumi and no one else.

Check with Hatsumi and you will find that Hayes was allowed to continue his training back in the states. Since it is difficult to train on your own, he like others such as Doron Navron, etc before him was allowed to start training groups. Of course, no one before him ever took the idea of a training group as far as he.

He was never made the head of the effort to bring the art to the west and he was not given any responsibility or authority on the matter. In fact, he was forbidden to teach things such as kata such as Koku and was supposed to stick with the basics. Again, go ask Hatsumi is you do not believe me.

I really want to know who told you that Hayes was somehow made the head of all non- Japanese training. It is quiet incorrect.

R Erman

9th August 2005, 02:28

In fact, he was forbidden to teach things such as kata such as Koku and was supposed to stick with the basics.

Ok, this is pretty confusing. I thought one of the biggest beefs with SKH was that he wasn't teaching what was being taught in Japan in the early eighties. Now this sounds like he was told to not teach what was being taught in Japan in the early eighties...

I swear--and Don this is not directed at you--there is so much crap being spewed about Hayes. It seems like no discussion is complete nowadays without at least one jibe at him. I've seen a number of things that he's been accused of making up that have later turned out to be true. I guess from an earlier post he's not an ordained buddhist priest anymore either, even though he's well known in buddhist circles as a buddhist priest/teacher/minister...whatever, and this is part of his biography on his website:

Stephen K. Hayes is an ordained teacher of 1,200-year-old Japanese vajrayana meditation tradition--which I've read occured in May of 1991.

Yes he has stepped on some toes, and yes he has some...enthusiastic online proponents, who at times say some pretty silly things, but for the most part he does his own thing and leaves everybody else alone--why can't everyone else show the same courtesy?

I really wish some of his detractors would step back and realize how bad--and petty--they make themselves out to be by continuing to criticize him. It's fruitless, and does nothing but invite comparison between subject and critic. Which, for the most part, does not work in favor of the spitefull.

FWIW, this rant is generally directed towards several recent threads on different forums, not only this thread. With that I'll exit the pulpit.

Ghost Cat

9th August 2005, 03:25

but for the most part he does his own thing and leaves everybody else alone--why can't everyone else show the same courtesy?

I try to leave him alone. But when I see things like incorrect statements about him being named the head of all Non- Japanese Bujinkan training I have to step in and ask people to check with Hatsumi to tell it is not true. I also have trouble with some of his on- line cheer squad taking pot shots at Bujinkan training as part of what seems to be the official line that Toshindo training is the street effective version and Bujinkan is no longer vaild for the world.

Again, if Toshindo people would merely do their thing I do not think that I would have to get involved at all. And I know I am not the only one that never posts in regards to Hayes except when something wrong is being stated.

Oh, and the section you quoted from me- Hayes was IIRC only supposed to teach the basics up to about the point where you start doing kata like Koku.

Oni

9th August 2005, 17:05

I

Again, if Toshindo people would merely do their thing I do not think that I would have to get involved at all. And I know I am not the only one that never posts in regards to Hayes except when something wrong is being stated.

For the most part they do. In fact I can think of very few To-Shin Do folks out there that post at all. Most of the stuff I have seen has been started by some individual member of the Bujinkan. Whether it is about Mr. Hayes, some xkan they don't like, some other Bujinkan shidoshi that they don't like, some Bujinkan concept they don't like (ranking, training methods, other Bujinkan shidoshi training methods, etc), some other art they don't like and feel is inferior to the Bujinkan, etc it is the same old thing over and over. Maybe some Bujinkan people should consider just doing their thing as well.

These last few days I have had enough. I have watched this thread infect several boards now. I have watched something said by someone other than Mr. Hayes become a reason to slam on Mr. Hayes on at least 2 boards...and has become a topic of discussion on at least 3 boards. Tahmdus post was made by him. NOT Mr. Hayes.

As far as this particular thread and the questions posed in it...

Takamatsu sensei often heard gossip about his students. Every time he said, "Budo is not a technique. It is heart. If you do not have the right spiritual attitude, you have zero quality as a budo student. Gossips are purposeless men." In addition, he added, "If you have a complaint about somebody, say it to that person directly." He hated and condemned those who gossiped.

Ninpo: Wisdom for Life

Heres some help:

http://www.skhquest.com/schools/default.aspx
http://www.bujinkan.com/contact.htm

As I said I have had enough. I am unsubscribed from all threads and am closing my PM box. Those that may wish to contact me for any reason can do so via other means. I personally feel that these forums serve very little purpose anymore than as a playground for agendas and spite. The few good threads that do get started are normally torn apart by folks either trying to be funny....or with cutting words.

Take this as my official retirement.

gcarson

9th August 2005, 18:18

I guess from an earlier post he's not an ordained buddhist priest anymore either, even though he's well known in buddhist circles as a buddhist priest/teacher/minister...whatever, and this is part of his biography on his website:

Stephen K. Hayes is an ordained teacher of 1,200-year-old Japanese vajrayana meditation tradition--which I've read occured in May of 1991.

Ok first, there are damn few temples in Japan that go back 1200 years. That is a generalization of fact that is a good marketing tool....like saying Ninjutsu is 1500 years old or similar. Yes its root go back that far, probably further, but to make a non-definitive statement that lends itself to easy misassumption is inappropriate(no ninjutsu lineage can be proven that far back...actually no MA can be).

Secondly, Mr.Hayes has done some practices, but his list does not qualify him as a priest in any lineage. This has more than stepped on toes of those people who are fully ordained and who spent years living at the temples to earn this. Mr.Hayes regularly visits Japan, but I would request the temple name, abbots name and years that he stayed there (usually unbroken, no vacations is the rule) to earn this ordination.

Oni, I'm sorry to see that you think this is a slam on Mr.Hayes. Short of his claims on Buddhist ordination (which I have clearly questioned but not insulted him over) and Pauls questioning of his using the name of the Kuki arts in a manner that isn't consistant with Japanese methodology, I don't see a lot of insults or degredation.

IMO, Mr.Hayes uses both the ordained claim and the certificates as a means of marketing. Thats not to say there are not legitimate benefits from practicing what he teaches, just that he does it in such a way as to best benefit its continual spread. What the other guy tried to claim about Hayes is obviously either trolling or serious mental instability. It doesn't reflect badly on Hayes simply because 'Tamdhu' hasn't provided the source of his quasi-info. If he was a ranking toshindo teacher...that would be a different story, as his information would more directly come from Mr.Hayes.

Ghost Cat

9th August 2005, 22:41

Tahmdus post was made by him. NOT Mr. Hayes.

True. But where did he get the idea? The more I think about it the more disturbed I get about the idea of someone with his years and experience getting the idea that Hayes was tasked with leading the non-Japan Bujinkan and anyone who is not part of his orginization is a back stabbing betrayer.

I think we need to find the source of this and put a stake through its heart before it causes a lot more trouble between those who follow Hatsumi and those that follow Hayes.

I am also disturbed by the fact that no Toshindo member came forward to correct this mistaken idea. If you say on the internet that Hatsumi is a Japanese Living National Treasure there will be several Bujinkan members who will step forward to say that his accomplishments are not that prestigious. Why hasn't the many Toshindo practicioners on this board stepped forward to set the story straight?

It also a concern that no Toshindo member has even said that the story is wrong. Oni- you took the risk of turning this into a pissing match between the Bujinkan and Toshindo by giving your opinion on how Bujinkan members post, but you have yet to say clearly that Hayes was never expected by Hatsumi to have any control over non- Japanese practicioners.

Considering just how much weight you carry, and the possibilies of this story causing problems, I think you and other Toshindo members should state quite clearly that the story is not true and Hayes has always been no more than a person who trained with Hatsumi like many others.

R Erman

10th August 2005, 02:18

Secondly, Mr.Hayes has done some practices, but his list does not qualify him as a priest in any lineage. This has more than stepped on toes of those people who are fully ordained and who spent years living at the temples to earn this. Mr.Hayes regularly visits Japan, but I would request the temple name, abbots name and years that he stayed there (usually unbroken, no vacations is the rule) to earn this ordination.

This is from www.mvmeditation.org :

He took his initial Triple Refuge vows and the name Sherab Dorje ("Wisdom Diamond") from Karma Kagyu Tibetan Buddhist master Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche and His Eminence Jamgon Kongtrul in 1984.

He was initiated into the Mt. Yoshino yamabushi mountain ascetic tradition by priests of the Henso-ji Temple in the summer of 1987.

He took his Tokudo priesthood ordination vows and the name Jien ("Circle of Compassion") from Japanese esoteric Mikkyo vajrayana master Clark Jikai Choffy in May of 1991.

Took me all of two minutes to find this info.

I am also disturbed by the fact that no Toshindo member came forward to correct this mistaken idea.

I'm not exactly a 'to shin do member', but I thought that the post you are referencing didn't even merit a response. It was pretty obviously an extreme position that very few people would hold. Definitely not something that holds any real weight.

Oh well, I think I'll follow Mike's lead and bow out of this.

Cheers,

Tamdhu

10th August 2005, 02:34

Unless we have been taken on as a personal student of Hatsumi, then our loyalty (in ninpo training terms) belongs to our instructor. We respect Hatsumi and the art as a whole by respecting our instructors. Our connection to Hatsumi is through our instructor. The tightest connection to Hatsumi is going to be with an instructor who is and was a personal student of Hatsumi.

Doron Navon is a wonderful human being and a brilliant martial artist, and if you are a student of a student of his, then you are truly blessed. If you know yourself to be a personal student of one of the Japanese shihan, then I honestly envy you. As for other westerners who trained with Hatsumi in the 60's, that's great, but none of them went on to fulfill the role which Stephen Hayes has played . . .

. . . and still plays to this day. Nothing has changed.

If we 'dump' our instructors without very good reason, we are really no different than men cheating on their wives.

Many senior instructors should be writing letters of apology to both Hatsumi soke and Stephen K. Hayes for the trouble and embarrassment they have caused and shamelessly perpetuated over the years.

They won't, of course, but they should.

Ghost Cat

10th August 2005, 03:19

Unless we have been taken on as a personal student of Hatsumi, then our loyalty (in ninpo training terms) belongs to our instructor.

Kindly show me where Hatsumi has said this?

And anyone who has passed the fifth dan test becomes a personal student of Hatsumi anyways.

gcarson

10th August 2005, 04:17

This is from www.mvmeditation.org :

[i]He took his initial Triple Refuge vows and the name Sherab Dorje ("Wisdom Diamond") from Karma Kagyu Tibetan Buddhist master Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche and His Eminence Jamgon Kongtrul in 1984.

He was initiated into the Mt. Yoshino yamabushi mountain ascetic tradition by priests of the Henso-ji Temple in the summer of 1987.

[COLOR=Blue]He took his Tokudo priesthood ordination vows and the name Jien ("Circle of Compassion") from Japanese esoteric Mikkyo vajrayana master Clark Jikai Choffy in May of 1991

1. Triple refuge vows = basic vows any buddhist practitioner takes when beginning any type of practice

2. Mt.Yoshino - Shugendo practices : Initiated = 1 practice period of less than 2 weeks (many many people have this sort of layman initiation)

3. Jikai is a TENDAI priest. Listing him as a Mikkyo Vajrayana Master is another way of making him sound overly important. Please reference www.tendai.org for the (very short) list of priests recognized by MT.HIEI, who live in NA. Whatever he got from Jikai, it doesn't seem to be enough to list him as a Tendai priest.....mmmmm. If he isn't recognized by MT.HIEI, then he does not have FULL ordination (kinda like training with Hatsumi for 2 weeks doesn't make me a Shihan). Taking vows means he started on the path, not that he followed it to completion.

I find it interesting that he took his refuge vows in a tibetan lineage, began practice with a Shugen lineage and then was 'ordained' in a Tendai lineage.
These three are to each other as grapes, apples & oranges are. All good, but not nearly the same as one another.

I do not want to further hijack this thread (originally about Hayes DVD) any further, but Mr.Hayes is practicing self inflation. Too bad.

Nice point on the Godan test Don.....

its kinda stupid to force someone who trained for the last say, 15 years in Europe (and never with Hayes or Navon) to be under debt to either man. What about all the great teachers who were inspired and supported by Ishizuka, who did a ton of work promoting the art, especially in Europe?
And what about all the 15th dans now? They all outrank Hayes....how does that work?

Hey Tam- you know the earth doesn't actually revolve around the sun right?

El Guapo-san

10th August 2005, 07:54

I go to class a couple of times a week. My direct teacher is an eigth-grader and his teacher (whose classes I also go to frequently) is a fifteenth grader. I never studied in America, although I do think that the books Hayes put out in the 80s got me interested. (And then I forgot about it all for 15 years.) Neither teacher ever studied in America, and I have yet to see Hayes on the Continent. The only people I need to feel grateful to are the local teachers here who put up with gaijin like me and to the Japanese teachers who put up with me when I'm there. Whatever goes on in America goes on in America.

Were I to move to, say, New York, I still will have started out over in Europe, and I will still train with the highest ranking people possible who are currently going to Japan in my new home. At the end of the day, though, my training is up to me and I will walk out of a dojo where I do not feel comfortable.

Next, insofar as Buddhism goes, I think it is prone to many unqiue and new interpretations in America. Interpretations which may not be found back in Asia. It's Buddhism, so it changes. My cousin is ordained Rinzai (in California), and told me that you don't need to do anything official to 'become' Buddhist. You can if you want, but it's really for you and not anything required.

J. Vlach

gcarson

11th August 2005, 01:13

My cousin is ordained Rinzai (in California), and told me that you don't need to do anything official to 'become' Buddhist. You can if you want, but it's really for you and not anything required.

Agreed. There is no all emcompassing rule in regards to any faith, and its practice is certainly for you....until you call yourself a teacher and start charging for your knowledge.

Tamdhu

11th August 2005, 04:51

The backstabbing betrayers are the ones who back-stabbed and betrayed, and they all know exactly who they are. It has nothing to do with being in his organization or not. Anyone, anywhere, anywhen, who trains with an open and honest heart can do no wrong. Shihan Stephen K. Hayes is a perfect example of someone who trains in exactly that manner. His personal life and accomplishments in and around ninpo reflect that beautifully, whatever the nitpickers will say. Bravery, honesty and kyojitsu. The three fundamental elements, all there in one very rare and talented (and fully approachable) package. Ignored because of pettiness, fear and pride.

And the whole 'just ask Hatsumi' angle is bunk, if you ask me. I'd like to put a stake through that. I've spoken with people who have been at his side for 20 years or more, and none of them seem to feel that they know him much better than I do. If he hasn't opened up to them, is he really going to open up to some uppity dork who sticks a video camera in his face and sneeringly asks, "So, should we train with Stephen Hayes or not?"

I have my opinion on that, and you all are welcome to yours. You can take Hatsumi's 'answers' to these questions at face value if you wish. You can believe that you are so close and tight with Hatsumi that he would never for a moment dream of letting you or anyone else lead themselves astray.

I mean it's not like he's a ninja or anything, right?

Thanks all for letting me vent a bit. Nothing personal. Just my turn to stand on the hood of the old Pontiac and do a bit of chest-beating. Seems to be the thing to do these days.

-Kent

Ghost Cat

11th August 2005, 05:38

You can take Hatsumi's 'answers' to these questions at face value if you wish.

My God.

Are you honestly saying that if you ask Hatsumi if he tasked Hayes with being the head of all non- Japan training and that everyone not in Japan should bow to him he would lie?

My God, why? Why do you think he would lie about such a simple question?

And where the heck did you get this idea? Where the heck did you get the idea that everyone who does not accept Hayes as their head is a betrayer to both him and Hatsumi?

I do not want to get into a flame fest about Hayes. But if there is a commonly held belief being spread on the internet that what you say is true, I think I owe it to the truth to dispell the myth.

I know I am not the only one in Japan concerned as to why a person with your length of time in Hayes' orginization is spouting this nonsense. Or why no one in Toshindo seems willing to come forward and say differnetly.

Lockfield

11th August 2005, 08:35

if you may...

let's take this for example: ueshiba founded aikido, which is based on omoto-kyo and daito ryu. sokaku takeda is ueshiba's sensei.

may i ask: do tomiki, shioda, mochizuki, shirata, saotome and other uchi-deshi need to have giri to takeda?

NO.

o-sensei created his own style and that's what he taught.

now...

hayes founded toshindo, based on the bujinkan and mikkyo. it's his style of modern ninjutsu.

so does his students owe hatsumi-soke giri?

hmm...

thye thing i see wrong here is the lineage usage. using the kukishiden name involves both hatsumi and the kuki family. if he were to use it, better add hayes-ha.

the fact that toshindo doesn't act like the BJK is like having the BBD being part or like the BJK.

toshindo is separate from the bujinkan, period.

if not, why does it's founder ignore rules of the soke?

for example:

soke said that train with me as often as you can.

please enlighten me on the last time hayes had a full 30 day training with soke...

another thing:

soke commented on him training 3 times harder, 3x more studying and 3x more spending on the art he so loved.

now, how many quest centers are there?
hayes should be using that income for further training...

that's just an example of how he deviated from the path of his teacher...

so now,

TOSHINDO IS TOSHINDO
BUJINKAN IS BUJINKAN.

so please bear with us in understanding this thread.