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Kevin Myers
15th June 2000, 01:32
What does everyone think about Stanley Pranin going after the illegitimate Daito-Ryu practitioners on the Aikido Journal web site?

Justin Campbell
19th June 2000, 04:31
Glad to see someone trying to weed out the fakes. It is amazing how many fakes there are out there ... and it is hard to find the truth.

JJ Campbell

gnoble
20th June 2000, 14:10
I think that Stanley Pranin has the right, just as everyone else has, to ask these questions concerning this Daito-ryu branch but I think in so doing he has incited a lot people will ill manners to post on their board. This secretary, Kobayashi, is trying to answer the questions that are put to him respectful and disregarding ones that are not. I think we should be a little more concerned with how we conduct ourselves and our OWN training than someone elses.

When an individual from a certain dojo or style post disrespectful comments concerning another branch or style, what does that say about that persons school/style? Should we even be concerned with this? What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students?

My two cents worth...

Greg Noble

20th June 2000, 18:52
Mr Noble,

You stated:

"What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students? "

To answer your question, standing up for the truth is exactly the attitude that I as a dojo cho wish to portray to my students. One of the responsabilities of being an instructor or especially a dojo cho is to speak up and expose those who commit such fraudulent acts as those demonstrated by the individuals in question. To sit quietly by while allowing persons such as these to mislead the public is little better than endorsing such behavior.

I especially respect Stan for stating his mind on this and I personally posted on their bulletinboard immediately upon receiving a personal letter concerning this situation from Mr Pranin. I would hope when presented with blatant fraud that you would stand for the truth and be counted as well. To bad so many in society today shirk from such responsability, I feel it is a form of passive cowardice.

Toby Threadgill,
Soryushin Dojo, Dojo Cho

gnoble
20th June 2000, 20:23
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
[B]Mr Noble,

You stated:

"What if that person is the dojo-cho or chief instructor, is this the kind of attitude he wishes to portray to his students? "

"To answer your question, standing up for the truth is exactly the attitude that I as a dojo cho wish to portray to my students. One of the responsabilities of being an instructor or especially a dojo cho is to speak up and expose those who commit such fraudulent acts as those demonstrated by the individuals in question. To sit quietly by while allowing persons such as these to mislead the public is little better than endorsing such behavior."

Although I agreed that students/instructors should stand up for the truth, if I spent 50% of my time (which is probably about right in my area!) investigating and exposing fraudulent acts in the budo community I would have 50% time left for my students/budo. Then I have to ask myself, "Who am I to judge another style or instructor?" (aka "Budo police")

"I especially respect Stan for stating his mind on this and I personally posted on their bulletinboard immediately upon receiving a personal letter concerning this situation from Mr Pranin. I would hope when presented with blatant fraud that you would stand for the truth and be counted as well. To bad so many in society today shirk from such responsability, I feel it is a form of passive cowardice."

I also respect Stan Pranin for stating his mind. I was most impressed when he wrote an editoral concerning the All Japan Aikido Demonstrations several issues back. But I can't help feel that Mr. Pranin is launching a campaign against this group and he is clearly in the Kondo sensei camp. It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them.
Personally, I have no feeling toward either group since I do not practice Aikijutsu.
Regardless what is said or brought out, an individual if he/she has a mind of their own, will make their own decisions and not base their decisions upon anyone elses.

20th June 2000, 21:59
Mr Noble,

You stated:

" But I can't help feel that Mr. Pranin is launching a campaign against this group and he is clearly in the Kondo sensei camp. "

You are right in this observation and I say good for him. If you're suprised you should not be. Stan's position in this matter ultimately has nothing to do with Kondo and everything to do with and the facts and the truth. This needs to be made abundantly clear. Kondo Katsuyuki was formally appointed Soke Dairi by Takeda Tokimune and awarded the only Menkyo Kaiden ever issued by Takeda Tokimune. Do you dispute these facts. Proof of these facts are publicly available. Proof of the coflicting facts offered by the group inquestion are NOT publicly available because they don't exist. If I was Stan I would align myself with the persons who were not lying about the facts. Good choice on his part huh?

Next you stated:

"It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them."

I wonder .... Have you ever actually hung around many high level Japanese Sensei? Are you personally on a level of confidence with them so that they know you and know where your allegiances lie. This above observation makes me laugh out loud. To point out any further notions of realism or the genuine dynamics that exist between Japanese sensei and western students and or other sensei would be futile so I'll just leave it alone.

And lastly you stated:

"Regardless what is said or brought out, an individual if he/she has a mind of their own, will make their own decisions and not base their decisions upon anyone elses."


No. Not regardless. They absolutely SHOULD regard what is brought out and investigate so they can base their decisions on the facts. You would prefer to base your decisions on the facts and not the misrepresentation of the same I hope?

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill

gnoble
21st June 2000, 03:43
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Next you stated:

"It amazes me that most Japanese tend to shy away from making any derogatory comments concerning other groups while their students, often westerners, tend to do that for them."

I wonder .... Have you ever actually hung around many high level Japanese Sensei? Are you personally on a level of confidence with them so that they know you and know where your allegiances lie. This above observation makes me laugh out loud. To point out any further notions of realism or the genuine dynamics that exist between Japanese sensei and western students and or other sensei would be futile so I'll just leave it alone.

Toby Threadgill

I have "hung around" a few high level Japanese sensei, probably not as many as yourself. My statement is based upon my experience. Yours based upon your own.

Again, my post is not to say who's right vs. who's wrong only the approach that was taken. You may be right concerning Kondo sensei. The majority rules :)

Perhaps I don't feel a need to right every wrong I see. Maybe I'm not at a level where I need to :)

Appreciate the discussion.

Respectfully,

Greg Noble

Neil Yamamoto
21st June 2000, 06:22
I have stayed out of this so far, but something in Mr. Noble's reply tweaked me to post.

I also tend to ignore people who try and increase their own prestige and sucker in students. I for the most part, agree that it's "Buyer beware" in martial arts.

However, this attitude does create problems for all in martial arts in cases of fraudulant claims that are purposefully created to draw in students.

This same attitude of "who cares" in the case of an aikido instructor allowed child abuse to occurr and then several others in martial arts to stand up and defend the aikido instructor as innocent because his aikido was so wonderful.

In any case where some one is making claims as farfetched as the group in discussion or taking advantage of others with fraudulent claims or abuse, then anyone who knows what is taking place should be willing to speak up.

In this case Stan Pranin asks simple questions which the group should be able to answer if their claims are true. I for one am not going to hold my breath waiting for them to produce the evidence of their claims.

I know I can't solve problems for everyone or go and right wrongs. But I can at least protect myself, friends, family, and in cases like this, students from those who would take advantage of them.

gnoble
21st June 2000, 10:58
Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

This same attitude of "who cares" in the case of an aikido instructor allowed child abuse to occurr and then several others in martial arts to stand up and defend the aikido instructor as innocent because his aikido was so wonderful.


Actually, if we are referring to the case in NC the members of his dojo defended him because they thought he did nothing wrong. In other words they believed the abuse did not occurr.


Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

In this case Stan Pranin asks simple questions which the group should be able to answer if their claims are true. I for one am not going to hold my breath waiting for them to produce the evidence of their claims.


Simple questions are fine and it would be interesting to see some evidence.


Originally posted by Neil Yamamoto

I know I can't solve problems for everyone or go and right wrongs. But I can at least protect myself, friends, family, and in cases like this, students from those who would take advantage of them.

Most of my friends and family practice with me :)

I think we agree on people validating their claims. And when asked my opinion on a particular school in our area I give my opinion...tactfully :)

BTW, in the case in NC, the victim was from my original dojo. Very sad.

Greg Noble

Neil Yamamoto
21st June 2000, 19:17
Wasn't refering to the NC case, but another one that occurred on the west coast. The NC case did run through my head though due to some similarities.

There is a long story behind all the Daito Ryu organizations and I only know parts, but I know enough to understand the motivation people have for asking hard questions and finally posting in public to get answers.

Walker
21st June 2000, 20:48
Oh man, here’s my two cents...
I think Stanly has a unique position and a unique responsibility. He is a historian and conduit for historical information in a field that is thin on researchers ‘inthe field.’ He has put in the time and built the reputation and track record to speak in an informative manner on subjects just like this. I know of no one else who has access to S Takeda’s papers, has copies of many Daito Ryu certificates, has talked to first generation students of Sokaku as well as his son, archiving and disseminating good quality information as he goes. If he doesn’t say something who is going to??? and will that person have sufficient resources to back up their statements???
I think Stan is very brave. He opens himself up to all sorts of problems and it would be easy for him to ‘go with the flow’ and let us fend for ourselves. The site in question obviously relies on the assumption that the reader is not familiar enough with Japanese and Daito tradition to know better. They always have the recourse to “well, your not Japanese and an outsider really can’t have any clue about our secret mysterious ways.” Well that is not true and being sneaky and changing the rules won’t work because there are people who have an understanding and are willing to speak.
My pet theory based on nothing at all is that the Japanese branch has little to do with the site and it is mostly the creation of the Italian gentleman. That would explain the strange parsing of terms and distortion of processes. They seem to me to be a product of a non-native for what it’s worth.....

22nd June 2000, 19:53
Hey guys,

I'm totally in agreement wqith Walker here. I believe Stan Pranin is in a unique postition to comment on this and I acknowledge that he does indeed take risks by standing up to be heard on this subject. We in the aiki arts all owe him a great debt. Without his investigation into the roots of Aikido, the average aikidoka would still not fully appreciate how technically linked modern aikido is to its root art of Daito ryu.

I've personally taken some knocks for being so hard on these guys ( in Italy? ). Others have posted more eloquently and posed questions less confrontational than I did. I wonder how truthful the forthcoming responses will be for them. I guess I could have just stood back and not risked entering the controversary altogether or maybe even posted under another name, but thats just not me. I have the masochistic tendency of putting my name right next to my words so there is no mistake about who wrote them.

I think these guys are way out of line and I stated it publicly for the record. As my senior in SYR, David Maynard Sensei has admonished me, if they produce evidence to confirm their claim I will publicly apologize, again with my name right there for all to see. I'll eat crow by the bagfull if it comes to that.... but..... I'm not losing any sleep at night over the possibility of that.

Toby Threadgill

MarkF
25th June 2000, 08:53
I have read both of these sites, Daito-ryu.org and daito ryu.com. The one thing which gave me chills, was the claim of the latter of tracing the routes of the Takeda clan back at least one millenia. While I find the claims on both to be a head-scratcher, that was a sore spot. If true, then I must surely agree with those who told me as a child that all jujutsu ryu can be traced back two to three millenia, but that is just me.

I have absolutely no problem with Pranin's right to post what he wishes on his board, and I too, certainly question the realities of the dot com site, as they certainly make grandiose claims of who has the "real" daito ryu. The interviews with T. Takeda on daito ryu.org are revealing in that they portray the takeda clan, in particular Sokaku with abilities "far and beyone those of mortal men (OK, all superman fans can form a line. The flogging starts when the talking ends)." But with no real connection to the line of succession, surely someone is lying, and possibly perpetrating a fraud, and that is something which anyone has the right to question. If the answers are there, then I will be satisfied (as if anyone cares). If not, well, then "Let Slip the Dogs of War."

Gil Gillespie
27th June 2000, 06:13
This whole realm (taking on and exposing the charlatans)is extremely sensitive and frought with deadfalls and maelstroms. This whole scenario is playing itself out in my own small Orlando FL budo comunity. The worst thing a legitimate dojo can do with these imposters is to respond to (i.e. acknowledge)them.

Toby, I admire and respect you as much as anyone on this website (and still look forward to meeting/ training with you in a few weeks!)yet I cannot endorse your stance that ignoring these folks is cowardice and tacit acknowledgement of the consumately unworthy. Your enemy can answer anything you say except your silence.

When the immortal Lakota Sioux Crazy Horse was made a "shirt wearer" (a special role of responsibility among his people) he was admonished by an elder that he was "a man of the people now. When the dog comes to lift his leg at your lodge you must take no notice, because you belong above all to the people now." OK, so this is a novelized phrase from Mari Sandoz' great great book "Crazy Horse: The Strange Man of the Oglala." The message is clear.

If you as a budoka stand for something and your dojo epitomizes the pursuit of excellence why should you notice "the dogs who lift their legs at your lodge?" The instinctive response is to kick them, at least metaphorically. Don't you only lower yourself if you try to kick a dog? (Who will invariably dodge and leave you looking foolish when you miss. . .) Leave them be.Think that you are a man of the people now. You aspire to something higher. Keep you eye and your spirit there. Take your dojo with you. They will go where you lead, after all!

Cuz it's truer than ever that you don't wanna get into a piss fight with a skunk----no mater who wins, skunk wins.

George Ledyard
27th June 2000, 08:46
I think that those who wish to stretch or alter the truth find a formidable opponent in Stan Pranin. His is a walking encyclopedia and has the professional historian's obsession with detail.

This does illustrate amother issue. I feel that once you decide to post something up on the internet, you have opened those claims up to the scrutiny and comments of the whole world. I wouldn't ever be so rude as to go into soeones own school and question what he was saying but once he throws it out there on the net it's open season. And there is no guarentee that everybody will behave like gentlemen either.

I received an e-mail the other day regarding a teacher here in the Northwest that is billing himself as an 8th Dan. The man who sent it has had dealings with this fellow over the years and when he heard this claim he followed it up by contacting Hombu Dojo in Japan. Their last registered rank from this same fellow was shodan. I think that this is equivalent to the Daito Ryu issue in type if not in importance. As far as I am concerned the moment he made this assertion on the net it becomes something for public consumption, otherwise why put it on the net. These days you damn well better be able to back up what you claim. In the old days there might not be anyone around who knew enough to rebutt ridiculous claims of rank or lineage; you could be a big fake in a small pond so to speak. But on the net, you have an entire world of people who can analyse and comment upon anything you say.

I think it is great. It will make other people think twice about trying to distort the truth if hey see other folks getting in deep when they tried. If you look at the knowedge base and experience level of the folks on this forum, it would be a serious error to try to !!!!!!!! this group. So the moral of this story is that you might still be able to lie locally and get away with it but once you are up on the net it's going to be tough.

27th June 2000, 15:27
Gil,

Thanks for your feedback but I dont agree with you here. Silence in the face of fraud is passively allowing the fraud to occur.

You stated:

"If you as a budoka stand for something and your dojo epitomizes the pursuit of excellence why should you notice "the dogs who lift their legs at your lodge?" The instinctive response is to kick them, at least metaphorically. Don't you only lower yourself if you try to kick a dog?

The answer here is obviously yes but the parallel story about the dog is not in my opinion relevent. You see the dog is not malevolent. The dog is just naturally doing what a dog must do. I guess the argument could be made that these gentlemen in Abarishi and Italy are unable to control themselves and therefore equated with a dog peeing on a lodge. Actually I find that parallel funny....but I'm sure they don't. :)

Toby Threadgill

Kevin Myers
28th June 2000, 16:26
Have you guys seen the posts/responses on the Aikido Journal board by the Seishinkai student?

Neil Yamamoto
28th June 2000, 16:53
Hi Kevin, welcome aboard.

Yep, but when you read the posts on the Aikido JOurnal forum, it states little that is not already known.

What is interesting is how they have changes things to fit their point of view. Major points such as how a menkyo kaiden is viewed by them is one example.

What is comes down to is they are claiming to be the according to their website, the honbu for Daito Ryu but at the same time claiming not to be. How the hell does that work?

In short, they are making claims with no hard evidence to support their claims. George L. has a good point here, post it and you will have people rip it apart to make you back up big claims.

I personally think they are full of smelly stuff, but I could be wrong. If I am then I will apologize when they produce the evidence,but I seriously don't think that will take place.

Kevin Myers
28th June 2000, 19:03
Hi Neil!

I agree, I think these guys are full of **it! It's interesting to see how they either dodge the question/change the subject or make up their own version of history without any documentation.

Nathan Scott
28th June 2000, 19:25
Hey guys,

I'll tell you one thing for sure (from the front line), there is alot about this issue that has not been publicly documented - or at least, is not "commonly" known yet:

1) Kondo Sensei does appear to have reversed the position that he reluctantly took during his interview in 1992. The possibility of this change of mind to me does not necessarily mean that he is not credible, but more likely that evidence came up after that statement that caused him to change his position. Only one way to find out.

2) Mrs. Yokoyama and perhaps others may not have been
totally straightforward regarding the existance or a written will by Tokimune Sensei. If so, this could be because the conditions in which Tokimune Sensei had signed such a will may have been adverse (mentally), and was later considered irrelevant as a result. If that is in fact the case, it would be nice for them to say so, but hopefully we'll find out.

3) It does not seem as though anyone is thrilled about the idea of the older daughter (Mrs. Oshima/Takeda) or in particular her husband assuming the Sokeship. Perhaps Tokimune S. chose the younger daughter because he trusted her more (if that was the case to begin with) and included the older daughter to hopefully reduce tension that would develop between them otherwise.

Personally, I feel that Tokimune Sensei's *intention* is the only consideration. If it can be justified within reasonable doubt that he had intended (while in mentally competant condition) his Daughter(s) to succeed him, then that is the right thing to do. But his brother had tried to push his way through to the Sokeship while he was still alive, and was expelled for his action.

I have a feeling that if we knew the personallities involved in this issue, the truth would become clear.

What a mess.

Regards,

George Ledyard
28th June 2000, 22:05
I will admit that on one level I feel better. It's nice to know that it isn't just a bunch of greedy Americans that are apt to distort these issues. Too bad that anyone feels the need.

28th June 2000, 23:52
(Double post)


[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-28-2000 at 05:56 PM]

28th June 2000, 23:54
Originally posted by Toby Threadgill
Nathan,

I agree with your above post but I would like to point out something that seems to be consistently overlooked. The following is copied directly from the English language homepage at daito-ryu.com. These are only the second and third sentences respectfully and one would assume that they are placed so prominently due to their important nature.

"In his last will (a public act that is available to the public) he appointed his daughter as our next Soke."

"She is the only legitimate person that may claim this position."


The first sentence clearly states that the (mysterious) will is "available to the public". Sooooo I ask, why is this will aparently not available to us. Are we not the public? And next, that he (Tokimune) in this will appointed his daughter (Mrs Yokoyama) as Soke. By their own admission ... Mrs Yokoyama.

The third sentence then states that she (the same Mrs Yokoyama) is the ONLY legitiment person that may claim this position. "ONLY LEGITIMENT PERSON!!!" I remind you that these are the Seishinkai's own words copied directly from their own website.

Since they are so fond of resorting to semantics and obfuscation in their debate let them choke on those for a while. As you have surely noticed they later refute thir own detail on their own website by now claimimng Mrs Oshima is the legitament Soke.

Toby Threadgill

Nathan Scott
29th June 2000, 00:22
Toby-san,

I took the liberty of incorporating your (valid) points to my last post to them. I think you'll like it. The whole post picks out contradictions in Mr. Kobayashi's statements and the actions they are taking/writing.

regards,

Gil Gillespie
29th June 2000, 03:35
Toby,

As I said at the beginning of my post this is a real sensitive area. And we're playing it out here in Orlando. I have nothing but the highest respect for your position of standing up for something. I could be wrong as hell in this and I have changed my views before (see dojo testing topic).

A colleague of mine who came up through the kyu ranks with me failed his nidan test and went off and opened his own dojo. He's a wealthy physician so he could buy a beautiful kamiza, mat, etc. Dojo expenses would never be a factor. At first my sensei viewed this whole thing similar to my post to you. Then this person became a "Godan" in Aikido AND Jujitsu. We smiled and shook our heads when this surfaced.

Now he has come out with a swank professional video (selling for $60!!!) in which all his voodoo Aikido is exhibited with ukes that are of course more stunt men than budoka. He's depicted in seiza cleaning a katana (when he's never had any legit instruction in sword) once even turning the blade into his belly as he seriously wipes with his now shaven head peering on.

At the conclusion of his video he profusely thanks the North Vietnamese master who is the rubber stamper of his paper mill certificates and never once mentions my sensei, under whom he learned the little real Aikido he has and from whom he received the only valid budo certificate he will ever own!

Now my sensei can no longer avoid the dog lifting his leg. He is furious, feels betrayed and belittled, and worst of all he is deeply hurt. He has come full circle in his response to this issue. The only thing of real value in his life, he has told us, is his reputation. I feel that way myself. As an experienced scenic artist I resent the entry-level interlopers who threaten my career, sometimes with photos of my work in their portfolios!!!!

My post revolved around my reluctance to see men of high ideals like my sensei and you getting it on them when they do it in the dirt. The point being ultimately the necessity of responding to these imposters. You see it as essential and even though I disagree I find it impossible to argue. The individual under discussion here has never referred to my sensei or our dojo. Yet he is now perceived as in need of response and "being squared away." You see the charlatans in your orbit the same way.

I hope you will accept this in the spirit of great respect in which it is offered. I apologize for running on so long.
As Dave Mason sang 30 years ago (when I had dark hair and a waistline): There ain't no good guy/ There ain't no bad guy/ There's only you and me and we just disagree.

Looking to meet you up the Path,

Gil

29th June 2000, 16:53
Gil,

The martial arts world is an amazing microcosm isn't it. It's easy for me to ignore some of the charlatans evident around us. On some level my sensei Yukio Takamura considered them useful. Sort of like filter system that kept the trash in a trash can. What raised my ire so much about the Seishinkai is that it's fraud is supported by a legitament high ranking past student of Tokimune. That is what I find shameful and that is what has crossed the line in my mind and made me speak up so publicly. I don't believe I am the martial arts police but that we all are.

In fact why don't we elect Nathan as Chief. He's so eloquent. I wouldn't make it past corporal :)

Toby Threadgill

BTW, Nathan I did like your post.... alot!

Nathan Scott
29th June 2000, 17:29
Ha ha ha!!!

Would that make me something like "Chief Engineer Scott"?

Mabye I missed my calling sitting her making cartoons, huh?

:D

Nathan Scott
29th June 2000, 17:33
Popie,

We're all waiting for you to kindly supply us with your organizational background. I don't think your going to get much discussion out of anyone about anything on this list unless you start coming clean.

And lay off attacking everyone. Toby hasn't said squat to you.

Ron Tisdale
29th June 2000, 19:48
Hi Nathan,

Say, didn't you see that sign on the way in?

"Please don't feed the trolls..."

:)

Ron Tisdale

George Kohler
29th June 2000, 20:56
Mr. Popie,

Please use your FULL name!

Ron Tisdale
30th June 2000, 16:24
Ok, I'm guilty. My curriosity has just gotten the better of me.
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May be Mr. Tisdale we should go over to your BB and talk about this.
_________________________________________________________
And what BB would that be? *I* don't have one. I do post on RMA, www.aikidojournal.com, and here. My posts (and any subsequent discussions) are a public record, open to all, and all are welcome. Yet *I* host no "BB"s myself, so am mystified by your statement. Could you be more specific?

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That is you were not highly liked here at one time.
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I don't know that I am "highly liked" now (and don't really care:)). And didn't care "at one time" whether I was liked or not. As far as the vast majority of posters here, I am a pion. I am lowly ranked, fair to middlin on my best day on the mat, and content to struggle on day by day trying to improve. As such, I come here to learn. The few things I think I have a handle on I share. I *try* to do so intelligently, however. And I try to do some research to avoid asking stupid questions, or annoying people.
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If I remember right you didn't get along with the people you seem to now. That is you butted heads and had opinions.
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Well, lets see. Could you please name some of the people I've "butted heads" with? I do remember one gentleman in the CQC area: I made some presumptions, and was called on them. The gentleman and I resolved our differences amicably. I recall some discussions with Arthur as well; he and I go back aways on RMA. Again, I believe the discussions were amicable. Hey, I've always had opinions, and been willing to share them. No one here views that as a crime:), not even when you do it.

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Alluding to not everyone is a suck -up. Metaphorically speaking. And since then have taken advantage of the crash and changes on this BB. I am alluding to you are jumping on a bandwagon, attack me without provication because it has become the "in thing" to get kudos from other posters.
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I don't think the other posters have given me any kudos (nor would I want any). I made my comments about and to you because they were my opinions. You are rude, obnoxious, uninformed, and your mindless dribble brings down the quality of this board. Suck up? Oh well, if thats the worst insult you can bring to the show, have at it.

And as for taking advantage of the crash; I was having some really great discussions before the crash...I hope the old material becomes available soon...I'd like to continue them.

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Now, Mr. Tisdale all metaphorically speaking. Let's go to your board and talk hypocrisy shall we sir? People in glass houses (house of Winsor if you like) shouldn't throw stones because they see the other kids doing it. Therefore your unsolicated personal flame is uncalled for. Otherwise, I suggest you stop flaming me, or is there another reason for your numberous unsolicited flames sir?
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Anyone who doesn't want to get flamed should take good advice when its given (and it was given, to you, by several people). Perhaps I've "piled on" a bit. It certainly has not been hypocritical; I stand by everything I've said. Oh, and the word is numerous, which my "flames" have not been. But you are right about one thing; as annoying and useless as your drivel has been, it has not been directed at me, so back in the closet I go.
Ron Tisdale

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Mommy didn't raise me stupid, just obnoxiously forthcomming and opinionated. "I am not worthy! I am not worthy!"
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You really shouldn't feed people opportunities like this one....they are *very* hard to pass up!
RT

George Ledyard
1st July 2000, 23:58
The whole issue of what do we choose to pay attention to and make a stand is always interesting. People making claims to dubious martial parentage and those with miraculously appearing ranks (you have probably seen my posts mentioning our Aikido Eighth Dan here in the Northwest)seem to generate a lot of attention and ire.

In some ways it is interesting that false claims to credentials seems to upset people more than the various ethical issues that confront people in leadership positions in the arts. People turn a blind eye to Senseis who are sexually active with their female students, the alcohol issue is often talked about privately but seldom aired publicly, abusive violence on the part of various teachers goes unremarked in public forum. These are all important issues, possibly of more import than someone faking his rank (which usually just results in some clown with a big number and average skill making him look silly). I think people hold off because they don't want to get involved in issues that could easily look like character assasination. Yet when you have an internet discussion of certain teachers bogus claims to lineage and / or rank, you are already calling his character into doubt. Yet people charge right in on one hand and hesitate on the other. What does that say?

6th July 2000, 17:55
Nathan and all of you guys,


LOLOLOL.

Can you believe what Nathan Scott did here. That BOOGER! This is a quote from the daito-ryu .com site under such scrutiny. He posted:

" However, dispite my rising suspician, I have appreciated your participation and have tried to be as polite as I can be - which it seems you would agree is somewhat more than some of my colleagues.
If you find this difference in approach to be offensive, I'd be happy to approach Mr. Threadgill to assume my end of the disussion! :-) "

Thanks alot Nathan! :) To be used as such a threat! I... I ...I feel so taken advantage of.... like a... uh sledghammer. So nice I could have been of such wonderful service to you. Anytime ...No ... No... No Anytime.

:)

Toby

Nathan Scott
7th July 2000, 05:17
Hi Toby-san,

Oh, you noticed that part?!?

HA ha ha ha!!! I was laughing me arse off when I wrote that.

You said what we all wanted to say, but I was determined to get some answers out of them if possible. I am most "fascinated" by their response to the proof I posted on their board. Hmmmm...

That reminds me. It's time to back my favorite dojo secretary into a corner.

Thanks for adding to my already large amusement! Hee hee hee...

I slay myself.

phil
22nd July 2000, 04:05
I am new to this website and was told about it by one of my students. The question of rooting out false practitioners and especially "grand masters" is important. Two examples from my own experience might highlight the problem. In the small East Texas town where I teach, a local person decided to say that he was a 5th dan in Daito ryu. This was the result of two different workouts with a person who was supposed to be a Daito ryu master. After 2 workouts, gee a 5th dan. This cheapens the arts of all of us who sincerely practice a martial way. Worse, people go and get hurt by this person and instead of pursuing a legitimate martial art, they see martial arts as a bad experience. The second example is from our U.S. Yoseikan Budo. A book was written and the author claimed to be a grandmaster of his own style and a third dan in our style. Those who knew him know that he never rose beyond brown belt in Yoseikan. The publisher was put on notice of the problem and has been cooperative, but the damage is done. Now, everytime this "grandmaster" does a seminar, our organization gets dinged! Our Yoseikan style is one of the very oldest of the aiki styles and our creator has close ties to daito ryu, including being called back by daito ryu on several occaisions to correct techniques for them. Our international organization, based now in France has strict requirements for being a licensed instructor and Europeans have a hard time understanding the problems we have in this country with fly-by-night instructors because the martial arts are regulated by the state. I like being free in the US but maybe some regulation would really help.

Nathan Scott
22nd July 2000, 04:36
Hello Phil-san,

Welcome to the forum!

Could we ask you to either post with your full, real name or perhaps include it in your signature file?

I concur with your post. Daito ryu is the hot style to be studying these days, so there are alot of false claims being made. That is the beauty of the internet - easy to weed someone out!

I'm curious though about your comment that Yoseikan Budo is one of the oldest of the aiki styles. If this is the same group I am familiar with, it was founded by Mochizuki Sensei, who was an extraordinary Budoka in Aikido, Judo and several other arts. But his Yoseikan Budo is recently founded, and is in fact, one of the *newest* arts to incorporate aiki.

Also, if we are talking about Mochizuki Sensei, it seems unlikely that any of the Daito ryu branches (of which there are five major recognized branches - which one are you talking about?) would have called him in for technical advice. All the branches I'm thinking of are or were headed at that time by pretty senior exponents in the art.

Please elaborate on your statement.

Regards,

phil
22nd July 2000, 05:02
Hi Nathan,

I can understand the confusion. Minoru Mochizuki was a student of O Sensei in 1930. He established the Yoseikan Hombu in Shizuoka in 1931. Most people are more familiar with his son Hiroo Mochizuki who, until 1992, was building the Yoseikan World Federation and Yoseikan Budo in France and Europe. Minoru and Hiroo are both practitioners of multiple disciplines but it was the father, Minoru who was sent by Kano. In 1992 (the change was not made public by Minoru until several years later)Minoru gave control of the entire organization and style to his son. Our U.S. association affiliated with the Yoseikan World Federation in 1996. The video tape I have was confirmed by Mr. Steel (Daito Ryu in Tokyo)and is a tape of a Goodwill Demonstration involving dojo from across Japan. I honestly do not know who Minoru consulted with specifically because he had contact with so many of these different groups. As a side note, Minoru Mochizuki now lives with his son in France and still attends workouts to watch his son and grandson, still goes for walks with the family and, according to the grandson, really hates his wheelchair any time he has to use it. The effect of a great budo heart lies in the life of this man, he is 93 years old and still
discussing technique with his son on a daily basis. I understand he even took a small tumble on one of his walks, used his ukemi, got up and kept walking. I want to be able to do that at 65! As soon as I figure out how to get my full name on the line I will submit it, but Phil Farmer is correct.

Brently Keen
22nd July 2000, 07:26
Phil,

Welcome to e-budo. Yoseikan Budo, founded by Minoru Mochizuki sensei was one of the oldest "aikido" organizations, however it is a modern budo and most definitely is not one of the very oldest aiki styles. As you stated Mochizuki sensei was a student of Ueshiba sensei (the founder of aikido) in the 30's. I believe that the first rank Mochizuki sensei received from Ueshiba may have been in Daito-ryu. Since Ueshiba was still teaching Daito-ryu at that time, it makes sense that Mochizuki may have some Daito-ryu influence.

However it is extremely unlikely, even unbelievable that any Daito-ryu organizations would ever ask Mochizuki sensei to critique, much less correct their techniques.

The video tape you are referring to is the 1992 Public Daito-ryu Demonstration commemorating the 50th anniversary of Sokaku Takeda sensei's passing at the Nihon Budokan. The demonstration featured some of the top Daito-ryu instructors, and some guests were invited including Onoha Itto-ryu kenjutsu master Takemi Sasamori. Several representatives of modern arts derived from Daito-ryu were also invited, and these included the Aikikai Honbu dojo and Yoseikan Budo. Some of my seniors were present at the demonstration and recalled with humor that Mochizuki sensei's lecture seemed to never end.

As an interesting side note - almost all the techniques (95%) performed on the whole tape were jujutsu techniques, not aikijujutsu techniques. At that time in 1992, aiki techniques were still rarely demonstrated publically.

Brently Keen

Dan Harden
22nd July 2000, 12:58
Perhaps this is a misunderstanding on both parties versions. While I agree Brently, that it is unlikely that someone in Daito ryu would ask Mochizuki questions about technique regarding "Daito Ryu", perhaps he gave out some advice on sword.
At the particular demonstration you are talking about a certain sensei demonstrated sword and was chastised by Mochizuki sensei who said something along the lines of "Daito ryu people not knowing much about sword." He then had his men demonstrate sword.
I got this version from two Daito ryu people there and had it confirmed years later by the sensei who was chastised.
I am confidant that all men present respected Mochizuki's age and his commitment to the arts. Which is why they would put up with the old mans lecturing :-). Perhaps Mochizuki's Judo and his Katori Shinto ryu should be looked at as his main arts. If you look into his involvement with Daito ryu, it is minimul. As to his studies with with Ueshiba sensei, my understanding was they were short and then Mochizuki moved away. While (some)of the techniques look similar they are jujutsu and do not appear to demonstrate Daito ryu Aiki.
This may clarify the issue of why Phil thinks Mochizuki was asked about technique, and why Brently thinks (as do I) no one in Daito ryu would do so.

Regards
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 07-22-2000 at 07:12 AM]

Kevin Myers
27th July 2000, 14:54
The Aikido Journal web site is starting to post Kondo Sensei's answers to the questions presented to him by Stan Pranin in regards to who should lead Daito-Ryu and the Daito-Ryu.com individuals. Looks like it will be good stuff!!!

MPraskey
31st August 2000, 05:40
After many years of waiting I've finally
made it to Japan. I'm trying to find a school
of Aiki-jutsu in Kyoto, specificlaly one that teaches
all the of the classical weapons of the style at the
higher levels. I belive that particular branch awnsers
to the hombu in in Abashiri and I recall that they
had a branch in Kyoto (Kyoto kai) but I have no information
beyond that. Any information anyone could give me would
be vastly appreciated.

MarkF
31st August 2000, 09:15
Welcome to E-budo, Mr. Praskey and on having the pleasure of living in Japan.

Before deciding on a school of daito ryu aikijujutsu, you may want to read Mr. Stanley Pranin's open letter to the webmaster of http://www.daitoryu.com and the site of Kondo sensei's http://daito-ryu.org . It is an ongoing and fascinating discussion with Kondo-S. now responding to questions put to him, and questions put to those at Abashiri.

I do not do aiki Jujutsu, but it may, either help you to make your decision or confuse it more, I am not sure. The open letter from Mr. Pranin is at http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000010.html

Good luck!

Mark

Nathan Scott
11th November 2000, 00:54
Here are some quotes taken from the Seishin Abashiri Dojo web page. These are new additions:


Classic schools (ko-ryu in Japanese) are always directed by a Soke. Any School that is not directed by a Soke can no longer be considered a Ko-ryu by that sole fact. Thus anyone claiming to direct or to represent a classical school, without being its soke is exposing his ignorance of Japanese culture and traditions to the public, and should thus be regarded suspiciously.

I've been looking into the whole ryu-ha succession and Iemoto system trends since bashing the issue around with SAD a few months ago. The above statement is simply wrong. It may or may not apply to Daito ryu specifically, but is wrong to impose on the history of Koryu in Japan.


In Japan, as in Europe, a title may only be passed along a blood lineage. The title of Soke is no exception. Only the son of a previous Soke may thus claim such a position legitimately.

Nope.


In some rare exceptions the Soke would adopt a senior student and thus appoint him as next Soke.

This is closer...


The role of the Soke was (and still is) one of absolute control and rule over the school, and the person in this position should be in [possesion] of the School's transmission scrolls (densho in Japanese).

Agreed.


One would only smile at such attempts (that only expose the ignorance and the rather large ego of who makes them) if it were not that such poor attempts mislead the general public who is less than fully aware of our School's legitimate succession lineage.

The entire rant on their web page is obviously directed at Kondo Sensei. That's fine, except you can't say that their squabble applies to the way all ryu-ha in Japan are run. Again, that is wrong.


1. Japan's culture and traditions do not allow for any misinterpretation:

a classic school may only be represented by a family member. The Soke.

Wrong. Perhaps Daito ryu, but not all "classic schools".


2. Takeda Tokimune (the last Soke) clearly stated in his last will that his daughter was to succeed him as Head Master.

That remains to be seen. Kondo S. stated in the most recent translation of his statement that no such will exists. They have still not presented one shred of evidence to support their position. They have also not responded to any of the posts on their BBS for quite a while.

I still intend to wait until the complete statement by Kondo S. is translated before re-entering discussions with the SAD group, but I have to say they are not looking very convincing the more they talk.

Any comments on the above?



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 11-10-2000 at 07:10 PM]

Walker
13th November 2000, 17:41
These half truths, shadings, misrepresentations, distortions, lies, etc... may have gone over ten years ago, but not today. The SAD group is living in the past as far as pulling the wool over gaijin eyes. Plus I see the days where tongues are held (even in Japan) are over.

As far as I know, for example, Shindo Muso Ryu has no hereditary soke position. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Add to that their extreme protestations and it just gets pathetic.

Nathan Scott
13th November 2000, 18:06
Agreed.

I hesitate to comment on SMR, as I only have a passing knowledge of their politics. Mrs. Skoss or other members would surely have more reliable comments.

Mr. Kobayashi was pretty condescending to another poster who challenged their position, tearing up his Japanese etc. While the poster was a little off on a few points, they of course chose to focus soley on the cultural/language mistakes and use that to discredit his ligitimate concerns.

So far he has not tried that with me, but I am not concerned about that. I have a growing stack of good resources in Japanese language; apparently more than they do considering the ignorance of their new rant.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
13th November 2000, 18:25
Hi guys,

I think this whole abashiri nonsense is pretty much moot. Now, having met Kondo S., spent time hearing his point of view, and seeing the quality of his technique, I just don't see the point in debating with people who obviously are twisting facts to their own best interests. Perhaps the details of "sokeship" would hold more interest for me if Kondo S. was trying to proclaim himself soke, but since he's not, those remarks are really off topic.

I'd have to say that anyone who was making character attacks on the man that I met this weekend, is way off base. Not having seen their technique, I guess I can't speak to that comparison, but I do have a pretty strong inclination to go with what I saw/experienced. People looking to make a choice should see/train with Kondo S. before being taken in by the claims of others (and that goes for more than just the group in abashiri).

Ron Tisdale

Nathan Scott
13th November 2000, 18:34
Hi Ron-san,

While you have a good point, there are many who will be duped into believing that if the SAD group can claim "honbu" status for all of Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, and it is allowed to remain uncontested, then it must be true.

That is why it either needs to be handled legally in private (which it may or may not be right now), or hashed out pubicly for all to see and judge for themselves based on facts and evidence presented.

I agree about the Sokeship issue. Perhaps they are referring to Aikibudo in particular. Or, maybe they think the general public does not know this small point! :)

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
13th November 2000, 19:01
Hi Nathan-san!

"Perhaps they are referring to Aikibudo in particular. Or, maybe they think the general public does not know this small point!"

Well, if you are refering to the differentiation between Daito ryu Aikibudo and Daito ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu; no the general public is not very much aware in my opinion. I do believe that Kondo S's new book will help to make the distinction a little clearer, but I think more will have to be said about this.

Ron (still in a *lot* of pain from the weekend) Tisdale

Carlos Estrella
22nd November 2000, 05:36
I, like many folks here, have come to question the claims of the Abashiri Daito Ryu folks, but one question has been largely ignored (unless I've missed something - if so, please point me in the right direction)... since many of the senior folks in the Abashiri group come from the Daitokan originally, how good are they? Has anyone seen their technique "up close?"

Thank God (or your own divine power if you have one) for people like Kondo Sensei, Kiyama Sensei here in California, the folks in the Takumakai, Kodokai and all the other associations teaching true Daito Ryu as passed on to their founders by Takeda Sokaku or his senior students... my main concern here though, is whether we're spinning our own wheels debating the legitimacy of one group over another.

From a legal standpoint, I'm sure Kondo Sensei has the best claim. From a technical standpoint, I'm also sure he has a legitimate claim to the complete Daito Ryu curriculum as passed down by Takeda Tokimune Sensei. I'm not so sure about all the Abashiri bashing I've seen here and elsewhere, regardless of their claims. Granted, I'm not fond of all of the history rewrites coming out of Abashiri - then again... most of us weren't there when those folks broke away from Takeda-san's school, nor do we know why they did.

Forgive me for such a long post... comments?

Carlos

MarkF
22nd November 2000, 12:15
I'm not sure it matters how good they are on these threads, but aiki-bashing is a heck of a lot of fun, and you just may learn something, too, in this type of process. But there usually are little bits of information which just nip at you, meaning you are on the right side.

It is one thing to believe any art has an 1100 years of existence (as in the Dai Nippon Butokukai), but it is entirely different to make the claim, and then attempt to back it up.

Surely after that length of time, there wouldn't be an argument thus, we get to bash someone.

C'mon! Pick a side and "choose off.":shot:

Mark

glad2bhere
22nd November 2000, 14:34
Dear Carlos:

I think I know what you are saying, but I have not been able to find anything in any of the material I have read on this Net or AIKIDO JOURNAL.COM to suggest this struggle is anything other than political. As an outsider I honestly wish that occasionally this would become a technical argument, hoping that MA could somehow benefit. So far, no such luck. At the risk of over-simplifying a very complex dynamic it seems like a simple case of people not "working and playing well together". Since I am on the outside of all of this I DO wonder if the root of the issues that were bandied about on another string regarding Roppokai and the NC people might not have simply been similar political problems. And if THAT is accurate, does that reduce traditional MA to nothing more than an elaborate pyramid scheme with room for only one leader at the top and everyone else in support. I know in the Korean arts people will start a "new pyramid" (organization, kwan,school) at the drop of a hat.

Best Wishes and Happy Thanksgiving to Everyone,

Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Ron Tisdale
22nd November 2000, 14:48
The only technical comment I have seen is at the following link:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum21/HTML/000010.html

on the aikido journal website. The comment was made by Stanly Pranin, who (I think) is in a better position than many to make such a comment. I do think the technical issue should be at least addressed. It is part of the total picture.

Ron Tisdale

glad2bhere
22nd November 2000, 17:40
Dear Ron:

I completely missed that exchange. Thanks for bringing it forward.

"...As an afterthought, I had a chance to view the videotapes published by BAB Japan performed by senior members of the Abashiri Seishinkai group with which you folks will be familiar. Those demonstrating are the same individuals mentioned on numerous occasions in this forum. I was really disappointed with the physicality of the execution of techniques, the lack of precision and application of "aiki." I think a comparison of these tapes with those of Kondo Sensei would be enlightening.

Stanley Pranin ..."

This is what I have experienced in Hapkido. With the division of the art along political lines, the art itself is becoming increasingly physical such that the more subtle biomechanics are not just being disregarded, but actually lost. There is much to indicate that aspect of the Korean Yu Sool were every bit as sophisticated as the Japanese arts regarding unbalancing, displacement, etc., but that this material has steadily eroded. As I mentioned in an e-mail some months ago, I had originally taken a dim view of the "excessively protective" nature of the Ryu-ha system in Japan. However, whatever political incorrectness the system might have seems to be more than offset by the exceptional way it has archived the arts for posterity, yes?

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
http://www.midwesthapkido.com

Carlos Estrella
22nd November 2000, 19:07
Thanks to all who have replied so far...

As far as "picking sides," my personal loyalties in regards to Daito Ryu, are to the ones who introduced me to it, namely Dave Lamond, a student of Roy Goldberg of the Daito Ryu Kodokai, and Kiyama Sensei, Kyoju Dairi of the Daito Ryu Kodokai, whose technique was awesome to both see and feel.

I have great respect for Kondo Sensei, as he is disseminating the art as he was taught to by the reviver's son Takeda Tokimune. I also have great respect and admiration for folks in the Aiki community who put politics aside and attend seminars like the one in Maryland, so they can experience real Daito Ryu. I disagree, respectfully of course, with the folks in Abashiri, who seem hell-bent on pushing their version of Daito Ryu history, and from what I can see, hell-bent on showing techniques that (according to posts here) seem less-than-satisfactory.

I've been unavoidably prevented from shugyo in Daito Ryu for some time, but when scheduling permits (and I can figure out how to balance classes at Guy Power's Kenshinkan Dojo, trips to San Luis Obispo to practice at the Kodokai's dojo there, and work and family...), I hope that all the bickering doesn't do to Daito Ryu what it has done to other arts represented here (no offense to practitioners of Ninjutsu, but mention "Ninja" outside of this forum and see what reaction you get).

Again, thanks to the folks who commented. I hope to run into some of you folks at a seminar sometime.

Yours truly,

Carlos

Nathan Scott
22nd November 2000, 21:15
Hello all,

When political/historical debate occurs, there is always a percentage of the public that ask "does it really matter"? and "can't we just train".

The fact is that it does matter to many, and in particular to instructors of the systems and those that are charged with continuing the integrity and transmission line of the given art. It may be unpleasant to observe when hashed about publicly, but sometimes that is necessary (as in this case) and for those not interested or bothered by it there is nothing stopping them from not following the debate.

If it bothers you, then don't put energy into following the issues. Concentrate on training and hope that everything works out somehow for the best. I'm not getting down on anyone specifically, just offering some common sense regarding this subject in general because you can be guarenteed to field it in any given political/historical debate.


my main concern here though, is whether we're spinning our own wheels debating the legitimacy of one group over another.

That could be, but thats a risk the people involved in the debate are taking with their own time and energy.

I believe it is the responsibility of those that have in Budo longer than some others to help guide new comers to qualified, properly credentialed instruction. Why? Because new comers have not followed the arts and participated in such discussions enough in most cases to make educated decisions as to what and who to train under.

Since the MA's are currently unregulated by an outside body (thank god), the responsibility falls within the existing Budo community to assist in this regard. New students have a right to receive (if accepted as a student) instruction in the art they believe they have joined and under an instructor who is properly and truthfully credentialed. If an instructor cannot provide verification/resource for verification of such (within reason), then they should not be teaching the public.

This can be as simple as offering someone advice on *how* to properly evaluate a dojo and instructor. This is news to alot of people.

I am not interested in starting a "witch hunt" personally (there is already people doing that!), but I am interested in Daito ryu and those that claim to represent the Takeda family of which the art has been passed through. This is a major claim, and I kind of fell into the debate. But as long as I'm here I intend to follow through, personally.

I know of one person who was an instructor of another style that withdrew from the art(s) he was studying to conform to the requirements for being accepted as an uchi-deshi at the Seishin Abashiri Dojo. This is not necessarily a bad thing if he is happy, and that is what he was looking for. But I wonder if he would have done so if it turned out that the SAD group's credentials/claims were not as they had published? Maybe, maybe not. But there are alot of people who will be attracted - perhaps falsely - to the SAD group if it turns out that their claims are unsubstantiated or in conflict with facts.

In addition, allowing other schools to claim "honbu" status of a style does in fact aid in splintering the style and causing greater confusion and problems. It is in fact best for the tradition to nip these types of claims in the butt before they are allowed to gain influence and perceived credibility.

BTW, I'm still trying really hard to keep an open mind to the possibility that SAD will come forth with documentation to back up any of the claims they have made. We'll see.


I'm not so sure about all the Abashiri bashing I've seen here and elsewhere, regardless of their claims. Granted, I'm not fond of all of the history rewrites coming out of Abashiri - then again... most of us weren't there when those folks broke away from Takeda-san's school, nor do we know why they did.

I haven't seen *any* Abashiri bashing so far, aside from some initial comments made on their BBS several months ago. Everything else has been restrained and fairly objective. If I've missed bashing sessions, please let me know. The fact is, they are ex-students of Takeda T., and I think should be respected as such to some degree. They simply should justify their public claims that are in conflict with another person's established claim or remove them. I have no interest in seeing them dragged through the mud personally. Not everyone is going to "get it" from a technical standpoint.

Also, we were'nt there for the occurances that led to the situation we are discussing now. But, it did not happen that long ago and there is really no reason why this subject can't be settled. Mr. Pranin has been personally present and involved in several significant events in relation to this. We are not talking about hundreds of years ago. However, the longer we wait the harder it gets to settle these issues.


And if THAT is accurate, does that reduce traditional MA to nothing more than an elaborate pyramid scheme with room for only one leader at the top and everyone else in support.

The "pyramid scheme" you mention may be a variant used in some commercial MA organizations, but this is a bit different than power structures used in Japan. In Japan, the heirarchy/organizational structure is traditionally pyramid shaped. There is not necessarily a scam to be associcated with this, it just differs from the more democratic structure we are accustomed to in the west.

I would discourage a confusing pyramid style scams to the heirarchy in many Japanese traditions, IMHO. It is simply another way of doing things (for better or worse).

Hope this helps a little!

Happy Thanksgiving,

gnoble
23rd November 2000, 03:05
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nathan Scott

I believe it is the responsibility of those that have in Budo longer than some others to help guide new comers to qualified, properly credentialed instruction. Why? Because new comers have not followed the arts and participated in such discussions enough in most cases to make educated decisions as to what and who to train under.

Nathan,

I agree with giving new comers advice on choosing an instructor but how do we/you define a "qualified, properly credentialed instructor/instruction"?

For example, aikido; do we define this qualified instructor as having a certificate from one of the large organizations out there? Or only the Aikikai Hombu dojo. What about independent instructors?

Food for thought. Didn't mean to get away from the main topic :)

Nathan Scott
23rd November 2000, 04:00
I don't think there's a correct, simple answer for this. My answer is it is a judgement call on the part of the person giving the advice. The call could be made on verified certification, whether the instructor appears to have the ability and knowledge of someone of his credentials could be an indicator, and what kind of reputation the person has.

If it is a style you are familiar with, you may be able to offer your "experienced" opinion as to the skill and teaching manner of the person, if you view a class.

An opinion is still an opinion, and the interested party can do with it what they like.

I wasn't trying to sound exclusive or "white man's burden" in my last post, just pointing out that MA has no governing/regulating body outside of ourselves to discourage frauds and whackos from opening up shop and providing a liability to unsuspecting students.

Regards,

Doug Taylor
9th December 2000, 00:02
This is my first post on this web board. Please excuse me in advance, if my post is improperly formatted in any way. Over the past few months, I have been a frequent and quiet observor to many of the various discussions and topics that have been expressed here on this site. Many of the posts I have found to be very informational and helpful, as they pertain to various aspects in relation to a particular Japanese Martital Art. The internet is truly a wonderful tool!!!

I must openly state that I am a junior student of the "Seishinkai Group" or SAD as it has been listed by many on this site. I understand to some, that this automatically makes me suspicious, suspect, or a fake. So I feel compelled as a creditability issue, to share with you that my previous teacher for over 10 years, prior to joining the school was a Sandan under the late Katsumi Yonzawa Sensei. I do, however, realize that this does not make me any sort of expert on Daito-ryu. I am not expert, but only a student!!! This post is my own, and of a personal nature. I do not speak for anyone or for the school, but only make what I think is a reasonable observation.

Furthermore, it is not my intention to offend anyone by my statements here. I do feel strongly that there are more important things other than "the politics." Especially when politics start skewing certain preceptions and aspects as they relate to technical abilities. The topic here that has been offered for discussion is "What is the Legitimacy of the Abashiri Group's Technique."

This is a very valid question. Those of us that have followed various web boards, assorted publications, and other informational venues have seen the wide and sometimes heated arguements as they relate to the current situation in mainline Daito-ryu. In a nut shell, many of the disccussions have centered around either succession or paperwork issues. While both are very important and show acheivment, to rule out the fact that senior students of the former Daitokan, whomever they might be, would not have a legitimate level of techincal ability, is unreasonable to me. Especially when many of the senior students, including those of the "Seishinkai Group", were direct and daily attending students of the late Tokimune Takeda Sensei for periods of 30-40 years.

In fact, Mr. Sano and Mr. Kato, both at different times, lived in the Daitokan over several years each. In fact, in 1988, when Tokimune Takeda Sensei's health started to decline, it was Mr. Kato that intially taught in the Daitokan when Tokimune Takeda couldn't, due to health reasons. Additionally, for me, I find it almost unbelievable to think that these senior students or any others not mentioned here who regulary attended daily instruction under the late soke, didn't obtain a high level of techinal ability is very unreasonble.

While I feel that Mr. Kondo is a fine practioner, student, and instructor who is, in my personal opinion, an asset to Daito Ryu; the fact remains if for no other reason he lived a great distance away from the source. Please do not mis-interput my intentions here. I am not trying to discrerdit a fine man like Mr. Kondo. But, those of us here in America, should be able to understand with such distance between ourselves and our teachers.

Simply put, we all should realize that as serious students of the arts, we have had repeated and direct exposure on a very regular basis. We should have at least as good if not better in some cases, superior technical abilities than those of distance. This is just a realistic and sensiable approach to the issue of legitimate abilities of these senior students.

It is however,unforunate, that many issues such as technical abilities are tied to political interests. I have found over the years that with politics, as with most important issues, there often is two sides to every story, with much truth attatched to both.

As for me, I wish both groups would or could find a way to re-unite, because we in Daito-ryu are all losing out in someway. Over my twenty years in the martial arts, I have never taken or had the opportunity to train with Mr. Kondo. In fact, I never really was afforded such an opportunity.

I have seen many if, not all, of Mr. Kondo's video tapes on Daito-ryu. He seems to be a fine practioner of the art, from my limited exposure. I have also seen the footage from the "Seishinkai" tapes. I think both are a fine resource for perservation aspects of Daito-Ryu Jujutsu techniques.

Personally, I don't believe that one can say based on video tapes that either my teachers, or Mr. Kondo's group, are more superior. There are all sorts of photographic procedures and staging that can enhance the quality of a particular production. I like to think of video footage as a representation of certain techniques, rather than a judging instrument for the quality or caliber of a particular pactinioner or group.

In closing, I would just like to add that I will continue to be a serious student of Daito-ryu, trying to remain as open-minded as the next when it comes to all of the politics involved. Please feel free to respond on this web board or to write to me personally at DTaylor901@home.com. Thank you very much for the opportunity to voice both my opinions and concerns.

Carlos Estrella
10th December 2000, 18:16
Since I was the one to start this posting, I felt compelled to respond to your comments.

First, thank you for giving us all an opinion from a member of the group in Abashiri. Regardless of the differences between the many practitioners within the many different "sects" of Daito Ryu, we are still in many ways part of the same budo family, and it's good to hear from a "budo brother."

Second, since you've seperated (or attempted to seperate) the politics from the technique, let me stick with that premise... you said "(w)e should have at least as good if not better in some cases, superior technical abilities than those of distance." That's all well and good, but Kano and others in your group have been seperated by death, from Tokimune Sensei, and by their resignations from Tokimune Sensei's dojo (the resignations have been posted on the forum in the Aikido Journal website) for several years. Also, to my knowledge, the Menkyo Kaiden possessed by Kondo Sensei is the ONLY complete transmission of the Daito Ryu "curriculum," which leads me to believe that since no one in your organization has received the Menkyo Kaiden, no one in your organization (even those who "taught in the Daitokan when Tokimune Takeda couldn't") is able to legitimately say they are capable of teaching the entire curriculum. (It's like me saying that because I was a substitute teacher I'm now qualified to be the principal.)

Like you, I would like to see all of us get together and settle this in a positive fashion. I am a Daito Ryu newbie, but I am not stupid... I know that the odds of Kano and Kondo Sensei's getting together for a beer are slim, but I DO believe that if ALL the groups did as Tokimune Sensei wished and nurtured a legitimate headmaster vs. bickering about it, the style would both be stronger and flourish as Aikido has. As for th "legitimacy of the technique," since I haven't seen techniques of your association performed by members of that association, I can't comment. What I CAN comment on is this: there are several organizations who learned Daito Ryu indirectly or directly from Takeda Sokaku, including yours. Aren't they ALL showing legitimate techniques AS THEY WERE TAUGHT THEM BY SOKAKU TAKEDA? If Kodo Sensei was shown more Aiki, or Hisa Sensei was already a talented Sumo wrestler, or his son Tokimune was given things no one else was... didn't they ALL disseminate Daito Ryu? If so, who received the Menkyo Kaiden from Sokaku Sensei? Who did those Mankyo holders give a Menkyo Kaiden to?

Regardless of the issues discussed here, I am honored to speak to you on this subject, and await your reply.

Respectfully,

Carlos Estrella

Doug Taylor
12th December 2000, 01:04
Dear Mr. Estrella,

Thank you for responding to my post. You are correct that regardless of various and beliefs that serious students of all arts should enjoy exchanges. I must admit that your initial post intrigued me. For me, it was a simple question as I interpreted it. The question is "Do these former senior students of the late Tokimune Takeda have skills?" This question has been approached on various other boards, but I have found that again and again it turns into a political issue and not a skills issue.

As I have previously stated the former senior students (and others not mentioned) studied for extended periods of 30-40 years, some daily, prior to the late Tokimune Takeda Soke's death. A question that one has to keep asking themselves who has not had the opportunity to be trained by these particular senior students is "How can they not be highly skilled?" When one thinks about the amount of time, location, and direct daily exposure to Tokimune then common sense, not politics, should dictate that they are very skilled.

I understand that there are political issues. These issues are things that I choose not to become directly entangled with now. I am only interested in being a student. Besides, most of the political issues have already been presented and discussed at length in various forums. My personal opinions or comments either way, would no help to settle this matter or be beneficial to Daito-ryu. Daito-ryu here in America, is experiencing enough growing pains without me making additional comments. I only felt obligated to share my experience about my teacher's technical abilities with you and others who read this board. My teachers are very skilled and I hope that others here might someday consider their opportunities to train with them to find out for themselves. America is a great country, and we are all free to make our own choices.

In addition, I hope, from my reply that you did not misinterpret any wrong intentions. Like you, I can only speak of limited matters regarding Daito-ryu. By no means did I intend to imply that my school is the sole and only Daito-ryu organization in the world. There are several schools that I am familiar with, some which you mentioned who are very legitimate. As we who have followed Daito-ryu and its history know, there are others as well!!

In closing, it is me sir that is honored to address you. Thank you for presenting the opportunity!!


Sincerely,

Doug Taylor

Nathan Scott
12th December 2000, 02:15
Hello Mr. Taylor,

Welcome to the forum!

I'm glad you chose to de-cloak and participate in discussions. I find your presence here to be an asset, since otherwise we are limited to discussing your organization - of which we are not members - between ourselves. I am also relieved to hear that you are satsified with the quality of training at the Seishin Abashiri dojo.

Nothing will be resolved from emotional outbursts and name calling, so I am quite happy to approach the topic logically, factually and fairly.


So I feel compelled as a creditability issue, to share with you that my previous teacher for over 10 years, prior to joining the school was a Sandan under the late Katsumi Yonzawa Sensei.

Out of curiousity, may I ask who your instructor was under Yonezawa Sensei? Was it under the Bokuyokan, or earlier?

While we're at it, how do you find your training under Yonezawa S. system compares to your training now?


While both are very important and show acheivment, to rule out the fact that senior students of the former Daitokan, whomever they might be, would not have a legitimate level of techincal ability, is unreasonable to me. Especially when many of the senior students, including those of the "Seishinkai Group", were direct and daily attending students of the late Tokimune Takeda Sensei for periods of 30-40 years.

This is a tough subject to discuss. While I don't personally know whether the Seishin members are highly skilled or not, I would say that it is likewise not fair to assume that they *are* highly skilled.

I instruct at the headquarters of two of the syles that I train in, and it has been an interesting experience. The members of our Honbu largely are not aware of the skill level of our headmaster, or what a rare opportunity it is to train under him directly. As such, there are quite a number of mediocre-skilled students who come to class, put in their time and don't make the extra effort and sacrifice to really excel in the systems. To some degree they take the instructor for granted since he is there five days a week. Some students have come from other places specifically to train under our headmaster, and they are the exceptions, but most students are local and this was simply the closest dojo to where they live.

Conversely, our headmaster runs two world-wide organizations, full of members who compete for his time and attention. They do not see him often, and as such are very hungry for knowledge. Soke is treated with much respect and enthusiasm when he travels, and as a result puts alot more energy into teaching them. Also, having limited exposure to him, he tends to give them alot of valuable "homework" to work on inbetween visits.

My point being that it has been my experience and observation that it is quite possible to have students with daily contact with the headmaster of the style who do not become highly skilled, while others not at the honbu may be able to progress at a relatively surprising pace. To many Japanese, Daito ryu is many of hundreds of ryu-ha that are taught around Japan. Many students are usually either young, and not terribly committed, or salarymen that don't have the time, inclination or energy to train seriously.

Daito ryu was not nearly as "famous" then as it is now, and the Daitokan was a somewhat modest wooden building in the back yard of the instructor's house.

Also, it is well worth noting that Takeda Sokaku S. performed the vast majority of his teaching through limited seminar-style opportunities. Many of the highly skilled instructors of Daito ryu managed to learn this way, seeing a technique demonstrated once and not receiving much if any corrections from the instructor. It has been documented that this is how Ueshiba Sensei and most others learned.

While Kondo Sensei is a busy man, and lives quite far away from the Daitokan, I don't think it's fair to question his ability based on this fact alone considering that most senior exponents learned in the same fashion - and he was clearly favored and awarded the only Menkyo Kaiden by the Daitokan's own headmaster.

I ask you this - why did Takeda T. Soke not choose to issue higher certfication to his own, daily students of 30-40 years. What about Kyoju Dairi? Why trust administrative duties to someone so far away when he's got long time direct senior students locally?

I also find it interesting that the Seishin seniors and Mr. Kobayashi are quick to defend the honor and memory of their teacher, but they don't seem to mind boldly implying that Kondo Sensei purchased his Menkyo Kaiden from Takeda T. Soke (this based primarily on discussions on the daito-ryu.com BBS).

These are a few points to consider.

For the record, I'm not saying Kondo S. or Kato/Sano S. are more or less skilled. I have not seen any of the Seishin tapes yet. Mr. Taylor could very well be right. I for one remain open until I've at least viewed some video.


As for me, I wish both groups would or could find a way to re-unite, because we in Daito-ryu are all losing out in someway.

I think we all agree on this. Personally, it is my hope to reach some kind of understanding or conclusion through this public "trial". Like I said, all this did not happen all that long ago.


Personally, I don't believe that one can say based on video tapes that either my teachers, or Mr. Kondo's group, are more superior. There are all sorts of photographic procedures and staging that can enhance the quality of a particular production. I like to think of video footage as a representation of certain techniques, rather than a judging instrument for the quality or caliber of a particular pactinioner or group.

There is some truth to that, but I have had alot of luck evaluating the skill of someone by watching video. I've seen Kondo S. in his oroduced instructional videos, and I've seen video of him live during demonstrations. You can see if the uke's are flying around on their own, and if the instructor is applying techniques in a bio-mechanically sound fashion or if it is a bit rough around the edges.

The Seishin videos are produced, which means they have had the opportunity to edit and put their best foot forward. However, while I'd like to see any video of them, I'd really like to see the demonstrating.

Evaluation of this kind is subjective, but far from valueless.

May I suggest that you approach your instructors about uploading a few mpegs for the world to see? It might go a long ways towards educating the public as to their skill, and it would bring traffic to the web page.

Anyway, the main issue politically has little to do with "who is better". But I don't think we can assume that one is better or worse based off the amount of daily exposure to the headmaster. while this is a logical theory, and two students of equal drive under these opposing training opportunities would definitely have vastly different skill levels in the end, I have seen evidence in more than one case to indicate that this is not always true in reality.

Respectfully,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 12-11-2000 at 08:34 PM]

miguel ibarra
22nd December 2000, 17:33
to nathan scott
happy holidays. the answer to your question to mr.taylor re: his past instructor is the following.

after his having received a black belt in another jujutsu style mr. taylor became my student. i as you know began studying under yonezawa shihan in 1982 prior to his establishing the bokuyokan. [prior to this i began my studies of jujutsu in 1966 in mi yama ryu jujutsu.] at that time i also studied under kiyama sensei since he was yonezawa's assistant here in the states, as well the main intructor when yonezawa was in japan. although yonezawa was a shihan 8 deg. in the kodo kai, he always emphasized applied techniques in his classes.
he was an excellent practitioner and instructor as is sensei kiyama [a truly dedicated daito ryu istructor and practitioner]. take care and happy holidays. ibarra

Nathan Scott
22nd December 2000, 19:18
Hello Mr. Ibarra,

Thanks for your reply and the interesting background. I've heard stories about Yonezawa Sensei, but never had a chance to meet him (or see video, for that matter).

Happy New Year and Holidays to you as well!

Regards,

Paul Wollos
23rd December 2000, 07:04
Greetings to You All,

I think the real problem we face here with Abashiri Group, is their attitude. They want world to recognize them as the "only honbu" of the "only Daito Ryu" art! In doing so (or just by stating so) they greatly disrespect all others. Statements found on their webside are not informative, but challenging rather. No wonder they have received response from so many, sometimes even very rude. Its just what one deserves claiming such things.
Sometime ago, "honbu secretary" tried his best to instruct others of their "disrespect" for Takeda Tokimune Soke, and Abashiri "honbu" generally. I thought to myself "well, how easily the facts can be twisted, reversed, and even abused".

What have become of Daito Ryu? Another "politically dirty" MA? It sadens me to see this wonderful art being hurt.

Well, sorry for rather a complicated post, but the whole issue is still extremally sensitive, nerve taking.

Simply: if one wants respect, first he shall show that he can respect others.
Unfortunatelly for Abashiri, this is far from being a case.

I do have videos of Seishinkai, and due to [...] I choose rather not to comment on that issue.

Yes, tahnks God we have people like Kondo Sensei, and others in Kodokai, Roppokai, Takumakai, Sagawa Dojo... otherwise there will be nothing left out of Daito Ryu AIKIjujutsu, but.... jujutsu.

I think people should open their eyes, see the facts for themselves, and pass the judgement free from affiliation (=politics).
The we could unite, discuss the REAL questions concerning this wonderful art, wishing each other PEACEFULL Merry Xmas.

Merry Christmas to You All. Have a Great Time!

sincrely

Paul Wollos

Nathan Scott
10th May 2001, 00:24
Just a quick note to advise interested parties that the SAD home page (daito-ryu.com) is down, and has been re-routed to:

http://panoz.tol.it/~daitoryu/daito-ryu.com/english/frame.htm

The bulletin board is completely gone. I managed to keep records of the majority of the interactions, but was not able to get it all before the posts started to expire.

Did anyone else happen to archive them?

Regards,

Carlos Estrella
16th May 2001, 17:15
I haven't been to the Abashiri site in a while (it's back up Nathan), and I noticed that is says, "In his last will (a public act that is available to the public) he appointed his daughter as our next Soke."

Since I am but a very, very junior student, is it possible that someone of more stature here could request a copy of this document that is "available to the public?"

There are several people in this forum that can translate Japanese to some extent, so this could actually settle a few issues so we can attempt to "move on."

Just an idea.

Carlos

Nathan Scott
16th May 2001, 18:14
Hello,

Yes, that part about a "public will" has been up since the beginning. That was actually one of the main points we argued about early on.

Mr. Pranin and Kondo sensei both said that there is no last written will (at least in regards to succession). Mr. Kobayashi (SAD secretary) insists that there is, and that it is "public knowledge" that anyone has access to. I asked him specifically where such a document could be found, and that I'd like very much to see it and he did not offer any assistance or information.

FWIW, this specific issue is not as critical as others at this point (aside from the matter of honesty). Both the SAD and Kondo sensei agree that Takeda Nobuko (married under the name "Yokoyama") was named to act as Soke until one of the son's was old enough (and qualified) to assume the headmastership. Mrs. Yokoyama resigned the position after Tokimune sensei's death, and the SAD claim that Yokoyama's sister (married under the name "Oshima") somehow obtained the right to become interim soke. Mrs. Oshima did appear to obtain the necessary records and officiating stamps (hanko).

Kondo sensei had supported Mrs. Yokoyama while she was acting soke, but does not appear to support Mrs. Oshima or her husband, who has legally changed his name to "Takeda [Masanobu]" and is unilaterally claiming to be soke of Daito ryu! Interestingly, Mr. Kobayashi indicated that he did not feel Mr. Oshima was in the right, but the SAD lists "Takeda Masanobu" as the current headmaster anyway.

I strongly urged the SAD on more than one occaison to provide evidence and/or documentation to support their claims, and they have provided a grand total of ZERO to date.

So there you have it - more to come.

Carlos Estrella
16th May 2001, 18:24
Thanks Nathan-san! I was thinking someone might have thought of this already but "never assume."

BTW: Is anyone thinking of trying to bring together the schools of Daito Ryu to a major seminar here in the States (that you are aware of)?

Regards,

Carlos

Nathan Scott
16th May 2001, 19:30
I don't see that happening any time soon.

It would seem that the major branches of DR share cordial, if not friendly relations. But on a technical level there does not seem to be much (mutual) interest in merging, sharing or collaborating between branches, outside of the occaisonal joint demonstrations in Japan that commemorate Takeda Sokaku, which is a common denominator.

There is something interesting about the methods and political structure Tokimune sensei had set up, that I'm not all that clear on still. I will start a new thread soon about that. Tokimune sensei was influntial on the Seishinkai (obviously, since they were his students) as well as the Takumakai. The other major branches seem to be more focused on aiki methods.

BTW, Mr. Pranin does have some big plans for an aikido enbutaikai in Nevada. If it comes to be, it promises be an interesting event to be at.

Regards,