Hoki

[paul browne]

Gassho,
This is really a question for Anders but others should feel free to pitch in if they wish.

Anders,
I hope you are well,
Doing a look through some old posts on kempo weaponry I noticed that in addition to some training with Shakujo and Nyoi Den you had received a little instruction in Dokko den. Can you give some idea of what these techniques consisted of? were they normal hokei (Byakuren waza for example) adapted to the use of the dokko (I've tried this and they seem pretty logical)
Also I recently saw the Tan en kata demonstration video clip (His Jodan Tobi Komi Sokuto Geri didn't make me feel in any way fat, grounded or inferior:D ) in which the kenshi performs movements using Ippon Tsunode which I think in other posts have been described as being demonstrating the use of the dokko. Is this the case since it seems to ignore the most powerful movements with it, Shoken uchi?
Anyway your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Oh and if you get a chance try and stop Mr. Williams Sensei from looking quite so 'Kyokushinkai' in his technique when you next train with him...he'll be chopping the antlers off your reindeer next:D
Kesshu
Paul

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho,
This is really a question for Anders but others should feel free to pitch in if they wish.

Anders,
I hope you are well,
Gassho Hi Paul.

Yes I am well, but have been a little busy, hence my late reply.


Doing a look through some old posts on kempo weaponry I noticed that in addition to some training with Shakujo and Nyoi Den you had received a little instruction in Dokko den. Can you give some idea of what these techniques consisted of? were they normal hokei (Byakuren waza for example) adapted to the use of the dokko (I've tried this and they seem pretty logical)
As for dokko (correct name according to Kyohan is Kongo sho [金剛杵] and there is three types listed; dokko [独鈷], sanko [三鈷] and gokko [五鈷] (single, three "headed" and five "headed").

Anyway I have been thaught one single form usually reffered to as Dokko ken (and this is not, as far as I can see, listed in the Kyohan). It is very short, basically three punches with dokko to one direction, zentenkan and a kick and then the same three punches in the other direction before turning back and finish. (Of course there are some more details to it, but I can't really bother to write a lenghty description that won't be understandable anyway :) ).


Also I recently saw the Tan en kata demonstration video clip (His Jodan Tobi Komi Sokuto Geri didn't make me feel in any way fat, grounded or inferior:D ) in which the kenshi performs movements using Ippon Tsunode which I think in other posts have been described as being demonstrating the use of the dokko. Is this the case since it seems to ignore the most powerful movements with it, Shoken uchi?

"The" tanen kata???? I guess you mean "a tanen demonstration"?

Anyway officially our single forms should be reffered to as tanen hokei not tanen kata (there is of course the Ryu no kata, which is a single form hokei and the alternative name for Komanji ken which is Manji no kata, but the term kata for meaning single form is not correct, at least not in my book). ;)

As I don't know what demo you are reffering to I can only guess. Yes I have seen some tandoku embu were the kenshi simulates the use of different hoki. As far as I know there are no set forms on this.

As for the Shakujo I have been thaugt it is possible to do many of our ordinary hokei with shakujo (such as Tsubame gaeshi, all Tenchiken, etc.), I have also seen some hokei demonstrated in serial pictures by Ueda-sensei (who by the way I have heard recently closed his Naoshima-doin) in a Japanese Budo Magazine. These hokei had names but are not something that we can find in the kyohan.
But all use of hoki are based on the same principals as our other waza.



Anyway your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
I hope I could give you some satisfaction with my thoughts on this. :)


Oh and if you get a chance try and stop Mr. Williams Sensei from looking quite so 'Kyokushinkai' in his technique when you next train with him...he'll be chopping the antlers off your reindeer next :D

I met Steve the other week when he was teaching together with myself, Duncan Mark and some other Swedish Shibu-cho at the summer gasshuku in Visby.
At the gasshuku we didn't get much chance of practice together, but I will make up for that in two weeks time when Steve will be coming over for a weekend to get some serious training here in Karlstad. :)

/Anders

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'm sorry, I think I may have asked this before;

Is dokko the same as the wooden club used to bash the taiko at the opening of Taikai, etc.?

At the really BIG Taikai, they use a really BIG Mega-Daiko, and have a corrspondingly big stick to hit it with. Is this ever used to whack people with? In a Zazen class, the instructor will use a cane(?), a stick(?) or a pole (bo?) to "correct" the posture. Are these related to any "traditional" Monk weapons in the way that the Monk's staff (Shakujo) is?

[Anders Pettersson]

I'm sorry, I think I may have asked this before;
At least someone have asked it before. ;)


Is dokko the same as the wooden club used to bash the taiko at the opening of Taikai, etc.?
No, have a look in this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25168)


At the really BIG Taikai, they use a really BIG Mega-Daiko, and have a corrspondingly big stick to hit it with. Is this ever used to whack people with? In a Zazen class, the instructor will use a cane(?), a stick(?) or a pole (bo?) to "correct" the posture. Are these related to any "traditional" Monk weapons in the way that the Monk's staff (Shakujo) is?
I don't believe that the drumstick used on Taiko have any relation to the dabo that we use in chinkon-gyo, or in any other zazen related situations.

/Anders

[paul browne]

Gassho,
Anders thankyou for replying,
The dokko ken form you described sounds like the video clip I saw, it was at the end of a longer single form demonstration.
The fact that it seems that the Hoki techniques are all adaptations of the unarmed hokei waza means that really one (and for now the only) way to learn them is by personal experimentation and research, so thats what I'll do.
Steve was kind enough to invite me on his trip to Sweden to see you, but unfortunately I cannot get leave from my house kancho.
I trust you will attend to strengthening his spirit in time for his 4th dan test in September.;)
Kesshu
Paul

[Steve Williams]

Steve will be coming over for a weekend to get some serious training here in Karlstad. :)

/Anders


When I asked for serious training..... I actually meant serious drinking..... I'm going to have to bring dogi now...... ;)

[tony leith]

The problem I think here is not unlike that with seiho - these techniques are part of the overall body of knowledge which comprises Shorinjikempo, but because they are not to be found on the syllabus their transmission from generation to generation of kenshi isn't prescribed in any systematic way. It therefore very much depends on the quality of available instruction, and to some extent even on the inclination of specific sensei. Kaiso himself doesn't seem to have seen that much point to shakujo techniques, for example, on practical grounds (presumably that kenshi are fairly unlikely to just happen to have about their person a six foot walking staff). Oueda Sensei apparently received personal tuition in the use of staff techniques as a compensation for his disability (missing half of one arm).

Simply saying that they embody the same principles as non weapons forms isn't really that helpful. I've done a very little training from other traditions with weapons (recreation of Scottish medieval fighting techniques), of which the only one which has any obvious affinity with Shorinjikempo waza is spear work. Granted, the shakujo is not a spear, but it is a long pole with a lump of metal on the end of it. Some of the basic principles are therefore probably similar - specifically if you have a big stick, the best use for it is likely to involve keeping opponents at the far end of the thing.

I've seen footage of Japanese branch masters demonstrating mass shakujo pair form embu, and the manner in which they were being wielded in both attack and defence looked strikingly like spear form work. Interestingly, I've also seen some people practising English quarterstaff work, and again the Errol Flynn hands at centre point of pole fencing Little John approach was not favoured. It's a big lever, and it makes sense to exploit the leverage to add to the striking force. This doesn't mean that in the end basic principles aren't applicable, but their application may be counterintuitive for those used to weaponless techniques. Again, our hokei generally enables us to short circuit a lot of trial and error to find the optimal approach. If you're trying to figure it out for yourself, most of us not being geniuses, it's all much more problematic.

That being said, you can have fun trying. For one outdoor demo we did, we worked out a shakujo (well, OK, big stick) embu based on tenchiken di nikkei sotai. It worked pretty well, and certainly helped get the attention of the crowd.

As to the nyoi and dokko den, they might actually be potentially more practical. There is however an obvious legal/moral issue - in the UK at least carrying any sort of weapon, even one intended for defence, leaves you open to the possibility of arrest and subsequent prosecution. Carrying a weapon implies a readiness to use it to inflict damage on potential assailants, of which the law may take a dim view.

Tony Leith


The problem here is that sometimes this is counterintuitive when you're used to weaponless defence

[jailess]

Gassho,

What weapon defences do people do at other clubs?

At Glasgow, though we´ve practiced with Shakujo a couple of times, we mainly do defences against knife attacks, as that´ll probably be the weapon up here we´re most likely to come up against. Good training in Ma´ai and kyojutsu, but I usually end up dead for the moment.

Though the Shakujo work´s great fun, I don´t think it´ll ever be useful in a street situation. The knife defences we do, though, are unfortunately much more likely...

Do you think it´s okay, now that weapon-carrying is illegal and the weapons we´re most likely to face on the street have changed, to concentrate less on these weapon forms? Seiho, in my opinion, is different, as it´s still useful to know now. Walking around with a big stick isn´t something I do regularly, and unfortunately facing the point of a knife is something I expect will happen at least once in my life.

[tony leith]

From Jaime's last post:-


At Glasgow, though we´ve practiced with Shakujo a couple of times, we mainly do defences against knife attacks, as that´ll probably be the weapon up here we´re most likely to come up against. Good training in Ma´ai and kyojutsu, but I usually end up dead for the moment.

Though the Shakujo work´s great fun, I don´t think it´ll ever be useful in a street situation. The knife defences we do, though, are unfortunately much more likely...

As one of his instructors, I feel I should point out that the defence against knives I have emphasised most often is running away very quickly. At the same time, although Glasgow is not some lawless Mad Max badland, the kind of people likely to perpetrate unprovoked assaults are also the kind of people mostly likely to be carrying blades. Practising shita uke based defences against tanto attacks and soto oshi uke uke based defences against blunt instruments is actually a pretty effective way of reinforcing the critical importance of hikimi, furimi etc. etc.

I don't actually think everything we do has to be justified with reference to 'what would work in a real situation'. I've seen debates on e-budo about the practical application of kata, for example. Shorinjikempo training doctrines from the outset assert that tan en practice in itself would not be a useful means of learning self defence. We practice kata for other reasons, some of them I think fundementally aesthetic. I don't think we have to be ashamed of that.

The same could be said of the shakujo - I've seen film of Oueda Sensei performing a single form demonstration at the 40th anniversary, and in a Shorinjikempo context it's one of the most stunning things I've ever seen (anybody out there got it on video?)

Tony Leith

[CityShorinji]

I practise nuclear bomb defence quite a lot. It involves putting on your sunnies and sitting outside with a beer.

Believe me, in a nuclear attack, that's what you should do. I used to live next to Faslane and the Holy Loch, so you can take it from me.

[Matt Molloy]

...although Glasgow is not some lawless Mad Max badland....

Yeah? Sez you.

;) :D :laugh:

Sorry couldn't resist.

Note to people outside the UK. Glasgow is an incredible place filled with cultural landmarks and has even, I believe, been noted as the "European City of Culture" at one point.

My first Classics tutor was from Glasgow and I can't look at the city without thinking of Herodotus or Thucydides.

And for some reason people will think that I'm taking the p*ss. :laugh:

Cheers,

Matt.

[Matt Molloy]

I practise nuclear bomb defence quite a lot. It involves putting on your sunnies and sitting outside with a beer.

I tried this defence so often that the wife told me to take myself off and do some training....

So definitely of some benefit then.

Cheers,

Matt.

[JL.]

Gassho!


I practise nuclear bomb defence quite a lot. It involves putting on your sunnies and sitting outside with a beer.

Believe me, in a nuclear attack, that's what you should do. I used to live next to Faslane and the Holy Loch, so you can take it from me.

Hmm, I thought we should lay down and put our hands behind our head or something. That's certainly gonna help ... if the government says so! *very honest and credulous look*

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Matt Molloy]

Gassho!



Hmm, I thought we should lay down and put our hands behind our head or something. That's certainly gonna help ... if the government says so! *very honest and credulous look*

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I remember that the leaflets that the government sent out in the '80s advocated taking a door off its hinges and putting it up on an inside wall, sandbagging it and living in it till it all blew over.

That and painting the windows white.

:confused:

Who could have guessed that the most terrible weapon on earth could have been defended against so easily. :rolleyes:

I prefer Adrian's suggestion.

Cheers,

Matt.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Yeah, it's a shame the over 200,000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't paint their windows white. That might be a bit too sarcastic, I suppose. But seeing the old pictures of a city levelled in a single blast (by a bomb that according to nowadays standards was rather tiny) and hearing of government leaflets 40(!) years later advocating such rubbish is something that doesn't make me believe in the abilities of our "leaders" to solve the problems of today (i.e. Iran).

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[paul browne]

Gassho
Sorry but who said anything about weapons?

OK, I might have with my use of the word 'hoki' (and weaponry, but it was a long day) but my command of Japanese is non-existant.

Shorinji Kempo doesn't teach weapons; the shakujo is a walking stave that allows the itinerant monk to negotiate the tricky paths of mountainous Japan, it's metal ringed head rattles to attract the faithful and warn animals of the monk's approach, very sensible in a land that has wolves, wild boar and bears (you don't want to startle a bear!!)(as Mizuno sensei used to say you shouldn't try your geri on a dog...it will bite you, imagine what a bear would do :))
The Nyoi is a symbol based on the mushroom shaped tree beneath which the buddha attained enlightenment. it represents the twists and turns of the unenlightened mind (Zen Dictionary...Ernest Wood...Penguin)
The dokko is an item shared with Hinduism and represents the 'thunderbolt' of enlightenment and is again symbolic in nature. these are items a travelling monk may well have with him, not weapons.

I at any given time may have a pen, mini-maglight or mobile phone (dokko),
a folding umbrella, newspaper or when working a big maglight (nyoi), or I may have a big golfing umbrella or when decrepitude sets in a walking stick (Shakujo), all legally and morally defensible if used as an instrument of self protection (i stole that phrase) so long as the use was reasonable, justified and proportionate. Incidentally there are other non-fighting benefits to shakujo/nyoi work. It makes you adjust distancing, adapt body movement and take risks that normal embu doesn't. In single form both provide a good upper body workout and make solo training more interesting.
So Shorinji kempo doesn't train to use weapons and nor do I:).
It's occasionally comforting to know what can be pressed into service if needs be though.
Paul
Kesshu