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View Full Version : Comparing kata from different lineages, is there a point to it?



Trevor Johnson
21st July 2005, 18:21
This is a quote from this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=358966#post358966). I would prefer to keep that thread focussed, so I've built another thread for the argument.



Originally Posted by Trevor Johnson
……Often comparing their kata and bunkai is a great way to suss out what is truly essential.

Reply posted by Robert Rousselot
Not to be fussy but I don’t agree with this statement at all. Bunkai should be “painfully” obvious (excuse the pun) if done correctly. There shouldn't be a need to compare bunkai from one style to another, you should be able to discern whether your own bunkai is essential or not by feeling it. Plus the fact that the person from the other style might be a poor representative of his school.
I think more often than not people compare and contrast in order to “borrow” bunkai from other more “bunkai concentrated” systems and try to squeeze it into their own style. I have seen this done on several occasions.
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Trevor Johnson
21st July 2005, 18:38
Having started this thread, I would like to mention that I strongly disagree with Trollbasher. I think that a lot can be learned about each kata by following it through the different styles.

At the beginning, a kata is based around a certain set of bunkai or ideas about strategy. When it's taught to others, this set presumably is taught with the kata. If it isn't, someone's got to go find that starting set, or something close to it as possible, which is what I'm doing.
As a kata is taught, different teachers are going to change it, as they found different lineages. Who's right? Most of them are. Each of them, though, based on their own personality, body, and what each considers important in the kata, will probably change something. They may also change something when they teach it to their students. If you're not rotating your hips enough, your sensei may want all your kata to have exaggerated hip movement to correct this. And so it goes.
What this means is that you get a number of different variants of the kata, based upon different understandings of the central theme. Given time, each of those different understandings will become concretized, and in some lineages, the meaning behind the stone will be forgotten.

If you want to get a good idea of the original idea behind the kata, therefore, it pays to look at the various descendents of it. This way you can pare away the nonessential additions, or in the case of Shotokan, find the missing movements, and look at what's going on.
As an example, take the sweep. One style may represent a sweep one way, another may represent it another way, each capturing one piece of information that THEY find critical in the sweep, or just the way that their teachers found they did the sweep best. And so it goes for each movement. If you look at one, you find one way of looking at a sweep, and it may not be obvious that it's a sweep. If you look at several ways, they overlap in such a way as to tell you, oh, I'm looking at a sweep here, and this is what it's doing, and these are the critical bits of information various teachers have wanted to pass down about how it can be used.

Troll Basher
22nd July 2005, 02:11
This is a quote from this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=358966#post358966). I would prefer to keep that thread focussed, so I've built another thread for the argument.

Before you said you wanted to "discuss" this.....if you want to argue you will be wasting my time. Hopefully that is not your intent.




1) I think that a lot can be learned about each kata by following it through the different styles.

At the beginning, a kata is based around a certain set of bunkai or ideas about strategy. When it's taught to others, this set presumably is taught with the kata.
2) If it isn't, someone's got to go find that starting set, or something close to it as possible, which is what I'm doing.
3) As a kata is taught, different teachers are going to change it, as they found different lineages. Who's right? Most of them are.
4) Each of them, though, based on their own personality, body, and what each considers important in the kata, will probably change something. They may also change something when they teach it to their students. If you're not rotating your hips enough, your sensei may want all your kata to have exaggerated hip movement to correct this. And so it goes.
What this means is that you get a number of different variants of the kata, based upon different understandings of the central theme. Given time, each of those different understandings will become concretized, and in some lineages, the meaning behind the stone will be forgotten.

5) If you want to get a good idea of the original idea behind the kata, therefore, it pays to look at the various descendents of it. This way you can pare away the nonessential additions, or in the case of Shotokan, find the missing movements, and look at what's going on.
6) As an example, take the sweep. One style may represent a sweep one way, another may represent it another way, each capturing one piece of information that THEY find critical in the sweep, or just the way that their teachers found they did the sweep best. And so it goes for each movement. If you look at one, you find one way of looking at a sweep, and it may not be obvious that it's a sweep. If you look at several ways, they overlap in such a way as to tell you, oh, I'm looking at a sweep here, and this is what it's doing, and these are the critical bits of information various teachers have wanted to pass down about how it can be used.

1) This is a bit different than your original statement which was “I really need to see other styles. Often comparing their kata and bunkai is a great way to suss out what is truly essential.”

2) The “starting point”….not likely since as far as I know the people that started most of the traditional kata are dead and have been so for sometime.
3) “Who’s right”…..only the ones that have techniques that actually work are right. By this I mean the one’s that have techniques that are practical and applicable for realistic situations and not some of the more contrived “Flying Ninja Squirel” scenarios I have seen.

4) I refer to this as going into “Funakoshi mode”…meaning “Let’s just change what we don’t care for or understand.” which is what he did with the kata in shotokan. I am not saying kata can’t be “tweaked” here and there for certain needs (i.e. knee injuries, or other physical problems) but to purposely distort them is not good. When you distort a kata are altering the techniques found in the bunkai of it. For example: If someone is doing Naihanchi Shodan and decide for some reason they are no longer going to do the bottom part of the opening move where the hands overlap and move downward they have just amputated bunkai that is connected to other bunkai or if they were told by their teacher to twist their hips they have just distorted the way executing several moves in the bunkai. Because of neural muscular memory or whatever you want to call it you will do it the way you have trained.

5) Shotokan is a decent of Funakoshi’s Okinawan based karate but I certainly wouldn’t use any of their bunkai. Sorry to say by the JKA and Shotokan have some of the poorest and most contrived bunkai I have yet to see. One look at Nakayama’s book on karate kate and some of the so called “self-defense” techniques he proposes will demonstrate my point.

6) This is all fine and good but it is not discovering bunkai but rather comparing and contrasting the execution of a technique and the differences their in. For the most part bunkai is a study and understanding of what the movement represents. People will naturally execute movements according to their own body. For example a smaller person will perform a throw somewhat different than a larger person but if they are both using the same piece of bunkai then it is still represented as a “throw”.

So getting back to your original statement: “I really need to see other styles. Often comparing their kata and bunkai is a great way to suss out what is truly essential.”

If you truly know how to “read” kata to find and understand bunkai from an analytical and practical point of view (not for tournaments) you won’t “need” to look at other styles to pilfer bunkai from them. For all you know their bunkai may not be correct anyway.
That’s not to say it’s wrong to be interested in what others are doing for the same kata but to out right mimic what another style does is not training.
Some people may remember an mpeg that was floating around a while ago where a guy taught a Chimp how to do all sort of kicks and break a board……did the Chimp understand what he was doing or was he just mimicking what he was shown?
Monkey see monkey do……

Part of training is self discovery. For example when I had questions about a move in a kata I would ask my teacher “What does this move represent?”. 99.99% of the time his answer was “What do you think it means?” He knew the answer, he just wanted me to pull my head out of my butt and think for myself so that I would eventually be able to better understand how to “read” kata. After I thought about it I would go back and ask him “is this right?”…more often than not he would say one of several things “does it work on anyone regardless of size?” or “no” or “not quite” and offer some “tips”. “Tips” in the form of actually doing the technique on me and then tell me to go and think about it. And by learning that way and testing the techniques you can find out what is essential. I have found this is a far better way to learn than just having a teacher say “Ok, this is A, this is B, C, D, E, F” and so on. That’s how basics are taught…not upper level techniques like bunkai.

As children we are basically spoon fed information by our teachers in elementary school to high school, when get to high school we are supposed to be able to think somewhat for ourselves, first four years of University we are expected to be able to be able to do research on our own with limited instruction, Grad school even less intrusion from or teachers, and for a Doctorate degree we are expected to come up with something on our own BASED on what all the other years of study have supplied us with.
So to are MA and kata. Shodan is basically a high school diploma that means you are ready to learn, shodan~yodan is your university stage, yodan~rokudan is grad school, rokudan~ on up is your doctorate stage.
Therefore to “plagiarize” another style’s bunkai (i.e. copy) is like claiming someone else’s Masters Thesis is your own.

Here is an example….Several years ago I was at the Budo Seminar in Chiba and was introduced to someone that did some of the same kata as I do. He wanted to “compare notes” on kata (at that time I still did things like this but don’t anymore), I figured I would be friendly and agreed. After a short while I noticed I was giving more than I was getting in the “note comparison” department and noticed the guy I was trading notes with knew almost nothing as far as bunkai.
So, a year goes by and at the same seminar in Chiba I see the same guy I “compared notes” with teaching what I had showed him VERY briefly the year before …..and he was teaching it wrong so it wasn’t working! Needless to say I wasn’t too pleased about this so I went over and told him “Look, if you’re going to teach what I showed you last year at least teach it correctly” and then demonstrated my point by doing several of the techniques. After this little escaped I stopped “comparing bunkai notes” with people because it seemed sort of irresponsible on my part since they weren’t learning the techniques I was showing well enough in that short amount of time. If they wanted to come to the dojo and train for a while and become fairly proficient that’s fine but no more “mini seminars” on bunkai.

Over the last 27+ years of training I have noticed the people that really want to “compare bunkai notes” with other styles usually want to do so because they have none of their own or theirs is severally lacking and don’t want to or don’t know how to do their own homework on bunkai. I refer to these people as “bunkai parasites”

So to surmise my point. To beg, borrow or steal bunkai from another style as you are purposing under the pretext of “comparing” to suss out what is essential is not really a good way to train.
It’s like saying “I want to know what Okinawa is like” and then you fly over it in a jet looking out the window with out ever touching ground and never interacting with the people, or experiencing the journey of going through that country with all the ups and downs it offers. You basically get nothing from it by flying over in a jet except maybe a bag of peanuts.
So when someone suggests they want to “compare to suss out what is essential” my first thought is to find out who’s techniques are “essential” …..mine or yours??? I know mine work pretty well and are “essential” so why should I be concerned if yours are “essential” or work or not……..that’s your job to test them and find out if they are valid bunkai. There is never only one right answer for a kata movement (bunkai), although there are many wrong ones….however, if a technique works on pretty much anyone under fairly realistic conditions then it is probably right.

This has turned into somewhat of a long post which was not my intention but we could discuss bunkai all day long going back and forth like an eternal ping pong match and probably wouldn’t get very far.
Suffice it to say I understand where you are coming from as I have seen many people with the same idea, however, I don’t think it is “needed” to understand bunkai, in fact I believe it to be a hindrance since if everyone is going around copying everyone else’s bunkai then for better or worse everyone will be doing pretty much the same thing. The JKA tried this with kata back in the 1950’s and what they got is the “JKA” which is not really Shotokan karate as it was transmitted by Funakoshi….I think more was lost by doing this than was ever gained.

Trevor Johnson
22nd July 2005, 04:57
Before you said you wanted to "discuss" this.....if you want to argue you will be wasting my time. Hopefully that is not your intent.

Discussion, argument. Same thing for me, only the vehemence is different. I'm perfectly willing to listen to people, it's mostly how they conduct themselves that determines the difference.



1) This is a bit different than your original statement which was “I really need to see other styles. Often comparing their kata and bunkai is a great way to suss out what is truly essential.”

2) The “starting point”….not likely since as far as I know the people that started most of the traditional kata are dead and have been so for sometime.
3) “Who’s right”…..only the ones that have techniques that actually work are right. By this I mean the one’s that have techniques that are practical and applicable for realistic situations and not some of the more contrived “Flying Ninja Squirel” scenarios I have seen.

:D :D You said ninja! :D :D And yes, seen those and find them amusing.

One of the things I should point out is that a lot of styles, shito-ryu, shorin-ryu, etc, have a common descent. Nevertheless, when you look at their kata, which are called the same thing, they're different. They're descended from an older version, much as the heians are descended from some kind of mythic progenitor. (Whether channan or kushanku doesn't exactly matter. ) Modern shotokan itself is descended from a progenitor, which is the various Okinawan styles that Funakoshi had studied under Itosu and Azato, who were VERY different people and had similarly different styles.

So, basically, what I'm saying is that these styles all funnel down to Okinawan karate - and in the kata that are shared between them, the bunkai presumably do too. More on this below.


4) I refer to this as going into “Funakoshi mode”…meaning “Let’s just change what we don’t care for or understand.” which is what he did with the kata in shotokan. I am not saying kata can’t be “tweaked” here and there for certain needs (i.e. knee injuries, or other physical problems) but to purposely distort them is not good. When you distort a kata are altering the techniques found in the bunkai of it. For example: If someone is doing Naihanchi Shodan and decide for some reason they are no longer going to do the bottom part of the opening move where the hands overlap and move downward they have just amputated bunkai that is connected to other bunkai or if they were told by their teacher to twist their hips they have just distorted the way executing several moves in the bunkai. Because of neural muscular memory or whatever you want to call it you will do it the way you have trained.

5) Shotokan is a decent of Funakoshi’s Okinawan based karate but I certainly wouldn’t use any of their bunkai. Sorry to say by the JKA and Shotokan have some of the poorest and most contrived bunkai I have yet to see. One look at Nakayama’s book on karate kate and some of the so called “self-defense” techniques he proposes will demonstrate my point.

Have you ever seen Kenneth Funakoshi's kata movies? Apple apparently rolled quite a ways after falling from that tree. You don't need to convince me about Shotokan.

Part of the problem is that the most common Jiin on the web IS the shotokan version, and especially in the states, where it's not done, that's all I'm probably going to see. So going to other styles to find the bunkai is a good idea, since that's what I'm starting from. Other styles have taken out certain moves, or not lost others, which means that the kata that they call Jiin looks very different than Shotokan. One of the things that some people have done is tried to revitalize the Shotokan karate by adding things back in. Shorin-ryu, for example. So they've changed the kata by changing how they do the moves to capture what they think is going on, rather than the Shotokan official bunkai.

One of the kata that best illustrates this point for me is Heian Godan. If you look at the drawing move, after the first groin strike at the end, some styles do it with the front hand down, rear hand behind the head (Shotokan). Some with the front hand at shoulder height and the rear hand in front of the chest like an inward block(us). Some have the front hand in one of those two options and the rear hand pulling backwards in front of the shoulder like drawing a bow (forget exactly who does this one atm, sorry).
The bunkai we use is very simple, strike the groin with the rear hand while passing their punch with the front, and then reach under the leg and pull the leg up, while the front hand comes across and hits the face for the throw. (Harry Cook's history of shotokan shows Funakoshi doing this, if I remember correctly.) Harry's group actually does the same thing we do, but from the shikaku, which gives a better angle on the testicles, so you don't have to grab the leg. I should mention that as far as I know, we came to these independantly.
If you look at Shotokan's bunkai, they say you're blocking two opponents. (Hee, hee) What I think actually happened is that Funakoshi was trying to capture one facet of the move, the dynamism required for it, and the arm going all the way back is the horribly misinterpreted result. The styles that hold the back arm horizontal are emphasizing the pull on the testicles, whereas we hold the arm in front of our chest in the block position, (actually more of a cradle for the leg, see the third set of blocks in bassai-dai for another.) because we're focusing on grabbing the leg. If you really pull with our arm position, as fast as you can, you can end up in the Shotokan position. The arm in front can be either horizontal at shoulder level, where the strike to the head that enhances the throw starts, or a downblock, which is the end position it lands in as it accelerates their head towards the ground.
Now, I should point out that the reason that we came up with this bunkai is that we looked at all these different ways of doing this one simple move and asked, "What in the Sam Hill are they doing?" The different ways of doing the move were like data points, they told us the shape of something. What we found in common between each of the moves was a certain body english and an emphasis on pulling something from groin level UP while sweeping the other arm out towards the opponent. From this, we figured grabbing something at groin level and pulling, and hitting outwards towards the head or body. The different positions of the arm we realized were different objects being held, and the rest is history.

I hope this wasn't a swamp of detail, but it's basically what I'm trying to do to Jiin.

Often bunkai are wrong, yes. This is true especially in the styles who do tournaments exclusively. (Ever seen the TKD kata with the jumping backflip in the middle? Apparently an advanced kata, 'cause the guy doing it had the highest belt there. If that thing even HAS bunkai I'd be surprised. ) However, if the kata's recognizably an Okinawan one, I'd like to see what those people have come up with for the bunkai. I may think it's hooey, but it at least tells me what the kata is NOT doing there. Besides, what they do may suggest something to me, or there may be a way to fix it so that it works. I have found a few different applications for many moves in kata. Often, they suggest a GOTH technique. In other words, if what my primary technique is doesn't work because they twist out enough to resist, and I don't have time to modify it because of another threat, I may just be able to pull out another bunkai that I've trained. Also, if I can take one move and apply it to a different situation, it makes that move much more useful, and my neuromuscular conditioning that much more effecient.

Kata are a medium, like painting, film, literature, sculpture, etc. Each is designed for the transmission of information. Each also has limitations in the amount and kind of data which it can capture. Single-person kata are, among other deficiencies, unable to represent the clash of bodies accurately. This leaves the moves open to misinterpretation in many different ways. One of the ways to fix that is to represent the critical piece of data that you're trying to transmit in different ways, to triangulate to the information so that it doesn't get lost. Kata are, in and of themselves, like those dehydrated shrimp eggs. If you don't add in a lot of content around them, they're dessicated and dead. If you add in context, like stickyhands, randori, various grappling exercises, makiwara, other conditioning, partners to train with, etc, the kata come alive again. This, essentially, is what I'm trying to bring about with Jiin, to make it live again, at least in my own person and in the school I train in.

Troll Basher
22nd July 2005, 06:20
Discussion, argument. Same thing for me, only the vehemence is different. I'm perfectly willing to listen to people, it's mostly how they conduct themselves that determines the difference.

I see. Well, to me they are a bit different. Discussion seems to be more of a dialogue where both people listen and talk in turn. Arguments tend to be one side conversations and nobody listens and nothing is understood by both sides.


So, basically, what I'm saying is that these styles all funnel down to Okinawan karate - and in the kata that are shared between them, the bunkai presumably do too. More on this below.

Actually Okinawan bunkai is not as similar among different styles as some would believe. I have many friends that train/trained in various Okinawan Honbu. I have seen some of the bunkai they practice and in many cases it is not the same as what I do or some other people’s I know.


1)Part of the problem is that the most common Jiin on the web IS the shotokan version, and especially in the states, where it's not done, that's all I'm probably going to see. So going to other styles to find the bunkai is a good idea, since that's what I'm starting from. Other styles have taken out certain moves, or not lost others, which means that the kata that they call Jiin looks very different than Shotokan. 2) One of the things that some people have done is tried to revitalize the Shotokan karate by adding things back in. Shorin-ryu, for example. So they've changed the kata by changing how they do the moves to capture what they think is going on, rather than the Shotokan official bunkai.

1) This tends to be a problem doesn’t it. I mean people think whatever they see the most of MUST be the “right” version.
2) As in cooking once you break an egg you can’t put it back together. Even if they do revitalize Shotokan by adding some Shorin Ryu it won’t be the same as it was before they “watered it down”. Odd that they would even do that since there is still someone alive today in Okinawa that practices the old “Funakoshi style” kata that were around before the JKA got a hold of them. His father learned them from Funakoshi.


The styles that hold the back arm horizontal are emphasizing the pull on the testicles…..

Not necessarily.


However, if the kata's recognizably an Okinawan one, I'd like to see what those people have come up with for the bunkai. I may think it's hooey, but it at least tells me what the kata is NOT doing there.

On this part I refer back to my first post on this thread.


1) I have found a few different applications for many moves in kata. Often, they suggest a GOTH technique.
2) In other words, if what my primary technique is doesn't work because they twist out enough to resist, and I don't have time to modify it because of another threat, I may just be able to pull out another bunkai that I've trained.

1) Only a few?? ;)
2) Why not re-work the primary technique so it is more viable and has a quicker disabling capacity?? Then after that technique becomes more effective consider alternatives for the “what if” scenarios. Otherwise you will have a lot of techniques that kinda sorta work and need just as many “what if” back up techniques to be effective.


Also, if I can take one move and apply it to a different situation, it makes that move much more useful, and my neuromuscular conditioning that much more effecient.

This is actually a better approach than the one you suggested above.


Each also has limitations in the amount and kind of data which it can capture.

Not necessarily. Before I thought kata only held a certain number of techniques, however, the longer I look at kata the more I discover. My teacher has said he only feels he has discovered maybe only half of what he could…….he has trained for more than 60 years.
Not to be rude but I would consider his advice on kata some what more credible than yours. Again I am not trying to be rude but the man has trained over twice as long as you have been alive.


If you add in context, like stickyhands, randori, various grappling exercises, makiwara, other conditioning, partners to train with, etc, the kata come alive again.

I haven’t trained without any of those aspects so in that respect the kata have always been “alive” for me.


This, essentially, is what I'm trying to bring about with Jiin, to make it live again, at least in my own person and in the school I train in.

Sounds more like you are trying to justify your reverse engineering of it.

Trevor Johnson
22nd July 2005, 18:41
I see. Well, to me they are a bit different. Discussion seems to be more of a dialogue where both people listen and talk in turn. Arguments tend to be one side conversations and nobody listens and nothing is understood by both sides. My point was more that I conduct myself the same in both. I'm not the one who makes the decision to discuss or to argue.


Actually Okinawan bunkai is not as similar among different styles as some would believe. I have many friends that train/trained in various Okinawan Honbu. I have seen some of the bunkai they practice and in many cases it is not the same as what I do or some other people’s I know. Which is kind of the point. Different things work for different people with different bodies and different minds. One of the reason to "collect" bunkai is to benefit from the minds of others. Same thing I do in science. I read other peoples papers and work with their ideas, and get ideas for experiments from them. Or I have data that trumps theirs. It can work both ways.



1) This tends to be a problem doesn’t it. I mean people think whatever they see the most of MUST be the “right” version.
2) As in cooking once you break an egg you can’t put it back together. Even if they do revitalize Shotokan by adding some Shorin Ryu it won’t be the same as it was before they “watered it down”. Odd that they would even do that since there is still someone alive today in Okinawa that practices the old “Funakoshi style” kata that were around before the JKA got a hold of them. His father learned them from Funakoshi.
Actually, Shorin Ryu is descended from Shotokan, and is a "revitalized" version thereof. What was added in was more chinese types of techniques. (Shorin=Japanized Shaolin)
And I don't consider Shotokan the right version, nor most tournament styles either. It is, however, what I'll see most. Therefore, accept or reject it, it's what I'm going to be responding to, whether I like it or not.


1) Only a few?? ;)
2) Why not re-work the primary technique so it is more viable and has a quicker disabling capacity?? Then after that technique becomes more effective consider alternatives for the “what if” scenarios. Otherwise you will have a lot of techniques that kinda sorta work and need just as many “what if” back up techniques to be effective.
There's actually a benefit in nested techniques, you know. One technique is less effective, but can be used to control or put someone into a certain position, another may be more effective but very nasty, and I can't use it all the time for legal reasons. There's not just sparring and one-on-one, there's strategic concerns involved. If I go head-to-head with someone, and they have a buddy, I may be in trouble. If I am protecting someone, I may not want to use techniques that would move my enemy towards my ward. There's all sorts of things you may need to be able to do, and having a variety of options helps a lot.


This is actually a better approach than the one you suggested above. Thank you. I personally see merit in both.


Not necessarily. Before I thought kata only held a certain number of techniques, however, the longer I look at kata the more I discover. My teacher has said he only feels he has discovered maybe only half of what he could…….he has trained for more than 60 years.
Not to be rude but I would consider his advice on kata some what more credible than yours. Again I am not trying to be rude but the man has trained over twice as long as you have been alive.
That's fine, I'm certain he's skilled and experienced. I have no ego problem with people being senior to me. (unlike some chinese friends of mine, who wish they could worship some of their living ancestors in spirit form. Not terribly big on Confucius. :D )
One of the things about kata is that they're very dense information storage. However, they only hold certain types of information. This information is only properly unpacked by the imagination of the practitioner, which means that the points contained within the kata can give rise to an infinite number of designs. Some make more or less sense, of course, but that's to be expected. The question really is, what are you looking for in the kata? If you're looking for elegance, grace, and pretty technique, you will find it. If you're looking for something that doesn't do much damage but allows great control, you can find it. If you're looking for something nasty that will kill a person very fast, well, there're any number of neck breaks, evil falls, etc in th e kata, if you know how to look for them.
I tend to look for all three to some extent. I feel that elegance and grace in movement and form are necessary for me and my development of the art, and that being able to kill or control one or more people as necessary is necessary for me and for those I care for.


I haven’t trained without any of those aspects so in that respect the kata have always been “alive” for me.
I did for a few years before I found my current sensei. I'm never going back. You would not believe some of the things that people were trying to make up as bunkai because their limited experience limited their imagination. I'm a fairly critical person, again, as a scientist, it's pretty important for me to be so. Even as a novice, I could tell that some of their bunkai wouldn't work worth a darn, that the muscles weren't strong enough that way, or that people just don't break that way.


Sounds more like you are trying to justify your reverse engineering of it. If you wish to call it such, be my guest. What I'm trying to do is take the basic movements that I've seen and flesh them out so they hold some life. I don't want to change the movements, but understanding why they are the way they are is important. (Though I'm definitely not doing the shotokan version, with its missing movements and stilted style. ) This process is pretty basic right now. With time, I'll learn to do it better, increase my knowledge of sources, etc.
Bunkai are basically analysis. I think that that's actually what the word means, though I could be wrong. Analysis involves a critical mindset and a way of thinking. One of the things I have noticed, having worked in a number of labs, is that everyone thinks differently about a problem, and that people are often limited by their own minds. If I learn another person's bunkai, I'm not so much learning the physical applications (which are important, yes) as learning how they THINK about the kata, and what they consider important. I'm free to agree or disagree with them, and there are people far senior to me in Shotokan with whom I disagree. I don't like the way that they think about their karate.

Troll Basher
23rd July 2005, 07:12
1) Different things work for different people with different bodies and different minds. One of the reason to "collect" bunkai is to benefit from the minds of others.


2) Actually, Shorin Ryu is descended from Shotokan, and is a "revitalized" version thereof.

3) (unlike some chinese friends of mine, who wish they could worship some of their living ancestors in spirit form. Not terribly big on Confucius. :D )

4) However, they only hold certain types of information.


1) Real technique works on all or most people. Almost anything will work on someone weaker so if your technique is not working on someone bigger or stronger than you then you need to re-think what you are doing….
2) Uhh….I don’t know who told you that but they are wrong. I think you need to re-read some of the history of karate because that statement is “bass akwards”.
3) Not sure what you are talking about here….inside joke or something???
4) According to your concepts and theories maybe.

Trevor Johnson
23rd July 2005, 22:47
1) Real technique works on all or most people. Almost anything will work on someone weaker so if your technique is not working on someone bigger or stronger than you then you need to re-think what you are doing….
2) Uhh….I don’t know who told you that but they are wrong. I think you need to re-read some of the history of karate because that statement is “bass akwards”.
3) Not sure what you are talking about here….inside joke or something???
4) According to your concepts and theories maybe.
1. agree. Not sure why you think mine doesn't. Though not all techniques work quite the same on people of different height. I prefer to pull peoples' hair, when I can, and people who don't have hair mean I have to change something to get a different grip. (unfortunately when you're training in 110 heat index, anything other than hair can be too sweaty to properly grab, and we don't use gis outside.) Toppling people larger than me is different than smaller, simply because their shoulders sometimes get in the way of techniques or they bend different so I have to modify my strikes a bit. Same with all different body sizes and shapes.
2. also agree. Mea culpa. Got two homophones mixed up. Shorinji and Shorin-ryu. One is Shuri, the other is Shaolin, and of course they sound the same. Though I should point out that Shorin-ryu has gotten a lot of backwash from japanese karate anyway, and Naha-te has gotten less, being more "backwater" type.
3. Quasi-inside joke. I've observed that most western-raised chinese girls that I know don't really like the whole Confucian father thing...
4. Sorry, would you care to expand/expound on this. It's a tad vague.

powerof0ne
25th July 2005, 02:37
Trollbasher I couldn't agree with you more..I had the same sort of thing happened to me when I was a shodan "trading notes" with a shorin ryu guy(I'm shito ryu) on chinto and the bunkai of it...Just a month or so later I see him trying to do the bunkai I was showing and not his to someone and expressed my anger of him doing the bunkai wrong..and the fact he was now the new "kata expert". I guess you had to be in my shoes to truly understand but I think you have an idea of what I'm talking about Trollbasher. I'm not too quick to get into a discussion on the internet over proper bunkai because of my past with the individual I talked about. I don't want someone going out and teaching what I briefly showed them when they don't understand how to do it. The same goes for me, just because I can watch some video clips on on the other styles doesn't give me a right to "add" it to my repertoire of curriculum I should teach to others.
The internet/www is a great tool if used right to reference, not to replace your Sensei. Unfortunately I think too many people are using the Internet as an instructor to learn from instead of bleeding and sweating in the dojo.
Trevor, I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that Funakoshi sent some of his senior students to learn kata from Kenwa Mabuni(who knew more than Funakoshi).
Before you think I'm doing a "my style is better than your style"..I'm not at all. I like Shotokan and can find pros and cons in all the different styles of karate-do. Many of my "more" Okinawan style practitioner friends try to put down the bunkai of shito ryu but I also can find faults in there style. No style that I have ever seen is 100% complete. I'm aware that youre shotokan sensei has done some sort of change of curriculum in your shotokan Trevor in many ways...I forgot though, does your sensei still claim to be teaching shotokan because it sounds like it has a shotokan base but has evolved into something else.

Troll Basher
25th July 2005, 05:07
1. agree. Not sure why you think mine doesn't. Though not all techniques work quite the same on people of different height. I prefer to pull peoples' hair, when I can, and people who don't have hair mean I have to change something to get a different grip. (unfortunately when you're training in 110 heat index, anything other than hair can be too sweaty to properly grab, and we don't use gis outside.) Toppling people larger than me is different than smaller, simply because their shoulders sometimes get in the way of techniques or they bend different so I have to modify my strikes a bit. Same with all different body sizes and shapes.
2. Quasi-inside joke. I've observed that most western-raised chinese girls that I know don't really like the whole Confucian father thing...
4. Sorry, would you care to expand/expound on this. It's a tad vague.

1) What I said: real technique works on most anybody….I never have thought the “hair pull” as a self-defense tool was any good. Mainly since I don’t have much to pull, also pulling hair is sort of an unsophisticated/immature not very well thought out technique.

2) Still don’t get it……..and not really interested.
3) You said: “However, they (kata) only hold certain types of information.” And my reply was “According to your concepts and theories maybe.” I think they hold more than you propose.

Hopefully this won’t sound rude. Judging from your posts and some of the concepts you have suggested you seem to be like a kid that has just discovered a new toy and wants to tell people how much you know. I can say this because at one time I was at the place in my training you are at now and had some of the same “realizations” you are. However, I have moved on from that spot and allowed myself to learn more from people that were farther along in the “journey” than me.

Trevor Johnson
25th July 2005, 18:41
Trollbasher I couldn't agree with you more..I had the same sort of thing happened to me when I was a shodan "trading notes" with a shorin ryu guy(I'm shito ryu) on chinto and the bunkai of it...Just a month or so later I see him trying to do the bunkai I was showing and not his to someone and expressed my anger of him doing the bunkai wrong..and the fact he was now the new "kata expert". I guess you had to be in my shoes to truly understand but I think you have an idea of what I'm talking about Trollbasher. I'm not too quick to get into a discussion on the internet over proper bunkai because of my past with the individual I talked about. I don't want someone going out and teaching what I briefly showed them when they don't understand how to do it. The same goes for me, just because I can watch some video clips on on the other styles doesn't give me a right to "add" it to my repertoire of curriculum I should teach to others.

This makes little sense to me. Are you saying that your techniques are all 'hiden?' and not to be shown to outsiders, or that you just hate teaching someone and seeing them get it wrong, or that you want credit for the things that you teach? I'm not, personally, planning on taking something without explaining that this is something that I learned from x of y style, and this is why they think it. It'll be in my notes and my written record. In the end, I don't see why styles are separate, save largely for politics. Well and truly it is written that if you have two senior Japanese in the room, you have two styles. In the end, it has to be your karate, not that of your instructor, and moving off and founding a style based on the fact that you think differently from one of your fellow students seems to me a little silly. There should be room for all of us.


The internet/www is a great tool if used right to reference, not to replace your Sensei. Unfortunately I think too many people are using the Internet as an instructor to learn from instead of bleeding and sweating in the dojo.
Trevor, I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that Funakoshi sent some of his senior students to learn kata from Kenwa Mabuni(who knew more than Funakoshi).
Before you think I'm doing a "my style is better than your style"..I'm not at all. I like Shotokan and can find pros and cons in all the different styles of karate-do. Many of my "more" Okinawan style practitioner friends try to put down the bunkai of shito ryu but I also can find faults in there style. No style that I have ever seen is 100% complete. I'm aware that youre shotokan sensei has done some sort of change of curriculum in your shotokan Trevor in many ways...I forgot though, does your sensei still claim to be teaching shotokan because it sounds like it has a shotokan base but has evolved into something else.
Righto.
If you read something of the conversation that we came from, you would know that my sensei specifically GAVE me this assignment. He wants me to be able to think for myself, and being able to analyze kata is a large part of that. Using my own brain, I've come up with a number of bunkai for Jiin, some similar to ones I know from Jion, some different. He's going to show me Jitte in a few weeks and give me a few of his bunkai for that to help me, but he's deliberately trying NOT to bias my research. So, I've used my own ideas to brainstorm applications, and now I'm looking for other ideas to help me brainstorm. Some of the analyses I will agree with, some not, some I may modify to suit my body. I will then turn the bunkai into drills which can be used to teach people the various nested applications within the kata. Within 6 months to a year, I hope to have this completed, and if I'm done in less than 6 months, I haven't done enough.

I have no problem learning from other people. That's part of what my teacher wants me to do, here, so I'm not stuck in that godawful "my-sensei-is-the-fount-of-all-knowledge-and-the-specially-favored-of-the-
kami-despite-his-total-lack-of-Japanese-blood" mentality that I've seen elsewhere. He's very keen on not being worshipped, and if he ever thinks we're respecting him too much, tells us stories of his disreputable youth to keep us from error. He knows he's fallible, but figures he does the best he can, and as long as we realize he's not the origin and fountainhead, we're doing ok.

My own thoughts on Shotokan is that I prefer "Shoto's" karate to modern Shotokan karate. Very different things. Some people have done some good things within the system, but it's not my favorite system. My teacher started as Shotokan, and really is more of, as he puts it, a "recovering" Shotokan practitioner. He showed me those wonderful kata tapes made by Kenneth Funakoshi, and frankly, if that's Shotokan bunkai, they can keep it.

Trevor Johnson
25th July 2005, 18:59
1) What I said: real technique works on most anybody….I never have thought the “hair pull” as a self-defense tool was any good. Mainly since I don’t have much to pull, also pulling hair is sort of an unsophisticated/immature not very well thought out technique.

2) Still don’t get it……..and not really interested.
3) You said: “However, they (kata) only hold certain types of information.” And my reply was “According to your concepts and theories maybe.” I think they hold more than you propose.

Hopefully this won’t sound rude. Judging from your posts and some of the concepts you have suggested you seem to be like a kid that has just discovered a new toy and wants to tell people how much you know. I can say this because at one time I was at the place in my training you are at now and had some of the same “realizations” you are. However, I have moved on from that spot and allowed myself to learn more from people that were farther along in the “journey” than me.

Actually, it sounds extraordinarily condescending. Putting that aside, however, lets get back down to brass tacks.

1. I personally like pulling hair, or its substitutes, beards, face, eye sockets, ears, and whatever else I can grab. If nothing else, there's always neck and throat. I don't like long-range techniques, I think that the bunkai based on them are often poorly supported by the kata. Kata such as tekki/naihanchi, with their close-in strikes, joint locks, and takedowns, are imho evidence that the okinawans generally didn't think in terms of long-range sparring. Furthermore, if you're doing grappling and close-in fighting, not thinking in terms of grabbing such things is dangerous, since then you're really surprised when they do it to you! Funakoshi wasn't above things like testicle grabs, himself. (Frankly, as short as he was, it was a perfect target for him. )
One of the advantages provided by such grabs is that it allows very easy kuzushi. People go where their head points, and this makes breaking them down very easy, and less force is needed to subdue people.

3. I'm not sure what you think I'm saying here, so let's try it again. What I'm trying to say is that solo kata, which is what most karate styles practice, don't encode information like how bodies clash, how to negotiate for position before a lot of the techniques, and they're not very specific about what the exact technique that you're doing is, or what the attack is. They're a representation that you need to have the key to in order to unlock it. The key includes a great deal of things like randori, stickyhands, and mirroring drills, as well as kihon.
After that, you still need a lot of cultural information to decode certain things, like the asymmetry of the kata, the reason why certain techniques are repeated thrice, and why no technique is repeated four times in quick succession. It's the same reason, btw, that no KORYU kata has 4 techniques. Some of the arm positions have their roots in Indian culture, some may have indicated weapons use, like Chintei.
You also need a fair bit of historical information. Figuring out who taught the kata is helpful, as is who modified it, and why if you can figure it out. Knowing how kata, and karate in general, were modified and "modernized" in this century and the last helps as well.

Also, if you don't like MY concepts and theories, feel free to propose concepts and theories of your own, or of your style, unless of course they're gokui, in which case tell me that.

If you're saying that one thing I need to do is learn from people who are "farther along in the “journey” than me," then why are you telling me that I should not be asking these questions? Only way to learn from another is ask.

Troll Basher
25th July 2005, 22:56
1) Actually, it sounds extraordinarily condescending.

2) I personally like pulling hair, or its substitutes, beards, face, eye sockets, ears, and whatever else I can grab. If nothing else, there's always neck and throat.
3) What I'm trying to say is that solo kata, which is what most karate styles practice, don't encode information like how bodies clash, how to negotiate for position before a lot of the techniques, and they're not very specific about what the exact technique that you're doing is, or what the attack is.
4) They're a representation that you need to have the key to in order to unlock it. The key includes a great deal of things like randori, stickyhands, and mirroring drills, as well as kihon. After that, you still need a lot of cultural information to decode certain things, like the asymmetry of the kata, the reason why certain techniques are repeated thrice,
A) and why no technique is repeated four times in quick succession. It's the same reason, btw, that no KORYU kata has 4 techniques. Some of the arm positions have their roots in Indian culture, some may have indicated weapons use, like Chintei.
You also need a fair bit of historical information. Figuring out who taught the kata is helpful, as is who modified it, and why if you can figure it out.
5) Also, if you don't like MY concepts and theories, feel free to propose concepts and theories of your own, or of your style, unless of course they're gokui, in which case tell me that.
6) If you're saying that one thing I need to do is learn from people who are "farther along in the “journey” than me," then why are you telling me that I should not be asking these questions? Only way to learn from another is ask.

1) Maybe it is.
2) My view still stands the same in my previous post on this subject.
3) Don’t they? This just reiterates my point about your ideas on kata that you think is condescending. Basically all you have discovered is a small tree and haven't seen the huge forest that surrounds it…. There are a lot more trees and many different types.
4) As well as knowing how to “read” kata.
A) There are several kata that come to mind that have movements repeated 4 times. Pinan Shodan has the shuto type hand movements repeated 4 times…twice to the left then twice to the right. Kusanku as well….
5) There is no big secret to them. I just don’t feel like hammering them out on the internet….especially for someone I don’t know. It’s not my job to persuade you or “convert” you. If you want to know more there are 2 books you should read. The first one is RyuTe® no Michi by Taika Oyata, the second is Ryukyu Kempo, History and Basics by Jim Logue. They can be found here: http: http://www.ryu-te-supplies.com/Books%20and%20Tapes.htm
6) Show me where I said “you shouldn’t be asking question”.

Actually I was not too interested in having this discussion with you in the first place since true kata discussion needs to be more visual than the internet will allow. However, I thought you wanted an opportunity to you say your piece about kata since you obviously have a great interest in it. Secondly, I don’t know you and as I stated before have no interest in typing out page after page of information on kata & kata practice. It took me many years of training and hours of sweat to earn what bit of knowledge I have on kata and I am certainly not going to shovel the whole lot of it out on the internet to a person I have never met. As I said in my previous post, I have been where you are at now and can tell you there is much more to learn and unlearn.

Trevor Johnson
26th July 2005, 04:15
In that case, I don't think that talking to you is particularly useful for me. We obviously have different opinions, and I think we're talking past each other. I see little benefit in continuing this, and will not get anything I cannot get elsewhere.

Thank you for what you have already contributed, and I wish you good day.

Troll Basher
26th July 2005, 04:27
1) In that case, I don't think that talking to you is particularly useful for me.
2) We obviously have different opinions, and I think we're talking past each other.
3) I see little benefit in continuing this, and will not get anything I cannot get elsewhere.

1) Well I didn’t get into this conversation so that I could be “useful” for you. You wanted to eulogize your ideas on why comparing and contrasting with other styles was such a great idea and I gave my opinions why that wasn’t such a good way to go at it.
2) Actually that’s not true. I keep telling you I have been were you are now and had those ideas and opinions. So you are obviously not getting what I am saying.
3) This is what I was talking about before. You are running around trying to get info on bunkai instead of exploring it yourself….doing your own homework.

I watched those mpegs on your website you might want to start there……..

Trevor Johnson
26th July 2005, 05:04
1) Well I didn’t get into this conversation so that I could be “useful” for you. You wanted to eulogize your ideas on why comparing and contrasting with other styles was such a great idea and I gave my opinions why that wasn’t such a good way to go at it.
2) Actually that’s not true. I keep telling you I have been were you are now and had those ideas and opinions. So you are obviously not getting what I am saying.
3) This is what I was talking about before. You are running around trying to get info on bunkai instead of exploring it yourself….doing your own homework.

I watched those mpegs on your website you might want to start there……..

2. No, and you're not getting what I'm saying, or you wouldn't be saying some of what you're saying. As I said, I see no point in talking past you.

3. read what I've written. Thoroughly. If you still say that, then there's really no point.

If you're talking about the wankan mpegs, yes, I know they exist. Same with Gotushiho-sho. You may not realize this, but those mpegs are the DIRECT RESULT OF OTHERS IN THE DOJO DOING EXACTLY THE KIND OF RESEARCH MY SENSEI HAS INSTRUCTED ME TO DO! Get it?

I don't know if you realize this, but in the early days of modern karate, there were some black belts who had research projects, given out by their seniors. Out of these came some useful concepts and some nonsense.

Research into the past, critical thinking of my own. Brainstorming ON MY OWN about the kata, then looking at different ways of thinking about kata, and THEN using the worldviews of more experienced people to take a crack at it. All this is what I am doing, and what I see as necessary to understand kata.

My sensei is not the fountainhead of all knowledge, and would be pissed if I EVER thought that. His karate is his, if mine's not different than his, with my own understanding of the art, he's failed. And he's told me this.

This is my best shot at telling you WHAT I NEED TO DO. You brought up the question, and I really am not going to debate it further. You might ask Harry Cook about it. I'm hoping he's senior enough for you.

I don't think you think about kata the way I do. At all, from what you're saying. So this discussion is futile.

Finis.

powerof0ne
26th July 2005, 05:10
This makes little sense to me. Are you saying that your techniques are all 'hiden?' and not to be shown to outsiders, or that you just hate teaching someone and seeing them get it wrong, or that you want credit for the things that you teach? I'm not, personally, planning on taking something without explaining that this is something that I learned from x of y style, and this is why they think it. It'll be in my notes and my written record. In the end, I don't see why styles are separate, save largely for politics. Well and truly it is written that if you have two senior Japanese in the room, you have two styles. In the end, it has to be your karate, not that of your instructor, and moving off and founding a style based on the fact that you think differently from one of your fellow students seems to me a little silly. There should be room for all of us.


Righto.
If you read something of the conversation that we came from, you would know that my sensei specifically GAVE me this assignment. He wants me to be able to think for myself, and being able to analyze kata is a large part of that. Using my own brain, I've come up with a number of bunkai for Jiin, some similar to ones I know from Jion, some different. He's going to show me Jitte in a few weeks and give me a few of his bunkai for that to help me, but he's deliberately trying NOT to bias my research. So, I've used my own ideas to brainstorm applications, and now I'm looking for other ideas to help me brainstorm. Some of the analyses I will agree with, some not, some I may modify to suit my body. I will then turn the bunkai into drills which can be used to teach people the various nested applications within the kata. Within 6 months to a year, I hope to have this completed, and if I'm done in less than 6 months, I haven't done enough.

I have no problem learning from other people. That's part of what my teacher wants me to do, here, so I'm not stuck in that godawful "my-sensei-is-the-fount-of-all-knowledge-and-the-specially-favored-of-the-
kami-despite-his-total-lack-of-Japanese-blood" mentality that I've seen elsewhere. He's very keen on not being worshipped, and if he ever thinks we're respecting him too much, tells us stories of his disreputable youth to keep us from error. He knows he's fallible, but figures he does the best he can, and as long as we realize he's not the origin and fountainhead, we're doing ok.

My own thoughts on Shotokan is that I prefer "Shoto's" karate to modern Shotokan karate. Very different things. Some people have done some good things within the system, but it's not my favorite system. My teacher started as Shotokan, and really is more of, as he puts it, a "recovering" Shotokan practitioner. He showed me those wonderful kata tapes made by Kenneth Funakoshi, and frankly, if that's Shotokan bunkai, they can keep it.

Yup I basically don't like showing others that I don't know well something and having them try to teach it when they aren't really doing it right. I'm no "master" and realize there are a lot more experienced karateka on this site than me but having had someone teach something I showed them a few times was a slap in my face. I find your karate club interesting Trevor and wish you the best of luck but think you're going to have to find your answers by going to other dojo, reading books, training with karateka from other styles and that sort of thing. We're all students and should somewhat experience other styles to some degree to get a better understanding of karate.
I'm no karate-do prodigy...I can remember when I was a kid taking forever to learn the most simple kata and than one day it all sort of snapped. The only MA I felt I caught on too quickly was Muay Thai but I credit that to allready being a shodan in Karate-do.

Trevor Johnson
26th July 2005, 05:35
Yup I basically don't like showing others that I don't know well something and having them try to teach it when they aren't really doing it right. I'm no "master" and realize there are a lot more experienced karateka on this site than me but having had someone teach something I showed them a few times was a slap in my face.

A reasonable attitude. Especially if they do it wrong.


I find your karate club interesting Trevor and wish you the best of luck but think you're going to have to find your answers by going to other dojo, reading books, training with karateka from other styles and that sort of thing. We're all students and should somewhat experience other styles to some degree to get a better understanding of karate.

Which is exactly what I'm doing. Nobody ever stops learning. I'm currently working on The Life-Giving Sword, then going for The Sword and The Mind, and after that going for yet more, possibly a translation of the Heiho Kadensho, if I can get a good one.
One of the things that really helps is realizing that the martial arts developed with a cultural zeitgeist different from our own. I don't know if you realize it, but there are Western martial arts that used kata as well. Harry Cook found a German halberd manual with kata in it, and I've seen references to others in some of the books I've read. The reason we think of the Eastern martial arts as "Mysteeeerious" is that it developed in such a different culture. When you can get a good idea of the milieu in which it developed, it isn't so mysterious, it's just a way of fighting. The difference is that the kata, which we didn't have in our unarmed arts, allow a transmission of specific information down the years, despite the fact that they keep getting changed by such rude and spurious upstarts as Itosu and Azato, among many others. :D

Good to talk to you, btw. I know I didn't get much, but it was at least a cordial exchange.

Troll Basher
26th July 2005, 05:58
1) No, and you're not getting what I'm saying, or you wouldn't be saying some of what you're saying. As I said, I see no point in talking past you.

2) read what I've written. Thoroughly. If you still say that, then there's really no point.
3) If you're talking about the wankan mpegs, yes, I know they exist. Same with Gotushiho-sho. You may not realize this, but those mpegs are the DIRECT RESULT OF OTHERS IN THE DOJO DOING EXACTLY THE KIND OF RESEARCH MY SENSEI HAS INSTRUCTED ME TO DO! Get it?
4) I don't know if you realize this, but in the early days of modern karate, there were some black belts who had research projects, given out by their seniors. Out of these came some useful concepts and some nonsense.
5) Research into the past, critical thinking of my own. Brainstorming ON MY OWN about the kata, then looking at different ways of thinking about kata, and THEN using the worldviews of more experienced people to take a crack at it. All this is what I am doing, and what I see as necessary to understand kata.
6) You brought up the question, and I really am not going to debate it further.
7) You might ask Harry Cook about it. I'm hoping he's senior enough for you.
8) I don't think you think about kata the way I do.
Finis.

1) If you understood what I was saying you wouldn’t be writing anymore.
2) I have.
3) Yeah I get it. You obviously don’t get it that I think the bunkai in most of those mpegs in a word…sucks. I will go through the wankan mpegs one by one…1# has potential and is not bad. 2# was obviously pulled out of some JKA closet and dusted off…gotta love those posed kamae….not well thought out at all. 3# is one of the worst….who is the attacker in that? Looks as if the “JKA stanced” guy is trying to be attacker and defender. The double punch at the end hahahahaha 4-3# is just bad in all aspects of technique…4-5# is just a close up up 4-3. All this goes directly back to what I was saying about snooping around other dojo for bunkai.
4) And????
5) Judging from your mpeg collection you are not taking a very realistic view towards self-defense.
6) You actually suggested this thread………
7) I don’t know him or how he trains so I can’t honestly answer that.
8) Not anymore I don’t…..maybe years ago when I was new to the MA but have seen and felt too much to think that way anymore.

Troll Basher
26th July 2005, 06:25
1) Nobody ever stops learning.
2) I don't know if you realize it, but there are Western martial arts that used kata as well. Harry Cook found a German halberd manual with kata in it, and I've seen references to others in some of the books I've read.

1) Never said you should stop learning…..in fact I think I encouraged you to do the opposite just in a different way than you have been.
2) You should look into the Hoplos Society

Trevor Johnson
26th July 2005, 06:36
1) If you understood what I was saying you wouldn’t be writing anymore. What I understand from you is mostly negative. I have no use for people telling me that what I'm doing is wrong, without bothering or feeling it worth their time to tell me what they believe is right.


2) I have .You have not. Or if you have, you have not paid any attention to understanding them. I have had to restate things several times because you didn't bother to read them the first, second, or third time that I said them.


6) You actually suggested this thread……….You asked the question that started this thread. I didn't feel like cluttering up the Jiin thread with this, so I moved it here. 'nuff said.


7) I don’t know him or how he trains so I can’t honestly answer that.
Then I think it would benefit you to learn. He's not only senior to you, he's vastly more educated about the MA, and can hold his own in pretty much any area I've seen. Look on this site and see for yourself. If you're going to read any book about the martial arts that would benefit you, I think that it would be his Precise History of Shotokan Karate. You would find much to inform you.

If you think that way about the mpegs, then you truly do not understand what they're meant to do, which is unfortunate. What we do for self-defense is quite workable, and proceeds directly from kata. One of the things that we were doing there is to take the exact movements of the kata, and show how something could be made from them. If we had modified them in any jot and tittle, purists would have screamed. As it is, you screamed. So be it. I'm not going to bother to explain the ura-waza that those turn into. They're derived from the kata, they don't look all that much like the exact moves of the kata, which are more of an infinitive than anything else, really, and that's all I really should need to say.


I'm not going to lock this thread. I find that exceedingly rude, and quite futile, as recent events demonstrate. I will not, however, be checking here any more. I have far too much to do as it is, and don't find any point in waging a futile debate. You may feel free to vilify me, to post what you like here. Your good opinion is not my everything. Good day to you.

Troll Basher
26th July 2005, 06:50
1) I have no use for people telling me that what I'm doing is wrong, without bothering or feeling it worth their time to tell me what they believe is right.
2) You have not. Or if you have, you have not paid any attention to understanding them. I have had to restate things several times because you didn't bother to read them the first, second, or third time that I said them.
3) Then I think it would benefit you to learn. He's not only senior to you, he's vastly more educated about the MA, and can hold his own in pretty much any area I've seen. Look on this site and see for yourself. If you're going to read any book about the martial arts that would benefit you, I think that it would be his Precise History of Shotokan Karate. You would find much to inform you.
4) If you think that way about the mpegs, then you truly do not understand what they're meant to do, which is unfortunate. What we do for self-defense is quite workable, and proceeds directly from kata.
5) One of the things that we were doing there is to take the exact movements of the kata, and show how something could be made from them. If we had modified them in any jot and tittle, purists would have screamed. As it is, you screamed.
6) So be it. I'm not going to bother to explain the ura-waza that those turn into. They're derived from the kata, they don't look all that much like the exact moves of the kata, which are more of an infinitive than anything else, really, and that's all I really should need to say.
7) I'm not going to lock this thread. I find that exceedingly rude, and quite futile, as recent events demonstrate. I will not, however, be checking here any more. I have far too much to do as it is, and don't find any point in waging a futile debate. You may feel free to vilify me, to post what you like here. Your good opinion is not my everything. Good day to you.

1) I have given you several examples but you seem to think you know everything.
2) Oh well….thanks for telling me what I have and haven’t done.
3) Is he now? And just what degree(s) do I have??? You don’t know what I have done.
4) I see. OK, then since I am so stupid explain to me what they are supposed to do. The website said “wankan application” so to me that seems like that is what it is supposed to be showing…..enlighten me.
5) So you think I would scream if you modified it uh… Again you think you know me…...for one thing kata application is hardly ever exactly as it looks like in the kata….it can’t be to be effective. I guess that shoots your whole diatribe about saying you understand where I come from out of the water.
6) Hey, I am just going by what it says on your webpage “wankan application”
7) I understand if you can’t justify the mpegs and the movements in them….no need to go away in a huff.