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Ade
27th July 2005, 01:44
Gassho

Well they're starting to arrive and here are the problems so far:

1. They are too expensive: lightweight beginner's gi is about £50, bought in Japan without shipping costs included.

2. They don't fit: I'm in posession of a 5L, I would need to be 6'4" and 10 stone to fit it. I can state categorically that they are NOT good looking when applied to Western genetics.

3. The registered trade mark "R" is incongruous and sets a strange tone.

4. What happens this year when my University student beginners arrive, in their first term, and I break the news that it costs £37 to join, and £58 for the uniform, and £3 per session, as opposed to that bloke. who teaches his own style of keng fa, on the next stand, that says wear what you like to start and the first month is free? (Not to mention the fact that under the unified brand I'll have kenshi wearing the old badge, the new badge and no badge because there are none left!!!)

Why are we doing this?

Kessu

Adrian.

satsukikorin
27th July 2005, 05:27
4. What happens this year when my University student beginners arrive, in their first term, and I break the news that it costs £37 to join, and £58 for the uniform, and £3 per session, as opposed to that bloke. who teaches his own style of keng fa, on the next stand, that says wear what you like to start and the first month is free?
Why can't you tell new students to wear any old appropriate clothes for the first month? Haven't we been over this? YOU CAN WEAR WHATEVER YOU WANT AT YOUR REGULAR PRACTICES.

Tripitaka of AA
27th July 2005, 06:11
Dogi :)

colin linz
27th July 2005, 07:08
Ade,

Did you use the measuring charts? Or did you go by previous sizes. I haven’t seen any ordered from the net, but I have seen a number of the new dogi’s on some visiting Kenshi, they looked OK. One of my guys has just ordered one using all the fitment charts. I hope it does fit him, I guess I will find out soon. They do state on their site that you need to allow for shrinkage with the cheaper dogi.

CityShorinji
27th July 2005, 10:38
I sympathise entirely with Ade's comments, and wholeheartedly concur. I too am looking forward to a vastly reduced intake of new students this year because of these new restrictions, due to the costs in taking up the activity now being far in excess of similar arts on offer. And while Satsukikorin's suggestion may look like a solution, the fact is you only start to lock in a new student when they start wearing their own dogi.

Sorry guys, but I hope you are starting to see what we were complaining about. BMs like Ade Starr and I are facing pretty huge challenges now that threaten not only the success of our dojos, but also Mizuno Sensei's stated policy of building SK in the UK through universities. This is precisely why I said earlier that this policy was introduced with little regard to the reality faced by BMs like us.

And yes, sadly, we have been over all this already. Pity we couldn't create any unity amongst ourselves to get the whole idiotic endeavour overturned.

I'll keep you all posted on how many new recruits I get in October and what they say. Watch this space.

jailess
27th July 2005, 14:40
This is really starting to be a big problem.

Getting SK started through Unis is a great idea, but put it this way: Muay That is the most populat MA in glasgow uni, I think: joining is about £50, and then you have to buy a pair of shorts, but only if you want to fight matches. If you just want to do the training and spar a little, you can wear whetever you want.

We need a local policy on Dogi for non-senior Kenshi. Brown belt and above, or even blue, should be wanting to get the new Dogi. but juniors and people who have been training for less than a year can't be expected to fork out £60 in one go. Of course, if they're really as big as Sensei Starr says, we could always fit 2 into the one suit and half the cost...

One thing about students is that they always have more money at the start of the year, when their loan cheque comes in. Maybe at the start of their 2nd year it should be policy to get them a proper Dogi then. Or make it compulsory, but only for Ikkyu and above. Has anyone talked to Mizuno-sensei about this? what does he think?

Steve Williams
28th July 2005, 08:29
Gassho

Well they're starting to arrive and here are the problems so far:

1. They are too expensive: lightweight beginner's gi is about £50, bought in Japan without shipping costs included.

2. They don't fit: I'm in posession of a 5L, I would need to be 6'4" and 10 stone to fit it. I can state categorically that they are NOT good looking when applied to Western genetics.

3. The registered trade mark "R" is incongruous and sets a strange tone.

4. What happens this year when my University student beginners arrive, in their first term, and I break the news that it costs £37 to join, and £58 for the uniform, and £3 per session, as opposed to that bloke. who teaches his own style of keng fa, on the next stand, that says wear what you like to start and the first month is free? (Not to mention the fact that under the unified brand I'll have kenshi wearing the old badge, the new badge and no badge because there are none left!!!)

Why are we doing this?

Kessu

Adrian.
To answer Ade..... (and Ade.....) quickly as I have to go to work.

1) They are expensive...... but there will be a cheaper option, just calm down and wait a little.

2) They do fit, but you must check the size charts, the sizes are NOT equivalent to the sizes of the old shorinjikempo dogi. I have now seen quite a few westerners wearing the new dogi, and they look/fit fine.

3) The registered mark can be seen as incongruous..... but how else does Hombu stop people using the symbol? It is not as bad (for the vadst majority of people) as you are making out.

4) When they join they can wear track suit/joggers+t-shirt for a few weeks.... as they probably always have...... If you are that concerned then get a cheap karate dogi for them to wear, badges are still available from hombu, just ask....... they are free of charge (for a reasonable number) to branch masters.
As far as costs are concerned, you as branch master can basically charge whatever you want as dojo fees, you can charge nothing or you can charge £20 an hour..... as long as the federation/WSKO/insurence fees are paid then it is not a problem.
As has been said before, you can wear whatever you want to your regular practice, when you go to a national/international event then it is expected that you wear the "official" uniform (i.e. dogi) but as the hombu info has stated the regulation that states you MUST have official shorinjikempo dogi does not come into force for a few years yet. Even then I sincerely believe that there will still be a little "leniency" as regards this ruling.

Why are we doing this?? To get a unified/worldwide image of Shorinji kempo... yes there are a few things which Hombu have been a little "rash" in doing, but all the bitching and moaning on here will not necessarily solve it, all it does is give us a bad image...... change is not necessarily a bad thing, and if the change is not to your liking then as a branch master you can e-mail/write to Hombu to voice your displeasure about things, they will listen and if your reasons are justified then they will take note and try to answer and alter things to suit them.

CityShorinji
28th July 2005, 10:39
It's a good answer Steve, I just can't bring myself to believe it. I am sure the point about fit can be resolved. However, I just don't believe they are going to be able to supply the cheap one without making it really, really cheap.

Why have they not offered a proper permanent badge of the new symbol? Ultimately it is BMs at grass roots level that hold the whole party line thing together - method of training, reciting Dokun, doing paperwork, insurance, memberships, kenshi conduct. Do you really think we can't ensure kenshi are well turned out and wear the right badge? It's so obvious the motivation for this is profit, it's just absolutely unmistakably obvious that they are trying to make a buck. To think we can't see it is an insult to our intelligence.

Ade
28th July 2005, 15:01
Dear All

Gassho

To summarize, because some of you are missing the point.

The product currently offered is sub standard and ill fitting, it doesn't even follow established size charts. I don't see any movement on price forthcoming and this has been going on for longer than a while.

If we don't air our complaints then nobody knows our feelings.

This is critical now, if we allow this to progress without addressing it immediately then it will be presented fait acompli, and the silence from Hombu in this regard is deafening.

By registered mark I mean the small "R" under the unified symbol, because of it how can I say (http://www.bskf.org/bskf.html):

" The British Shorinji Kempo Federation (BSKF) is a non-profit organisation run entirely on the free time of its members. It was established in 1974 by its Chief Instructor, Sensei Mizuno, 8th Dan (Sei-Hanshi), and serves to promote and administer the practice of Shorinji Kempo in the UK."

to potential kenshi when the registered trade mark screams money maker.

And as to the assertion that I should just shut up because I'm making the organisation look bad can I state categorically that I don't observe it needs my help in that regard.

Ade

Tripitaka of AA
28th July 2005, 15:54
You cannot hope to effect change in this way. This is the wrong tactic for this conflict. The wrong choice of battlefield. Some of the contributions to this thread and others have been careful, considered and revealing. Others have resembled nothing more than a baby's rattle being thrown from a pram.

Consider the people whose opinions you are trying to affect. Consider their background. Use your cunning and awareness to find the weakness, exploit the opportunities as they arise. Bad-mouthing them and displaying a contempt for their decisions is only going to marginalise and lower the relative position for future negotiations.

Steve Williams
28th July 2005, 21:54
Dear All

Gassho

To summarize, because some of you are missing the point.
yes some are.


The product currently offered is sub standard and ill fitting, it doesn't even follow established size charts. I don't see any movement on price forthcoming and this has been going on for longer than a while.
It follows the size charts on the website, I don't know about established charts, but if you say so then I guess you are right.
There is movement on prices...... just wait a little.


If we don't air our complaints then nobody knows our feelings.
True, but there is a time, place and way of airing grieviences.


This is critical now, if we allow this to progress without addressing it immediately then it will be presented fait acompli, and the silence from Hombu in this regard is deafening.
True, but I have always had a prompt reply from Hombu whenever I have asked them something, it may not be the answer I was seeking, but it was in no way deafening......



By registered mark I mean the small "R" under the unified symbol.....
I know that is what you meant, and I hope/assume everyone else knew that is what was meant, they do now anyway.


to potential kenshi when the registered trade mark screams money maker.
I don't think so, I think it just means registered trademark.


And as to the assertion that I should just shut up because I'm making the organisation look bad can I state categorically that I don't observe it needs my help in that regard.

Ade
Nobody said you should shut up, we all are entitled to our opinions....... but I do believe that all the moaning is/will give shorinjikempo a bad name, and that there is a time and place for airing grieviences. In my opinion here is not it........

colin linz
29th July 2005, 06:33
Well, one of my students rang me a short time ago. His new Shorinji Kempo dogi arrived and he is very happy with it. He has a black belt in Taekwondo and Hapkido, so he has some reference to judge the quality on. He used the fitment charts, and because of his size and shape needed to buy separate pants and top. He is very happy with the fit and quality. All up it cost him $140 AUD, this is a little cheaper than the equivalent Karate dogi’s that are available here. He even bought the white belt. He has others at home, but he liked the Shorinji Kempo symbol on it.

JL.
29th July 2005, 08:52
Gassho!

There's something I don't get: There has been a wide range of prices posted here, the general understanding seems to be something around £60 plus shipping in the UK. I was lucky enough for my Sempai to bring one from Japan, so no shipping costs. I paid €55 for it, which is the exact equivalent of the ¥7500 it had cost in Japan. That's more than 50% less than what You seem to pay. Where does that difference come from?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Indar
29th July 2005, 09:23
there is a time and place for airing grieviences. In my opinion here is not it........

There is supposed to be a channel for communication between the BM's and Hombu, which is the WSKO council.
Each federation should have a council representative who consults the BM's in that federation and then attends meetings at Hombu to put forward their views.
The replies to those comments should then be communciated back to the BM's.

P Goldsbury
29th July 2005, 14:32
Hello Everyone,

I am an interloper from aikido, but I have been following some of the discussions in the SK forum with great interest, because I think that the SK Hombu is doing things that the Aiikikai Hombu/IAF have never contemplated.

Much of this discussion appears to concern university clubs and I wonder about the ratio of university members vs. general (ippan) members in Japan and the UK: two countries of which I have immediate experience).

In Hiroshima University there is an SK club and an aikido club, both flourishing, and occasionally the clubs have to share the same tatami. So, during an academic year, I have seen how new members of both clubs go through the initiation rituals of their first year. Initially, they appear in sweat suits, or whatever is apropriate for those who have not yet become 'real' members. Then, at some point, all the first year students appear in pristine, brilliant white, nonsweat-stained keikogi (usually karate-style), as a mark of their inititiation into the club. The aikido students buy these keikogi as part of their club dues and I suspect that the members of the individual university clubs all buy their keikogi at a discount from local suppliers designated by the clubs. Peer pressure ensures that no member ever buys a keikogi other than through the club.

For non-university aikido clubs in Japan, there is a much wider margin of choice. Each club has a preferred supplier, but there is far less compulsion to buy the keikogi preferred by the local club. Thus, I have regularly bought my keikogi from a local shop in Hiroshima. The Aikikai Hombu have a recommended supplier, but the prices are generally higher than for local suppliers and ordering is complicated, especially for foreign aikidoka. Sometimes, a visiting Hombu shihan will tell me, "Peter, you keikogi does not fit you properly" (because I have not bought it from the recommended supplier), but I discount his biased opinion. However, hakama and obi are a different matter and I have always bought hakama and obi from the Hombu's designated supplier.

International aikido organizations present a different picture altogether and the Aikikai/IAF have always been keen to emphasize the fact that, while aikido is really the same all over the world, national organizations blend the universality of aikido with aspects of their own culture. So it is left to individual organizations and clubs to fulfill the minimum requirements of keikogi, belt, hakama (where approrpriate)

However, the Aikikai Hombu does not itself manufacture keikogi and hakama and the Hombu have never required members to buy their keikogi from their own designated supplier. I think that if they did, there would be a MAJOR international crisis, with accusations from around the world that the Hombu is favoring a particular commercial company.

I can understand that SK would want to promote a particular training style, which might also include a particular type of keikogi. However, to require members to buy keikogi from a particular supplier would seem to me to contravene rules governing free competition.

Or have I misunderstood?

Best regards to all,

colin linz
30th July 2005, 01:13
I think the concept of purchasing a licensed product is fairly well entrenched in business practices today. If you buy a business franchise you are usually compelled to purchase the materials you sell from them. Many companies seem to have policies of purchasing equipment or services from one supplier. Even sporting clubs and associations seem to have adopted this principle. There are many clubs that require you to buy their uniform from them or a contracted supplier. This philosophy has even carried over to Motorcycle Racing. The World Super Bike Championship now only allows competitors to use Pirelli Tyres.

It is true to say that SK is not a business, but it is a large organisation with a responsibility to provide a service, manage its funding for growth and to pay its bills. If they can gain additional funding without costing me more, through me buying a dogi at a similar price as I would have from another supplier, I don’t have any concerns. After seeing one of my students in his new dogi last night at training I have no concerns regarding the issue of quality and fit, and the total price including shipping was less than my last Isami dogi that I purchased.

I can understand that people don’t like their individual right to choose who they buy products from infringed; however I don’t think that WSKO has done anything unusual in implementing this policy.

David Dunn
30th July 2005, 16:12
Peter, thanks for the input. It makes sense. The university branches here in the UK that I have been involved with usually buy dogi in at bulk discount prices. There's no compulsion to buy them, but it's the easiest way for kenshi to get them, so that's what happens. Usually kenshi want to buy the 'proper' dogi when they've been training a couple of years.

Just to clarify. Hombu do not manufacture the dogi; they have gone through a process of issuing licences to various manufacturers (Ozaki and Maekawa in Japan). There is a sole distributor (Synapse), and the licence is issued by Shorinji Kempo Chizai. Licences to provide specification dogi may be issued to manufacturers in other countries. That process is ongoing in the UK, as Steve has alluded to twice. The stated aim is to protect the marks, methods and techniques of Shorinji Kempo, not to make money. Although making a bit of money is not a bad thing in my opinion. As has been stated before, the WSKO rules have always been that you wear an official Shorinji dogi. This rule has been enforced by peer pressure at Euston/Brixton branches - you don't want to be the one that looks different. And also suggestions from Sensei like "would you like me bring you back a new dogi when I go to Japan next week?" (*)

Jan, I'm not an expert in finance, but I think you might have seen an arbitrage opportunity. If you can buy yen with euros and sell them for pounds and back again to euros, you'll make a risk-free profit. Alternatively, I think what you're saying is that sixty pounds is overstating the price in sterling :)

(*) Some time ago Sensei promised to get me and George new belts when he went to Japan. He wrote the kana in his diary and off he went. He forgot to get them and was embarrassed. So he got Sanada Sensei of Tokyo University to get some made for us (I seem to recall that Sean collected them?) Anyway, the obi arrived. Sensei explained what a high quality they were and Sanada Sensei had gone to the best place in Tokyo as a special favour. "Thank you very much Sensei." "No problem. Here's the bill." :eek: Let's say that my dogi is worth less than the belt.

CityShorinji
30th July 2005, 17:52
First of all, thanks to Peter Goldsbury for a very interesting post. It's good to see how people from other styles view this (rather contentious) issue.

Second,




If they can gain additional funding without costing me more, through me buying a dogi at a similar price as I would have from another supplier, I don’t have any concerns.

I can understand that people don’t like their individual right to choose who they buy products from infringed.

I've been trying to communicate all along that:

1. the new gis ARE more expensive than my current option, by a considerable margin. I pay a trade rate of £25 (€38) plus postage for a good quality gi that lasts 4yrs+, which I then sell on to my students for £30. Over time I break even. Hombu isn't even going to get me a paper-thin dogi for that.

2. the cost of the new gis will kill my club over time as I won't compete on entry costs. That's the biggest cost. So where does Hombu get its income then? Sorry, but the UK students (as opposed to Canadian, apparently) that I teach are hard up and in debt due to some pretty daft government policies. I want them to have access to SK as I did. I couldn't have joined myself at the new levels.

3. I'm glad you agree on the loss of choice point, Colin. A business can of course choose a preferred supplier, for itself. BUT NOT FOR ITS CUSTOMERS.

4. Yes, licensing is rife in sport, as is the sponsorship you refer to. But SK is not about sport. I'll just have to keep on making this point until people finally get it. I'm as sick to death of making this distinction as I'm sure you all are of hearing it. YOU JUST CAN'T SAY YOUR ORGANISATION IS ABOUT MAKING AN IDEAL WORLD AND THEN EXPLOIT PEOPLE. THEY WON'T TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.

And thanks to those who have sent me off-record emails about keeping my trap shut on this point. Your objections are noted. The whole reason I do SK is under threat right now, and I've waited long enough for some movement on the issue. I don't believe change is possible at WSKO, so this is not some tactic to effect change. It's a venting of frustration at an idiotic policy that threatens all the effort I have put into my dojo over the last 6 years.

jailess
30th July 2005, 19:26
Simpson-sensei's got some good points. If you want SK to spread through universities (which is, as you know, critical to my crafty plan to get a 9th dan), you have to make it palatable to students. That means introducing costs little by little at a time, in bite-size pieces that they can digest, or, to put it another way, tricking them!

Giving them a big massive initial outlay is not the best way to capture their hearts. I thought Mizuno-sensei and Starr-sensei were conferring with a local supplier to get a SK dogi made within europe. Surely even one authorised supplier dealing with all of European SK organisations would be viable? Even a price of £20 would be ok for students; at the moment a cheap Dogi from our club costs £10-15, so that's not much of a price hike. £25-30's a bit dodgy. Over £50 is, for a first year, a week's drinking, and they probably wouldn't be prepared to fork it out.

As for the new mark, I think it looks nice enough, apart from the little (r) at the bottom-right, which should be tippexed over as BSKF policy.

colin linz
31st July 2005, 01:39
Adrian,

Under your individual circumstances I can see why this would be less attractive to you. Others that buy their dogi from regular suppliers will have no such negative effects though. It will just allow WSKO a greater funding opportunity, and cost most of us nothing extra.

I take your point about the financial aspects of Uni life. My club is community based and only a friendship club so I am a member of the Brisbane Branch (a uni based club). They echo your thoughts regarding costs. Cost though isn’t only an issue with the Uni clubs. Within my club I have about 4 uni students, 1 Technical Collage student, 2 apprentices and a couple of wage earners with families, money is very tight too. We are in the process of seeking permission to appoint a licensed manufacturer here that can provide a cheaper alternative, and from David’s post it seems you are too. If this can be done we will have a cost effective dogi that will provide the organisational image that WSKO are trying to establish and allow those members with tighter financial circumstances access to our training.

I’m not sure that we are customers. Once we join we pledging to work towards an ideal world, through the practice of the principle of Kong Zen. Our role at this stage is more aligned with representational duties; we are trying to sell or demonstrate a better way of living. Our currency is not money, but human relationships.

sam_majed
1st August 2005, 09:54
Gassho,

I don't think the new Dogis look bad, but I disaprove of the principle.

I have spoken to Hombu about it and it will be a subject during the WSKO General meeting in October. Many have been complaining about the cost which we now must pay; I proposed to Hombu two solutions:
1. Finding local suppliers to reduce posting cost, and increase competition.
2. Reducing prices according to WSKO zones (surely Kenshi in Africa cannot be expected to pay a month's salary for a Dogi!)

Until a reasonable solution is found, Hombu has agreed to extend the period for handing out badges for new members.

In Lebanon, I have decided NOT to buy the new Dogi until a solution is found.

The system is not perfect, and it is difficult to find one that works for ALL over the globe. So as far as voicing complaints is concerned: write the problem, propose a solution, and pass them to your BM who in turn should contact Hombu. In my experience, WSKO staff have been very helpful in helping me resolve many problems.

Sam Majed
Shorinji Kempo Beirut Branch

Indar
1st August 2005, 10:47
And thanks to those who have sent me off-record emails about keeping my trap shut on this point.

Adrian:

some time ago I received a late night telephone call from a senior member of the BSKF (and WSKO) who told me that I should shut up concerning a particular issue.
We subsequently had a meeting which included other members of the BSKF. I asked whether I should be free to express my sincerely held views. He agreed that I should.

In view of this I suggest that the people telling you to keep your trap shut misunderstand the true nature of Shorinji Kempo.

By the way, great post on the thread about reasons for staying within Shorinji Kempo; you've restored my faith in both Kongo Zen and the BSKF.

tony leith
2nd August 2005, 17:27
With the greatest of respect, while I think that both Adrians have made some perfectly valid points, I think they've framed them in pretty apocalyptic terms. This reminds me a bit of Kimpatsu's tendency to erect straw men and then take a flamethrower to them..

1) While the issue of principle remains, in practice I would be very surprised if any branch master will be compelled - in the guns cocked and levelled at head sense- to make new students purchase official dogi for the next couple of years. It is a requirement that we use the new badge, and we do have a number of these to facilitate the transition period until the cheaper dogi become available.

2) at the BSKF summer seminar, the cost of the cheaper licensed dogi was estimated - by Mizuno Sensei- at 20 quid. Not dirt cheap to be sure, but most students I know wouldn't bat an eyelid at spending that on an evening's drinking (as somebody who has inspected my own bank statements from a night on the piss with befuddled amazement, this should not be construed as me taking a moral stance on the demon drink). Spending this money on a dogi may deprive them of that opportunity (for one night at least), but in the end it's a choice they can make.

3) somebody engaged in the supply of martial arts equipment has a perfectly legitimate argument to make about this policy impinging on their trade, but one does wonder whether this might not predispose somebody to be hostile to the policy irrespective of its merits/demerits. This may be completely unfair, but then again all sorts of motivations are being imputed to Hombu policy on a similar sort of basis.

Re. Indar's last post, frankly I've seen veiled threats and instructions to keep quiet if you know what's good for you from a number of people party to this debate in past discussions, and I think we can all agree that this kind of stuff doesn't do either the forum or the reputation of Shorinjikempo any favours.

Tony Leith

Tripitaka of AA
2nd August 2005, 22:48
frankly I've seen veiled threats and instructions to keep quiet if you know what's good for you from a number of people party to this debate in past discussions, and I think we can all agree that this kind of stuff doesn't do either the forum or the reputation of Shorinjikempo any favours.

Tony Leith

When the posts are blunt to the point of rudeness, show a complete lack of respect for the decisions made at Hombu and suggest that there is a deeper and more sinister reason to the recent "unifying image" changes, then I'd be inclined to believe that keeping quiet would be in the best interests of all concerned. It's fine to moan, but don't do it with a megaphone, to the House of Lords, with a klaxxon and a handful of stink-bombs... if you want to be taken seriously.

Well-written, well-argued and well-intentioned posts are always welcome, and there have been many that fit that description. Objections to the image change and dogi supply are valid topics for debate and clearly they are important to many people... or perhaps that should read "important to those that write"... I would be glad to read more of them. It is a little frustrating to have no authorised feedback from close to the source, but then, perhaps we wouldn't want to have Hombu representatives sitting around reading all these posts.

I keep coming back to the observation that Hombu is a group of traditional people doing something fairly radical (for them). Overturning their decisions, doing U-turns, in response to taunts and jibes on the internet... I just don't see it. A few quiet words and some lobbying in the right places, sounds more like the appropriate tactics for this conflict.

But what do I know.

JL.
3rd August 2005, 00:28
Gassho!

Apart from the question whether this discussion will move something or not, there seems to be a pretty broad consensus on the questions of taste and 'corporatism' regarding the recent changes.
Therefore I'd like to take a quick poll of the stands on this amongst the people posting here:
Are the recent changes
- good
- bad
- indifferent
- not nice, but not worth the trouble of challenging?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Indar
3rd August 2005, 08:59
When the posts are blunt to the point of rudeness, show a complete lack of respect for the decisions made at Hombu and suggest that there is a deeper and more sinister reason to the recent "unifying image" changes, then I'd be inclined to believe that keeping quiet would be in the best interests of all concerned. It's fine to moan, but don't do it with a megaphone, to the House of Lords, with a klaxxon and a handful of stink-bombs... if you want to be taken seriously.


One of the problems with this (or any) Internet forum is that you can only evaluate the seriousness of any post if you know the background of the person posting.

Both the Adrians posting here are BSKF branch masters of long standing. The process of running a BSKF branch involves a lot of hard work. The majority of BSKF branch masters don't make any money from teaching: in fact they are probably subsidising the branch from their own pockets. This would seem to demonstrate a deep commitment to ShorinjiKempo.

There are already channels for communication between individual branch masters, federations, and Hombu. If these channels are blocked then obviously people will look for other ways to express their views.


and your qualifications are.........?

Tripitaka of AA
3rd August 2005, 11:57
Hi Indar :)

As I think you know, my qualifications are absolutely nowhere near those which you have selected. I am a lowly scumbag quitter who trained many years ago and only reached the first or second rung of that worthy ladder (Graded and passed Nidan, but left shortly after). In terms of Shorinji Kempo training, it is nothing.

My comments are, as you say, from outside the organisation. Outside the loop. Away from the personalities and personal histories of many of the participants. I cannot presume to know if/when/how any other channels of communication have been used for relaying concerns. I am ONLY able to judge what I have seen put before me.

My comments on this and other threads regarding inappropriate language and poor tactics for negotiation are based on my understanding of the nature of organisations (I worked as a tiny cog in BT during the time it went from 250,000 employees down to less than 100,000), the nature of the average Japanese person when dealing with business decisions (articles, hearsay and being married to a Japanese woman who worked in large companies in Japan and London), and lastly the position I currently hold as "Shorinji Kempo Fan". I am a nothing. I am a nobody. But if nobody else is saying what I think needs to be said then I shall say it out loud. This, of course, is what has recently been applauded... hasn't it?

In my case, I felt that people were seriously harming their own case, through a poorly judged use of "in the pub" language, in a situation that is cunningly and seriously NOT a pub. Comments written here will still be around in months or years to come. At a time when dust and tumbleweeds have blown all this furore into a faded memory, there will still be people coming across references to "idiotic endeavour", "some greedy idiot" and the other humourous references to the new scroll.


If I have failed to read sufficiently the subtext and between-the-lines meaning behind this campaign then could someone please PM me with a STFU message. I am open to such correction and do take it on board.

I have posted many times in the past with messages of praise and respect for Kenshi who maintain their training, with particular admiration for those who have attempted the "top job" of Branch Master. It is with my tiny knowledge of the duties of a Jokyo that I see just how enormous the commitment has to be, from someone willing to take on the role of Sensei. It is obvious that these people have made sacrifices. To see them agitated and uncomfortable makes me anxious and I feel for them.

As an outsider, however, it is beginning to read like the kind of bitch-session and storm-in-a-teacup disputes that litter the history of so many other Arts. Is this how it really is? Or are your words painting a misrepresentation?

Indar
3rd August 2005, 13:33
Hi Indar :)
At a time when dust and tumbleweeds have blown all this furore into a faded memory, there will still be people coming across references to "idiotic endeavour", "some greedy idiot" and the other humourous references to the new scroll.


Speaking as someone who is (at least partially) English, the expression that comes to mind is 'if you can't take a joke then f**k you'.

The overwhelming majority of Japanese people that I have trained with over the years have had a good sense of humour; probably the one thing that holds everything together.

With regard to those people advocating (self?) censorship; I tend to agree that freedom of speech should be relative, not absolute. The two moderators on this forum have good relationships both within WSKO and with senior BSKF kenshi; perhaps we should rely on them to stop things from getting out of hand.

tony leith
3rd August 2005, 13:53
Speaking personally, I have no particular problem with anybody on this forum expressing themselves any way they see fit within the bounds of acceptable conduct (as defined by the rules). I was simply expressing the fact that I disagree with some of the conclusions being drawn.

From Indar

Speaking as someone who is (at least partially) English, the expression that comes to mind is 'if you can't take a joke then f**k you'.

Actually, Indar, I don't think it works like that in this context. In the past, I've had comments which were at last partially meant to be in jest taken in all seriousness here, with problematic consequences. This is NOT exactly the same as banter in the pub - for a start we don't have all the non verbal cures about when we're being serious and when we're not. For another, it is a bit more permanent.

Also not relevant in this context as it was pretty apparent that the comments alluded to were meant in all seriousness (and again, I have no problem with that, for what it's worth)

Tony Leith

Indar
3rd August 2005, 14:11
Tony,

Apologies for not making myself clear.
What I was trying to say was that when you start to carefully consider the implications of everything that you say you run the risk of never saying anything.

I tend to think that the Hombu staff are sophisticated enough, and have enough humour, to recognise that comments like 'some greedy idiot' are not meant to be taken literally.

CityShorinji
3rd August 2005, 14:19
While I appreciate Indar's support, I also think it is important that David is free to express his criticism as he sees fit, it is fair comment. I prefer the open playing field we have on this forum, regardless of participants' status. I'm a big boy, I can take it. I have not minced my words so far, it's true. My choice of language is a direct reflection of my anger, at times it's been all I could do to prevent myself from lapsing into the profane.

Interesting to mention BT. If WSKO was a blue-chip, I'm sure some recent decisions would have led to some board-level resignations, on grounds of failure to consult, lack of people skills, and an inability to take corrective action at an earlier stage. Making your people hopping mad isn't usually on the job description. However, despite the loss of credibility and good faith, I do still believe that hearts are in the right places at all levels in our organisation, and with a few sensible alternatives the whole debacle can indeed be consigned to history.

JL.
3rd August 2005, 14:56
Gassho!

What's BT?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

CityShorinji
3rd August 2005, 15:17
Expensive, predominantly fixed-line UK telecommunications incumbent. Formerly part of the Post Office, state owned until 1987? initial public offering on London Stock Exchange as part of then conservative government's privatisation policy. Was known as British Telecom, now shortened to BT.

Ayethankyou

tony leith
3rd August 2005, 16:14
From Mr. Simpson


While I appreciate Indar's support, I also think it is important that David is free to express his criticism as he sees fit, it is fair comment. I prefer the open playing field we have on this forum, regardless of participants' status. I'm a big boy, I can take it. I have not minced my words so far, it's true.

And I'm all for that - better to make the point you want to make as you want to to make it, in the knowledge that, as Adrian says, these comments in turn are fair game. I actually think it is pretty critically important in this forum that to some extent the normal 'pecking order' goes by the board - the perception that it doesn't is probably why we get so few posts from kyu grades. This is unfortunate, as 1)they may well have a lot to contribute and 2) if they're not in the end the future of the our organisation who will be?

BTW, I can testify that Adrian (Simpson) is in fact being quite tactful. By his standards. :D

Tony Leith

ocatford
3rd August 2005, 17:22
Gassho all,

I think it's as much a deterrent that all postings are "fair game" as the fear of saying the wrong thing and incurring the scorn of a senior grade that keeps kyu grades from posting on the forum. But that is not to say that they don't read and listen to what's being said.

I've seen some apparently junior postings get fairly heavily torn into or hijacked because of the policy of "fair game" and I feel such "even handedness" would not be tolerated within the dojo - a beginner would not be expected to effectively train with a senior grade who doesn't see the need to pull the punches, so why should it be any different in this forum?

Perhaps respecting one another's experience, or lack of, through adhering to the structures of the dojo might reduce that reticence to participate. If this means including grade and the year we started training as part of the signature then maybe it might help newbies have a little more faith that they will not break unspoken rules of etiquette.

It's all very well enjoying an open field of expression when you are confident and secure in your understanding of the subject, but such an open field seems like so much crossfire and so little cover to anybody not entirely ready to launch into full-blown howa-randori against a dan-grade with decades' experience.

OK, I'll get back in my box now, I've drifted well off thread, but then perhaps that's a good thing. Such opportunites as these to question the format of the forum are few; how many replies do you think we would get to a thread entitled "Reasons why I don't post on e-budo"? Apologies for the digression, I'll let you get back to the "verbal sparring".


Olly Catford
(Shodan, started 1999)

CityShorinji
3rd August 2005, 17:41
Sorry Olly, I'm afraid the fair game thing must apply across the board - life's like that. There's no "don't hurt me I'm only little" badges handed out in the real world.

That's not to say posts from everyone shouldn't be welcome, the fresh perspective can be the best of all. But If someone's subject knowledge is slim, they should ask, instead of sounding off from a position of weakness. That's how it works in every other walk of life, isn't it??

Ade
3rd August 2005, 19:05
Gassho

Nobody ever changed anything by doing nothing.

Nobody ever got their point across by being quiet.

And nobody ever taught a ShorinjiKempo dojo that changed the lives of those passing through it by wasting their time on sh*t like this.

Ade

You got a problem with me e-mail me we'll talk about your problem, but remember I'm a little busy starting a 2nd club, (where the kids will not be constrained into buying an over-priced version of something they can get cheaper locally...otherwise I'd be contributing to the perpetuation of a complex monopoly!)

David Dunn
4th August 2005, 10:58
Expensive, predominantly fixed-line UK telecommunications incumbent. Formerly part of the Post Office, state owned until 1987? initial public offering on London Stock Exchange as part of then conservative government's privatisation policy. Was known as British Telecom, now shortened to BT.

Ayethankyou

That's the journalist ;)

I just want to add my tu'pence ha'penny. I hope no one feels that they oughtn't to post their point of view on here, as well as counterview. Just be careful about how it reads. Unlike the pub you can at least check what you're saying, and edit it, and check it again. As for complaining, well try to organise a taikai or two and see what happens then :)

There are two positions here. Those that take a principled opposition to franchised kit per se, and those that don't but are concerned about pricing beginners out of the game. I'm in the latter camp, and I don't have a problem about WSKO making money out of it. It may appear as a little ungrateful to complain on that point, when the Japanese shorinji kenshi have been subsidising overseas branches for over twenty years, to the tune of the greater proportion of WSKO's expenditure. I agree that making a fast buck shouldn't be the goal, but it is equally silly to expect an organistion of this size to run on empty.

tony leith
4th August 2005, 12:28
From Ade


And nobody ever taught a ShorinjiKempo dojo that changed the lives of those passing through it by wasting their time on sh*t like this.

Fine, and nobody is claiming that spending some recreational time on this forum is a substitute/alternative/equivalent in value to training or teaching.

Complaining about this forum being a place where people express opinions makes about as much sense as complaining about a pub being a place where people drink (cue the usual stuff about opinions and assholes - heard it, same point applies)


You got a problem with me e-mail me we'll talk about your problem, but remember I'm a little busy starting a 2nd club, (where the kids will not be constrained into buying an over-priced version of something they can get cheaper locally...otherwise I'd be contributing to the perpetuation of a complex monopoly!)

Again, fair point, there is a reasonable principled objection to the policy Hombu is adopting on licensed dogi, and this seems an entirely reasonable exercise of branch master autonomy. It just seems to me that it is possible to criticise the policy without necessarily imputing malign/sinister motives to those putting it forward. If it is felt necessary to do that, it also seems to me that once we start questioning people's good faith there's no end to it.

My reservations about the policy are on the same pragmatic grounds as Dave's - namely the obvious one about cost as a possible deterrent to new kenshi. If Hombu were saying that the entire existing membership and all new entrant must purchase new dogi from Japan fortwith - as in right now - then I would probably also be considering my position carefully. However, I think their approach has been (somewhat) more reasonable than that.


Tony Leith

CityShorinji
4th August 2005, 13:39
The mad thing is, if Hombu had just brought out a new range of its own dogis, with embroidery, I wouldn't have hesitated to buy one, not least because I hate sewing. They could also have brought out a new badge for sale at some appropriately set profit margin for other dogis. Either way, they would make the money Dave & Tony refer to. I've never had a problem with the new symbol per se.

As for making a loss? As I've said before, WSKO needs streamlining. I don't accept that we are subsidised by Japanese dojos. It's hardly my fault WSKO is so inefficient, I don't choose how it's run. All plane tickets, administrators and heavy blue envelopes. Rationalise, please.

Indar
4th August 2005, 15:43
As for making a loss? As I've said before, WSKO needs streamlining. I don't accept that we are subsidised by Japanese dojos. It's hardly my fault WSKO is so inefficient, I don't choose how it's run. All plane tickets, administrators and heavy blue envelopes. Rationalise, please.

I guess that the only way to really answer this would be for WSKO to show their accounts. Any organisation that claims to be non-profit making really needs to show transparency in this area in order to be taken seriously.

Steve Williams
4th August 2005, 21:24
I,ve pretty much said what I feel about this thread.....
But I just cannot resist an annoying/friendly/off-topic answer to the "2 Ades"....

Ade 1:

by Adrian Foster-StarrAnd nobody ever taught a ShorinjiKempo dojo that changed the lives of those passing through it by wasting their time on sh*t like this
Who started this whole thread, and who keeps putting annoying comments to this and other threads........ (clue-its not me) ;) (see that smilie Ade, that means its to be taken as a joke).

Ade 2:

by Adrian SimpsonI've never had a problem with the new symbol per se
Can I direct you to many of your comments in this thread http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30388&page=1&pp=15 such comments as
Just as bad as saluting a corporate badge............Scary, scary stuff. ;) smilie for you too mate......

Lets all just get a little perspective on the whole thing eh.......

As was said before, we are all quite good at "self-moderating" so lets see some of it please. Nothing wrong with freedom of speech, just consider the implications of what you may write when you cannot see the other person, you do not have the "body language clues" which can change a certain comment from a declaration of war into a joke.... or vice-versa......
People who know me (in an offline capacity) will know that I take things way too easily, but those who don't know me may think something else...... consider that a large number of the people who read what you write here do not have a clue what your personality is beyond what they read..... what you mean as a joke or a gentle aside may not be taken as such.

CityShorinji
4th August 2005, 23:02
Nice try Steve, but you've got that one wrong. There is no inconsitency in what I have said whatsoever. My problem is with the act of performing gassho rei to the new symbol, not (as I attempted to make clear) with the new symbol itself. Hence my use of the term per se.

I suggest you review my previous posts in greater detail. Not only will this provide a context for this distinction, it will also demonstrate that my argument is coherent.

CityShorinji
4th August 2005, 23:10
Ditto for the quality of the new scroll and for Hombu's dreadful policy of forcing change without proper research or consultation.

In fact I would encourage everyone to review my earlier posts, as Steve suggests, just so you can all enjoy them for a second time. Especially no.7.

CityShorinji
4th August 2005, 23:12
Of course I'm not annoyed.

Tripitaka of AA
4th August 2005, 23:47
My mother was chatting to a Greek waiter one evening. He was dressed up for a night on the town and she decided to compliment him on his tie. She said "Wow, that tie is outrageous!"... and though he seemed to look a little nonplussed she thought he would be able to get the message from all the other cues (visual, tone of voice, expression, etc.). Some time later, the man returned from having checked his Greek-English dictionary; "I'm so sorry. I did not mean to offend you, please forgive me".

After some confusion and finally a look at the dictionary, it appeared that the term "Outrageous" had been defined as "an affront to God".

I've been married for 18 years to someone for whom English is a second language (and she finds it bloody hard work at times). The times I've offended and annoyed unintentionally are too numerous to mention. It happens to me on E-Budo amongst people who share many of the same background references.

JL.
5th August 2005, 00:33
Gassho!

Alas, us stupid foreigners have to suffer from our defficient language skills here quite a bit, too. *deepest sigh*
Especially with misspelled words which are obviously hard to find in a dictionary.

Kesshu,
______ Jan. :( :confused:

CityShorinji
5th August 2005, 10:16
Just one language request Jan - please don't use a capital letter on the word You. Otherwise it sounds like you are talking about God. NB this is especially important in posts to the other Adrian :)

JL.
5th August 2005, 11:03
Gassho Adrian Simpson-sensei!

Thanks for the information. So there is another affront to god here after all! ;-)
The thing with the "You" is, that in German every direct written address is capitalized for politeness, and since in English the word "I" is always capitalized it just sounds incredibly selfish to me to not do so to other people. It's just a personal thing... I suppose until I find a better solution I'll just try to avoid addressing anyone personally.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Tripitaka of AA
5th August 2005, 12:03
Jan, I regularly murder the English language. When I see the fluent contributions from non-English members I am ashamed of myself.

Trying to deal with basic grammar rules is difficult enough. Dealing with slang, errors and... humour... must be particularly difficult.

Is everybody else missing the smileys? I think they can be very helpful, especialy when there is a range of them. I think the Forum Webmaster, John Lindsey ran out of time to bring them back when he restored E-Budo to service.

JL.
5th August 2005, 13:47
Gassho David-san!

Yep, slang and all that often give me trouble. But that can also be fun, actually, and it's a great way of learning more about the language!
The smilies are there, though not all of them work properly in my browser.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Indar
5th August 2005, 17:29
Gassho
I'm a little busy starting a 2nd club, (where the kids will not be constrained into buying an over-priced version of something they can get cheaper locally...otherwise I'd be contributing to the perpetuation of a complex monopoly!)

It's only when you start to teach a kids class that you begin to appreciate the real meaning of riki ai fu ni
some people can do it......some can't........you might say that it's what separates the men from the boys...............or the women from the girls as Brixton kids class is currently being taught by a woman (thank you Sue)

well done, and good luck

Ade
6th August 2005, 04:41
I,ve pretty much said what I feel about this thread.....
But I just cannot resist an annoying/friendly/off-topic answer to the "2 Ades"....Who started this whole thread, and who keeps putting annoying comments to this and other threads........ (clue-its not me) ;) (see that smilie Ade, that means its to be taken as a joke).

I take this entire thing as a joke Steve, and I take the idea of fleecing my kenshi as the biggest one I've ever seen anyone attempt!

Anders Pettersson
7th August 2005, 11:43
There is supposed to be a channel for communication between the BM's and Hombu, which is the WSKO council.
Each federation should have a council representative who consults the BM's in that federation and then attends meetings at Hombu to put forward their views.
The replies to those comments should then be communciated back to the BM's.
Gassho.

Just a small correction.
Each national federation does not have a representative in the WSKO Council.

At the WSKO General Meeting each country can have one representative (Daigi-in), but the Council consists (according to WSKO Statutes) of no more than 10 members (today we are 8 members if I remember correctly).

These members are from different "regions". Europe today have three councilers (Hyougi-in) (one from Sweden, one from Italy and one from UK), North America two (today one from Canada and one from US).


/Anders

Anders Pettersson
7th August 2005, 11:54
I guess that the only way to really answer this would be for WSKO to show their accounts. Any organisation that claims to be non-profit making really needs to show transparency in this area in order to be taken seriously.
WSKO accounts are available.

I have seen (what I believe is) the accounts for Zaidan Hojin Shorinjikempo Renmei published on the Hombu homepage. Se here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/renmei/ir/2004syushiyosan.pdf)

As for WSKO accounts they are presented at the General Meeting.

/Anders

Anders Pettersson
7th August 2005, 12:09
Concerning the new dogi.

My opinion on this is that Hombu should allow us to continue to use Muna-sho (breast badges), but they should make nicer embroidered muna-sho instead of the ones we now have got.

There will be many people that are going to take up this issue (and many others) at the upcoming WSKO General Meeting and WSKO Council Meeting.

If you have ideas on how things should be (not just say: "this is bad", but rather: "this is not good this is how I think we should do") write it down and give it to your Shibu-cho and/or talk to your countries Daigi-in (Country representative) or a WSKO Counciler. And I think that they can consider to bring it up at the meetings in October.

As for the fincial aspect of the new dogi I don't think that this change are going to have any impact on the income for Hombu.
The previous Shorinjikempo dogi (from Isami, Ozaki, Maekawa, Mitsuboshi, etc.) all had a Shorinjikempo mark on them (tate manji with each company name under it). For this these companies paid a certain percentage to Hombu.
The new way with Synapse as the only producer (and Ozaki and Maekawa as distributors) I don't think that it will bring any more money to Hombu.

The big issue for me is the problem (and somewhat also the cost) for new members to get a new dogi.
It will take too long time and involve a lot of extra costs (tax, custom fees, etc.)

For countries that are pooorer than us in US and Europe, the possibility to continue to use muna-sho is essential (in my opinion). For some of the kenshi in poorer countries it is a problem to even get a dogi. Many kenshi have given their old used dogi to kenshi in countries like this, and that is something that we should be able to coninue with.

/Anders

JL.
7th August 2005, 15:16
Gassho!

Are there some means of distribution for old Dogis to poorer countries or are they just send down from one Kenshi to another via personal contact?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Anders Pettersson
7th August 2005, 19:35
Are there some means of distribution for old Dogis to poorer countries or are they just send down from one Kenshi to another via personal contact?
Gassho

There are no regular ways of sending used dogi to poorer countries. The ones I have heard about have been some occaisions when some instructor have been on his way to some country and before that asking for people to give, etc.

The last I kow about was on initiative by Hagata-sensei gathering used dogi for kenshi in Chile. Kenshi from different parts in Nort America brought their used dogi to a Koshukai in San Fransisco and Hagata-sensei then aranged for them to be sent on to Chile (one of Hagata-sensei's former students have open a branch there).
See here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/report/52.html).

/Anders

JL.
8th August 2005, 11:33
Gassho!

Maybe that would be a good project for the future.
Our club has itself 'inherited' quite a few Dogis from Japanese Kenshi.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Gary Dolce
19th August 2005, 16:33
I'd like to get back to Ade's original comment about sizing of the new dogi. I ordered 1 dogi in each adult size so I could figure out what sizes were appropriate for Kenshi in my Branch. My conslusion is that they are cut for people with long, broad torsos and short limbs. As a result, the sleeves and legs are short on most of the Kenshi who have tried them on. That's OK with me - I like having lots of exposed arm for juho and shorter sleeves and legs are more comfortable in the summer. But for most of us they won't meet the recent requirements that Hombu has specified for sleeve and pants length without special tailoring. If you wear a size that has the right sleeve and pants length, you feel like you are wearing a tent.

This isn't necessarily a new problem - in the past some Shorinji Kempo dogi fit better than others. But in the past if one brand didn't fit well, you could always try another. We don't seem to have that option anymore.

colin linz
19th August 2005, 22:41
I'd like to get back to Ade's original comment about sizing of the new dogi. I ordered 1 dogi in each adult size so I could figure out what sizes were appropriate for Kenshi in my Branch. My conslusion is that they are cut for people with long, broad torsos and short limbs. As a result, the sleeves and legs are short on most of the Kenshi who have tried them on. That's OK with me - I like having lots of exposed arm for juho and shorter sleeves and legs are more comfortable in the summer. But for most of us they won't meet the recent requirements that Hombu has specified for sleeve and pants length without special tailoring. If you wear a size that has the right sleeve and pants length, you feel like you are wearing a tent.

This isn't necessarily a new problem - in the past some Shorinji Kempo dogi fit better than others. But in the past if one brand didn't fit well, you could always try another. We don't seem to have that option anymore.

My last two Isami dogi’s were of this fit. Even though they are the regular size, the sleeves and legs are very short and the waist is very large. I sometimes have trouble drawing the strings in enough, despite my 92cm waist. The best fitting ones I have tried were the Maekawa dogi’s.

I should have my new dogi next week, hopefully it will fit. One of my students received his a couple of weeks ago and it fitted well. He is large framed though.

Ewok
20th August 2005, 10:16
Rowwr! Got a little bit heated at the start...

The thing with E-budo is that most of its members are well informed, well connected, long standing and high ranked SK practicioners. I would be very interested to see what the normal lowly kyuu ranked kenshi would think of the changes.

Maybe some short surveys at the end of the next practice is in order? :P

Omicron
21st August 2005, 10:00
Speaking as a lowly kyuu ranked kenshi, I don't really have too much to say about the new dogi. I like the new symbol, and I don't see the cost as being a very big discouraging factor. My old dogi doesn't fit me all that well either, so I again don't have much of a problem with the new ones, though I'm sure with a bit of creativity I'll be able to get one to fit me.

And it's just clothing, after all.

Tripitaka of AA
21st August 2005, 22:56
In the old days of Judo, the folks wore yukata, or just underwear.

Anyone want to make fun of Bruce in his Yip Man style training wear?

Tripitaka of AA
22nd August 2005, 00:24
Then again, people will keep trying to come up with the perfect outfit... Fancy yourselves in one of these?