Transmission and Succession in the Classical Arts [Archive]

22nd June 2000, 17:45

Dan,

As inferred by John Lindsey the only non-Japanese I am familiar with to formally receive transmission of a classical ryu would be Don Angier in Long Beach, Ca.

Don Angier's position as the legitament inheritor of Yanagi ryu is acknowledged by individuals including Stan Pranin, Kondo Kaysuyuki, Okamoto Saigo and the late Takamura Yukiyoshi. Kondo Katsuyuki it should be mentioned was even a student of Yoshida Kotaro and received some training in Yanagi ryu. He mentioned this personally to me on a visit to his home in 1994. Takamura Yukiyoshi received a hitherto unknown photograph of his own grandfather, Ohbata Shigeta from Don Angier around 1993. In this photograph with Ohbata Sensei appears several martial arts notables including Sokaku Takeda and Yoshida Kotaro. I believe a copy of this rare photograph is now in the archives of Stan Pranin who after careful examination is convinced of its authenticty.

Endorsements of this sort from authorative sources and high level Japanese instructors as well as Don's cosiderable physical and technical evidence go a long way in eliminating any question of his position as headmaster. As far as I know no other individual has undergone the scrutiny that Don has concerning this subject and not been found wanting. He has always been quite open about the facts of the ryus transmission and the legitament questions that have arisen surrounding it.

Some specifics of Yanagi ryu Aiki Bugei & Don Angiers relationship with Yoshida Kenji are the subject of an upcoming article appearing in Aikido Journal.

Toby Threadgill

Luke Short

22nd June 2000, 23:59

Is it possable for a Non-Japanese to be the soke of a Japanese Koryu tradition?

I don't know anything about Mr. Angier on a personal level, and I don't have anything against him, but I do want to concider the relationship between the various Ryu-ha Soke and Shihan. Is Mr.Angier's position as Soke accepted and respected by the Soke and Shihan of the Ryu-ha in Japan? Is it important? I think it is.

I don't know the answer to this though, and I doubt if the Soke here in Japan have even heard of Mr. Angier (and perhaps to them it isn't even important), but I do know as far as the ryu-ha in Japan are concerned, since there are so few, they all know each other and in a lot of Ryu-ha, when a system passes hands, everyone here knows about it.

Does Mr.Angier represent a shift in Koryu from the domain of Japan to America? A foot in the door... And how many people feel, that a system residing outside of Japan has/would have to change? I know others have asked 'What is a Koryu?' but in the case of Mr.Angier is it still "Koryu" as the Japanese define it?

My own opinion is that once the Japanese culture has been removed from the school, it can no longer be "Koryu" in the sence, a great part of what Koryu means to me. I am NOT implying that the school is anyless valuable, or not worth doing. I only believe that it is no longer a "Japanese Koryu".Still Japanese budo, but not Koryu. No foriegner is going to have the Japanese culture as thier dominate culture, even if they lived here 10 or 20 years.To my way of thinking and experience have been living in Japan for the better part of ten years (I admit this makes me baised- not a snob though!) without the Japanese culture, it can't be a koryu school. Be it Tea, Flowers, or Swords. Koryu and Japanese culture cannot be seperated!

I am interested to see what others think about this.Especially those who have lived in and trained in Japan, and those who have never lived here.

RESPECTFULLY,

Luke

John Lindsey

23rd June 2000, 04:41

Luke,

I don't think there is any other Japanese soke or shihan for the specific ryuha that Don has.

Luke Short

23rd June 2000, 08:53

Well, of course Don's teacher was "Japanese", though concidering how much of his life he spent out of Japan, it might be safe to say that his dominate culture is not Japanese. He represents a unique case perhaps, and I think his views aren't shared by everyone.

I believe that although his line is not in Japan any longer, there are other lines of this school still around.

The people that Mr. Threadgill mention, such as Stan Pranin (not a soke of anything) and Mr. Kondo (one can present a case for Daitoryu not being a Koryu in the strictest sense) and Okamoto are not cases of Koryu Soke achnowledging Don as a soke.

Kondo is a member of the Shinkou Kai and the Koukai, but Don, Pranin and Okamoto are not. I wonder if his credentials would be rocognized by these two groups.

Mr. Threadgills argument that Don's physical and technical skills are excelent and therefore his position as soke is evident doesn't seem right to me. Mr. Kato, the soke of the Tatsumiryu no longer has the use of his voice, and Mr. Hoshi, soke of the Yagyu Shinganryu spent the entire time his ryuha was demonstrating at the Meiji demo last Nov. sitting in a chair directing his students because he is getting along in years. Does these limitations mean that these two people are not fit to be soke of thier schools any longer?

Further, what high level Japanese instructors is he talking about? Okamoto and Pranin are not Koryu people? Are the people Toby is thinking of Koryu soke or shihan? Maybe he could supply some names or resouces where I can read that they public acknowledge Don as Soke.

Again, I am not trying to attack Don's position as soke, nor how he inherited it. I hope no one takes it that way. I am only asking for specifics.

What is a "soke" in the US might not be a "soke" by the same deffintion in Japan. I think, if Koryu is going stay Koryu, it has to stay as purely culturally Japanese as possible! It is a Japanese thing let's leave as pure as possible, if it isn't Japanese any more, why even bother to use the Japanese words for it? How can we just pick and choose what elements of the Japanese culture to keep or throw away, and how could it be possable judge thier value as good or bad? Part of training in Koryu is allowing one's personality to be subsumed by the ryu, and one must be open to the change.

23rd June 2000, 15:23

Luke,

You need to carefully read my post because your putting words and positions in my mouth that I clearly did not state and you are making assumptions that are incorrect.

You stated:

"I believe that although his line is not in Japan any longer, there are other lines of this school still around."

This assumption is incorrect. Don is unaware of any surviving Yoshida ha Shidare Yanagi ryu dojo in Japan. There are several schools that use the name "Yanagi ryu" but they are not lineal descendents of the Yanagi ryu that Don Angier inherited. Just as there are at least three unrelated Yoshin ryu traditions surviving in Japan there are also unrelated Yanagi ryu traditions. The ryu Don inherited is the family style of the Yoshida Clan from Kyushu. This clan was historicly associated with the losing side during the Satsuma rebellion. Yoshida Kotaro was the partriarch (soke) of the family and passed the art to his son Kenji. Kenji, before his death, adopted Don as a yoshi because he had no male heir to pass the art to.

Next you stated:

The people that Mr. Threadgill mention, such as Stan Pranin (not a soke of anything) and Mr. Kondo (one can present a case for Daitoryu not being a Koryu in the strictest sense) and Okamoto are not cases of Koryu Soke achnowledging Don as a soke.

I don't believe I ever said any of these individuals were soke of koryu? Did I?

What I stated was:

"Endorsements of this sort from authorative sources and high level Japanese instructors as well as Don's cosiderable physical and technical evidence go a long way in eliminating any question of his position as headmaster. (of Yanagi ryu)"

I think it is considerable that Katsuyuki Kondo recognizes Don in this position as he was a direct student of the previous headmaster, Yoshida Kotaro. I heard this with my own ears during a visit to Kondo's home. If you think that is unimportant, that is your perogative. If you do not find that considerable I see no need to convince you otherwise.

I also think it is considerable that Stan Pranin, the most authorative source of accurate historical documentation on the aiki arts recognizes Don in this postition as well. Historians opinions in matters like this are to me every bit as important ( if not more so ) than other martial artists, especially from unrelated traditions. Petty jealousies and internal politics are less likely to color the opinion of a historian. A historian bases his postition on documentable facts. I honestly find it amusing and enlightening that you so quickly dismiss a historian as well respected as Stan Pranin here. In my opinion it is most damaging to your apparent logic.

You next stated:

"Mr. Kato, the soke of the Tatsumiryu no longer has the use of his voice, and Mr. Hoshi, soke of the Yagyu Shinganryu spent the entire time his ryuha was demonstrating at the Meiji demo last Nov. sitting in a chair directing his students because he is getting along in years. Does these limitations mean that these two people are not fit to be soke of thier schools any longer?"

I done believe so. But your argument here is totally unrelated to my point. Please again read my post carefully.

Lets assume for a moment that these gentlemen were under scrutiny and there was question concerning their claims as headmasters. Lets also assume that they were in good physical condition. Now lets assume they were mediocre technicians and crummy teachers on a good day. Would that damage their claim as being legitament headmasters. It might very well!

Lastly you stated:

" I think, if Koryu is going stay Koryu, it has to stay as purely culturally Japanese as possible!"

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. (I assume you've read the "koryu snobs" thread here on e-budo) I however had a Japanese Sensei who was raised in the pre ww2 era of Japan and then later lived for many years in the west. He would disagree with you in the most strident of terms. And BTW, he met Don, acknowledged Don's position and in fact considered Don a "meijin". In his later years he and Don became good friends. Also, as easily dismissed an expert as you apparently find Stan Pranin, he considers Don, and I quote here: "one of the finest martial artists I have ever met"

The original question was:

"I was wondering if there has ever been a case in which the history and tradition of a ryu has ever been passed on to a non-Japanese headmaster or someone residing outside of Japan."

I believe in my original post I simply answered that question to the best of my ability. I dont want to get into any further pissing contests over what a "koryu" is. Those emminently qualified to comment on that have already posted and adequately covered that debate elsewhere.

Sincerely,

Toby Threadgill
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-23-2000 at 01:25 PM]

Walker

23rd June 2000, 16:37

The new Aikido Journal has been published with an article about Mr. Angier so you can all judge for yourself. I hate the agonizing wait for my copy :(

Think about this - I understand that Mr. Angier spent years saying he was practicing aikijujutsu and was poopooed by many if not all of the aiki practitioners in the US. This was before Stanly “rediscovered” Daito Ryu. Aikijujutsu was a myth or at best a dead art. Heck, if you asked an Aikidoka in the US in those days Aikido was the art of Tohei Sensei inspired by some shadowy O’Sensei guy (JUST KIDDING YOU GUYS!!! I know how y’all can fly off the handle.)

So Mr. Angier definitely started from zero in terms of acceptance. If you think about it, if there hadn’t been cross pollinating between the Yoshida family art and S. Takeda, Mr. Angier might still be ignored. Stan certainly wouldn’t have cared and wouldn’t have seen evidence of the art in Japan in the past. It would have been one family art of many (many that slip quietly into history all the time without a peep) with only some scrolls and a fairy tale story of how a young American boy became Japanese and learned a martial art.

This isn’t to say we arent right to be sceptical of people’s claims. At times I shudder to think of the effect the veracity of Mr. Angiers story could have. It does not mean that we should believe any joe with a fairy story. What if Colin H. had showed up out of the blue saying he had studied an art that uses swords way longer than normal. Ha! Ha! Ha! Mr. Colin, yeah sure - big *ss sword (back away slooooly, show no fear.....)

I see a reason for arts to remain with the Japanese families that have sheltered them thus far, but it is not an iron clad rule. What if there is no Japanese to take over or that person is unworthy? It is up to the headmaster and the art‘s tradition who becomes the next leader and if that person is a blue green bipedal life form from under the sea then that’s that. One would hope that It Sensei is trained properly and has the knowledge needed for the job and I would hope that the public at large would speak out if It got out of control and started putting on airs or molted into Godzilla and started brainsucking his students and passers by, but It would be Soke. :eek:

[Edited by Walker on 06-23-2000 at 09:12 AM]

Richard Elias

23rd June 2000, 21:07

Hi Toby,
I just caught this thread or I would have chimed in sooner, but, as usual you've done a fine job and I really have not much to add.
Although...
In regards to Don's teacher Yoshida Kenji, he spent most of his life in Japan raised as samurai. By the time Don met him in 1948 Kenji was already in his 50's. He had only left Japan shortly before their involvment in the war. The Japanese culture was very much a part of his life. He still wore kimono around the house, and even required Don to learn how to make them. No Japanese clothing was available then, so they took apart the ones Kenji had and recreated them. Don was also made to learn Japanese etiquette in all of it's forms. I believe even on his first visit to Japan he recieved compliments on his manner and etiquette observed. They were suprised that he knew the things he did, as no one not Japanese should. It had also been commented that his art(judging from it's content) was very old.

As Toby stated, Don was adopted in Japanese manner and given a Japanese name. Those who do know him in Japan refer to him by this name by their own choosing. As far as the Soke title is concerned, it was given to Don by Kenji (who was actually Japanese), he did not bestow it upon himself. He even has the family Hon-ko. And this has been since the 1950's when most everyone in the U.S. didn't know what the term means (most, even those who use it, still don't) He uses the term sparingly, usually only in correspondence and as an introduction at seminars. We, his students, do not refer to him by this as it is inappropriate. It's either Sensei or Don. I believe, Threadgill-Sensei, that Takamura-Sensei even refferd to Don as Hakujin Samurai, and treated him as equal. Kondo, I was told, went to great lengths to admonish Don that it is his responsibility to Kenji, Kotaro and the Yoshida clan that he see's to it the art is passed-on.

So, Luke, say what you will, believe what you will. It doesn't really matter. If you don't think it's Koryu or you don't believe it's real, fine. All the better for us.
We know what we have.

"If you only knew the power of the Dark side"

23rd June 2000, 21:50

Hey Rich,

Good post. Something you said sparked a funny memory. When Don and I were in Japan last time, Nobiyuki Tai took us to visit a gentleman near Mito that had an incredible collection of arms, swords, armor and various matial arts related objects. This guys collection was absolutely stunning. Interestingly, he sort of quizzed Don on what some of these items were. I guess it was a sort of "stump the gaijin" game before he explained what the items actually were. The guy was just incredulous when Don started explaining what they were and how they were used. Later that evening Don even showed him an intricate hojo tie used to secure a type of arrow quiver to a yoroi. After that the guy started bringing out his entire collection of blades. Don demonstrated the proper kata for inspecting a sword, explaining to me every why and whatfor. The gentleman told me he had never seen a foreigner with such detailed knowledge of Japanese martial implements. Nobiyuki translated to me this gentlemans admonishment " Young man you watch and listen to your teacher. His knowledge of these things is dying out. He asked several times what Don's sensei's name was. He just kept scratched his head and nodding with a big smile on his face while Don explained.

It seems this guy also collected big American cars from before WW2. He had a whole garage full of these beauties. He found it very amusing that we did not know much about old Duesenbergs, Cords, Packards or Cadillacs, but did know about Japanese weapons and associated objects.

On the ride back to Miles Kesslers place in Iwama, Nobiyuki Tai laughed himself silly. He said "you two guys were priceless. He must have thought you were ghosts or something." I never really got the joke but the evening was a lot of fun.

Toby Threadgill

[Edited by Toby Threadgill on 06-23-2000 at 04:54 PM]

Richard Elias

24th June 2000, 02:09

Thank you Threadgill Sensei, I'm glad you approved of my post.

I thought I would also add this.

"I was wondering if there has ever been a case in which the history and tradition of a ryu has ever been passed on to a non-japanses headmaster or someone residing outside of Japan. Also, if so where there any special issues surrounding that decision?."

This is how this tread started.
There is no mention or reference to Koryu in particular.
Though I realize this is the Koryu forum, it's also about the history and trditions of the Koryu. Whether you believe an art is Koryu or not is on another (actually several other) thread.

In regards to Don's situation, his teacher Kenji had no children and no other students. He was in the U.S. not in Japan when he died. Due to familial conflicts I believe he felt he couldn't go home. If he had not passed the art on to Don, the art would have died. It was his obligation to his family and the art to see to it that it was passed on to a worthy successer. I don't think he would have bothered to pass the art on to someone outside of the family, let alone an American right after WW2, if he didn't think him worthy.

Additionally, I ask this;

If an art is passed on completely, with all of it's customs and traditions intact, and the inheritor continues a strict uncomprimizing adherence to the traditions of the art. Does that diminish the art, as a Koryu, just because it was passed on to a non-Japanese?
If the art itself hase not changed?

The man is only a representative of the traditions of the art. Are we to judge the arts by their content or the ethinicity of the caretaker.

From what I understand of the interests of the modern Japanese people, other arts in the future may have to be passed on to non-Japanese, for the survival of the art.

But, maybe I just don't understand. I'm just a martial artist.

MarkF

24th June 2000, 09:48

I am skeptical of just about everything which makes claims and are easily questioned. Everyone here knows that, especially Toby. We have been disagreeing in an amiable way for, well, a while, and he even emailed me to keep it up as he will do the same. I respect a person who can do that, still appreciate someone, even if there are many differences.

Firstly, Daito ryu aikijujutsu a koryu? Hardly. It is gendai, not because of the way it is done, but because of timing, that is all. Stan Pranin is a good storyteller.;) But if I were to pick, say, two people who make fanciful claims and I had to believe these two, then Don Angier and Meik Skoss are the two. They may have little to do in this debate, but I don't see it as a debate. As cynical as I am, these two have become what others say, and I would have a hard time convincing others of my ilk. But there are exceptions to every rule and these guys are it. Toby has been more than honest about what he does and how he feels, even to his own detriment in these threads, but, well, I have since educated myself to at least be as open as anyone who still believes judo to be a complete budo art, and not just a sport. Don Angier has accomplished what the charlatans only dream of while deceiving people. I may have my doubts as to daito ryu's claims of proprietary aiki, but I have seen and read enough to know. Whatever Mr. Angier's claims are, I sincerely doubt he would need even to speak of them. That is what kind of people of whom I speak.

As far as a "license of transmission," as far as I am concerned, I wish one of these guys would come out and take a look at my 86 Mercury, but as for honesty in advertising be it purposeful or not, the two mentioned above have easily dismissed any doubt I have of their abilities and honesty. If a koryu practitioner, such as Meik, who lives the life of a Japanese, can also play judo and have a good time doing it, hey, who am I to doubt them? I have also personally lived in another culture not of my own (not Japanese) and have been mistaken many times for being what I am not, but at the time, I sure felt like I was, so with that experience in mind, why is it so hard to believe Don Angier is anything but as he is described here? Is he Japanese? Well, possibly to a blind person he is. Or on the phone, not knowing what he looks like may also tell a different story. But my own experiences notwithstanding, I have absolutely no problem believing that someone who is not of a culture originally, who may appear as any other gaijin to the uninitiated, who has so immersed himself into a culture and language, how in the world should I think anything else? In other words, if it can happen to me, and it has, it can happen to anyone, believe me. I do have an abiding interest in the aiki arts, but only as it can be applied to what I do. I do not have the time left to start anew. Mssers. Angier and Skoss are as Japanese to me as any other Japanese. Just because photos show otherwise, does not mean a picture does not, in fact, lie.

Sincerely,

Joanne Miller

24th June 2000, 14:09

Originally posted by MysticMan
On a slightly different topic. Does the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai play any role in the process of succession?

Although these 2 associations are much respected I am told that sometimes these 2 association of Kobudo sometimes, try to "help out" (putting this politely so as to speak :) )in individual ryuha affairs when it's really the ryuha's personal internal matter.

How/Who/When the previous headmaster/representive wish to pass down his ryugi no matter how "unconvectional" or "hard to swallow" by the public is entirely up to her/his wishes and does not need "approval" from outside "advice". The head master reserves total rights regardless if it's the "right" or "wrong" way to public opinion.That's my "round-about-way" opinion with regards to the threads above this :)

That's why there are some ryugi which decline to being to be a member of them. If a ryuha is not a member it doesn't neccessary mean that they are not recognized.I feel there's a difference between not being a member of these 2 groups because the ryugi representive declines to join and not being a member because of being refused membership after an "application". In addition politics does play a part as well..

To go a bit off topic there are couple of old authentic styles which are not members of these 2 groups.I affectionately call them "hidden fringe group" ryugi and I tend to keep a lookout for them ;)

Cheers,

[Edited by Joanne Miller on 06-24-2000 at 10:35 PM]

Brently Keen

24th June 2000, 16:20

I have to agree with Joanne here. Not all koryu have chosen to join or are interested in joining these two fine organizations. It is up to the individual headmaster whether or not they want to be associated with other koryu or remain independent. One thing that seems to be for sure in this whole debate is there are exceptions to nearly every rule.

Brently Keen

ghp

26th June 2000, 00:11

Joanne,

Good post about the Shinkokai. Toyama Ryu is a member of that organization although it is a gendai budo....I've performed enbu during one of its Bunka no Hi Hono Enbu at Meiji Jingu.

...Which is where I met Meik Skoss, enbu-ing the Toda-ha Buko-Ryu Naginatajutsu. MarkF, I have no doubts of his bona fides.

How does that fit? :)

Regards,
Guy

MarkF

26th June 2000, 12:45

Sounds fine with me, Guy, and I thought I had made the point, but that just about sums it up. The fit is, well, tight, but I can live with it. I have only seen Meik on TV, and as we all know television does not lie!;)

pequot

27th June 2000, 00:28

Originally posted by MarkF

Mssers. Angier and Skoss are as Japanese to me as any other Japanese. Just because photos show otherwise, does not mean a picture does not, in fact, lie.

I can't understand what you mean by this statement. I am pretty sure Mr. Skoss would rather be known as "who he is" rather than as a "Japanese".

What do you mean by "Japanese"? Japanese Americans living in the United States are not Japanese in a cultural sense, Thier dominate culture being the American culture (for those Japanese Americans who were born in the US).Truely bi-cultural people are rare to find,(being bi-lingual does not make one bi-cultural!)

No matter how long Mr. Skoss (I don't know anything about how long Mr. Angier did or did not live in Japan, but the same in his case) he will NEVER be Japanese in the sense that Japanese are Japanese.And I think Mr. Skoss would be the first to acknowledge that he will never have the same degree of cultural understanding that a Japanese person has of the Japanese culture.

Do you think Mr. Skoss wants to be the next soke of the Toda-ha Bukoryu, or perhaps he feels that is something that should remain in the hands of a Japanese person.

Being able to swing a naginata and sword, and jo around with a high level of skill does not translate into being "Japanese". Maybe Mr, Skoss would be able to speak for himself, about how Japanese he thinks he is and how he feels about this issue.Considering the amount of time he has lived in Japan, he would be in a good position to offer a very informed opinion.

Mr. Skoss?

George Ledyard

27th June 2000, 01:53

It is my understanding that from a technical standpoint the senior person in the style is Ellis Amdur Sensei in Seattle. I had the good fortune to be there, as was Meik Skoss, when Nita sensei came from Japan to give him his certification. Amdur Sensei said that for precisely the reasons that are being discussed it was felt that it was not appropriate to have a non-Japanese and non-resident (in Japan) be the soke of the style so there is a Japanese gentleman who is the official Soke. But it is my understanding that on matters relating to technique, Nita Sensei, the retired headmistress of the school, considered Amdur Sensei to be the court of last resolve so to speak. If any of this is inaccurate please feel free to correct me, I was jsut a beginner student and there may have been aspects that i didn't understand.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 06-26-2000 at 08:55 PM]

MarkF

27th June 2000, 07:51

Mr. Yellowhawk,
First, welcome to e-budo, and thanks for anwering my post, but I think you are way over-analyzing what I said. This was nothing more than a generalization, but of the two people who have become immersed in a culture to a point of belonging, I believe these two are them. I don't know either of them personally, but Mr. Skoss seems to fit the general picture of any koryu practitioner who is not Japanese. Of course they are not actually Japanese and this is where is bogs down. However, I did think that most would understand what I meant, and frankly, it does not matter a whole lot what I think or if these two gentlemen really are Japanese, English, American, or Texan. They know who they are, and that is what is important. It also went to another poster who said Mr. Skoss was playing judo and having fun. Now, possibly all Japanese people you know do not have fun doing anything, but those who I know can have a great time, be it here, there, or anywhere.

I will not get into a breakdown of genes, appearances, and the like, but I only meant, that as far as I know, these two, today, have accomplished much and have invested the time to be as close as they want to be. Of course being bi-lingual doesn't make one anything but bilingual, but in doing so, doors are opened and whole new worlds can be experienced, my experiences aside. I was only, and this was my point, was giving credit where I believe credit is due. Was it so difficult to understand that you took my words at face value, or are you reading something into them of which I am not aware? It was only a compliment to them, and I did not expect it to be taken so literally. If that was your understanding, I apologize.

pequot

27th June 2000, 08:28

Mark,

I didn't mean to make it sound that personal. I understood what you meant. But thought it was a good opportunity to point out that words have a certain weight to them.

In the case of Mr. Skoss, he has forgotten more about budo and Japanese culture than I will probably ever learn.I don't know him personally so I don't really know how he really feels. I was trying to be rhetorical when I wrote "Mr. Skoss?"

I know some non-Japanese who think they are Japanese. Maybe I don't have to mention names here, many know who I am talking about. To me it seems sad not to have pride in one's own culture, even if one lives most of their life in another culture.

There seems to be a lot going on here at E-budo about "Japan" and "Japan-ness" and how that relates to Japanese Martial Arts.

I meant onely to point out an issue of semantics. I confess to being a little sensitive to cultural/race issues and identity.

Peace.

MarkF

27th June 2000, 09:25

Same here, Mike. I have those tendencies as well so I hope everything is OK. It was just a point and nothing more so let's for get it. I get somewhat high and mighty when someone explains me to myself:D

Kolschey

27th June 2000, 12:43

Mr Yellowhawk,
Just wanted to say hello! My family is from the South Kingston area of Rhode Island, so having you post is like hearing a voice from back home. Welcome to E-budo!
Several people have brought up an interesting point about culture. One of my observations from the strange world of a graduate MFA program ( From which I just graduated this Spring :) ) is that people who have a strong cultural background from which they come tend to have stronger work.
I believe that this is because they have a sense of their own identity which serves to shape the skills and experiences of their life. Many suburban American kids do not have this, and I have often wondered why. Perhaps it is the emphasis on the nuclear family, which is now becoming the single parent family. I also think that television tends to fill the unconcious with a lot of empty filler, the equivalent of marshmallow fluff. I remember walking down the street one day wondering about the preponderance of eighteen year olds wearing tee shirts with images like Scooby-Doo and the Atari logo. My own theory is that these icons have power beacause they were a touchstone of security in their childhood. For a ten year old child who finds him/her self being routinely shuffled between two parents after a divorce, everything seems ambiguous and confusing. For a while, Mommy lives with Rob in Seattle. No..now they're broken up and Mommy is in upstate NY. Daddy is in California with his second wife etc. Wherever he finds himself, however, when the child pads downstairs on Saturday morning there are always his favorite shows! An anchor of crude myths in an uncertain world. What is missing is a larger worldview that goes back more that fifty years. It is no wonder to me that when these kids decide that they want to pursue art as a lifestyle, they often have difficulty creating focused work that effectively transcends the commercial culture. I contrast that with a Haitian friend of mine who recently put up a wonderful show in which she created a series of ceramic boats full of figurines as part of a metaphor about the experience of travel, drawing heavily on the experience of the hazards her people have faced in making their way to the United States. Beautiful, timeless, and substantial. I believe it is this quality which we all seek in our pursuit of the martial arts.

Meik Skoss

28th June 2000, 18:23

Just to set the record straight, I do not think and never have think/thought I am Japanese. Sweet Jay-zus! Why would I want to be?! You've got to have lived/trained there long enough to know what I mean by that. I like and respect lots of things about Japan and Japanese culture, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that it's a heckuva lot easier and nicer to live in the U.S. and to be an American.

I also think that one MUST live/train in the original place and culture for an extended period of time to have any sort of deep understanding of the martial arts (or other forms of traditional culture). Thus, if one is interested in budo or sado or kado, one needs to go to Japan. If one's "thing" is pentjak silat, best go to Malaysia or Indonesia. It's the same with Chinese arts: either Taiwan, Southeast Asia, Honkers, or the People's Republic of China. There's so much more to martial arts/traditional culture than techniques; I am absolutely convinced that one will never truly "get" it without that sort of deep immersion.

Re: Toda-ha Buko-ryu and the future succession, not that it is anybody's business but ours (members of the ryu), Nitta Sensei has, indeed, talked to me about the matter. No, the position was never "offered" to me, nor would I accept if it was. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Headmastership of a real koryu is something that only works if a Japanese is in the position -- only a person of that culture/society could possibly do all that's necessary.

Don Angier (whom I know slightly) may be in a slightly odd position. Whether or not what he calls Yanagi-ryu is "real" or not (and I've some questions about that, some of which he has been kind enough to answer, others which cannot be answered because he didn't have the information; if people have an interest in that, contact me personally via e-mail, at: <mskoss@koryubooks.com>), that's a unique, "one-off" kind of situation.

Shingetsu Muso Yanagi-ryu is a comprehensive system that is also from the Yanagawa-han (as, I am given to understand, was Yoshida Kotaro's family.) The Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, the more influential of the kobudo organizations in Japan, has, in fact, recognized Kano Takehiko as the head of the ryu. Kano is also a skilled exponent of Hoki-ryu and Shibukawa-ryu (under Suminaga Hiroshi Taketsugu). I doubt that Don's position would ever be considered even a remote possibility without some serious documentation. Even then, there'd probably be considerable resistance to the idea -- Japanese kobudo is, after all, Japanese. Purely and simply, the idea of a non-Japanese being a headmaster isn't a possibility.

Toda-ha Buko-ryu is a case in point. There are a number of people who hold okuden (mokuroku), all but Nitta S. are not Japanese. There are three people with the title of "shihan" and only Nitta S. is Japanese. There are four people with a "shihan-dai" license; none are Japanese. At this time. As the headmaster of Toda-ha Buko-ryu, Nitta S. is a very rare person, a person who is able to look beyond nationality, age, sex, or race to the individual inside, but she is also very realistic and is aware of the heavy responsibility she bears in ensuring the ryu continues as a viable entity. I'm not betraying a confidence when I say that she would never, every do anything (like naming a non-Japanese) to succeed her. The very thought is ludicrous.

And, to further set the record straight, no, Ellis Amdur is *not* the ultimate technical authority. That'd be Nitta S. I should also mention that there are other persons, senior to Ellis, who hold the same technical qualifications and an individual who is even more senior but has not been given a license of that level. No matter. Ellis is the first person to have been given a shihan menjo, along with the seal, and the authority/responsibility to issue licenses by himself. The second person to receive this level of recognition and the authority to grant licenses (that's not the same thing as beung a headmaster) lives in Europe. All the people with okuden (mokuroku) are, technically speaking, "peers" in the art, albeit there's certainly a difference in seniority and whose opinion carries "more weight." The same is true in a number of other koryu, a phenomenon that I don't think is very well understood by people outside Japan. But that's a story for another day...

Nathan Scott

28th June 2000, 19:52

Mr. Skoss,

Thank you for coming on and commenting.

Would you mind offering a couple of possible scenarios that you feel are likely to be considered in the successorship of Buko-ryu (that follow the logical Japanese "rules" of ryu-ha succession)?

I ask partly out of general curiousity, but in particular because the topic of how koryu successorship is properly transmitted is being debated in Daito ryu at the web site of the alledged Honbu dojo in Abashiri, Hokkaido (per my email to you yesterday). They claim that if a current headmaster does not assign anyone to succeed them before passing, that tradition dictates that the ryu *must* be passed to a bloodline relative.

This is logical on one hand, but in the case of Daito ryu as I'm sure you well know, there is debate over what Tokimune Soke had really wanted, and to me that seems more important than "how things are typically done". For example, it does not seem that either faction is comfortable with Mrs. (or Mr.) Oshima assuming the Sokeship - including her younger sister Mrs. Yokoyama. If Tokimune Soke was following the "implied/factual code of ryu tranmission", wouldn't he have automatically considered his younger brother first (bad choice for obvious reasons), then his eldest daughter (Mrs. Oshima)? But he didn't - he appears to have named Mrs. Yokoyama to represent the art, and to work with Mrs. Oshima in administrative matters.

If there is no obvious, logical choice for succession, it would seem to me better to allow a break in the family line for one generation (or as many as necessary) until a qualified candidate can be chosen (one of their sons).

Any thoughts you have regarding the theory of transmission or of this issue in particular would be very welcome, as it is a hot topic right now!

Thanks,

[Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-28-2000 at 02:59 PM]

Tetsutaka

28th June 2000, 20:05

Originally posted by Meik Skoss
Toda-ha Buko-ryu is a case in point. There are a number of people who hold okuden (mokuroku), all but Nitta S. are not Japanese. There are three people with the title of "shihan" and only Nitta S. is Japanese. There are four people with a "shihan-dai" license; none are Japanese.

Escuse me, but what exactly does "shihan-dai" mean in this context? I was told that it was not a "functional term" in Japanese budo.

Thanks in advance,

Meik Skoss

28th June 2000, 20:24

"Shihan-dai" is a term that can be taken, in the context of Toda-ha Buko-ryu, as a person who is licensed to teach as a representative of the headmaster, Nitta Suzu(y)o. "Shihan," on t'other hand, is a person who is both licensed to teach and who has authority to grant licenses over his/her name and name of the headmaster. This is conferred by a license, and the official hanko of the ryu, which is applied to the license in a certain position as a means of authenticating the document.

Another meaning of "shihan-dai" is "assistant instructor," but that is a little problematic in some ways. It really is a function of the particular context. Given it is TBR I was talking about, think of it as a person who can teach and is the representative of the headmaster.

ghp

28th June 2000, 22:52

Houston,

[what does] "shihan-dai" mean in this context? I was told that it was not a "functional term" in Japanese budo.

The ~dai suffix means "for, or in place of". Example: "(noun)~dai hitsu" means someone "wrote (brushed) on behalf" of someone else.

I think the "non-functional" [erroneous] term used in the US is "soke-dai" -- some people think it means the appointed/designated inheritor of a system. From my understanding -- and Meik, correct me if I'm wrong -- the proper term is "soke dairi" meaning "Acting Soke" -- and is used when the soke is too sick, etc., to perform his/her responsibilities, but has yet to officially retire. It has nothing to do with an "heir apparent."

Meik -- I'm still missing the publication information page from "Kenjutsu Kyohan Shokai." (hint, hint) Can I get you to send me a copy?

Regards
Guy

Ellis Amdur

28th June 2000, 23:57

I notice my name being taken in vain here, so to support what Meik wrote. Nitta Sensei is not retired - she is not only the soke, but the chief instructor of the Tokyo dojo. I am the technical authority of only my dojo, and even there, I defer to Nitta Sensei - not out of some kind of pseudo humbleness, but because she knows much more than I. I send my students to Japan in hopes that she will fix what I've let go astray. If I am at the dojo of one of my dojo brothers, such as Meik, they are the technical authority not I.
If I go to Tokyo, everyone there is junior to me in rank and in years, and as I practice with people, I may correct something that I think is incorrect (and if corrected in turn by Nitta Sensei, I get the benefit). I do not teach there, nor would I ever expect to. It's not my dojo.
Were someone of even roughly my years of experience (for example, Meik is senior to me, and others very strong, a few years less), we will discuss technical points, and sometimes one of us will come around and sometimes we'll agree to disagree. Of course, in the end, I will be absolutely convinced I am right, and he or she a blithering idiot, but if it's merely a technical fine point, it makes no never mind. They are not in my dojo nor I in theirs. On the other hand, if someone were to somehow violate the structure of the ryu itself, corrupting it in some way, I think that both Meik and I would be rather intense about it.

BESt

Ellis Amdur

MarkF

29th June 2000, 10:08

Please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding which has been made. My comment was only a general comment concerning the Japanese and koryu. There are very few whose claims I take seriously, but I have read and seen more of you than anyone else, so please accept this apology. It wasn't meant as it came out, and I do seem to step in stuff quite often on the Internet. Thank you.

BTW: Are you playing judo and may I ask where and with whom? I am a simple judoka so please excuse the impudence in asking you.

Regards,

Dennis Hooker

29th June 2000, 15:03

There are many Japanese who love to play, sing and listen to American blues, bluegrass and my current love, and that of my youth, Appalachian folk music. They sing the songs and play the music and it sounds right (sometimes), and they can and do love it every bit as much as we do. Some can sing it better and play it better than we can also. However, they will never know what it is to be Appalachian dirt poor. They will never know what it’s like to be raised along the banks of an American river in a house with dirt fools and no heat in the bedrooms. This certainly does not invalidate their work and their ability. It also does not mean they can’t show some of us a thing or two in technique as well. It does mean that they will never be able to feel the guts of the music, or understand its birth in the American poor and working class experience.

I believe that my Aikido experience certainly is not impaired by my lack of time in Japan, and although my MJER is lacking in the cultural since I hope it is not to out of the main stream in the technical since. Even if it is that can be fixed. I believe what gave birth to Aikido transcends a culture but I also think with MJER that is not the case. I will do my best to keep the art alive from my view and vantage point, and let others better qualified tend to the historical aspects of it’s connection to its source. Does this invalidate my effort? Of course not but I must understand who I am in the course of things and I must not regret or lament the fact I am who I am.

So what is it that is lost in the not being there? Whith each master of the Appalachian Mountain Music the music changes I suppose with each master of the koryu the technique changes to some degree. So is it only the cluture that differs?

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Originally posted by John Lindsey
Howdy,

I am surprised nobody has answered this yet...or maybe they want to but don't have their Nomex dogi on.

Don Angier is probably the best known and respected person claiming to have been given such a title. I am not sure of the extact details of this, so maybe Toby or someone else can add to it.

JosephBlow

29th June 2000, 17:58

Originally posted by Dennis Hooker
There are many Japanese who love to play, sing and listen to American blues, bluegrass and my current love, and that of my youth, Appalachian folk music.

*snip*

It does mean that they will never be able to feel the guts of the music, or understand its birth in the American poor and working class experience.

Hi there. Having heard some completely kickass bluegrass players in Yokohama, I can understand some of what you're getting at. It was surreal to be sitting in a room full of people who could play all of my requests and sing the words with native-sounding pronounciation and inflection, but not be able to talk about it with me in English afterward.

Nevertheless, this sounds like that idea that white folks can never have soul. Eminem and I disagree, but folks buying this would argue forcefully that even a Japanese bluegrass player that lives for years with the banjo player in Deliverance will never quite get it either.

Doesn't it bother you as a foreigner to say that even if a foreigner is able to comfortably read and discuss all aspects of her art in Japanese, has flawless technique and is willing to accept all of the social responsibilities associated with successorship (including living in Japan), that foreigner will never understand what it is to be Japanese enough to _understand_ her art?

Help me if I misunderstood you.

Regards,

Rich B

30th June 2000, 00:13

Mr. Threadgill's earlier story about Mr. Angier's visit to a Japanese martial arts collector reminded me of something:

"The gentleman told me he had never seen a foreigner with such detailed knowledge of Japanese martial implements."

While I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Angier or his style's linage, I mean no disrespect, but it is not very surprising to hear a Japanese person being overly complimentary toward a foreigner who shows any knowledge of their culture.

When I was working in Japan, one of my subordinates was planning her wedding. She was discussing the many implements and accessories which go with a formal Japanese wedding kimono at lunch one day. She didn't know why there was a small knife included in the ensemble. I told her the reason and the historical background for this.

You would have thought I had revealed some secret texts by the expressions and comments on the other office ladies. They kept saying that I knew more about Japanese history than they did.

Many times the simple act of eating Japanese dishes would elicit surprise and wonder from locals. In many of their minds, foreigners are not able to tolerate Japanese food. Even being able to speak a few simple phrases in their native language would result in surprise and excessive compliments about my "excellent comprehension" of Japanese. It didn't matter that I may have learned the phrase from watching television the previous evening.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on such flattery. It happens all the time in Japan for exhibiting the slightest comprehension of their culture.

George Ledyard

30th June 2000, 03:37

The details of how transmission is made and to whom is best dealt with by the experts, which i am not. Actually I am rather glad that I am in Aikido where there isn't this issue and peeple are stuck judging you by how good you are on the mat. Not so much to debate that way.

But I would like to point out that as we speak thing s are changing in Japan. Not only is it an issue of some discussion whether a foreigner can really imbibe a martial ryu as it was meant to be, it is probably getting just as difficult for most modern Japanese to do so. What does the average modern Japanese have in common with the samurai of old. Less and less with each passing generation I would say. In many of the arts, not just the martial arts but many of the traditional cultural arts, the students that are the most dedicated are foreigners not Japanese. In many of the arts the participation on the part of the Japanese practicioners is more in the style of a hobby. Part of their heritage, something enriching in their lives but not as a way of life. Many of my acquaintances have studied various arts in Japan for substantial periods of time. Their reports indicate that the Japanese are not the senior people in the arts they are pursuing. Americans, French, Germans, I am sure other countries as well are there in Japan throwing their whole lives into their training. They work to train, they devote every resource in their lives to their training. It is not lost on the older Japanese masters that in many cases if they wish to pass on what they have learned in a lifetime of training it is going to have to be to a foriegner. That being so we are either going to open up the conception of what it is to be a legitimate teacher of Koryu (or other arts) to include non-Japanese teachers or we will simply have to state that the koryu (or traditional arts) are defunct and then we can get on with training. This is going to be true in the non-classical arts as well. The best Aikido in the world is not being done in Japan anymore (with the exception of the few old timers who are still alive). Just as Buddhism moved from India to SE Asia, to China, to Tibet, to Mongolia, and to Japan only to die out in its country of origin I see that trend in Japanese martial arts unless there is a renaissance of interest within the younger generation of Japanese. Will that be the death of the arts? I don't think so any more than it killed Buddhism. It'll just be different. Then we can sit around on e-budo debating whose difference is the real authentic differnce.

George Ledyard

30th June 2000, 03:40

The details of how transmission is made and to whom is best dealt with by the experts, which I am not. Actually I am rather glad that I am in Aikido where there isn't this issue and people are stuck judging you by how good you are on the mat. Not so much to debate that way.

But I would like to point out that as we speak thing s are changing in Japan. Not only is it an issue of some discussion whether a foreigner can really imbibe a martial Ryu as it was meant to be, it is probably getting just as difficult for most modern Japanese to do so. What does the average modern Japanese have in common with the samurai of old? Less and less with each passing generation I would say. In many of the arts, not just the martial arts but many of the traditional cultural arts, the students that are the most dedicated are foreigners not Japanese. In many of the arts the participation on the part of the Japanese practitioners is more in the style of a hobby. Part of their heritage, something enriching in their lives but not as a way of life. Many of my acquaintances have studied various arts in Japan for substantial periods of time. Their reports indicate that the Japanese are not the senior people in the arts they are pursuing. Americans, French, Germans, I am sure other countries as well are there in Japan throwing their whole lives into their training. They work to train, they devote every resource in their lives to their training. It is not lost on the older Japanese masters that in many cases if they wish to pass on what they have learned in a lifetime of training it is going to have to be to a foreigner. That being so we are either going to open up the conception of what it is to be a legitimate teacher of Koryu (or other arts) to include non-Japanese teachers or we will simply have to state that the Koryu (or traditional arts) are defunct and then we can get on with training. This is going to be true in the non-classical arts as well. The best Aikido in the world is not being done in Japan anymore (with the exception of the few old timers who are still alive). Just as Buddhism moved from India to SE Asia, to China, to Tibet, to Mongolia, and to Japan only to die out in its country of origin I see that trend in Japanese martial arts unless there is a renaissance of interest within the younger generation of Japanese. Will that be the death of the arts? I don't think so any more than it killed Buddhism. It'll just be different. Then we can sit around on e-budo debating whose difference is the real authentic difference.

Earl Hartman

30th June 2000, 17:32

George:

I would like to point out that, as has been mentioned on this board many times before, there are a number of licensed foreign koryu instructors, some with the highest level licenses that can be given, so it is obvious that the inheritors of these arts feel confident that the foreigners whom they have licensed (and, by inferrence, any other foreigner who might one day qualify) are capable of understanding and teaching the arts in question. The "can the foreigners really understand" point is, at least in these cases, quite moot, as the masters of these arts, the only people really qualified to answer this question, have already done so.

As has also been mentioned, there is a significant difference between receiving the highest license of technical mastery and being designated the official lineal successor of a particular ryu. Mr. Skoss has addressed this issue quite forthrightly and lucidly.

It is true that more and more foreigners are studying traditional Japanese arts. Good. It is also true that, in general, there are still many more Japanese who continue to do so. Good as well. I think it is extremely dangerous to generalize that "the Japanese" study these arts "just as hobbies" while "the foreigners" are the ones who study really seriously. Some foreigners study seriously, some don't. Some Japanese study seriously, some don't.

It may very well be that some particular ryu have a number of foreigners in the senior ranks. The situation may be completely different in other ryu.

I sense an implied criticism of the koryu in general in the tone of your post. You seem to feel that the gendai arts are better because people are judged solely on skill and no one bothers worrying about lineage or succession. This is fine if you consider the bugei to be nothing more than a set of physical skills which can be displayed in public contests or demonstrations. Skill is important, of course, and no one is saying it is not. However, there is more to it than that. The classical ryu pass on their traditions in a different manner, and rather than criticizing them for it, I think that we should accept the fact that gendai and koryu arts are different. As I have said before, this does not necessarily need to be seen as a value judgement, even if some people want to make it into one.

Earl

George Ledyard

30th June 2000, 22:25

You have misundertood my point . I certainly don't feel that one is better than the other. What I did say was that I am personally glad that it's not so complicated in Aikido. People are quite creative about the ways in which they can create division and conflict between one another. Often it starts with a minor or even imagined distinction and is blown up into a truly devisive issue that can even occasion conflict. So when we are speaking of Koryu and we get to the point where the discussion involves whether someone like Angier Sensei is a legitimate exponent or not we have gotten to a hair splitting degree that I don't find useful or productive particularly.

My point was that someone like Angier Sensei in particular is a good example of a teacher who has thrown himself into traditional Samuari in a way that is rare even for a modern Japanese person. With the changes in modern Japanese culture I think that whatever criticisms that you can level at the foreign koryu practitioners as to their inadquecies to represent the koryu in leadership positions will be exactly the same issues for Japanese exponents.

If I implied that there are no serious Japanese students or that all foreign studenst are serious I didn't mean to. I was using generalization to make a point. Since this is a web discussion group and not a dissertation a certain amount of generaliztion is necessary. I stand by the general gist of what I said, ackknowedging that there are many exceptions that won't fit the overall trend that I was pointing out.

Earl Hartman

30th June 2000, 23:18

George:

Thank you for your clarification. I am an outsider as far as aikido is concerned, although I was fairly well acquainted with a Shin-Shin Toitsu Aikido exponent once who regaled me with stories about how Tohei Sensei fell into such disfavor with the main Honbu group that, apparently, some photographs of Tohei in group photos with O-Sensei were aribrushed to remove Tohei Sensei from the photos. I cannot vouch for the veracity of this particular story, but it does seem that there is serious sectarianism in the aikido world as well. I agree that it often seems silly how people can find ways to divide themselves, but for an outsider like me it seems that all of the arts, whther gendai or koryu, are similarly afflicted with this particular disease. Of course, if one concerns oneself exclusively with one's own line of a tradition, then sectarian differences become moot.

I don't recall anyone ever questioning Angier Sensei's qualifications as a serious martial artist. Although I have never met Mr. Threadgill, for example, I know people who know him, and from his posts he strikes me as a serious and accomplished martial artist. He has nothing but praise for Angier Sensei's abilities, and, since he knows Angier Sensei and I do not, I will take him at his word, as is only reasonable and proper. As far as I can tell, the only question that has been raised concerns Angier Sensei's status as the sole inheritor of a particular style. Again, as an outsider, this seens to me to be an entirely different issue. To my eyes, this question was strictly an historical one and did not cast any aspersions on Angier Sensei's abilities. As I said, I do not say this to take one side or the other, since I do not have the expertise to judge.

From a strictly scholarly perspective, the effort to verify the historical provenance of a particular ryu and how it has been transmitted seems to me to be an eminently reasonable endeavor. To some, this might seem like archeaology or evaluating antiques: a skill that requires a great deal of study and the mastery of a massive amount of arcane lore and picayune bits of knowledge, but which, in the final analysis, is only useful for evaluating things that most people don't care too much about.

As I said, recognizing a difference and making a value judgement based upon it are two different things, and they don't necessarily need to go together.

Earl

MarkF

2nd July 2000, 15:08

Originally posted by Don Cunningham:

Many times the simple act of eating Japanese dishes would elicit surprise and wonder from locals. In many of their minds, foreigners are not able to tolerate Japanese food. Even being able to speak a few simple phrases in their native language would result in surprise and excessive compliments about my "excellent comprehension" of Japanese. It didn't matter that I may have learned the phrase from watching television the previous evening.

This is something which has not elicited reply because I believe this to be true, although I have never been to Japan. I have, however, lived South of the Border, and I can tell you the look people get when eating menudo or posole with the hottest chile in town (chilequines) is surprising to the citizens as they expect foreigners to explode into flames, or at least drink something cold by the gallon in an attempt to put out the fire. While I don't know of the appetite of the Japanese to a Westerner eating something (Earl can fill you in on what it is) which is prepared in paste of its own guts, I can tell you that the people of Mexico delight in the spectacle, and even the grudging respect for someone who is sweating, tears rolling down their faces, and then asking for no liquid refreshment which they know only makes it work. Then again, I have never gone into a taqueria and ordered Tacos de sesos (brains of no particular animal) and would be something in which the smell of them cooking is enough to cause me to snort vomit through my nose. I think this is "any culture, International" so the delighted faces in Japan upon witnessing the general visiting gaijin is a look found in most areas of the worlds.

originally posted by George Ledyard:
. What I did say was that I am personally glad that it's not so complicated in Aikido.

It isn't as complicated as in Aikido? While finding and being accepted to a dojo, be it here or in Japan may be much easier, the politics of doing any style of the aiki arts is so abundant that the statement is difficult to comprehend. I have heard people make fun of "aiki bunnies," the very believers in Ueshiba O-sensei as "fairy stuff." Some say they are doing aikido but not that "philosophy crap," but the tight circle rough and tough aiki which is missing in the "aikikai" aikido. "Aikido is nothing but soft judo."

It may be easier than trying to find the right koryu instructor, but it is no easier than finding the right style or even, the right dojo in which to learn aikido. I have no doubt that, dojo to dojo, one experiences any art differently, but the politics can make it as difficult, providing the student, or teacher, knows what s/he is doing. Even in judo today, if you want to learn "traditional" judo, it takes at least the same kind of search to find the right place. The average judoka will say "we don't use karate-like striking. We (as if they speak for every judo dojo) do not do not kick, or use swords, knifes guns (well, this is only true in the use of such in an offensive manner, but it is there)," and this comes from the mouths of yudansha and higher rankng teachers. Things are not only different between gendai and koryu in this manner, but are different within any art which one needs only to go to another dojo in another town.

Yes, it is very easy to find good aikido. I live in a rather small, but growing town and there are multiple dojo here which offer aikido (aikikai comes to mind). There are three judo dojo here, none which are open year round, and each of then offers something different depending on what you seek. If you want competition, it is there, but I suggest a visit or two to make sure. If you only want self defense, the same advice applies. If you want a more traditional approach (eg, Kano style), make visits to all three dojo. But remember, training will not be had all year round. Sorry, I got way off topic.

My point is this: You are doing a koryu and go to Japan to do it, and expect to be welcomed warmly. This may happen if you are just visiting, but you should be remineded that you may be asked to leave. Same with gendai, or at least aikido and judo. If you say "I want to lear how to kill." An honest teacher is going to send you packing to Dr. dai Soke down the street. In a way, it would seem easier to find the elusive koryu teacher as there are so few from which to chose. Trial and error go hand in hand with aikido. Not all are lucky enough on their first sojourn of the art. Buyer Beware is a good thought to keep in mind.

Jason Backlund

3rd July 2000, 06:11

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghp
[B]Houston,

"The ~dai suffix means "for, or in place of". Example: "(noun)~dai hitsu" means someone "wrote (brushed) on behalf" of someone else.

"I think the "non-functional" [erroneous] term used in the US is "soke-dai" -- some people think it means the appointed/designated inheritor of a system. From my understanding -- and Meik, correct me if I'm wrong -- the proper term is "soke dairi" meaning "Acting Soke" -- and is used when the soke is too sick, etc., to perform his/her responsibilities, but has yet to officially retire. It has nothing to do with an "heir apparent."

The word 'dai' also means 'generation.' In this context, the term soke-dai does imply an inheritor to a system. The creator of an art that uses this type of succession would have been referred to as either ryuso (founder of a ryu) or shodai (first generation). While he was alive, his successor would be designated soke-dai, who, upon the death of the ryuso, would become the ni-dai soke (second generation source of the family). His successor would be the san-dai (third generation), and so forth. The terms soke dairi and soke daihyo have additional kanji (ri and hyo) added to them which change the meanings. These do not denote succession, rather, as you pointed out, they are types of representatives of the soke.

Jason Backlund
Kobushin Kai
Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

[Edited by Jason Backlund on 07-03-2000 at 01:14 AM]

Meik Skoss

4th July 2000, 19:50

In (belated) response to Nathan Scott's questions regarding Toda-ha Buko-ryu and its internal affairs, I have to say it is not something I'm willing to talk about in detail in any public forum. They're honest questions, quite good ones as a matter of fact, and although I don't mind making general statements, it really isn't appropriate to say much that is very specific. It might be of interest to people here, but it's really no business of anybody outside Toda-ha Buko-ryu.

So, sorry, but, I can't give you any more information. As far as your other questions (re: Daito-ryu are concerned, I don't really know much about what's going on and try to not get involved in any of that aiki stuff. Been there and done that -- even have a couple of t-shirts to prove it. I don't need any more, thankyouverymuch.

ghp

5th July 2000, 19:49

The word 'dai' also means 'generation.' In this context, the term soke-dai does imply an inheritor to a system.

Sorry Jason, you are not quite correct. "Sei" means generation. Soke-dai does not mean inheritor; as a matter of fact, it doesn't mean anything except "soke's representative."

When "~dai" is used to designate inheritor, its use is that of a "counter;" you must first have a number preceding this counter, such as sho-dai, ni-dai, san-dai, etc. And that is usually followed by another counter : "me" [san-dai me]; which is subsequently followed by "soke." You are correct in that this usage DOES imply inheritor. Concerning shodai, "sho" means "initial/beginning." Usually I've seen it written as "Shodai soke; sandai-me soke; juyon-dai me ["soke" being implied]. And, of course, "roku-sei" meaning "6th Generation" [again, with "soke" being implied].

The creator of an art that uses this type of succession would have been referred to as either ryuso (founder of a ryu) or shodai (first generation).

Ryuso and Sou-sha both mean founder. "Shodai" is not used by itself; I've always seen and heard it precede "soke." "Shodai soke"simply means "Intital/first soke."

While he was alive, his successor would be designated soke-dai, who, upon the death of the ryuso, would become the ni-dai soke (second generation source of the family). His successor would be the san-dai (third generation), and so forth.

Sorry -- I have not experienced this in Japan; although I see it all the time in the US. I am willing to admit that my knowledge-base is not as broad as is Messrs. Skoss and Amdur -- they may have heard of this usage in Japan. And if your explanation is the case, what happens when there are multiple "soke/shihan-dai" appointed?

The terms soke dairi and soke daihyo have additional kanji (ri and hyo) added to them which change the meanings. These do not denote succession, rather, as you pointed out, they are types of representatives of the soke.

I agree with you [perhaps because you agree with me??:) -- no, because it is correct] ... Except that "soke-dai" and "soke-dairi" both mean the exact same thing : "Soke's representative."

I should also point out that there is no definitive, single "correct" usage in Japan (still, I've never seen "soke-dai" to mean "heir apparent"). Different schools have differing traditions.

Regards,
Guy

Jason Backlund

6th July 2000, 05:01

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"Sorry Jason, you are not quite correct. "Sei" means generation. Soke-dai does not mean inheritor; as a matter of fact, it doesn't mean anything except "soke's representative."
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Guy- The first time I heard the term soke-dai, it was used by Matsubara Isao (late soke of the Matsubara Ryu) to designate his nephew Matsubara Saburo as his successor.

But, in the interest of referring strictly to definitions as used by the Japanese Ministry of Education- I will directly quote from a book entitled -A Guide to Reading and Writing Japanese- a dictionary edited by Florence Sakade, Emori Kenji, and Ohashi Susumu.

"DAI, generation, price; ka(wari), substitute, deputy, compensation, exchange; ka(waru), to take the place of, to relieve; yo, generation, the age, the reign"

This is not the combination of this word with other kanji, but the five stroke kanji of 'dai' by itself. Notice the definitions "generation," "to take the place of," "to relieve," and "reign." The word "representative" is applicable, I agree with you there, but in my experience, it must be augmented with the kanji hyo or ri (and perhaps others that I'm not familiar with) so as not to be mistaken for "generation."

By the way- in this same dictionary, there are 31 kanji which are pronounced "Sei," non of which are directly defined as "generation." If you mean the second kanji in the word "sensei," that one is "life, birth, to be born." There was a 13 stroke kanji that meant "year, age, time" and that could possibly be interchanged with "generation."

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"When "~dai" is used to designate inheritor, its use is that of a "counter;"... usually followed by another counter : "me" [san-dai me]; which is subsequently followed by "soke."...
"Ryuso and Sou-sha both mean founder. "Shodai" is not used by itself; I've always seen and heard it precede "soke." "Shodai soke"simply means "Intital/first soke."
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You mean -initial/first generation soke.
When I discussed this, I was using our kakei as my primary source, and we use ryuso rather than shodai, so I won't say anything regarding that. In our kakei it is written Ryuso, nidai, etc., followed only by the name of the person (there is no soke or me suffix added). One other place that I have seen this done is in the book -Flashing Steel- by Masayuki Shimabukuro and Leonard J. Pellman. Their kakei (or they refer to it as keizu) as written by Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa is listed in the intro, and is also devoid of the use of 'me' and 'soke.'

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"...if your explanation is the case, what happens when there are multiple "soke/shihan-dai" appointed?"
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That is purely a matter of convention or tradition of a particular style. Within the Matsubara Ryu, the tradition is to appoint soke-dai that are within the family, and the eldest would be the one to succeed. If no one in the family is capable, then a soke-daihyo is appointed to keep things going while someone within the family is being groomed to take the position.

By the way- if not Soke-dai, then what, in your experience is the title given to the next in line, so that there is no confusion as to the successor?

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"I should also point out that there is no definitive, single "correct" usage in Japan (still, I've never seen "soke-dai" to mean "heir apparent"). Different schools have differing traditions."
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Here I would certainly agree. I am just beginning to learn about other styles of Nihon Bujutsu (I've been submerged in Yamagata Ryu and Matsubara Ryu) and am astounded at how much is considered conventional wisdom concerning different styles. In my post, I was only trying to lend validity to an expression that I am familiar with. I didn't expect to get blasted for it :-) I think there are too many people looking for rules and absolute traditions between and among ryu, where there might not be any. As a matter of Nihongo and the usage of Soke-dai - what can I say, I've heard Japanese soke use it, and the definition fits.

I hope I didn't offend you with my post. You seem to be very knowledgeable. I do think, however, that no matter how much time you've spent in Japan, there could still be very many ryu whose traditions and use of terminology you haven't even touched on (That sounded a little pretentious on my part- sorry). You've admitted as much, I think you're just concerned that some Gaikokujin made 'soke-dai' up (a valid concern for sure). Perhaps this is an obscure use of the word in Japan that spread like wild fire after being used only once in America. Who can say?

Best wishes,

Jason Backlund
Kobushin Kai
Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu

[Edited by Jason Backlund on 07-06-2000 at 12:07 AM]

ghp

6th July 2000, 06:47

Hi Jason.

First off, sorry if it seemed that I "flamed" you -- didn't mean to sound that way.

The first time I heard the term soke-dai, it was used by Matsubara Isao (late soke of the Matsubara Ryu) to designate his nephew Matsubara Saburo as his successor.

Well, it's a new one on me -- but as I alluded to, my knowledge is fairly short-based. I've only encountered this with Americans.

By the way- if not Soke-dai, then what, in your experience is the title given to the next in line, so that there is no confusion as to the successor?

Unfortunately, Nakamura sensei hasn't, so it's likely to be a blood bath after he crosses "Sanzu no Kawa." But your's is a good question -- hopefully someone will be able to provide an answer (I'm still in the learning phase).

"DAI, generation, price; ka(wari), substitute, deputy, compensation, exchange; ka(waru), to take the place of, to relieve; yo, generation, the age, the reign"

Well -- I capitulate. Dr. Nelson gives the same (#364) --

By the way- in this same dictionary, there are 31 kanji which are pronounced "Sei," non of which are directly defined as "generation."

Try Nelson's #97 -- the second part of "nisei." Have seen a copy of Nakayama Hakudo's eimeiroku in which he identifies himself as "juhachi sei" [soke implied].

I do think, however, that no matter how much time you've spent in Japan, there could still be very many ryu whose traditions and use of terminology you haven't even touched on

You are so correct. Today has been a good lesson re "soke-dai" which I will take into consideration (and investigate a bit more). It's good to see you posting -- Did you just join e-budo? How about a little information about yourself? You appear to have more than a passing knowledge of Japanese -- did you formally study and/or live in Japan?

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Regards,
Guy

Jason Backlund

6th July 2000, 07:24

Hello Guy,

Yes, I did just join e-budo, and I'm having a lot of fun. Especially reading about that GM Soke world champion Soto person. Think there is any chance that his mistery kanji could be a poorly written jo/ue/kami, and that maybe he mistook the kami for the one that reads deity or god? After all, it's the one title he has left to claim :-)

Anyway, I had a chance to look at your Kenshinkan dojo website. I'm impressed. I've heard great things about Nakamura sensei. Didn't he appear in the documentary 'Budo?'

As for me- I began studying Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu when I was eight years old in Orlando. My teacher was a Matsubara Ryu Soke Daihyo by the name of Yamagata Takashi. He became like a father figure to me. I was his uke and primary student while he was developing his own brand of kenjutsu and goshinjutsu. Originally, we thought it would be Yamagata Ha Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu, but as it turned out, Matsubara Isao insisted that it was unique enough to be simply Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu.

As for Japan- my dad is half Japanese, the son of a serviceman and my late grandmother Okano Yoshiko (I guess this makes me quarter Japanese, but it doesn't show). I've been to Japan three times to visit family (which rarely helps my Japanese, since they all want to practice English), and have trained at the former Matsubara dojo, and once with an Aikido club in Kamakura. It's a great place to visit, but I like it just a little better here.

Best wishes,

Jason Backlund
Kobushin Kai
Yamagata Ryu Bujutsu, Matsubara Ryu Bujutsu