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Finny
17th September 2005, 04:17
Just found these clips on another forum, apparently the guy demonstrating had a couple of years training with Sagawa sensei before he passed away - he now teaches his own style called "aunkai" - but these clips just seem to be really very good Daito Ryu to me:

http://www.filegone.com/43620050916083359/

Grab demo 1
http://www.filegone.com/30820050916084042/
!
Grab demo 2
http://www.filegone.com/32820050916084454/
!
Grab demo 3
http://www.filegone.com/39220050916085122/
!
Grab demo 4
http://www.filegone.com/75820050916085551/

Just thought I'd share with you guys....

bicman5000
23rd October 2005, 13:18
the links don't work

Charles Henri

Finny
23rd October 2005, 14:36
Haha - sorry Charles, you're just a bit late for them (seems like no one was that interested anyways...)

I'll see about getting them reposted somewhere - stay tuned.

bicman5000
26th October 2005, 18:19
:( :(

hope to see them online soon :)

CH

jtm
1st November 2005, 06:01
Hi guys.

I'm new here, but at one point I downloaded those aunkai clips. I have them locally and can get them to someone if they want to host them somewhere.

In fact, seeing those clips are what got me to this site, I'm looking around for more info on daito-ryu, hopefully I can meet up with some folks in my area and talk about aiki.

I live in SF.

Thanks,
jtm

Finny
1st November 2005, 13:53
Hi Jesse - If you want to share the clips with the rest of us, you can upload them to http://www.yousendit.com - quick and easy, if not longlasting.

Sorry Charles, I tried to get in touch with the guy who originally posted the clips, but have yet to hear bak from him...

Hopefully Jesse can help us out.

jtm
1st November 2005, 19:35
Click here to watch Akuzawa-grab1 (http://media.putfile.com/Akuzawa-grab1)
Click here to watch Akuzawa-grab2 (http://media.putfile.com/Akuzawa-grab2)
Click here to watch Akuzawa-grab3 (http://media.putfile.com/Akuzawa-grab3)
Click here to watch Akuzawa-grab4 (http://media.putfile.com/Akuzawa-grab4)
Click here to watch Akuzawa-fingergrab (http://media.putfile.com/Akuzawa-fingergrab)

Here they are. I'd love to hear any feedback on the skills represented here.
From the original poster it has been said that these are supposed to demonstrate specific uses of Aiki.

chrismoses
2nd November 2005, 00:22
Saw these a while back when his student was pushing him as the greatest thing since sliced (crustless of course) bread. Honestly, not that impressed, if you've ever been thrown around by Don Angier or his guys, you'll see nothing new here. It's not that it's bad, but it's not exactly groundbreaking...

jtm
2nd November 2005, 01:08
Saw these a while back when his student was pushing him as the greatest thing since sliced (crustless of course) bread. Honestly, not that impressed, if you've ever been thrown around by Don Angier or his guys, you'll see nothing new here.

Hi Chris,

I haven't had the pleasure of being thrown around by anyone doing DR. :)

Would you say the body skills that Akuzawa is displaying are being displayed by Don Angier and his guys?

I'd like to know more. I'm located in SF, as I noted previously, is there anyone around here that you would recommend I get in touch with?

I'm not familiar with Don Angier, like I said I only recently started researching.

Thanks in advance,

chrismoses
2nd November 2005, 17:14
Don's not DR he's Yanagi Ryu which is considered the 'other' legitimate Aikijujutsu line. Some of his former students lurk here, though I don't know of anyone in your area (for yanagi or DR). I'd head over to AikidoJournal.com and start digging through their archives, there's info on Don and video clips of various DR practitioners. Hope that helps.

I would say that *disclaimer* from what I can see in the video*/disclaimer*, he's doing very similar stuff to Yanagi Ryu but not nearly as well. Note: not saying he's bad, looks like fun stuff, but it's nothing I haven't seen before.

Nathan Scott
22nd November 2005, 23:43
Well, all I'll say about them is that it looks like Mr. Akuzawa is pretty athletic, and appears to me to come from a kicking/punching background primarily (?).

BTW, I'd be interested to hear more about the training he claims from Sagawa Sensei. Like what period he studied, and where? I ask because if he had studied with Sagawa Sensei, or at the Sagawa Dojo, the members there would surely know who he is, right?

Regards,

Asura
16th January 2006, 03:15
Seems like someone already started a post so I thought I'd fill in:

Btw, I'm the student that was "pushing akuzawa as the greatest thing since sliced bread.(crustless)"

I'll just say a couple things, first of all, videos lie. It doesn't look nearly as impressive as it feels. And looking at the videos...well lets just say I wouldn't be impressed myself.

Most people have already probably heard of him and the flaming/controversy on !!!!!!ido etc, so I won't go through the explanations of structure/alignment/groundpath etc etc again.

For those in Europe he will be doing a seminar in Europe from Feb 11-12 in Paris, France:

Here's a rough overview by Ed Hines who's hosting the event:
*********************************************************
La maison du Taiji, 57 rue Jules Ferry 93170 Bagnolet, Paris, France
Contact Edward Hines +33 680 28 86 39
edward@nlpschool.com

The development of an integrated physical structure and the ability to spontaneously apply the power it generates in a free form manner is the goal of internal martial arts training. Akuzawa Minoru is a contemporary practitioner who has focused his training on acquiring and developing the sophisticated body skills associated with this goal.

Akuzawa Sensei's Bodyskill comes through various Koryu teachers, unknown to most within the Japanese community, and Yukiyoshi Sagawa. Sagawa was a fellow student of Morihei Ueshiba under Sokaku Takeda. Within Daito Ryu, he is considered to be the student who exemplified the transmission of Sokaku Takeda's Aiki. Tatsuo Kimura in turn is known for having received these skills from Sagawa. Akuzawa Sensei studied under Sagawa Sensei for several years and continued after Sagawa's death with Kimura Sensei.

This will be Akuzawa Sensei's first seminar outside of Japan, and it is a rare opportunity to encounter the remarkable internal training techniques employed in Japanese Koryu. In two days, Akuzawa Sensei will present a set of effective training exercises, and will demonstrate the results of their practice. Participants will be invited to test his ability to manifest extraordinary internal strength in a variety of startling demonstrations, including martial application. Akuzawa Sensei will cover the practical and theoretical aspects of aligning and conditioning the body to generate and apply internal strength, focusing on both structure and dynamics.

Day One: Structure
 Solo bodywork derived from various Koryu.
 Solo bodywork derived from various Koryu.
 Akuzawa Sensei's unique 'nyu-ryoku' method of 'putting power into the opponent' - developed through kneeling and standing techniques that he recieved from Sagawa Sensei.
Day Two: Dynamics
 Paired exercises for applying the power developed alone in a moving situation.
 Explanation of how previous material applies internal martial arts and free fighting.
 Explanation of how previous material can be used to generate extraordinary power both to throw and to strike.

Cost: €80/day €150 for the weekend

Edward's note…I've not met Akuzawa, I've seen some clips which looked good. So why am I willing to put this seminar on? From my discussions with people who know him he has two outstanding attributes.

The ability to generate lots of force despite his small size (60kg) in live martial situations -- and a willingness to demonstrate

And

Willingness to teach these skills, backed up by thought in how to teach them. His students aren't told 'this is very hard it will take many years' but are given hard work that produces results in a shorter time scale.

Combine this with my natural curiousity -- I'm curious how different a Japanese approach to these arts can be…and I'm willing to take the risk to learn something. Actually I think this is a sure thing and it will be worth going.
**********************************************************

Rob John

Asura
16th January 2006, 03:24
And I know these posts were made awhile back but I thought I'd include this anyways:

The demonstrations were NOT of aiki, tho if you want to call it aiki feel free.
He's trying to demonstrate the importance of "standing" and that you should need a "stance" persay to pull these things off. As in, he's trying to show everything in the most "simplified" version. It just happened that it ended up looking "Aiki" like when he did it that way. He can make his stuff look and feel like Internal CMA if he wants, and then use the same body skill with DRAJJ techniques...its all the same.

Yes his enrollment at Sagawa is verifiable, and in fact we had a student who studied 10 years at Sagawa's place come by last night (which was kind of dissapointed...didn't have nearly the structure I thought he might...and the fact that he was floored by Ark should speak of Ark's skills...but feeling is believing right? ;) )

And yes his background was originally more in the ringsport of Sanda. He originally competed in the first International Sanda Competition in Beijing, China in 1991, took first place in his weight class (65kg). These days though he's more about building the "core" or "foundation" common to all high level MAs, tho he's considering on getting our feet wet in Sanda/Muay Thai at some point.

Anyone have interest in the seminar/ happen to be in Tokyo and want to participate in a class/ or just want to shoot the "#$t email me at
foshizzlepizzle at hotmail dot com

Rob John

thomas54
16th January 2006, 14:20
And I know these posts were made awhile back but I thought I'd include this anyways:

The demonstrations were NOT of aiki, tho if you want to call it aiki feel free.
He's trying to demonstrate the importance of "standing" and that you should need a "stance" persay to pull these things off. As in, he's trying to show everything in the most "simplified" version. It just happened that it ended up looking "Aiki" like when he did it that way. He can make his stuff look and feel like Internal CMA if he wants, and then use the same body skill with DRAJJ techniques...its all the same.

Yes his enrollment at Sagawa is verifiable, and in fact we had a student who studied 10 years at Sagawa's place come by last night (which was kind of dissapointed...didn't have nearly the structure I thought he might...and the fact that he was floored by Ark should speak of Ark's skills...but feeling is believing right? ;) )

And yes his background was originally more in the ringsport of Sanda. He originally competed in the first International Sanda Competition in Beijing, China in 1991, took first place in his weight class (65kg). These days though he's more about building the "core" or "foundation" common to all high level MAs, tho he's considering on getting our feet wet in Sanda/Muay Thai at some point.

Anyone have interest in the seminar/ happen to be in Tokyo and want to participate in a class/ or just want to shoot the "#$t email me at
foshizzlepizzle at hotmail dot com

Rob John

HI Rob

I couldn't attend the class on Saturday, but I was very curious because I've heard that a former student of the Sagawa Dojo was attending. Really disappointing that I couldn't.

So he was dissappointing? Love to hear about that more "Kuwashiku" next time.

By the way, yes Akuzawa was not demonstrating "Aiki" in the Daito-ryu way, but something to the way on "Aiki".

Training with him realy got me some ideas of "Aiki". One thing is if you are skipping the basics, even if you can show "Aiki" skills in a demonstration, it is not martial art. It is a kind of art but definitly not martial art.

And I am realy thinking recently, that maybe most of contemporary Aikido, Daito-ryu is skipping this basics (without recognizing this) and trying to get the fruits without the sweats.

Tomoo Yawata
Yoshinkan/Aunkai

Dan Harden
16th January 2006, 17:25
Training with him realy got me some ideas of "Aiki". One thing is if you are skipping the basics, even if you can show "Aiki" skills in a demonstration, it is not martial art. It is a kind of art but definitly not martial art.

And I am realy thinking recently, that maybe most of contemporary Aikido, Daito-ryu is skipping this basics (without recognizing this) and trying to get the fruits without the sweats.

************
Amen.
It is also why (we both know) that in its truest form- it is formless.
How is it that we can do aiki-age, aiki-sage and standing cross-arm throws and what ever "form" one wished to express it in- as well as throwing from whatever touches us ...have judoka and Aikidoka "give up" on trying to throw us or lock us out...then go box, Kick and punch, and freestyle fight?
What in fact is "it" in the first place? It has nothing, not one thing..to do with waza. I do not believe, (in fact I know) that most people have ever gotten "it." Most men are, and have always been "technique junkies." While techniques are fine, valid and needed-they are not the power many men are searching for.

FWIW, I think of Aiki as what I do with what was offfered. Kiai as what -I- decide to do. Both start and finish with good body skills and breath work.

Question
Why is it that Tenryu the sumo guy -in an unpresidented event never equaled-was told after only 3 months of training with Ueshiba.. "I have nothing else to teach you. Now you can go anywhere and one one will be able to defeat you."
What did he get?
What did he already partially have?
Muscle? Technique?
His own recollections had to do with body skills and breath training.
What was planting all those judoka with Takeda (4'-11") using little effort?
Muscle?
Technque?
Read.

Hi Rob
The only caution I would make is that once learned by Takeda - it was expressed through connection (not that it had to be) so most folks think of it as Aiki connection. Ueshiba carried on in that limited but then popular venue. Choosing not to hit or kick but to just use what was offered while he stood there-you know what I mean. Of course he was aided by guys who "did" great ukemi. Reality isn't as pretty.


The few
Why would you "assume" that everyone in the Sagawa dojo got it? Is that yours, mine or anyone elses experience in anything? Anywhere? Ten years from now lets talk about all the poeple who have come and gone who have trained with Ark in those years. Lets compare skills between them? It is a sad but true axium that most mens minds stop at the waza they are shown. Just because Ark is openly showing the body skills doesn't mean everyone will always get it. See what I mean?
What do we have at best in many of these arts; 50 men practice... 2 or 3 get it. Just how many in these arts -in anyone generation- do you think are actually shown the stuff? What else is new? :wink:
Reputation by affiliation is an old story. Don't let it happen to you. Start making the rounds a few years from now. Heck maybe even now. Go and "touch" the highest rank guys you can find. You may find you can stop many in their tracks without doing much. Anyway, write about it when you get back. I did.

Cheers..and back to lurking.
Dan

Hissho
16th January 2006, 18:59
How is it that we can do aiki-age, aiki-sage and standing cross-arm throws and what ever "form" one wished to express it in- as well as throwing from whatever touches us ...have judoka and Aikidoka "give up" on trying to throw us or lock us out...then go box, Kick and punch, and freestyle fight?
...

Dan


Dan, you keep dangling this carrot which has me really intrigued. I don't remember you getting back to me after my PM - are you coming out to Seattle for KB?

I'd love to get together and feel some of this stuff from you. John S. has all my contact info, and a backyard that we can use if the dojo isn't a suitable place. I need to hook up with him again anyway 'cuz we have each others stuff to trade, and want to work some handgun stuff together.

(No challenge intended, mind you, at least not of the unfriendly sort. I will challenge the assertion that you can do these things so easily, pending actual evidence to the contrary. I won't tank and I won't give up on throwing you or controlling you on the ground unless you make me!! :D

I am just eager to experience this in a "live" format.)

Dan Harden
17th January 2006, 16:04
HI Kit

Sorry I didn't get back. I'm home sick as a dog.
I DID reply to your PM. Do you mean on Budo seek? Anyway the heck with letters and such, ask John or any of the boys for my phone numbers or email. As for coming out, the training schedule has not been published yet so we'll have to see when.

Cheers
Dan

Hissho
17th January 2006, 16:43
Cool, buddy!

I'll get with John about the KB schedule, when it is happening and when I might come up. I don't want to disturb any of the training, but a get together one night afterwards for some rockin' and rollin' would be fun!

Looking forward to it.

Dan Harden
17th January 2006, 17:21
Ya yutz

The KB is gone by....
I couldn't make it this year because of business. Not that it mattered- I got sick as a dog by Friday anyway.

I think we can have some fun though when I come out. We usually train on the weekend so maybe we do a frid or Mond thing. Ellis and Josh might want to play as well.
Dan

Asura
17th January 2006, 21:49
[b]Why is it that Tenryu the sumo guy -in an unpresidented event never equaled-was told after only 3 months of training

What did he get?
What did he already partially have?
Muscle? Technique?


The few
Why would you "assume" that everyone in the Sagawa dojo got it? Is that yours, mine or anyone elses experience in anything? Anywhere? Ten years from now lets talk about all the poeple who have come and gone who have trained with Ark in those years. Lets compare skills between them? It is a sad but true axium that most mens minds stop at the waza they are shown. Just because Ark is openly showing the body skills doesn't mean everyone will always get it. See what I mean?


Heh heh, I have a pretty good idea why... Sumo training is less about waza and more about Kihon tanren training at heart. Though like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll get "it".

I wasn't expecting the guy to have "it", so much as I was expecting his body to be more connected. Especially since all the hype about most of the people in the Sagawa Dojo being exceptionally "strong" from their focus on basics.
After talking to him afterwards, it turns out that maybe only a few in the dojo ever focused on bodyskill training, and that most of the training was still focused on the "Gen"/Technique training, though with an emphasis with training using full resistance.

I will say that even the "average" person gets "stronger" under Ark's curriculum, just by the fact that he focuses on those basic bodyskill building exercises and almost entirely excludes technique for the first couple of years. We had this govt worker that had never done MAs before in his life, didn't really exercise, but he was comitted and did the exercises everyday at home, and in about a year his body got that "heavy" feel.
Whether or not they stop at that point, or make that "jump" needed to step into the doorway of the next level is entirely up to the individual though, like you say. I do think that the average "bar" of performance can be raised though.

Rob

Hissho
17th January 2006, 22:20
Dan-

My bad. Last I heard they were getting renovations done in preparation for, I had no idea it had already gone by. Dang!

Any time you are out is fine, I don't mind the drive up, used to do it all the time. It would be nice to see Ellis again - maybe his guys Brett and our own Aaron T would like to join in. Now THAT is a wrecking crew. If Aaron is cool with it we can use his club.

His guys are game grapplers as well.

Sorry, all, for the thread drift....

Nathan Scott
20th January 2006, 21:03
Mr. John,


I'll just say a couple things, first of all, videos lie. It doesn't look nearly as impressive as it feels. And looking at the videos...well lets just say I wouldn't be impressed myself.

I hate to state the obvious, but why did you post videos that would not impress yourself or anyone else then? I understand what you're saying about seeing being different than feeling, but those who would know what they are seeing would not be able to draw much of an opinion from the videos you posted.


Akuzawa Minoru is a contemporary practitioner who has focused his training on acquiring and developing the sophisticated body skills associated with this goal. Akuzawa Sensei studied under Sagawa Sensei for several years and continued after Sagawa's death with Kimura Sensei.

So is it "Akuzawa Minoru" or "Akuzawa Jin"? Either way, please post a date range that Mr. Akuzawa trained with Sagawa and Kimura Sensei. Check your PM's too...


The demonstrations were NOT of aiki, tho if you want to call it aiki feel free. He's trying to demonstrate the importance of "standing" and that you should need a "stance" persay to pull these things off.

Agreed on the aiki. However, the need for taking a stance in order to perform such techniques may be place where Mr. Akuzawa's techniques differ from that of Daito-ryu.


And yes his background was originally more in the ringsport of Sanda ... tho he's considering on getting our feet wet in Sanda/Muay Thai at some point.

My observation about him coming from a kicking/punching background [Sanda is an alternate name for Wushu, a type of Chinese Gung-fu] was not just a lucky guess. Mr. Akuzawa moves in a way that suggests this, which is a different way of moving from that of the movements those specializing in jujutsu, aikido and aikijujutsu display when applying such techniques.

Good luck with the seminar though. I'm sure Mr. Akuzawa has a lot to offer for those interested in mixed-style combatives and sports.

Regards,

Asura
21st January 2006, 02:03
Sup Nathan,

Sorry looks like I had a typo in my post. I meant to say that he was trying to show the importance of doing a technique "without" a stance. That is, simply doing it from "standing" in the most basic form.

The chinese reading of his name is Jin, but apparently he's called Minoru. (First name's aren't used much in Japan so I guessed when I read his character)
He was enrolled in Sagawa's Dojo from about 1995/6 to 1998(when he passed away)

Btw the whole impressive not impressive is purely a personal opinoin ;)
If it were so "dull" then I doubt I'd be getting inquiries from people outside of the TMA area ;)
Its kinda ironic that those in the sport martial venue sometimes have a better eye for this stuff than TMA people. :rolleyes:

Nathan Scott
21st January 2006, 06:32
The chinese reading of his name is Jin, but apparently he's called Minoru. (First name's aren't used much in Japan so I guessed when I read his character)
He was enrolled in Sagawa's Dojo from about 1995/6 to 1998 (when he passed away)

O.K., hopefully somebody will remember him training there over that 2 to 3 year period. I can't imagine there wouldn't be some kind of record remaining.


Btw the whole impressive not impressive is purely a personal opinoin
If it were so "dull" then I doubt I'd be getting inquiries from people outside of the TMA area. Its kinda ironic that those in the sport martial venue sometimes have a better eye for this stuff than TMA people.

If by having a "better eye" you mean that there is more of a positive reaction to your posts and videos than from those in hybrid/modern arts than those in TMA, then I agree that it is kinda ironic. BTW, I didn't say the videos were "dull", I quoted what you said yourself, which is that you wouldn't be impressed by seeing them either. If I caused you to feel defensive by agreeing with your own opinion, I apologize.

Best-O-luck to ya'll with your marketing campaign and training. Really. At least you guys are making the effort to train, which is more than can be said about most people these days.

Regards,

Asura
21st January 2006, 07:24
BTW, I didn't say the videos were "dull", I quoted what you said yourself, which is that you wouldn't be impressed by seeing them either.

Nah, I wasn't getting defensive. And I reread what I wrote, lol, that doesn't make any sense does it?? :-p
What I meant to say was, it doesn't (and I probably wouldn't be ) impressed at first glance. But if you take a second look, the way the person caves in etc, you'll find that you'll be hard pressed to duplicate the results (unless you have that body structure). Then there's all the other details like there being no "loading" of the hips, and the heel staying flat on the ground, with him being upright most of the time while delivering the kick.

Thnx for the support tho ;)

Dan Harden
22nd January 2006, 17:08
Heh heh, I have a pretty good idea why... Sumo training is less about waza and more about Kihon tanren training at heart. Though like you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll get "it".

I wasn't expecting the guy to have "it", so much as I was expecting his body to be more connected. Especially since all the hype about most of the people in the Sagawa Dojo being exceptionally "strong" from their focus on basics.
After talking to him afterwards, it turns out that maybe only a few in the dojo ever focused on bodyskill training, and that most of the training was still focused on the "Gen"/Technique training, though with an emphasis with training using full resistance.

I will say that even the "average" person gets "stronger" under Ark's curriculum, just by the fact that he focuses on those basic bodyskill building exercises and almost entirely excludes technique for the first couple of years. We had this govt worker that had never done MAs before in his life, didn't really exercise, but he was comitted and did the exercises everyday at home, and in about a year his body got that "heavy" feel.
Whether or not they stop at that point, or make that "jump" needed to step into the doorway of the next level is entirely up to the individual though, like you say. I do think that the average "bar" of performance can be raised though.

Rob

Only a few focused on the body work though…………

Hah hah…so what else is new?

I think its deeper than that though. I have stood in rooms filled with people who WERE told what to do and just didn’t do it. Examples: You know about Aiki sage and Aiki age. I stood there as a teacher said…. “Why does it have to be done with a partner? Do this at home by yourself.” How many asked why and what it was supposed to do and the how. And how many asked “How do you use this in Judo or wrestling? I did. So he told me and also told me what to think about and how to breathe. Hell I asked and did it for self preservation. While the rest of the crew was learning structure through wrist and gi grabbing-I had to go home to practice on Judo and Collegiate wrestlers. So while one set of guys were learning to stabilize and breathe using our teachers (mis-referenced) directions of engaging long muscle (fascia) through wrist grabbing, my crew was forced to learn it through stopping push/pulls, single and double leg take downs and head and body shots and general mayhem. All while learning to dish it out as well. So I asked again..and was shown ways to breathe so that the body shots didn’t even matter to me anymore. When the interest is there a lot can be gained through solo training and experimentation. I used to go back to that group all the time with "uses" for "it" that they had not seen or used. But the principles were all there..all along. It was just another way to do “it” is all. The truth is that “it” is so profound and universal that everyone can manifest "it" differently-but the body work is the same.

It is my view that most people did not, and do not, take the “home work” seriously enough. I have asked almost every guy I trained with then as well as now “Do you train solo?” Almost no one I know has said yes. I am fuming that when I asked my own guys this Sat. morning- only one was training at home alone. erggh!!!!
Ya know what the first thing I was told to do? Train alone in a swimming pool-doing certain things. Rob…....its standing! And its everything we know to do but done with exaggerated feedback. Getting up out of the pool and then back down and then out caused my family to right me off as a nut. I can promise you that this will always remain small and unheard of for one reason alone. It takes too much time.
Want an opinion? People don’t do body work cause they right it off. They don’t understand the benefits and what is supposed to be going on….on the inside. Yet the two excellent teachers I have had both did and were always open about telling others to do it. Wierd huh?

Further studies

I think the Sumo shikko work is two fold though. The arch for shikko can be used to drive a ground path one side to the other but also in a stand up form to divide and weight drop. One has more significant advantages in a grappling format over the other. But you already know this I think.
Ground work and using the same connections in different planes.
If you are in a top mount ground-and-pound; First try setting up a path from your knees to your shoulders so when he pulls he gets zip- all while your arms are free to whip him or drill. Then if he wins and he does a pull to bring you down to avoid the punches? Use the path from your knee to your arm or hand as he pulls and “ground” through him in his face or neck. It being a new definition to heaviness.
If you have a four corner top mount do the same thing one path to the other criss-crossing. You can also use the ground path to do chokes that most MMA guys can’t make work so they throw them away and won’t train them. Also to “punish” a guy while working him. With very small movement in a clinch you should be able to use a path to generate power and wind-in at the same time right? If you can- you can do a hell of a lot of damage with your head and hands using your legs and hips. Think about it.
As you have learned it isn’t a panacea to all physical dilemmas- but as I have always maintained “It is the best way to train in the world.”


Cheers
Dan

Cady Goldfield
22nd January 2006, 23:17
Hah. I train at home alone. I ran out of volunteers at the office to punch and grab... :p
Are you training next Sat. and the Sat. after? Mas is up this Friday through Feb.5.

me

Asura
25th January 2006, 04:46
[b]Ya know what the first thing I was told to do? Train alone in a swimming pool-doing certain things. Rob…....its standing! And its everything we know to do but done with exaggerated feedback. Getting up out of the pool and then back down and then out caused my family to right me off as a nut. I can promise you that this will always remain small and unheard of for one reason alone. It takes too much time.



I'm definitely all ears, I think I have an idea of what you're talkin about, but I'll have to find a Pool first to test it. (Hopefully the lifeguards will only write me off as a nut and not throw me out, lol)




Further studies

I think the Sumo shikko work is two fold though. The arch for shikko can be used to drive a ground path one side to the other but also in a stand up form to divide and weight drop. One has more significant advantages in a grappling format over the other. But you already know this I think.
Ground work and using the same connections in different planes.
If you are in a top mount ground-and-pound; First try setting up a path from your knees to your shoulders so when he pulls he gets zip- all while your arms are free to whip him or drill. Then if he wins and he does a pull to bring you down to avoid the punches? Use the path from your knee to your arm or hand as he pulls and “ground” through him in his face or neck. It being a new definition to heaviness.


If you have a four corner top mount do the same thing one path to the other criss-crossing. You can also use the ground path to do chokes that most MMA guys can’t make work so they throw them away and won’t train them. Also to “punish” a guy while working him. With very small movement in a clinch you should be able to use a path to generate power and wind-in at the same time right? If you can- you can do a hell of a lot of damage with your head and hands using your legs and hips. Think about it.
As you have learned it isn’t a panacea to all physical dilemmas- but as I have always maintained “It is the best way to train in the world.”


Thanks for the tips Dan, I've actually used the "path from the knee to your shoulders" thing several times during rolling sessions in BJJ. Works wonders...in fact with the stuff I do, I find myself getting in a position to do ground and pound over and over again.
There's also this thing I use (probably came from Yagyu shingan body work) in grappling, that I can only describe as "washing the body". Basically you run your hands (while keeping a path to your arms from your spine) along your body lines, while attacking his bodylines... its frustrated the bjj guys to no end since, there's no point where I "rest" on them. Eventually they "#$#"up and the hands slip in and allow me to go for a choke or guilottine.

My bodies finally learning to deal with the Gi :p

Have to start getting into No-Gi work though...I have a feeling it'll be a whole different ballgame.

Rob

edg176
25th January 2006, 06:01
Rob and Dan,
I have to keep this short because I'm pressed for time.

One of the things that has helped me (since my only help comes via internet) is to remember something from pilates. Allow me to explain. I am NOT saying that pilates is using the same power by the way. Every exercise has an easier version. This easier version comes from the fact that you find ways to minimize the effect of gravity on the particular joint(s)/body part you are working on. When I'm looking for the "internal" leg connection, I have been lying on my back, because that takes my weight off my legs. I've tried it in the hot tub also, and that works well.

You guys might want to take a look (if you haven't already) at the pilates aparatuses such as the reformer and the cadillac. They are ways of taking strain/gravity off of a muscle or muscle group so that you can work through the proper range of motion even if you aren't strong enough to do it on your own. Eventually they take away the support, and then, using springs, make it more difficult. For example, the shoulder stand. Until the core is strong enough, you can use the springs and cables on the reformer to support the legs. Eventually the person can do it on their own without the support.

This may all be more confusing in words than it would be if you saw it in person. And I may be totally off the mark. But I thought it might be useful to the both of you.

Dan Harden
25th January 2006, 23:10
Tim

Pilates and other core training have nothing to do with what Rob and I are discussing. Don't get me wrong. I am big on lifting and core training. I just try to not let it get in the way of my internal training. If you are not careful....VERY careful it will inhibit progress.
In other words they are not the same...not by a mile. So while I am a lifter -always have been- guess which one gives me a "true" feeling of power?
And no amount of sit ups can account for my middle.

Rob
I think I know what you mean. I do similar things if I am reading you right. Its a very "wearing a wet shirt" feel while breathing...Know what I mean? Listen. If you can connect and touch but have your hand, arm, side, hip, back whatever... moving in all directions-while grounded they will have one hell of a time feeling where -you- are.. while it aids in controlling where they are. I haven't seen it used anywhere else. It is fairly profound disruption. It also works if you are boxing and they "touch" you. After a while their arms are killing them. But fighting is fighting. Anyone can always get nailed.
I got to get out there and play with you guys. Does ark have a good sense of humor as well as a sense of experimentation with all this?
Cheers
Dan

Asura
26th January 2006, 00:46
I think I know what you mean. I do similar things if I am reading you right. Its a very "wearing a wet shirt" feel while breathing...Know what I mean? Listen. If you can connect and touch but have your hand, arm, side, hip, back whatever... moving in all directions-while grounded they will have one hell of a time feeling where -you- are.. while it aids in controlling where they are. I haven't seen it used anywhere else. It is fairly profound disruption. It also works if you are boxing and they "touch" you. After a while their arms are killing them. But fighting is fighting. Anyone can always get nailed.
I got to get out there and play with you guys. Does ark have a good sense of humor as well as a sense of experimentation with all this?


He definitely has a good sense of humor (if a bit twisted), and he's all for trying different things out. He doesn't have a "better than you" attitude either, so if you bring something new to the table, he'll definitely be all ears :)

I'd be all for getting my !!! beat by you. Be a good learning experience for me :)

Rob

jex
12th February 2006, 19:26
He definitely has a good sense of humor (if a bit twisted), and he's all for trying different things out. He doesn't have a "better than you" attitude either, so if you bring something new to the table, he'll definitely be all ears :)

I'd be all for getting my !!! beat by you. Be a good learning experience for me :)

Rob

i can do more than agree, i'm just comming back from Akusawa Minoru french seminar and i found a very cool and accessible. i dind'nt found a peculiar technique to learn, it wasn't aiki, or daito or else ,it was basis, just alignements, spine control, related forces, equalizing theses all forces to gain, obtain an centrality.
at this seminar we where about 30 people comming from a lot of discipline, from aikido to jjb tai chi and else, and i feel that everyone where happy to find something really helpfull (not easy package, you comme, you with...) but a clear and open description of what is importante whatever the practice you have.
i'd say that Akuzawa minoru teach more like an occidental than a japanese, no mysticity, no philosophique or candy speech, just the essential.

i give you a path to a video taken in London 2 days before the French seminar http://homepage.mac.com/fabrotg/FileSharing9.html "akuzawa a londres".

thank's to Asura/Rob for the constant english translation of Akusawa's saying and bravo for you'r nice level of practice too :)

bests regards

JeX

p.s. sorry for my bad english

dbotari
13th February 2006, 18:50
Did anyone happen to video tape the seminar? I'd really like to see and hear how this stuff is presented so that maybe I can grasp what the fundamental concepts are that are being taught. I have folloed all the treads on this and related topics (Ki , Kokyu etc) and must confess that while I understand what people are saying I am sure I don't understand well enough to know what to do to develop this skill. Can someone show me the secret handshake? :)


thanks,

Dan Botari

R_Garrelts
13th February 2006, 19:00
Can someone show me the secret handshake? :)

But then it wouldn't be a secret. :rolleyes:

dbotari
13th February 2006, 19:17
But then it wouldn't be a secret. :rolleyes:

You could PM it to me. I promise that I won't tell anyone! :) :look:


Thanks,

Dan Botari

R_Garrelts
13th February 2006, 23:54
You could PM it to me. I promise that I won't tell anyone!


Sorry. You'd have to feeeel this particular handshake to understand. It's really much too complicated to describe. The only way to tell whether or not someone has "it" is to actually shake their hand. But even so, I'm still pretty sure that YOU don't know anything about it based on the way you asked that question. :)

Actually, the real handshake goes like this:

Stand relaxedly in front of your partner with arm extended and allow the six-directional force to be expressed everywhere throughout your body. If this is done correctly, the ground should be present everywhere along a path from your foot to the very tip of your index finger. In order to test both the solidity of this ground path and the quality of your myofascial connections, your partner should grasp your index finger firmly and begin to pull. If your intra-abdominal pressure is maintained at a high enough level (through reverse breathing), it will become immediately noticeable to everyone in the room by a tell-tale expulsion of energy (fa-jing), the properties of which simply cannot be described in words. This awe-inspiring emission of energy is indicative of not only one's depth of understanding but also of the very utility and importance to be ascribed to these sorts of concepts.

OK. I'm shutting up now.

kimiwane
14th February 2006, 01:26
If your intra-abdominal pressure is maintained at a high enough level (through reverse breathing), it will become immediately noticeable to everyone in the room by a tell-tale expulsion of energy (fa-jing), the properties of which simply cannot be described in words.

Oooohhh!

You made me levitate, dude!!

Seriously, I just reviewed the clips. Interesting, but not like it isn't out there elsewhere.

My whole thing with this matter started when I noticed Rob's been-there-done-that attitude and heard all about the great strength he and the other guys were displaying. I thought, Wow, this bunch is eerie.

See, I had seen the clips, but I didn't know Rob was on them. And as time passed (....) I started feeling that this guy sounded less like he'd been there and done that and more like he'd never seen anything else. I started mentioning that his attitude seemed a lot less like an experienced budo man and more like a young person with five or six years' experience. Which is about what he turned out to be.

Okay. Six or seven years in Japan with a direct student of Sagawa...I'm sure that's not a loss. But still, I had the feeling of a scruffy manga street character and mentioned that. And when I looked back at the clips, I realized which one he was.

It's not that what Akuzawa has is not good or even great. It's that I don't think Asura really has the background to say whether "it" is "out there" anywhere outside his club or not.

I wonder if he met any Mochizukis in Paris? Or anyone in Shizuoka?

Now, the things Dan Harden describes seem pretty interesting...

Itten
14th February 2006, 10:16
Hello all,
I promised a few people a short report on this seminar, so here goes.
Akuzawa himself is very laid back, easy going and humorous, with a sharp edge just below the surface. he is not a traditionalist in his outer manner, with little interest in the trappings of reigi. That said, his deep insistence upon what he calls "tanren", over most people's preoccupation with waza, speaks highly, to me, at least, that he is practising real bujutsu.
The whole weekend was spent on his exercises for identifying, building and strengthening the "frame", and upon using the three axes, which particular attention of course to the central axis. This, for him, is not the same as what we in Aikido tend to refer to as center, not only tanden and chushin, but the the spine as it runs into the neck and head, with particular emphasis upon the cross that is created by the central axis and the point where the shoulder blades come together. Almost all of the exercise were painful after a short period of practise, since they all required the maintenance of tension in opposing directions though the normal musculature being used in an unusual way. I cannot yet say what effect these will have on my Aikido since they deserve some time to be invested before that judgement is made, but I certainly felt some changes in power levels even after the brief practise of 2 days. I am not going to get into an argument about what else is "out there", but I've trained 15 years Aikido, 8 years Chuen Shu Chuan, 6 years Shinkedo plus some Chen Tai Chi and ba gua, and I have not had quite such specific indications about how to arrange the opposing fields of tension as Akuzawa gives. What is interesting is that he explains far more than most teachers and shows far less of what he is capable. Mostly he would do something once, and either you saw it or you didn't.
I felt his kokyu/jin on several occasions, and yes, he definitely has something potent. Particularly his use of "shaking power" is very impressive. He is deeply rooted and almost impossible to "push", his striking power without any visible windup is potent and he moves with an efficiency that is undoubtedly the result of "tanren" and not just technical practise. His continual insistence to forget about techniques or ideas about fighting and simply learn to move as a complete unit was tested a little bit at the end with some "kicking". Those of us with some kicking experience were asked to hit the pads a few times normally and then, almost like walking through the pad whilst maintaining the frame and the axis, to lift our legs with no thoughts about kicking a target. The difference was tangible, highly destructive, penetrating force could be generated without destructive intent, "fighting without fighting", if you like.
I will vist him in Tokyo in April for some more hands on training and I'll post some more after that. Please remember that this is just personal opinions and not an advert for Akuzawa, but he has got "something" I can learn from.
P.S. i'm not about to quit Aikido but it has made me think yet again about how and why we practise waza, and some of the exercises that the older generation of Shihans did, which were far more "tanren" inclined, such as ken and jo suburi, torifune, furitama, kokyo ho, which some times become aiki taiso or waza without the deep intensity required to change body composition at deep level.

regards, Alec

Dan Harden
14th February 2006, 13:23
Hi Alec

Oh are you in for some changes!
What you just experienced IS Aikido..at the highest levels and over the heads of most you will meet. Well actually it is Daito ryu but then again it’s Koryu but when all is said and done its Chinese

Hopefully,we will be talking again in 5 years here.
One of two things will happen.
a. You will turn your back on aikido to keep exploring this wonderful stuff.
b. Or by staying you will-one by one-change people in aikido who touch you and wonder what is going on.

Why would I think you would leave? You are going to be VERY difficult to manage in a class and will be functioning on a level over most teachers you will meet.
1. You are going to find out that you are unlockable just by "being."
2. For all practical training purposes you will be unthrowable by just standing there
3. Trying to choke you or lock you will result in them being thrown
4. You will no longer be able to "offer" and sacrifice yourself in a grab or strike- so people won’t be able to find your center and throw you.
5. Your strikes will be not tolerated-you will have to go back to being disconnected and more Aikidoish to get along with some semblance of a hitting thingy…….
6. Your locks on others will be a whole new experience for them..believe me
7. Did you say you do sword? You wont beleive what it does to your sword in cutting. Remember kicking the pad?? Cut.
Anyway, overall teachers don't appreciate it, other students won't either. But the good news is you have just walked into mastering your body and rising above the arts..to *thee art*. In the years to come I would think about whom you share this with. And when you are standing at a seminar surrounded by seniors talking out of there Hats about Ki and center and breathing....... be polite-and while you are thinking internally-think *kind* on the inside- it will show on the outside.
Why do I say that? There is an abundance of confidence inherent in these skills as they grow in you. It is actually discussed in the CMA. Some guys don’t do well with it. It doesn’t bode well in the type of guy that likes hype and to show-off. You will most assuredly gain a feeling -when you watch the all falderal –of ....“What’s the point?” And when you sit there and watch a 6 th dan have to move himself in a 3’ arc to move the other guy you will want to correct him and show him a better way.
What you can make of it in actual fighting is up to you. Fighting is fighting and many guys are not up to it. But in a dojo it will be fun and an exploration for life.

Prediction
If you train this at home everyday without fail. Years from now we will be talking to a very different Alec.

Have fun
Dan

Dan Harden
14th February 2006, 13:36
These skills were never *meant* to be shared with all and sundry. They were handed out slowly as part of process in order to learn the student and his talent and personality. I don't believe that our forebears did it to create just another system of sycophants, rather they knew it was a way to safe guard making a person with “issues” into a powerful person. These skills were at the gokui level for a reason. It is going to be sad to see them ruined like most everything else we have seen. Pablum for the masses.

Second prediction
In the end If we do this, these wonderful skills are going to end up in the hands of Ron Duncan and many other “Budo professionals” I can think of who –while not really getting it much-will claim it as their own and sell it.

We stand on the shoulders of giants-who may have had a better idea of human nature and what NOT to do.

Cheers
Dan

thomas54
14th February 2006, 14:09
Thanks Alec about your review. My English abilities just lack the skills to express how I can describe the experience in Aunkai.

That said, I totally agree with you that he is teaching openly methods of TMA (and theory of TMA), which is in danger to dissappear in todays Aikido.

Generaly speaking we focus too much about the skill for the next Dan/Kyu gradings test or for the next Enbu.As you said, there should be far more focus (and explanations) about the very basic "Tanren". And this is quite different from normal sports trainings (and training methods of modern budo).

I don't think that he is (yet) the "Takeda Sokaku" or "Ueshiba Morihei" of the 21rst century but he got methods (and truly a very unique one). And he don't hesitate to teach that.
I can only say that it is a very rewarding experience.

I really looking forward to meet you in April in Tokyo at the Aunkai.

Best

thomas54
14th February 2006, 14:13
My whole thing with this matter started when I noticed Rob's been-there-done-that attitude and heard all about the great strength he and the other guys were displaying. I thought, Wow, this bunch is eerie.


Hello David

I realy think that there is a time in life to be humble enough (regardless with how long you have trained with this sensei) and to admit that there is something in this world that you can not understand.

Everyone has his own limits and his own goal.

Best

kimiwane
14th February 2006, 17:54
I realy think that there is a time in life to be humble enough (regardless with how long you have trained with this sensei) and to admit that there is something in this world that you can not understand.

Well, I am open to learning new things.

I especially know that the Chinese arts have a powerful content.

Of the group I originally trained with, I am the only one who trained for any length in taiji and apparently the only one who trained in bagua. I noticed many good results in my aikido from the Chinese practices and I am one of the very few from that original group who still trains. Of the original six, three have serious neck problems. I don't.

So I am open to these Chinese-based things. But as I said, I got "impressions" from reading Rob's posts and they all turned out to be pretty well spot-on, as far as he goes. So how could I judge aunkai? If Rob's never really been much of anywhere else or seen much of anything else, why is it for me to be humble and him to roll his eyes and strut around?

I don't have any problem with aunkai or with thinking that Akuzawa has something very unusual (for Japanese martial arts). But when someone tells me, "This is it" but he's never checked out anything else, I have to shake a little salt on it and wait and see what comes up. Specifically, I'm waiting for Rob's impressions of Tezuka sensei down in Shizuoka. Rob's a lot closer to Shizuoka than I am to Tokyo, so I think he needs to pay them a visit before he declares that he has seen it all.

kimiwane
14th February 2006, 18:08
I realy think that there is a time in life to be humble enough (regardless with how long you have trained with this sensei) and to admit that there is something in this world that you can not understand.

Another thing, I don't think I'm the only one on e-budo confused by the many strange claims all centering around this phenomenon, some related to aunkai and some not. We've had a lot of really vague descriptions but nothing on "how" this "power" is developed. Dan Harden has done the most to describe it (though, just above, Itten gave a good description.

It isn't that I just want to dismiss something I've never learned. It's more that so much noise is mixed in with whatever good information has been given, it's impossible to separate the two. (Keep in mind, I'm referring not just to this particular thread, but to the Meditation/Ki thread that was entirely hijacked by the spectcular but murkily vague claims of the six-directions people; and also, to the Aikido/Kuzushi thread, which I started to allow them to explain how their method makes kuzushi possible when no judo or aikido people can really get kuzushi because they don't have the six-directions power.

So I started the kuzushi thread and guess what? Have a look at it. The topic they were so hungry to tear into on a meditation thread suddenly fades into mist when it gets to serious discussion of a real physical phenomenon.

I also requested that you try to do a better job of explaining what aunkai is about since you have both the traditonal yoshinkan aikido and experience in aunkai. Can you make it a little clearer?

Thanks.

Asura
14th February 2006, 23:46
I will vist him in Tokyo in April for some more hands on training and I'll post some more after that. Please remember that this is just personal opinions and not an advert for Akuzawa, but he has got "something" I can learn from.
P.S. i'm not about to quit Aikido but it has made me think yet again about how and why we practise waza, and some of the exercises that the older generation of Shihans did, which were far more "tanren" inclined, such as ken and jo suburi, torifune, furitama, kokyo ho, which some times become aiki taiso or waza without the deep intensity required to change body composition at deep level.

regards, Alec

Sup Alec!

Ark says he missed you the last night at dinner, but since you're coming in April I'm sure we'll see you soon enough :)



Dave:
I'll let the rest of the testimonies that filter in speak for themselves ;)
Anyways, like I said before, posting to forums is great for organizing thoughts, but really I'm not trying to prove anything. You'll just have to come and feel for yourself someday. :)
I will get out to Shizuoka eventually and I will write a review of that when I do. :p

PS I've only been under Ark for 2.5 years, so yea I may come off as sounding half baked. But really, you'll only really be able to tell where that "confidence" comes from if you get to touch hands with myself (or ark).
So far there's been nothing but positive reviews from people that've touched hands with him (from !!!!!!ido to Aikiweb to E-budo). Just some food for thought :)

mikesigman@eart
15th February 2006, 18:56
[Sanda is an alternate name for Wushu, a type of Chinese Gung-fu] Hi Nathan:

Just for clarification, the best translation-idea for Sanda is "free-fighting", meaning that it's not a traditionally-focused form and it draws from all styles. "Wu shu" is best translated as "martial arts". There is "traditional Wu shu" and there is "contemporary Wushu" (which is the one that focuses on 'forms' and acrobatics, not actual fighting). "Gung-fu", for all practical purposes, as you used it, also means "martial arts". If someone says "I do kung fu" it's just as vague as someone in the West saying "I do martial arts".

Big towns and provinces have San-da (it comes from 'San Shou Tao') teams. Some of them are bad news. The Szechuan Sanda team had a match with a Hong Kong team a few years back and the average fight only lasted about 13 seconds for the Hong Kong team.

Anyway, FWIW.

Mike

kimiwane
15th February 2006, 19:05
I also requested that you try to do a better job of explaining what aunkai is about since you have both the traditonal yoshinkan aikido and experience in aunkai. Can you make it a little clearer?

That was for Yawata san.

And I didn't mean do a "better job" than you've already done. I meant can you explain it better, with your dual background, than others, who have done mostly aunkai?

Thanks.

thomas54
16th February 2006, 14:05
That was for Yawata san.

And I didn't mean do a "better job" than you've already done. I meant can you explain it better, with your dual background, than others, who have done mostly aunkai?

Thanks.

Sorry I didn't recognized your question until today. But your question is a valid one and also very interesting (also for me).

I don't think that I have enough time to answer your question in the next couple of days, but I will surely do that (That's a promise).

But please bear in mind that to write about that is a bit difficult for me.My english abilities and probably my ability as a martial arts practitioner is just not that good that I can give a clear cut eplanation. Everytime when words like "tendon" and "fascia" appears in the disscussion, I have to look in the dictionary and sometime ran to the nearest bookstore to take a look at a textbook of anatomy.

Best

kimiwane
16th February 2006, 15:58
Sorry I didn't recognized your question until today. But your question is a valid one and also very interesting (also for me).

I don't think that I have enough time to answer your question in the next couple of days, but I will surely do that (That's a promise).

I had a nice visit to the yoshinkan hombu in about 1992, I guess it was. Gozo sensei was not teaching, but I watched his son teach and had a nice talk with him after class. I think yoshinkan is pretty close to yoseikan, except for the sutemi waza. Anyway, few people were ever as impressive at aikido as Gozo Shioda sensei. Did you ever train with him? I was sorry to hear of his passing some time back.

I'll look forward to your comments.

Best wishes.

Mark Jakabcsin
16th February 2006, 18:48
Everytime when words like "tendon" and "fascia" appears in the disscussion, I have to look in the dictionary and sometime ran to the nearest bookstore to take a look at a textbook of anatomy.


Glad I'm not the only one doing this. :)

Are there any seminars planned in the U.S. of A. this year?

Thanks,

Mark J.

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 16:23
I had a discussion about fascia -as viable in the work we are trying to describe here- with a Nurse practitioner with a specialty M.S. While she looked at me with a raised eyebrow-she found the idea interesting to consider.
Fascia sheathes muscle as well as other things. She says it is everywhere in the body-if I got that right. It is used but not "connected" to ligaments and tendons, muscles nerves arteries viens etc. as much as “sheathing” them. To be clear; she said this idea of "connected" through fascia was odd in that the primary function of fascia is NOT to connect. It sheathes everything to allow it free movement and to prevent it from connecting or sticking to other things. Example would be to sheath nerves with fascia that are around muscle (which has its own 3 different types of fascia) but to allow the nerves movement independent of the muscle (up to about 1/2"). Adhesions and connections?.....They are injuries where fascia sticks and gets connected from one thing to another.
I asked her whether she thought you could "move" facia through the body-this led her off to healing adhesions by stretching. But the stretching was caused by large muscle groups moving passively or actively-this got me into something called ART-but the major muscle firing-which we are trying to deny here-was not my focus.
After all that , I finally got to zero down to "voluntary" movement of the fascia independently. To which I got a two word answer that stumped me.

For voluntary movement in fascia she wanted to know....."With what?

I said what do you mean? She said movement on a voluntary basis involves nerves. Fascia sheathes nerves but have no nerves in and of themselves
We got deeper into whether or not there could be some sort of marginal firing of skeletal stabilizers which led me to this:

Studies of the fine antigravity regulation in bipedal stance have also revealed a new
functional role of Golgi (1)receptors. In order to handle the extreme antigravity balancing
challenges as a biped, our central nervous system can reset the Golgi tendon receptors
and related reflex arcs so that they function as very delicate antigravity receptors (Dietz
1992). This explains that some of the leg’s balancing reactions in standing occur much
quicker than it would take for a nerve impulse from the brain to the leg. In other words:
the previously discussed and well documented role of the Golgi organs (as a feedback
mechanism about dynamic force changes during active contractions) covers only a minor
functional role of these organs. For example, little is known about the sensitivity and
related reflex function of those Golgi receptors that are located in ligaments.


(1) less than 10% of the Golgi receptors are
found wholly within tendon. The remaining 90% are located in the muscular portions of
myotendinous junctions, in the attachment transitions of aponeuroses, in capsules, as
well as in ligaments of peripheral joints (Burke & Gandeva 1990).

*Excerpt from: Schleip R 2003: Fascial plasticity – a new neurobiological explanation. Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies


Overall it seems tenuous that we can “move” fascia as an independent organ. I postulate that something else is going on with what we are actually doing while calling it fascia work. Perhaps it is the use of stabilizer muscles in conjunction with the skeletal frame as a base that fires “less” muscle mass and that is why we feel so relaxed in movement yet the opponent senses us as so “strong” in feel. With the major muscles not firing so much and out of the way the “ground current” gets supported relaxedly by the frame. Which, in turn, is why we can then manipulate its direction through a flexed opponent.
I know that my guys have told me sometims in aclinch I am so relaxed they can feel my bones moving and what feels like my skin moving on its own. I can do this at will and teach it but I'll be damned If I can say what is "actually" moving on the inside and on the surface. Add to all this falderal what breath work is doing as well. I can describe pressures, loading, holding, expelling, pushing out etc. But not what it is "actually" doing to the organs, joints, nerves, muscles and bones.

I would still love to see an MRI done on someone doing internal training to see what these “feelings” and descriptions actually cause.


Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 16:39
Another question is
Is sending out signals to our nervous system to fire in contradictory work a cause for the golgi action (tendon/ligament nodes); so that the reflex is circumventing the brain? *noted in the quote from the study in my previous post.
If they tracked the reaction to stabilize the frame to be faster then the brain/ leg connection to occur what if we can do it through training in other more refined ways. If this is true why not in six direction training? Does it free up the response time to root automatically quicker then is felt. Hence the Ki feel, hense all the wierd feeling it causes in the guy pushing or pulling.

Hmmmm
Dan

Joshua Lerner
17th February 2006, 16:41
Cheers
Dan

Hi Dan,

Good post - I suspect the same thing that you do about stabilizer muscles being more important than connective tissue in this type of training. Important in the sense that it explains the aspects of internal training that are relatively unique, whereas any talk about fascia, tendons, etc. is true for any physical activity.

What I'm *really* interested in lately is types of training that allow me to project energy, for instance in the form of "emails", *and* get a response from my partner, for instance "Dan Harden", but I've been failing miserably. Gonna have to work on my technique.

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 16:45
Ouch!!!!

I'm sorry bud
Even my guys yell at me.
I am winding down on that huge job; culminating with a big celebration with 15,000 people and a dinner tonight in Boston. I have been just buried with work. I jibber jabber here as a break. I am typing final afidavits right now.
I get "zoned" on work....what can I say
I'll call you or you me

slinking away
Dan

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 17:11
Josh

Have you ever noticed how you can get tired in this training? I mean past the exhastive "pay attention and concentrate" mind stuff to the physical? It may be the muscles we just don't think about. She gave me a name for stabilizer muscles -I have to find it- they might explain what is actually getting worked aside from the diaphragm and internal connections to it. It may explain those "layers" of relaxation we talked about. I had her feel what my diaphagm was doing and she said with that much movement you cannot help but to effect other stabilizers, organs -their attachments etc.. I asked her about organ massage and AI pressure and got that wierd look again. Sort of like ooOKAY!

Suffice to say that the diaphragm -when active- is profound but the draw on the spine and the load dump might just be a weight transfer through the frame and other organ involvement that each unto themselves anchors to muscle and soft tissue. That much wieght shift powered through gets placed in the hand-you know the punch!! or for a throw. I still am trying to find a way to "explain" closing to her. Remember that DR wrist grab/or throw exercise we were comparing to tai chi opening/ closing? Pretty hard to talk about that with frame and weight transfer. It's not as clear when done so small. Again it begs..what is firing and displacing? The ground path is key to the transfer but there is more going on in the body lines.

I think another interesting observation is the latent or anticipatory feel. We went through a discussion of internal strength that may *combine stabilizers with normal muscle weight transfer. I gave her my early training tips for "sneezing and crying, orgasm, shakig when you are freezzing and trying not to fall as in losing balance. All of which activate (in itself an interesting phrase) involuntary internal responses that may key those *combinations* of stabilizers and the stomach/hip/leg. The three biggies.
She noted that those examples of involuntary response are some of the most powerful contractions in the body.

Cheers
me

Joshua Lerner
17th February 2006, 17:52
Josh

Have you ever noticed how you can get tired in this training? I mean past the exhastive "pay attention and concentrate" mind stuff to the physical? It may be the muscles we just don't think about.

Yeah, I've noticed how fatiguing it is, but not in a lactic acid/just-ran-a-marathon sense. It seems like the more I practice it, and the more relaxed I get, the easier it is to evoke the sensations, but doing that kind of training for a good length of time leaves me feeling really good but drained at this point. Doing more vigorous aerobic work for the same amount of time energizes me. I'm trying to figure out how to balance and integrate the two. I used to think it was easy, but the deeper you get into it, the more ... interesting ... the challenges become.




I asked her about organ massage and AI pressure and got that wierd look again. Sort of like ooOKAY

You mean that look that everyone gives you when you start telling a story again for the fifth time? I'd think you were used to seeing it by now. [/kissy face]



I think another interesting observation is the latent or anticipatory feel. We went through a discussion of internal strength that may *combine stabilizers with normal muscle weight transfer. I gave her my early training tips for "sneezing and crying, orgasm, shakig when you are freezzing and trying not to fall as in losing balance. All of which activate (in itself an interesting phrase) involuntary internal responses that may key those *combinations* of stabilizers and the stomach/hip/leg. The three biggies.
She noted that those examples of involuntary response are some of the most powerful contractions in the body.

That feel is really interesting to me too. How you get it seems to be a spectrum. On the more physical side, you have the way Akuzawa teaches standing, which is to give the body no choice but engage the contradictory muscles, via 1) awkward postures that invoke some involuntary "balancing" responses and 2) using larger mobilizer muscles to (apparently) "drag along" the stabilizers in order to induce the correct feeling. Rob - correct me if I'm wrong on that.

On the more subtle side, you've got some Yiquan teachers who recommend you completely and totally relax and just utilize visualization, with the idea being that even just imagining responding to forces causes the stabilizer muscles to fire.

And some in-between approaches - I just received a set of DVDs on Yiquan by Bo Jiacong that Mike Sigman recommends, and it was interesting to see how much movement they use. When Bo describes imagining trying to move a tree being held between his arms, he says to relax but you can see his body move. He also seems to use the contradictory forces in sequences, or at least in sets of just two or maybe four at a time, as opposed to trying to invoke all of them at once.

Personally, I gravitate towards the more relaxed method, but I'm experimenting with Akuzawa's excercises. It seems like the important thing is to evoke that weird internal feeling.

j

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 18:58
Yeah, I've noticed how fatiguing it is, but not in a lactic acid/just-ran-a-marathon sense. It seems like the more I practice it, and the more relaxed I get, the easier it is to evoke the sensations, but doing that kind of training for a good length of time leaves me feeling really good but drained at this point. Doing more vigorous aerobic work for the same amount of time energizes me. I'm trying to figure out how to balance and integrate the two. I used to think it was easy, but the deeper you get into it, the more ... interesting ... the challenges become. j


Yup! That is exactly what I mean between the two. I leave the gym feeling great and pumped I train in the morning and at night doing solo work and I feel drained.... with one caveate. When I am stressed (as in all the time these days) the solo training takes it away- lifting won't. Solo training causes us to focus so much that its like doing kata. You're zoned. so I think in a mental/physical sense their inseparable. Hence tiring.


That feel is really interesting to me too. How you get it seems to be a spectrum. On the more physical side, you have the way Akuzawa teaches standing, which is to give the body no choice but engage the contradictory muscles, via 1) awkward postures that invoke some involuntary "balancing" responses and 2) using larger mobilizer muscles to (apparently) "drag along" the stabilizers in order to induce the correct feeling. Rob - correct me if I'm wrong on that.

On the more subtle side, you've got some Yiquan teachers who recommend you completely and totally relax and just utilize visualization, with the idea being that even just imagining responding to forces causes the stabilizer muscles to fire. j

Blending
Blending the two...hmmm. I guess I haven't decided on that either. The solo work is the staple, but even there there are more physical ones than others. I don't know where I would be without Shikko though. For length training and leg strength it rocks. For contradictory work its the king as well. There is sooo much in there to dig into. The opening/ closing contradictions on one leg, the spine capture juuuust before you let go.......down. There is a wieght drop shut-off that is the balls for jujutsu work blah blah blah. But to answer your strength vs relaxed. It builds thighs! But that is still solo work.
There are many ways to train in a physical sense that activate the stabilizers more energetically for strength and enhance the bodies connectedness. I wonder if after all they afford a shortcut or a dangerous side root to nowhere without proper training. Don't you think they could be better? Even for overall health and stamina as in a physical culture thing than just relaxed training?



And some in-between approaches - I just received a set of DVDs on Yiquan by Bo Jiacong that Mike Sigman recommends, and it was interesting to see how much movement they use. When Bo describes imagining trying to move a tree being held between his arms, he says to relax but you can see his body move. He also seems to use the contradictory forces in sequences, or at least in sets of just two or maybe four at a time, as opposed to trying to invoke all of them at once.

Personally, I gravitate towards the more relaxed method, but I'm experimenting with Akuzawa's excercises. It seems like the important thing is to evoke that weird internal feeling.j

Yea but you ganola-crunchy North Westeners like to be relaxed. Every day is a rainy, stay indoors, get under the covers day. No wonder you like the relaxed approach. Makes me wonder why you don't have a constant baby boom. Maybe there just isn't *enough* coffee.
Seriously I do the relaxed and workout approach every day in different degrees. The big workout approach every other or just twice a week.

Here's a theory that I have been playing with for years and we have been bandying about. I believe the sensation if it mental/physical can be enhanced through resistance after garnering it first;solo. So we/me have worked it to be viable in jujutsu and P/K work. How did we do it? Through resistence training. For me it incorporates actual fighting skills and a blend of internal work together.
I have no idea...truly...no idea whether you can get there (lets call it the zero balance work) with just solo work. Its something I need others to address. Add to that I don't think I am "there" yet either. I hope I never get there. I hope it keeps getting better as I get older. Seriously. Do you see that for your self?

Me

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 19:18
I couldn't edit

Not for you Josh.......

While overall I like the approach we use for a MMA way of thinking and incidentally the one Rob has outlined here or there as I think it is more viable. This training- in a MA sense can be used for anything; Judo, Aikido, jujutsu, Karate etc. But that is not everyones goal either-judging by some of the CMA'ers I have met. I recognize that and don't think one approach or goal is superior to the other-its a choice.

Cheers
Dan

Itten
17th February 2006, 19:33
hello joshua,
I'm also working at the moment with some of the exercises that Akuzawa uses and have begun thinking about the hitoemi posture in relation to how gravity affects the stabilizer muscles and the internal proprioceptive responses cause when you manipulate your balance away from using the leg muscles as the sole stabilizers. I relate this to the exercise Shintaijiku where the emphasis begins on the vertucal then switches to the horizontal then back again. this appears to generate a burning sensation in between the shoulder blades when the tension is maintained, which reoccurs some hours later. This is not ordinary muscle cramp and feels to be spreading up and down the spine.
any thoughts on this?

Joshua Lerner
17th February 2006, 20:50
Yup! That is exactly what I mean between the two. I leave the gym feeling great and pumped I train in the morning and at night doing solo work and I feel drained.... with one caveate. When I am stressed (as in all the time these days) the solo training takes it away- lifting won't. Solo training causes us to focus so much that its like doing kata. You're zoned. so I think in a mental/physical sense their inseparable. Hence tiring.


Roger that.


I don't know where I would be without Shikko though. For length training and leg strength it rocks. For contradictory work its the king as well. There is sooo much in there to dig into.

I'm going to have to get someone to show me how to do it properly one day, because all of you guys keep talking about it and I am really intrigued. I also haven't set up a multipurpose sumo slap/suburi post yet, but it's on my to-do list.



There are many ways to train in a physical sense that activate the stabilizers more energetically for strength and enhance the bodies connectedness. I wonder if after all they afford a shortcut or a dangerous side root to nowhere without proper training. Don't you think they could be better? Even for overall health and stamina as in a physical culture thing than just relaxed training?

[snip]

Here's a theory that I have been playing with for years and we have been bandying about. I believe the sensation if it mental/physical can be enhanced through resistance after garnering it first;solo. So we/me have worked it to be viable in jujutsu and P/K work. How did we do it? Through resistence training. For me it incorporates actual fighting skills and a blend of internal work together.


I basically agree, with the caveat that I don't have the fighting experience you have.

I suppose it is a question of just how efficient you really want to be. I've either personally seen, or seen videos, of some great martial artists who had amazing power and skills but looked really out of shape, overweight, etc. Especially with some of the well-known CMA guys. It seems possible to train so efficiently so that you can do amazing things without expending much energy, while ending up not very physically healthy in other ways.

Our bodies seem to require a certain amount of inefficiency and friction in order to stay healthy. Ellis once mentioned that Taiji guys don't seem to live longer than anyone else, but Xingyi and Bagua guys do. If that's true, maybe it's because you need some of the tensions that Xingyi and Bagua induce in the body. I know that when I did some Bagua, it felt physically very satisfying in a way that even good Taijiquan doesn't. The slight twisting tensions seems to really connect things and kind of wring your tissues out like a sponge.

What I'm trying to figure out at the moment is how to do the more physical training in such a way as to not interfere with the subtle training, so I'm very sympathetic to what you are talking about in terms of physical culture. What seems to be happening so far in my personal training is that things kind of swing back and forth in cycles of a few weeks at a time. I'm doing all the training most days, but for a while the internal/relaxed stuff will feel more prevalent and the external stuff feels more internal, but then it can flip-flop for a few weeks and the external training will feel more prevalent. Each flip-flop seems to change things. The problem is after a few flips or flops some of my previous assumptions get undermined, so it's kind of like starting over a few times a year.

This is why, incidentally, I'm so interested in things like shikko, Akuzawa's stuff, and various excercises with long weapons. Chen Taijiquan, if you don't know already, has a number of excercises using staff and spear for developing that kind of physical framework and power you are talking about. I've only seen them and haven't learned them formally, but the idea is similar enough to other things I've seen to make up various suburi and other excercises. If I had the time, I'd get back into some more resistive body work, or even take up judo.


I have no idea...truly...no idea whether you can get there (lets call it the zero balance work) with just solo work. Its something I need others to address. Add to that I don't think I am "there" yet either. I hope I never get there.

I suspect you can get far, but not really far enough, with just solo work. I do think that if you do solo work *correctly* for long enough, and then do resistance training, the solo work will only benefit you. But I, too, don't really know, because when I reflect on it I realize that when I started doing solo work I had already done Aikido for twelve years, including a good amount of high-resistance Iwama style (yes, I know what you think of Aikido), so it's all been very back and forth for me. I'm really itching to start testing things out again outside of my navel-gazing practices. Maybe even . . . learn how to fight? Push hands with various friends helps some. You need to start flying out here more often.


I hope it keeps getting better as I get older. Seriously. Do you see that for your self?

Absolutely.

Joshua Lerner
17th February 2006, 20:56
hello joshua,
I'm also working at the moment with some of the exercises that Akuzawa uses and have begun thinking about the hitoemi posture in relation to how gravity affects the stabilizer muscles and the internal proprioceptive responses cause when you manipulate your balance away from using the leg muscles as the sole stabilizers. I relate this to the exercise Shintaijiku where the emphasis begins on the vertucal then switches to the horizontal then back again. this appears to generate a burning sensation in between the shoulder blades when the tension is maintained, which reoccurs some hours later. This is not ordinary muscle cramp and feels to be spreading up and down the spine.
any thoughts on this?

Hi Alec,

I think I know what you are talking about, though this may be slightly different. Something similar happens when I do even some relaxed standing excercises with visualization of pushing against contradictory forces. It usually starts as a warm or mildly burning sensation in the low back and can travel up the spine, or come in waves. It feels like it is the small, deep muscles of the spine being activated, though everything feels very relaxed. I haven't done much with the shoulderblade crunching stuff that Akuzawa teaches yet, but I'm going to start playing with it.

You wouldn't happen to know where there are videos of the shintaijiku or other excercises online, would you? The old place where Rob posted them doesn't have them anymore.

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 21:17
Josh

The "shoulder blade" stuff we have to talk about. It is essential to many other things that you'd like and get a rise out of. But it's like the punch. When should it be fixed and forward and the back does the work or when should it be moving when you are doing say; ground work. And all thats different from what Alec was discussing anyway.

The fighting aspects are-in my opinion where it's at for health too. Its just tough to say in a mixed crowd, and you now how sensitive MA guys are. :rolleyes:
You know the shape I'm in. But there really is no comparison from one to the other for body work. and it gets confusing for those who feel it anyway. The two;external muscle and internal are different as we discussed. I think the difference can be a positive asset in fighting and not a negative. Mass is a fairly good thing if used correctly and its better as muscle than fat.
You already know it isn't muscle hitting you that hard- look at what you did to me in just a short time. I think for personal reasons or goals the fighting aspects make a better athlete and abetter more balanced person as well but it also gives a fellow more of an edge for conflict. Aside from all that real *banging* which most don't like and don't have a drive for isn't needed anyway. There are levels that are still valid.
Its the mental challenge as well as the physical that keeps us both intrigued. Its a hell of deep well to draw from eh?


Dan

Ron Tisdale
17th February 2006, 21:21
Guys, this is turning into one of those "keeper" threads.

Dan, I have got to get up there one of these days....

Best,
Ron

Joshua Lerner
17th February 2006, 21:31
Josh

The "shoulder blade" stuff we have to talk about. It is essential to many other things that you'd like and get a rise out of. But it's like the punch. When should it be fixed and forward and the back does the work or when should it be moving when you are doing say; ground work.

Yeah, we need to talk (or post, or whatever). Can't at the moment because I need to go get ready for a client, but the shoulder blade thing has been on my mind alot recently and I think it will be a good conversation.

Dan Harden
17th February 2006, 21:33
The heck with the personal stuff I'll call ya.

I am more interested in a few thoughts on my post about the golgi response, and how it is faster then the brain-to-local area nerve transmission time, fascia moving or not moving, stabilizers and whatever moves you to talk about what moves you :rolleyes:

Thanks Ron
I dont teach anymore though. I haven't since I walked out of the Judo Dojo in 97 without notice. I don't advertise, not in the phone book and don't charge money. I turn people to local aikido or Judo schools and just train with a group I have been training with for years. I'm too interested in training to have to teach more half-hearted searchers. I had a 116 people come and go in the last 10 years. They said it was too rough. Plenty of places for them to go and take up mat space.
Cheers
Dan

R_Garrelts
17th February 2006, 23:23
Thanks Ron
I dont teach anymore though. I haven't since I walked out of the Judo Dojo in 97 without notice. I don't advertise, not in the phone book and don't charge money. I turn people to local aikido or Judo schools and just train with a group I have been training with for years. I'm too interested in training to have to teach more half-hearted searchers. I had a 116 people come and go in the last 10 years. They said it was too rough. Plenty of places for them to go and take up mat space.
Cheers
Dan

That's great, but, if your only response to someone who actually wants to see and feel this stuff in action is to retreat back into your secret clubhouse and lock the door, why spend so much time yakking about it on the internet?

Can... almost... reach... the... carrot.

I suppose I should just be thankful none of my teachers exhibit similar behavior.

Dan Harden
18th February 2006, 02:16
That's great, but, if your only response to someone who actually wants to see and feel this stuff in action is to retreat back into your secret clubhouse and lock the door, why spend so much time yakking about it on the internet?

Can... almost... reach... the... carrot.

I suppose I should just be thankful none of my teachers exhibit similar behavior.

Why thank you so much Mr Garrelts. I can think of several *positive* reasons or conclusions you may have opted for as to why I do what I do- but just now I'll let you remain convinced in your unfounded, uninformed, poorly expressed, negative view of someone whom you do not know and have not even had the courtesy to ask.
As for a show and tell to anyone and everyone who wants to see and feel? I did that for the better part of the nineties. In an open Dojo. Ever thought of just asking for an expanded answer? even just...why is that Dan?
Maybe not.

Why don't you try asking why instead of attacking someone you do not know. If you are frustrated by me or others try asking questions or simply saying so -Like David Orange - its a more experienced course of action. You may learn something about the person you are wondering about and reach an entirely different conclusion. Better still in so doing you act like a budo man.
And ...you may even make friends.
As for dangling carrots... since I have seen you on these many threads relating to this very topic- perhaps you failed to see this is taught- apparently in several dojo. So just ask.

Gents, adding negative comments like that to these discussions is counter productive and helps no one. Take it to P.M if you please.

In the mean time I'll talk shop with whomever I chose.
Have a great day. No offense offered to you and none taken
Dan

P/S/ to the several guys who have written P.M.'s to me everywhere- give me a few days I am planning on getting back to you on the different boards.

kimiwane
18th February 2006, 03:49
If you are frustrated by me or others try asking questions or simply saying so -Like David Orange - its a more experienced course of action.

Well, since you mention it, Dan...

I would like to try to narrow this down a bit further. From what I saw in some of the aunkai clips, what you're really talking about is a kind of chi gung, isn't it? And then you concentrate in contradictory directions while holding the stances?

Asura specifically mentioned bagua single-palm change and pichuan from xing yi as ways to develop "this skill". Of course, being experienced in both those and some pretty hardcore sword training with Mochizuki sensei personally, I felt like I knew a little about tanren development.

And while I still have never done six-direction contradictory tension exercises while doing chi gong, I did feel like I had a sense of the idea.


Gents, adding negative comments like that to these discussions is counter productive and helps no one. Take it to P.M if you please.

Well, frankly, I just went through the entire ki thread and the entire kuzushi thread taking the rudest and crudest of constant attitudes from Mike and Asura: challenges, derogatory remarks about my sensei, etc., constant claims that I didn't know how to get kuzushi and so on. So I think some of the energy we have in this thread is like peripheral excitation of a nerve, overloaded by stimulation of a nearby nerve.

Both those rudivators accused me repeatedly of dodging a technical question on a meditation thread, but they both faded out of sight when I opened the thread they wanted to discuss. Which is similar to how they have handled "information" on "this skill".

I was browbeaten to explain things in scientific terms, then I had to give the Chinese terms, then in six-direction terms, but neither of them ever came out and said, "It's chi gung standing where you concentrate on the six cardinal directions simultaneously."

The closest I saw asura come to that was saying in Japanese kana the same thing he had already said in English, which was that you had to feel it to understand it. But he didn't have to feel my aikido to understand it. He bet me money. So I opened the kuzushi thread. I know I have an edgy temper and a colorful vocabulary and a twitchy BS meter. But I've been able to get on a pretty good level with a lot of people on these boards and I've even gotten on good terms with some people I started out on bad terms with. Sure, a young man can be skilled, but not so much that you can't call him on being "chuutohanpa" or that you have to let his bad behavior pass.

I don't expect to go uncalled on crazy statements I might make from time to time, so I don't see why anyone should get more offended by my remarks to them than I get by theirs to me.

A lot of this particular post is also because of the closing of the kuzushi thread, a bit too soon, I thought, but since Peter said he basically planned to reopen it at some point, I was waiting...

But then I saw your post and also wanted to ask some more about your training relative to kuzushi. In particular, I guess someone asked what if the "other guy" also has "the skill". How do you get kuzushi then?

I would like to get the kuzushi thread back open if, indeed, we can keep the topic to kuzushi and the real matter--getting the other guy to fall, not derogatory remarks and challenges.

It seems most Americans I've trained with have always said I resist too much. But little old Kyoichi Murai, less than five feet tall, under 100 pounds, said "You fall down too easily."

He could throw pretty much anyone at will and he's still down there in Shizuoka, from what I hear. Just a little influence from a real old master like that is worth a lot. I never demeaned Akuzawa and I don't like someone demeaning people like Mochizuki and Murai senseis.

How about a comment on my Aikido Comes from Babies thread?

Have a great weekend.

David

R_Garrelts
18th February 2006, 05:12
Why thank you so much Mr Garrelts. I can think of several *positive* reasons or conclusions you may have opted for as to why I do what I do- but just now I'll let you remain convinced in your unfounded, uninformed, poorly expressed, negative view of someone whom you do not know and have not even had the courtesy to ask.
As for a show and tell to anyone and everyone who wants to see and feel? I did that for the better part of the nineties. In an open Dojo. Ever thought of just asking for an expanded answer? even just...why is that Dan?
Maybe not.

You have my sincerest apologies. What I wrote wasn't really intended as an attack, just an expression of my own frustration (a frustration that apparently others are also feeling). And actually, I don't know if you recall, but I have contacted you before about training, so saying that I "have not even had the courtesy to ask" is not really correct.

Anyway, though, I hope the cynicism and sarcasm that has shown through in my last (and perhaps other) post(s) has not damaged the possibility of training together someday. Please do continue to contribute; I know many here enjoy your posts, as do I. Have a good weekend.

Best Regards,

aikiducky
18th February 2006, 22:07
Hi everyone, I think this is my first post on this forum, although some of you might know me from over on Aikiweb... I was at the seminar in Paris last weekend and I thought this would be the place to post about it. :) Too bad I didn't ask people's names when I was there, now I can't connect names with faces here.

I felt really bummed at the seminar, lol, I thought I'd had some of this stuff figured out already. :D It was very interesting. I'm not going to try to describe the exercises, I'm really hoping there will be a video of the weekend though. Rob's kinda annoyingly enthusiastic sometimes but he can push me and I can't push him so that's pretty straightforward. I should mention that I'm an Alexander Technique teacher IRL, if there's one thing I can do it's relax. Relaxation isn't it IMO, at least not all of it. The way it felt like to me was, the exercises helped create a (to me) extreme contraction especially in the back muscles and the ones under the shoulder blades, which pressed the spine together and glued the shoulder blades to the rib cage, to form a much sturdier structure than you'd normally have, and a more direct connection to the legs and to the ground through the legs.

I showed the exercises to our aikido group here and we played a bit with the feeling in techniques as well. I notice that my strikes felt more powerful already, and some people really could use this feeling to become very difficult to throw (for me at least). There's definitely interest to go on with this stuff. Which is why I'm really hoping for a video, it's a pity if we have to go just by my poor memory...

Joshua Lerner
19th February 2006, 00:51
I should mention that I'm an Alexander Technique teacher IRL, if there's one thing I can do it's relax. Relaxation isn't it IMO, at least not all of it. The way it felt like to me was, the exercises helped create a (to me) extreme contraction especially in the back muscles and the ones under the shoulder blades, which pressed the spine together and glued the shoulder blades to the rib cage, to form a much sturdier structure than you'd normally have, and a more direct connection to the legs and to the ground through the legs.

Hi Pauliina,

Thanks for posting about your experience with Akuzawa and Rob. Your point about the shoulder blades is very interesting, as I'm sure Dan would agree.

In the past year, I've been experimenting with how I do silk-reeling excercises, and have found that in order to really be able to transfer power smoothly from the spine to the arms while relaxing the arms and shoulders, I need to engage the deep muscles under the scapula and in the armpit, such as what I am assuming are the rotator cuff muscles and possibly the pectoralis minor around the front. I think some of the pec minor attaches to the scapula.

Dan once showed me a way of striking that utilized alot of motion through the scapula, which seems on the surface to contradict what you are saying, but I think you are all pointing towards the same idea. Mainly, most "internal" martial artists talk about not using the shoulders, but I think what happens is that most people are simply using them incorrectly. You need to use them properly, which involves those deep muscles that attach around the scapula and pull it forward around the ribcage, as opposed to relying on the deltoids to transfer power between the arm and torso. I also think that is what people mean in Chinese arts when they say to strike from the back - that feeling of closing off the front of the body is due mostly to the scapula being pulled forward, engaging the important shoulder stabilizers.

What seems to partly define what Akuzawa is doing is that he utilizes broad tensions across large parts of the body so that beginners don't have to have the awareness needed to isolate the few important areas that actually need to be worked on. Note how most people who do those excercises say that after a while you need much less muscular tension in order to isolate the feelings.

Methods that utilize wave or spiraling motions through the scapula seem to work and be teachable to people who are able to feel and move their scapula independently, and who are therefore able to bypass relying solely on the deltoids, but are probably much less usefull to most people who don't yet have that level of body awareness and control. So in one sense, Akuzawa's method seems to be more of a lowest-common-denominator method, but in a positive way - many more people can probably benefit from it.

P Goldsbury
19th February 2006, 03:41
A lot of this particular post is also because of the closing of the kuzushi thread, a bit too soon, I thought, but since Peter said he basically planned to reopen it at some point, I was waiting...

But then I saw your post and also wanted to ask some more about your training relative to kuzushi. In particular, I guess someone asked what if the "other guy" also has "the skill". How do you get kuzushi then?

I would like to get the kuzushi thread back open if, indeed, we can keep the topic to kuzushi and the real matter.

David

Hello Mr Orange,

I have split the kuzushi thread into two (the Best and the Rest) and reopened the threads.

Best wishes,

Dan Harden
19th February 2006, 07:49
Dan once showed me a way of striking that utilized alot of motion through the scapula, which seems on the surface to contradict what you are saying, but I think you are all pointing towards the same idea. Mainly, most "internal" martial artists talk about not using the shoulders, but I think what happens is that most people are simply using them incorrectly. You need to use them properly, which involves those deep muscles that attach around the scapula and pull it forward around the ribcage, as opposed to relying on the deltoids to transfer power between the arm and torso. I also think that is what people mean in Chinese arts when they say to strike from the back - that feeling of closing off the front of the body is due mostly to the scapula being pulled forward, engaging the important shoulder stabilizers.

Uhm......Josh don't take this in any negative fashion. What I showed you was a step toward other things and it stemmed off of what we had been talking about that day with systema (hyper fluidity in motion) VS a Sumo strike (more connected) remember the tea house being moved when I hit it?
What I *meant* to convey that time was ONE way to use the shoulders to transfer power with an internal connectedness that prevents the impact force from being transfered back to the body-hyperfluidity. Then another with a different more connected feel, that was obviously (to me anyway) more powerful and done all internally.
The fluid method was the easiest way to get my initial ideas across to you since you already had root,while still delivering knock-out power-which you ..uhm..felt. Then later...so did I. :rolleyes:
The *better* way to deliver it more in line with contradictory work and a connected feel was the sumo strikes -which can be punches at rapid speed believe me. Your power will increase markedly when we continue to train and I can show both more clearly. The one that fixes the shoulder blades -lets say forwad-(I call it spreading your wings) and the power comes from your back, the other more fluid less powerful but can still deliver knock-out power. There are reasons for the two *different * methods. Anyway it is partly why I get perturbed when people say there is only one way. The systema thing was discussed in a whole other thread where the "reviewer* was panning the systema work and even said the equivalent that the guys were being hoodwinked or some such. Boxers and MMA guys can and have knocked people out cold with good external skills, and also good rooted power with external work combined.

Just want to clarify when someone quotes what they think I said or meant. There is a connectedness that uses a fluidity of the diaphragm to the spine to a fixed frame for power and power resistance. And there is a connectedness that uses a fluidity of the diaphragm to the spine to a flexible frame to open and close vertically for other reasons and uses more in line with jujutsu. It is less powerful BTW but more fluid for some fighting aspects. Something I think Rob is discovering mixing it up with MMA guys
The rest ..as they say... should be imparted verbally in instruction.

Isolation
Interesting choice of words. for the most part I try to avoid isolation. For others as in certain jujutsu and weapons work it is just the ticket. If we do stand up jujutsu work or go to ground I can show you both movements.

There are certain aspects of Daito ryu where you would be rooted and internally connected and then voluntarily isolate (more appropriately referred to as to let go) then re-connect and feed. Your momentary- loss of power- is exactly what you wanted your opponent’s body to feel. It has an upsetting effect on the opponents focus or intent. So sometimes letting go of your power then activating it is good martial sense. This is often referred to in elbow-power work in JMA. But the source of your power *re-gained*–as in what we have been discussing Josh-is same/same.

I think a general rule is;
The more you isolate/ the less-power, the less-connected. But by choice you may give up some things to gain others; in *actual* fighting.

But overall; the more-connected/ the more-power


Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
19th February 2006, 14:16
You have my sincerest apologies. What I wrote wasn't really intended as an attack, just an expression of my own frustration (a frustration that apparently others are also feeling).
r. Garrelts

No Problem And thanks. Thats why I took it in stride and offered no ill will in return. I appreciate that type of honesty in response though...truly. We're all struggling to get better and there really is no excuse for us- who are all a bit strange to be practicing this stuff in the modern era -to alienate one another.
The one point you made which cuts to heart of the matter is frustration. But to be fair it goes both ways. My take on the matter is this. Internal work is the highest order of martial arts. It is not typically shown and few talk about it. I have danced around it and talked about what it was capable of since the net opened. I never talk about what to do or how to do things on the net with specifics though. I think these things should only be shared by a relationship with a teacher. If we start giving it away to people who will not train daily, then in the end, even these skills-will cease to have any real meaning. People will know in part because they practice in part. Next will come the hucksters and showmen. Its happened before
I would hate to see these skills reduced that way having been trusted to the likes of us.
As for open teaching being just swell. You hear that from some Judo and Aikido guys all the time. I would love to hear anyone make a case that Aikido and Judo have actually improved- over time- through all this *open* teaching.
I think all we have proved is that we will take just about anything and fast-track it to oblivion.

Talking about these skills with people who train them is great shop talk though. And through the Chinese arts we can have a common language that admittedly may, or may not, convey specifics or even skill levels, but it aids discussion to get the point across.
Maybe Rob talks through his enthusiasm and to try to drum up interest and see if it is out there with others.
Maybe Mike-even though he ticks people off –is really trying to fish for information (he already has) that may show how pervasive this training is in other arts. Maybe he isn't a bad egg either- his style just irritates most guys. IMO Part of his rationale was to challenge or be purposefully challenging to get people to tip their hands. It’s a form of research. He could “say” what he does but then everyone would just say “Yes we do that to” and his words and search would be a waste. I am assuming the best. That he does know something, but I hope he is nicer in person than on the net.

So yea…. I understand the frustration. But I am trying to be as open as I can when I do talk about it, even though I won’t talk about the details. And In my opinion none of this is unbeatable or unstoppable against a seriously good fighter. But I also think that any fighter in the world in anything, anywhere; could use this bodywork training and improve many aspects of *his* individual game.

Josh et al
As for fascia work and the golgi response. Think about what that would mean for firing at a rate faster then the brain to body time…..happening at the root of tendon and ligament connection to stabilizers and more? What if what we are doing fires them without flexation of large muscle groups and that is what we are trying to teach and call fascia work? Or at least accounting for that electric feel inside.
As well, when someone is pushing on us and they get that cotton over steel feel what part of it is the agreed structure to ground and the other a golgi response in ligaments that allow minimal movement of stabilizer muscle and with the skin just being a shock pad that the hand transfers force through in a very loose feel.


David I’ll write later.


Cheers
Dan

Joshua Lerner
19th February 2006, 15:35
Uhm......Josh don't take this in any negative fashion. What I showed you was a step toward other things and it stemmed off of what we had been talking about that day with systema (hyper fluidity in motion) VS a Sumo strike (more connected) remember the tea house being moved when I hit it?
What I *meant* to convey that time was ONE way to use the shoulders to transfer power with an internal connectedness that prevents the impact force from being transfered back to the body-hyperfluidity. Then another with a different more connected feel, that was obviously (to me anyway) more powerful and done all internally.

Not a problem - I know that's only one thing you were trying to get across. Taijiquan as I've learned it has methods of transferring power that ignore any talk about the scapula completely, so I know about other methods. I was only used to using them to push and resist pushes, not to strike. Which is why I was (and still am, for that matter) so excited about the moving the scapula thing - it was a new way of connecting things together that I hadn't seen before. In the other methods of pushing that I've learned, the scapula aren't *purposely* fixed to the torso with muscular tension or held in any certain position, but they do stay put. I've been trying out those methods with with the no-inch punch just a little bit to compare them. Got some work to do, though.

What I would say, and the point I was trying to get across, is that the fixed-scapula method that Pauliina was talking about, the fluid-scapula method you showed me (which is only one aspect of how you think about the shoulders, I know), and now that we're talking about it, the ignore-the-scapula method all have something in common, mainly that they are all calling on the less-obvious shoulder stabilizers.

I've also been playing recently with knife-throwing. Without many training partners for the internal stuff, it seems to be a good way to get feedback on body mechanics and power generation. Applying the various methods of using or not using the scapula, using fluid waves vs. shorter connected power, etc., has been very interesting.

There are dangers in using words like "isolation", so it may have been a bad choice on my part. Perhaps "differentiation" would have been a better word to use. I was using it in terms of a stage of training, not as a fighting strategy or technique. Most people that I've seen start learning Taijiquan start off with huge parts of their bodies "stuck" together in maladaptive ways, and they need to go through what is usually a several year period where things get "unstuck". For instance, learning to differentiate between the hips and the waist. Or, given what we are talking about, differentiating between the torso and the shoulder girdle. When I stopped doing aikido and started taijiquan, it was several years of rooting out tensions and stuck areas and discovering how much movement there actually is in my body that I hadn't ever noticed before.

This stage of differentiation produces a kind of floppy hyperfluidity for a while, and it is where lots of people stop in their development. I know I did for a while. If they have a good teacher, or are lucky enough to get pounded on a little and shown a few key points, they then start to reconnect everything in ways they wouldn't have been able to when they were still stuck together.

That's what I meant by "isolation".

Joshua Lerner
19th February 2006, 16:08
Josh et al
As for fascia work and the golgi response. Think about what that would mean for firing at a rate faster then the brain to body time…..happening at the root of tendon and ligament connection to stabilizers and more? What if what we are doing fires them without flexation of large muscle groups and that is what we are trying to teach and call fascia work? Or at least accounting for that electric feel inside.
As well, when someone is pushing on us and they get that cotton over steel feel what part of it is the agreed structure to ground and the other a golgi response in ligaments that allow minimal movement of stabilizer muscle and with the skin just being a shock pad that the hand transfers force through in a very loose feel.


Gotta run, but I'll get back to this later.

Dan Harden
19th February 2006, 16:52
Well..hmmmm.

I think the stuff that Paulina is talking about is a power-way to force or actuate the six-direction stuff that Ark does (Rob?) that makes it more readily apparent, and then strengthens it. Where Rob and I agree (I think) is that this stuff can be more than a mental training focus. It can actually be worked to be more forced into the body, therefore becoming more accessible for fighting-freestyle fighting. The freedom in it I was trying to show you and I think you started to see. In that format it becomes very mobile, flexible and dangerously real. I sent a guy into a diaphragm spasm with a hammer fist in "passing" while whipping into a cross. There was no thought to strike. The zero balance work for push resist also bring the ground into all aspects of moving. It is ate waza not atemi. Every part of you is connected so the elbow/ knee strikes have just as much validity as the hip in a throw. I have given and felt O-goshi and the hip knocked the wind out of the throw-ee. One of my guys *passed* me with his forearm and it almost knocked me out. His body was zero balanced so any contact point was instant (golgi?)

Six-direction. When I try to get guys to feel that- they have trouble. Place them in a situation where they will simply fall over if they don't do it "forces" them to find it and strengthen it. Which is what I believe Ark is doing. His double leg squat forces them to concentrate on the contradictory tensions front to back and up/down. These can be done one legged as well. If you add a push-the-ball while pulling- apart-the-ball it incorporates more of the scapula fix in that you now have more directions.
For differentiation we do wall work where you are pushed by a guy using all his weight on you pushing on your chest into the wall. The wall guy has to "let go" of any chest tension and absorb the push. There he is practicing the contradictory work in the upper half and going out, while-in, rather than front to back. When he gets it the force just disappears. Then they start up/ down front/back zero balance work in all directions and poof!!... Off the wall and the pusher is crushing down and has trouble pushing. There is no way...off that wall unless you get it right.
When they do that and they really work it, they relax. After that I make them stop and do it with breath work...THAT gets very interesting. The pusher is crushing down and cannot seem to breathe.
We should yak it over so you and your new training partner can work the exercises.
The whole process cheats the root off the floor and makes it happen in the butt to wall. Why is this useful?
Once they get that I make them lie down and start working it when they are mounted jujutsu style.
Hello!...back on top.


The hyper fluidity as a total relaxation will simply fail. As you say it is the most common misconception about relaxation. It’s like the drunken thing. Yeah that has some merit but no real power or focus. Bringing the body lines into play like that closing exercise we were doing behind the dojo was the first Thing I learned but the last to really bring power into for fighting. Releasing power was easier then making those lines in closing powerful instead of casual. Probably due to lack of talent on my part.

Speaking of power. A certain teacher we both know who trained with Wang Shu-Chin was around in the day when Draeger and Bluming tested Wang. He may be an interesting source for things as well. Or did you not know that? He certainly keeps things close to the vest that guy. Bluming got his own wrist trashed punching Wang and wang threw Draeger across the room and he landed up on the wall without his feet touching the floor. This was at the Ichigaya house. Another fellow woke up to the whole house shaking from a repeated blow to the timberwork from.....Wang. Remember back to your teahouse? That is the type of connection we aspire to- but will probably never reach or enjoy. Just lesser lights..well OK... dim bulbs.

Me

aikiducky
19th February 2006, 21:56
I think the stuff that Paulina is talking about is a power-way to force or actuate the six-direction stuff that Ark does (Rob?) that makes it more readily apparent, and then strengthens it.
I shouldn't be talking, after just one wekend seminar, but the cool thing about the exercises we did was that even after just that one weekend, I could show something at home, and my dojomates could use it, and felt more solid as a result.


The hyper fluidity as a total relaxation will simply fail.
Makes everyday life comfortable though. But then again, I'm not a fighter. :) But yeah, even last class when we were doing this shoulder thingy in techniques, I could do it for a little while and then I just couldn't keep it up anymore. Definitive lack of conditioning.

The one thing I'm a bit worried about, for myself, is that I have to stay very sensitive and... not stiff for my day job. These exercises really mess with my back in a way that I don't quite like, even though I like the results in aikido class. I think it might be a passing thing, trying to do something new and unfamiliar. But I had a chance to feel what Rob's back felt like and I don't know that I liked the feel. On the other hand though, knowing what's possible I can't imagine continuing to train the way I've done until now. Bah.

BTW, some of the things you guys talk about sound like science fiction to me. I don't mean that you make it up, just, wow. :)

Joshua Lerner
19th February 2006, 22:24
We should yak it over so you and your new training partner can work the exercises.

I don't think that's the kind of thing she'd be into. She's mostly a push-hands type of gal.

edg176
19th February 2006, 22:47
Dan Harden writes:
It can actually be worked to be more forced into the body, therefore becoming more accessible for fighting-freestyle fighting. The freedom in it I was trying to show you and I think you started to see. In that format it becomes very mobile, flexible and dangerously real.

Dan,
I've been working the Akuzawa drills for a few months now and I'm noticing that I'm getting into some problems like this. In judo randori (especially nage waza), I'll reach for people but it'll come out like a strike. It's not much motion but there's definitely the loud sound and the impact. My teachers are needless to say unhappy about this. This is as you are no doubt aware, not really allowed because it's striking. It's not like I'm trying to hit the guy, I'm just trying to move as quickly as I can when the pace of randori picks up. The more I do the exercises the more I have this "problem."

Is there a way to control this? Or is it just something I'm going to have to accept and change my training venue accordingly??

Ron Tisdale
20th February 2006, 00:30
I'm too interested in training to have to teach more half-hearted searchers. I had a 116 people come and go in the last 10 years. They said it was too rough. Plenty of places for them to go and take up mat space.

Sorry you feel I fit into that category.

Best,
Ron

Dan Harden
20th February 2006, 02:25
Ron poor writing skills on my part. I didn't mean to imply that for you. Hey!!! Its me ..did you really think I thought that way about you? :)

In general I just don't think it is worth it to dabble in it. Just my opinion. I think if people pick it up they should work it for themselves till it is "on." Then let it change them for wherever it will lead.
People do what they will, so I am of the opinion that this openness will just go nowhere...slow.

That was a bad choice to explain all that in my reply to you.


Tim
Welcome to the club. Try doing it with your hands in on his lapels! It can whiplash his neck.You should be able to control it with practice. You can alter your training and disconnect the shoulders to break the path or you can try breathing to react slowly/slower to a fast fi-in or grab. Also if you practice some other things (P.M. Rob or me) you can diffuse what you feel like. Still holding them off and letting them try to fit -in. Overall you should be able to control the impact in time so it is a... "they can't find you or feel you or ..wham!" In general it is probably best to train more by yourself till you can control yourself. The last thing anyone wants is to be difficult in a group setting. If you tell folks and apologize that will most likely go along way to keeping things pleasant.
Have you noticed them locking themselves up and having to dump out of a fit-in? Breathwork should be able to soften that as well.
Kicking and punching are a whole other thing. It is very hard to impact lightly after you do that for a while. You will have to think, and be careful.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
20th February 2006, 03:17
I shouldn't be talking, after just one wekend seminar, but the cool thing about the exercises we did was that even after just that one weekend, I could show something at home, and my dojomates could use it, and felt more solid as a result.
.........Makes everyday life comfortable though. But then again, I'm not a fighter. :) But yeah, even last class when we were doing this shoulder thingy in techniques, I could do it for a little while and then I just couldn't keep it up anymore. Definitive lack of conditioning.

The one thing I'm a bit worried about, for myself, is that I have to stay very sensitive and... not stiff for my day job. These exercises really mess with my back in a way that I don't quite like, even though I like the results in aikido class. I think it might be a passing thing, trying to do something new and unfamiliar. But I had a chance to feel what Rob's back felt like and I don't know that I liked the feel. On the other hand though, knowing what's possible I can't imagine continuing to train the way I've done until now. Bah.

BTW, some of the things you guys talk about sound like science fiction to me. I don't mean that you make it up, just, wow. :)

Hi Pauline
Well, if science fiction involves sweat and lots of failure...then maybe :rolleyes:
And you don't need to fight. Its just a better way to balance. Or, think of this. Maybe for the first time you can really see a potential for how you can stop an attacker with less effort. With practice, whatever they offer they will feel like they are hitting padded steel.. And that..would be you.

As far as not being able to ever go back. I have always said that. It is llike having a window opened to all this *potential* you had heard about but gave up believing was there. The art within the arts. With work your Aikido and you should never be the same again. With that it is still like everything else though..some better then others, some who can use it for things others cannot and so forth. Each will make of it what they will.
BTW the relaxation will come back. The stiffness is just you working new muscles and alignments.

cheers
Dan

R_Garrelts
20th February 2006, 15:31
So yea…. I understand the frustration. But I am trying to be as open as I can when I do talk about it, even though I won’t talk about the details.


Just to clarify:

I'm not really feeling any frustration from the descriptions themselves or the lack of details. My frustration stems from the difficulties that seem to accompany actually meeting the people who claim to do things like this:



The wall guy has to "let go" of any chest tension and absorb the push... When he gets it the force just disappears. Then they start up/ down front/back zero balance work in all directions and poof!!... Off the wall and the pusher is crushing down and has trouble pushing... The pusher is crushing down and cannot seem to breathe.


Or this:



When you get good, you can freeze their diaphram and they will die if
you let them. I had to revive an uke again last night from a nikkajo pin. The
type pf softness is incredibly fustrating to "find" don't give up. It takes
about 10 years to start to get "it".

Although I would, frankly, prefer that technical conversations feature more precisely defined terminology and less loose usage of words like "power," "force," "energy," etc., I realize that vague arguments over skills (that, themselves, may or may not be commonplace) are a hallmark of martial arts discussion boards. I also realize that many highly skilled practitioners would be similarly at a loss to provide a coherent description of what they are doing. So, I don't really expect to get much out of the technical conversations here and am certainly not frustrated when I don't.

But, when someone starts writing about making their opponents cramp up or causing diaphragms to spasm with anything other than a strong strike, I must admit, my skeptical brow is raised. Would you be willing to demonstrate these things on me? If not, do you know someone who would? (Minus the letting me die part, of course!) Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Curious as always,

Dan Harden
20th February 2006, 17:32
There are admittedly few places. The one I could point you too hates when it is even brought up on the net. The other is a closed Dojo. This defies credibility and makes everyones B.S. meter go up. However there are about twenty or so guys who know exactly what, and who I am reffering to. They just won't talk about it either. Even with that there are men who study this who just simply cannot do it. I have struggled for years to define why. I don't think that talent covers it. I think it is relationship with a teacher, asking the right questions and agonizing repetative practice. It is my belief that most/many people will give lip service to just about anything but in the end cannot or do not foster the discipline to do the homework. That I believe is the sole governing reason why most guys who do this work stay small and practice with a smaller group.
That said there are some things that work in a dojo setting and others that work in a free fight. Skills learned in one do carry over and are still quite profound but I never expect the same response. Rob uses it in fighting as do I. Experienced men know how to differentiate between real response and *conditioned* response. It is foolish-even dangerous- to confuse the two.
I don't teach. I don't think many others do either. When I ventured out to see the comparisions in our CMA cousins I was told repeatedly that the really good ones have just a small groups they teach this too.



I stopped talking about it on the net till Rob came out of the woodwork and then Mike. With all the fuss its caused its probably best to let it lie. Seems that many guys claim they do internal training too... so just ask. I have tried to point to the many historical references in books that are available to ease folks into understanding these deeper things have always been in the arts and that they are explicable- The art within the arts. Further, that while being profound training methods in and of themselves, they are not unstoppable or unbeatable nonsense. Just more body skills to make you better at any art you choose to use them in. The newer folks who have come back from training with Arks methods hint at these same things.

As for frank technical discussions?
Why?
I have people I train with everyweek who won't do the homework or even when they do-they struggle along with the work.It's very taxing. What possible benefit is there in explaining everything to stangers in a written internet classroom? There is nothing to pat ourself on the back about- we didn't invent it, and we are terrible compared to our own individual legacies. So we just plod along.

Go train with Ark. I don't know how much of these things they do-but they do them none-the-less. Or call it B.S. and get on with your training. :rolleyes: It is less frustrating. Always best to keep those two feet on the ground and not have our heads in la la land.
cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
20th February 2006, 20:23
My, this thread has really taken off while I was busy working...

Shikko ( 膝行 ) - moving forward by sliding on one's knees (in the presence of high-ranking individuals)

Shiko ( 四股 ) - Sumo leg raising followed by foot-stomping

Unfortunately, there are a number of things that use the same homophones, including "tooth tartar". Personally, I use the term "Shikko-ho" (knee walking method) to avoid confusion with other homophones.

Regards,

Dan Harden
20th February 2006, 22:17
My, this thread has really taken off while I was busy working...

Shikko ( 膝行 ) - moving forward by sliding on one's knees (in the presence of high-ranking individuals)

Shiko ( 四股 ) - Sumo leg raising followed by foot-stomping

Unfortunately, there are a number of things that use the same homophones, including "tooth tartar". Personally, I use the term "Shikko-ho" (knee walking method) to avoid confusion with other homophones.

Regards,

Thanks Bud
When I couldn' t reach you Geroge took care of it...and thank you too George! You guys are the best.


And for the record.... we are talking about Shiko -sumo style. Or at least what it should be.
Ever the helpful one, eh Nathan :)

Dan

Cady Goldfield
21st February 2006, 14:44
Nathan,
From what I've heard pronounced, the sumo "stomp" is pronounced "shko," while knee-sliding is pronounced "shih-kko." Is that right?

Arman
21st February 2006, 19:36
You are going to be VERY difficult to manage in a class and will be functioning on a level over most teachers you will meet.
1. You are going to find out that you are unlockable just by "being."
2. For all practical training purposes you will be unthrowable by just standing there
3. Trying to choke you or lock you will result in them being thrown
4. You will no longer be able to "offer" and sacrifice yourself in a grab or strike- so people won’t be able to find your center and throw you.
5. Your strikes will be not tolerated-you will have to go back to being disconnected and more Aikidoish to get along with some semblance of a hitting thingy…….
6. Your locks on others will be a whole new experience for them..believe me
7. Did you say you do sword? You wont beleive what it does to your sword in cutting. Remember kicking the pad?? Cut. Originally posted by Dan Harden

And as your powers continue to grow, young padawan, remember, do not be seduced by the Dark side. . . :p

Just kidding.
Peace,
Arman Partamian

Nathan Scott
21st February 2006, 20:22
Hey Cady,

That sounds basically right. The two "k's" in "Shikko" basically indicates that you hold the k for two beats, or "Shik-ko". Sumo shiko sounds pretty much as you wrote it. However, even though the "i" is sometimes pronounced a bit soft by some, it is still there, meaning, it should sound more like "she-ko" still, but all in one beat, if that makes sense.

For those of you hot into the topic de jour, CMA & Daito-ryu - you ever wonder if the sumo shiko may have been influenced or derived from the horse stance practice found in CMA? I remember my first few classes in CMA when I was a wee kid, spending the better part of an hour enjoying horse stance torture. They probably just wanted to see if I would come back again for more (silly rabbits) ...

mikesigman@eart
21st February 2006, 20:36
For those of you hot into the topic de jour, CMA & Daito-ryu - you ever wonder if the sumo shiko may have been influenced or derived from the horse stance practice found in CMA? ... Hmmmmmm, I'd say that it's more properly related to Jin Gang Dau Dui in the Chen style and P'i chuan in Xingyi.

Regards,

Mike

Cady Goldfield
21st February 2006, 21:03
Hey Cady,

That sounds basically right. The two "k's" in "Shikko" basically indicates that you hold the k for two beats, or "Shik-ko". Sumo shiko sounds pretty much as you wrote it. However, even though the "i" is sometimes pronounced a bit soft by some, it is still there, meaning, it should sound more like "she-ko" still, but all in one beat, if that makes sense.

Thanks. It does make sense. I've found I really have to listen carefully to spoken Japanese the way I would listen to music to memorize it. And, I'm still trying to make my mouth work properly when forming those double consonents. :) My fiance is trying to teach me Japanese in preparation for meeting his mom, but I probably won't use sumo and bujutsu terminology when attempting to communicate...

Finny
22nd February 2006, 02:36
Hmmmmmm, I'd say that it's more properly related to Jin Gang Dau Dui in the Chen style and P'i chuan in Xingyi.

Firstly, wouldn't Sumo predate the existance of Xingyiquan (even if you believe the Yu Fei story) by centuries? millenia?

Secondly - I personally fail to see the relationship, either in terms of external physical similarities, or energetics. Are you saying that the Sumo Shiko movements are designed to develop the same "rise, overturn, fall" energetics of pi quan?

For those interested, this is pi quan: http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/Splitting.mov

mikesigman@eart
22nd February 2006, 03:16
Firstly, wouldn't Sumo predate the existance of Xingyiquan (even if you believe the Yu Fei story) by centuries? millenia? No. Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua appear to have evolved from a common ancestor in Shanxi Province (the Chen family was forcibly moved to Henan Province about 800+ years ago after all the people in that area of Henan were killed in order to suppress an uprising). However, the principle that I'm talking about is more widespread than the just the arbitrarily named "internal family" ("nei jia" of Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua). And that core has roots that go well prior to Sumo. There seems to be a misconception that Sumo (look at the characters for "Su mo" and look for the Chinese equivalent, if you're interested) pre-dates Chinese and other influences. It doesn't... although other Japanese martial-arts enthusiasts are already aware of this, from quotes I've seen on other forums.
Secondly - I personally fail to see the relationship, either in terms of external physical similarities, or energetics. Are you saying that the Sumo Shiko movements are designed to develop the same "rise, overturn, fall" energetics of pi quan? No. What does the dantien do in P'i? Why is P'i the first element of Xin(g)yiquan? What P'i does is the same core thing that Shiko trains, when you cut to the core.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dan Harden
22nd February 2006, 13:13
You are going to be VERY difficult to manage in a class and will be functioning on a level over most teachers you will meet.
1. You are going to find out that you are unlockable just by "being."
2. For all practical training purposes you will be unthrowable by just standing there
3. Trying to choke you or lock you will result in them being thrown
4. You will no longer be able to "offer" and sacrifice yourself in a grab or strike- so people won’t be able to find your center and throw you.
5. Your strikes will be not tolerated-you will have to go back to being disconnected and more Aikidoish to get along with some semblance of a hitting thingy…….
6. Your locks on others will be a whole new experience for them..believe me
7. Did you say you do sword? You wont beleive what it does to your sword in cutting. Remember kicking the pad?? Cut. Originally posted by Dan Harden

And as your powers continue to grow, young padawan, remember, do not be seduced by the Dark side. . . :p

Just kidding.
Peace,
Arman Partamian


Armen...ya kill me.
Anakin "But I am ready for the tests.. I am, I am,.. I am ready to be a Jedi master"
Switch that whiny runts comments to any martial art students diatribe and there ya go.

The force?? Hhmm...
Internal work is the basis for all high level DR skills. Once you get past technique and then Aiki elbow-power and let it be retained in the body. Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba....all practiced pushing, choking, grabbing, and stick work with responses.....sans technique. Pictures and stories galore. They were throwing sumatori and Judoka well into their eighties.
What's changed.............?

Wonder why *they* talked about Shiko, and Sagawa swore by it daily. Kimura still does.
Wonder why Ueshiba was having Tenryu *push* him all over the place?
Why Sagawa had men pushing him in his nineties?
Why pushing?
I Wonder why..in an unprecedented and never equaled "promotion"..Ueshiba told Tenryu (sumatori) after only three months training with him. "There is no more I can teach you. Now you can go and no man will be able to defeat you."
And I wonder why, that still, today; only a small fraction of men practice or can do this work? Why everyone is still hell-bent on doing techniques?
Just wondering.
It is interesting that those who have tasted it and trained it-even just a little- all get...to man..that understanding of at least its *potential*..in them. Further, they are writing of it here and there.

Though I will agree Armen that many times it feels like "The force" to people who have never experienced it.

Cheers
Dan

jzimba1
22nd February 2006, 14:20
Hi everyone,

I had no idea this forum had returned to the land of the living.

In my long abscence, the unthinkable has happened.

Mike Sigman and Dan H. both posting and using similar terminology and vocabulary... on the same forum...


My two interests in the Ma world...

One day I wonder at how unrelated the two can be--the next wondering why I can't tell them apart.

Dan, I'd love to hear what changed for you in the last couple of years.

The one quality I remember both of you having is pragmatism.

I look forward to more posts, emails and maybe even a flame war or two for old time's sake:)

Love,

Joel

Arman
22nd February 2006, 16:06
Dan,

No argument about the internal. I've been working on it in my CMA practice, but I haven't been at it too long. You might have seen from the first aiki expo Don Angier throw Toby Threadgill from a two handed grab that was simply, IMO, spectacular. Angier barely moved, Toby's arms locked and he flew through the air. After the demo, Toby said he felt like Don almost broke his arms on that throw. Needless to say, I was very impressed, and it was one of the few times I have seen internal power expressed in a form that looked very real to my eyes.

Anyway, one thing you pointed out that I've been struggling with is balancing my regular strength training with my CMA stuff. I like to lift 2 to 3 times a week, and I've already noticed how if I'm not careful it can screw up my internal development.

Best,
Arman Partamian

kimiwane
22nd February 2006, 17:56
Dan, I keep reading all your posts all the way through and really thinking about them, but I keep coming to the same end: you are not talking about anything terribly unusual to anyone who has been to the heart of the aikido world, which is to say, close to Ueshiba.


(of Dan, posted by Arman)
You are going to be VERY difficult to manage in a class and will be functioning on a level over most teachers you will meet.

I guess that depends on where you go. If you go only to the best people you won't find that true. I can give you a list of people who can doubtless "push" anyone and will be pretty well unpushable and they have just done traditional Japanese arts, including aikido, judo, karate and sword. I have named a number of names in the past and have not lost the list, so I will be glad to provide it and, since these people are all professionals, I know they won't mind.


1. You are going to find out that you are unlockable just by "being."

Again, it depends on who you're meeting. I can do that to most of the aikido people I've ever met (outside yoseikan/seifukai). I had a teacher tell his class recently concerning me: "If he doesn't want you to throw him, you won't be able to move him." But this class was really on the low end as modern weak aikido goes.

On the other end, I've been punched in the gut by a German jujutsu expert and was not moved and didn't miss a beat in the lesson.

But still further in the same direction, I knew many of people who could move me easily. I guess one of the most important lessons in budo is neither strength nor technique but the recognition that we are above some people in our abilities but we will always find people who are better than we. And part of that lesson is that some of those people will be younger than us. And some will be far older and smaller, yet able to move us at will. There are very few humans who have not already experienced this truth. But few of them have the honesty to admit results they do not like.


Internal work is the basis for all high level DR skills. Once you get past technique and then Aiki elbow-power and let it be retained in the body. Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba....all practiced pushing, choking, grabbing, and stick work with responses.....sans technique. Pictures and stories galore. They were throwing sumatori and Judoka well into their eighties.

What's changed.............?

I believe what has changed is the relationship of the uke and the tori. Modern aikido teaches uke simply to fall down--no, to THROW himself down--at the slightest "gesture" that tori makes. Tori needs do NOTHING for uke to fall.

But if uke gives NO resistance to tori's techniques, there is no "testing" of tori's center. Resistance from uke is for the purpose of stressing tori's control of his own center.

I just re-read Ellis Amdur's article on "Hidden in Plain Sight". I knew I had read it before. And I will admit that I have never seen anyone stand at the edge of tatami and hold off a group of soldiers, all pushing against them, as Ueshiba is reported to have done. But that's the thing: I haven't seen ANYONE do that. If I could see SOMEONE do it, then I might feel that I'm missing something.

I also have never seen anyone sit cross-legged and resist several people pushing him by the head, as I've seen Ueshiba do for brief seconds on video. And all that he did with pushing a jo and several people being unable to push back, etc., is all interesting, but I am of the opinion that he developed it by working with people and not mainly by working alone. As you say above, "Sagawa, Kodo, Ueshiba....all practiced pushing, choking, grabbing, and stick work with responses.....sans technique. Pictures and stories galore. They were throwing sumatori and Judoka well into their eighties."

But you transitioned there from "sans technique" to "throwing people", which WAS technique. So you have to have BOTH.


I Wonder why..in an unprecedented and never equaled "promotion"..Ueshiba told Tenryu (sumatori) after only three months training with him. "There is no more I can teach you. Now you can go and no man will be able to defeat you."

Well, you know, Tenryu was already a champion sumo tori whom few could beat, anyway. He was already well accomplished in the line of yawara techniques that originate in sumo and lead to modern judo. When Ueshiba gave him the line of jujutsu that comes from the sword, it didn't take him long to put it all together. But notice that, in the accounts of his training, there is tremendous person-to-person contact and dealing with each other's weight. Sumo is all about feeling a very powerful and centered athlete's intention, avoiding his strength and leading his efforts to unbalance. And Tenryu was no "average" sumo tori.

As for fast comprehension, it's one thing to train someone and "promote" him yourself, but another thing to train soemone and have someone ELSE test his skills.

I saw a very accomplished martial artist come to Mochizuki sensei and after a pretty brief time of training with him go from judo sandan to judo godan through shiai against highly resistant opponents. And Yamashita, the Olympic gold medalist, came to Mochizuki sensei for special training as he prepared for the Olympics. The key, in my opinion, is working with people who are capapble in a number of martial arts, excellent in ukemi skills and able to resist even very effective aikido technique.

So, to me, the key is UKE. As you mention, "everyone is still hell-bent on doing techniques" but how does that apply to uke?

Uke is just being unmoveable. And he will be unmoveable until tori comes up with the correct movement to MAKE him fall. A good uke can even get into an "awkward" position and STILL be unmoveable for tori.

I think that is what is missing, as you wondered above.


And I wonder why, that still, today; only a small fraction of men practice or can do this work? Why everyone is still hell-bent on doing techniques?

As I say, in the old yoseikan, everyone did both. Aikido is, among other things, a range of technical applications. But we spent well under half our time doing the techniques. The rest was being uke, and uke's duty was to resist. Mochizuki sensei would get mad if you gave a weak attack or fell down too easily. He would stand on the side of the mat and call "Gambatte! Gambatte!" You had to resist to the degree you were able. So there you got your "unmoveability" training and on the other side you got your techniques. I think you DO need BOTH. Tanren IS the center of the Japanese arts. It IS the "art within the art", but the "external art" was oriented to developing the "inner art". It was seldom directly mentioned, but all the experience was structured to develop it.

And this is NOT true in your garden-variety aikido classes.


It is interesting that those who have tasted it and trained it-even just a little- all get...to man..that understanding of at least its *potential*..in them. Further, they are writing of it here and there.

Dan, especially from you, I would like to accept that statement at face value, but it is pretty broad, if you look at it.

"those who have tasted it and trained it--even just a little--all get...to (a) man...that understanding of at least its *potential*...in them..."

"It" is so vaguely defined, yet you, Rob and Mike all invariably "strike down" whatever isn't exactly what you are doing. And since, as far as I can tell, you all three are doing quite different things, among the three of you, you strike down pretty much everything anyone else says.

And "writing" of it?

Well, again, you're all writing generally similar but specifically different things. And to the degree that there is unclarity or outright mistake....I don't see that as a good thing.

Questioners are all told that what they are doing is "not it", that what you are doing "is it", but no one will say "what" "it" is, or, outside Akuzawa, "who" even does it. As I pointed out above, I can give you a long list of many people who I'm sure will impress anyone who wants to try pushing or pulling or choking them. That's all these guys live for and they all have open doors and public names. They are all just waiting for someone who wants to look a little deeper into "the truth of the martial arts". Most of them are sad to find so few people really interested. I know they would be glad to see anyone who is interested. I've provided many of those names and will be glad to re-list them. But, other than Akuzawa and the three people mentioned above, you haven't told us of anyone who does "it".

And, last, something I've asked before but have yet to see answered:

Isn't what you are doing basically chi gung while concentrating on the six directions?

Related to that,

Will six-direction concentration work with "any" chi gung exercise?

Where did you learn it?

Best wishes,

David

Arman
22nd February 2006, 20:20
I have worked with a few Yoseikan budo guys in my day, and I have to say they were among the strongest aikidoka I've worked with. They were also, blessedly, not limp noodles as uke. If you didn't have their center, they didn't move. I remember one guy in particular had a grip like iron, without creating any tension in his arms, and he would just kind of look at me with a bemused grin while I tried to move his center. It took awhile.

Best,
Arman Partamian

Dan Harden
22nd February 2006, 21:42
Hi everyone,

I had no idea this forum had returned to the land of the living. In my long absence, the unthinkable has happened. Mike Sigman and Dan H. both posting and using similar terminology and vocabulary... on the same forum...
My two interests in the Ma world...

One day I wonder at how unrelated the two can be--the next wondering why I can't tell them apart.


Joel!!!
Well, well. Where have you been hiding? When are you coming back up again? I hope everything is well...did you land on your feet? P.M. me.

Me and Mike saying the same thing? When did that happen?
I certainly don't know anything about Mike, his arts, his terminology, or his views. I only know what I do. I know less than zero about the CMA-other than people keep telling me I feel like them, or their teachers, or some guy they met at a CMA seminar. And when they ask me to push and show what I do they say either it is CMA or CMA *like* or they tell me what names CMA have for what I do. But on these internet boards I get told "No it isn't. I wouldn't know. And I stopped caring. I seem to recall you and Cady telling me the only time you had felt ssomething like this was from a CMA guy. Oh well. Doesn't really matter does iit?


Dan, I'd love to hear what changed for you in the last couple of years.

The one quality I remember both of you having is pragmatism.

I look forward to more posts, emails and maybe even a flame war or two for old time's sake

Love,

Joel

Changed me from what? I am as pragmatic as I have ever been. Aint gonna see that change anytime soon? Does that mean the CMA are not pragmatic? Is that what you mean by comparison?
No flame wars from me. I'm too nice. I let these guys fight each other. I make friends. :rolleyes:



Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
22nd February 2006, 21:48
David

You have once again taken your many frustrations (and others frustrations as well) with Mike and Rob and merged them with me. I must object in that most don't seem frustrated with Rob as much as Mike.

I'm me. Talk to me. You ask me some things publicly and I will answer if I can, or you can ask me privately. In any event I have...to my knowledge NEVER been rude or dismissive of you or your efforts. Instead I have acknowledged what you were saying and agreed where I could. Other times just said what I was doing was different...no big deal.


The one broad statement you used from me:
It is interesting that those who have tasted it and trained it-even just a little- all get...to man..that understanding of at least its *potential*..in them. Further, they are writing of it here and there.

Was me merely echoing what others have said when they started walking down this path. Just a quick read of even the recent folks who returned from training with Ark shows this to be true. Ask them.
Seems everyone tells me how they are doing this stuff too. But all I know is when I show them what we do they say..."What it is that?" Why is that my dilema Bud? Its their opinion. The fact that I am now reading these things from people who have trained with Ark is no surprise to me at all. I have been hearing the same stuff for years. Please don't ask me to explain the experiences and opinions of others. Nor to qualify them.

Are there others doing this work.. I am sure there is. I am getting P.M.'s from people wanting to talk shop..and others who are just searching. Should be a fun decade. I just don't see any reason to make enemies over Budo.

Peace
Dan

Dan Harden
22nd February 2006, 22:12
I have worked with a few Yoseikan budo guys in my day, and I have to say they were among the strongest aikidoka I've worked with. They were also, blessedly, not limp noodles as uke. If you didn't have their center, they didn't move. I remember one guy in particular had a grip like iron, without creating any tension in his arms, and he would just kind of look at me with a bemused grin while I tried to move his center. It took awhile.

Best,
Arman Partamian

Hey you
Mochizuki rocked!
His Sutemi was awesome. He was a cantakerous old guy I hear tell, and called B.S. ...well B.S. when he saw it. Ask Kondo what Mochizuki said to him at the 50th celebration when Kondo brought out a sword!!
Mochizuki's Yoseikan is just good stuff. I just have heard too many good things from too many different sources about Mochizuki to not believe it. I have a pre-prejudice for anything related to judo anyway. I'm just not a big Aiki-related arts fan, of any type.
I prefer; Rubber...meet...road.


Lifting
I find it can hurt if you do just the white boy.. curling,tricep, shoulder, skinney leg stuff and you don't power lift or work the whole body.

Overall it isn't a problem for me if I train solo everyday to counter it. I also stretch...a lot!! Sucks getting old though.

Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
22nd February 2006, 22:28
Just a quick follow up.
As it is their thread. Can we at least acknowledge that Rob and Ark are being open, answering questions, are enthuisastic, and at least putting themselves out there? The fact is they are not saying what they do is the best thing since sliced bread-just what it is and what it can do. Then they welcome people to feel it. That places them miles above the frey, or just equal to others who are open as well. Go try it out. and see for yourselves.
My hats off to them. And I don't even like the fact (not that anyone cares what I think) that they are teaching what was gokui... openly.
Cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
23rd February 2006, 13:23
As it is their thread.

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure why there is so much talk about Daito-ryu in a thread about Aunkai and Mr. Akuzawa (?). It sounds like some posters know a lot about how the Aunkai system works, and are in to talking about it. But high level Daito-ryu aiki? Who is to say? Don't mean to dampen the discussion here, but it just seems a little off topic.

Regards,

JasonW
23rd February 2006, 14:19
Sorry to butt in, but I been reading through this whole thread and still none the wiser... who is Ark? Is it short for Akuzawa, or are you referring to Ark Yue Wong?

tia,

Jason

kimiwane
23rd February 2006, 16:46
You have once again taken your many frustrations (and others frustrations as well) with Mike and Rob and merged them with me. I must object in that most don't seem frustrated with Rob as much as Mike.

Well, Rob has gotten quiet. And you are right. Mike Sigman is the real problem there.


I'm me. Talk to me. You ask me some things publicly and I will answer if I can, or you can ask me privately.

I have asked some things politely and publicly. And I've worked out some answers for myself from your other posts, but I would still like you to say more about some things. For instance, I asked if your "thing" were like chi gong with six-direction concentration. Now I understand that you don't have any major influence from CMA in your work--that it's all Japanese based. Or am I wrong?

Still, Japanese often appreicate chi gong as "kiko", so I guess what you do could still be essentially that. Would you confirm or clarify that?

Also, DO you do the six-direction thing or is that strictly Akuzawa? I know Mike talks about it, but I don't think Rob supports what he says and I've read your own comments that you don't exactly support his statements.

So what about the thing I described: snake creeps down to standing on one leg, snake creeps back down and stands on the other leg? Would you use the six-direction method with that or not? Or, again, do you actually DO the six-direction method?


In any event I have...to my knowledge NEVER been rude or dismissive of you or your efforts. Instead I have acknowledged what you were saying and agreed where I could. Other times just said what I was doing was different...no big deal.

I've pretty much always enjoyed your comments and our discussions.


The one broad statement you used from me:
It is interesting that those who have tasted it and trained it-even just a little- all get...to man..that understanding of at least its *potential*..in them. Further, they are writing of it here and there.

Was me merely echoing what others have said when they started walking down this path. Just a quick read of even the recent folks who returned from training with Ark shows this to be true. Ask them.

That clarifies it. I wasn't sure whom you meant. But I have read some comments from such people.

On the other hand, I've done a good bit of CMA and a good bit of chi gung over the years. I used to do a thing called Tai Chi Ruler, that only involves rocking back and forth on the feet and making a vertical circle with the hands as the hips move back and forth. You do that with the hands at waist level 18 times left and right, then with the hands at solar plexus level 18 times left and right, then the hands at head level, 18 times each side. This practice begins by holding a "wand" between the palms, but as you progress, you hold a bowling ball in your hands.

Now, talk about developing a ground connection and using the whole body through the hips, Tai Chi Ruler develops it. One thing I always noticed when I was doing a lot of that was similar to something you said somewhere. It makes the whole body feel as if it were cut out of a single piece of springy rubber. The whole body is a springy unit.


Seems everyone tells me how they are doing this stuff too. But all I know is when I show them what we do they say..."What it is that?" Why is that my dilema Bud?

This whole thing goes back to the Meditation/Ki thread, where Rob came on demanding that I describe kuzushi, but being willing to accept an answer ONLY in terms of his six-directional contradcitory power, which, frankly, I'd never heard of. And he, coyly, would not describe it, so I and many other readers here have had to try to figure out what he was talking about.

I mean, if you say, "I have a green thing in my room," why wouldn't people say, "You mean a globe?" "A glove?" "A light bulb?" What is it?

Further, we got explicit instruction that NO technique can be done without "it," NO kuzushi is possible without "it", etc. And having done many techniques and having known kuzushi from both sides from many years of hands-on training, I had to conclude that I MUST have been using "the stuff" to some degree all along.

But, no, I've been told. That's not it. Well, no, I do not and never have done any exercises that force me to think in six directions at once (IF that is even part of it: no one can tell from the descriptions). But if we're saying those six directions are constant directions of push and pull on our bodies, then, yes, I HAVE balanced those contradictory directions THOUSANDS of times with resistant ukes.


Its their opinion.

Well, when you're discussing "something," people have to try to understand it. We often hear of the blind men discussing the elephant, but what about the sighted people who have been asked to relate to an elephant that has been placed in a pitch-dark room? Why not shed a little light on what we're discussing?


The fact that I am now reading these things from people who have trained with Ark is no surprise to me at all. I have been hearing the same stuff for years. Please don't ask me to explain the experiences and opinions of others. Nor to qualify them.

I would just like you to explain a little more about what, exactly, you're doing.


Are there others doing this work.. I am sure there is. I am getting P.M.'s from people wanting to talk shop..and others who are just searching.

Well, there's another point that really needs to be illuminated here. The over-riding suggestion behind a lot of these discussions has been the basic premise that "traditional" or "established" martial artists are NOT searching. Rob set part of that tone and Mike has been trying to hump it ever since.

And while it's true that a lot of people have their identities and egoes all tied up in their belts, and that they would NOT consider any idea that doesn't come from the guy who judges whether they get their next belt, I think we have more "explorer" types on this board than you would see in the average MA school. Mike was shocked when Peter Goldsbury said he would like to go train with Akuzawa. He had just pegged Peter as such a closed-minded person.

We have to recognize that the main "opposition" to "this stuff" has not been against "the stuff" at all, but against the "attitude" of disrespect and superiority with which it has been presented and pushed on these boards.


Should be a fun decade.

Unfortunately, I think this decade will give us a lot more to worry about than the meaning of "kokyu" or "six-directional contradictory power."


I just don't see any reason to make enemies over Budo.

Well, when a priori respect goes out the window, it ceases to be budo. Also, when artificial respect overflows and everything is pure, static "form", that's not budo, either. And neither is taking easy offense at weird statements.

So I will continue to reach for real budo and I will continue to look forward to your comments.

Best wishes.

Peace
Dan[/QUOTE]

kimiwane
23rd February 2006, 16:56
Mochizuki rocked!
His Sutemi was awesome. He was a cantakerous old guy I hear tell, and called B.S. ...well B.S. when he saw it. Ask Kondo what Mochizuki said to him at the 50th celebration when Kondo brought out a sword!!

Can you tell us?


Mochizuki's Yoseikan is just good stuff. I just have heard too many good things from too many different sources about Mochizuki to not believe it.

I wish I were a better example of his teaching. And being around him as a person was also very rewarding. He was a very giving person and he carried a deep reverence and gratitude for the people who had taught him. Also, he didn't disrespect people or things for the bored amusement of it. Most foolishness, he just waved off and forgot it. But he would go far out of his way to give you something.


I have a pre-prejudice for anything related to judo anyway. I'm just not a big Aiki-related arts fan, of any type.
I prefer; Rubber...meet...road.

That was the nice thing about his dojo. The rubber was always on the road and people from around the world were there leaving tire tracks every few weeks. And it was a fantastic range of techniques, both in attack and defense. There was a lot of resistance, but you never really had to worry about someone's giving you a dirty shot. You could trust pretty much everyone to stop the technique when you tapped out. You could trust them not to snap your arm when you were "cooperating" in practice. The place had such a rough reputation, but people there really played fair. On the other hand, I've taken a number of aggressive techniques and I've been hit with "dirty shots" many times in my visits to "peaceful" aikido schools. That always seemed strange to me.

kimiwane
23rd February 2006, 17:00
Now that you mention it, I'm not sure why there is so much talk about Daito-ryu in a thread about Aunkai and Mr. Akuzawa (?).

I think that's because Aunkai is rather unclear about that, itself. Akuzawa trained in DR, didn't he? That's one of his main claims to authority. AND this thread is in the "aikijujutsu" forum. I think a lot of people are naturally confused as to "what" aunkai is and 'what' they are doing. And the many comments from people "doing" it and those who are doing something similar but not the same are also confusing to many of the readers.


It sounds like some posters know a lot about how the Aunkai system works, and are in to talking about it. But high level Daito-ryu aiki? Who is to say?

Well, that's why I've been asking Tomoo Yawata, with both aunkai and yoshinkan experience, to comment in some depth. He was just about to do that when the ki/kokyu thread closed, so I hope he will do that here.

Best wishes.

Asura
23rd February 2006, 17:08
Lolz...dude I already explained it.

And no Ark isn't the only one doing six directional stuff. It's the basis for standing, and as such a tenent in all internal arts.

Sam Chin in NYC comes to mind as well. He's pretty open on explaining this stuff and mentions the same stuff (and I've felt it, numerous times), although he uses the foundation differently than Ark does.

Let's see.. it was also beat with a dead horse in several issues of Wushu Magazine here in Japan on the "secrets" of tai chi.

It's a tenant of I-Chuan, though they tend to setup a more "intent" driven contradiction.

I could go on and list more examples, but I'd bore myself. Anymore typing and I'd have to ask someone to pass me that ultrasonic whistle and a taser to keep myself amused :)

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between what Mike and I do, but they still lie on the same bedrock.

If you need more pointers, do a search on Aikiweb. It's been discussed to death there :rolleyes:

Asura
23rd February 2006, 17:15
I think that's because Aunkai is rather unclear about that, itself. Akuzawa trained in DR, didn't he? That's one of his main claims to authority. AND this thread is in the "aikijujutsu" forum. I think a lot of people are naturally confused as to "what" aunkai is and 'what' they are doing. And the many comments from people "doing" it and those who are doing something similar but not the same are also confusing to many of the readers.


He trained in DR, but let me make this clear, Ark would NEVER use this to claim authority. You're just assuming that. :rolleyes:

Ark's authority comes from the physical result he's been able to demonstrate on everyone. Which everyone that made the seminar got a chance to feel.
You won't understand until you get a chance to touch hands ;)

Dan Harden
23rd February 2006, 18:14
Deleted

David check your P.M.

Dan

kimiwane
23rd February 2006, 21:00
He trained in DR, but let me make this clear, Ark would NEVER use this to claim authority. You're just assuming that. :rolleyes:

No. I didn't assume it. Since there was no one to ask, I was more "musing" on it. Why else is this thread in "aikijujutsu"?


Ark's authority comes from the physical result he's been able to demonstrate on everyone.

Well, ultimately, that's all anyone has. No matter what degree black belt you hold, there is a test that will tell the real truth. And that is the meeting.

But you are saying Akuzawa's never met anyone he couldn't "demonstrate it" on? Not even his teacher? That seems maybe ...misstated?


Which everyone that made the seminar got a chance to feel.

I was going to make it, but the EZ-Lift on my La-Z-Boy was stuck and I couldn't get up to go to the airport. Had to watch a solid week of Matlock. That Andy Griffith...

Seriously, if I were in Japan I would stop by and see. But then I get to a long line of people I'd like to train with and have wanted to meet for much longer. Adam Hsu would be among the top of that list. After Murai sensei, Tezuka sensei and Washizu sensei. But if I were in the country, I would certainly stop by and see. I have always done that.

So I would like to meet Akuzawa sama but I can't go everywhere I'd like.

I have certainly never said there's anything wrong with tanren training. And I did read Ellis' article Hidden in Plain Sight again. I now realize that that was the seed that started many of these discussions.

Am I wrong to say, basically, that that article appeared and people began discussing Akuzawa as a "source" of "what was missing in aikido"?

Your and my disagreement has been at issue of whether that element was missing in the aikido I learned, or in the sword or judo taught by Mochizuki sensei. Thinking of it in that light, tanren training was the center of it. And I know it was the core of the tai chi and bagua I've done. So as a mere human being as well as a martial artist, I have held my ground with my statements.

But as I said, in over 30 years of reading everything I could find on martial arts, I never heard mention of six-directions anything excpet the roppokai. I never said it wasn't real. But I read everything I could find for three decades and I knew stuff no other martial artist I met knew about.

And while I have never practiced any chi gung with six-direction concentration, I have had my balance tested in every direction in many awkward positions through many years. I think that would be no less than the ura of the omote you have described.


You won't understand until you get a chance to touch hands ;)

That holds true for all of us, doesn't it? We may think we know, but we should always reserve judgment for proof.

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 00:08
Ladies and Gents

Lets see if we can resolve terminology differences in one paragraph.

Lets say ..I don't really care what you "call" what you do.
And...I am not even asking for you to say "what" it is you do.

For a simple test for comparisons; Ground rules. No fighting, no fients, no Waza of any kind.

Can you do this?
Stand in a room and not use any waza, not use your hands, or any offensive techniques and then.....
1. Have a 220 pound man push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can
3. Then have him pile drive into you
4. Then even casually.. to severely pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet.
Then
5. Have him push you and -without you moving- you breathe and he starts to collapse downward
6. Do the above with a stick in your hands while he pushes with you not moving
Then
7. Place yur hands on his chest and not move you shoulders or body in any discernable way and send them 3-6' with your touch


If you can do that.... these basic things. Then I really don't care what you "call" it, you're worth talking too, as you are doing internal skills.
Why do I say that? Internal skills share common structure and methods.

I had this debate with Mike on the Aikido journal thread till I left. Give it any name or terminology you wish. I don't care what art, what country, what name. There is no rudeness here, no implied superiority or who is better than who as this isn't about fighting or any such thing.

I believe in the fundamental honesty of those on this thread. Anyone of us have what?...20-50 people we know who read here. What are we gonna do..lie?
If you can do these types of things... then you are exhibiting forms of internal skills by any other name.

Cheeers guys :)
Dan

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 00:25
And If you cannot.....
Then be honest with yourselves that there is something out there you don't know.

Me

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 00:25
I had this debate with Mike on the Aikido journal thread till I left. Hold it. You and I never had a "debate" like this and I don't like constantly being used as an entre' for you to present some personal point of view. Besides, it was pretty clear to all on that forum that you left because someone, not me, pointed out that your posts always look like advertisements for Dan Harden.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 00:57
No..I used personal examples as I would not tell you "how" I do what I do.
To which I got continual comments from you like..."then you don't know." So I will correct that. no debates with me Mike. Instead ever trying to get folks to play by Mikes rules....You offer nothing, you are dissmissive of most, and you refuse most overtures of those trying to be nice...so yeah no debates.,,no discussion of any worth just Mike being Mike.

Once again you stroll in with an insulting comment about me carefully worded as something someone else said ..which you just had to offer here. Then you tell others continually to not "insult" you, and stay on point. :rolleyes:
Fine Mike...whatever. SSDD Ala Mike Sigman.
Thanks Mike for contributing in yet another positve Mike Sigman way

Fellas dont' look for a flame war. I am not going to talk with this guy. Lets keep this clean.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 01:44
Just like to point out once again folks..that my guidelines in post #113 are an attempt to uplift and join together those who may not have terminology; one art to another, one country to another to share at least the results of their methods or means. Lets not let it be used or toyed with as a means to divide and cause yet more hard feelings among good people.

Thanks
Dan

Asura
24th February 2006, 06:31
I was going to make it, but the EZ-Lift on my La-Z-Boy was stuck and I couldn't get up to go to the airport. Had to watch a solid week of Matlock. That Andy Griffith...

Adam Hsu would be among the top of that list.

Am I wrong to say, basically, that that article appeared and people began discussing Akuzawa as a "source" of "what was missing in aikido"?

Your and my disagreement has been at issue of whether that element was missing in the aikido I learned, or in the sword or judo taught by Mochizuki sensei. Thinking of it in that light, tanren training was the center of it. And I know it was the core of the tai chi and bagua I've done. So as a mere human being as well as a martial artist, I have held my ground with my statements.


Your Lazy boy being stuck...seems pretty fitting if you ask me (Hey you said it, not me ;) )

Adam Hsu's at the top of your list? O_o

I'd recommend Sam Chin over him in a heartbeat ;)
Plus he'd be closer to you anyways. (NYC)

No one was discussing Ark as the source of what was missing Aikido.
He was just mentioned and brought up as someone who had disclosed and explained certain training methedologies that developed that kind of body skill that most people are after in the internal arts.

I don't necessarily think Mochizuki was missing stuff, but considering the descriptions you gave, it led me to think that it's quite possible you missed out on what he had.

As for you holding ground with your statements...um whatever makes you happy dude :p

Mark Jakabcsin
24th February 2006, 13:37
Rob,
So are there any plans for Ark to do a seminar in the USA? Please keep us posted if anything develops. Thanks.

Hi Dan! Hi Mike! It's good to see everyone still posting. ;)

Take care,

Mark J.

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 15:06
Just like to point out once again folks..that my guidelines in post #113 are an attempt to uplift and join together those who may not have terminology; one art to another, one country to another to share at least the results of their methods or means. Lets not let it be used or toyed with as a means to divide and cause yet more hard feelings among good people.So Dan, once again.... you post these things and I ask you to explain how you did them. I don't know how you did them because I didn't see you or any of the numerous other anecdotal instances. The one time I got a probing question in on something that you bothered to answer, you said that you couldn't do all of your things all the time.... meaning they weren't solidly reproducible.

So tell us which ones are reproducible with people outside of your class. For instance if I'm the one holding a stick with you, do you think you can "breathe" and I will collapse? And so on.

What happens is that you tell these personal anecdotes about yourself and what you can do, but when someone asks you to explain how you do them, you won't respond. In this case, as in others, the implications and statements seem to boil down to your ability to do things that other people can't do. So why not let's discuss exactly what you do and how you do it... but let's keep it to the ones you're sure that you can reproduce with someone other than a student (you never clarify in your example whether the people you're doing these things with are your students or not..... it makes a big difference and it's why I won't try to guess exactly what you're doing).

It *sounds* like you have some control of jin or kokyu-force, but I can't tell how much, based on anecdotes like this, so I won't guess. Since you brought up the stories, why don't you explain how you do it? Take one instance, for instance how someone pushes on you and you don't fall over. If you used good jin or kokyu paths to do it, it's a very simple explanation and goes along with other things that have been explained here and on other forums. Perhaps it's just me, but it might be bad form to make it a point to claim unusual powers above others' in various anecdotes without at least some brief description of how it's done.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Cady Goldfield
24th February 2006, 16:01
Why would Mr. Harden need or want to explain, on a public forum, how he does things? Especially under goading by skeptics and naysayers? There is nothing to prove. My take is that he is just describing an individual experience for others to consider...or not.

He has trained openly for years with anyone who sincerely wanted to experience these arts. Even if he did describe mechanics, what good would that do? Those of us who have been in the arts for years know that explaining mechanics does no good in words. They must be felt first-hand.

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 16:18
So Dan, once again.... you post these things and I ask you to explain how you did them. I don't know how you did them because I didn't see you or any of the numerous other anecdotal instances. The one time I got a probing question in on something that you bothered to answer, you said that you couldn't do all of your things all the time.... meaning they weren't solidly reproducible.

Thanks Cady, and contrary to my better temperment....
Mike You love to misquote and play games then say you don't. It is the essense of your internet persona. Ever the innocent... It is the main reason many here don't like you.
I told you one thing....that what I do does not "always" produce that shot in gut feeling of nausea everytime from stick work. Partly because of what I am doing between a ground path and slow-motion power releasing VS other shaking and manipulation of the stick that WE do.. On further discussion I said it may be a conditoned response vs fighting response. And I was describing the stick in particular -and noting for honesty that this is not fighting but an exercise. A more appropriate response would be to hit me upside the head with it. But don't let that deter you from your "pick apart" style of communication we all know you for. How the E-budo moderatores have let you continue to post is beyond me.
Thread...hijack..Mike.


So tell us which ones are reproducible with people outside of your class. For instance if I'm the one holding a stick with you, do you think you can "breathe" and I will collapse? And so on.

1.Ground to ground?
2.Power release to power release through the stick?
3.or you using muscle as a training exercise and me using kokyu?
With the first two who knows? You make no bones about the fact that you are not a fighter and don't teach fighting. I, on the other hand am and do. Who would be better in a contest of immediate and sustainable application of kokyu and maniulation of a ground path is anyone's guess. I'm not talking about fighting here ( frankly, I think it would be no contest there) just kokyu skills. Even then I would be less concerned with who is doing these things better, and more to the point that they are being done at all. I have my doubt about you when you keep asking everyone else what it is THEY do.
Since we...didn't invent this stuff. The true credit belongs elsewhere. Which was my hopes in producing the experiment example guys. So we can have a playing field wthout Mike telling you what words fit the Mike manual.


What happens is that you tell these personal anecdotes about yourself and what you can do, but when someone asks you to explain how you do them, you won't respond. In this case, as in others, the implications and statements seem to boil down to your ability to do things that other people can't do. So why not let's discuss exactly what you do and how you do it... but let's keep it to the ones you're sure that you can reproduce with someone other than a student (you never clarify in your example whether the people you're doing these things with are your students or not..... it makes a big difference and it's why I won't try to guess exactly what you're doing).

Caution... Mike Sigmanism alert!! Once again mis-stating *what* people do, then telling them *why* they do it, in defiance of the person themselves stating "why" they say or do "what" they do.
That is Mikes very word-wise and clever way of calling people liars and impugning their integrity without directly doing so. All while telling them, in their frustration in honestly dealing with him "To not get personal" in their reply. This was pointed out to me by someone here and it has remained true. Its dishonest communication.
Just another reason people "Don't like Mike."
I said exactly why I use examples Mike..over and over and over and over. I did it here yet again.You ignore them and then insult by insinuation. But oh no... never directly..how clever. And then*suggest* in your own words as to why I use examples.
You are rude and dismissive no matter how clever.


It *sounds* like you have some control of jin or kokyu-force, but I can't tell how much, based on anecdotes like this, so I won't guess. Since you brought up the stories, why don't you explain how you do it? Take one instance, for instance how someone pushes on you and you don't fall over. If you used good jin or kokyu paths to do it, it's a very simple explanation and goes along with other things that have been explained here and on other forums. Perhaps it's just me, but it might be bad form to make it a point to claim unusual powers above others' in various anecdotes without at least some brief description of how it's done.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Please don’t end your post to me with "regards." You neither have any regard for the feeling or views I have -or it seems many others here. So don't say it. It is disingenuous and fundamentally dishonest.

I won't measure my control of Jin nor compare it to your standards..which, since you don't ever stand up to the plate- no one knows. As one moderator pointed out you set yourself up as arbitor for what *it*..is as a standard or definition- without ever entering the frey.
So...Again I have been clear. You do not address the post directly and go after my motives and intents.

My post.
My reasons.
Clearly stated.
No dodging.....
So Mike....can you do these things at that level or not?
How about even the baby steps to get there?
I don't care *what* you do...Please spare me ...
I am frankly not interested in *how* you do what you do either. I have a suspicion you have allot to learn and its why you keep asking *me* for answers.
Can you duplicate that rather basic non-fighting experiment?

Forget freestyle? If you push me. I aint going over. And since I have had to learn this over the years with collegiate wrestlers, judoka and my own guys ranging up to 6' 3" 279 lbs. My money is on me that I aint moving and your going for a ride. I had this "discussion" with a 310lb. offensive linemen at the gym two weeks ago. Unlike some people I constantly keep testing and experimenting with..fighters...and other human beings. Not keyboards.
What is insanely insulting is that a ground path, and six direction training can be started in a weekend and a good beginning in a month. Even a simple beginning power-release.
Its basic work and..its wonderful...You make them swear words here.

Dan
P.S. Gents..and Nathan!! My apologies and I'll stay on tract. I can't stand this guy's style. I'll spare you anymore of this. Mark or Nathan you don't have to lock the thread. He can retort- I'll let it go.

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 16:34
Why would Mr. Harden need or want to explain, on a public forum, how he does things? Especially under goading by skeptics and naysayers? There is nothing to prove. My take is that he is just describing an individual experience for others to consider...or not. Why would anyone asking a question be a "skeptic" or a "naysayer"? Some people are genuinely interested in the topic so asking questions should not be disparaged.

Incidentally, do you personally know and/or study with Mr. Harden?

He has trained openly for years with anyone who sincerely wanted to experience these arts. Even if he did describe mechanics, what good would that do? Those of us who have been in the arts for years know that explaining mechanics does no good in words. They must be felt first-hand.Actually, there are quite a number of us who have "been in the arts for years" and who think that explaining mechanics can be a fruitful discussion. If you're suggesting that everyone on the list is a beginner who wouldn't understand, you may be assuming too much. For instance, when I have read Rob John's descriptions of things, I have known pretty much exactly what he was talking about. If there is a common knowledge of the basics, the "terms" are not so important because the basic principles are immutable.

The reasons I'd suggest that Dan explain things is because he obviously wants to contribute, but he is, perhaps unintentionally, leaving the impression that his personal anecdotes are the limits of what he wants to engage in. The real question, in my opinion, is why someone would want to describe things and then balk at describing what is going on physically.

Let me give an example of how to describe simple "rooting", as an attempt to move this conversation forward. People who can root well, and there are a number of them reading this thread, will recognize it as a reasonable basic description. A beginner is going to need some hands-on help, but not everyone reading this thread is a beginner in terms of these skills (and granted there can be people with high "rank" who don't know how to do these things, but that's not always the case by any means).

So if I am standing in a simple stance with one foot forward and someone pushes on my chest, I let my back leg accept as close to 100% responsibility for the incoming force as possible. Since I have some experience and practice in doing these sorts of things the body sets up a path from the back leg and ground up to the point on my chest where I am being pushed. The real issue is this path between the push and the ground. Until it is practiced and conditioned, it's not very effective. But that's a discussion issue for a thread that would be interesting. Another issue might be whether my back leg is stuck back at an angle and is serving more as a brace than as part of a path. That would be another potential discussion issue in a thread that gets beyond the personal anecdotes stage. Anothe issue might be how to manipulate the vector path in response to an incoming force. And so on.

To continually get bogged down with vagaries and pufferies is a waste of time. There are a number of people reading these threads who can take the conversation along the lines I just proposed, but watching several people consistently dominate the threads who don't seem to want to or be able to move the topic forward is frustrating to just about everyone. There are some people, obviously, who have no idea what is going on.... some are actively trying to stymie the conversations and some are actively trying to acquire whatever knowledge they can in intelligent discussions.

The real trick is to get these discussions past the initial obstacles and have a full and satisfying discussion. Perhaps such a thing is not possible on E-Budo. I know that it's possible on some other forums and that's where it might wind up, frankly. But for the moment I suggest that Dan can indeed describe quite well what he's talking about in one way or another.... just as I did above... and he can thereby fruitfully add to the martial arts. Intelligent side issues can be followed (I suggested a few potential tangents), and then the conversation can blossom.

It's premature to call people engaged in a discussion "naysayers" or "skeptics". The terms and principles of these skills are pretty straightforward, so if Dan is attempting to be helpful, he can complete his declarations with at least some simple descriptions in order to further the discussion. To date, he has seemed to prefer to just say he can do these things and that other people who can't do them are somehow lacking. Fine. Let's carry the discussion a little further and show a little martial arts cameraderie.

FWIW

Mike

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 16:59
1.Ground to ground?
2.Power release to power release through the stick?
3.or you using muscle as a training exercise and me using kokyu? Those are good points, Dan. When you described what you did through the stick, you made it vague such that the impression you left was there were no "circumstances" like the 3 you just mentions. So now the question is..."when the guy grabbed the stick, Dan, did he grab it with ground power or did he just use muscle to your kokyu (ground) power? That would help the discussion move forward.
With the first two who knows? You make no bones about the fact that you are not a fighter and don't teach fighting. I, on the other hand am and do. Who would be better in a contest of immediate and sustainable application of kokyu and maniulation of a ground path is anyone's guess. I'm not talking about fighting here ( frankly, I think it would be no contest there) just kokyu skills. Even then I would be less concerned with who is doing these things better, and more to the point that they are being done at all. I have my doubt about you when you keep asking everyone else what it is THEY do.
Since we...didn't invent this stuff. The true credit belongs elsewhere. Which was my hopes in producing the experiment example guys. So we can have a playing field wthout Mike telling you what words fit the Mike manual. Now go back and look at your comments and see how much of them are simply attempts to comment about me personally, Dan. Can you simply drop that part out and discuss the issue? I am asking whether in your anecdote, the guy holding the stick is ground to ground or if he is being a "dummy" for you and offering muscle to your ground path. Very simple; very short. No personalities.
((snip more or the same to save time))[QUOTE]So Mike....can you do these things at that level or not?
How about even the baby steps to get there?
I don't care *what* you do...Please spare me ...
I am frankly not interested in *how* you do what you do either. I have a suspicion you have allot to learn and its why you keep asking *me* for answers.
Can you duplicate that rather basic non-fighting experiment? I don't know, Dan, if I can duplicate what you do. It's sort of like the thing where you said you touch people and induce nausea. It sounds like you have, in some of the instances you describe, cooperative students interactions in some of your descriptions. That's why I pointed to the good conditions you mentioned at the top of the post as examples of how to clarify these conversations, so let's start with clarifying the stick-example above and go from there. In terms of what I can do personally, I'm not sure why you mention that in terms of a discussion of these skills and how to do them. I think there are a number of people reading this thread that know I can do things similar to what you describe, but not necessarily the way that you do them. Since that's indeterminate at the moment, why don't we just go forward with the substantive issues and see how far we can go? And let's leave out all the unnecessary personal comments, shall we?
Forget freestyle? If you push me. I aint going over. And since I have had to learn this over the years with collegiate wrestlers, judoka and my own guys ranging up to 6' 3" 279 lbs. My money is on me that I aint moving and your going for a ride. I had this "discussion" with a 310lb. offensive linemen at the gym two weeks ago. Unlike some people I constantly keep testing and experimenting with..fighters...and other human beings. Not keyboards.
What is insanely insulting is that a ground path, and six direction training can be started in a weekend and a good beginning in a month. Even a simple beginning power-release.
Its basic work and..its wonderful...You make them swear words here.I don't think that asking you pertinent questions about assertions you have made is as negative as all that, Dan. By the way.... the terms "ground path" and "six directions training" are English terms of convenience in order to get around vagaries that involve "ki", "jin", etc., all the time. I think a quick check of the archives of a few forums will show that I was the first to propose them as terms of convenience, long before your recent beginning to use them. I.e., I think I know what you mean about the skills, assuming you and I are talking about the same things. I feel like you have at least a rough grasp of what a "ground path" (kokyu) is, I think six-directions training is more complex than you realize, etc., but the way to settle this in this forum is to simply discuss them as best we can (including Rob and others) and stick to the functional issues without chest-beating or personal attacks.

My opinion, FWIW

Mike Sigman

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 17:47
Hey Josh
Ya never replied about the facia and the golgi response circumventing and beng more rapid then the brain receptor-to-motor nerve response. It was the re-set at the base of the tendon and ligament, I found intriguing. Auto firing quicker than a *thought* response. Stabilizer muscles and not major musecl groups. Interesting.

P.M. If ya want


Me

kimiwane
24th February 2006, 17:51
Adam Hsu's at the top of your list? O_o

Yep. I've admired him for many years.


I'd recommend Sam Chin over him in a heartbeat ;)
Plus he'd be closer to you anyways. (NYC)

What does Sam do? NYC is closer. But I still want to meet Adam Hsu.


I don't necessarily think Mochizuki was missing stuff, but considering the descriptions you gave, it led me to think that it's quite possible you missed out on what he had.

Right. And you think you would just absorb it all? Very few people had such capacity and I was never so dumb as to think I did. Well...not a after a few years with him. Very few people who lived their whole lives in Japan, training with masters, reached his level, so why would I think I did?


As for you holding ground with your statements...um whatever makes you happy dude :p

Well, it doesn't make me so happy that I'd roll my eyes around. Or as happy as a good episode of Matlock, but aren't we all very happy when we see our names attached to some superior-sounding statements? You seem to get a big kick out of it. Why shouldn't I?

Best wishes.

kimiwane
24th February 2006, 17:54
Quote:
I'd recommend Sam Chin over him in a heartbeat
Plus he'd be closer to you anyways. (NYC)


This is true. But you know, Shizuoka is a lot closer to you than NYC is to me. Don't let the day come when someone says, "You were within 100 miles of Kyoichi Murai for many years and you NEVER even met him?????"

Ark will be around awhile. And so will Sam Chin. But you will NEVER get another chance to meet someone like Murai, and Tezuka will also show you things to think about for quite awhile.

Joshua Lerner
24th February 2006, 18:00
Hey Josh
Ya never replied about the facia and the golgi response circumventing and beng more rapid then the brain receptor-to-motor nerve response. It was the re-set at the base of the tendon and ligament, I found intriguing. Auto firing quicker than a *thought* response. Stabilizer muscles and not major musecl groups. Interesting.

P.M. If ya want


Me

I *was* going to try to back off posting here, but how can I turn down an invitation from such a charming sweety? I had some thoughts cross-referencing what you posted about and some of the ideas that David Orange wrote about in the "Aikido, Baby!" thread, but I can't tell if it is a worthwhile tangent or some mental, uh, . . . you know . . . autoeroticism. If I can sift through the ideas to come up with a coherent post, I'll post it over in that thread since it might be more appropriate there. It may be another few days, since I'm going to be busy running around all weekend.

Dan Harden
24th February 2006, 19:14
I was just on the phone with Cady going over the same stuff. She has an appropriate Masters degree for this- as well as Kate- and she had some interesting theories about it too. Whats great is that she had to learn it like I did. The same ol "use long muscle" as we learned it or this "moving fascia"..idea.
But when I hit Cady with Kate's two words about moving fascia; "With what?" it gave her pause. Like she said, I know how to do it. I know what it feels like; but physiologically it should be impossible.
Egg heads

I like the idea of the Golgi re-set. I am trying to figure out if there is reason for the buzz or electric anticipatory feel some may attribute to or call ki. You have the meridian ideas, Kate and Cady are thinking opposing nerve responses from contradictory work...well you and I had mentioned that as well.
I can teach it, and I can feel it- but two of you have the feeling *and* the training to possibly disect it.

Put your thinking hat on

Me

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 19:25
I was just on the phone with Cady going over the same stuff. She has an appropriate Masters degree for this- as well as Kate- and she had some interesting theories about it too. Whats great is that she had to learn it like I did. The same ol "use long muscle" or "moving fascia"..
But when I hit Cady with Kate's two words about moving fascia; "With what?" it gave her pause. Like she said, I know how to do it. I know what it feels like; but physiologically it should be impossible.What are you "moving with fascia", Dan? How do you do it? Where did you learn it? What terms did you use when you learned it, since in earlier posts of mine on AikiWeb and Aikido Journal you seemed confused by the terms and said you used different terms than I do? Maybe if you expand a little bit on what you're doing and how you're doing it, the thread can go somewhere coherent and mesh back into the discussions about Rob, Akuzawa, and Aunkai.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Asura
24th February 2006, 22:16
Rob,
So are there any plans for Ark to do a seminar in the USA? Please keep us posted if anything develops. Thanks.

Hi Dan! Hi Mike! It's good to see everyone still posting. ;)

Take care,

Mark J.

Mark,
Ark definitely wouldn't mind doing something in the US. In fact we were talking about doing something in Cali, so if someone wants to get the ball rolling early and talk about organizing something in the future, feel free to PM me.

Nathan Scott
3rd March 2006, 01:25
How the E-budo moderatores have let you continue to post is beyond me. Thread...hijack..Mike.

Though this thread was heating up a few posts ago, I've yet to see anything inappropriate enough to ban a poster or close the thread (PM me if I missed something). On the other hand, I've not really been reading this thread carefully. I don't know what ya'll are talking about, and with all due respect, am not all that intrigued. But you guys seemed to be enjoying yourself, and someone rated this thread with 5 stars, so I figured more power to ya.

FWIW, even if I were inclined to post to the world everything I know (or more appropriately don't know) about such stuff, I believe the discussion would be misleading at best without hands on - which is why I've discouraged it recently in discussions about DR aiki. That's the big difference between internal methods and external methods, regardless of the experience level of those posting. Sagawa Sensei for example said clearly in Tomei na Chikara that talking about aiki (if that is similar to what you're talking about) is pointless, and I've heard the same from other instructors.

That being said, I would gladly pay you Tuesday to see Mr. Akuzawa fight in the K-1 today. I figure no matter how you look at it, it would be a good time.

Anyway, feel free to disagree with or challenge opinions/comments on this forum. Just keep it reasonably courteous. If the originator of this thread, or the people interested in Aunkai are getting tired of the direction of this discussion, let me know and I'll split this stuff off and make a thread called "interesting sounding if not somewhat obscure terminology" or something! ;)

Yours in abstract diametrically opposed ground paths,

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 02:37
FWIW, even if I were inclined to post to the world everything I know (or more appropriately don't know) about such stuff, I believe the discussion would be misleading at best without hands on - which is why I've discouraged it recently in discussions about DR aiki.Well, I think that's a good discussion point and I tend to disagree to some extent. Certainly "hands-on" is going to be needed to have a really viable discussion, but that's true of most aspects of martial arts, if you think of the limitations of the written word on the internet.

On the other hand, if someone actually knows something about the topics, a lot of information can be exchanged. For instance, I haven't personally met Rob John or Akuzawa (since they're in Japan), but it only took a few rapid exchanges between Rob and I to establish that even though we do things quite differently in approach, the same understanding of the basic principles is more of less there. So we have very fruitful discussions on some of the other lists. It's fairly easy to tell when someone knows something or when someone knows a few things and is blustering about the rest, when someone knows nothing, etc. The trick is to try to constantly go for information exchanges and to gain further insights from someone else with slightly different perspectives.

In the case of a complete neophyte, discussion does almost no good at all without hands-on. However, the beginners can be helped quite a bit by getting an idea of the general layout of things, basic principles, places to look for information sources, and so on. So there's a positive aspect to it for them, too. The only problem I have with some of the internet discussions in relation to neophytes is what I call the "step into my parlour" discussions where some people intimate that they have advanced knowledge and neophytes are invited to come visit because the "secrets" can't be verbalized in public, like on the internet. I have yet to see anyone who really knows very much adopt the "step into my parlour" approach.
That's the big difference between internal methods and external methods, regardless of the experience level of those posting. Sagawa Sensei for example said clearly in Tomei na Chikara that talking about aiki (if that is similar to what you're talking about) is pointless, and I've heard the same from other instructors. Sure, but the discussion between instructors who already know what aiki is can be pretty productive, wouldn't you think? Or do you think "the aiki that can be verbalized cannot be the real aiki"? ;)

That being said, I would gladly pay you Tuesday to see Mr. Akuzawa fight in the K-1 today. I figure no matter how you look at it, it would be a good time. Same here. Although I'd like to give him the benefit of some road-work to get in shape.
Yours in abstract diametrically opposed ground paths,Yours in changing those paths at will.


Mike Sigman

Nathan Scott
3rd March 2006, 21:52
Mr. Sigman,

It seems your post just confirmed my point. Meeting someone in person and playing around will confirm or deny that you are both on the same page. Short of that, your "ground path" and my "ground path" may feel completely different, even though we may think we are talking about the same thing verbally (written). Hence the need to confirm common ground physically before fruitful discussion can be had (IMO). In other words, Daito-ryu, for example, may or may not use internal elements that you call something else, or, you yourself are not aware of from your background. There's no way of telling over the internet.


Sure, but the discussion between instructors who already know what aiki is can be pretty productive, wouldn't you think? Or do you think "the aiki that can be verbalized cannot be the real aiki"?

Well, that exact quote has been stated by some Daito-ryu instructors. The problem I see though is that, depending on your level of understanding or initiation in aiki, you will have a different definition of what it is or isn't. This is quite clear by all the seemingly opposed definitions given by qualified instructors. They could all be wrong, or they could all be right on different levels. One thing I've been told though is that the senior exponents of aiki believe that development in aiki has unlimited potential, which means that your own definition will change continuously throughout your lifetime. This difference in initiation, development, and understanding therefore makes discussion of what it is or isn't very difficult, in my opinion, to the point of making it pointless (and misleading from my experience and observation).

You want to know what it is people? It's easy - humble up and start over again under a qualified and skilled instructor in the art. You want to talk about it? Talk about it with those you train with who are using the same terminology and experiencing the same things you are. Learning what other do is alays interesting, but do you want to do your own thing, or learn how the art you study does it?

FWIW, my observation is that the vast majority of those digging at the technical aspects of these arts publicly and privately are either not students of the art, or, simply do not have or are not willing to train under a teacher. Easily remedied for the serious minded enthusiast! ;)

Just my opinion,

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 22:23
It seems your post just confirmed my point. Meeting someone in person and playing around will confirm or deny that you are both on the same page. Short of that, your "ground path" and my "ground path" may feel completely different, even though we may think we are talking about the same thing verbally (written). Hence the need to confirm common ground physically before fruitful discussion can be had (IMO). In other words, Daito-ryu, for example, may or may not use internal elements that you call something else, or, you yourself are not aware of from your background. There's no way of telling over the internet. Well, I understand what you're saying, but I don't fully agree (although to some limited extent I do). These things that are being loosely referred to as "internal" follow an immutable logic both in theory and actuality. For instance, someone may have a general grasp of what a "groundpath" is, but as they continue talking, they either adhere to that logic or wander off and try to fill in the gaps with jargon that they can't physically describe. All of this stuff can be physically described, even though it might get somewhat complex. Given enough exchange (in dialogue) and given the immutability of these phenomena, two knowledgeable people can certainly establish a graspable dialogue. Where the dialogue will fail is if someone simply doesn't have enough of a grasp of the basic principles (say, for instance, a neophyte).

The elements of these things are actually codified, to a greater or lesser extent, in some Japanese literature and a lot of Chinese literature. There could be no codification if these were loose and subjectively interpretted phenomena. I could go to some of the literature by and about Ueshiba and grab a number of instances where he is using long-established terms to describe these phenomena. And then I could go to Chinese literature and grab exactly (or very close to exact) the same commentaries. In other words, everyone is talking about a recognized and described set of phenomena, but you're positing (I assume) some sort of "secrets" that somehow involve some of the basic elements of so-called "internal" strength and yet exceed the basic parameters. It would be interesting to hear, even vaguely, of an example of that. ;)
Well, that exact quote has been stated by some Daito-ryu instructors. The problem I see though is that, depending on your level of understanding or initiation in aiki, you will have a different definition of what it is or isn't. This is quite clear by all the seemingly opposed definitions given by qualified instructors. They could all be wrong, or they could all be right on different levels. One thing I've been told though is that the senior exponents of aiki believe that development in aiki has unlimited potential, which means that your own definition will change continuously throughout your lifetime. This difference in initiation, development, and understanding therefore makes discussion of what it is or isn't very difficult, in my opinion, to the point of making it pointless (and misleading from my experience and observation). Well, I understand your position. I hope that you understand mine... people who actually know these things to a moderate degree should be able to communicate with each other, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think that each person is using different principles for their "internal" abilities?
You want to know what it is people? It's easy - humble up and start over again under a qualified and skilled instructor in the art. You want to talk about it? Talk about it with those you train with who are using the same terminology and experiencing the same things you are. Learning what other do is alays interesting, but do you want to do your own thing, or learn how the art you study does it?

FWIW, my observation is that the vast majority of those digging at the technical aspects of these arts publicly and privately are either not students of the art, or, simply do not have or are not willing to train under a teacher. Easily remedied for the serious minded enthusiast! ;) Fair enough. I have my own opinions about some of these discussions, but I can't see how it's productive in furthering useful discourse.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

P Goldsbury
3rd March 2006, 23:34
The elements of these things are actually codified, to a greater or lesser extent, in some Japanese literature and a lot of Chinese literature. There could be no codification if these were loose and subjectively interpretted phenomena. I could go to some of the literature by and about Ueshiba and grab a number of instances where he is using long-established terms to describe these phenomena.

Mr Sigman,

I have followed the discussions about Ueshiba in this forum and in the Aikiweb and AJ forums. I do not have any knowledge of Chinese sources because I do not read Chinese, but I can read and understand Japanese and am familiar with the writings of Morihei Ueshiba. You have suggested that John Stevens, for example, mistranslated Ueshiba's douka because he did not understand the 'code words' that Ueshiba was supposedly using. So it might be that I, also, have mistranslated Ueshiba.

Apart from Stevens, other persons who have translated Ueshiba's writings into English are Kazuaki Tanahashi & Roy Maurer Jr (working as a pair) in the 1975 Aikido volume written by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, and Larry & Seiko Bieri (also working as a pair), who translated Budo Renshu . Since their translations appear to be similar to those of John Stevens in certain crucial respects, it might be that they also have mistranslated Ueshiba.

So, since your position is clearly against the current, so to speak, perhaps you need to give more evidence . I have seen little evidence, as far (unless I have missed anything in Aikiweb or AJ). The Japanese language texts by Ueshiba with which I am familiar are Takemusu Aiki, first published in 1986, and Aiki Shinzui, published in 2002.

I am more interested in writings by Ueshiba himself than writings about Ueshiba, since it might be that the authors of these writings misinterpreted Ueshiba. Thank you in advance.

To Mr Scott,

This thread is about Aunkai / Akuzawa, but I have made the above post here because Mr Sigman himself raised the matter (see quote). I am quite happy if you split this thread into two or more parts, since the discussion about Ueshiba's writings might become rather intricate and be of little appeal to those who do not understand Japanese.

Best wishes,

kimiwane
3rd March 2006, 23:37
I would gladly pay you Tuesday to see Mr. Akuzawa fight in the K-1 today. I figure no matter how you look at it, it would be a good time.

Akuzawa san is 39 years old, I believe. He's a bit too vintage for that kind of thing, I think. But he has a student named Rob who's just about the right age...I nominate him.

mikesigman@eart
4th March 2006, 00:06
Peter, I'll move this discussion to a more suitable venue, since it's tangential to the current thread. I'll put it in "Aikido".

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Nathan Scott
4th March 2006, 06:17
Mr. Goldsbury,

No worries. Nice to hear from you again.

Mr. Sigman,

It sounds like we understand each other for the most part, and I've got no problem agreeing to disagree, but I think there is one point that I haven't been successful with:


In other words, everyone is talking about a recognized and described set of phenomena, but you're positing (I assume) some sort of "secrets" that somehow involve some of the basic elements of so-called "internal" strength and yet exceed the basic parameters. It would be interesting to hear, even vaguely, of an example of that.

Each of the koryu has a set of "secrets", which I prefer to call internal transmission (mongai fushutsu) so that it does not sound too melodramatic or paranoid. They are an intergral part of koryu, even if a ryu-ha's secrets end up being common knowledge to the rest of the world. The fact that others don't know what the "gokui" of your art is becomes more important than the gokui itself (in many cases), giving the exponents of the art an edge.

Anyway, in regards to talking about stuff my basic point is not that there are secret internal methods that you don't know about (though that could be as well), but that it is possible that an exponent of one art could be thinking of something different than you when trying to use discuss experiences using common terminology. How could you possibly expect to have a 100% clear understanding of the internal principles you're talking about when many of them are ones you all have termed and defined yourself without demonstrating them on the rest of us hands on first? Yes, once you've hooked up with someone, showed them what your doing, and said "I call this grounding", you have a common framework to speak within. I suggest you tour the world and hold seminars so that all of us hanging out on the internet may formulate a common frame of reference! ;)

I'm suggesting that outer techniques, such as kotegaeshi or tsubamegaeshi, can be explained reasonably. Internal forms must be felt to ensure that we are talking about the same thing. There is no guarentee that we are, even if it may appear similar by looking at it being performed.

Japanese terminology is often somewhat standardized, at least these days, but was not always so, and many still are being used with different meanings or have different meanings based on the context it is being used within. Kokyu is an example of this. As another example, some arts define aiki simply as the situation in which you and your opponent mirror each others postures physically. Some use different kanji for the same thing homophone, which may not be here or there, or, may be quite significant.

Anyway, I hope my point is a little clearer. Back to the off-topic discussions,

mikesigman@eart
4th March 2006, 15:20
Each of the koryu has a set of "secrets", which I prefer to call internal transmission (mongai fushutsu) so that it does not sound too melodramatic or paranoid. They are an intergral part of koryu, even if a ryu-ha's secrets end up being common knowledge to the rest of the world. The fact that others don't know what the "gokui" of your art is becomes more important than the gokui itself (in many cases), giving the exponents of the art an edge.

Anyway, in regards to talking about stuff my basic point is not that there are secret internal methods that you don't know about (though that could be as well), but that it is possible that an exponent of one art could be thinking of something different than you when trying to use discuss experiences using common terminology. How could you possibly expect to have a 100% clear understanding of the internal principles you're talking about when many of them are ones you all have termed and defined yourself without demonstrating them on the rest of us hands on first? Yes, once you've hooked up with someone, showed them what your doing, and said "I call this grounding", you have a common framework to speak within. I suggest you tour the world and hold seminars so that all of us hanging out on the internet may formulate a common frame of reference! ;) I take your points, although I don't see the need for the digressions into personal commentary.
I'm suggesting that outer techniques, such as kotegaeshi or tsubamegaeshi, can be explained reasonably. Internal forms must be felt to ensure that we are talking about the same thing. There is no guarentee that we are, even if it may appear similar by looking at it being performed.

Japanese terminology is often somewhat standardized, at least these days, but was not always so, and many still are being used with different meanings or have different meanings based on the context it is being used within. Kokyu is an example of this. As another example, some arts define aiki simply as the situation in which you and your opponent mirror each others postures physically. Some use different kanji for the same thing homophone, which may not be here or there, or, may be quite significant.

Anyway, I hope my point is a little clearer. Back to the off-topic discussions,I see your point, sort of, but I think the whole "koryu" thing often gets inflated. Most of the koryu appear to be "mini-martial-arts-styles" and in effect are no different than any other "martial-art-style". They have (1.)techniques and strategies and they have (2.) training and conditioning methods. We're talking about (2.), at the moment.

Looking at Karl Friday's book "Legacies of the Sword", I see essentially a form of "mini-style" and I see that although he doesn't appear to understand the references and history of some of his own commentary about conditioning and training, the style also involves some of the standard ki and kokyu training. Those trainings have a reasonably finite number of expressions and the logic tying them together is, as I opined, pretty much immutable. I.e., there are only a certain number of things he can do with them and the development of them follows a certain logic. Mr. Friday mentions using reiki-no-ho for development of the same power that "kokyu ho dosa" would do in Aikido. This form of kokyu development (or its variations) seems to be fairly common throughout the koryu arts. The words may shift slightly in Japanese, but probably the case you're mentioning in English about different terms can be for a variety of reasons. The point is, I think there's a commonality and I'd be surprised, based on the samples I now know of, if there was anything truly unusual in terms of training and conditioning in the koryu.

Not that I know it all, either. There can be extraordinary body-tricks like the startle-shaking of Southern White Crane injected into various martial arts... but my point is that until I'm shown some major difference from the general principles, the evidence seems to support the idea that commonalities prevail.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman

Nathan Scott
4th March 2006, 17:45
Mr. Sigman,


I don't see the need for the digressions into personal commentary.

It wasn't my intention to attack you personally in my comments. I was simply trying to speak objectively, allowing for various possibilities in both directions. I don't presume that you are new to the arts or inexperienced. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I have also been around for a while, and have experience in CMA, but would be the first to acknowledge that there may be something in CMA that I'm not aware of, based on things like differences in training methods and differences in using the body.

Thinking of koryu as mini-arts may be a good way of thinking of them, and I agree that koryu arts do get inflated. There are what we call "koryu wankers", and then there are those who don't study or understand koryu, projecting their own experience base on what they think it is, and as a result get defensive and pissed off when told things that are different than they expect or when told that certain things will not be explained. Two sides to every coin.

I know Professor Friday's book well. FWIW, there is one big difference between reiki no ho and kokyu dosa, from what I've gathered. Reiki no ho is trained differently with a slightly different focus on development. The shite in reiki no ho, at least in the beginning levels, apparently raises their hands up until uke's hands break off their wrists. There are things you would learn from this that you would not learn from the kokyu dosa in aikido, which is nearly a pointless exercise (the way it is done). But yeah, they probably would produce similar results if performed correctly (aside from what I noted).

Anyway, it sounds like we understand each other. You would rather risk the possibility of miscommunicating with others about these techniques and principles, assuming that more than likely you already know what Aunkai methods and Daito-ryu aiki is, than play it safe and talk to a select few about your observations after having had hands on exchanges to establish a solid frame of reference. Fair enough ya'll. Have at it. Either way you might meet some interesting people along the way.

Off to the dojo,

mikesigman@eart
4th March 2006, 18:08
It wasn't my intention to attack you personally in my comments. I was simply trying to speak objectively, allowing for various possibilities in both directions. I don't presume that you are new to the arts or inexperienced. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I have also been around for a while, and have experience in CMA, but would be the first to acknowledge that there may be something in CMA that I'm not aware of, based on things like differences in training methods and differences in using the body. I didn't say anything about an "attack". I just think that we can discuss the current topic without making veiled references to each other. That's usually how topics deteriorate and why moderators are needed. For instance, there's no need for me to make oblique references about you, my impressions of you, your style, or whatever, as long as there is an exchange of valid information about the topic, right? :)
Thinking of koryu as mini-arts may be a good way of thinking of them, and I agree that koryu arts do get inflated. There are what we call "koryu wankers", and then there are those who don't study or understand koryu, projecting their own experience base on what they think it is, and as a result get defensive and pissed off when told things that are different than they expect or when told that certain things will not be explained. Two sides to every coin. Well, then I suggest that there would be less misunderstanding if factual commentary and rebuttal is offered, rather than the "you wouldn't understand" stuff. True, many things have to be felt, but if I'm speaking with an obviously experienced (from reading a number of knowledgeable commentaries leaving no other conclusion) martial artist who knows the various training methods, principles, etc., I don't feel I have to toss everything into the "you wouldn't know unless I showed you" bin. ;)

For instance, within the wider purview of Asian martial arts that uses these ki and "kei"/kokyu types of body skills/conditioning, the idea of "aiki" is not unknown at all. I think I posted an example of Chen Fa Ke using the essential "aiki" to neutralize a wrestler on another thread somewhere on E-Budo. If someone wants to say it's not "aiki", I can debate it to basics in a very few sentences. Or I can post Inaba Sensei's interview and rigorously take it back to show that no other version of "aiki" is truly different. That's what discussions are for.... the exchange of information. You and I can both comfort ourselves with the idea that open discussions help the general martial populace while at the same time entertaining the idea that it doesn't matter what is said publicly, until someone is shown personally, they won't really know how to do these things. :rolleyes:
I know Professor Friday's book well. FWIW, there is one big difference between reiki no ho and kokyu dosa, from what I've gathered. Reiki no ho is trained differently with a slightly different focus on development. The shite in reiki no ho, at least in the beginning levels, apparently raises their hands up until uke's hands break off their wrists. There are things you would learn from this that you would not learn from the kokyu dosa in aikido, which is nearly a pointless exercise (the way it is done). But yeah, they probably would produce similar results if performed correctly (aside from what I noted). Either one, assuming it's done correctly, will produce and condition "jin", the essence of "kokyu power". Just knowing that they both use "kokyu power" or "jin" and that every Asian martial arts does, too, should allow someone to extrapolate that the general principles of power usage share a large commonality within Asian martial arts. If someone knows the principals of that power and someone knows how to develop the additive power of "ki" through breathing and other exercises, it's not a matter of "what secret power does this art have?", but "how does this art use and train these common powers?".
Anyway, it sounds like we understand each other. You would rather risk the possibility of miscommunicating with others about these techniques and principles, assuming that more than likely you already know what Aunkai methods and Daito-ryu aiki is, than play it safe and talk to a select few about your observations after having had hands on exchanges to establish a solid frame of reference. Fair enough ya'll. Have at it. Either way you might meet some interesting people along the way. Well, not everyone has access to all sources of information and it doesn't hurt to contribute data to the martial arts community, assuming someone really cares about promoting martial arts practices of good quality. Besides, I've been in the position where I couldn't get useable information myself and I always appreciated someone sharing what they could. I always remember those days when I could get no information and when I promised myself that If I ever got even the rudiments (which is about what I have), I'd share what I could.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Nathan Scott
6th March 2006, 06:54
Hello,


Well, then I suggest that there would be less misunderstanding if factual commentary and rebuttal is offered, rather than the "you wouldn't understand" stuff.

Hmmm, can't say I've seen this attitude specifically. What I have seen is koryu wankers acting snobby and looking down on gendai arts, and I've seen the non-wankers trying to explain various aspects of koryu arts only to be attacked for their efforts or told they were just wrong. But I really don't think the incapacity to comprehend what is in koryu is an issue (?).


For instance, within the wider purview of Asian martial arts that uses these ki and "kei"/kokyu types of body skills/conditioning, the idea of "aiki" is not unknown at all.

Cool, I'm glad ya'll have figured out and have been able to define aiki (something the senior exponents of aiki have not been able to do) and share physical comparisons with the various CMA principles. As I've said before, I'm sure there are things in CMA that I was taught, and haven't seen before, but I can say for a fact that I've never seen exponents of any other art perform Daito-ryu aiki outside of Daito-ryu (or those who have borrowed directy from Daito-ryu). But I'm always open to the unknown.

For the most part, it seems to me we are beginning to talk in circles around the same points, so there is no benefit in repeating the same points again. Maybe it is a difference in how we've both been taught and have developed in our respective martial arts, but it seems we think differently on a few things.


Well, not everyone has access to all sources of information and it doesn't hurt to contribute data to the martial arts community, assuming someone really cares about promoting martial arts practices of good quality.

This is another point we don't agree on. I sympathize to some degree with those who don't have immediate access to qualified instruction, but on the other hand I am one of many who have made and continue to make significant sacrifices to ensure continued learning opportunities. Information like this doesn't come easy, and probably shouldn't come easy. I don't see how making all the teachings of the various martial arts public knowledge will benefit the specific arts. I've yet to be really impressed by any of the modern hybrid arts, and have a lot of respect (and enjoy) the Japanese traditions, who need loyal students to transmit the art in tact to future generations. Contributing data to the martial arts community tends to draw more opportunists and frauds than anything else (not speaking about you specifically).

Regards.

jss
6th March 2006, 16:02
FWIW, there is one big difference between reiki no ho and kokyu dosa, from what I've gathered. Reiki no ho is trained differently with a slightly different focus on development. The shite in reiki no ho, at least in the beginning levels, apparently raises their hands up until uke's hands break off their wrists. There are things you would learn from this that you would not learn from the kokyu dosa in aikido, which is nearly a pointless exercise (the way it is done). But yeah, they probably would produce similar results if performed correctly (aside from what I noted).
And how would you describe the average kokyu dosa in aikido?
Is the problem that most ukes are too cooperative?

Nathan Scott
8th March 2006, 07:05
And how would you describe the average kokyu dosa in aikido?
Is the problem that most ukes are too cooperative?

Well, cooperative uke's are a problem in all areas of aikido, IMO. Let me ask you this - what is the purpose of kokyu dosa? To improve tanden usage, hip usage, etc? Of the small technical curriculum of aikido, why were techniques like kokyu dosa and tenchinage included? I don't mean to sound so cryptic, but I'm not comfortable with explaining my point of view on techniques. I'd simply suggest that little to no benefit is being gained from the way techiques such as these are currently be practiced (in general).

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
8th March 2006, 14:10
Well, in my opinion, cooperative, stuborn, whatever doesn't make that big a difference in kokyu ho. It's an exercise, in most cases, not a technique per say. Now, there are specific techniques used (10 to be exact) in the yoshinkan/doshinkan syllibus of kokyu ho. One that would be recognized easily is tenchinage, most of the others would probably be called kokyu nage of one sort or another. The first 3 though, are in my mind at least, exercises, not really 'waza'. They follow the format of fairly standard kokyu ho when uke is pulling, pushing and holding, and it would seem that the most important features to learn are;

the shapes that shite makes with the hands
coordinated breathing
use of the hips
moving from kneeling

In no particular order. I'm not even getting into the ground path things that I believe are probably the most important thing to learn, because I have no idea how to talk about that.

Best,
Ron

jss
8th March 2006, 15:33
Nathan, thanks for the reply. I read in your previous posts that you don't like to discuss technical specifics and I respect that. So feel free to respond or not to the following.

Kokyu ho to me is an exercise of dealing with a push with as little 'technique' as possible. There are all kinds of nifty ways to throw someone who grabs your wrists, but that is not the point here. In the basic form of kokyu ho there is virtually no arm movement, so that you learn to deal with the force of the push with your whole body.

Is there a specific reason why you mentioned tenchi nage? I like to think that all aikido techniques are different manifestations of the basics you learn in kokyu ho. (If I could just learn to actually do aikido that way. :rolleyes:)

Ron, could you please describe those three non-waza kokyu ho of Yoshinkan? I train Aikikai-style and we only push or hold lightly (too lightly).

Walker
8th March 2006, 18:34
A couple of thoughts about suwari waza kokyu dosa which I feel is a huge study and a great laboratory. Yes, it is an exercise, but we should strive to derive full benefit from our exercise. I see it as a laboratory because some of the variables have been reduced so we can focus on some important things. I think foremost would be learning to feel each other while applying pressure.

One of the first things I learned was that uke should win. It is much easier to grab a guys hands and pin them to his lap or push him over. As a beginner, shite is usually easily upended as soon as he begins to move if not before. In other words he is full of holes that can be exploited by uke. Only by learning to hold his structure and move correctly from that structure can shite hope to complete the exercise.

Not to put words in Nathan's mouth, but unless there is some equality in the exercise (that is uke is not passive) we are not deriving full benefit from it. Also this is not to say that there isn't plenty more to explore and all sorts of defined experiments that can be run and refined in the venue of kokyu dosa.

Ron Tisdale
8th March 2006, 18:58
Ron, could you please describe those three non-waza kokyu ho of Yoshinkan? I train Aikikai-style and we only push or hold lightly (too lightly).


Hi Joep,

I'm a little uncomfortable with too many details in this format, but let's try a few...

Uke should grip firmly, and really pull, push or hold as appropriate.

In number one (pull) shite should move from hips first, then arms. It is up to shite to set the distance correctly so that when the hands are offered, your arms are basically in kamae (I guess the unbendable arm might be a good reference) already. If the distance is correct, then the arms will move appropriately when you leave seiza and go to live toes, and shift your hips forward. Follow the line of uke's shoulder blades with your tegatana as you cut up. Standard hombu dojo yoshinkan would be (I believe) to cut up lifting uke with their elbows bent, shuffle to the side to completely unbalance them, then cut down and pin. Another variation (some would say more martial) would be to cross-step in and cut out right after raising uke up.

In number two (pushing) the important thing is not to let the hands move back. Shite's hands make an omega sign (kind of). Think hands start with palms facing each other, then face mostly up, a little out to the side, then a circle up. Kind of hard to describe.

Number three (holding) the hands go flat palms up, then up into the shoulder area of uke as in number one.

In all of these, shite should time uke's breathing before offering the hands. Uke tends to be weakest at the beginning of an inhale...if you time that with your own exhale, you are strong, they are weak. A variation might be...they are at the end of an inhale, so you inhale strongly to continue their inhale while they are already 'full', before they exhale and express their power. I'm sure there are many other timings with the breathing that can work as well. Something fun to play with when someone is large, strong, and has good breath control, is to use their pulse to time the movement and find some weakness.

Best,
Ron (another answer is, I have no clue, get on the mat and figure it out with your instructor... ;) )

Josh Reyer
8th March 2006, 19:22
When I worked out with Rob John, we did suwariwaza kokyuho at full strength, really trying keep the other person from executing the technique. I found it was a very good way to get a feel for moving without strength, of trying to get connected and then utilizing kokyu/ki/jin/whathaveyou to move your arms. It gave me insight on why Iwama style (and perhaps Yoshinkan as well, Ron?) normally trains from a solid grab.

So, there's that.

And yet, when we do suwariwaza kokyuho, we don't use a solid grab. Which I find odd. Tachiwaza morotetori kokyuho/kokyunage is done with a very solid grab, but not suwariwaza kokyuho... And apparently it's not done with a strong grip in Yoshinkan, either. IIRC, a light grip is suggested in Ueshiba's Budo, is it not? (I no longer have the book at hand.)

So I got to wondering, why that would be? Then I got to thinking about what Ellis Amdur wrote in his Aikido Journal blog "Aikido is Three Peaches", about how Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba switched the conventional roles of uke-shite/teacher-student in koryu. (I.e., in koryu the teacher was uke and the student was shite, but in DTRAJJ and Aikido the teacher is shite and the student is uke.) So my kernel of an idea is, maybe the focus in suwariwaza kokyuho is not on shite. Maybe it's on uke. Maybe uke should be getting the most out of it. And maybe uke's job is not to be thrown, but rather to be connected and centered. I think of all the demonstrations where Takeda/Ueshiba/Shioda simply kneels and seiza and someone tries to push them to no avail. Perhaps that's what the purpose of kokyuho is, and perhaps that's why uke isn't supposed to use force to restrain shite...

I dunno. It's a just an idea, but maybe something to play around with through the years...

Josh Reyer
8th March 2006, 19:25
Ah, so uke does utilize a strong grip and force in Yoshinkan? I suppose that blows my theory out of the water...

Ron Tisdale
8th March 2006, 19:45
Well, strong grip? I would say grip firmly. Uses force? Well, I think my seniors would say they are giving a good firm grasp, and a strong push, pull whatever when they take ukemi for me. I guess it sounds like semantics, but I'm not quite comfortable with the way you phrased that. Again...I think kokyu ho at that level is an exercise...not waza...I don't think I can state that enough...it's one of the few things I'm relatively sure of.

Best,
Ron (anyhoo, what do I know...) :rolleyes:

Josh Reyer
8th March 2006, 20:10
Well, strong grip? I would say grip firmly. Uses force? Well, I think my seniors would say they are giving a good firm grasp, and a strong push, pull whatever when they take ukemi for me. I guess it sounds like semantics, but I'm not quite comfortable with the way you phrased that. Again...I think kokyu ho at that level is an exercise...not waza...I don't think I can state that enough...it's one of the few things I'm relatively sure of.

Best,
Ron (anyhoo, what do I know...) :rolleyes:

By force I simply met energy: a push, a pull. I wasn't suggesting an applied technique (like, say, shihonage), but trying to get a handle for the level of resistance from uke in the exercise.

Ron Tisdale
8th March 2006, 20:27
Gotcha. There is definately a push, a pull, or a hold...active, not just sitting there holding on loosely.

I think the level of force (energy) can vary depending on the partners. Some of my seniors really push my limits...I don't consider myself all that good, so I really try not to 'resist' much at all when working with Jr.s, as I think they can learn best from the other instructors (3rd dan and up). When working with people around the same level, sometimes 'resist more', sometimes not, depending on what we are working on.

The idea of resistence and force can be an issue in developing what I would consider really good aikido. The branch dojo I came up in was a little rough and tumble at one point...a lot of people strong in other martial arts. Some of that 'resistance' was maybe not so good for my aikido. Since moving full time to the doshinkan headquarters, I've had to make some changes in my keiko to keep up with my changing ideas of what really good aikido is. But don't get me wrong...working with people strong in other arts definately helped my 'Martial Art' practice...

Best,
Ron

Asura
8th March 2006, 21:38
In all of these, shite should time uke's breathing before offering the hands. Uke tends to be weakest at the beginning of an inhale...if you time that with your own exhale, you are strong, they are weak. A variation might be...they are at the end of an inhale, so you inhale strongly to continue their inhale while they are already 'full', before they exhale and express their power. I'm sure there are many other timings with the breathing that can work as well. Something fun to play with when someone is large, strong, and has good breath control, is to use their pulse to time the movement and find some weakness.

Best,
Ron (another answer is, I have no clue, get on the mat and figure it out with your instructor... ;) )

Just quick commentary, (this isn't a criticism), but I've found that while playing with the timing of breathing etc can be interesting, ultimately you're trying to study how to affect the other person on contact. So you need to be able to disrupt their structure whether they're at their strongest or weakest.

When I was working with Josh I was showing him that you have to be able to do it even when the guy is holding you down full blast.
In training though you do it using all grades of pressure, from weak to strong. Using simple weight, using the spine, taking out the spine and just holding with the lower back etc etc.
I'd say that both Uke and Shite need to have equal emphasis.

Uke studies how the energy enters his body, and then eventually learns how to neutralize different kinds of structures/energies

Shite learns how to affect Uke no matter what he does to him.

Like someone mentioned earlier it's only a training tool. I can use the same principal of agete in a punch/strike which contains a highly disruptive kuzushi force with it at the same time.

I think many people get too enamoured over the "techniques" of kokyu dosa instead of studying the core component that drives them (I'm not singling out anyone here so don't bust out the flame throwers yet).
My take is that you try and do the simplest movement possible (simply raise the hands, no twisting, no making shapes with the hands etc) and still affect the person. If you get blockage in your shoulder, or somewhere else then its your job to study how to get rid of it internally so you form a clear path to the other person :)

Ron Tisdale
8th March 2006, 21:49
Very good post Rob, and absolutely no offense taken. As I was writing these posts I kept thinking about Sagawa Sensei saying that working with the breath is a dead end. ;) But I have found it helpfull in some ways (might be more so if I would quit smoking! :( ). When I mentioned timing the breath, please note that this is done before you offer the hands, so before the contact is made. At the instant of contact...that is when the effect must be had.

While I don't recall ever having formal yoshinkan/doshinkan training where someone is forcefully holding you down statically, I did have a visitor try that once. I was surprised how easy it was to deal with. Daito ryu seems to do more of that, and I have seen it in other styles of aikido. I'm also glad you talked about those other things that I don't really feel able to speak to.

Thanks again for the post!

Best,
Ron

Walker
9th March 2006, 00:22
Ron,

One thing that occurs to me regarding your use of breath as a signal for timing is the suggestion to look for the "holes" (suki) I mentioned earlier regardless of whether or not they coordinated with any point in the breath cycle. Feel/search for the suki and fill it when it appears. I think kokyu dosa is a great venue for that study. A kind of look and you will find type thing.

I have found that as you start finding suki after firm contact has been established you can refine that awareness to include immediately taking advantage of the suki at the moment of contact or even before.

Nathan Scott
9th March 2006, 06:39
Is there a specific reason why you mentioned tenchi nage?

Yes, because most of the core techniques Ueshiba Sensei borrowed to make aikido are practical and versatile, allowing for applications in pretty much any type of attack. They involve the major locking principles. Tenchinage from a practical technique standpoint is quite limited in scope, which keys me to think there may be some other reason it was included in the curriculum. I have my own theory about that, but what is interesting is I asked the posters on the Aikido Journal forum when it first opened up what they thought of tenchinage, and the answers were what I had expected (the thread is probably still there somewhere). A common one was "if the crappy lock commonly used for the upper hand breaks off during the technique, simply change to a straight arm throw". We already have a straight arm throw - it's called iriminage.

I for one hated tenchinage for many years, because I couldn't get it to work well and thought it was a stupid technique (hey, I was a younger!). Once I started getting the idea, I found it was a superior technique and training method.

Honestly, I've learned things about aikido technique from sources outside of aikido. But I for one don't think "fixing" aikido by adding things to it that Ueshiba Sensei himself seems to have not known is the way to go. Not speaking about what I know per se, but for example, applying what someone like Sagawa Sensei said or did into aikido techniques. Different levels of initiation and experience, and different results in their training. Ueshiba's aikido worked for him - why fix it with principles or methods he didn't use himself?

And BTW, someone brought up how "Sokaku changed the role of shite and uke in Daito-ryu from the way koryu systems trained". Much of what we talk about on forums like this, including blogs, are pure speculation. Often from those outside the systems being discussed. It's all useful and interesting, but we have to be careful about drawing hard conclusions from such discussions.

How do we know this was Sokaku's idea and that koryu never trained that way? How many koryu existed in Japanese history that have died off and been lost compared to how many are alive now? How many other Japanese traditional ryu-ha, outside of Daito-ryu aiki, are still alive that are based largely on internal teachings? I think it would be foolish to assume Daito-ryu is the first and only "internal" system used in Japan. But just because it has ended up being the only extant internal traditional Japanese system doesn't mean that Sokaku necessarily made up the training method. If you think about it, how else could you learn internal teachings without receiving the techniques repeatedly? How did Sokaku get so skilled at it? It's pretty easy math - it is quite likely that this was how Sokaku was taught (his teacher threw him more than the other way around), and as such, this is how he taught his own students.

But hey, I'm just speculating... :D

Regards,

Josh Reyer
9th March 2006, 15:59
Honestly, I've learned things about aikido technique from sources outside of aikido. But I for one don't think "fixing" aikido by adding things to it that Ueshiba Sensei himself seems to have not known is the way to go. Not speaking about what I know per se, but for example, applying what someone like Sagawa Sensei said or did into aikido techniques. Different levels of initiation and experience, and different results in their training. Ueshiba's aikido worked for him - why fix it with principles or methods he didn't use himself?

Well, first, because Ueshiba's aikido worked for him, but it doesn't seem to work for everyone else. Indeed, "Ueshiba's aikido" may not even exist.


And BTW, someone brought up how "Sokaku changed the role of shite and uke in Daito-ryu from the way koryu systems trained". Much of what we talk about on forums like this, including blogs, are pure speculation. Often from those outside the systems being discussed. It's all useful and interesting, but we have to be careful about drawing hard conclusions from such discussions.

That would be me, but what I precisely said was
Then I got to thinking about what Ellis Amdur wrote in his Aikido Journal blog "Aikido is Three Peaches", about how Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba switched the conventional roles of uke-shite/teacher-student in koryu. (I.e., in koryu the teacher was uke and the student was shite, but in DTRAJJ and Aikido the teacher is shite and the student is uke.). I'm not taking what Ellis said as holy gospel, but that I took this suggestion from him as cue to think "outside the box". IOW, not to consider uke as simply a live practice dummy (the standard view), but to consider that while some exercises may be set up to provide shite with a particular skill/ability, other exercises may be set up to provide something for uke instead.

Mark Jakabcsin
9th March 2006, 22:16
Ueshiba's aikido worked for him - why fix it with principles or methods he didn't use himself?




Nathan,

Good point.....BUT, are you sure today's Aikido is teaching the principles Ueshiba Sensei used? Are you sure that Ueshiba Sensei taught all of the principles he used and that those he taught likewise passed them on? Could it be possible that he didn't share everything and held somethings back? Is it possible he did some principles so naturally that he didn't pass it along since it was just him, ie obvious and no need to teach? Some of those seem at least plausible to me, hence it can be fruitful to look around at others that tread some of the same dirt as Uesiba and see what they have to offer.

Just a thought,

Mark J.

kimiwane
10th March 2006, 00:03
Nathan,

Good point.....BUT, are you sure today's Aikido is teaching the principles Ueshiba Sensei used?

I'm convinced that what has changed is the roles of uke and nage. Uke doesn't generally attack realistically and tends to fall for "gestures" instead of techniques. And since uke will fall for anything, nage never develops realistic technique.

Of course, in a dojo where there is a realistic relation and interaction between uke and nage, this would be different, but only to the extent that the techniques are really meaningful.

Nathan Scott
13th March 2006, 20:27
Mark,

I think it is clear that, for the most part, Ueshiba Sensei didn't "teach". Teacher is an imperfect translation of "Sensei" (one who has walked already) and it's related titles, as I'm sure you know. Explaining techniques and concepts outright is a western teaching method, not an eastern one. "Sensei" like Takeda and Ueshiba simply taught traditionally. The problem is not with their teaching method, but with those who were not able to get much out of it, probably because Ueshiba followed Takeda's philosophy of "it's o.k. to teach the art widely, but only teach (aka: offer inner methods up to be stolen by those capable) to a couple of students the real methods". Aikido wasn't intended to be taught, it was intended to be studied and trained. The students have to do the work themselves, just like the more traditional lines of Daito-ryu and most koryu and traditional JMA.

Part of the problem with arts like judo, aikido and kendo (and probably iaido) is the SCAP ban after WWII, combined with the crushed imperialistic spirit (which pro-bujutsu attitudes would have been related to) of Japanese people that coincided with Japan's defeat. Militant feeling "bujutsu" was frowned upon by Japanese people for many years, and the SCAP ban wouldn't allow for "martial art" practice. In order to survive the period, judo claimed to be a sport, (Tokyo) aikido "flowed" and spouted philosophical teachings, kendo claimed to be a sport, and iaido claimed purposes of moving meditation and self-development. As a result, the arts survived and continued to rise in popularity, but all of these arts have also suffered large (but varying degrees) of vital transmission loss and change in training focus, with combatively effective methods and teachings being the common loss. Hell, the Haitorei in 1876 during the Meiji period was another damaging period for traditional arts that needs to be acknowledged (Disclaimer: all of these arts have been improving and re-vitalizing since these periods to different degrees, and offer beneficial qualities, so don't take this as a flame. This is just historical perspective on traditional and koryu arts that is important to keep in mind).

For aikido, Ueshiba Sensei demonstrated flowing methods in which his uke simply threw themselves around the mat. By doing so, (among other things) he was able to show the highest level of his art publicly without including the elements of his techniques that could be stolen by those experienced enough to know how to steal them (the internal workings that cause the opponents to be thrown using his methodology - the core principles of his techniques). Sound familiar? It should - that is what koryu arts do when they demonstrate as well. It's called "omote-waza". In the case of aiki arts though, the problem is this omission of effectiveness causes outsiders to believe the art is fake, since the advanced methods being suggested in the demonstration are seem to be unbelievable to those who have not felt them before. What koryu art wants their inner methods to be stolen at a public demonstration? I would have thought that those with koryu experience would have made this jump in logic at some point, at least in regards to Daito-ryu, but it seems that everyone has been taking such demonstrations at face value without allowance for this attitude so common in the older arts (?).

It has been documented that what Ueshiba taught in the dojo - in particular dojo in places like Iwama, that were away from the prying eyes of the SCAP ban officials - was quite different than what he demonstrated publicly (see Budo and Budo Renshu).

Maybe Ueshiba "Kaiso" didn't want ANYONE to steal his "kami-waza". Or, maybe he didn't find a student he felt was talented enough or held the qualities he was looking for in a successor. Perhaps he DID allow a chosen handful to steal his methods, but they've since quit the art, died young, or became injured. I don't know, but I personally don't think Ueshiba Sensei reached a very high level of ability in Daito-ryu aiki, as compared to those who were/are at the top of that scale. On the other hand, I've also yet to see anyone demonstrate the level of ability that I believe Ueshiba held in his aikido. What my basic point was in my last post though was that it would be a bad idea to risk changing whatever "aikido" is by adding elements to it that Ueshiba himself didn't know or use. Unless you truly know what Ueshiba's real level of understanding and ability was, and felt his techniques, you CAN'T know if what you are adding is in keeping with the founder's vision for his art.

Though aikido and Daito-ryu share a number of things in common, aikido is NOT Daito-ryu, and the founder never intended for aikido to become Daito-ryu. He was licensed to teach Daito-ryu but instead created his own art, incorporating elements that are not shared with Daito-ryu. If people like aikido, then they should study the founder's aikido. Those who can't tollerate being under a teacher are free to make up their own thing and call it something else. But for those who are curious about or want to study Daito-ryu - submit yourselves to the guidance of a qualified teacher as well as the guidance found in the history of the tradition. But train in it for the right reasons- preservation and correct dissemination to future generations - not for strip mining the art for personal gain, or for feeding the fragile ego.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
13th March 2006, 20:53
Though aikido and Daito-ryu share a number of things in common, aikido is NOT Daito-ryu, and the founder never intended for aikido to become Daito-ryu. If people like aikido, then they study the founder's aikido.

Well, I'm not sure the "founder's aikido" is available anymore. There are various interpretations available, though, and one can certainly study those, and do one's best to make them one's own. That may require some exploration of the traditions that led to the development of aikido...or not. But such exploration should not be castigated, in my opinion.


But if they want to study Daito-ryu, then study it for the right reasons - preservation and correct dissemination to future generations - not strip mining the art for personal gain and feeding of ego.

Do I understand correctly that you think anyone studying Daito ryu is invovled in 'strip mining' if they only study occationally? And that only personal gain and ego are invovled? I would agree that those are two things to avoid. I disagree that 'strip mining' is the only reason other than your 'right' reasons.

Best,
Ron

Nathan Scott
13th March 2006, 21:26
Ron,

That's not what I said. I was referring to the fact that there are different types of people interested in Daito-ryu right now. Some are aikido-ka looking to fix aikido, and think that borrowing what they can find out about Daito-ryu is the way to go. I'm saying that you would have to have a very deep understanding of what both arts are to gain any real benefit and not accidentally change the founder's aikido. For example, there are many who incorporate what they know of judo, or arts that have striking techniques, into aikido in an attempt to fix them. Well, breaking balance is a pretty common principle, but you'd have to really understand both arts very well to not run the risk of changing the art. A karate punch is very different than a jujutsu atemi. Keep in mind, in traditional arts, it is typically only the headmaster or menkyo kaiden that is permitted to make changes in an art. Everyone else is supposed to be studying what has been and is being taught in the art, preserving it, and if possible, further developing it (using what exists within their art currently). Those not at this level do not have a RIGHT to make changes to such an art, as this would be seen as a "corruption" of the transmitted teachings.

Another type of person are those in other arts who don't want to put on a white belt and start over again in an art like Daito-ryu from the beginning, or, have such an ego that it won't allow them to submit to the authority and direction of someone else (a teacher). For them it is much easier to simply fish for information from the outside and incorporate what they *think* is Daito-ryu into their own art, then invariably claiming later that such teachings were always in their art and as such there is really nothing unique about an art like Daito-ryu.

The last type I was referring to are those that join the art only long enough to obtain some credibility, or, a level of understanding/skill, then betray the trust of their teacher by stealing their teachings and using them for their own gain in another art - or worse, using the same art name while selling the teachings and name to develop their own financial gain and power/fame (opportunists).

These types of people should just leave struggling traditional ryu-ha like Daito-ryu alone, and should be discouraged by those inside the art as well as outsiders who have any interest in seeing traditional ryu-ha and koryu arts survive into the next generation.

I'm not saying all new students to Daito-ryu have agendas or are evil. That is not at all the case, I've met some great people in the art who are very talented. I'm just bringing to light a big problem that comes from any art that become fadish or popular, and perhaps, also warning those in the art or those interested in the art to consider what their own motivations are and what effect their actions are having on the art and those in it.

Folks, lets face it, this friggin Daito-ryu / aiki fad has been going on for WAY TOO LONG! Can't we finally move on and exploit something else? I've got some suggestions... ;)

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
13th March 2006, 21:35
Agreed...just checking...

chrismoses
1st November 2006, 20:03
Saw these a while back when his student was pushing him as the greatest thing since sliced (crustless of course) bread. Honestly, not that impressed, if you've ever been thrown around by Don Angier or his guys, you'll see nothing new here. It's not that it's bad, but it's not exactly groundbreaking...

So I just got back from a trip to Japan and Ark allowed me and a training partner of mine to work into one of his classes. Huge thanks to him, Rob, Adam and the rest of his guys. So having actually had a few hours of face time and more importantly hands ON time, I thought I should follow up on this post. The short version is that I'm currently soaking my feet in a lovely wasabi-soy concoction that should make having my feet in my mouth a much more plesant experience. Ark probably is about the best thing since crustless sliced bread, and (to me at least) it most certainly felt groundbreaking. But beyond Ark's own very considerable skill, I was equally impressed with the very high level of skill of his students that had been with him for a couple years. It was clear that not only was he able to do some amazing stuff, but that he had a system for building these same internal skills in others. Further, he's able to do so in a relatively short period of time. Rob's been training with Ark for about three years (if I remember correctly) and easily had better body skills than nearly anyone I have dealt with in Aikido in the US, that list would include some 6th-8th dans who are serious mucky mucks in the seminar circuit. What they're doing is not very similar to what I've seen of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but felt a bit more like what Systema might be one day. I generally call it like I see it, but when I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, and I was certainly wrong on this one. Again, huge thanks to Rob for coordinating our visit and Ark for having us. My only regret is the sleep I lost that night trying desparately to wrap my head around some of the things that were done in class.

Mark Murray
1st November 2006, 21:24
So I just got back from a trip to Japan and Ark allowed me and a training partner of mine to work into one of his classes. Huge thanks to him, Rob, Adam and the rest of his guys. So having actually had a few hours of face time and more importantly hands ON time, I thought I should follow up on this post. The short version is that I'm currently soaking my feet in a lovely wasabi-soy concoction that should make having my feet in my mouth a much more plesant experience. Ark probably is about the best thing since crustless sliced bread, and (to me at least) it most certainly felt groundbreaking. But beyond Ark's own very considerable skill, I was equally impressed with the very high level of skill of his students that had been with him for a couple years. It was clear that not only was he able to do some amazing stuff, but that he had a system for building these same internal skills in others. Further, he's able to do so in a relatively short period of time. Rob's been training with Ark for about three years (if I remember correctly) and easily had better body skills than nearly anyone I have dealt with in Aikido in the US, that list would include some 6th-8th dans who are serious mucky mucks in the seminar circuit. What they're doing is not very similar to what I've seen of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu, but felt a bit more like what Systema might be one day. I generally call it like I see it, but when I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, and I was certainly wrong on this one. Again, huge thanks to Rob for coordinating our visit and Ark for having us. My only regret is the sleep I lost that night trying desparately to wrap my head around some of the things that were done in class.

Thanks for the post! Can you describe anything in more detail? Some of us are really interested to hear about your experiences. :)

Thanks,
Mark

Ron Tisdale
1st November 2006, 21:31
Nice post Chris...details! Details!

Way to man up.

Best,
Ron

Mark Murray
1st November 2006, 21:34
Well, cooperative uke's are a problem in all areas of aikido, IMO. Let me ask you this - what is the purpose of kokyu dosa? To improve tanden usage, hip usage, etc? Of the small technical curriculum of aikido, why were techniques like kokyu dosa and tenchinage included? I don't mean to sound so cryptic, but I'm not comfortable with explaining my point of view on techniques. I'd simply suggest that little to no benefit is being gained from the way techiques such as these are currently be practiced (in general).

Regards,

Hello Nathan,
I was rereading this thread again and wondered if you'd elaborate on kokyu dosa? What it was designed for, what way should it be practiced? Anything would help.

Thanks,
Mark

Tom H.
1st November 2006, 22:46
Pre-exposure:


Honestly, not that impressed [...] It's not that it's bad, but it's not exactly groundbreaking...Post-exposure:


Ark probably is about the best thing since crustless sliced bread, and (to me at least) it most certainly felt groundbreaking.Thank you for being open, Chris. I'm glad that you (i.e. someone with experience) comes away impressed that much. I put a fledgling Aikido career on hold indefinitely after Rob was very kind enough to show me how to get started on Akuzawa's stuff. As for Rob, I would love to see where he gets in ten years.

chrismoses
1st November 2006, 23:09
Nice post Chris...details! Details!

Way to man up.

Best,
Ron

I'm not really sure where to start. We trained with him on a Wednesday, which is more Chinese arts oriented. I have very limited experience with CMA, so it was right into the deep end. We spent a lot of time working on excercises to develop 'the cross' that Rob's always talking about. I was sweating like a pig in no time and found it hugely difficult to do the exercises correctly. Rob has written about some of the exercises elsewhere. Later we did some partner drills. Something that was immediately obvious was that Rob and the others were nearly as stable along their 'weak' line (third point, triangulation...) as they were along their strong line. You could push Rob from the front as hard as you wanted and he wouldn't move, all this while he was standing straight legged and straight armed. I have no idea how this works. Ark could go from feeling like you were pushing on a brick wall to boxing a sheet of silk seemingly at will. When we were screwing around post beers on the train back to Tokyo, Rob kicked my buddy Jeremy in the leg relatively gently and the shockwave went straight through to his spine. His eyes bugged out and both of his shoulders came up almost like a spasm. At the tasty beer-n-snacks place we hit after class Ark showed me a version of kokyu-ho. He had me grab him by the his pointer fingers and then let me push his arms back behind his back. "Too easy" he said, then lifted both feet off of the ground. So now I'm planted on a chair in front of him, both feet on the ground dropping my weight forward and he's balanced on his butt cheeks with his arms behind his back and he's dancing his feet back and forth in the air just to show that they aren't connected to anything. Then all of a sudden he just pulsed me up and backwards hard enough that I came up out of the chair, almost knocking it over when I came back down into it. I felt only the slightest change of pressure during the event.

There was a lot more, but that should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

Mark Jakabcsin
1st November 2006, 23:44
What they're doing is not very similar to what I've seen of Don Angier's Yanagi Ryu,......

Chris,
First, thanks for the review. Frankly when I saw the clips the first time I also compared to my own frame of reference and was not overly impressed. However, after reading some of Rob's posts on another forum and then watching the film again I realized that what I thought I was seeing was not what he was doing. It became clear to me Ark was using a different operating system. Hopefully someone will invite Ark over for a seminar as I would very much like to attend and get some hands on experience. Thanks again for your honest follow up.

Take care,

Mark J.

Mark Murray
2nd November 2006, 00:14
I'm not really sure where to start. We trained with him on a Wednesday, which is more Chinese arts oriented. I have very limited experience with CMA, so it was right into the deep end. We spent a lot of time working on excercises to develop 'the cross' that Rob's always talking about. I was sweating like a pig in no time and found it hugely difficult to do the exercises correctly. Rob has written about some of the exercises elsewhere. Later we did some partner drills. Something that was immediately obvious was that Rob and the others were nearly as stable along their 'weak' line (third point, triangulation...) as they were along their strong line. You could push Rob from the front as hard as you wanted and he wouldn't move, all this while he was standing straight legged and straight armed. I have no idea how this works. Ark could go from feeling like you were pushing on a brick wall to boxing a sheet of silk seemingly at will. When we were screwing around post beers on the train back to Tokyo, Rob kicked my buddy Jeremy in the leg relatively gently and the shockwave went straight through to his spine. His eyes bugged out and both of his shoulders came up almost like a spasm. At the tasty beer-n-snacks place we hit after class Ark showed me a version of kokyu-ho. He had me grab him by the his pointer fingers and then let me push his arms back behind his back. "Too easy" he said, then lifted both feet off of the ground. So now I'm planted on a chair in front of him, both feet on the ground dropping my weight forward and he's balanced on his butt cheeks with his arms behind his back and he's dancing his feet back and forth in the air just to show that they aren't connected to anything. Then all of a sudden he just pulsed me up and backwards hard enough that I came up out of the chair, almost knocking it over when I came back down into it. I felt only the slightest change of pressure during the event.

There was a lot more, but that should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

Wow,
Some of that sounds like what I experienced when I met Dan Harden. And I can really understand that relaxed kick that goes right to the bone. :) If you want to read the thread, it's here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11178&page=1&pp=25

I hope Rob or Akuzawa are able to make it over here one of these days.

Mark

TomW
2nd November 2006, 02:07
Nice posts Chris. Look forward to hearing more.

Dan Harden
2nd November 2006, 02:25
Good on ya Chris.
I hope that Ark and Rob got you started on Solo work. If......you do it, your body will change. It will happen. You won't be the same guy in a year.
Did you get to feel the push out exercises? Could ya lift your feet? :rolleyes:

Congrats
Dan

edg176
2nd November 2006, 06:13
Chris,
It takes a big man to admit when he was wrong. Thanks for your report. I am headed to Tokyo myself in the spring to check things out.

Jeremy Hulley
2nd November 2006, 19:29
Not to echo Chris too much...but Wow!!!

Thanks to Ark, Rob, Adam and the other guys for being so welcoming, fun and challenging.

I was blown away by the power Rob and Ark could generate with knees locked and arms straight out. At one point Ark pushed me back and then walked through em like I was not even there. I struggle even to desribe the feeling without going into goofy soundbites. I could not put my hands on Ark and ground in any way that could stop or impact his movement.

At one point Ark put me (5'10, 245) on his back piggy back style and did slow motion sumo stomps. I could feel that it was more about body stability than sheer strength. Amazing.

I'll second Chris when he says that everyone "was nearly as stable along their 'weak' line (third point, triangulation...)"

I bounced off most folks there when trying to apply what I knew.

The exercises were tough and clearly meant to build specific body structure as well as power and the ability to transmit power.

I'll spend a long time thinking things over in my head.

Best

Jeremy

Dan Harden
2nd November 2006, 23:06
So Jeremy
Tell me. Now that you felt that kind of power. How does it differ from say....what you have felt in the past?
Where can you see it be useful?
When you touched his hands- in the push out exercise where he could walk right through you-you felt the ground or center in his hand. How do you suppose this relates to other things you have read about in the past?

Cheers
Dan

chrismoses
2nd November 2006, 23:23
So Jeremy
Tell me. Now that you felt that kind of power. How does it differ from say....what you have felt in the past?
Where can you see it be useful?
When you touched his hands- in the push out exercise where he could walk right through you-you felt the ground or center in his hand. How do you suppose this relates to other things you have read about in the past?

Cheers
Dan

I'm not Jeremy but...

I'd have to say that until I could replicate it more, I couldn't intelligently talk about what was different. It would be useful in just about everything you did however, that much was obvious. I don't know what I felt through his or Rob's hands, I just didn't get the feedback that I was used to, and many of the exercises were set up so that the structural advantages I was used to were not available if you were going to try and do the exercises correctly. The power generation and stability seemed to come from the center instead of being tranferred up from the legs. Like I said, I don't know how that worked. One thing was clear though, that it was unlike anyone I'd felt in Aiki circles, I assume that's the Chinese influence.

Asura
3rd November 2006, 15:18
I'd have to say that until I could replicate it more, I couldn't intelligently talk about what was different. It would be useful in just about everything you did however, that much was obvious. I don't know what I felt through his or Rob's hands, I just didn't get the feedback that I was used to, and many of the exercises were set up so that the structural advantages I was used to were not available if you were going to try and do the exercises correctly. The power generation and stability seemed to come from the center instead of being tranferred up from the legs. Like I said, I don't know how that worked. One thing was clear though, that it was unlike anyone I'd felt in Aiki circles, I assume that's the Chinese influence.

Hey guys :)

Jeeez, I like poke my head into this long dead thread, and all of a sudden its fired up again :)

Anyways, it was great having you both. Hope you get a chance to drop by again sometime, though I'm sure we'll get to meet up in Seattle soon enough.

Thought I'd drop a couple of comments about your above quote though.
Part of it is the "center", but it still needs to come from the feet. I can tell you in the pushout exercise when it starts to click you'll definitely feel pressure in the feet. You don't generate "power" from the center so much as let the incoming force pass "through" you and those areas. That's where Ark mentioned that you have to know which parts to keep in proper tension, and which parts to relax. The "cross" is an important part to study only cuz so many people neglect it.
Once you understand how to stabilize the cross, then you tie that in with the lower center or "tanden" area, which also comprises the koshi, and then eventually tie in the legs to that as well.
And when you release the power back to your partner you send it from "elbow on out"

Just some extra stuff for you guys to lose more sleep over :D

Ron Tisdale
3rd November 2006, 18:58
Hi Rob,

When you speak of "koshi" are you referring to that sort of upside down "triangle" on the back just above the coxyx? I've been playing around with just how much change I can get in my spine by changing the orientation of the "triangle".

Best,
Ron

Asura
4th November 2006, 02:46
Hi Rob,

When you speak of "koshi" are you referring to that sort of upside down "triangle" on the back just above the coxyx? I've been playing around with just how much change I can get in my spine by changing the orientation of the "triangle".

Best,
Ron

Well, Koshi isn't just that area, it also covers the small of the back as well, which is why some people get it confused as being the "hips" i think.

The coccyx is important for myself if only because you're creating the downward pull from that area in opposition to the "suspended" feeling you get from the crown of the head, or base of the neck. ^^

budo_magus
10th August 2008, 00:31
Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone familiar with Aunkai knew how to contact them or at least when the next US seminar will be?

The reason I ask is, back in April, I tried to contact them on their website, and I tried again recently, as well as trying to contact Rob via PM. I have not had any luck. I think this type of training they are offering is interesting, and would like to experience it, if at all possible. If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be thankful.

Sincerely,
Shawn Zemba

Cady Goldfield
10th August 2008, 02:38
Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone familiar with Aunkai knew how to contact them or at least when the next US seminar will be?

The reason I ask is, back in April, I tried to contact them on their website, and I tried again recently, as well as trying to contact Rob via PM. I have not had any luck. I think this type of training they are offering is interesting, and would like to experience it, if at all possible. If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be thankful.

Sincerely,
Shawn Zemba

Google is a fine resource. ;)
http://www.aunkai.net/eng/

Akuzawa was in Washington, D.C. in May. It wouldn't be surprising if he schedules another seminar there, given the enthusiastic response he received for this past visit.

budo_magus
10th August 2008, 02:53
Google is a fine resource. ;)
http://www.aunkai.net/eng/

Akuzawa was in Washington, D.C. in May. It wouldn't be surprising if he schedules another seminar there, given the enthusiastic response he received for this past visit.

Thank you.

While I have been to that site, and have sent occasional emails to them since April, I have yet to receive a response, hence my posting here. But I am optimistic about there being another seminar in DC. Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Shawn Zemba

Asura
10th August 2008, 05:36
Thank you.

While I have been to that site, and have sent occasional emails to them since April, I have yet to receive a response, hence my posting here. But I am optimistic about there being another seminar in DC. Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Shawn Zemba

Sorry about that, I just saw your response ;)

In any event I just sent a PM to you about your questions.

We might be out there late this year, but beginning of next year is looking more likely.

Rob