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MartArtsNovice
18th September 2005, 19:38
I recently viewed a program on the Discovery channel. It was called XMA, it was showing a person who trained in various arts for these international competitions. I found it somewhat alarming when this person took a pair of kamas, and started spinning and tossing them into the air, with a large audience less than 25ft away. I also saw another competitor take a medium-sized katana and start juggling it in the air also.

I guess what I am asking is, "Why do these people treat martial arts this way?"

Am I wrong in thinking, that with any type of weapon style, that the practioner should use a level of caution wiht any size audience. Could someone clear this up for me.

Blackwood
18th September 2005, 19:54
Matthew,

Welcome to e-budo. Yeah, you'll want to scan through some of the threads around here, including Baffling Budo and Bad Budo for lots of discussions on such topics. There are many that are simply not satisfied with learning traditional martial arts and don't have the patience. So they doctor things up and try to make them look really flashy, but totally impractical in a real situation.

To each their own!

hjnorris
19th September 2005, 03:25
The whole point of the Discovery channel XMA show was to provide publicity for the freestyle martial arts movement promoted by Paul Mitchell at venues like the Battle of Atlanta.

I don't think people are as stupid as the average teenager, though. Most saw through it.

Henry Norris, Raleigh, NC

MarkF
19th September 2005, 15:42
I recently viewed a program on the Discovery channel. It was called XMA, it was showing a person who trained in various arts for these international competitions. I found it somewhat alarming when this person took a pair of kamas, and started spinning and tossing them into the air, with a large audience less than 25ft away. I also saw another competitor take a medium-sized katana and start juggling it in the air also.

I guess what I am asking is, "Why do these people treat martial arts this way?"

Am I wrong in thinking, that with any type of weapon style, that the practioner should use a level of caution wiht any size audience. Could someone clear this up for me.

I think you answered your own question. First, there is nothing "martial" in what they do. It is similar to the game "Truth or Dare." Most Dare, in the game and on Television, especially on MA Shows sponsored by Paul Mitchell. They even have tournaments sponsored by Mitchell in which Mitchell has teams or individuals entered. Some come with titles such as "The USKA Team Synchronized Weapons Kata Championships" done to fast music. On top of the stupidity of the whole thing there is also a conflict of interest.


BTW: Mathew, the full, real name means a first name and a full last name or first name initial and full last name. You agreed to it when you signed on.

Use the control panel and prefs/options to put your sig in your name automatically with every post. Don't forget to set it as your default and you will never have to worry about forgetting it.

Back to the subject of your thread, do a search concerning accidents with swords in the Sword forum. There is one particularly long thread about the very accident you mean. In the Baffling budo or Bad Budo forum there are videos (recent posting) of those very problem including one in which a "master" cuts the throat of his victim/student.


Mark

MartArtsNovice
20th September 2005, 02:03
Yeah, I saw that video, where the master sliced the students throat with a sharp katana, while attempting to cut a cucumber. No offense to anyone, I mean no bashing, but why would anyone let another person wheeled a sword that close to your head.

I not saying that the kumites are a bad practice. I trained for a while in Karate, and I was taught to spar on a regular basis with people of my own rank and above. It was challenging and rewarding, when I learned a trick or two from some of the Black belts in the dojo.

Michael R
20th September 2005, 13:51
Matthew,

There are a lot of things you can do with dull blades. It has been my experience, however, that the sharper the blade the less room afforded for foul ups.

In pre-modern times, before firearms were the mainstay of combat, sword dances were not that uncommon in many cultures. The difference being though is that in pre-modern times-as opposed to now-there was a pragmatic outlook to mortal combat with bladed weapons. Therefore any acrobatic movements performed, if there was any at all in dance, rituals etc, was done to either enhance skills or else was recognized for what it was. Dance or celebration, not combative technique. Today however, since we no longer conduct mortal combat with bladed weapons, then the pragmatic outlook towards their use has become lost. This has led to a focus on competition and flamyboyant movements designed not to kill, but to impress those who are watching. It is complicated even more so by a lack of historical interest on the part of those who perform such acrobatic routines. Therefore the "flash" is more important than the historical setting in which the steel was used.

You also the ego factor, which many times has us do something that is beyond the realms of common sense and personal skill levels. Thus you end up with people having their throats cut during demostrations. If you haven't already, try reading Sir Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" or Ewart Oakeshott's "Archaeology or Weapons". Both might shed some light on your original post.

Michael Rosenbaum

budoka_ch
20th September 2005, 20:43
Matthew,

If you haven't already, try reading Sir Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" or Ewart Oakeshott's "Archaeology or Weapons". Both might shed some light on your original post.

Michael Rosenbaum

Matthew,

The Richard Burton book I can attest to the unspeakable coolness of. A useful multicultural survey of all kinds of sharp pointy things. Great book. Dover has published it (ISBN 0486254348). I believe he also wrote another book, called The Sentiment of the Sword. Great books by a pioneer of weapons and combatives research. I don't know if you already knew this, but these books were apparently quite useful to Donn Draeger in resurrecting the academic field of hoplology (as I understand it, the study of the hows, whys, and wherefores of personal combat). Both of these books should be online, being in the public domain and all. I know SOTS is online at ejmas.com/jnc/ jncart_burtonsentimentswordcontents_0300.htm. Haven't found BOTS online yet, grrr...

--------
Mr. Rosenbaum, I actually was coming to the same conclusion, and, without knowing it, you answered the question more eloquently than I ever could (because of changing times/values, the historical bit about combative merit falling by the wayside, leaving just the spectacle.)

If I may ask, are you that same Michael J. Rosenbaum who has recently written books on kata and Isshin ryu karate? I ask because I do goju, but I am always interested in comparing different styles of my 'home' art.

Blackwood
20th September 2005, 22:00
Even with my search skills, I was unable to find BOTS on-line. I shall continue to search. Thanks for the link to SOTS, looks great! My French and Latin are rather rusty, but perhaps they will be enough.

Michael R
20th September 2005, 22:12
Chris,

Yes, I'm one in the same.

Thank you for asking.

Matthew,
The following is a link to the International Holplology Societies web site. It's an article that the director, Mr.Hunter Armstrong, wrote, one which you might find usefull in regards to your first post. http://www.hoplology.com/articles_detail.asp?id=2

If the link dosen't work, just put in Hoplos and go to their articles section. The article is "Training the use of arms professional"

Michael Rosenbaum

MartArtsNovice
21st September 2005, 00:31
It seems to me, that the older arts are becoming more a part of a show, rather than practiced for their original design. I realizse that when guns and other firearms came into play, that these older weapons such as: katanas, yari, nunchakus, and other weapons I havent mentioned were waved off as a past tradition. I realzie that today there us training for their usage but why dont people realize these are weapons first. Not Toys.

Im trying to find a art to study, that comes close to what some have dubbed the Samurai arts. I know of tameshiri, and kyudo. I wish to learn training in using a katana, yari, and other weapons. I also wish to learn jujitsu. Though around my town, its called the ninja arts. I know that this is a small aspect of their training. I think that the fighting styles practiced by these groups have some value. Though I know, that when I trained in Karate, the emphasis was no weapons. I dont know quite what style I was being taught.

P.S

To the gentlemen who posted the links, I will check them out. I will also try to locate copies of the books mentioned.

Michael R
21st September 2005, 13:39
Matthew,

I really don't think that the "older arts" are becoming part of the show. You can look on some of the web sites like www.koryu.com and see that they are being preserved by people who have a lot of knowledge about these systems. The show part, in my humble opinion, comes from us modern day practitioners who haven't been to Japan, but still want to be "Ah Samurai". This in turn leads to a modern invention of a traditional martial art, and then presto, you have people running around doing things with a sword that in a historical sense, during mortal combat on the battlefield, would have never happened. However, many of these individuals have very good sales lines, so they can pass off their system as being legit. It's sort of like all the wannabe Green Berets and Seals out there. They talk a good line, but when you get to the truth of the matter, if you can, then theres not a whole lot worth your wild.

The value of traditional systems be they Martial- such as the koryu bujutsu(battlefield orientated) or civil- karate-jutsu, Tai Chi, Silat (self protection) is that these once were functioning systems used in a day and age when hand to hand combat was the normal way of fighting. Therefore, the techniques used are proven and tested and most importantly give us modern practitioners a base of knowledge from which to draw upon. However, since the fighting arts have become so main stream today, and so much of a business, then that authentic base of knowledge is often overlooked or else discarded for other things like, rank, fame, money or all of the afore mentioned. Not to mention Hollywood which has set us back a thousand years if not more so.

If you want to learn one of the traditional Japanese systems, my advice is to be carefull, because we have a lot of modern samurai wannabes running around today. Many of whom recieved their instructors certification online, through video, or else just christened themselves a master swordsman. If it comes to practicing a cheap imitation or nothing, in my opinion, you'd be better off with nothing. Two hours of weight lifiting will do you a lot better than any imitation of the Koryu Bujutsu will. Check your sources, read Donn Draegers books and ask some of the people in the Koryu chat room here, they can give you good advice. Oh, and by the way, I'm not a Koryu practitioner, nor claim to be. My background is in the civil systems, karate, bando and boxing. My traditional weapon of choice is a cold glass of beer. :)

Hope this is of some help.

Michael Rosenbaum

MarkF
21st September 2005, 21:18
Yeah, I saw that video, where the master sliced the students throat with a sharp katana, while attempting to cut a cucumber. No offense to anyone, I mean no bashing, but why would anyone let another person wheeled a sword that close to your head.


Well, you said one of the magic words: "Master." Or Grandmaster, or even Sensei. The prevailing thought in many of these post-modern styles is "it is true because sensei sez." That gets you to a point of such trust in a person that if the "master" says it is safe then it is safe. What sensei doesn't tell the student is: "if you believe that, I can cut you clean through and not put a scratch on you."

Watch out for the self-proclaimed masters and even their students as they are the ones who bow to this guy giving him the nerve to call himself a "Martial Artist."


Mark

MartArtsNovice
22nd September 2005, 01:04
I call myself Martialartsnovice on Jref, and other forums, and MartsArtsNovice here because I know I still have a multitude to learn about the different branches of any martial art. Im just trying to learn a different way, to train myself as a better athlete both mentally and physically. I wish to learn the how the yari's, katanas, and other weapons were used. I dont want to be a showboat athlete. Im doing for self-improvement.

Michael R
22nd September 2005, 17:21
Matthew,

You might also try reading some of Stephen Turnbull's books on the Samurai and their military history. Although you won't gain a whole lot of technique from them, you will get a pretty good understanding of how the weapons you mentioned were used on the battlefield. I'm sure your local library has his books or you can try this link: http://www.ospreysamurai.com/turnbull.htm. Amazon.com is also a good place to look. Like I said, you may not grasp any technical things from his books, but you will gain a pretty good historical perspective on how they were used.'

Michael Rosenbaum

MarkF
23rd September 2005, 18:19
I call myself Martialartsnovice on Jref, and other forums, and MartsArtsNovice here because I know I still have a multitude to learn about the different branches of any martial art. Im just trying to learn a different way, to train myself as a better athlete both mentally and physically. I wish to learn the how the yari's, katanas, and other weapons were used. I dont want to be a showboat athlete. Im doing for self-improvement.

MY apologies if you took that one line to you due to your username. That isn't what I meant at all. I do think you take what you see most often to mean that is all there is. Martial arts are suffering under these people. Well, yes and no. IOW, anyone can learn a little about weapons then teach, and teach badly, so it is like what you saw in the video, masters with the ever-trusting student. That, in itself, isn't a bad thing, trust, but it must be earned, not just taken as is. A true teacher of such weapons would not even consider such stunts, but the true master of kobudo (ancient weapons) does not put on such displays, does not advertise his/her dojo, and would not even come to this thread and answer questions about them.

So again I apologize for the miscommunication. I really did not even notice your username until you brought it up. Your username is just fine with me. It had nothing to do with what I posted. I pretty much understood what you were thinking and asking in your opening post in your thread.

"Self-improvement" is not an unknown reason for starting the martial art. Lesson one: In Japanese, there is one katana. There are two katana, or two yari. Singular and plural are usually the same. No 's' necessary to make a word plural.

I understand what you want to do, my earlier suggestion is that you take up something a little less complicated than a katana, because it will be a long time on a bokken (bokuto, a wooden sword replica) before you really move on to a katana, and even then you will probably use an unsharpened daito before the katana. I think you have the correct attitude and that is why I generally think people who do should see if they can take the rigors of something empty handed or with a shinai, like judo or kendo, before you pick up those weapons. IOW, if you can make it to a master student level, a 1-dan in kendo or judo, then you know you will do the same with kobudo. It isn't that it is less challenging, just a little safer. If you really want to learn the basics of koryu (old school) sword or spear, it is a good progression. You would be surprised, perhaps, at the similarities in movement there are in going for the jujutsu or judo empty-handed styles, or even back to karate but with a newer and better teacher, to a katana. Sometimes, it is even suggested by the teacher that you do just that and come back in a year or two.

I'm all for you doing what you want to do and I admire your itch to do it, I was suggesting a slightly longer road. Teachers of kenjutsu or sojutsu (other weapons such as the yari), etc., are more likely to want to teach you, and that is the one difference you will find between the two, the new and the older. The old school teacher is not looking for new students, but he may "allow" you to sit in a class, and perhaps accept you by the fact you have shown your willingness to work at it. The more you show him/her you are serious, the sooner you can get into the right dojo. Sometimes, a dojo is just an old barn or other such structure. A piece of canvass or two over hay may be the dojo floor.

That is what I keep trying to say, though I admit I haven't made a very good argument.

Anyway, I wish you good luck in your search. But like I said earlier (I think without looking) even the right karate or aikido teacher will introduce you to such weapons, and you seem to be able to tell the difference from teacher to teacher. I wish I had the Internet when I became interested, but at twelve years old, there were two or three choices available, and the same type of exhibitionists as you mentioned at the outset. I started in the early sixties, and I got lucky, but I could have just as easily fallen into a "Grandmaster's dojo or kwoon."

Anyway, you are going about this in the right way so your toes are wet, anyway.;)



Regards,

Mark

MartArtsNovice
28th September 2005, 03:42
Well thank you.


Yeah, Im kinda of ashamed that all the karate, Ive learned is know mostly forgotten. But the style I remember training in, they had a no weapons teaching philosophy. So, I realize that Im going to have to work at the my pursuit of learning, which is fine with me. What good is a reward with out a little sweat and grit. to me it would be an empty-handed victory, nothing ventured nothing gained.