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pdavidson6
2nd December 2004, 00:20
I'm a newbie to the martial arts scene and I have some general questions to ask:

1) I'm most interested in learning a style that focuses on the use of the longstaff or bo. I'm not sure the name- I've heard Bojutsu is the way to go. As I said I've never done this before so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

2) Is there a style of Koryubudo or Kobudo that focuses on the longstaff?

3) I live in Orlando Florida, is there anybody who teaches the longstaff?

4) How long does it take to become well-trained in such an art?

Any information would help. This is something I've been trying to get into for almost six months now. Please let me know all the pros/cons associated with- and also if it's a good way to build muscle mass and/or increse stamina.

Thanks-
Patrick

Gene Williams
2nd December 2004, 00:24
Richard Kelley over in East Orlando teaches many bo kata and applications. He is Shito-ryu. Most of the time, you will find weapons taught as a part of a karate regimen. Shito-ryu has lots of weapons. Kelly is a good instructor. If you'd like his number, pm me.
Gene

Shitoryu Dude
2nd December 2004, 00:45
Kenpo karate trains with the bo.

I know two Okinawan styles - Kenshin and Yamani. Kenshin can be learned fairly well in a matter of weeks/months if you are adept with weapons. Yamani, on the other hand, is something best learned when you have a few years to devote steadily to it.

Hayashi-Ha Shitoryu Kai makes Kenshin Ryu part of their regular training for 5th kyu and up.

:beer:

Kaoru
2nd December 2004, 05:00
Hi!

Not to barge in, but this Kenshin Ryu is not to be confused with the TV anime and manga "Rurouni Kenshin," which is made up and has nothing to do with the anime. hehehe, I just could not resist mentioning this... :D

Anyway... Harvey,

What is Kenshin and Yamani Ryu? I never heard about them before. Please tell me more? The only place I ever heard of the word "Yamani" is in Tamora Pierce's books in her Tortall series. Most recently, in the "Protector of the Small" quartet that I have read. The author's books have many Japanese influences. In her books, Yamani are a group of Islands and the people are called the Yamani. So, she must know of this Ryu. Well, she also chose Naginata as the art the Yamani practice.

Anyway, can you please tell me about them? I'd like that! :)

Kaoru
2nd December 2004, 05:04
Originally posted by pdavidson6
I'm a newbie to the martial arts scene and I have some general questions to ask:

1) I'm most interested in learning a style that focuses on the use of the longstaff or bo. I'm not sure the name- I've heard Bojutsu is the way to go. As I said I've never done this before so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

2) Is there a style of Koryubudo or Kobudo that focuses on the longstaff?

3) I live in Orlando Florida, is there anybody who teaches the longstaff?

4) How long does it take to become well-trained in such an art?

Any information would help. This is something I've been trying to get into for almost six months now. Please let me know all the pros/cons associated with- and also if it's a good way to build muscle mass and/or increse stamina.

Thanks-
Patrick Davidson

Hi Mr. Davidson,

Speaking of the Naginata and the Japanese art called Naginata...

Naginata is a staff(glaive) art. Erm.. I forgot the other term used for the Naginata. Sorry. You might want to try that art out too.

It takes lots of time to master any martial art. Probably a life time to get any good really. You never stop learning. I mean, you can get good, but you can't master anything in a short period of time, if ever. It just takes a long time, a lot of patience, and loads of dedication and a willingness to work hard, and getting to the dojo to learn, so someday you could be decent at it. I do Kendo, and gosh... to be good at it? I think it's gonna take my whole life! :D

Well, I hope you find what pleases you best. Try going to different dojos of different arts to see what they are about, so you get an idea to see what interests you. That's the best way. :)

Good luck!

Shitoryu Dude
2nd December 2004, 05:54
I noticed the similarity between the book and the bojutsu style. Not a coincidence I think.

Yamanni is a flowing bo style, kenshin is a "hard style" for the bo. One of the explanations I heard is that kenshin is what was taught to the peasants as it could be learned fairly quickly. Yamanni was left to the samurai as the fluid movements were much harder to master and required much practice.

Oshiro sensei in San Francisco is the US master of Yamanni Ryu. He even has a video tape (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305435472/qid%3D1101966591/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-1603946-4978306) available which goes over some of the kata.

I think you will need to travel to the west coast to find a yamanni sensei. Most IKKA Kenpo schools will be able to teach you the basics of bo work, and those are everyplace.

:beer:

Brian Owens
2nd December 2004, 06:52
Originally posted by Kaoru
...Speaking of the Naginata and the Japanese art called Naginata...Naginata is a staff (glaive) art. Erm.. I forgot the other term used for the Naginata. Sorry. You might want to try that art out too.
Hi Kaoru-san,

Another name for a glaive, and probably more common, is "halberd."

I wouldn't classify naginata as a "staff" art, so much as a "polearm" art. When I think of a staff I think of weapons like the bo, jo, hanbo, quarterstave, etc. that do not have blades.

Polearms, like the naginata, yari, etc., share some traits with staffs, but because they are bladed they have other traits that are dissimilar.

Kenshin Ryu is a style of Ryukyu Kobudo (Okinawan Weapons) of which Hayashi Teruo is the Soke. He is also Saiko Shihan of Hayshi-ha Shito Ryu Karate.

Kenshin Ryu includes nunchaku, bo, sai, kama, tatami tenbe, tonfa, etc. If you ever get to see the video Budo: Art of Killing, Hayashi Sensei demonstrates several of the Kenshin Ryu forms along with several sequences on Karate-do.

Hayashi Sensei is my karate teacher's teacher, and I got to meet him once back when I was still studying karate and kobudo. The breadth and depth of his knowledge and skill was awe inspiring.

Brian Owens
2nd December 2004, 07:08
Originally posted by pdavidson6
I'm a newbie to the martial arts scene and I have some general questions to ask:

1) I'm most interested in learning a style that focuses on the use of the longstaff or bo. I'm not sure the name- I've heard Bojutsu is the way to go. As I said I've never done this before so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Yes, the art of the bo is called bojutsu. There really is no "Bodo" that I've ever heard of.


Originally posted by pdavidson6
2) Is there a style of Koryubudo or Kobudo that focuses on the longstaff?
Several koryu include the bo, but -- unlike the jo -- I've never heard of a ryu where it was the exclusive or primary weapon.

It is widely used by many karate practitioners, but the methods are not exactly the same as in the Japanese styles (or Chinese, for that matter). In the US, though, that would probably be the most plentiful type of school you'd find.


Originally posted by pdavidson6
4) How long does it take to become well-trained in such an art?
I would say two to three years to become reasonably proficient, and a lifetime to really master it; the same as any other martial art.

Practicing bo kata will indeed increase your stamina if done frequently enough, and with intent. I wouldn't say it's particularly good at building muscle mass, but it's very good for building muscle tone.

Rob Alvelais
2nd December 2004, 07:11
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
I noticed the similarity between the book and the bojutsu style. Not a coincidence I think.

Yamanni is a flowing bo style, kenshin is a "hard style" for the bo. One of the explanations I heard is that kenshin is what was taught to the peasants as it could be learned fairly quickly. Yamanni was left to the samurai as the fluid movements were much harder to master and required much practice.

Oshiro sensei in San Francisco is the US master of Yamanni Ryu. He even has a video tape (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6305435472/qid%3D1101966591/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-1603946-4978306) available which goes over some of the kata.

I think you will need to travel to the west coast to find a yamanni sensei. Most IKKA Kenpo schools will be able to teach you the basics of bo work, and those are everyplace.

:beer:


I think the pesant/samurai thing is total bunkum. For one thing, Mr. Hayashi wasn't that old and he was the originator/Founder of Kenshin Ryu! ;)

Kenshin Ryu was Mr. Hayashi's expression of Ryukyu Kobudo, based upon his interpretation of the Kobudo of Shinken Taira and Kenko Nakaima, his weapons teachers. For a time, Mr. Hayashi was a regional chief instructor for Mr. Taira. I remember hearing that Kenshin is an alternate pronunciation of Nakaima.

Yamane Ryu, is also an Okinawan bojutsu art. It descends from Sanda Chinen to Masami Chinen, to Chogi Kishaba to Messrs. Toshihiro Oshiro and Kiyoshi Nishime. Mr. Oshiro taught Harvey's instructor, Mr. Minakami, and myself. In recent years, Mr. Oshiro has incorporated other weapons into the kobudo system that he teaches, but the main element of his kobudo is the bo. As he told me once, "Yamane Ryu is Bo. The rest is just 'MSG' for flavor."

Rob

Shitoryu Dude
2nd December 2004, 14:38
I've trained at two of Oshiro's seminars - hard not to smile when I read that MSG remark.

You always end up with sweat soaked through your dogi, but he has such a happy disposition and makes so many small jokes that you are grinning the whole time. :)

:beer:

Andy Watson
2nd December 2004, 16:48
Patrick

If you haven't done so already, you might find more fertile ground in the Ryukyuan Martial Arts forum. Bojutsu and karate are strongly related.

Regards

Jonathon Sumner
2nd December 2004, 18:02
Yes there are Koryu Ryuha that are Bo schools. Two examples:

Takubushima Ryu Bojutsu
Muhimuteki Ryu (called a Jo but is longer like a bo)

and there are Ryuha that teach the Bo as weapon such as Takenouchi Ryu.

The problem you are going to find is that the vast majority of training opportunities exist only in Japan. There are opportunities outside of Japan but finding qualified and skilled instructors with permission to teach a school's system is like finding the needle in the haystack. You might have to travel if you are deadset on a Koryu school.

Like others have said, modern systems and those from Okinawa are probly going to be your best best for Bo instruction. Just because it isn't Koryu doesn't mean it won't work or be of value.

If you are interested in the staff as a weapon don't exclude systems that are not Japanese in origin. I don't have any personal experience myself, but I think England has a history of the staff as a weapon and perhaps there are others as well out there. It would be cool if you could find something obscure...

As to your Q3: I wouldn't know. I do think that you should spend the time to look around and don't just jump into the first thing that comes your way.

As to Q4... well that's all up to you. If you find a system worth doing and a group of people worth associating with, then profeciency isn't that big of a deal, do it for life!

For self-defence you might like a baseball bat better. No one will ask you why you are carrying a bat around the park but walking down the street with a six foot stick is going to get you noticed... besides it's hard to get a stick that long out of a car in a hurry.

Good Luck

J. (take me with a grain of salt) Sumner

dsomers
2nd December 2004, 19:01
I do Kobudo from the Ryukyu Kobudo lineage of Taira Shinken , & I live in Tampa . My instructor is Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei , he was a direct student of Taira Shinken Sensei . I was given permission from Nakamoto Sensei to start a study group here in the United States . If you are interested , please contact me privately .
I also have friends in Ocala , that do Ryukyu Kobudo under Hidemei Tomayose Sensei ; and my best friend in Zephyrhills does Matayoshi Kobudo under Gakiya Sensei . I can put you in touch w/ any of them , as well , if you want . We all do bojutsu as part of the syllabus .
Good Luck in your search !

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu

dsomers
2nd December 2004, 19:12
I forgot to mention , I have another friend in Ocala that does Matayoshi Kobudo , as well . He was a direct student of Katsuyoshi Kanei . I could put you in touch w/ any of them , if you wish .

David

pdavidson6
3rd December 2004, 01:16
It's amazing how fast this forum gets the frank and honest answers to my questions- and quick at that. Jonathan- thanks for being so straight up, but don't worry. I'm really not getting into this just for self defense. That's part of it, yes, but it's much more than that.

I respect the Japanese Culture since a not-so-recent 4 month visit to Japan. I don't know what it is, but the
whole place, with its arts, martial or otherwise is something I hold a deep respect for. I want to learn a style in order to relieve the stress of everyday life through a healthy exercise both spiritually and mentally as well as physically.

Why the interest in a bo or longstaff...
I'm not sure really. Just seems like fluid movements- and I like that.

Hopefully I can finally figure out which form, or, style, or whatever it is I need (and I'm doing some research too :) ) that lets me follow through with this. So keep it coming everybody! I'll post on here for life if I can find what I'm truly looking for.

-Patrick Davidson

Jonathon Sumner
5th December 2004, 02:33
Patrick

You might consider the Jo as a system. The jo is taught as a weapon in some systems and as the main weapon in Shinto Muso Ryu. Not being an expert in anything I can't say for sure, but I think you can manupulate a jo in any fashioned like a bo, but because of its length one might be able to actually do more with it in terms of manipulation than you can with a bo.

There a few video tapes out there where you might be able to see some demonstration of Jodo/Jojutsu.

Just a thought...

JS

J. A. Crippen
21st September 2005, 22:13
Are there particular varieties of bo used in koryu bojutsu or do most ryuha just use whatever six shaku stick happens to be handy? Are there ryuha out there that use the tapered bo commonly found among karateka, or is this a relatively modern invention as I suspect? Are there width requirements for certain ryuha?

I know many ryuha have a bojutsu founded upon the principle of "oops I just broke my yari", so perhaps the very idea of a 'standard' bo is ridiculous. But I seem to recall there being a number of interesting variations on the bo, such as iron banded ones, metal capped ones, and octagonal ones. Old illustrations apparently show warriors using black lacquered staves and poles, so maybe the humble bo was occasionally given the same sort of treatment by an admirer?

On a tangentially related note, is there any bojutsu done in Shinto Muso Ryu jodo, or is it strictly jo? Going on the idea that jodo is an evolution from bojutsu I would guess not, but that's just a guess.

sven beulke
22nd September 2005, 14:45
Hello,
there is are no bo-forms practiced in Shinto Muso Ryu. The jo techniques seems to be derived from Katori Shinto Ryu naginata, sword and bo techniques. The Katori Shinto Ryu bo is a rokushaku-bo(ca 1,83m), maybe the most common
type in koryu. The movements here not seems to be related to the naginata techniques of the ryu so there is maybe no "broken naginata/yari" reason for the bo-forms. By the way handels a jo(ca. 1,28m long) very different compared with a bo.

TrueGamerOmega
22nd September 2005, 21:27
Hello, this is my first post on this forum.

I would like to know if anyone could help me get information on Yari-justu and Naginata-justu. I am VERY fond of polearms such as spears, halberds, etc. I would really like to learn more than what I currently know about them. I have been self-training in polearms for 4+ years. Thank you.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask. I'll answer any question you ask about me.

Mark Barlow
22nd September 2005, 22:57
I'm not qualified to give much info on the yari or naginata but just for future reference, it's not yarijutsu but rather sojutsu.

TrueGamerOmega
23rd September 2005, 06:12
Arigatou for that small piece of information.

nicojo
23rd September 2005, 06:13
Well I'm not sure what you want to know. You posted this in the Gendai forum, so you may already know that there is a modern-day budo form of naginata-do. It is a little like kendo, though the naginata is used primarily.

There are older schools (koryu) that have sojutsu and naginatajutsu, so you may find something by searching in those forums.

I don't think there is any sort of gendai sojutsu, though evidently some of the ninpo groups will study it.

What exactly are you looking for? History, a place to train, or..?

TrueGamerOmega
24th September 2005, 17:17
What I'm really looking for is information on techniques and other things. Although if you know of a place in Mississippi where I can learn them that would be quite useful.

Although I would especially be interested in koryu naginata-do.

niten ninja
24th September 2005, 18:38
"Kyle Ingram
Currently studying Shotokan Karate
& Investigating legitimacy of Konigun Ninjutsu"

I can't help with your question but, I can help with konigun Ninjutsu, go to the "Bad Budo" section and you should see a thread on them... should answer all questions of legitimacy.

Mr. Matt
25th September 2005, 00:05
Check out http://koryu.com/guide/ryuguide.html

that would be a good place to start for getting the names of the styles. Then try the guys in the koryu areas.

Mukeido
25th September 2005, 10:53
I would especially be interested in koryu naginata-do.

"do" forms 道 are not considered koryu. Naginatajutsu is koryu. Naginatdo is more correctly termed atarashii naginatdo and is gendai.


Investigating legitimacy of Konigun Ninjutsu

What's there to "investigate?" It's fake, simple.

TrueGamerOmega
25th September 2005, 18:29
Thank you for the link. Thank you Mukeido for the "do" correction.

Also, I have read all the threads on Konigun.

allan
25th September 2005, 21:09
Youmight want to get yourself a copy of Ellis Amdur's book, OLD SCHOOL.

Available through his website at www.edgework.info

There is a long essay on the the naginata in there. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough.


Regards,

ScottUK
25th September 2005, 23:49
Not sure why this is in the 'Gendai Budo' section. Go ask in the 'Sword Arts' section - people are into pointy things there...

Bruce Mitchell
26th September 2005, 01:54
"do" forms ? are not considered koryu. Naginatajutsu is koryu. Naginatdo is more correctly termed atarashii naginatdo and is gendai.



What's there to "investigate?" It's fake, simple.
To be precise, there are koryu forms of naginata which sometimes refer to themselves as such-and-such-ryu naginatajutsu, but Atarashi Naginata is the proper name for the Gendai form. Naginata-do is specifically not used, and should not be used.

MarkF
27th September 2005, 09:29
..."do" forms 道 are not considered koryu.

I take very mild exception to this comment. The arts practiced at the Kodokan, judo in particular, is not a modern term. These kanji ju-do were chosen specifically because a koryu style of tai jutsu and weapons was called jiu-do by its founder in the late 17th century or early 18th century. Jikishin-ryu Ju-do. However it was pronounced, the kanji are identical to Judo. It also used as its main training style, ran, as in ran-dori. While kata was important, ran was at least as important if not more so, especially in the tai-jutsu area of the ryu.

Kyudo and kyujutsu are virtually the same thing, always training with some form of competitive practice. Most koryu of all kinds practiced taryu jiai which is thought only to be the hallmark of the meiji era and on.

Besides, the terms are almost interchangable, the only true difference is in the time it was used. No one really set out to change bujutsu to budo, it just happened, on a timline or continuum of sorts. I sincerely doubt anyone set out to separate them into two columns. Japanese sword arts contain many examples of interchangeable styles, some using jutsu, others -do. Some arts are technically gendai but are taught in the older, classical way while may koryu have adopted some aspects of their arts to some of the ways of gendai. Daito ryu being a large example of not knowing which foot came down first.

But like I said, I only have a mild interest in it, as I am sure most of us have a different take on the subject (do a search of E-budo using those terms and you should find some examples of threads kept in the archives on this very subject). I doubt a new thread would grab very many these days.

Also, it is an exception noted not a law of the jungle to which I protest.;)


Mark

Mukeido
27th September 2005, 14:58
Naginata-do is specifically not used, and should not be used.

My original comment should have read Naginatdo is more correctly termed atarashii naginata and is gendai. Sorry, typo.


I take very mild exception to this comment. The arts practiced at the Kodokan, judo in particular, is not a modern term. These kanji ju-do were chosen specifically because a koryu style of tai jutsu and weapons was called jiu-do by its founder in the late 17th century or early 18th century. Jikishin-ryu Ju-do. However it was pronounced, the kanji are identical to Judo. It also used as its main training style, ran, as in ran-dori. While kata was important, ran was at least as important if not more so, especially in the tai-jutsu area of the ryu.

Kyudo and kyujutsu are virtually the same thing, always training with some form of competitive practice. Most koryu of all kinds practiced taryu jiai which is thought only to be the hallmark of the meiji era and on.

Besides, the terms are almost interchangable, the only true difference is in the time it was used. No one really set out to change bujutsu to budo, it just happened, on a timline or continuum of sorts. I sincerely doubt anyone set out to separate them into two columns. Japanese sword arts contain many examples of interchangeable styles, some using jutsu, others -do. Some arts are technically gendai but are taught in the older, classical way while may koryu have adopted some aspects of their arts to some of the ways of gendai. Daito ryu being a large example of not knowing which foot came down first.

But like I said, I only have a mild interest in it, as I am sure most of us have a different take on the subject (do a search of E-budo using those terms and you should find some examples of threads kept in the archives on this very subject). I doubt a new thread would grab very many these days.

Also, it is an exception noted not a law of the jungle to which I protest.

I was of course being VERY general. My teachers often refer to koryu arts as simply budo, kobudo, kobujutsu and at other times as bujutsu. They also use kenjutsu, kenpo, and kendo interchangeably - often referring to the one form. Also jujutsu, taijutsu, kogusoku and judo are all used in my school to refer to the same techniques. It does sometimes depend on the "intention" and "ideology" behind the techniques. There is of course no true "rule" - but I was just being general. Donn Draeger was good at being general in this manner when decribing jutsu and do forms and it does help someone with little or no knowledge to get a "general" feeling for which is which.

I do think that the gendai arts heavily influenced the practice of most if not all koryu schools, many of which would have passed on into history without the gendai abilities to practice in a safer way.

cxt
27th September 2005, 17:45
Mr Kemlo

Totally disagree with you.

You say above:

"I do think the gendai arts heavily influenced the practice of most of not all koryu schools, many of which would have passed on into history without the gendai ability to practice in a safer way."

Are your serious?

1-For that statement to be true you would have to show that the koryu schools alterted or changed their training to adapt to a "safer" ie gendai method.

Since they did not--its an untrue statement.

2-Define "most"--reason I ask is that the Skoss's produced a 3 volume set of ryu that train pretty much today as they did "back in the day."
So where do you get "most?"

3- While your at it-please list for me exactly how the koryu adpoted gendai methods--which specific methods and which specific ryu did so?

4-Exactly which koryu was "heavily influenced" by gendai methods?

5-The koryu lasted for many 100's of years--without a titular "safer" gendai method--what is the rational for them suddenly just vanishing?

6-If they declined, what is your support of it being because they lacked a "safer" method of practice?
Would it not be more possible that the decline had more to do with the skill being "outdated" than "unsafe."
After all western swordsmen have been using very "safe" foil-like weapons for many, many decades--and yet the "battlefield" arts declined just the same.

So it seem that there is far more logical conclusion here.

Don't mean to sound harsh--perhaps I misunderstood your posit.

I just seriously don't get how you arrived at that conclusion.

My girlfriends fishnet stockings have fewer holes than that.


Chris Thomas

tddeangelo
27th September 2005, 19:51
I sincerely doubt anyone set out to separate the two into two columns.

Mark,

Not to stir the pot, but isn't that what Kano expressly WANTED to do? Didn't he wish to preserve that which saw as good and worthy of preservation in his jujutsu studies while diminishing and/or discarding that which was not so good (in his estimation)?

What I've read on Ueshiba is similar. Take the totality of what they learned, and they wanted to preserve that which was good in the koryu forms and evolve it into something better.

And isn't "budo" considered the natural evolution of the older "bujutsu" styles?

*shrug*

Just something that bounced around in my skull while reading this... if it doesn't seem right, don't take it too seriously. :)

Tom

cxt
27th September 2005, 20:11
Tom

"Isnt budo considerd the natrual evolution of the older bujutsu styles?"

NOT by the "older bujutsu styles." :)

Perhaps "others" might see it that way.

Then again it may depend on how you/they personally define the difference, if any, between, "budo" and "bujutsu."

I tend to lean to toward the idea that its a pretty much a "western" distinction, one that has less meaning overseas--and less implication.

Could always be wrong of course--would not be the first time.

Chris Thomas

tddeangelo
27th September 2005, 20:24
Tom

"Isnt budo considerd the natrual evolution of the older bujutsu styles?"

NOT by the "older bujutsu styles." :)

Perhaps "others" might see it that way.

Then again it may depend on how you/they personally define the difference, if any, between, "budo" and "bujutsu."

I tend to lean to toward the idea that its a pretty much a "western" distinction, one that has less meaning overseas--and less implication.

Could always be wrong of course--would not be the first time.

Chris Thomas

I think the originators of the various budo often billed them that way...as the natural progression of the older systems of military techniques (maybe that's better to use the English than the Japanese). Obviously, those practicing the various koryu don't prefer gendai budo. If they did, they wouldn't be with the koryu at all.

My point was more that I think Kano *did* want to create two "columns" (to continue with Mark's comment), because he very purposefully set out to distinguish his style as "new and improved" (to use an anachronism) when compared to the older, existing styles.

Tom

cxt
27th September 2005, 20:56
Tom

I don't know, but its an interesting question.

Hard to know exactly what Kano "really" felt.

On the one hand we have statements by kano himself that clearly state that he saw himself as a "preserver" of the "old ways."
A list of classical jujutsu experts and masters that taught at the kodokan in the early days reads like a "whose who" of classcial jujutsu experts.
Kano even sent/requested his students to be taught classical koryu.
Arranged for the instruction of some of "his" people in aikido and allowed Funakoshi to teach karate in his dojo.

On the other hand we have a guy who also clearly stated that his method was "new"--and saw it as both a highly effective form of "self training" AND an effective fighting art.

Which is one of the reasons he was so respected---he refused to allow his appraoch to be so easily "pigeonholed" as being "just" one thing.

There is a good lesson there I think.

Chris Thomas

Mukeido
28th September 2005, 01:20
Are your serious?

1-For that statement to be true you would have to show that the koryu schools alterted or changed their training to adapt to a "safer" ie gendai method.
Since they did not--its an untrue statement.
2-Define "most"--reason I ask is that the Skoss's produced a 3 volume set of ryu that train pretty much today as they did "back in the day."
So where do you get "most?"
3- While your at it-please list for me exactly how the koryu adpoted gendai methods--which specific methods and which specific ryu did so?
4-Exactly which koryu was "heavily influenced" by gendai methods?

ALL And sorry it is a true statement. If you are hurt by this I'm sorry. Many want to believe that what they are practicing is THE ORIGINAL and unchanged methods of the samurai. Dream on.

ALL KORYU JUJUTSU SCHOOLS THAT PRACTICE KAITEN WAZA AND UKEMI WAZA BORROWED THE SAFER METHODS OF FALLING FROM KANO'S JUDO. THEY HAD TO, THEY WERE BECOMING ANTIQUATED AND OUTMODED BY JUDO.

Throwing techniques of the koryu originally included throwing the opponent down in an uncompromising position or throwing them down on their neck or arms. The koryu today practice safe throwing techniques and safe falling/rolling techniques. If they didn't there'd be lots of injuries.

ALL KORYU JUJUTSU WHO PRACTICE GRAPPLING TECHNIQUES BY GRABBING ONTO A (HEAVY DUTY AND SPECIALLY DESIGNED) UNIFORM ARE PRACTICING KANO'S NEW METHOD.

Where the koryu grappling arts would NOT have relied on the strength of a modern uniform to effect grips and holds - they do today. That is directly from Judo. Kano's biggest contribution to saving the koryu arts was the requiring of students to grip each other by the garments when executing techniques. He even designed a heavy duty keikogi which all koryu today wear. While it would have been acceptable to pull someone closer by the sleeve, the fact that Japanese clothing is hand-sewn means that you would have probably ended up with a sleeve that had been ripped from the rest of the garment. Also, on the battlefield it would have been dangerous to hold onto an opponents armour for too long.

Don't practice with your head in the sand.


.......that train pretty much today as they did "back in the day."

RUBBISH. Which "day?" 100 years ago, 300, 400? It's a nice fantasy to think that the koryu have remained unchanged and retain the original methods of yesteryear, but it's just that - a fantasy.

Yagyu Shingan ryu practices in armour, but have you noticed that they remove their datemono? Why? To make practice safer I was told by Shimazu Kenji sensei. By making their practice safer they are also allowing for a greater number of technique variation. They also sit in seiza while wearing armour, clearly not practical and painful with full suneate. The proper method of sitting while in armour would be agura. Seiza was for women and priests, but so many of the koryu practice sitting in seiza.

How many koryu practice drawing a sword while sitting in seiza? A sword is NOT worn inside a building or while sitting - especially in seiza.

The koryu have evolved over time to accept the gendai methods of safer techniques and practrice. They have accepted techniques that would not have been practiced by their originators. Does this diminish their cultural significance? No.

Stephen Hayes had this to say about "traditional":
"If yours is an ancient tradition, at what time period did your tradition "freeze" into its final form? When did your tradition stop growing, researching, and incorporating innovation? If you are practicing with Edo era (late 1600s through mid 1800s) swords, your tradition has chosen to change, grow, and go beyond the techniques of the Sengoku Warring States period (1500s), during which a completely different style of sword was used. And if you claim to practice the original tradition of Japanese sword as applied in the Sengoku era, then you are stating that your tradition chose to grow and adapt beyond the Muromachi era (1300s into the 1500s) with its distinct style of swords and techniques. How do you decide just how traditional you want to be?

If yours is an ancient tradition, how would the founder do things if he or she were starting out today? What was the founder's motivating purpose for creating what eventually became your tradition? If it was self-protection, what were the prevailing types of attack that he or she had to deal with? Do you think that those same attacks are in use today? If the point was health cultivation, do you believe that they knew more or different things about health back then as compared with today? If the point was spiritual or character development, what were the cultural conditions that the founder wanted your martial practice to counter? Do those same conditions apply to your own culture in this age right now?"

tddeangelo
28th September 2005, 13:47
Mind providing some basis for your knowledge? I'm not challenging you, I'm simply curious.

Mukeido
28th September 2005, 14:55
Mind providing some basis for your knowledge? I'm not challenging you, I'm simply curious.

Experience and hard research, practicing several koryu and gendai systems, and long discussions with teachers/practitioners of as many arts (both koryu and gendai) that I can get a chance to talk with.

cxt
28th September 2005, 22:20
Kemlo

Sorry, bro--your unsupported opinion cuts no ice with me.

You fail to support even one of you "fantasy" posits.

Oh, you "shout" loudly enough--just are not at all credible.

Throwing techniques--ok not one koryu ryu in all japan had any falling techinques like judos?
Your posit is that they were develped out of thin air?

Or could it be just as possible that the techniques are just adeptation of exsisting techniques?

Prove it.

2- What would be the effective difference (note thats EFFECTIVE--not a nitpicking difference) between grabbing a heavy--strong gi top and grabbing the edge of a persons armor?
Would not armor be strong enough to make a throw?

3-"Proper" way for sitting for whom?
You, sitting here TODAY can say with authority that no-one in 1000 or so years EVER sit in seiza--THAT WAS NOT A WOMEN OR A PRIEST?

Nice time machine you must have there bro.

4-Course that point is moot with the schools that use iai-goshi (sp) instead.

5- That ASSUMES folks are wearing shin armor--which is odd, since I can look right at period paintings and drawings and read period descriptions of FOLKS NOT WEARING the said piece of armor.
Indeed certian classes/types/periods of warrior did not wear them at all.
Which renders both your posit and any contentions you draw from it moot.

AGAIN--please provide the source cites for your contentions of "most"

And AGAIN please list the support for koryu arts "barrowing" safer methods of practice from the gendai arts--you only list one HIGHLY questionable one.
"Questioable" since you only ASSERT the posit--you don't actually support it.

Oh, and its STILL ONLY ONE EXAMPLE--stop me if your having trouble here--but "one" is NOT "most" now is it?

BTW-quoteing Stephan Hayes as if he were Moses himself, newly returned from the mountian, tablets in hand.
Is not all that impressive.

A-Questionable that Hayes practices koryu- does the japanese government recognize his art as koryu?

B-Cirucler arguement-the quote DOES NOT ACTUALLY SAY WHAT YOU USE IT FOR.
The quote in fact asks a retorical question--then answers it in a fashion which paints his OWN art in the best possibal light.

Basically its a justifiaction for his art NOT being a koryu.

Do try to do better next time---otherwise this gets old so fast.


Chris Thomas

Mukeido
28th September 2005, 22:46
Whatever. :)

cxt
28th September 2005, 22:57
Kemlo

No, "whatevvver!" ;)

(needs more "attitude" and a "talk to the hand" kinda gesture--which I have no idea how to duplicate on-line :) )



Chris Thomas

devourment77
30th September 2005, 05:31
Shimizu Nobuko sensei teaches koryu naginatajutsu twice a year in Lubbock Texas. She taught Jikishinkage Ryu Naginatajutsu for many years at the Nippon Budokan but now calls it Ryouen Ryu Naginatajutsu within the Komei Jyuku and puts equal emphasis on waza, kumitachi and tameshigiri.

This style of naginatajutsu also teaches tanto waza within some of the the naginata waza.

I hope this helps.

ChrisMoon
1st October 2005, 03:15
[QUOTE=Mukeido]ALL And sorry it is a true statement. If you are hurt by this I'm sorry. Many want to believe that what they are practicing is THE ORIGINAL and unchanged methods of the samurai. Dream on.



ALL KORYU JUJUTSU WHO PRACTICE GRAPPLING TECHNIQUES BY GRABBING ONTO A (HEAVY DUTY AND SPECIALLY DESIGNED) UNIFORM ARE PRACTICING KANO'S NEW METHOD.

Where the koryu grappling arts would NOT have relied on the strength of a modern uniform to effect grips and holds - they do today. That is directly from Judo. Kano's biggest contribution to saving the koryu arts was the requiring of students to grip each other by the garments when executing techniques. He even designed a heavy duty keikogi which all koryu today wear. While it would have been acceptable to pull someone closer by the sleeve, the fact that Japanese clothing is hand-sewn means that you would have probably ended up with a sleeve that had been ripped from the rest of the garment. Also, on the battlefield it would have been dangerous to hold onto an opponents armour for too long.

Don't practice with your head in the sand.



QUOTE]

How old was Kano when he formulated judo? I seem to remember seeing a picture of his keikogi from his teenage years and it was a heavy duty one.

MarkF
1st October 2005, 04:54
Mark,

Not to stir the pot, but isn't that what Kano expressly WANTED to do? Didn't he wish to preserve that which saw as good and worthy of preservation in his jujutsu studies while diminishing and/or discarding that which was not so good (in his estimation)?

What I've read on Ueshiba is similar. Take the totality of what they learned, and they wanted to preserve that which was good in the koryu forms and evolve it into something better.

And isn't "budo" considered the natural evolution of the older "bujutsu"

*shrug*

Just something that bounced around in my skull while reading this... if it doesn't seem right, don't take it too seriously. :)

Tom

Well, if you want to be technical about it...

Some see it that way, and yes Kano definitely wanted to preserve what was all ready being lost, but his reasons for using the term "judo" instead of "jujutsu" was more along the lines of making sure that people understood that he wasn't *only* creating a style of jujutsu, but a repository of sorts. Kano did, after all, teach or had others teach what today some call bujutsu, such as defensive and offensive ways of using a sword. Most photos, however, show him teaching women these kinds of defense. Besides, what I was really referring to was simply the terminology and not the actual thing itself. IOW, I do not think there was a concious effort to divide budo and bujutsu until much later when there was enough evidence to debate the subject. On top of that, I have to admit those are not exactly my words, the budo/bujutsu time continuum comes from a person who is well-respected in koryu and who used to be a common poster (not that he was common), but it was his argument in a discussion on the same topic that area I was using.

I agree with you concerning Uyeshiba but his reasons had a more striking spiritual reason or reasons behind it while Kano was probably being more practical: pragmatic v. esoteric, if you will.

As far as I know, budo really shouldn't be any different than bujutsu. Or better said, perhaps, that budo doesn't necessarily mean old nor does budo mean new. Even Kano said that we study jujutsu so that one day we practice judo. Kano did have certain reasons for some things, standardized ukemi, invitational shiai as opposed to taryu jiai which he detested. The latter particularly was important so that people would become better people instead of better or meaner hoodlums, something else he disliked of some of the schools of his time (some actually jumped students in, IOW, beat them up, before admittance to the particular jujutsu or kobudo schools).

So you can say it is like that, but I doubt you will find much difference in a kyudo dojo than in a kyujutsu dojo. That is probably the better argument that the two are interchangeable. Of course, it could be said this way:

Charlie Chan: "Jujutsu please, not Judo."

And just to give you more credit, Kano did have more than a dozen schools of what we call koryu jujutsu helping him when it became time to organized the gokyo no waza. In that context, you are right that some things did have to be eliminated, though it would probably be more along the lines of changing the non-practical forms into practical ones. That was his gift to budo.


Mark

MarkF
1st October 2005, 06:41
How old was Kano when he formulated judo? I seem to remember seeing a picture of his keikogi from his teenage years and it was a heavy duty one.

The Kodokan was founded in 1882. Jigoro Kano was born in October of 1860 so he was 21/22 yr. old.

As a teen, he probably wore what others wore in his particular dojo at the time. Kodokan Judo was officially formulated in 1895 or 1896, but Kano's new art was sufficiently different in 1882 to say it was founded then as he had all ready changed to the licensing system used outside of budo, th dan-i system.

Most photos of Kano teaching or demonstrating show that he does not wear a judogi much of the time, but the traditional dress of Japan in those days. He did pose for photos in which he demonstrated kata or in how to wear the modern judogi, but as the original dogi were made of canvass and were hand-sewn were not seen as very comfortable nor durable. This led to cotton, but it took a very long time to get from there to here, or from then to now. Originally, there were no shitagi and shorts to mid-thigh were the only pants worn. Both the jacket and pants grew longer and heavier over time, but even in my time there were many changes. When I started in 1963, the pants came down just below the knee, the jackets were all single knit, with sleeves just covering the elbow if you held your arms straight down. The shitagi did have patches to protect the knee but these too, barely reached below knee.

Attend any judo demonstration of shiai and you can easily see the difference, but the clothing does not make the art or sport, the person inside the clothing does that.


Mark

cxt
2nd October 2005, 03:18
So the argument boils down to clothing?

Ok, look at it like this.

A-The heavy cotten uwagei (sp???) seems to be pretty widespread amoung koryu folks---you mean to tell me that it is also a "modern" invention?

A heavier quilted top seems to have been pretty widespread in colder weather.

B-Hand sewing--fabrics that have been hand sewn have been around vastly longer than "machine sewn" cloth--and yet we have very little record of clothing just "ripping" all over the place and all the time.
Its entirly possible that hand sewn fabric could well be VERY sturdy.

(as an aside the "hand sewn kendo armor is MORE expensive and more durable than the "machine sewn" versions.)

(as and another aside the wrapping of the katana--a good one that is--is woven silk and it stands up quite well to the constant, consistant abrasion of daily practice--explain that)

C-The use of a tough and rugged underjacket would have been commenly worn under armor--so a tough material did in fact exsist.

D-The use of various "capture" weapons we used by police and other authories--a number of them we used to wrap and trap the CLOTHING of those attacked--if its tough enough to catch with a spiky weapon and hold the person wearing it--it should be tough enough to grab.

E-Some koryu ryu have techniques that call for a grab on the clothing.

F-The reason that such techniques might well be in the minority is that most techniques were used vs hands/wrist etc.
Grabbing a guys jacket would not really stop him from grabbing A WEAPON AND KILLING YOU.

ie its NOT the jacket that is so different--its the outlook and mindset that "different."

G-Some techniques could well have been directed vs the armor a foe was wearing--surely the armor was strong enough to get a good grip on and strong enough to use to throw?

Grabbing sections of armor and grabbing the shoulder/lapel/sleeve of a judo-gi are not that different.

H-Koryu techniqes were developed aand used by pratical folks---why could you not just make a small change in where you grab--the sleeve rather a wrist--when folks STOPPED carring weapons and you no longer had to worry about getting stabbed?


And that just off the top of my head.



Chris Thomas

ChrisMoon
2nd October 2005, 07:24
Chris Moon


So the argument boils down to clothing?

Ok, look at it like this.

A-The heavy cotten uwagei (sp???) seems to be pretty widespread amoung koryu folks---you mean to tell me that it is also a "modern" invention?

A heavier quilted top seems to have been pretty widespread in colder weather.

B-Hand sewing--fabrics that have been hand sewn have been around vastly longer than "machine sewn" cloth--and yet we have very little record of clothing just "ripping" all over the place and all the time.
Its entirly possible that hand sewn fabric could well be VERY sturdy.

(as an aside the "hand sewn kendo armor is MORE expensive and more durable than the "machine sewn" versions.)

(as and another aside the wrapping of the katana--a good one that is--is woven silk and it stands up quite well to the constant, consistant abrasion of daily practice--explain that)

C-The use of a tough and rugged underjacket would have been commenly worn under armor--so a tough material did in fact exsist.

D-The use of various "capture" weapons we used by police and other authories--a number of them we used to wrap and trap the CLOTHING of those attacked--if its tough enough to catch with a spiky weapon and hold the person wearing it--it should be tough enough to grab.

E-Some koryu ryu have techniques that call for a grab on the clothing.

F-The reason that such techniques might well be in the minority is that most techniques were used vs hands/wrist etc.
Grabbing a guys jacket would not really stop him from grabbing A WEAPON AND KILLING YOU.

ie its NOT the jacket that is so different--its the outlook and mindset that "different."

G-Some techniques could well have been directed vs the armor a foe was wearing--surely the armor was strong enough to get a good grip on and strong enough to use to throw?

Grabbing sections of armor and grabbing the shoulder/lapel/sleeve of a judo-gi are not that different.

H-Koryu techniqes were developed aand used by pratical folks---why could you not just make a small change in where you grab--the sleeve rather a wrist--when folks STOPPED carring weapons and you no longer had to worry about getting stabbed?


And that just off the top of my head.



Chris Thomas

Chris,

I don't disagree with anything you have written there. Are you sure you are not directing this to Mukeido???

cxt
2nd October 2005, 20:18
Chris Moon

Sorry, my mistake--my fault totally!!!!

Mis-read whom posted what---kinda why I seldom log in on the week-ends.

I will e-mail the mods to see if they can delete your name form the top of my response.

Again, sorry.

Chris Thomas

Tal
26th January 2006, 19:32
Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

Thanks!
Tal Bustan.

kokumo
26th January 2006, 21:01
Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

Thanks!
Tal Bustan.

I'm guessing it would be a pretty low-traffic forum, as there simply aren't that many people practicing naginata or other polearms.

But if you have a question, you might do better in the Koryu History and Tradition subforum than in Sword Arts; unless of course you're thinking about atarashii naginata, in which case you might want to take it to Gendai Budo.

Hope this helps,

Fred Little

George Kohler
26th January 2006, 21:19
I believe we had one when we first started E-Budo, but no one used it. After a while John Linsdey slimmed up E-Budo to what we have now. If there is enough interest I can start up a atarashii naginata forum. For koryu naginata questions we can just use the "Koryu Forum".

DCPan
26th January 2006, 21:24
Maybe I am asking the wrong question. Granted that e-budo doesn't have a Naginata (or Yari / any polearm) forum, does anyone know of one around the net?

Thanks!
Tal Bustan.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

George Kohler
27th January 2006, 02:52
Received some responses through PM's. Here you go.

J. L. Badgley
27th January 2006, 13:21
So, now there's a forum. What shall we fill it with?

FWIW, I generally do Atarashii Naginata with Capital Area Budokai class in Arlington, VA. Currently 1-dan.

Johnny Yuma
27th January 2006, 16:45
Awesome, what is the testing like for 1st dan in the Naginata style that you study?
I've never swung one, so I haven't the foggiest clue.
Have you cut with one? If so, how do they compare to a shinken?
Thanks,
Gil

J. L. Badgley
27th January 2006, 23:38
Atarshii Naginata ("New" Naginata--it used to be part of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei as one of the other arts until it had enough members to form its own renmei, ZNNR (Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei (http://naginata.jp/)). There is now an International Naginata Federation, and, in the US, there is the USNF (United States Naginata Federation (http://www.naginata.org/usnf/usnf.html)).

Grading requirements are actually online, here: http://www.naginata.org/usnf/USNFDanStandards.htm

FYI, this is much more like modern kendo in many ways. It is often closely tied in with traditional koryu organizations, like Tendo Ryu, but there is no direct association I am aware of--I believe that was mainly for political reasons. There was nothing quite like 'seitei iai' for the various ryuha (or, perhaps more appropriately, atarashii naginata *is* the seitei).

As for tameshigiri--I have never done it with a live naginata, although I must admit that doing tameshigiri for battodo has made me more concious of things like hasuji, movement, connection of the hips and body with the naginata, etc. (not that I'm doing it right--just that I see myself screwing up that much more often ;) ).

gyrfalcon
2nd February 2006, 16:55
Awesome, what is the testing like for 1st dan in the Naginata style that you study?
I've never swung one, so I haven't the foggiest clue.
Have you cut with one? If so, how do they compare to a shinken?
Thanks,
Gil

I've swung a real naginata, though I've never cut with one. They're quite heavy, much more forward weighted than a shinken or a wooden naginata. Good tenouchi and body movements are thus even more critical, if you don't want to be jerked around by the weapon.

paradoxbox
9th February 2006, 10:59
Hi, many variants of kukishin ryu bojutsu have a number of bo including in their teachings. I believe there is a bo with 2 large weights on the end that resemble dumbells, the idea is to strike with those.

There is another bo type weapon which is very very thick and used to blocking cuts from tachi, but it's thick enough to block hits from axes, hammers or just about anything else as well. If I remember correctly it's in the shape of an octagon.

According to what I've been told, some bo of the kukishin ryu had stones attached to the end of them for use in striking as well.

Nathan Scott
12th February 2006, 12:18
Takubushima Ryu Bojutsu

The correct translation is "Chikubushima-ryu".

See this thread for more info:

Chikubujima-Ryu Bojutsu (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12214)

Regards,

Nathan Scott
12th February 2006, 12:29
Resources on Japanese polearms can now be found in the introduction thread stuck to the top of this forum:

Posting Guidelines - READ THIS! (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32687)

Regards,

Meitetsu
22nd September 2012, 13:20
Resources on Japanese polearms can now be found in the introduction thread stuck to the top of this forum:

Posting Guidelines - READ THIS! (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32687)

Regards,

Re: The last bit of the Miyamoto Musashi quote. I wonder if its the following expression in Japanese?
生兵法は大怪我の基 A little learning is a dangerous thing