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TommyK
2nd June 2000, 03:48
Greetings,

I was having a discussion with some new students (less than 3 years) to the martial arts.

In it I explained the term 'Koryu', and after a thorough explanation, I was asked the following question:

"Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"

Nevertheless, I was surprised that somehow these new students had heard this version of the Koryu art and its students.

Any thoughts?

Regards,
TommyK

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Tommy K. Militello

Dokanyama
2nd June 2000, 06:21
I think all of us want to believe in what we are doing.Many of us, myself included, started in what ever form we did, just because it was the closest or the only choice there was. Even without experience, or knowledge of what else there is out there, many of us suffered from the attitude that what we are doing is the best martial art one could possable be do.

This attitude is commonly found in both koryu and and gendai budo, both in the States and Japan.

A lot of people want to do Koryu, or Gracie Jujutsu, or whatever just because it's popular today. Think of the Ninja craze and all the people who got involved with that in the not so distant past.

I think it's natural to have this attitude at first, especially with people new to budo or people who are young, though certainly not everyone has this attitude. The mark of maturity in budo is when you begin to take confidence in what you do, and let other people do what they want to do without making value judgements based on style or what have you.There is always room for critical discussion conducted in a "professional" way.


Telling lies about your linage, rank, Ryu... these are exceptions, and if Japanese budo is to be maintained then this shouldn't be tolerated from anyone. Mistakes are natural and should be forgiven. Attitudes like those described in Tommyk's post are to be expected and we should do our best to guide the less experienced with tollerance and whatever wisdom we have.

Those who have been in Budo a while, and yet haven't developed the maturity to not feel threatend by other budo and budoka should perhaps be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Thomas James
Niiza, Japan

socho
2nd June 2000, 11:14
I want to hear more about the supermodels. Any of them do koryu (or gendai)? Seriously, though, the other side of the coin from koryu elitism is gendai sour grapes. Enjoy what you study, whatever it is. There is value to be found in (almost) all of it.

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Dave Drawdy

Margaret Lo
2nd June 2000, 17:08
I think there is nothing wrong with well placed elitism.

Joseph Svinth
2nd June 2000, 19:35
If all your practices are to be pre-1868, then all the right-wing fascism needs to go, as does most of the Zen, as these are 20th century accretions. Meanwhile more interest needs to be given to revolvers (used by samurai during various late Tokugawa assassinations)and such. (Handguns are pre-1868, even in Japan.)

Normally, though, koryu is simply a nice name for what in English would normally be called creative anachronism. Nothing wrong with that -- creative anachronism is a nineteenth century concept associated with the Romantics -- but the idea is more English than Japanese.



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Joe
http://ejmas.com

Margaret Lo
2nd June 2000, 20:25
I think that practitioners of koryu arts often have good reason to look down on practitioners of modern arts. I think elitism promotes excellence.

-M-

ericDZR
2nd June 2000, 22:10
i like well placed supermodels!!

Jeff Cook
2nd June 2000, 22:36
Elitism of this nature, Margaret, only promotes excellence within the minds of the snobbish elite.

An elitist who looks down on others is a legend in his/her own mind.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Margaret Lo
2nd June 2000, 23:32
Jeff - just take a look at your local karate McDojo. There is not much there for me to be proud of. I feel that one should not look down on another's technique just because one trains in another style.

However, if I see poor technique and poor understanding of karate, I cannot respect these practitioners.

I think there is less Koryu to go around, and while politics and poor technique also exist in the koryu, it is less pervasive than in the more modern arts. Overall, the modern arts seem to have more problems.

-M-

Jack B
2nd June 2000, 23:37
That is mainly because there is more of them.

The best budo people I know are humble.

Jeff Cook
3rd June 2000, 00:38
I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

TommyK
3rd June 2000, 04:32
Wow!!! What did I start?

I like the logic stream Ms. Lo used in stating her position on elitism, but I personally lean more toward Mr. Cook's position on the subject.

By the by, I have found that the more serious and talented individuals in the arts have little to say about this kind of subject, they just do.

One of the first things I really admired about studing my art was that anyone can 'talk the talk', but on the mat no one lies! Intellectual discussions like this are fine, but the bottom line is can one 'walk the talk'.

I personally feel that anything one can learn something positive from is worth learning, and if it works in the street, all the better. I'm sure there are moves meant to be used against someone in armour, but that can be adapted for use in todays worls.

I thank all of you for your replies, and I ask you...Can not even the McDojo's be of some use?

Regards,
TommyK




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Tommy K. Militello

Kolschey
3rd June 2000, 05:47
One fellow had an interesting take on the role of "Mc-Dojos". His view was that they served as a sort of coarse filter that would tend to attract those with more immature motivations and leave the rest of the more serious dojos free to practice their arts in an adult atmosphere. Those who attend the McDojos and feel that something is lacking will tend to eventually look to more established arts, if they do their homework. Some people are not prepared for the responsibilities of a traditional art, so the market would seem to have provided an abundance of alternatives. The only negative results that seem to come of this are either the aggression that comes from a pseudo martial path without sufficient philosophical grounding, or the belief that one's skills will be sufficient to serve as a substitute for good manners and common sense. When I see a demonstration where people are kicking guns out of other people's hands, I cannot help but find myself dwelling in a state of Social Darwinist reflection. Ah well..

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Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Tetsutaka
3rd June 2000, 13:45
Handgun defenses as they pertain to Social Darwinism??? WOW I like this forum...

I coudn't agree more. So, that begs the question:

Are McDojos the "koryu minor leagues"?

socho
3rd June 2000, 17:12
I'd lilke to get back to the elitism thing. The implication seems to be that koryu are better just because they are koryu. Huge overgeneralization. Is the value of koryu that they are old, or 'authentic', or battle proven? Or is it that they preserve cultural roots of certain martial traditions?
I recently attended (and participated in) a martial arts demo (kobudo embu) at a Shinto shrine in Yokohama, Japan. Twelve major schools did demos, mostly of koryu arts. Some of them were simply hilarious. One style began their forms on tiptoe, pointer finger extended out to the side and down. Another demonstrated swinging huge wooden paddle-things, to the accompaniment of very loud breathing. Certain of the sword forms of some of these schools are so far removed from actual useful techniques that they are now indistinguishable from kabuki dancing. Are these schools/forms inherently worthy of respect because they are koryu? There are some very strange things that go under the name of koryu.
Pride in your style is fine, even healthy. But elitism is by nature exclusionary, sometimes blindly. I agree that there are McDojos out there that demean and diminish the value of martial arts, but to disrespect the students, who may not know any better (yet) but are practicing with good spirit and intent, is an injustice.

Ok, enough soapbox, fire away.



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Dave Drawdy

hyaku
3rd June 2000, 20:01
Sorry, double posting

[This message has been edited by hyaku (edited 06-03-2000).]

hyaku
3rd June 2000, 20:26
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hyaku:

"Oh, I know those people they are the guys who look 'down' on the 'Do' arts. Do they think they are elitists by studying real, but old, combat arts?"
Any thoughts?

Regards,
TommyK
..................
I don't think it applies here in Japan. Saying "I do both" is something I have to write in forums. Gendai Budo is also a term I had never heard of until I joined.

There are differences between older and newer styles and sadly too many. To the extent that very soon some forms will bear no resemblance whatsoever to their original standards. Already in Kendo we see a strike instead of a cut. not what constitutes a good cut but what we need to do to get a point. Yet we call it the way of the sword?

Without a doubt if you want to find something new look at the old.

I would not say "elite" but a pride in being able to study and carry on an old tradition. If anything the peacock syndrome seemed to be far less evident. People seem to be far more interested in practicing an art rather than "look what colour belt I have!"

I would also leave out the word "combat". Reading many threads there seems to be a very fine line if almost non between combat/self defence and Chinese and Japanese Arts.

American Indians dance on their toes and point a lot. Look what modern (at that time) western martial ways did for them.

........................

Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dave Lowry
4th June 2000, 04:46
A member writes of a recent conversation with a new student who suggests the koryu bugei are the province of elitists who “look down” on others and who are snobs in regards to their arts.
A lengthy gallery of philippics results from the post, decrying modern budo, defending elitism, appealing to the virtues of humility, and so on. And on. All of the replies, to my puzzlement, seem to accept prima facie the “fact” that koryu are indeed elitist and encourage snobbery or that at least its representatives display such attitudes.

Am I the only reader who wonders why the original contributor to this topic didn’t respond to the newcomer’s statement by asking for some examples of this alleged elitism?

Given that there are probably fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States, how on earth did a newcomer have intercourse with any of them to have formed such a firsthand view of snobbery? Given that a large percentage of those exponents, for various reasons, are involved in more than one koryu (as well as in the modern budo which they are accused of disdaining), how could they reasonably insist any one ryu is “the best” or that a koryu is “better” than some modern form?

Which ryu and which individuals representing them demonstrate elitism and exactly how do they do it? In more than 30 years of experience with koryu, in meeting a few headmasters of them in Japan and many of their senior members, I have not really encountered this presumed elitism. I’m curious that a “new student” would have such a radically different perception, more so that so many contributors on the topic here would as well. It would be informative for some of them to relate the details, providing some examples of legitimate practitioners of legitimate ryu who affected these attitudes.

pboylan
4th June 2000, 08:39
I think the image of koryu practicioners as being elitist comes mainly from the fact that for non-japanese, about the only way to learn koryu is to go to Japan. The few who have made the quest and progressed far enough to to be able to teach their art, AND have returned to the west can't be bothered to talk about it. If you don't want to practice, they aren't interested om talking about it, and they're not terribly interested in debating with people who aren't willing to make the sacrifices they have (I have some theories about this as well). This can easily give people the idea that they are elitist, when they're really just far more interested in training than in talking.

Peter Boylan

Jeff Cook
4th June 2000, 13:31
Dave,

I personally have not met anyone that fits that description. My responses were directed towards posts that were in support of elitism, and were not assumptive concerning the allegedly pervasive koryu elitism.

I have met many elitist martial artists, but as you say, there aren't very many legitimate koryu practitioners in the U.S (myself included).

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

john mark
4th June 2000, 14:18
Another spin on Mcdojo from the presepecitve of a now retired Kyokushin fighter. Kyokushin fighters are elite karate fighters.

I asked Saiko Shihan Oyama (9th dan Kyokushinkia/Kancho Oyama Karate) why he was lowering the intensity of the general classes, while maintaining the intensity of fighting class and private training. He stated that in order for his dojo to prosper and survive, he had to cater to a large number of students, many of whom were not interested in full contact fighting . Without these other students, he could not afford to train his top fighters.

On the koryu side, over the last 20 years I have spoken with many koryu practitioners. My experience has been that they do not look down on Mcdojo style of martial arts, but are rather very proud of the quality of their training.

John

Kolschey
4th June 2000, 16:37
I guess it's time for me to throw my hat in.
I train in a Koryu art- Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu under Mark Jones Sensei of Napa, CA. I began training two years ago here in Madison, WI.
I would certainly hate to think that my training makes me snobbish. Rather, I find that the training has the effect of making most of it's practicioners more humble. Part of the reason for this is that the tolerances for error do tend to be lesser than in many of the other arts that I have practiced. When you are practicing Iai-jutsu, a lapse of concentration will result in a visit to the emergency room. Many of the long time students of KSR that I have met have stories and scars from their own blades. Kobudo forms have their own tempering influence. All of the cuts have very specific targets and applications that would result in crippling or lethal injury in a live blade encounter. Even with the wooden weapons, the consequences of an ill controlled strike are quite serious, given that the targets are the same as would be attacked in "real" combat. To train with a serious senior partner will reveal to you a world of vulnerablity. Another critical element is the role of Reishiki, the ettiquette of the school. This involves being very much aware of one's proper handling and care of weapons and how one properly relates to others who are similarly armed. This is something that I have found that martial arts practicioners are not always concious of. The reason why I train in KSR is severalfold. Firstly, I find that it has a particular sort of focused intensity coupled with specific technique. I have also trained in Kendo, and enjoy that art greatly, but find that the mindset does differ. KSR has more of a pragmatic feel to it, as the techniques and footwork are not geared towards a sportive context. Consequently, I find that the practice of KSR helps greatly in my practice of Aikido. It emphasizes precise and grounded footwork, which is a real asset when one is trying to throw a larger partner.(Previously, I had difficulties with hopping and dancing my way through irimi-nage) I also find that the focus from training in the Kobudo partner forms greatly improves my zanshin for armed and unarmed practice. Perhaps one of the greatest benefits of my study, however, is the opportunity to connect to a sense of history. As I see my martial arts practice as a form of ancestor worship, this gives me an insight into some of the realities that my predecessors must have faced in combat of ages past. I certainly don't believe that my practice of a Koryu art makes me any better than other martial artists. My continued practice of Aikido gives me the experience of working with people who have achieved an extraordinary level of skill and character which inspires me in my own endeavors. As we are all working together towards self realisation, the path is a matter of personal preference. The path and it's exploration is it's own best reward.

------------------
Krzysztof M. Mathews
" For I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me"
-Rudyard Kipling

Kit LeBlanc
4th June 2000, 21:42
In my opinion maybe "exclusive" is the better word.

Koryu are taught to smaller groups, so individual instruction is better dispensed. Many koryu teachers have few students. Those few students are tested in terms of character for some time before being taught "the good stuff."

Not to say that some modern budo dojo do not have the same sort of things, but since there are far fewer koryu teachers and practitioners, practice would be more exclusive than elitist.

Since I think most koryu teachers prefer to keep it exclusive, some may see this as elitism when it is really just the teachers preferred way to teach.

Kit LeBlanc

socho
4th June 2000, 22:19
Hello,
If this is Dave Lowry, author, welcome to the forum. I just received one of your books as a present, looking forward to browsing through it.
In any case, I don't think you will get much response in asking for specific examples of elitist behavior or attitude. Let's accept that it exists, and then argue whether it is justifiable or not. I think that is where some of the previous posts (mine included) were going.
Justifiable? No. Given that this is the koryu forum, I don't wish to alienate anyone or talk bad about any art in particular. I am talking about the attitude of the practioner. Pride is ok, elitism, to me, equates to close-mindedness. Not a good way to progress in any art.



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Dave Drawdy

Jeff Cook
4th June 2000, 22:22
I don't believe anyone participating in these discussions is truly an elitist. The koryu instructors I know are certainly not elitists nor exclusivists.

The elitists I have met have been a sad lot; without exception they have had their heads jammed into the sand, and shield their lack of self-esteem behind their rigid interpretations. This is really a shame, as they are good martial artists, and the only thing that keeps them from achieving greatness is themselves.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

5th June 2000, 00:55
It's been my experience that the most elite and snobbish martial arts instructors are those who claim koryu origins but have little or no real koryu experience. Possibly, the so-called new student may have encountered one of these who claimed to be of the koryu school but in fact was not. It seems to me that their attitude of elitism is more of a cover for their questionable credentials. Those who have actually studied koryu generally seem pretty open about it.

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Don Cunningham

TommyK
5th June 2000, 02:18
Greetings to all,

I am honored to reply to a post from Mr. Lowry. I have been a fan of your writings for years.

First off, please understand I am the originator of the thread concerning suppossed elitism of Koyru practitioners. It came about in an after-class discussion with several new students in our school of Korean Karate and Self-Defense.

As we do not practice Koyru arts , I answered their questions on the general topic of Koyru arts. One of their number, made this comment and I did inquire where they received this impression.

The answer was 'around'. On further inquiry this meant various sites on the internet and talking with friends of friends who practice various martial arts in general.

I did not mean to create the impression that I was making this statement, rather I was just curious as to what the E-Budo community, at-large, thought of this statement.

I have the greatest respect for all those who practice any martial art that teaches something useful, especially Koyru arts. In the past I have asked Wayne Muromoto, of 'Furyu' fame, if he could recommend any Koyru systems in and around NYC. As, I would like to sample what these arts are about. Wayne did not know of any Koryu systems in NYC, but now I am happy that this thread allows me to ask you, and any other E-Budo member where a Koyru system exists in the NYC area.

As I close, let me reiterate that I have the greatest respect for Mr. Lowry and the Koryu arts, and wish to share that respect by having someone of your stature reply to all of us on this specific thread.

Thank you,

TommyK

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Tommy K. Militello

Joseph Svinth
5th June 2000, 04:47
It has been my experience that mastering the skill of putting a sword away without cutting one's fingers does not always translate into equal skill at dealing with family or coworkers. Thus it is not impossible that some koryu practitioners are arrogant twits.

It also has been my experience that when one seeks quantifiable stories of rudeness and arrogance, one asks face-to-face, in letters, or in e-mail, rather than on a public forum. So perhaps that is why people have not named names.

But I could be wrong; perhaps koryu masters are truly so much different from the rest of us.

Meanwhile, as long as we are discussing quantification, I am curious to know the source of the datum there are only "a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States." Is there some published roster? If so, where does one obtain a copy?

Personally, though, I'd guess that the number of legitimate practitioners is measured in hundreds rather than tens. Donn Draeger, for example, claimed sixteen students in 1976. Assuming normal class sizes and turnover, that implies dozens of students in that lineage alone. If this is true, then why downplay the actual numbers? Elitism is certainly one explanation that comes to mind.




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Joe
http://ejmas.com

Tetsutaka
5th June 2000, 05:26
Does the phrase "fewer than a hundred or so exponents of legitimate koryu in the United States" not also denote a level of elitism? I think so. I also think it is well deserved and right on the money.

People are confusing "elitist" with "arrogant". The difference is slim, but it is indeed there. The definition I found was:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, ladies and gentlemen, but there is nothing wrong with calling koryu elite ,per se. In fact, koryu [in terms of Japanese MA] is indeed the elite, by definition. Please take a moment to consider this, if you have not already.

The difficulty lies in the "bagage" that comes along with the definition - a pejorative connotation, if you will.

I have personally seen monumental arrogance on the part of certain budoka that do possess koryu scrolls. Part of the arrogance is the mistaken impression that the elite nature inherent in koryu traditions gives him the right to display such unabashed arrogance.

Elite and arrogant - two different things that often go hand-in-hand. That is not the fault of the entity itself [in this case - koryu arts] but in the trappings and wrappings brought on by the person that seeks one and only displays the other.



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Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

John Lindsey
5th June 2000, 07:21
Hi Dave,

Welcome finally to E-Budo http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. It took a year to get you to post... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif.

Over the years, I have come across a few snobby types, but they turned out not to be koryu, even though they claimed they were.

Some might say that the late Donn Draeger was very strong about his views, but he has been gone for awhile now, and I would not say that he was snobby.

Dave, I think you might agree that since the 1970's koryu has had an uphill battle in many ways with the established martial arts community. Maybe the early koryu folks outside of Japan was being defensive against those who were claiming their arts were of no use in the modern world. Some might have seen this as being snobby?

Tetsutaka
5th June 2000, 13:31
So do we agree all that it is no the art per se that creates the arrogance, but the people that are attracted to it that bring it along? So we are talking about the people, not the arts themselves? Needless to say, there is a difference.

In my experience, the vast majority of truly unapologeticly arrogant individuals has consistently come not from koryu arts, but from judo. It seems to me that every opportunity I have taken to talk to one of them [teacher or student], they seem to get in a groove of spouting off like they are the last true samurai of the world. This kind of experience just puts me off.

Then, when I tell them I practice jujutsu, I get this look like "how revoltingly unrefined" from them. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif Now mind you, this has been experience with less than a dozen people over 15 years. But a recent encounter with a local dojo has raised my hackles a bit.

There's a judo/karate dojo here that calls itself American Samurai (http://www.americansamurai.com), that starts with <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>American Samurai is a traditional martial arts training center.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then when you click past their splash page to the dojo page, you see: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We have all the information you need, including downloadable forms, for our upcoming State Qualifier Tournament and Referee Course (May 19-20th, 2000).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ugh! Referees? Tournaments? ARG!

Then you look down the page and see that they teach "Shotokan karate and Kodokan judo". Oh, that explains it. I think.

[b][image from site removed t oprotect the innocent...]


Perhaps it's just me, but I equate "traditional" with at the very least very hard work for not much reward other than a job well done. On a more "cultural" level, I expect traditional to mean "how they do it in Japan", when the word pertains to Japanese martial arts.

Is this traditional? Like I said - Ugh.

Perhaps if my personal experiences would have not induced me to a heightened sensitivity, I might not hold this opinion. In an effort to be fair, I have dedicated myself to meeting as many martial artists in this area as I can, in hopes of some day reporting a change of personal opinion in this regard.

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

Margaret Lo
5th June 2000, 16:54
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
I look around, and most of the McDojo's around here are supposedly koryu.

Margaret, my feeling is that you are over-generalizing.

BTW, Shotokan is not considered a koryu; in fact, many practitioners of the truly ancient Japanese arts do not consider any of the karate styles to be koryu. Also, the Okinawans (the innovators of karate) were quite aghast at what they felt Funakoshi had done by "modernizing" and "japanifying" karate.

They lamented what they perceived to be the decline and bastardization of their art by one of their fellow Okinawans whom they considered to have "sold-out" karate.

Personally, I feel the Okinawans were being too traditionally stiff and resistant to evolution. I think Funakoshi was brilliant, adaptive, and imaginative.

But I do find it interesting to hear you making the same generalizations about "modern" systems when you are a practitioner of a modern system.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff - I am well aware that Shotokan Karate and Karate in general are not Koryu arts. Shotokan karate is less than 100 years old and created in the 20th century out of Okinawan styles.

It is precisely because I am a practitioner of a modern system that I decry its state. I do not believe I am over generalizing because there is such an overabundance of bad technique and poor understanding even within organizations of my acquaintance, which are recognized to be good karate organizations.

Yet in comparison to the general run of commercial clubs, the organizations I have trained with are far and away superior.

My feeling is that the Koryu practitioners are in general fewer in number and have not (yet) experienced the extensive commercialization that karate has suffered. Therefore, there may be a proportionally higher number of good practitioners in the Koryu than in karate.

So in my last post, I stated that Koryu practitioners have reason to look down on some practitioners of modern arts - but whether they actually do so is open to speculation. The Koryu artists of my acquaintance are good people who are too busy with their own work to be so petty.

Really, I define elitism to be an awareness of excellence and a willingness to state what is good vs what is poor technique. I do not see it to be a license to personally snub other martial artists. My only point in favor of elitism among Koryu practitioners is this: if it protects the Koryu arts from the commercialism that happened to karate, then good for them.

Excuse me while I run to class, that sequined gi is hell to put on http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif


-M-




[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

Margaret Lo
5th June 2000, 17:10
Mr. Haynes:
surely it was not necessary to post the picture from the club you castigate, especially since children are depicted.

-M-



[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-05-2000).]

Tetsutaka
5th June 2000, 17:50
You're right, Ms. Lo,

People can see it for themselves. I'll remove the directlink to the image, but the site link will remain for those interested.

..and please, call me Houston. "Mr Haynes" is my dad. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-05-2000).]

Margaret Lo
5th June 2000, 20:55
Will do Houston.

Dave Lowry
5th June 2000, 21:00
Mr. Svinth: My estimate of US koryu practitioners may have been too low. Fine. Quadruple it. Quintuple it. The number would still be so miniscule as to render the possibility our newcomer friend could have drawn his conclusion about koryu based upon firsthand interaction with these individuals most unlikely. (Wouldn’t depend too much on the supposition that Draeger’s “16 students” implies a burgeoning koryu population here, incidentally. A)not all of those students were Americans. B)one of them, one of my teachers, since 1976 has had exactly 2 students, not exactly an exponential explosion of Malthusian proportions.)

My possibly lowball figure of koryu adepts no more suggests elitism than would the simple observation that, say, not many Americans are devoted to the collection of erotic Hummel figurines. Exactly like the koryu, these x-rated cherubs would be exiguous, eccentric, and appealing and available to a limited audience. Mr. LeBlanc has made this point well above, explaining a crucial distinction between elitism and exclusivity.

Mr. Lindsey: I don’t see any evidence that what little koryu is practised in the US has been involved in any battles, especially not battles for recognition. Non-commercial and limited by nature in the way they are taught, the ones I know of go to some lengths to maintain a low profile and protect their privacy. That this site receives regular inquiries about finding these groups would indicate recognition is not among the priorities of koryu dojo in this country.

Koryu do struggle with a problem of perception, which is precisely my point. Frauds have co-opted the image of koryu. They have slapped on a coat of machismo, “Oriental mysticism,” and Clavell-like samurai romanticism. Furnishings are provided with extensive terminology mimicked from the real thing, preposterous mannerisms and etiquette, and lineages ranging from the untraceable to the absurd. These seedy properties are then advertised through an appeal to snobbery and elitism, to those prospective tenants most susceptible to the come-on: wanna-be “Anjin-san,” martially-inclined Japanophiles, and those pathetic souls who fantasize participation in the rare and unusual, whether it be Tibetan Buddhism or koryu, will somehow confer on them a mantle of the special and unique.

I can readily believe ersatz koryu incorporate elitism. It’s probably an important part of their allure. But that is a very different proposition from the one that seems to be accepted by many e-budo members without any support of evidence; that snobbery is inherent in koryu mentalities or is a common trait of its practitioners.

(As for my not posting previously, Mr. Lindsey; like the kid everyone considered mute until he finally complained about the eggs at breakfast one morning, up until now everything’s been just fine.)

Tetsutaka
5th June 2000, 22:08
Good points all, Mr Lowry.

BTW, I think that was Beethoven who supposed to have been mute until he was four or so... anohter urban legend?

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

DJM
6th June 2000, 00:31
Hi..
I'd like to say a couple things - firstly a big welcome to Dave, of who's work I am a very great admirer (more so considering Moving Toward Stillness inspired me to return to Aikido), even if it did take some burnt eggs to prompt him to make an appearance. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif
Secondly, and I'll apologise if I sound like I'm preaching, but I think that many of the problems that have been raised above are a result of predjudice (in the sense of pre-judging) and stereotyping.
Not, I hasten to add, necessarily conscious choices. Indeed, they are a weakness that I suspect we all succumb to, to greater or lesser degrees.
After all, what are the issues raised in the above discussion? That the koryu arts foster elitism, or arrogance? That there are so few exponents that we cannot make an accurate judgement?
I'd like to suggest that both of the above points are equally worthless http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif, that we should only ever judge people - should we feel the compulsion to do even that - as individuals. Granted that individuals may often share common traits when in the same vicinity (i.e. in the same dojo, or studying the same style) but I feel it's a mistake - even if a common one (and one which I commit myself, all too regularly) - to attempt any form of generalisation on people.
If I may make the analogy, it's very much like walking through a forest, assuming all the trees are the same. It makes the trip a lot less interesting...
*dismounts soapbox*
http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif
Peace,
David

------------------
Poetry of Birds,
A Thousand Voice Melody,
Dancing on the Waves
-- David Marshall

Jeff Cook
6th June 2000, 01:57
Dave, thanks for sharing your perspective.

Again, the few practitioners of authentic koryu I have met have been neither elitist (implying superiority) nor exclusive (implying disdain towards any other approach or concept).

As you succinctly stated, it seems that the only folks who fit that bill are the insecure ones that try to claim a ridiculous/unbelievable lineage to an obscure koryu past.

I have studied ancient, classical, modern, and combative (modern military) arts, and I can say without exception that most of these troubled individuals fell into one of two categories: classical arts and modern military combative arts.

The funny thing is, the new western student, for the most part, could really care less about the history/lineage of an art (when starting out). They come to a class with specific needs/desires in mind, and they want to know if those needs can be met. I still cannot understand why anyone would feel the need to inflate their history and/or their art's history.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Jeff Cook
6th June 2000, 02:11
Thanks, Margaret. I do want to publicly state something which I think you already know: I respect you greatly, and I know you are not a snob! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior.

I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]

Rennis
6th June 2000, 06:32
For what the opinions of a newbie to koryu are worth, from my point of view , I can see a couple of sources for the "Koryu Snob". One is the mainstream martial arts media, where a number of people have suddenly become "experts" in koryu (the frauds Mr Lowry and others have refered to) and are spreading their misconceptions around to the general martial arts public, who probably don't care one way or the other. The general reader probably has just seen certain viewpoints expressed a number of times and are reacting to them through how they view martial arts (and I suspect the average reader sees no reason to move to Japan just to train in some weird art when some guy is claiming to teach it down the street). As Mr. Lowry points out, few people have had first hand contact, but everyone seems to be writing about it (at least they were a few years ago, I haven't even seen an issue of Black Belt, etc in two years), thus it is no surprise that views on koryu have become all twisted.

I think the other source is the students who want to study some form of koryu and can't. These people have probably been influenced by the works of some of the various wannabe koryu "masters". Also alot of these people may be the same people who dojo hop to whatever various art is popular at the time. Since they usually can just hit the newest "dojo" and train right away, they probably don't like reading things like Diane Skoss' "If You Want Koryu, Come to Japan" article. How can you readily write off the opinion of someone who is readily qualified to know.... "Ahh Karate and Aikido works here, so there's no reason Koryu won't. They are just snobs cause they were lucky and trained in Japan for a long time.". I know when I personally first read that article, I was torn between the fact that I knew she was right and the fact that it was still something I didn't really want to hear, as at the time I had no means of getting over here. In my case it was a good motivator to get off my butt and get over here, but other people may just ignore what they don't want to hear and dismiss it with "snobbery" type comments.

Personally, I'm not sure if there is really a way to really stop the "snob" comments. Again, using my very minimal personal experience, before I came here, I had read all the right koryu related stuff, I had studied Japanese history, culture and some langauge. I'd even visited Japan briefly. I thought I had a good idea what I was in for, but it ended up being very different. Not wrong, just different. Its like the difference between living in Japan and just seeing a 30 minute tv program on Japanese culture. Sure the information is right, but how you understand it is completely different when you are in the middle of it, rather than the comfort of your living room. Now I readily agree that the best way to learn koryu is to come over here, and, no surprise, I've been called a snob for it. Oh well, off to the dojo....

Rennis Buchner

[This message has been edited by Rennis (edited 06-06-2000).]

hyaku
6th June 2000, 10:40
I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
.................................

Hyakutake

MarkF
6th June 2000, 10:43
I think I shall back my elitist, judoka backside outta here!

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

hyaku
6th June 2000, 12:22
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku:
[B]I would just like to say that the information available in Engish about Koryu is just the tip of the iceberg.

Nothing would please me more than to see more Westerners coming to Japan to learn Japanese and study these arts. Japanese people are so obsessed with America (they don't know any other country exists outside Japan) that few people are interested in promulgating it.

I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest.

Also even within Koryu there exists this unfortunate human frailty of too many people wanting to be a chief instead of an indian, which produces spits within groups and ryu.

I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!
.................................

Hyakutake http://www2.saganet.ne.jp/sword

Tosa Eishin updated June 1st. Start of 35 pages of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Ipponme-Seiza Nobu

Rennis
6th June 2000, 13:56
Hyaku said
"I can assure readers and contributors to e-budo that sadly the roots of the arts are gradually dissapearing as the older teachers pass on. In future all we will be left with is a sportlike art unless more people take more of an interest."

Now I don't know jack about koryu compared to people like Hyaku (I don't really know jack about koryu at all really), but even I have come face to face with this myself when Peter Boylan and I stumbled across an Iai ryuha (or maybe remains of a ryuha would be more correct) in Shiga last year. All that was left were the techniques and only 2 people knew them. It wasn't small because of snobbery (heck they were more than happy to show us the techniques and tell us what they knew), it was small because no one has any interest or bothered to ask about it. Even the branch of Hoki ryu I am in only has about 5 people currently involved and I've only even met 2 of them. If elite involves having very few members, then alot of koryu are elite by default simply due to lack of interest. One of my favorite quotes in this area involves a discussion between my jo sensei and one of my sempai (who has been doing iai for years and seems pretty knowledgable about Budo). Sensei, "OK, next year I think its time we start working on some of the koryu Jo stuff". Sempai, with look of shock and panic on his face, "You mean there's koryu too?!?!".


"I say don't complain about snobbery. Get over here. practice and help!"

Amen

Rennis Buchner

Margaret Lo
6th June 2000, 16:30
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:

Elitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group...to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility.

I can't help but think that we are slapping the "elite" label on a group that really does not desire the label.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[This message has been edited by Jeff Cook (edited 06-05-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I can agree with you whole heartedly. I guess the real problem is semantics. Setting high standards should not by itself stick anyone with the label of being "elitist" with all the arrogance that it connotes.

Let's turn this question around a bit - assuming that a koryu artist of your acquaintance is something of a snob, would you still go to learn something from him or her?

BTW - I am a snob.... a food snob though I do sink to eat the occasional McBurger. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

-M-

Tetsutaka
6th June 2000, 17:17
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Cook:
snipElitism by definition implies superiority and favoritism towards the superior group. I agree with you that there are definitely superior groups of martial artists ("superior" in this case could be defined any number of ways, but we will save that fodder for another topic!).

But to foster a feeling of elitism is to foster a trait that we all strive to diminish: that all-important attitude of mind called humility. A truly humble person will feel only pity towards the misguided; they will not feel superior. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff,

Great post. I couldn't agree with you more. That is why I stated in another thread that there is a difference between an elite organization, and the arrogance of any membership. I think there is also a problem with the term "elitism".

There is definitely a pejorative connotation in "elitism" that I think in some cases is well-deserved. To state that "koryu arts are an elite form of martial arts" is one thing. [I would dare say it is a dimple statement of fact.] To say that their constituency are by and large "elitist" is another. The connotation is completely different. Go look it up in the dictionary (http://www.m-w.com) and see exactly what I mean.

BTW, the same applies to any organization, be it koryu or gendai -- karate, judo, aikido, jujutsu, et al - ad infinitum - ad nauseum...

"Elitism" is proffered by "elitists". Take your pick as to who is who and what is what...



------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

BrianV
6th June 2000, 19:46
Margaret,
Your question about whether I would go to learn under an elitist snob, Koryu or not, is an interesting one.
I believe in the pursuit of excellence, physical, mental and spiritual. I have never achieved it in any of the three. No one I have met so far has achieved it.
For myself, a technique is only a technique, known by myself or not. It is the fostering spirit of the person that interests me.
If someone is so caught up with themelves or their traditions, or their lineage that they look down upon others without endeavoring to educate themselves fully in regards to the other style or persons strengths, then this person is not allowing themselves the opportunity to grow and develop.
This is not someone who, in all probability, I would have great success developing characer or spirituality with.
I will wait and learn the same technique or concepts with someone who is more open and humble.
It is enough of a blight on the arts in general that we have elitists who, in pursuit of their own perfection, disregard or, even worse, attempt to discredit others of alternative beliefs or practices.
I have always worked under the direction of a simple line, "every peson is my better, that I may learn from them". This tenet has served me well in the past and has helped me to progress.
I have a question for you, if some of the older Masters were still around, (Kano, Ueshiba, Funakoshi, etc...) would they turn their backs on the less traditional arts, or would they be learning combat handgun techniques along with Kali and Pentjak Silat?

Respectfully submitted,


[This message has been edited by BrianV (edited 06-06-2000).]

Margaret Lo
6th June 2000, 19:54
Brian - I feel that without a doubt, any of the old guys, Mr. Kano, Mr. Funakoshi would never have left their teacher's work behind even if they parted from their teachers.

If however, their teachers studied silat etc... then they would have trained and taught silat. They are Japanese after all.

-M-

Joseph Svinth
7th June 2000, 03:58
When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.

As for arrogance, well, if you can walk the talk, then you're stating fact, not brag. But if you can't, then no matter how impressive the toilet paper on your walls, you're still a self-inflated balloon.

As for the older masters you mention, my guess is that Kano would have been organizing seminars for the Kenshusei while the other two gentlemen would have been ignoring outside developments. Why? Well, that's what they did when they were alive, so I can't imagine they'd do things much differently if reincarnated.

Kit LeBlanc
7th June 2000, 08:28
Joe,

I like that. But what if you want to break heads, learn history, and develop your character?

I think the best combine these attributes.

Kit

Joseph Svinth
7th June 2000, 09:31
Kit --

The answer to that one is simple: Train with three different people.

This process is cheaper, faster, more efficient, and most germane to this discussion, more Japanese. (Think Meiji -- the Army learned from the French and Prussians, the Navy learned from the British, and the railroaders learned from J.J. Hill of the Great Northern.)

------------------
Joe
http://ejmas.com

MarkF
7th June 2000, 09:43
Kit,
To do it appropriately, you would have to reverse the order in your post. One may be better at breaking heads if he developed his character, learned his history (or herstory), and then broke the appropriote heads. Hell, there are some world leaders who did just that.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

Kit LeBlanc
7th June 2000, 20:06
Mark,

Mark, to me, what you just described is the essence of Budo.

Kit

Tetsutaka
7th June 2000, 20:24
Wow, erudite and macho all at the same time...

I think I'm in love.

Mark, please don't take that personally, it's the concept I'm talking about... http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

------------------
Houston Haynes (http://home.nc.rr.com/houstonandjulie)
"You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you."

[This message has been edited by Tetsutaka (edited 06-07-2000).]

MarkF
8th June 2000, 10:27
I was going to stay out of this completely, and indeed, I did say so on my rather short previous post, but this discussion concerns something, not dying, but which is dead. It Doesn't exist except in the minds fo those who can "prove" his/her "koryu art" exists. My experience with the so-called classics is limited, but I was involved long enough to know a snob when I see one. They even post here, and then denigrate their own students for "giving away the secret" of the art, the "ura." They make unconscionable demands on these students, but partake in the very thing they see as objectionable. Most here who were around during this subject matter in the Aikijj threads know of which I speak. When the "jig is up," they suddenly agree with your assessments and then disappear....only to return everytime someone rides the soapbox again. But I am not going to give examples because others, including Mr. PJ Popie have made this patently clear. On a sidenote, another who fits, at least in the elitest snobbery department is Mr. Houston Haynes. In one short phrase, he paints a picture of all judoka as snobs. I thought this thread was to be based on koryu or tradional arts. Oh, I forgot, judo is a combative "sport" and could not possibly be taken seriously here. Well, excuuuuse me. More than thirty-seven years at doing something is not to be taken seriously because it is not koryu. Traditional? Whatever. What is the difference? And according to Houston, judoka are snobs. Every last one of us, and that is based on conversation with judoka only known to Mr. Haynes, and with proof of it from a website. Well, we all know that a website is all the proof you need of something to make it true. My fault. I thought this thread was supposed to be a discussion, not attacks on a group based on the meanderings of one who "knows."

The fact is that koryu is dead and has been for a long time. Even people who are honest enough to admit it are not allowed this priviledge of taking a rest on all the rhetoric, but instead, is pushed into a position of "playing along" so one's students are happy, and may give the ultimate salute to newer arts which are essentially older ryu, but without the the seething hatred for the public disemmination of "something for everyone." Sure, I will go so far to say that even in what I do, the snobs outnumber the true "artist" three to one, four to one. Dave Lowry gives even that concerning the numbers of koryu students, something which said students utilize as advertising what they do by advertising that we don't advertise and thus do not want any students. Right. So I would think, if one is to believe this, that koryu "masters" self-publish through vanity press and give away their words, but only to the consumer of koryu arts. It seems I recall an AJJ master who has published a book, not for the income, but so that the "secrets" be known to a wider audience, but the ura and hiden mokuroku known to only the "better quality" of students. I've also got a bridge for sale.

So what is the truth? Traditional/classcal bugei (Mr. Lowry's word) have been dying out since they first appeared, and continue to do so, but with the names changed to protect the innocent. The lineage thing is such a monumental lie that every one should give it a chuckle every time he/she steps onto a mat. Just recently I came upon a website which made the claim that the 'te arts, namely karate (Okinawan), was developed in 1500 and then proceeded to name names. Well, the term judo first appeared in the eighteenth century, and this is not in dispute, so why shouldn't judo be lumped in with everything else NOT "modern?" Most koryu trace lineage back at least that far, with "proof" in writing because somebody's son said as much. Well, if that is the measuring stick, then we must also believe that the entire Takeda clan which, on some websites, is "traced" back 1000 years, and that the Takedas could walk through walls. Yep. Says so right here in the scrolls.

Now for the apology for what I have just written. I have no ill will toward anyone who claims anytning, just those whose noses are above the acrid odor of his own stink. This seems to be a constant. I apologize to all those (and there are many) who simply go on and practice the Japanese fighting arts (combative sports as well) with the only intention being to learn, study, teach, or write about it. I have met writers who are so honest that it surely is hurting sales of their work. There are teachers who do not care what others, like myself think, and will ignore this rant, and those of others. I mean no harm to anyone, I am just like the minority of players in this game who seek the truth. No doubt that I will be proven wrong, as Thomas Jefferson said when he made his assessment of his slaves. It seems today, it is not all that different in the JMA. I say give your facts, say from where they come, and then give your opinion on why they are or are not true. We go to school, read and study history books, which is nothing more than cultivated opinion, and we are told to accept it as gospel. It seems History 101 has not changed much.



------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

MarkF
8th June 2000, 10:36
Houston,
I didn't take anything here seriously. If you meant the "joke" I was making, believe me it was only a feeble attempt at humor. Now that I read it, it not only is about budo, but about conquering as well. C'est le guerre. Pardon my french, really. This is a phrase in which I really have never taken note to spell correctly http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

MarkF
8th June 2000, 10:45
A post script to Houston Haynes. Please do not take the above post seriously. I was only responding to the course of this thread, and the acute generalizations which appear seemingly purposeful, but are not. I didn't take your post concerning the one so-called judo website seriously. It was only an excuse to write an opinion, and said opinion was not about you personally.

Best Regards,

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

TommyK
10th June 2000, 05:33
Thanks to all who responded to my question!

I'm sorry if the topic upset some, but I am happy that the question got Mr. Lowry to enter the fray. I enjoy his writtings and I hope he shares more with us on E-Budo.

Regards,
TommyK

------------------
Tommy K. Militello

Doug Daulton
13th June 2000, 05:48
Let me suggest that the koryu are "elusive" rather than "elitist" or "exclusive". I think this terms suits both the koryu schools and perhaps their teachers/exponents.

Are the Koryu dying? Well, one might think so. Much like European fencing or Viking axework, there is not much call for these skills in the modern era, and therefore not much interest in learning them.

As a result, the arts themselves are somewhat elusive because instruction of any kind, much less quality instruction, is so very difficult to find. Once found, legitimate koryu teachers/exponents are generally very particular about who they bring into the fold.

In my experience (primarily with Shinto Muso-ryu Jo), koryu exponents view their study and practice as stewardship of a great cultural asset which happens to be a martial art. As a result they take their practice and the choice of potential students/training partners/successors very seriously. This doesn't mean they are snooty or demeaning.

Again in my experience, seasoned koryu practitioners are very approachable and accessible to folks who respect their arts and take them seriously. Do they have strong opinions about people who, without benefit of genuine experience, prattle on about koryu ... when perhaps these people should just keep their mouths closed? Sure, wouldn't you if people were belittling something you treasured?

To put it another way ... what if, instead of martial artists, we were discussing the rare folks who carry on traditions like the indigo-dyeing of Japan, the dulcimer music of Appalachia or the batik painting of India? If one were to seek these folks out and ask to learn their craft, they would almost certainly be met with the reserved caution we often see in koryu exponents and mistake for elitism. The only difference is, I doubt we'd consider them elitist.

Instead, we probably consider them artisans, committed to perfecting their craft and finding the right people to whom they might pass on the cultural asset with which they were entrusted.

------------------
Doug Daulton

[This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-12-2000).]

Chuck Clark
13th June 2000, 07:55
Doug,

Good post. I have been trying to think of a way to put the difference between snobbery and elitism and just plain being "picky" about who we share with. You hit it right on the head of the ol nail.

Looking forward to JOhio! See you soon.



------------------
Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
http://www.jiyushinkai.org

Doug Daulton
13th June 2000, 16:09
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph Svinth:
When you want to learn to break heads, you don't go to college professors, you go to head-breakers. When you want to learn history and tradition, you don't go to a dance studio, you go to a college. And when you want to talk about character-development, you don't go to head-breakers, you go to a seminary or a philosophy class.

Where you go wrong is when you go to professors to learn to break heads, or head-breakers to learn situational ethics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point Mr. Svinth.

It is the rare teacher who can legitimately provide instruction in two of these three key areas of study (head-breaking/combat, history/tradition or character development). And, the legitimate teacher of all three is the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack.

The myth of "one teacher for life" is sown and grown by martial arts cinema. It makes for high drama (or at least creates a compelling reason for the fight scenes) when the student is "orphaned" by the death of his teacher. Now rudderless, the student lashes out in "righteous fury". If the now-dead teacher was a master of all three areas and an effective teacher to boot, would his student, now without benefit of his guidance, go on a vengeful killing spree?

There is an old saying ... "a parent's job is to make themselves obsolete ... so the child can stand on it's own." This doesn't mean that the child will ultimately lose love or respect for their parents. Indeed, the mature child will see that his parents are not god-like ... rather they are full of human weakness and frailty.

However, now mature and independent, the child affectionately and respectfully seeks his parents counsel on those issues in which he knows them to "expert" ... despite their weaknesses in other areas. Over time, the mature child also comes to further love and respect thier parents for thier dedication to the child's instruction and the sacrifices they made on his/her behalf.

I think this applies to teachers as well. I've found that the best teachers are the one's who know what they can teach and what they can't. Where they are weak, they selflessly direct their students to better resources.

Even were someone fortunate enough to find a genuine and skilled teacher of two or three of the key areas outlined above, there comes a point where all students must make the learning their own. At the risk of sounding esoteric, they must come to know, from their own experience, the real "truths" of the teaching. Else, the student simply parrots the teacher and never develops any real substance.

To bring the topic full circle .... in koryu bujutsu, gendai budo or life in general, I think most people experience the distasteful "elitism" described here when the long-time parrot strikes out on his/her own and suddenly realizes that they never really "got it". Rather than admitting their ignorance, seeking new teachers and redoubling their efforts to genuinely learn ... these parrots hide behind a shield of elitism.

It is in these circumstances that we see martial arts deteriorate into the "mystical world of bulls**t" as one former teacher liked to call it.

Doug Daulton
Reformed Parrot (I hope)




[This message has been edited by Doug Daulton (edited 06-13-2000).]

Aaron L. Seay
14th June 2000, 00:58
From Merriam-Webster

ELITE

1 a: the choice part : CREAM
b the best of a class
c the socially superior part of society
d a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence

SNOB

3 a : one who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those regarded as inferior
b : one who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste


Well, if the elite are superior, and the snobs have an offensive air of superiority, then it would certainly be hard to separate the two. I have to agree with Mark F. on this one...those who remember all of the discussions on the old AJJ threads will recall that certain Koryu practicioners who regularly posted definately considered themselves to be elite (and were considered by the rest of us to be snobs) if for no other reason than they considered all the other arts to be inferior to theirs. A lot of people here ended up being offended by their attitudes!

The question is, just because they consider themselves to be elite, does that necessarily make it so? The answer to that is, it does if they can manage to convince a large segment of the population that it's true. There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu. "You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else. We've also all heard the stories of the ukes flopping like fish at the touch of a magical finger. Either of these extremes may serve to classify them as a subculture whose true nature is not fully understood by those not in that subculture. But does that make them Superior (hence, elite)? I don't think so. I know they consider themselves to be "closer to the source" and "less diluted" than the more contemporary, popular, or Gendai arts. And maybe they are. But to me, a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics). To that end, I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.

------------------
Aaron L. Seay

[This message has been edited by Aaron L. Seay (edited 06-13-2000).]

Earl Hartman
14th June 2000, 02:04
This is absurd. If we accept that:

A) koryu are Japanese martial systems established prior to the beginning of the Meiji restoration (the most common working definition, it seems),

and

B) These systems have recognized and identifiable lineages and methods of transmission that can be documented,

then true practitioners of these arts can be easily identified. All true koryu practitoners I know never hesitate to give their credentials to anyone who might RESPECTFULLY ask for them.

People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance.

I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge. Before one laughs up their sleeves at what appear at first glance to be ridiculous postures and movements it is incumbent on one to research why these things are done as opposed to saying "That looks really stupid. They obviously don't know what they're doing." How in the Sam Hill do you know? Have you talked to anyone in the ryu about why they do things that way?

As far as going to Japan is concerned, one does not have to go to Japan to learn how to kick ass, obviously. You can learn that by hanging out at a local bar. To learn koryu however, one must either go to Japan or train with someone who has. And one has to have a little respect for what one ostensibly wants to practice.

Earl Hartman

Nathan Scott
14th June 2000, 02:52
It is strange to hear people who have not trained koryu in Japan state that they don't think it is necessary! What is this opinion based off of? What you've read, heard and assumed from your own experiences?

I don't study koryu formally, so I'm not any help in this regard. But I would tend to give those that have been there and make these claims the benefit of the doubt, personally. Many non-Japanese Koryu Budoka I've talked to have been very sincere in expressing their experiences to me.

FWIW, I've also picked up what felt like snobbish overtones (which could be mistaken for strong opinions) from some things I've read over the years regarding koryu, but I've never heard any of them critisize (inaccurately) modern arts and I've *never* picked it up from Japanese koryu Budoka - only non-Japanese.

Anyway, I've been through this kind of thing with people that argue that they don't feel that tameshigiri is necessary for swordsmanship when they themselves have little to no experience in it. How can they *know* what there is to gain from the experience?

My point is, I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan.

There is nothing wrong with not having an opinion, for those of us that don't have direct experience in something.

Regards,

------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

14th June 2000, 06:21
Nathan, Earl, guys, gals

I really hate to get into this one because it 's so easy to misunderstand peoples positions here. I am convinced that all of you actually agree on most points but it is in the fine interpretation of details that you don't see eye to eye. However,

Nathan, you stated:

"I'd like to hear from someone who has lived in Japan for a few years studying koryu who feels that it was not necessary to learn and understand the tradition. So far, everyone who has stated this has not been through this themselves, and I suspect that there is a reason why nobody with this kind of experience is popping on the list supporting an opposing view to training koryu in Japan."

How about this from Takamura Yukiyoshi's interview in Aikido Journal #117

"Another common misconception is that one must go to Japan to get “real” Japanese martial arts training! I find this a very strange idea. What does the dirt under the floor have to do with the quality of training in a martial arts dojo these days? Some individuals who spend time training in Japan reinforce this idea with fanciful magazine articles and story books on mysterious secrets to be found there. Others make interesting claims that only by immersing oneself in the culture that bore the art originally can one truly understand its essence or spirit. These individuals are welcome to their opinions, but I must disagree with them. I was born in Japan, raised in the pre-World War II culture of Japan, in a family linked for generations to many martial arts. I have since lived many years in Europe, America and back in Japan. I believe some of these Japanophiles are honest and well-meaning martial arts practitioners drawn to the romantic image they have of Japan and its martial traditions. But others I think are Nippon snobs. They believe by making the admittedly great sacrifice of moving to Japan and surviving the difficulties associated with training there, that they are superior students who have received superior training compared to their friends who stay and train in budo or bujutsu outside Japan. If their training is superior, it is the sensei who is superior, not the dirt under the dojo floor. Many superior sensei exist outside Japan today and many inferior sensei exist inside Japan as well.

Training in Japan does not make up for a bad teacher. Train with a superior teacher abroad. Why go to Japan to train with an inferior teacher? Also, to imagine that the post-World War II modern Japan of today bears any significant cultural resemblence to that of feudal era Japan requires one to ignore some most obvious facts. This is especially true if you are training in a traditional bujutsu or koryu. Using the rationale of cultural relevance just makes no sense to me. I have seen incredible changes in the culture of Japan in my lifetime. Feudal Japan of old died long ago. The culture of the classical martial traditions was tied so directly to the feudal era that the end of this era also brought the end of the culture that bore the classical arts. That is just a fact of history. " - Yukiyoshi Takamura

I interpreted that as one of the points Mr Seay was trying to make:

And Earl stated:

"People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. Koryu may or may not have any practical martial application to the present day. Indeed, in their physical manifestations and the weapons they use, koryu are obviously archaic. If one wants to learn how to kill someone on the street, learn assasination or night warfare techniques, or beat up someone in a bar, one would be better served joining an elite commando unit or hanging out with bikers, not learning how to use a sword.
However, if one wants to do one's best to try to understand, as well as is possible nowadays, the culture and mindset of the bushi by practicing the arts they created, in the way the inheritors of the tradition have determined that they must be practiced, one must practice koryu, regardless of what practical value it might or might not appear to have at first glance."

Earl, My problem with this statement is that you are putting words into Mr Seay's mouth. He did not say that koryu had to be practical in modern application. How about interpreting his words as meaning "still practical in ancient application?"

Read his words again:

"Others have previously posted that much of Koryu has degenerated into Kubuki-like movements with much of the practical aspects lost; something being studied for historical reasons if for nothing else."

This refers to something actually being lost, not just being archaic. Thats different. Support for this position comes again from the interview with Takamura Sensei in his interview with Stan Pranin in Aikido Journal.

Takamura Sensei stated:

"Many classical martial traditions in Japan are now just pretty dancing. It is so sad."

and:

They cling only to antiquated forms and, in this process, often neglect the concepts which form a particular tradition’s core. Some people wish to preserve the arts exactly as they were in olden times. This is commendable, but usually folly. With very fews exceptions, no existing classical school reflects even a fraction of the art’s technical heritage as practiced in times past."

Remember that these words are from a well respected Japanese sensei who began study of several koryu in Japan before WW2.

Earl, You also stated:

"I simply do not understand why people like Mr. Seay, who seems to have no understanding of Japan or koryu at all, are constantly belittling something of which they obviously have no first-hand knowledge."


BTW. Aaron Seay is a longtime student of Takamura Sensei and therfore does know something of which he speaks, although I dont believe he has ever proclaimed himself an expert.

Toby Threadgill / U.S. Kaicho
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

Aaron L. Seay
14th June 2000, 06:37
Margaret:

I have to apologize for my poor writing skills...it's true that the people I mentioned by name (Lowry, Skoss) do write of their experiences and beliefs that Koryu is special; but I have NOT detected any attitude of snobbery or anything like that from any of them; on the contrary, I have nothing but respect for their works and their writings. I was only trying to make the point that what they do serves to further the idea of Koryu being an elite class of M.A. I think this all started with the question of, where do people get this idea? And I think this is one of the answers.

Now, the people I was referring to who WERE acting snobby are the ones we all had the big discussions with on the old AJJ BB, and I won't mention their names, but it was a lot of "If it ain't our aiki, it ain't real aiki" kind of stuff. That's what served to hack a lot of people off.

Also, I liked your counter to the "Shakespear" argument. Interesting point.

One last thing: Earl wrote

"People are constantly making the mistake that koryu=ass kicking ability and that the more ass one can kick the more koryu one is. Mr. Seay's post is just the latest example of this ignorance. One has nothing to do with the other. "

I don't see where I made that mistake. What I said was:

"a measure of superiority would be directly linked to a measure of the combat-effectiveness it is promoting, in whatever arena that may be (boxing in the ring, jujutsu on the street, judo in the Olympics)"

So, for Koryu the arena would be an Ancient Japanese Battlefield, right? I wouldn't ask that a Koryu be "kick-ass" in a street fight, because that's not what it's promoting, is it? Try not to be offended, earl, I'm not "putting down" koryu; I just don't think that it's any more special than any other martial art form (McDojo's notwithstanding, of course)



------------------
Aaron L. Seay

Margaret Lo
14th June 2000, 16:13
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:

There are many established and well respected writers (Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, etc) who study Koryu, and actively promote the idea that what they do is special somehow, or superior to that which is not Koryu.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I strongly disagree with your statement. These koryu practitioners whom you mention do indeed promote the idea that the Koryu arts are special.

But it is illogical for anyone to conclude that they would therefore denigrate the modern arts to indulge in some superficial sense of superiority and self-satisfaction.

This is grossly UNFAIR, and highly inaccurate.

In fact, if you have read Mr. Lowry's articles about karate in Black Belt magazine, you might notice that he treats a very modern art with care and good thinking. Nothing in the works of these writers suggests to me that they run around putting anyone else down. They have instead demonstrated a great deal of restraint and circumspection in responding, or rather refraining from responding, to the attacks occurring right here on this board.

Also, it is impossible for any discussion to go forward without an agreed standard as to what Koryu is and what it is not. That discussion cannot take place if everyone has already concluded that they will not listen to certain people they consider "snobs", yet who are also agreed to be highly knowledgable. Who then has their minds closed to new imput?

Finally, I think it is not the superiority complex of the koryu practitioners that is at issue but the inferiority complex of certain other practitioners.

-Margaret Lo-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

Margaret Lo
14th June 2000, 16:29
Moreover:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay:
"You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan". That's like saying you can't study Shakespeare unless you go to England. Sorry, I don't buy it.....


[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shakespeare analogy is interesting. One can say that one need not go to England to study Shakespeare, but most can agree that one does need to learn English.

If I may presume, I think koryu practitioners might take the position that the language of their art is now taught only by certain teachers in Japan and a tiny minority of their students outside of Japan.

So those who have not learned that "language" are not practicing a koryu art, though the things that these other practitioners do may have intrinsic value. Contrast Arthur Miller with the bard.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I don't believe that any one art or even one category of arts can be singled out as being "superior" to all others; just different within their scope.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is already the position of certain koryu practitioners I respect.

Please recall that an art that is "different" may also be described as "special" and people should not attach connotations that its practitioners are snobs.

-M-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-14-2000).]

Margaret Lo
14th June 2000, 19:38
Aaron - thank you for your clarification. I do agree that hearty arguments are welcome or else why post?

-M-

Diane Skoss
14th June 2000, 20:07
Hey Toby (and all you other lads and lassies),

Just one comment on your teacher's position. I agree with parts of it--for one thing, I certainly wouldn't consider training in Japan with a "lesser" sort of teacher. However, for many, if not most, koryu, the truly superior (i.e. skilled and knowledgeable, and able to transmit) teachers are in Japan.

Okay, so it is two comments. Your teacher is Japanese. There are things that he knows, lives, and breathes that are different from what you and I know/have been brought up to--not better, just different, and more importantly, Takamura Sensei's upbringing is more relevant to the study of koryu. Japanese culture has indeed changed significantly from the days of the bushi, but the culture that exists today still has many features in it that are tied to the feudal era, and it is much more similar to the culture that spawned the koryu than the Western one I grew up in! The koryu are Japanese social entities--you simply can't do them, in my opinion, without having a clue as to how Japanese society works. And I truly believe that the way to do that is to spend some time in it (I mean would you read a book to learn a martial art? No, you go to the dojo and train).

I, like Nathan, would love to hear from anyone who has spent several years training in Japan in a koryu--who is NOT Japanese, nay, let's be more precise, a Westerner--and does not believe that training in Japan is a necessity at some stage.

Also, for the record, I do believe that the koryu are excellent methods of training. For me, they are the bees knees. But I also train in several modern arts, which I adore, and ride dressage (okay, so that's a bit of an exaggeration--I'm learning to ride with the aim of eventually learning dressage). No one of these arts are superior--you get what you put into them, as long as you've sought and found the right teacher--wherever he or she may be.



------------------
Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

Earl Hartman
14th June 2000, 21:11
I apologize if I flew off the handle, but the attitude that I thought I detected behind Mr. Seay's comments touched a raw nerve, as his comments seemed to be directed at some people I know personally.

I first started studying kendo more than 30 years ago. Since then, I spent 11 years living in Japan studying various arts, some gendai (kendo and kyudo) and some koryu (Nagao Ryu Taijutsu and MJER Iai Heiho). Over the years, I have gravitated more towards koryu and have recently (within the last 5 years) taken up SMR jo and even more recently (within the last year) started studying Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Hyoho. I have also recently begun training in tradtitional kyudo of the Heki To Ryu. I claim no great skill in any of the arts I practice. I just give this as background information.

However, I can state without reservation and based on personal experience that the level of the MA that I experienced in Japan is far higher than what I have experienced here in the US, especially in kendo and kyudo. I can also say, and in this I agree with Diane wholeheartedly, that an understanding of Japanese culture has been vital to my understanding of martial arts. If that makes me the kind on Japanophile snob that Takemura sensei describes, then I must aopolgize in advance.

Of course, what Takemura Sensei says about superior vs. inferior teachers, the changes in Japanese culture, etc., is certainly true. Only a fool would say that a teacher must be Japanese to be any good and that there is no good bugei outside of Japan, and there are plenty of degenerate koryu to be found in Japan, I am sure. Even I have seen incredible changes in Japan over the years which undoubtedly pale in comparison with what Takemura Sensei has seen. (And if you think that I think Japan has changed, you should hear what my wife has to say about it every time she goes back home to visit: "#@!!& kids these days, the whole country is going to hell in a handbasket...").

It is of course entirely possible that one may be lucky enough to find a highly qualified teacher of traditional Japanese bugei outside of Japan. I wish nothing but success to those who have been lucky enough to do so. Also, not all of the charlatans and frauds in this country are Americans. There are plenty of Japanese frauds here too.
However, the law of averages would dictate that the majority of skilled traditional teachers are still to be found in Japan, the country where these arts originated.

For instance, the highest ranked kyudo practitoner in this country is a Renshi 6th dan. He is a highly skilled practitoner and a personal friend of mine, and he probably knows more about traditional kyudo than anyone in the US. I have nothing but respect for him and all he has done to help introduce traditional kyudo to the West. However, in Japan, he is only a Renshi 6th dan, and I mean no disprespect by this at all. Without putting too fine a point on it, Japan is lousy with Renshi 6th dans, as rare as they may be here. For a central Renshi test in Japan, more than 300 candidates regularly show up for a single test. We are lucky if there is even 1/3 of that number of people training in kyudo, at any level, in the entire continental US.

The same thing is true in kendo. I trained with the riot squad cops in Japan for a year and a half (when I was a lot younger and a lot stupider). I was so far out of my league it was beyond pathetic. The level of skill, the pool of bodies available, the level of teaching, and the fanatic dedication to training that I experienced was beyond anything I had imagined. Unless a US squad were filled with Japanese ringers, there is no way any team of homegrown US kendokas could beat them. This is proven time and time again in the international competitions. The only question is who is going to come in second.

At the same time, it is true that there are a few superior teachers outside of Japan, regardless of nationality. The question is, who are they and where are they found? Frankly, since this is koryu, and there is no organization in the US that corresponds to the various umbrella organizations for koryu in Japan, there is no way of knowing, except by personal experience and word of mouth, who these teachers might be. Also, e-budo itself makes clear that there are widely differeing opinions on what, precisely, a "qualified koryu school/teacher" might be.

Regarding "Kabuki Koryu", again, I must ask, how does one know what this might be? The japanese are no different from anyone else; they love to sit down over a few beers and say: "Oh yeah, Nani-nani Sensei of Nantoka Ryu really sucks. I knew his father, and he was strong, but the ryu isn't worth a plugged nickel nowadays. Now, Nantoka Nani Nani Ryu, on the other hand..." If you've never seen or studied the ryu in question, and you respect and admire your sensei (which you must if you have any sense at all) you're going to nod and say "Hmm, I guess we don't have to waste our time with that nonsense, do we?" We all do this. That's where snobbery starts.

Sorry for the rambling incoherence. There's bound to be a point in there somewhere.

Earl

14th June 2000, 22:41
Hi Diane,

Thanks for joining in and offering your keen observations. I think we are basically on the same page here albeit I may need a little wiggle room http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif.

There is a misunderstanding to do with a quote attributed to you that I think needs clarification. The quote was:

"You can't study Koryu unless you come to Japan".

This can be interpreted several ways. I think most people that find a problem with this statement take it to mean "You can study koryu ONLY while in Japan." as opposed to "During your study of koryu at sometime you must train in Japan"

This is a big difference!

I know for a fact that Takamura Sensei disagreed with my first interpretation of your quote because he stated as much quite plainly on several occasions. He acknowledged that some training in Japan would be beneficial in helping a student grasp certain cultural aspect's which would maintain the "Japaneseness" of what they were doing. Maintaining certain Japanese cultural aspects in koryu study were very important to him because they are after all "Nihon Koryu". But he seems to have drawn a line at a different place than many others in reference to this debate. He felt that to say it was mandatory for someone to actually live in Japan for an extended period so they could grasp the 'essence" of koryu, was simply putting too much focus on changed and changing cultural details unassociated with actual mastery of the art. In his perception the "cultural features" left over from the feudal era that you mentioned, had changed so much in his lifetime that he felt their relevence must have been marginalized and changing before even he was a student.

The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time. He used to laugh with me over this considering it amazing that I was capable of such simplemindedness. (I thanked him for the compliment.)

I will quote him again although here he specifically talks about the technical aspects of koryu changing over time.

He stated:

"Remember that the ryu as they existed in the Warring States era were constantly changing and adjusting to the realities they faced on the battlefield. Only when this period ended did the innovation slow. Many of the classical schools as practised today are, at their best, reflections of the way that tradition operated in one short period of its existence. They are not an accurate reflection of its technical existence over its whole history. "

Maybe this gives some of you a better understanding of where he stood on this and why. His overriding passion was seeing the martial traditions of his ancestors survive. His bottom line was that they were truly "martial arts" and that the secrets they held would not survive if only in archaic forms. This does not mean he felt the forms were useless but that the secrets in them must be applied at some point in a more practical manner to remain truly alive and relevent.

When I asked Takamura Sensei for permission to open a dojo, permission was granted but with many qualifiers. The dojo could not be in a commercial location but had to be located close to my residence. It must include a kamidana and tatami. It had to be traditional in appearance and demonstrate the restrained elegence associated with a place of experiencing shugyo. (Takamura Sensei was often an unpredictable stickler about certain aspects of the ryu, as was his perogative.) He perhaps drew the line of what constituted koryu for him differently than some but personally I see the wisdom of his choice, even if it differs from those admired friends whose qualifications include long koryu training time in Japan. I respect you guys and your sacrafice in keeping koryu alive , even if we disagree on certain shades within the circle of opinions.

Toby Threadgill
Soryushin Dojo / Dallas

[This message has been edited by Toby Threadgill (edited 06-14-2000).]

Margaret Lo
14th June 2000, 22:41
Earl, I understand your points to be:

1) do not disparage people you have never met; and

2) when learning an art native to another country it helps to understand that country by going there.


-M-

Earl Hartman
15th June 2000, 00:32
Margaret:

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Trust you to sift out the main points.

Toby's letter brings up what I think the main point of debate in all of this, which is:

"Is the essence of the bugei (whether koryu or gendai) somehow tied up with the Japaneseness of the bugei, or can it be seprated from its cultural trappings?"

A related question would be "Can the essence of the bugei be separated from its physical expression in a particular ryu?"

These are fascinating and fundamental questions, and could (and probably will be) discussed incessantly. How one feels about them is going to determine where on the spectrum one falls when it comes to the necessity, or lack thereof, of living in Japan or knowing anything about the country and its culture, and on the degree of "historical accuracy" that is required for something to be "authentic".

Takamura Sensei obviously has his own view of these questions and has obviously given it a lot of thought. The bugei have obviously changed greatly, of course. Nothing stays as it once was. Each ryu within the tradition, in the person of its headmaster, will have its own take on this. Each bugeisha will make his or her own determination over what he or she considers important, based on the reasons that he/she has for studying them to begin with. These motivations will also change over time. Questioning the "validity" of a person's motivations is worse than pointless, it is divisive. However, discussing the validity of the historical provenenace of a particular ryu is a legitimate avenue of historical inquiry.

Earl

Diane Skoss
15th June 2000, 00:59
Thanks, Toby, for clarifying something that indeed many people have misunderstood about my position, re: koryu and training in Japan. I never wrote: "You can't study koryu unless you come to Japan" (at least I'm fairly sure I didn't http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif). In fact, what I have written (I'm not going to go quote it, but it's in that article "You want koryu? Come to Japan"), is that if you want to train in a koryu outside of Japan you should choose to train with a teacher who has spent significant time in Japan (such a person, could of course, be Japanese).

I also believe it is absolutely necessary for anyone responsible for transmission of a koryu (and that means the entire curriculum; i.e. menkyo kaiden level or equivalent) to have spent time in Japan. I don't think that everyone who trains in koryu (or any Japanese budo for that matter) needs to go to Japan, though I sincerely believe that it helps (see Margaret's cogent statement just above). I do think that anyone being considered for the highest level of license (and there are only a handful of ryuha in which there is someone outside of Japan who can even do this considering) should spend time in Japan. I also believe that if your single-minded most cherished priority is to train in a koryu, then going to Japan is by far your best bet.

Now perhaps this is where the snobbish reputation comes from. It isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who starts out on the path will end up with a license of complete transmission (hell, it isn't a foregone conclusion that everyone who wants to train in a koryu will even find a qualified instructor--there aren't that many of them around, in Japan or out). In fact, only a very very small percentage of trainees achieve the highest level. In some schools there is only one per generation. In other schools, there may be as many as a dozen at a time in a single line (it gets complicated trying to explain all the permutations--the koryu don't take easily to generalization). In many ryuha there are a fair number of the lowest level licensees running around; fewer of the next level up, and so on. The highest levels are indeed elusive (thanks, Doug, for that useful perspective!); only an elite few ever achieve it (I'm not one of them!). But that doesn't mean we can't strive for it, and if such a level of understanding of a koryu art is your goal, I still most strongly recommend living in Japan.

A quick question (I know I should know this but...), how many years did Takamura Sensei live in the West? Sometimes my experience has been that the Japanese (and I'm not saying this is the case with him, mind you) aren't fully aware of just how different our culture is from theirs, until they themselves have spent significant time here. They simply don't know how much we don't know about basics of Japanese etiquette and social/cultural behavior. Is it possible that he didn't have experience with the depths of our general cluelessness (re: how to exist in Japan) here in the West--I mean you aren't a very good example for him, being a quick study, thoughtful, observant (I'm being serious here, folks--Toby and I have met), meticulous with the cultural details...?

Again, the reason I think you must study in Japan is because the koryu today are a Japanese social group--they are more than a collection of teachings more or less based on battlefield techniques of the feudal-era bushi. To exist as a member of a koryu today, you've got to know what being a member of a ryu means, how to behave properly in various (Japanese) situations; it's all much more than technique, or even basic etiquette. Sure, the details have changed over time, but the current form of the koryu, in my opinion, must be maintained in this social structure--it is what has been transmitted--or it is not koryu (see Dave Lowry's introduction to Sword & Spirit for a far more elegant explanation of this point). I don't believe you can get the hang of this structure (let alone attempt to replicate it outside of Japan), without experience in it. I guess I am a snob, after all http://216.10.1.92/ubb/wink.gif



------------------
Diane Skoss
Koryu.com (http://Koryu.com)

Nathan Scott
15th June 2000, 04:20
Toby-san,

Although I had intended to refer to non-Japanese who have gone to Japan to study, your article clip offers some worthwhile points to consider. I had forgotten about that part of Takamura Sensei's article, which by the way I (like everyone else) really liked and largely agreed with/related to.

However, I am in agreement with Earl-san's position that we are talking about something more than the physical location of the dojo (dirt under our feet).

Personally, I think that advanced/senior instructors of traditional/classical arts should generally spend at least a little time in Japan specifically to understand the Japanese mind and cultural elements that are so much different (in many cases opposite) to the western mind and way of thinking. That doesn't mean that a western instructor has to copy the eastern ways of thinking and teaching necessarily, but without deeply understanding these subtleties there are invariably little matters of interpretation or "educated guesses" that are lost as a result. Yes Japanese are different now than they were then in alot of ways, but there is alot of general and specific things (intangible, but important) that seem to be the same that are relevant.

On the other hand, I think it's *possible* to learn these things outside of Japan, assuming that you have a seasoned instructor who understands these things and can accurately transmit/interpret relevant information to their students, but as has been pointed out, these instructors (right now) are *really* far and few between.

As an example in support of the non-Japan viewpoint, I've had the rather unique experience to study for some time under Obata Toshishiro Sensei, who was born in Japan but has lived in LA for the last 20 years. He is not only a native Japanese, but has a mindset and personallity straight out of feudal times (he rarely even wears western clothes!) Obata Soke began serious Budo training at 18 years old, and has pursued studying and teaching professionally for close to 35 years now.

Shinkendo is a new art, of which he founded after he moved to America, so our Honbu dojo happens to be here in Los Angeles, not in Japan. Since he is a full time teacher, I've been able to interact with him at least 4-7 days a week since I first joined, and spent many a weekend staying (living) at their house during the writing of his most current book.

So although we're not talking about koryu in this case, here is a unique situation in which Japan came to us, in a big way, for me in the form of an almost uchi-deshi experience.

Takamura Yukiyoshi Sensei moved to America, and so did Yoshida Soke (Yanagi ryu/Don Angier) bringing their traditions with them.

These are all rare cases, so in most respects it will be necessary to at least make trips to Japan to train under the headmaster's of most koryu.

Also, on one last point regarding this, I've heard proponents of Koryu describe the traditions as "living entities", that need to be carefully and properly cultivated. I believe that it is possible to create that kind of dynamic in a dojo outside of Japan, but you'd need to know what it felt like first to be a part of that before knowing where to focus your energies.

FWIW,


------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

15th June 2000, 06:07
Howdy, (just to add some Texan flavor)

This discussion has really clarified some things. What great opinions and observations.
I hope some of the readers lurking about out there have a better handle on the elite vs snob controversary. I think elite is winning the day although I'm sure some ego induced snobbishness will always exist in a few koryu practitioners. Heck I've met the most intolerable snobs in gendai martial arts so this phenomonon is certainly not limited to koryu circles.

I've got a funny story that Margaret made me think of in her last post while making the observation that the average Japanese of today knows nothing of koryu culture.

In Japan once, a friends associate named Nobiyuki who lived in Mito asked me the question of why I practiced Japanese budo. He was especially perplexed as to why I had any interest in something so archaic as Japanese swords. I was speechless. I was so caught off guard by the question that I just stood there staring at him. I finally responded with some vapid rambling about discipline, honor, preserving something worth saving, yuk yuk yuk. Well, this painful retort resulted in a most un-Japanese response. He said "I think thats very odd, Don't you?" How was I suppose to respond to that? He elaborated that he just could not fathom why certain foreigners would put their whole lives on hold, quitting good jobs, living in near poverty to train in so archaic a pursuit as budo. He adroitly posed this next question. "Mr Threadgill, if I quit my job and moved to Texas without knowing any english so I could learn to be a cowboy and rope little dogies wouldn't you find it a bit strange?

Little Dogies? I laughed my ass off and responded that I probably would. Nobiyuki just smiled in victory.

Later that evening he proudly displayed his collection of favorite videotaped movies. All John Wayne movies including "The sands of Iwo Jima and "The Fighting Seabee"s. The evening was a bizarre experience I will never forget.


Toby Threadgill

Margaret Lo
15th June 2000, 16:56
You know folks. It is not necessary to defend the necessity of going to Japan. It is necessary to convince me why that trip is unnecessary.

At Princeton University, or any university able to grant doctorates, every non-native scholar who studies Japanese art history or Chinese art history spends significant amounts of time in those countries. Many times, the objects they study are in London or New York and written work is available to them overseas. Theoretically they can just stay home, and they mostly do just that.

But every single western born and raised scholar spends at least a year in Japan or China - even though the art work they study is often 300 to 1000 years old, and the societies which produced these works are long dead and buried.

Why do they do that? I think because even the modern culture of Japan or China, despite the changes that have occurred in recent years, still bear a great deal closer resemblance to those older cultures than the ancient/honorable culture of NEW JERSEY, USA.

So I do not see the need to support the position that a trip to Japan is necessary. It is quite obvious that the trip is very important. It is important to note, however, that the trip does not necessarily help one's understanding of koryu because that is dependant on the ability of the student who is visiting.

As to Takamura Sensei's point of view:

"The argument could be made that by training in Japan one is attempting to prevent further maginalization. I tried this argument on
him once and Takamura Sensei didn't buy it at all. His position was that the koryu culture was irrepairably marginalized at the end of the feulad era, period, end of story. He felt that westerners like myself tended to romanticize koryu and see it as a snapshot in history that accurately reflected the past thru great lengths of time."

I think the essence of his argument seems to be that westerners go to Japan to satisfy their own romantic notions rather than doing hard technical work at home. I can agree with his assessment except that it is less based on the idea that going to Japan will not help you understand koryu, than on the idea that for some westerners, going to Japan won't help because they still won't understand Japanese culture, and that this is especially the case since few Japanese understand koryu culture.

Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.

-M-

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Margaret Lo (edited 06-15-2000).]

Earl Hartman
16th June 2000, 01:32
Mr Popie:

Your post is an excellent example of a lot of the things we have been trying to discuss. I do not know anything about you, in what arts you have trained, how long you have been training, or anything else.

However, your apparent shock at the fact that the champion of a kendo tournament did not whoop, holler, pound his chest like King Kong, taunt the man he had defeated, and otherwise make a disgusting spectacle of himself after winning a match (which is clearly what you expected) and the fact that you mistook his calmness, reserve, and dignity for shame, speaks volumes. I know that you will excoriate me for being one of thse horrible koryu snobs, but this one statement alone makes it painfully obvious that you do not know anything about budo (and this is the crux of the matter) AS IT IS PRACTICED IN JAPAN.

In the US, we expect the victor in any contest to exult in his victory, claim exclusive credit for it, and take it as manifest proof of his obvious superiority to the poor schmuck that he just humiliated. This is how we believe that Real Men are supposed to act, and all of the professional athletes in this country practice their in-your-face victory dance almost as much as they work on their sporting skills.

In Japan, anyone who acts that way is despised as an arrogant buffoon, and will promptly have the stuffing beaten out of him. There is always someone stronger, and any fool who thinks he is good enough to look down his nose at his training mates is heading for a fall. Indeed, much of budo training in Japan is geared toward beating that kind of arrogance out of people, not cultivating it. This is one of the most fundamental differences between Japan and the US, and explaining why this is important is beyond the scope of this bulletin board.

Also, a person who has spent significant time in Japan learning a traditional art has every right to expect any potential student of his/hers to defer to that experience and not come swaggering in expecting to be treated as an equal. In Japan, the person with experience is automatically the senpai, the senior. His/her experience must be respected. If a senior takes an arrogant tone, he is failing in his role as someone who must show the proper way to his juniors. However, the junior must act as befits a junior, and this means, most importantly, recognizing the plain fact of his own ignorance and accepting that the other person knows more than he does and is, consequently, worthy of certain degree of respect and deference.

It is precisely this acceptance of this heirarchy of skill and experience, and one's own place within it (which changes as one gains skill and experience of one's own) that is one of the most important traits a student of budo must have, and it is precisely this one thing that most Americans simply cannot bring themselves to do. We are trained to believe that we are all equal and that no one's experience is more valuable than another's, and that "lowering" yourself to anyone, no matter who he or she may be, is to humiliate yourself and lose face. Well, too bad. Budo doesn't work that way. In Japan, this arrogance, which we Americans mistake for pride, is the mark of a person whio has no business wasting other people's valuable practice time. Fortunately, life in the dojo for these people is usually made so miserable that they usually leave, undoubtedly cursing the damn koryu snobs as they walk out, never to return.

Earl

Earl Hartman
16th June 2000, 07:54
Mr. Popie:

I find your last post completely incoherent, and I have no idea what it is that you are trying to say.

The only thing that makes any sense is your statement that you know nothing about budo. If this is really true, and you are not being facetious or coy, then I must say that you take the chutzpah prize of all times.

This is a bulletin board for discussions about budo by people who practice and care about budo. If you do not practice budo and if you don't know anything about it, as you yourself admit, what in the Sam Hill are you doing here?

A snob is a person who presumes to discuss something about which he knows nothing, as you have apparently done. I do not know what your profession is, but let us assume for a moment that you are a physicist. I know nothing about physics and I freely admit it. If I were to attend a lecture you gave, would you not think it more than a little odd if I started accusing you of being a snob because you dared to reveal your knowledge and presumed to thereby put yourself above me? A person with any sense would defer to your obvious knowledge and, if he cared anything about physics, attempt to learn something from you.

If your preceding post was not a joke, and you really don't know anything about budo, then you should either start training or post to some other bulletin board where your comments would add to, rather than detract from, the conversation.


That Execrable Koryu Snob (Damn His Impudent Eyes),
Earl

Brently Keen
16th June 2000, 08:48
As I think I'm one of the guilty "koryu snobs" for my previous posts on the oft mentioned "pre-crash AJJ forum", I've tried to refrain from jumping into this discussion until now.

But I just have to say that the last several posts by Earl here were brilliantly well stated. As are Diane's, I find myself agreeing with them just about completely.

If I can add my own two cents: I don't think the term "elite" connotates snobbery in my mind at all. And while I think "elusive" accurately describes the koryu arts, I don't think it describes koryu practitioners as well as "elite" does. If that makes me a snob in anyone's mind, so be it.

Brently Keen

ghp
16th June 2000, 09:21
Mr. Popie,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elite, possibly (depends on length of study); no.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Those who go endure like it has been stated and from that they have a new sense of pride for their accomplishments and knowledge. When the get back to their country of origin they have a conversation of someone ignorant of Japan and Koryu and whose knowledge base comes from scholars and others who have been to Japan-all clearly not first hand knowledge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Secondary sources are important in research, but do not bear the same import as do primary sources. Second-hand knowledge can be almost as important as a primary source, provided it eminates (accurately) from one who has experienced the situation first-hand. However, you must be cognizant that you will unconsciously filter the information imparted to you. It's no one's fault, really; just a matter of "seeing the elephant" or going on "Hadj." Just as the person with direct experience filters information through one set of cultural lenses -- you,the secondary recipient, further filter that same information through an additional set of cultural lenses (sunglasses sometimes). Therefore, you may not be seeing what he saw. Granted, you now possess new information previously absent -- and it is much better than not having any information at all; however, concepts, techniques, explanations, etc., are clearer when you -- yourself -- have direct, first-hand experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... What might the perspective of each other as a result their intercourse be on Koryu? Would the knowledge one (went to Japan and learned Koryu to some degree) look down upon the ignorant one? If so, is this not an example of Koryu snobbery? Well, that is, if you consider the person who went to Japan more then a drop in the bucket of experience. That is 10 years in Japan studying a Koryu is a drop in the bucket right? Scholars spend lifetimes with just small parts of a culture. What more of a task is it for the Japanese martial artist?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This same argument is foisted time and again upon those with university and advanced degrees. Whether we like to admit it or not, people with academic qualifications *are* elite -- and, some *are* snobs; however, "elite" is not ipso facto "snob." Using the example of higher education, one can experience "reverse snobbery" every day -- "Johnny has a BA, MA, or PhD; therefore, he must think he's better than we. So we'll just laugh at the egghead and tell him that education is no substitute for "real" experience!" Or, "One does not need a university education to make it." Does this not happen in martial arts too?
"You don't have to go to Japan to study koryu;" "koryu don't teach practical street combat;" "koryu are ineffective;" etc. Never mind the fact that the person who spends time in Japan learns more about the cultural trappings of koryu -- or even gendai budo. It is still a worthy education. Do we "look down on the ignorant one?" -- NO! Personally speaking, I enjoy teaching what I have learned. I don't look down on anybody. However, I do feel sorry for those who think they have nothing to learn. That does not make me a snob, does it? If someone does not want to learn from my small experience that is fine -- there are others who feel they can learn something.

The "Budo Seikai" [martial arts world] is a different world. Just as university expands one's perspective, so does training in Japan expand one's understanding of budo-culture. It may not give you all the skills to "be a mechanic," but it does provide the ability to understand the theory of mechanics on a deeper level -- often in a shorter amount of time than it would take "on the job."

University is no longer the "elitist" privlidge it once was -- not since the GI Bill opened college for the average American in the late 1940s. However, the "average Joe" who attends does become an "elite." Whether he then becomes a snob is a totally different issue.

Perception (or mis perception) probably is also a factor. The martial artist who cannot go to Japan sees these "Japanophiles" discussing issues on a different level. They tend to gravitate towards each other. They use unfamiliar Japanese which is not the typical dojo-language. They speak of esoteric places with familiarity. They correct his pronunciation. It is not so much that the Japanophiles are "snobs" -- it is just that he will perceive them as "elitists, ergo snobs" because their level of education is significantly higher than his. Some who did not attend university feel uncomfortable in the presence university graduates. The grads tend to speak at a different --educated -- level which is unfamiliar and (perhaps) frightening to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, Earl I do find you a snob...more now after your post to me saying I know nothing of Budo. Your right I don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The message I am picking up here is: Snobs (i.e., those who studied in Japan) do not want to "waste" time with those who have not journeyed to Japan. This is patently incorrect. Everybody I know -- including Earl -- who has spent time in Japan sees themselves as a curator of the art they studied. They, in turn, are eager to pass along their knowledge to anyone who desires to learn. This is the epitome of responsibility -- dissemination of correct knowledge. Why is that perceived as being "snobbish?"

Regards,
Guy

------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

[This message has been edited by ghp (edited 06-16-2000).]

Undmark, Ulf
16th June 2000, 13:27
I guess this "Go to Japan-thing" is something requiering a lot of reading between the lines...

Going to Japan in itself will not help very much in understanding Koryu. I bet the kids and youths growing up in todays Japan don't know a thing about the "Koryu-culture". What do they know of what WE call Japanese culture?

The thing is that it IS possible to study Koryu (to a certain degree) without going to Japan. Just as it IS possible to study Koryu without ever recieving a Menkyo. It is also possible to live and study Koryu in Japan without ever understanding anything.

On the otherhand, since the Koryu is very small...in Japan and especially outside Japan, one has to search to find. This is true even for those growing up in Japan, they too have to search to find qualified instruction, wich is not found on the corner.
Such instruction demands hard studying and there are much more than just pure technique.

I guess that it will become obvious to most students that if one wants to get a deeper understanding, the price will be higher and the places to find the deeper understanding (of the surrounding culture and such) will be rare.

Rainforrests are getting rare too, and I feel I need to visit one before they are all gone...

Regards,
Ulf

Margaret Lo
16th June 2000, 16:01
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Popie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Margaret Lo:

Therefore, Mr. Takamura's argument does not persuade me that going to Japan is not helpful, only that it is no magic pill.

I see the point of your argument. Now I shall ask if you feel those who return from Japan (1 week to 10 Years having contact with a Koryu) have a right to be elite/snobby. Also if it is reasonable for those who have never had the chance to go to Japan to interpret these people as elite or snobs?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one who has ever posted on this thread has ever felt that training in Japan gives anyone any rights to be snobby. There is no justification for any one to perceive those who have trained in Japan to be snobs.

I for one have never been to Japan and I train in a modern art. I have not the slightest sense that any of the koryu practitioners are condescending to me.

Popie - You are trolling that much is obvious.

-M-

Nathan Scott
16th June 2000, 20:33
Mr. Popie - as a matter of courtesy, please take a second to note the proper name spelling of our list-ka when posting - two
in particular of which I listed below have many years in the arts and I noticed you habitually misspell them:

Lowery is Lowry, and Powers is Power.

http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif




------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Earl Hartman
16th June 2000, 21:15
I dislike getting into flame wars (this is my first one, as a matter of fact) but this is just too much. So now Margaret is a snob because she dares to have the effrontery, the sheer, unmitigated gall, to attend that effete bastion bastion of elitism, Princeton U? And poor Mr. Popie, feeling sorry for himself that he didn't have the money or the connections to make it, thereby implying that the only reason Margaret is there is because she's from some some rich high-society family? Did you ever stop to think that you might not have the brains to get into Princeton, Mr. Popie?

Margaret has never once presumed to lecture anyone about anything just because she attends a certain school; indeed she has never mentioned it once, as far as I know. For Mr. Popie to insinuate this just shows what a small-minded, envious little man he is. For shame.

So you don't take my opinion of you seriously. Fine. As you said, no skin off my nose. However, I think it is only reasonable for us to expect that you will, at least, take budo seriously when you presume to discuss it. Margaret's posts show her to be a serious and perceptive student of budo (and with a pretty good sense of humor and good taste in food, too, two things that are always important). Your posts, on the other hand, show you to be a smarmy, smirking poser who is only interested in stirring things up and sitting back and chuckilng at the trouble you cause. Since you don't know anything about budo, as you yourself freely admit, you should have the manners to show some respect to people who do, and who take it seriously, instead of impugning their integrity because you are jealous of them.

That Damned Koryu Snob,
Earl, Finding Himself Unable To Keep His Blasted Mouth Shut, Even When He Knows It Won't Solve Anything To Get Hot And Bothered

MarkF
16th June 2000, 21:27
I also train in a "modern" art, and most of my life, I have been told that I must go to the Kodokan to get the best, but you know what? The Kodokan has long cease to be it when it comes to judo.

I was invited to train at the kodokan at the age of sixteen in the middle sixties, but my family had not the money to pay my way. Should I go to learn and experience the culture even if the Kodokan has almost to be threatened (not literally) to answer email of snailmail just to get the list of fees for living and training there, as well as for two students who would like to go? It is attractive to be able to say "I studied at the Kodokan, but would one be better off in his studies? No, not for a second. Generally, ranks are paid for and one can be had by spending a few months there per every time one wants to go.

I have played judo in a foreign country, one in which the dojo there are mainly backed financially by the government. I found outstanding judoka in this country which was not Japan.

We dance around who we call names, but sometimes a snob is just a snob, no matter what one is learning or doing. Sometimes they are polite and sometimes the are very accusatory. So just where is he boundry? Modern combative art have taken a beating almost from inception, and most have persevered. I do think koryu will do the same, but as long as one holds up koryu to the stigma of not going to Japan, it will continue to be slammed, in a way. Japan is not scary because you can't speak the language, it is scary because of the way most Japanese are treated by their own ruling class. And that, I think, is a same, be it shado or judo, or any koryu.

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

Margaret Lo
16th June 2000, 21:41
Dear Earl:
Didn't you say you were planning to wean yourself off E-Budo? http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

Thank you for your staunch defense. I am grateful to have met you and others such as yourself on this board. I have learned a great deal from your posts, not the least of which is a little more about Judaism. I'm most glad we understand each other about food. You have earned a standing invitation to a fabulous little Chinese restaurant near me (Ha! you're secret motive is revealed - clever man! http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif)

Popie - I do not attend Princeton, nor have I ever attended Princeton. I teach a shotokan karate class at Princeton University. I mentioned Princeton in a post about its requirements of its graduate students.

My point on that post was simply:

If traveling to Japan is required for students of Japanese art history at Princeton, surely a similar reasoning applies to the serious study of Japanese budo - especially when koryu is not readily available here.

Your reaction to my mention of Princeton simply illustrates my point. Some practitioners have the koryu equivalent of Princeton degrees. Some of these people are snobs, but most are not snobs, just serious curators/scholars.

To the insecure among us, those people with elite credentials are per se snobs despite the fact that they have done nothing to earn them that disparaging label.

-M-

Earl Hartman
16th June 2000, 21:49
Margaret:

I guess I went too far and blew my cover. Yes, all along I've been doing nothing but angling for a free Chinese meal with the Shotokan poster girl of my dreams.

Seriously, though, is the place kosher? If it is, I'm there.

Earl

Margaret Lo
16th June 2000, 21:51
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MarkF:
...The Kodokan has long cease to be it when it comes to judo.

I have played judo in a foreign country, one in which the dojo there are mainly backed financially by the government. I found outstanding judoka in this country which was not Japan.

We dance around who we call names, but sometimes a snob is just a snob, no matter what one is learning or doing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mark - a large part of the arguments in favor of going to Japan is that koryu is NOT easily available in the US. This is quite unlike the situation for Judo where great teachers abound outside of Japan.

Also, if a snob is a snob, well who is the snob? I do not want to start wars but it is unfair to just generally state that a bunch of people are snobs without pointing to specific instances and then defending your position.

Again - the situation for koryu students is very different than that for judo or karate. I learned karate from an Iranian who learned from a Frenchman. They were both as good as possible and taught as pure a form of shotokan as occurs in Tokyo. I agree that I need not go to Japan to have good karate.

I think the koryu people need to go to Japan.

-M-

Margaret Lo
16th June 2000, 21:53
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Earl Hartman:
Margaret:

I guess I went too far and blew my cover. Yes, all along I've been doing nothing but angling for a free Chinese meal with the Shotokan poster girl of my dreams.

Seriously, though, is the place kosher? If it is, I'm there.

Earl<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Earl - I prefer "chick" or "babe". Kosher! Well ... uh - don't ask, don't tell. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Did you hear the one about the Chinese restaurant and their "Hunan Lamb" dish? Well the "lamb" is "pork". Those rotten Chinese.

-M-

Earl Hartman
16th June 2000, 22:28
Margaret:

Oooops.....thought the "lamb" tasted a little funny.

Actually went to a kosher Chinese place in Brookline, Mass. I'm sure you would have been horrified, but for an imitation, it was as probably as good as could have been expected. That's the problem with people like me who started keeping kosher only later in life: we know what we're missing.

Of course, if you want to have REAL Chinese food, you've just got to go to China. All those poor slobs, thinking they're getting the real deal in New York and Los Angeles. What a bunch of clueless maroons! Everybody knows that the only real, authentic Chinese food left is made by a chef in the Xinxiang Autonomous Region, who learned all of his recipes from his father, who was the last true surviving master of the secret school of the Three Sages of the Lotus Root, who trace their lineage back to the First Chef, Sum Good Chow, who live during the Shang Dynasty. Nothing else quite measures up, don't you know, my dear? Once you've had the real thuing, nothing else will do.

Earl

PS Seriously, my old girlfriend had a KILLER recipe for prawns in the shell with scallions and rice wine. ABSOLUTELY KILLER!! Let me know if you want it. It's really easy, and can't be beat. (Can't eat it anymore! Sob!!)

PPS Babe, huh? I'll remember that.

Margaret Lo
16th June 2000, 22:36
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Earl Hartman:


Of course, if you want to have REAL Chinese food, you've just got to go to China. All those poor slobs, thinking they're getting the real deal in New York and Los Angeles. What a bunch of clueless maroons! Everybody knows that the only real, authentic Chinese food left is made by a chef in the Xinxiang Autonomous Region, who learned all of his recipes from his father, who was the last true surviving master of the secret school of the Three Sages of the Lotus Root, who trace their lineage back to the First Chef, Sum Good Chow, who live during the Shang Dynasty. Nothing else quite measures up, don't you know, my dear? Once you've had the real thuing, nothing else will do.

Earl

PS Seriously, my old girlfriend had a KILLER recipe for prawns in the shell with scallions and rice wine. ABSOLUTELY KILLER!! Let me know if you want it. It's really easy, and can't be beat. (Can't eat it anymore! Sob!!)

PPS Babe, huh? I'll remember that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shang Dynasty produced famous bronzes used in ancestral rites. It is suspected that human sacrifice was part of some rites, and the bronzes contained some of those special ingredients.

So those recipes - to reach their true purpose may require the ultimate sacrifice. There were once 4 sages but then there were 3. hmmm

I'll take that recipe by e-mail please. Thank you.

-M-

Jay Bell
16th June 2000, 23:07
Is this what an anneurism feels like?

Jay

------------------

Banpen Fugyo

Nathan Scott
17th June 2000, 00:50
Yes.


------------------
Nathan Scott
Shinkendo & Aiki Buken Honbu dojo (http://www.shinkendo.com)
Tsuki Kage dojo (http://www.tsuki-kage.com)
Japanese Sword Arts Discussion Forum (http://www.swordforum.com/jsa)

Earl Hartman
17th June 2000, 00:55
Actually, I thought with an aneurism that you just kind of got dizzy and fell over, never knowing what hit you. This is more like trying to pass a kidney stone the size of a marble.

Earl, the Cause Of It All

Joseph Svinth
17th June 2000, 01:14
Actually, it would be easy enough to name names, and provide quantifiable examples. However, what would be the point?

* First, it is possible that the problem was nothing more than what Strother Martin in "Cool Hand Luke" called failyuh to communicate.

* Second, it would be rude, and at least in my working-class karate classes we were always encouraged to be polite rather than rude.

* Third, saying that Mr. So-and-So is technically gifted but one worthless human being would start flame wars and very likely end civil relationships with third parties. (Especially if it's true.)

* And finally, I seem to recall Don Cunningham being roundly rebuked for continuing to describe certain individuals by name. So if he can't call people that he thinks are yahoos by name, then why should you or I provide third-parties with gossip concerning people whose only fault is perhaps a touch of hubris?

In short, just because people do not name names does not mean there are not names that could be named.

Also, because some people have not responded to things said here does not mean that they agree with the charge, rebuttal, or countercharge. Instead, they may have simply decided to opt out, or shift to e-mail.

Courtesy is what is often lacking.

------------------
Joe
http://ejmas.com

MarkF
17th June 2000, 10:35
Hi, Margaret,
I think you misinterpreted part of my post. I could have said "soemtimes, a cigar is just a cigar" and made my point. What I meant is that sometimes things are exactly what they appear to be.

The second part of my post was just a general comment (or at least I meant it that way) that one may go somewhere to study something very specific and never find it. My mention of the Kodokan was only meant that sometimes, the elusive thing is hard to pin down. Meik Skoss is a good example as someone who did.

I was brought up being taught that if one wants to learn something of another culture, or make disparaging remarks concerning a people and/or its government or society one had better go to said place before spouting off, ie, a communist country. I think though, chances are better if one goes to Japan that the person will learn about the general culture of a place than something specific, in this case koryu. One would have to be blind, deaf, and otherwise handicapped to not experience this culture. Problems arise when we go blindly to a country such as Japan, and have "great expectations" of learning "true" martial arts. This is in no way saying you can't do it, but since even the gereneral percentage of Japanese who study any MA is about one-percent, your chances are slim unless one knows where to search. There are many on this forum who have lived in Japan and have taken great advantage of this and the quest for budo/bugei. Those who have, I think, are obvious. Guy and Earl come to mind as people who have something wonderful to share. The others I won't discuss because the point has all ready been well made by others. No need to punch a hole in a sinking ship http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif

My original purpose of going to a foreign country was to learn the language. MA was secondary at that time although I had great experiences doing judo with judoka I had only read about here. I also was lucky enough to be offered work there as a teacher of english as a second language which raised my learning curve to the max.

Living and experiencing any other culture is worth anything you might put into it. Also knowing the language opens doors one never thought possible. Five semesters of college foreign language study is fine if you like grammar, but in my experience one needs to get off one's behind and go there. I rather embarrassingly found this out the hard way.

So my comment meant nothing but what it said. It was not a definition or a description of anyone here as a snob. Joe mentioned it, I believe, by saying it was simply courtesy we are speaking of, and those who have beem mentioned here, in particular, are not, and never have been snobs (EG, earl and Guy). Actually, the general wa of these threads has been excellent in most cases.

BTW: Earl, sometimes it is necessary to flame out to make a point. Some seem not to understand this, especially on a BB (I have been trying to tone back what I post, but have found it nearly impossible to hold back, especially when named. Go get 'em!

Margaret,
In case there was ever any question, I find your posts to be humorous and mostly dead on. I do enjoy that about you, no matter what I think of lawyers http://216.10.1.92/ubb/biggrin.gif

Sincerely,

------------------
Mark F. Feigenbaum

ghp
17th June 2000, 11:19
Mark,

Thanks for the kind words about Earl, me, and the others. I think we all of us on this BB have mutual respect for each other. And I think we can all disagree (most strongly) at times -- while maintaining said respect; this makes e-budo enjoyable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Five semesters of college foreign language study is fine if you like grammar, but in my experience one needs to get off one's behind and go there. I rather embarrassingly found this out the hard way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must champion the cause of obtaining a strong grammatical background. I've lived in Thailand and Germany and learned the languages informally. Sure, I could get around quite comfortably; but, if I had the strong grammatical background, I feel I would have learned quicker while in-country. I base this observation on my own formal study of Japanese which began with an intensive 3 month course consisting of 4 hours of classroom and 4 hours of homework daily -- then, 2 years of 2 classes per semester at Monterey Institute of International Studies. When I lived in Japan (well, okay -- it was a military installation, so I was really in the US at night http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif ) -- I found that I was able to "understand" the language better because of the grammar.

I've seen reverse cases -- Japanese who have a strong background in English grammar pick up "regular" spoken English much faster than those who haven't studied (or "learned" -- there *is* a difference).

Well, since I'm off topic:

Mr. Popie,

Your analogy to food is fine -- however, you probably mean that "Chop Suey" is an American dish. Chow Mein means "fried noodle" and is called "Cha Men" in Japan, and something similar in Korea. http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif Sorry, couldn't resist.

So a chef technically be good without being "Authentic" (with a capital "A") -- however, if someone is going to open an Authentic Chinese resturant -- and survive critique -- it must be true Chinese cooking. And be aware that Chinese resturants prepare food differently for American tastes, just as Chinese resturants in Yokohama doctor the food for the Japanese taste.

Earl,

I just ate at a Chinese resturant tonight -- after reading your tet-a-tet with Margret. Yes, there are "kosher" Chinese resturants. This one is a 99 Ranch Market close to Hwy 237 and 880 -- they are Moslem Chinese! No pork -- plenty of lamb. Well, maybe *not* Kosher...but definitely you don't have to worry about pork. And they did have Kai-mushi [I calls em that -- sea-bugs -- cockroaches of the deep......shrimp]. Love em when they are shelled; but with the Mushi-yoroi [bug armor] they look like *bugs* to me and I can't eat them.

Regards,
Guy

------------------
Guy H. Power
http://www.trifox.com/aux/kenshinkan

[This message has been edited by ghp (edited 06-17-2000).]

Joseph Svinth
17th June 2000, 12:01
Popie --

My remarks were not directed at you, but at the thread in general. (For awhile there it looked like some serious road rage on the ol' Information Superhighway, you know?)

And for what it's worth, I thought your posting about the Japanese guy with his John Wayne movies was at least as insightful as Earl's posting about the Orthodox and Reformed.

So calmness all around, okay? This ain't a fight, it's randori/jiyu kumite/sparring. There's a difference, folks, honest!

Now, world at large --

A parable. Maybe it's relevant, but more likely it's just me rambling away during the middle of the night. But who cares, it's a nice story anyway.

There was a Star Trek Voyager episode where Janeway was on some planet and there met these old folks who said sit awhile. She said no, she had lots to do and no time to do it in. And off she went. But while she had lots of adventures (we have to fill 50 minutes of air time somehow), she didn't find the answer she was looking for. Dispirited, she came back and sat with the old folks. Who, of course, had the answer she was looking for, and had had it all the time.

Anyway, to apply this parable to our thread, let's say you want to study old-style Japanese martial arts. To sit awhile with the old folks, your best bet is undoubtedly a trip to Japan. But of course you'll need to learn the culture and language fairly well while you're there, otherwise all you'll get is monkey see, monkey do.

On the other hand, if your true ambition is nothing more than hanging with some great old guys who have enormous amounts of knowledge, then there is no reason to go far from your house, no reason at all.

John Lindsey
17th June 2000, 16:24
Gotta close this one down due to it exceeding the 50 post limit! Sorry for letting this slip by, and feel free to start a new one.

For those new members here, we generally close down threads at 50 posts because they tend to get big and SLOW...

Dave Lowry
18th June 2000, 22:41
To summarize the prosecutoral half of the nearly 80 messages my original post occasioned:
The principal evidence of koryu “snobbery” is A) not very many people have joined koryu; B) the majority of those who have, have done so during sojourns in Japan, and C) they are uniformly firm in their resolve that B was fundamental to A. This discomfits several readers (some of whom claim allegiance to organisations with no demonstrable ties to Japan or its history and who have, the more cynical among us might observe, an interest in establishing the notion that Japan and Japanese culture are scarcely more than incidental to learning koryu)

Apparently seeking to clarify this objection, a contributor poses (I’m paraphrasing) the analogy: Do I need to go to Mexico to learn to cook Mexican food? Though he may intend the question to be rhetorical, it is anything but. It is as well illustrative in a way I do not think he imagined.

To respond: You need, indeed, not go to Mexico to learn to cook Mexican food. Not if your concept of “learning” is the acquisition of some disparate techniques for assembling tacos or burritos, and if your concept of “Mexican food” is limited to a few dishes of some vague ethnic provenance.
Suppose, however, your notion of “learning” is a comprehensive understanding of Mexican cuisine? What if you want to know how the civilisation of Mexico has influenced its food, want to master the nuances of Mexico’s culinary arts? What if you want to roast borrego like they do in Jalisco, bake it as in Zacatecas, or steam it Puebla style and to appreciate the distinctions of each? What if you seek to understand why tortillas vary in size in various parts of Mexico and how this affects recipes and tastes? What if, in short, you want to understand Mexican cooking from the ground up?

You can certainly learn to make some kind of generic taco without ever venturing a single latitudinal degree into la tierra del agua dudosa. You can, by following directions in a cookbook or visiting the kitchen of your local Casa del Estomago Indispuesto. Doubtless you can learn some rudiments of clutching a sword, some discrete aspects of a koryu, never having hopped a wide-body JAL to Sumerami-kuni. But koryu—my colleagues will correct me here if I am mistaken—are disciplines of sufficient complexity that grasping them in any real way—in any meaningful way—demands a perspective exactly like that of the would-be Mexican cuisine gastronome. They cannot be acquired at any higher level without a concomitant exposure to their indigenous culture (Yes, I am vaguely aware that 21st century Japan is different from Sengoku-jidai Nippon. There are few conquistadors and fewer Aztecs running around in modern Mexico, either. Doesn’t matter. Their influences persist, the dynamics of their presence remains, the reverberations of their histories continues. Japan ain’t a damned bit different.)

There are no cookbooks reliably instructing in koryu, in any language. There are no koryu dabblers who can dispense a soupcon of a ryu’s curriculum in the cavalier fashion you might learn how to say, stuff a burrito from a Oaxaca expatriate. (Another point where the analogy breaks down: koryu is not transmitted in bits and pieces. They make no sense that way and have no viability.) The number of chefs capable of teaching koryu cuisines in this country could, no matter what anyone tells you, be counted on the fingers of both hands—with plenty of digits left over. And of those, not a single one would presume to completely instruct their students without expecting those students to spend time in Japan. Even those with full authority to teach have insisted that sooner or later, their students spend time in Japan absorbing aspects of its culture and knowledge specific to the ryu which are indispensable to their mastery and preservation. It is significant that those best in a position to know are unanimous in their opinions on this subject.

It is informative, finally, that a perusal of the opinions expressed by the “non-snob-don’t-need-to-go-to-Japan” contingent reveals a consistent perspective. None seem in any way concerned with what obligations they might eventually come to owe a ryu and in how those obligations might best be dispensed. On the contrary, the primary impulse is to what the ryu will do for me, what I may gain from it. This is entirely consistent with the spirit of modern, commercially oriented budo forms. Observing this or any other distinction, I know, is considered de facto evidence of snobbery. I risk the charge to raise this point: instead of posing the question with yourself at the front (Do I have to go to Japan to learn koryu?), turn it around. How will the techniques, traditions, the philosophy and lore of the ryu best be maintained through my contributions to it? If you truly believe those can be disseminated best in an environment, language, and culture all radically different from the originals, I cannot imagine how you might be persuaded otherwise.
I also don’t think I want to be invited over to your place for the all-you-can eat menudo feed.

Matthew W. Luedke
19th June 2000, 06:01
I wish to ask a simple question: does it matter if people think that the practitioners of koryu arts are elitist and snobbish?
I can understand how it would be a personal affront to be considered a snob, and to have an art which you've spent a good deal of your life learning to master called a bastion of snobbery. It probably frustrates koryu exponents, just as it angers lawyers when people denegrade them, and frustrates doctors when people accuse them of being distant and money grubbing. Unlike law and medicine, however, koryu is avowedly not a service sector profession, nor does the well being of koryu depend as heavily on public opinion about its exponents. Because of its postition in a very specialized niche of the martial arts community (a position apparently achieved by both twists of fate and the decision of its practitioners), the koryu will either continue to exist with small numbers of practitioners, or will die off, indipendent of public opinion. While the death of the koryu would be ultimately tragic, it would not be because the conventional wisdom considers them to be snobbish, but because there is no conventional wisdom on the koryu.
I would wager that some 99% of the world's population does not have the foggiest notion of the existance of koryu martial arts. And again, I would wager that the fraction of gendai practitioners that know of the existance of the koryu (both those who post on E-budo and the community at large) have, at most, had contact with the koryu through the books of Diane Skoss, Dave Lowry, and Donn Draeger, and perhaps, seen demonstrations at a festival or seminar. If anything, it is this minute fraction of the world's populace that knows that koryu are in existance, and it's this fraction that would form an opinion.
What of it if some of this tiny population thinks koryu exponents are snobs? Yes, it mars the reputation of the koryu. Yes, it is these few who might, one day, end up learning and passing on the koryu arts. But, as I said before, the koryu are niche arts; there will always be some people interested in learning and mastering them, and if not, then it's because so few people know about them at all, or wish to devote time to them. In fact, I'd be willing to bet a good amount of money on the fact that, if offered, most of the people who would call koryu exponents snobs would jump at the chance to learn the art (people generally love people they consider snobs when they're within their circle, but hate them when on the outside).
So, practically, I'm inclined to think that the big concern of being considered snobbish is personal. But, I also think that, in this case, the practitioners of koryu should let such an insult slide off of their backs. Why? I honestly don't think that the condemnation of snobbery, as issued by people have nothing to do with the koryu, is irrelevant. The koryu are, for the most part, more than two centuries old--some more than half a millenia old. I heard a story once where Harvard was issuing invitations to prestegious universities asking representitives to come to the the celebration of their tricentenial. Oxford sent a reply to the effect of, "We respectfully decline the invitation. We don't make a habit of celebrating odd fractions of the millenium." Is such a reply snobbish? Surely. Does it matter? No, because Oxford has the mantle of venerability and, quite frankly, has the right to be a bit prudish. In the same light, even if koryu practitioners were snobs, I would argue that, at least in part, they have as much right as Oxford does to be snobbish. A man or woman who practices these arts has gone out of his way to embrace and preserve a piece of the past, and likewise, the art they practice confers upon them the credibility of the centuries old institution. And, as Mr. Lowry suggested, he or she does so somewhat selflessly, asking what he or she can give to an ancient art. Yes, while some who practice gendai arts can say much the same thing about doing it selflessly, it is a rare phenomenon. And, because of this, I think that accusations of snobbery ought to be, not so much ignored, but certainly not taken to heart.
I take this chance to say, flat out, that I don't think the koryu practitioners are snobs. No more so than, say, aikidoka (and I am an aikidoka). In _Aikido and the Dynamic Spheare_, Adele Westbrook and Oscar Ratti frequently refer to other martial arts, both gendai and koryu, as "primitive," because they don't adopt aikido's pacificstic ethos and techniques designed to spare both attacker and defender. Is this snobbery? Perhaps, if one wishes to take it as such. Does that make aikidoka snobs? No. So, when a koryu practitioner says that one must go to Japan to truly understand the art and culture of the ryu, or claims a certain knowledge unattainable to the average individual, I would say that that is no more snobbery than the ethos of aikido, and the exponents of koryu are no more snobbish than aikidoka.
I've said too much, so I will conclude with this: koryu practitioners are no more snobs than any other martial artist. And, if they are called snobs, I don't think it should be taken to heart.

With respect to the koryu community from a novice member of the gendai community,


------------------
Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

Gil Gillespie
19th June 2000, 06:47
Well, Dave, you're fast becoming one of my favorite writers. Even with all your eloquence and that of Ms Skoss et al, I find the snobbery not in koryu but in the insistance that it must be experienced in Japan. And BTW the hands down worst Mexican food I ever had was in Mexico (uniformly heavy and uninspired). To lightheartedly paraphrase Diane: You wanna eat Mexican? Go to California or Mexico!

OK I admit CA & TX were Mexico until one of our imperialist muscle flexxings in 1846 and the Latino culture in both states is "koryu" & hundreds of years old. My koryu experience is MJER Iaijutsu and Shindo Muso Ryu Jyodo. Shimabukuro Sensei (MJERI) is closely in touch w 20th Grandmaster Miura Hanshi in Osaka so the roots are kept strong. My Aikido sensei earned his dan in jo in Fukuoka as a visiting Fullbright scholar in 1988. I don't consider my instruction in these arts watered down because it occurs here in the swamp.

I cherish what Dave said about a budoka's debt to his ryu. This was instilled in me in my gendai Aikido training over the last 12 years. I was able to visit and train in Japan in 1990 and 1999 but I never lived there and trained over a period of years. I know that would leave an indelible mark on my budo experience. Acknowledging that sojourn to be beyond me, I perceive that Japanese experience to be more a gift than a necessity. Budoka who can live and train in Japan I see as luckier, not better. If it happened to me I may feel just the opposite. But it has not.

What has happened to me is the good grace of wonderful instructors who love their art(s) and the Japanese culture from which they emanate. It is more valuable to me to draw my sword in front of Shimabukuro Sensei than it is to be in front of Katori Shrine, although I'd love that experience some day.

In 1990 I trained in Shizuoka with the Yoseikan folks and met Founder Minoru Mochizuki, then 84 years young. Sensei said that as much as it saddens him the future of Aikido and Japanese MA as he saw it was not in Japan but in France (where he brought Aikido in the early 50s) and in America, where he sees the passion and true respect for MA flourishing.

As gendai and gaijin as I may be I would not ever want to separate the Japanese culture from the arts I study. I have never trained in Japan in koryu for a long time. But the best chile rellenos I ever had were on my block in San Francisco.

Earl Hartman
19th June 2000, 10:06
(Reuters) Tokyo, Japan

SHOCKING NEWS: BUDO AND BURRITOS NOT RELATED!

Blind Taste Test Makes It Official: "Koryu Doesn't Taste Like Tamales At All", Judges Say

This news just in: scientists, historians, anthropologists, restaurateurs, and various other experts from a wide variety of academic and culinary disciplines, after subjecting the koryu (and, for control purposes, the gendai arts) to a rigorous and exhaustive battery of tests, including a cook-off, have discovered to their astonishment that they bear no resemblance whatsoever to either burritos, chop suey or any other food (even including Wonder Bread with Miracle Whip). Interestingly, especially in the case of the koryu, it appears that they are quite unique and defy facile definition, in spite of their superficial resemblance, in the eyes of some ignorant and uniformed (yet pompous and self-righteous) yahoos, to various ethnic foods.

Attempts on the part of various wanna-be koryu chefs to recreate the flavor of the koryu using only the finest local ingredients failed miserably in a blind tasting. Some of the chefs suspect that the panel of judges, consisting of internationally renowned experts in the field who have devoted their entire lives to the koryu, such as Otake Risuke Sensei, Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, and Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, was biased since they had a stake in the outcome (some of the disgrunteld ersatz koryu chefs darkly hinted that the judges had been bribed with the promise of a lifetime supply of Chateau Mouton-Rothschild '35, but this was not proven). The overall verdict: "Some of it tastes OK, I guess, but it ain't koryu".

A formal protest was filed after the blind tasting, with the chefs insisting that the judges be replaced with a truly objective panel consisting of Ronald McDonald, Joe Blow, his brother-in-law Joe Sixpack, John Q. Citizen and his wife Jane Doe, her cousin Mary Anybody, Beaver Cleaver, Rikki Lake, Dr. Laura Schlesinger, and Moesha (Rosanne, Geraldo and Oprah were suggested as alternates. Martha Stewart was instantly and unanimously rejected by all concerned). "Since they have never tasted koryu food before, and, indeed, have never even heard of it before today, we feel that they are far more qualified to judge our imitations on their merits. After all, someone who is completely ignorant of the subject under discussion is far more objective than any expert, since they have no prejudices. All of the experts are just snobs, anyway, walking around with their noses in the air huffing and puffing about "the real thing". What is "the real thing", anyway? If the ignorant schmucks off the street think it's the real thing, doesn't that make it so? Majority rules, right? After all, the guys who paint those velvet Elvises, card-playing dogs, crying clowns, and little waifs with eyes the size of canteloupes move more product than Leonardo-Whatever-His-Name-Is. What's the big deal about the Mona Lisa anyway? Koryu is no different. Nobody, ESPECIALLY the people who have been studying it for years, has any right to pigeonhole it according to their narrow-minded definitons, and anybody who tries to do so is just a big fat snob, so there! Art, shmart, we know what we like!"

The protest was rejected, igniting a bench clearing brawl, which, while fiercely contested, was mercifully short, since although the chefs vastly outnumbered the judges, they were armed only with frying pans, woks, steamers, a few knives and cleavers, uninfomed opinions, and half-baked ideas based on third-hand and fourth-rate information. They were no match for the katanas, nodachis, naginatas, nagamakis, lifelong study, first-hand knowlege, deep commitment and daily training of the judges, who dipatched the self-deluded horde with a deadly accurate flurry of well timed and well placed slashes and thrusts, with an occasional kata-te gyaku kesa giri thrown in for good measure (even though such a waza could be considered a little too gaudy for the occasion, which, considering the caliber of the oppoition, really only required the most basic technique).

The surviving chefs beat a hasty retreat, vowing to peddle their wares elsewhere where no one would know the difference. The "Koryu Radical Action Proletariat" (KRAP) was immdiately formed, and headquarters were established at the local Walmart, just down the aisle from the censored video section.

Earl

PS: Mr. Popie, I'm still waiting for you to explain why a person such as yourself feels qualified to expound at such length on budo, about which you have feeely admitted you know nothing. If you would be so kind, please inform us what martial arts you pracice, if any. Pending your answer, I will take your comments more seriously (or not).

Earl Hartman
19th June 2000, 10:29
To All and Sundry:

It occurred to me immediately after I posted my previous missive that although it was intended as a joke, some people may be offended by my use of the actual names of actual teachers. I intended to edit them out, but hit the "Submit" button before exercising proper judgement. It was (is) late at night, and caught up in the spirit of my little prank, I negelcted to exercise proper caution and respect. If anyone is offended, I apologize deeply and abjectly, and will submit myself to the correction of my senpai should they feel it is required.

This is no joke, by the way. If I am hoist, it is properly on my own petard. If anyone is offended, the moderator should feel more than free remove the post from the board, or at least remove the names of actual people from it.

Once again, deepest apologies and no offense meant.

Earl, Nursing His Self-Inflicted Wounds, and Hopefully the Wiser For It

Matthew W. Luedke
19th June 2000, 14:28
Mr. Popie,

Mr. Luedke? I can't even drink legally in the U.S., so at my age, I doubt I should be called Mr. Luedke http://216.10.1.92/ubb/smile.gif. Matt will do just fine. Further, if we're going to shed each other's blood (not to mention flame each other's posts http://216.10.1.92/ubb/tongue.gif) in heated debate, we should at least do so on a first name basis.

Beyond this, I would just like to point out that you and I do agree to an extent. In fact, you stated my main point more succintly that I ever could: "Why shouldn't those of Koryu... let it roll of their back?" But, I believe we reach this conclusion from different reasoning. I conclude this, frankly, because if Koryu practitioners spend their lives, or a good portion of them, mastering their martial art, then denegrating nattering of people who haven't should have very little meaning for them. I would say the same thing to aikidoka, judoka, karatedoka, etc. who also spend their lives mastering their art: "Ignore the snipes of people who don't know what they're talking about." This is why I'm always amused with long, drawn out threads where people vehemently fight for the "honor" of their style. If you're a capable martial artist, you've devoted your life to your style, and your style is functional, who cares if someone calls you a snob? (This is not to say that fraud and illegitimacy should not be discussed, eg. the thread in the Rev. Dr. High Priest Grand Champion Soke thread in Aikijujutsu). Now this isn't a 007, licence to act like a jerk--people should avoid acting like a snob, whenever possible. Moreover, if you've spent your life refining your skills, you should probably also spend some time learning how to coexist peacefully and unpretentiously with your fellow man. But, there's a fine line between snobbery, and justifiable pride in one's accomplishments and, more specifically, one's vocation. If an observer mixes up the two, or can't tell the difference, then that's a flaw on the part of the observer, and he should be politely ignored.

Oh, and all this talk of authentic Mexican food reminds me of a little hole-in-the-wall restaurant in Cozumel--El Foco... really good food.

Anyhow, must go off to the lab. Ugh!

------------------
Matt L.
"Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it."-René Descartes

Gil Gillespie
19th June 2000, 16:16
Earl-

Classic post! Loved it. An all-timekeeper. No need to apologize. We don't have to agree. I'm sure you're aware there are very serious 30 yr plus budoka on this forum with "junior member" after their names and only 5 or 6 posts. One of them mentioned to me that as avidly as he reads E-budo he doesn't want to post because there's no need entering frays that have been around forever and that can't be solved.

Who's trying to solve anything? The true value of this forum is that it elicits posts like yours and the literature of Dave Lowry. The interaction is the whole thing, just like the DOING of it in training.

Another of these "jr members" (a dojo sensei sandan in koryu who just returned from training in Japan) sent me a beautiful lengthly e that I encouraged him to post. It would have been one of the pearls on this topic. But respecting his wishes it will remain in his folder. Too bad there.

Some of us do run on at great length. I would only ask that long posts be paragraphed a little more. Take a breath. Hit "enter" a couple times. Actually I have to force myself to read those walls of words. Sometimes I just skim or skip. Posts like that are as daunting as a 20 minute John Coltrane sax solo.

Margaret Lo
19th June 2000, 16:39
Heck - I'm hungry.

Kit LeBlanc
19th June 2000, 19:08
Hyaku brings up a good point in the "Reasons for Going to Japan" thread that I feel needs to be mentioned here. On the gendai/koryu snob thing.

Let's address the fact that virtually every koryu teacher mentioned here in these threads also diligently practices and sometimes teaches gendai martial arts (judo, kyudo, jukendo, karate-do, aikido, etc.) I would venture to say that most of their students do the same thing.

I would think that if they were really "koryu" snobs they would not deign to practice or teach a gendai budo. How do we account for that?

Kit

Earl Hartman
19th June 2000, 19:46
Mr. Popie:

I have no campaign or agenda at all. As a matter of fact, far from having a stroke, I am enjoying the joke. I simply want to know what your experience in martial arts happens to be. All martial artists I know never hesitate to state for the record their relevant experience in the martial arts. They do not brag about it, but they will give the information if asked. You have elected not to do so, for whatever reason. It is for this reason that I find it hard to take you seriously. The false humility and coyness that you display reagrding your martial arts credentials are the marks of a real snob. Why don't you just tell us what arts you practice and with whom you practice them? Who knows, we might find out we know people in common.

I still have yet to understand where you originally got the idea that people who practice koryu arts are "snobs". You couldn't have gotten it from me, since you obviously held this idea before these threads were started. If I am a snob simply because I object to having my firends called snobs in public, then I stand guilty as charged. No person who has any respect for his fellow martial artists would start a thread predicated upon the assupmtion that koryu practitioners are all snobs. Yet this is what you seem to have done, and it is to this that I object.

Earl

Brently Keen
19th June 2000, 20:58
Earl,

That news report was exceptionally well conceived. Bravo!

Now, I think this thread has gone on way too long now. Perhaps we could channel the creative writing genius of Lowry-san and others in a more worthwhile discussion?

Frankly, I think some folks have been taken too seriously with regard to their opinions about alleged snobbery and thus they've been allowed to dictate the nature of these discussions a bit too much for their own experience to warrant.

Brently Keen

Tony Peters
20th June 2000, 08:26
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

Hyaku brings up a good point in the "Reasons for Going to Japan" thread that I feel needs to be mentioned here. On the gendai/koryu snob thing.

Let's address the fact that virtually every koryu teacher mentioned here in these threads also diligently practices and sometimes teaches gendai martial arts (judo, kyudo, jukendo, karate-do, aikido, etc.) I would venture to say that most of their students do the same thing.

I would think that if they were really "koryu" snobs they would not deign to practice or teach a gendai budo. How do we account for that?

Kit

I disagree I know for a fact that one of My Sensei's no longer practice any Gendai arts (he is a student of one of the sensei's mentioned). I'm not sure if one could/would consider MJER Iai a Koryu...I do and my Iaido sensei ocasionally does seitei but not often (lately). Gendai have there place, I got my start (shodan) in Aikido before being seduced by the Koryu arts (three of them) It will be very hard to leave my sensei's in two years when I transfer howeveruntil that time I will not practice any Gendai arts...I just don't have the time nor do I need the distraction.

MarkF
20th June 2000, 09:52
Guy,
I wanted to reply before, but John closed the thread. I didn't mean that learning and studying a language in a classroom is not helpful, it just does not help one communicate or understand others in said language. I received very fine grammatical help in school, but it was not until I lived it did I realize the classroom is limited. It took a while, but now I can speak, understand, and even dream in another language. I finally realized one day that I was actually speaking in another than my first language. Thatis what I meant by "not getting help in a classroom" or something like that, anyway. I know you out a lot of time into it, and just so you don't think too harhsly, I did want to clear it up. Actually, learning a froeign language helped my English so much that I was the lab and English club teacher at the two schools at which I taught. See? I didn't even end the sentence with a preposition:D

Joseph Svinth
20th June 2000, 13:07
Webster's definition of snob: "1. One who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those he regards as superiors. 2. One who tends to rebuff, avoid, or ignore those he regards as inferior. 3. One who has an offensive air of superiority in matters of knowledge or taste."

Now, I seem to recall several people writing that in koryu the student should copy the master's every move, doing exactly what he does, without question. Sounds like definition 1 to me. The general consensus is that Japan is an excellent place to imitate, fawningly admire, and vulgarly seek association with those one regards as superiors. Personally I suspect any bureaucracy could provide similar practice in sucking up, but no matter; definition 1 seems to fit some of these writers' understanding of koryu fairly well. (That of many gendai people, too, but in this thread we are simply talking koryu.)

Do definitions 2 and 3 fit as well? Well, let's try some more quantification. Over time Mr. Lowry has provided varying numbers of North American koryu practitioners. He started with a hundred, changed that to five hundred, and then settled on a number that could be counted on two hands with digits left over. It would have been simpler to say six to eight, but hey, math games are fun. Anyway, I'll assume the upper end of the range and guess that Mr. Lowry considers the following individuals to be legitimate.

1. Amdur, Ellis
2. Armstrong, Hunter
3. Chambers, Quintin
4. Clark, Chuck
5. Relnick, Phil
6. Skoss, Diane
7. Skoss, Meik

Now, that said, a couple quick inquiries revealed that the following individuals also teach what they claim are legitimate koryu arts with the permission of senior Japanese instructors or associations.

1. Angier, Don
2. Banks, Quinn
3. Bodiford, William
4. Cyr, Sebastien (Canadian)
5. Fabian, Stephen
6. Fink, Dennis
7. Friday, Karl
8. Fuller, Lorraine
9. Heisler, Richard
10. Huff, Gregory
11. Maneker, Ken (Canadian)
12. Muromoto, Wayne
13. Pietrelli, Richard
14. Polland, Rick
15. Ray, John
16. Suino, Nick
17. Tanaka, Miyako
18. Taper, Mark
19. Taylor, Kim (Canadian)
20. Yamauki, Sachiko

Now, my question is this -- by whose authority are these twenty people NOT qualified? If the answer is not easily quantifiable and mutually agreeable to all parties concerned, then definition 2 is starting to look good.

Finally, some of the rebuttals written in defense of koryu have struck me as being unnecessarily cruel. (Humor often is when directed at individuals.) As a result I'd score some points for definition 3.

With these thoughts in mind, I suggest that we can now state the following based on quantifiable data.

1. Some koryu instructors are human rather than gods, and dare I say it, sometimes act snobbish, just like the rest of us.

2. There are more than a handful of legitimate koryu instructors. Indeed, the number is larger than the number of good professional boxing trainers and is definitely growing faster. Therefore in another decade koryu should no longer be rare in the US, Europe, or Australia.

3. There are 6-8 legitimate koryu instructors that Mr. Lowry thinks are better than all the rest. An explanation of how the rest fall short might help them someday achieve elite status, too.

One last thought. This whole long messy thread began because a senior student was asked by a junior why koryu people seemed so snobby. Since it is unlikely that the junior personally knew any koryu teachers, it seems probable that he got his misperceptions by reading "Black Belt" or equivalent publications. If so, then columnists for such publications should be urged to write future articles more carefully.

Margaret Lo
20th June 2000, 14:51
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Webster's definition of snob: "1. One who blatantly imitates, fawningly admires, or vulgarly seeks association with those he regards as superiors.

Now, I seem to recall several people writing that in koryu the student should copy the master's every move, doing exactly what he does, without question. Sounds like definition 1 to me.



No thread from anyone posting thus far given us any indication that anyone is fawning or vulgar. I think your definition of "snob" requires the inclusion of "fawning" or "vulgar".

Therefore, you are left with imitation alone: "Copying the master's every move, doing exactly what he does without question." Well that sounds to me like the traditional method of passing on an art in China, Korea and Japan. Sounds like how calligraphy, painting, flower arrangement and martial arts are taught throughout that area of the world.

Sounds to me that the conclusion that imitation is necessarily equal to flattery or fawning is culturally biased.

-Margaret Lo-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-20-2000 at 08:58 AM]

Ron Beaubien
20th June 2000, 16:08
Here is another definition of "snob". This one was taken from the only dictionary I have on hand. Namely, the American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition):

"Snob (snob) n. 1. A person who is convinced of and flaunts his social superiority. 2. A person who despises his inferiors and whose condescension arises from social or intellectual pretension."

Might this definition be a little less vague?

I hope this helps,

Ron



[Edited by Ron Beaubien on 06-20-2000 at 10:11 AM]

Chuck Clark
20th June 2000, 17:05
Joe,

I don't understand how you came to put me in the first group you listed above. I know those folks and Phil Relnick is my teacher in Shinto Muso-ryu, but I do not teach any koryu art. Jiyushinkai Aikibudo is most definitely modern, although I have been told our practice has many koryu aspects.

We do practice Shinto Muso-ryu in my dojo, the Jiyushinkan, in Tempe, Arizona, but Phil Relnick Sensei is the teacher. Unfortunately, it's one of those long distance "love affairs" and we spend lots of money on airline tickets.

My attitude is this: We've been doing this practice for a long time (sure it changes some, but we do our best to keep the kata as close to what was taught by our teachers and their teachers), and if you want to practice with us, you're welcome. You should understand, though, that this practice will not change for you...you must fit to the practice.

This is a paraphrase of something my teacher has said.

There's lots of junk out there and there's lots of good stuff. Of course, I think what I do is some of the "good stuff" or I wouldn't be doing it! But then that probably fits everyone else too.

If I'm a SNOB... then at least let me assure you all that my intent is gentle and uplifting. One aspect of the definitions that I and my students definitely don't fit is..We do not imitate anyone without question! Great Faith Tempered With Great Doubt.

Regards,

Dave Lowry
20th June 2000, 17:48
Mr. Svinth is uncharacteristically careless in his suggestion I have waffled in my estimates. I began by placing the number of koryu “exponents” at less than one hundred. For the sake of answering his argument I noted theoretically that we could quadruple or quintuple my original estimate and my conclusion (that there are not enough koryu practitioners in the West for a newcomer to the budo to have drawn conclusions about them though personal contact) would be unaltered.
In a later message, I placed the number of individuals capable of “teaching” a koryu at less than ten. Practising is not the same as teaching, nor does the former imply the latter. Mr. Svinth knows this. He is as well an excellent researcher and scholar and so he knows better too, than to rely on arguments of pedantry such as quoting a dictionary in an effort to make a point.

Richard A Tolson
20th June 2000, 18:27
Well here I go again. I have been trying to hold my tongue since this whole debate began.
First, let me say I have no ax to grind against anyone, koryu or gendai.
I have exchanged e-mails or posts with Mr. Amdur, Mr. Lowry and both of the Skoss's. All have been very cordial and helpful whenever I have asked a question. Ms. Skoss has allowed me to put links from her site on my new website. I have most of Mr. Lowry's books and always recommend them to friends. Mr. Skoss provided me with some valuable info awhile back on the Yagyu-kai. Mr. Amdur has been very forthcoming in information whenever I have asked a question.
So are these specific people snobs? Not in my estimation.
However, have I occassionally read posts here or at Iaido-L that I felt came off abit harsh? Yes, I have. However, to categorize someone as a snob based on a correspondance made on what might have been a bad day is a bit extreme.
I know I have said things on certain forums that in hindsight were rude and hopefully out of character.
So give these people a break!
Hasn't this thread gone on long enough?
Why must all the negative threads always be the ones that go on the longest (like I'm helping here :))?

Richard
http://pub16.ezboard.com/bsamuraibujutsu

MarkF
21st June 2000, 04:35
Dave,
It is one thing to paraphrase someone for using another country's cooking style as a means to an end, but you have made the assumption that you know what is what south of the border. In fact, you have not only insulted an entire people, but you have assumed that no one here would question your very good, but very innacurate "dictonary" Spanish. You want to equate koryu with "mexican food?" That's fine with me, but don't make all these assumptions for us. I have not doubt you have knowledge of the poorest regions of Mexico, but you insult them by your quaint, but misfired attempt at humor, and at the same time, you come off even more an example of the topic of your own threads. You may or may not know of what you speak as for koryu, but please do not assume you know jack about Mexico and indeed, Spanish.

Your joke about the land of doubtful water is not only wrong, but you would have the people looking at each other attempting to ascertain what it is you mean. Assuming you know what your dictionary says, by employing the word "borrego," you have insulted an entire people by referring to them as "simpletons." While the dictionary you possess may or may not be accurate technically speaking, you also assume no one will question you on this knowledge, as you have concerning koryu. Might I suggest that before you go on with all your assumptions, that you first make sure you know what the hell you are talking about? You seem to think you are a master at knowing the differences in cooking styles in the poorest and least educated part of Mexico (the Southern part), but even your jokes are not comprehensible, as you use words in your jokes which have almost no meaning in the contexts in which you have used them. I spent a fairly decent part of my life to study and learn the culture, not mention living it, do please keep the comparisons of Mexican cooking, your undoubted travels of Mexico to showing slides to your neighbors. You may or may not like the opinions of others who have researched the matter, but I do agree on one thing. It is much better to live the experience than talk the talk. However, you do come off as one who thinks he has, but hasn't and has only come across as one of the topic's descriptions of some poeple. I for one have read some of what you have written in BB magazine, but it does leave a lot to consider.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 10:53 PM]

MarkF
21st June 2000, 04:45
Sorry, double post, deleted.:o

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:22 PM]

MarkF
21st June 2000, 05:17
Dave,
You find Mr. Svinth's reply "uncharacteristic?" Do you mean he gave an opinion, along with his "characteristic" giving of figures as well? If memory seves, and without going back to review, you have given at least two differing numbers concerning koryu teachers. That some do not have a "license of transmission," as Mr Clark implies, matters not. You seem to have problems with almost everyone who disagrees with you. You receive nearly eighty responses on your first post because the post was allowed to go beyond the standard of fifty posts on E-budo. Mr. Svinth gave names and numbers to back up his statements which is very characteristic of his posts. You, on the other hand do not mind the doubling, tripling, etc. of numbers you gave, but protest because all the teachers listed did not have a licence to "fix" transmissions. Please take into consideration that you are no different than anyone who posts here. It is a bulletin board, and until everyone agrees it still is opinion. Take the blinders off Mr. Lowry. You may miss a good part of your life.

[Edited by MarkF on 06-20-2000 at 11:27 PM]

Richard A Tolson
21st June 2000, 05:28
Woe Mark,
Take a chill pill bud!!!! I thought Joe provided some good insight too, but he was civil about it and so was Dave's reply.

Joseph Svinth
21st June 2000, 08:37
Sorry, Mr. Clark, for the mistaken identification. My sources uniformly agreed that your martial arts were as good as they came, and as a result I jumped to the conclusion that you must have been an elite koryu practitioner rather than just another gendai type.

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.

Mr. Lowry -- I apologize for any errors, but admit to never having extensively explored US koryu politics and history. Therefore much of what you see here is me thinking out loud.

I also respectfully bow to your greater knowledge and until better information is received agree to henceforth state that on the basis of information received from you there are fewer than ten real koryu teachers in North America today. Do you want to write the other twenty folks notifying them that in your opinion the odds are 6-to-1 that they are poseurs or should I?

MarkF
21st June 2000, 09:14
I do apologize to anyone out there who was insulted by the tone of my reply concerning Dave Lowry's knowledge of Mexico and/or Spanish, particularly the Mexican dialect. I just got the feeling that there was more than an analogy being made by Dave. It just goes to show that one had better be sure of what one says in a foreign language before posting it. It is also recommended that since this thread is about koryu of Japan, then leave the analogies as such at home. You never know who is out there lurking.

Margaret Lo
21st June 2000, 14:36
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth

Ms. Lo, regarding my definitions, yes, it is quite possible that Webster's is wrong. Probably I should go to the library and read the Oxford English Dictionary definition, as that remains the English standard. If so, then my analysis is incorrect, as it was based on faulty premises. Nevertheless, as Professor Bodiford reminded us awhile back, when discussing anything one really should begin by defining terms, otherwise we end up talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we should ask the young fellow who started all this to define his terms, as that is the only definition which is truly relevant to the discussion at hand.

As for the analogy, well, if you find it inappropriate, ignore it. Nevertheless, I do not see how this one is any worse than comparing a class held two nights a week after work to months of intensive training.



Joe - I would be interested in seeing the Oxford Dictionary definition. My disagreement with the analogy is just that, my opinion. I'm not sure I understand what you mean about comparing classes?

-M-

21st June 2000, 15:03
It seems to me that the real snobs are those members of styles with doubtful origins that continue to try and affiliate themselves with legitimate koryu. I've never experienced any actual instructors of koryu who felt it necessary to put on airs about their practice. Yet, I've met any number of instructors and practitioners of rather questionable styles or organizations who try to align themselves with authentic Japanese koryu while treating all others as inferior. So why all this discussion?

Dennis Hooker
21st June 2000, 15:14
What are we looking for? Why do we choose one art over another and why must we defend ourselves as snobs or anti-snobs. Hell, one is as bad as the other, some budo folks are like those fundamentalist Christians that don’t wear jewelry because it draws attention to themselves, but they also make a show out of not wearing jewelry to display their piety. For some folks a koryu connection is principal, too others it is not. One’s training should not be less dear to one just because life’s folly has not allowed a direct connection with the koryu of Japan. However, may feel incomplete and some believe their training has less merit because of this. Therefore, they cast aspirins upon those that have. Also it can be said that “some” of those that live or lived in Japan and trained in Japan in koryu do show arrogance, many times out of proportion to their skill. I know may people, some who studied koryu arts in Japan, some of whom pretend to be warriors and others which are warriors that pretend not to be. Of course, there are those that don’t even consider the issue but are only interested in the art as a personal growth tool, and a living lesson in history.

Having had many of the Japanese and Okinawa arts open to me over the years I selected Aikido and I chose my teachers because of what I wanted and what I was looking for. I also selected my association with MJER for the same reason. I suggest that many folks have done the same thing, and if they get what they are looking for then their training is no less valid than any that have gone to Japan. Also respect should be given to those that set their dream of studying in Japan and then had the courage and good fortune to follow through with their dream.

By the way if anyone wants to put my old ass on a plane, in a coach seat, from Florida back to Japan they better bring an armed guard and restraints. I shall not go gentle in to that good flight!

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Bill Simpson
21st June 2000, 16:23
Regarding Mr. Feigenbaum's personal attack on Mr. Lowry.

Mark,

I suggest that you carefully read and read again Mr.Lowry's posts and Mr. Svinth's replies. You are way off base.

As far as your supposed command of the Spanish language, Lowry's use of the word "borrego" in this context translates to "lamb" not "simpletons" as you so imply. Once again read the post carefully.

The "land of doubtful water". Yep, sure is. How many of those traveling to Mexico have enjoyed "Montezuma's Revenge"? I know I have on several occasions.

Based upon your comments, it is obvious you don't know much about Mr. Lowry or his background.

Best,

Bill Simpson

Dave Lowry
21st June 2000, 17:26
Dear Mr. Feigenbaum,
The “dictionaries” for my jocular Spanish were a native speaker from Mexico City and a non-native graduate of the U. of Mexico with more than two decades of experience teaching the language.

Borrego is the Spanish word for “lamb.” How the use of the term is insulting is beyond me. I have ordered it, using that word, in restaurants in the US, Mexico, and Spain. If those attending me were insulted, they graciously concealed their outrage and brought me what I requested: lamb.
Contrary to your imputations, I have scant knowledge of Mexico’s regions, southern, poor, or otherwise. I do make my living as a restaurant critic, however, and these analogies come readily for me. In this case, though, you apparently missed the original post in which it was another reader who suggested the analogy, one to which I was merely responding and enlarging.

You make roughly half a dozen references to my “assumptions” on sundry topics. This is flattering. But I’m wagering most readers care less about my assumptions or your observations on same than they do about sharing facts and well-reasoned opinions.

I shall take to heart your admonition that I not consider myself different than others posting here—save for the singular distinction I have of being able to recite the lyrics of “Beyond the Sea” in English, Japanese, and the original French.

Cordially,

Walker
21st June 2000, 20:08
Dave,
Is multiple language recital of “Beyond the Sea” koryu or gendai? Obviously, though, it is, undoubtably, drunken waza.

Michael Becker
21st June 2000, 21:50
'Snob. a shoemaker, shoemaker's apprentice, cobbler: a townsman: a person of ordinary or low rank: an ostentatious vulgarian: a blackleg: one who makes himself ridiculous or odious by the value he sets on social standing or rank, by his fear of being ranked too low and by his different behaviour towards different classes'.

The above is taken from the 'Chambers English Dictionary', which may be considered on a par with the Oxford English Dictionary-not that it matters. Nor does it make it any better than Websters on any other dictionary. Unless you want to get snobby about it.

Doug Daulton
21st June 2000, 22:45
What to say that hasn't been said?

Well, I considered quoting Rodney King ... "Can't we all just get along" or something to that effect. However I reconsidered when I realized that on some of the sub-issues on this thread there is no reason for folks to "get along". Certainly, I am just another schlep adding my two cents, but here it is ...

Adding Larry Bieri and Dave Lowry and subtracting Chuck Clark (by his own admission), Mr. Svinth's initial list represents the very few people I consider to be legitimate exponents of koryu in the US. I must admit that my point of view comes from personal study, albeit limited and long-distance as is the case with Chuck Clark, under Phil Relnick and Larry Bieri and practice with Diane and Meik Skoss and Dave Lowry (all very, very much my sempai). If memory serves ... during conversations outside of practice, all of these folks have spoken with confidence and regard for the skills and knowledge of Mssrs. Amdur, Chambers and Armstrong.

Conceivably, these folks could be treating me like the proverbial mushroom ... keeping me in the dark and feeding me ... ahem ... manure. Not one of these folks have shown me scrolls of transmission or other documents of rank and title which so frequently adorn the walls of the Western (more specifically US) gendai dojo. So perhaps they are full of hot air.

However, all one has to do is watch any of them practice for five minutes to know without question that they know what they are talking about. The same holds true for Mr. Amdur, who I only briefly met but had the great pleasure of watching demonstrate the two koryu which he studies and teaches. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding.

In addition to their physical skills, most of these folks have made it their business to research the history and traditions of the koryu. Furthermore, with the possible exception of Mr. Lowry, I understand that each of these folks is a direct peer or junior of Donn Draeger, the Jackie Robinson/Lafcadio Hearn of Japanese martial arts in general and the koryu in particular.

While none of them speak of Mr. Draeger as if he were a god, it is crystal clear, in my experience, that they take very, very seriously their roles as stewards of their respective arts and heirs to work begun by Draeger.

So if one of these folks elects to comment on the legitimacy of someone's lineage or the veracity of someone's claims of alleged "sokeship", I am confident that they speak with authority and do not take lightly the role of "debunker of personal mythos" or "tengu-slayer".

Speaking from a position of authority is not snobbery ... it is authority ... plain and simple. Let's accept that fact and move on to other discussions.

That said, the koryu are populated by human beings, not gods and goddesses. So like any human endeavor, there is the risk of arrogance and snobbery amongst it's practitioners and teachers. Thus far, I've seen no evidence of it among the folks mentioned here.

As to Mr. Svinth's second list, the fact that I have not spoken of any of it's members should not be seen as disrespect for these folks. I simply have never met any of these folks and am in no position to comment.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS: Kudos to Earl on his clever and classic "press release". It brought a great sense of levity to this heady discussion. I nearly laughed my self silly (not that it's that difficult for me to do so). :D

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-21-2000 at 04:50 PM]

MarkF
22nd June 2000, 08:10
However, may feel incomplete and some believe their training has less merit because of this. Therefore, they cast aspirins upon those that have.

Mr. Hooker,
I do not know if this was justa typo, but your medical presription to "cast aspirins upone those that have" may prove to be the Rx of the koryu generation, as opposed to those who really did study "koryu" but didn't call it that simply because it wasn't necessary. I, for one. applaud your advice. Being a pharmacist, let me say that you may have missed your true calling.;)

Mr. Lowry,
Thank you for responding, as that was the real purpose of my post. In the first go round, you waited some 79 posts to air your opinions of the peons of the world who may have been simple judoka for nearly forty years. While I looked forward to your responses, they were all very disappointing. Why? Because you made general assumptions based on (assuming all members of this board were lurking) some four hundred or so people who have one thing in common: budo, bujutsu, or, as someone I respect recently explained, that these terms are on a continuum of sorts. My point is we didn't need a point. An opinion would be nice, and a nice discussion on that opinion would be warranted. However, you chose to go on and on and on, based on an analogy in which you decided we needed to know just what you like in the way of Mexican Cooking. That was my point. I just got the feeling from you that all of us must be able to fit within your own skin. Well, sometimes you don't get what you ask Santa for. I did apologize for any remarks which disturbed anyone, but I do appreciate the fact that this time around, you are taking the time to consider everyone, and not just yourself and a handful of others like you. I, for one, am just dandy where I am, although if Japan were on my itinerary, I would want to study as much as possible on the culture and the language before going, and if the apparently magical koryu teacher did not appear, I would at least have far more than that on my plate to consider.

Again, thank you.

Sincerely,

Joseph Svinth
22nd June 2000, 09:15
Margaret -- The analogy to classes is a pet peeve of mine, namely people commonly comparing training in budo/koryu/whatever to boot camp. The reason is that "boot camp" properly applies only to US Navy and US Marine Corps recruit training, two very different programs that have changed significantly over time. Koryu supposedly do not change, but the difference between "Full Metal Jacket" and the current Crucible program are profound. Furthermore, even were this not the case, in recruit training they pay you to treat you as they wish; in the MA normally you pay them to treat you as they wish. And most significantly, in boot camp they typically assign five instructors to live with you 24-7, and the goal is to build a team rather than the individual. To me, these represent enormous conceptual differences.

Don -- Snobs isn't the right word for the people you describe.

Mr. Daulton -- If everyone wrote as thoughtfully as you (myself no doubt included), then this thread would have died a hundred posts back. For even if I disagreed with what you said (and I do not), well, you stated what was based on personal observation, what was hearsay, and what was opinion.

All -- A moderator hint. After you post an entry (any entry, anywhere), go back and reread it before leaving, pretending that this were the first time you'd ever seen it. Then, if you see something that needs fixing, use the edit feature to fix it. For example, I just added a clause to a sentence that could otherwise have been misconstrued. If you meant to push the limits, fine, but if the error was simply haste, well, it's better to fix in private than apologize in public.




[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 06-22-2000 at 12:24 AM]

Dennis Hooker
22nd June 2000, 16:09
[Mr. Hooker,
I do not know if this was justa typo, but your medical presription to "cast aspirins

Ak yes, fat little fingers and a dull little mind makes typos a constant source of asumement for many, that's me.
Dennis

upone those that have" may prove to be the Rx of the koryu generation, as opposed to those who really did study "koryu" but didn't call it that simply because it wasn't necessary. I, for one. applaud your advice. Being a pharmacist, let me say that you may have missed your true calling.;)


Again, thank you.

Sincerely, [/B][/QUOTE]

Margaret Lo
22nd June 2000, 17:29
Originally posted by Popie

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it's a duck. :)


Popie I have no idea what you are trying to say. But ducks can be prepared in an infinite number of tasty ways.

-M-

Doug Daulton
22nd June 2000, 18:43
I'll open this post with a question ... ...

Have Mr. Lowry, Mr. or Ms. Skoss (as seniors) or Mr. Hartman or myself (as juniors) or any of the other koryu folk in this forum been seen posting at any length in, for example, the Judo forum on E-budo? Moreover, have any of us been heard to cast aspersions upon judo as "elitist" and level claims of snobbery against the senior practitioners in that forum?

While I have not combed the entire Judo forum, I would venture to say the answer is no.

Why?

Well, with the exception of Chuck Clark (a senior judo man) none of us are active judoka (I think) and are in no position to speak with any authority (great or small) on the matter. We may have some general thoughts and comments on judo. But none of us would presume to talk about it with authority in the judo "house" or anywhere else for that matter.

Let me be clear, I don't think the koryu forum should be exclusive to koryu practitioners any more than I think the judo forum should be exclusive to judoka. In my opinion, the point of E-budo is to gather and intelligently discuss our respective arts ... to give the knowledgeable a place to share their knowledge and the ignorant (like me) a place where they may be enlightened.

Cross-pollenization is a great thing. In my experience, koryu study has given me new insight into my gendai practice of karatedo and Ryukyu kobudo. And, should a nage-waza question arise, I'd like to think that I could pop into the judo forum for some answers. However in doing so, I try to remember that respect given is respect earned.

So without knowing well that of which I would speak, I'd rather ask my question then keep my mouth shut and listen to the answers given. After which, I consider the reply long and hard before offering clarifying questions rather than knee-jerking into a ill-considered response because I feel offended that someone else has pointed out my own ignorance in their reply to my initial question.

Perhaps by acting this way, I appear the fool. But personally, I'd rather take that tactic than pretend to have an intelligent position on a topic I know little about and remove all doubt that I am indeed a fool by speaking weakly and clumsily on the issue at hand.

I reiterate my earlier point ... speaking with authority is not snobbery ... it is authority. Furthermore, it is ridiculous, disrespectful and patently offensive to imply that the sole reason any of these folks speak with authority and sometimes passion on the issue of koryu ... is to drive sales of their most recent book.

The intelligent and thoughtful reader should be grateful that this research is being done and made available to the public. Or, to bring the conversation full circle, if you think these writers are full of hot air/manure ... go to Japan and find out for yourself,

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

Postscripts ...

To the members of this forum:
My apologies for the length of this post and the rancor which it may exude. I simply grow weary of reading a circular debate which is ill-considered and ill-constructed. I suggest we all move on to a new topic.

To Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, Meik Skoss and Earl Hartman:
If I have presumed too much in this post and any or all of you are indeed in a position to speak with authority on judo, please accept my apologies.

To Mr. Feigenbaum:
As e-mail and forums can be a less than perfect media, I want to be clear that I wasn't singling you or your art out. Judo was selected as the foil in my post solely because I am almost 100% assured that none of the folks I mentioned is an active judoka.

To Mr. Svinth:
Thanks for your kind words. At the risk of appearing like this is an elitist, mutual admiration society :), let me say that I've very much enjoyed your posts and find http://www.ejmas.com to be a great resource.

Mr. Popie:
You wrote ...

"Martial arts are martial arts right? Why should it matter if we draw a 17th century bow or a compound bow. Both use the same process"

To which I would ask, have you ever drawn an archaic longbow? Or a modern compound bow? If so, then you should know that the two processes, while similar on the surface, are quite different, have different physical demands and result in different flight physics.

For example, the cams of a compound bow allow the shooter to draw and hold position for great lengths of time in comparison to a longbow or recurve bow. This makes the requirements of hunting with one quite different than the other. Is the goal the same? Yes ... hit and kill the target. But the techniques and application of the bow as a weapon are quite different.

Depending on the circumstance and goals the shooter, one approach may indeed be superior to the other. While I am no longer an avid hunter, my friends who are almost uniformly say that if you know how to shoot with an older style weapon (long or recurve bow) you will be a far more skilled and effective shot with a modern, compound bow.

Why? Because the demands of recurve shooting teach the shooter more patience and discipline in shot selection which, with regular practice, invariably results in a higher percentage of kills.

With this in mind, perhaps you may reconsider the koryu and their value to the gendai budo practitioner.

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-22-2000 at 12:55 PM]

Jack B
22nd June 2000, 20:52
J.Svinth wrote: "Sorry, Mr. Clark, for the mistaken identification. My sources uniformly agreed that your martial arts were as good as they came, and as a result I jumped to the conclusion that you must have been an elite koryu practitioner rather than just another gendai type."

Heheh. Joe, I like your posts. While this was undoubtedly tongue-in-cheek, I think it demonstrates where the "snobbery" impression comes from.

As far as I can tell, this whole firestorm is just the same JUTSU VS DO question all over again. It started when Donn Draeger drew the line between jutsu and do and everyone interpreted it as a Western Aristotelian dualism.

If you do a JUTSU, you still display good BUDO (or not). I never heard the expression "he has good bujutsu".

I think it's a trend thing. The last century or two, the trend was to be modern and things started to be called DO. Now, heritage and legacy are more valued and everyone wants to do JUTSU, and "gendai" is becoming a pejorative like "legacy" is in the IT world.

By the way, koryu arts ARE more rare and exclusive. Since it takes more committment to get in, it stands to reason that koryu practioners may be comparable to, say, the upper 5% of the budoka bell curve, dedication-wise. However, if 50% of 500 koryu students get really good, and only 5% of 5,000,000 budo people get really good, that means budo produces 250,000 really good budoka and koryu will produce 250. That gives you 250,250 people who have added value and depth to their lives, which is the real point, isn't it?

I'm primarily a gendai budo practitioner, so I hope the above statistical prediction is without snobbery. ;)

Jack Bieler

Doug Daulton
22nd June 2000, 21:54
Originally posted by Popie
Out of courteous and clarification incase it is a matter of importance to you, the point of my post and statement was not to pit koryu against modern arts against each other. It goes beyond this. The word "process" was used in general action and not in explicated mechanical detail. I apologized that was not clarified and initiated a forward argument. My intention of the word used was much in the same way Koryu is used here on E-budo.


Originally posted by Popie
I find it strange there is a "Koryu" site, and "Koryu" dissemination writers as far as this goes. Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?

Mr. Popie,

If your point is not to pit koryu and its exponents against other budo, why do you insist on doing so?

As for "explicated mechanical detail" and "Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?" ... well sir, the devil is, as they say, in the details. The ability to speak with authority on any topic, be it koryu or cooking, comes from having enough experience (training) with the subject to know the finer points ... the "explicated mechanical details".

It further stands to reason that if, like the koryu exponents mentioned in this thread, one has sufficent experience in both the koryu and the gendai budo,then they may be in a position to intelligently discuss the relationship of one to the other ... not as an debate exercise, but as a dialogue designed to both share and gather information. If one does not have the experience described above, then I suggest one, at the very least, refrain from disparaging those who do.


Originally posted by Popie
I say, more bluntly, some people gain from such perspectives. Which I might add these people are not so ethical. I prefer reading the life of those who head koryu's or made great achievements which are authorized by them. Not trash novels of romance, color commentaries, or the self-proclaimed experts etc. I much rather read from words written by presidents, then some hack writer making a buck.

I can only assume that you refer to Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss and Meik Skoss . Clearly, you have not read any of their work, if you had, you'd certainly realize that they are anything but hack writers. As for preferring "words written by presidents" ... pick up Koryu Bujutsu and read "The meaning of martial arts training", Meik Skoss' interview with Sawada Hanae, hanshi of Tendo-ryu. Or pick up Sword and Spirit and read "Uchidachi and Shidachi" an article by Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, a prominent menkyo kaiden of Shinto Muso-ryu Jo. I challenge you to find any works of similar import and quality in the English language. (BTW - I don't get any royalties from sales of these books :D)

I could elaborate further, but I won't. My point is simple. These folks have made it their life's work to bring the words, thoughts and teachings of the most senior exponents of the koryu to the West-bound practitioners of all budo ... like you and me. Intelligently question and challenge them if you must, but do not bite the hand that would feed you if you let it.

As for personal gain ... do they sell books? Yes. Do they gain when a book is sold? Certainly. Do you draw a check from your job? There is no sin or arrogance in gaining from the fruits off one's labor. In this case, the persons in question have made considerable personal and, I assume, financial sacrifices to earn the knowledge they now choose to share with us. Here again I can tell you from personal, albeit limited, experience that none of these writers live lavishly.

In fact, when you consider how small the market for their knowledge really is, it is surprising they make a living at it, much less get rich as you would imply. Aside from their impressive knowledge, they are quite average and everyday people (no slight intended). Mr. Lowry and the Skosses do not sit around on their yachts in the Hamptons sipping Dom Perignon (sp?) and chuckling to one another about the millions they earned by pitching their books on E-budo. (If they were, my percentage would be around $200K year ... oops I said I didn't get a royalty before didn't I? Oh well, I guess I let the cat out of the bag. ;) )

As to the issue of being "self-proclaimed experts", I restate my earlier point that while I've seen no kakemono (scrolls) from any of these folks, I've seen their waza and that in and of itself speaks volumes. I am quite certain that if you were to travel to Japan and ask the headmasters of their respective schools, they would be happy to confirm the veracity of their claims. Again, I say ... authority is not arrogance or snobbery ... it is authority. If you have information which soundly refutes their claims, then present it to this forum. Else, please let it be.

Finally, your vague claim that "these people are not so ethical" ... is at the very least ill-considered. There is a difference between fact, opinion and subtly offering one's opinion veiled as fact. If you accuse people of being unethical, at least take a moment to clearly explain your reasoning and provide demonstrable, supporting citations of the unethical acts. Were it to exist, I am sure everyone here would find such documentation very interesting and enlightening. Else, I again suggest you let it be.


Originally posted by Popie
Also I applaud your call for intelligence discussions. But, should we limit discussions of only those that what makes us comfortable, or in praise or defense of those we admire, and what those who are just back slapping posts? In this thought I was reminded to Mr. Undmark's thread titled "claiming true Koryu." A post which no one answered him, something he predicted. :( His point is well taken.
[/B]

I am not the least bit uncomfortable with this discussion. Challenge and debate are at the root of progress and learning. However, for the debate to be of value, it should be based on fact and not supposition. My posts are not so much in praise of Dave Lowry or the Skosses as they are a matter of setting the record straight and requesting some genuine discussion and debate, not simply ill-formed flames.

Truth be told, I have better things to do with my time than defend these people. Nor do they genuinely require my defense as they are quite capable of doing so themselves. However, the hackles on my neck raise when I see good people torn apart for doing something they love and helping other people along the way. It makes matters worse when the arguments are weak and full of half-facts. This not only demeans the parties involved, but the entire process of dialogue and learning as well.

Upon review, I must admit that my string of posts will most likely cast me in a light of an arrogant, snobbish koryu practitioner. This was most certainly not my intention.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I tried to read Mr. Undmark's post, because the header appeared interesting. However, the message I receive is essentially blank. Are we to chime in there and say "I do this koryu or that koryu" and "I've been doing so for XX years?" Please clarify.


[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-22-2000 at 05:41 PM]

Doug Daulton
22nd June 2000, 22:00
Originally posted by Jack B
By the way, koryu arts ARE more rare and exclusive. Since it takes more committment to get in, it stands to reason that koryu practioners may be comparable to, say, the upper 5% of the budoka bell curve, dedication-wise. However, if 50% of 500 koryu students get really good, and only 5% of 5,000,000 budo people get really good, that means budo produces 250,000 really good budoka and koryu will produce 250. That gives you 250,250 people who have added value and depth to their lives, which is the real point, isn't it?

I'm primarily a gendai budo practitioner, so I hope the above statistical prediction is without snobbery. ;)

Jack Bieler


Mr. Bieler,

I like the statistics and the conclusion. If these 250,250 folks are adding value to their lives, then in in my opinion, that is one of the keys. Thanks for adding this perspective.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

Doug Daulton
23rd June 2000, 00:00
Originally posted by Popie

I will leave with this thought. Being Koryu or not seems to important to many despite their claims, and how well their eggs are done. Martial arts are martial arts right? Why should it matter if we draw a 17th century bow or a compound bow. Both use the same process, etc. Both at their time of inception were the best design made. Well it matters to some for reason and definitions that heated this thread. there are people who make their living off (recently or sometime in their lives)the idea of Koryu and have an vested interest in the discussion. I think they keep Koryu alive in this matter 'cause is important to them as they are recognized for such, and/or for increase in product sales. I find it strange there is a "Koryu" site, and "Koryu" dissemination writers as far as this goes. Who is this stuff for anyway? I am sure those who train don't need it?

Sorry Not Interest In This Flame War:(



Mr. Popie,

I bring your attention to the quote above because it was you who threw down the gauntlet, not I.

It was and is not my intention to touch off a flame war, rather I felt the need to respond to your initial question and the ensuing back and forth has lead us to this place.

If you are no longer interested in continuing this discussion, then let us consider it closed.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I must be incredibly dense, because I still don't get the reference to Mr. Undmark's post. Can someone please help a drowning man?

Chuck Clark
23rd June 2000, 00:10
Hi Doug,(and the rest of you folks)

It seems to me that Mr. Popie likes to jerk as many chains as possible just to hear the rattle. Certainly nothing of much import is coming out of this.

I have an ex-wife who used to say things to get some drama going or hurt feelings and then would say, "You ought to know better than to take me seriously." Yeah, well...

I suspect that this topic will be the last thing on our minds as we bow in at our next practice.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton
23rd June 2000, 00:24
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
I suspect that this topic will be the last thing on our minds as we bow in at our next practice.

Chuck,

Well said. Thanks for the reality check.

Doug Daulton

Nathan Scott
23rd June 2000, 02:27
Mr. Popie wrote:



I am refraining from answering any posts with the intent to flame me by calling into question my opinion or supports in a manner of stratagems that are obviously and blatantly sophomoric.

What? Mr. Popie, no offense intended, but I for one am having alot of trouble following the mindset of your posts.

May I suggest that you choose phrasing's that are perhaps a bit more comfortable for you, and as Mr. Svinth mentioned subtly, double check your posts and consider editing them if they don't make sense. Not that we're all briliant writers here, but I've taken to passing over your posts regardless of how deep the content may be because it's giving me a headache trying to follow your writing.

Also, FWIW, if you really are interested in learning (I know I am), it might be a better strategy to lurk in the background and read for a while (until you feel there is an educated point of view that can contribute to the thread) than to pipe in with filler after every other post; for two reasons:

1) I suspect that people are not reading your posts with alarming frequency as things stand now.

2) If you create unnecessary "noise" on a board, you will scare off those that might have something insightful to say. These types of people are very sensitive to noise! Then the board will be like so many other boards out there where people have nothing to say but they say it anyway. Shhhhh..... be vewy quiet.

I hope you take these points into consideration, because if you think about it, there has to be a reason why everyone is picking on you and not on the other posters.

Good luck on your decision,




[Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-22-2000 at 08:32 PM]

Michael Becker
23rd June 2000, 02:27
The reason I look at E-Budo is to learn about different martial arts and hopefully have some friendly discourse with fellow enthusiasts. I assume that I am not in a minority in this.

I have also purchased and read most of the books written by Dave Lowry and Diane Skoss. Even though I dont practice a Koryu, I feel that I have benefitted enormously from what I have read. I am very grateful that they have chosen to put their experiences into print. That is my own opinion. If somebody wants to read other books then that is their choice. I certainly dont make any judgement on that.

The fact is that if an intrested person wants to get reputable information in the English language on Koryu, then the only work that I know of is by Donn Draeger, Dave Lowry, Diane Skoss, Karl F.Friday and people known to them.
There may be others, but they are keeping themselves to themselves.

More often than not, if you want to study a martial art at its highest level, then you have to go to the source. That is not limited to Japanese martial arts. Serious martial artists in many different styles have travelled across the world to sample the cultures that created the arts.

In my personal experience, the best martial artists that I have met have visited the countries of origin of the styles that they practice. My Tai Chi Chuan instructor has visited Wudang moutain and the Chen family village even though he did not learn his art in these locations. The people that I learned Malaysian Seni Silat from studied in Malaysia. I have met Judoka and Karateka that went to Japan because they beleaved that they would benefit from the experience. It cannot therefore seem outlandish to suggest that Koryu might be best understood from going to Japan.

Saying the above, I know of two highly respected Jujutsu practitioners in England that learned their arts, from Japanese and western instructors, in England. Both gentlemen are qualified instuctors in traditional styles.

At the end of the day, martial arts are a human creation, ( yes, I know about the Tengu stories ), passed on to other humans. The location in itself is not the most significant thing-the teacher is. But if you want to understand what the teacher is trying to tell you, it is important to understand where he or she is coming from. That is you have to have an appreciation of the culture that shaped the school. That appreciation is often best gained at the source.

Koryu seem to be at a stage where Judo and Karate were forty years ago. Instructors in the west are so few that it is neccessary to go to Japan to study. That may change in time, though it has to be remembered that to gain a teaching license in the Koryu takes appreciably longer than in many other martial arts.

Koryu may never become very widespread because they are unlikely to be as popular as other martial arts. That is not elitism but rather personal choice.

Maybe it is time for the moderator to close this down.
Never has so much been said about so little.

23rd June 2000, 04:09
With all due respect to Diane and Meik Skoss, Dave Lowry, Karl Friday, Donn Draeger, etc., I do not think that only legitimate koryu practitioners are capable of researching and writing about koryu. I have enjoyed many of their books and articles. However, one of the best books I've ever read on koryu by far is "Armed Martial Arts of Japan" by G. Cameron Hurst. According to the bio info, he is an exponent of Tae Kwon Do, a Korean art, and Okinawan karate, certainly neither of which could possibly be considered koryu.

[Edited by budokai on 06-22-2000 at 10:12 PM]

MarkF
23rd June 2000, 10:09
I must agree with Don as well. One of the best writers of judo history would not know uchi mata if it came up and bit him, and I think that is true here, as well. No, to be a writer of koryu, you first, need to be able to write, you must get the facts as you find them, and then you must have passion. Are there writers who can write about MA who are not MA? Certainly. Passion for writing and passion for doing are necessary, but not always at thesame time. Have enough passion, and you can recreate the world. Sometimes, you find it in places you never thought to look. The trouble is, that not enough are willing to search.

Michael Becker
23rd June 2000, 11:02
I wouldnt dispute that you dont have to neccessarily practice something to write about it. However, what makes the work of Donn Draeger and other Koryu practitioners so valuable is that it is written by people with an intimate understanding of the subject. The research that they have worked from is primary rather than secondary.

Also, I dont think that someone that does not practice a particular martial art can really understand the fine detail. This is particularly the case when a school contains 'inside the door' knowledge ( secret techniques and oral instruction ). Unless you actually practice some schools methods you will never be privy to any advanced teachings. This I know from personal experience in the Chinese martial arts.

A good example would be The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi. Dave Lowry wrote an informative article several years ago on this book. One of the points that he made was that the book was a text written for a student of Musashi. There are references in the book to various sword techniques that 'outsiders' would not have the slightest clue about. I have read the book myself, but my understanding of it is unlikely to come close to that of a Koryu practitioner.Many of the scrolls in the Koryu are deliberately vague to prevent outsiders gaining any understanding. You have to practice the method to really gain an understanding on it.

So, when it comes down to it, when I want the best source of information in the English language on Koryu, I will get a book written by someone who has been there and has experienced them.

Diane Skoss
23rd June 2000, 17:45
Hi Doug and Michael,

Thanks! I've been trying to think of a way to say some of what you've both said, but found it impossible (since I appear to stand as one of the accused snobs--I must admit that it rankles, since I was raised by a farmer's daughter and really despise snobbery) to do so with any grace.

For the record, Doug, Meik is practicing judo--mostly because he enjoys the company of his training mates, and because it keeps him in shape, and he flat out enjoys it. I don't think he's getting ready to write a book about it though :)!

Cheers!


[Edited by Diane Skoss on 06-23-2000 at 11:55 AM]

MarkF
23rd June 2000, 19:47
Hi, Michael,
I didn't meant imply that someone could write about the nuances of an art, but one could write the history and its use,eg, in today's society, have all the facts in the world and put out, if not accurate in the doing, it can be accurate as to when, who, what, where, and why. Another may be how one becomes accepted to a particular ryuha and why some are not. I realize to write about any art, and that goes for the cultural arts as well, such as music, painting, and, well, writing. One does not have to know a note of music to play it either, and most people who do write about it, do not play or paint. That was my point. Of coure is one is going to write about something by experience it totally, then one would have to become immersed in it, but to write about something in which you have an informed opinion takes time and research of the thing.

Nathan Scott
23rd June 2000, 20:54
Mr. Popie,

Just thought I'd try to help.



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 06-23-2000 at 03:06 PM]

Jeff Cook
25th June 2000, 17:36
I am coming into this discussion quite late, and I have not read every post, but I did read the first few, and I think I have scanned enough of the others to make a few remarks that I think are pertinent.

Actually, I would like to make an observation, and maybe the folks that are intent on self-improvement may take a close look to see if this applies.

I have met and got to know some folks, both Japanese and non-Japanese, who are practitioners/masters of koryu arts.

Without exception, the SNOBS have all been westerners that deplored the fact that they were not born Japanese. The snobs are trying so hard to justify their "ownership" of the koryu by grasping at things Japanese that really have nothing to do with the spirit of their art.

This inevitably invokes racial views and prejudice, but apparently not from native Japanese folks who study koryu, but instead from Westerners studying koryu (although this has not always been true).

Relax your grip. The learning process is a life-long endeavor. Learn the culture of your art. But don't let your study of the culture overwhelm your study of the art, and the subsequent self-improvement that should be liberating, instead of stifling and restrictive.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

George Ledyard
25th June 2000, 19:28
I have some direct experience in this area. I am a long time practitioner of Aikido. It is the foundation of my training and my great and abiding love. I was truly fortunate that I found a great teacher in Saotome Sensei through pure good luck.

I have also been fortunate enough to have some little exposure to the classical arts and some of the few American teachers qualified to teach them. I was blessed by the having the opportunity to study Buko Ryu Naginata and Araki Ryu under Ellis Amdur Sensei for several years. I derived tremendous benefit from the exposure and it changed my Aikido practice substantially. But I never attained any level of certification and have not been able to continue my studies in the area much as I would have liked to. Nor do I believe that Amdur sensei was in the end happy with the experiment he made with teaching his initial group of Americans when he came back from Japan.

I completely understand his dissatisfaction with the results. The circumstances of the training did not produce the proper absorption of the heart of the Ryu we were studying. In my case I was definitely approaching the practice from the standpoint of what I could gain from it in my overall development not from the standpoint of in a sense of having my practice be defined by the Ryu. Anyway the attitude wasn't the right one from the standpoint of properly transmitting the two styles.

So now we hit the real crux of the matter. Do I maintain that through my exposure to these arts I attained anything more than a very superficial understanding of Ryu? No! Does that mean that what I did get from the training is without value? Depends on your point of view. From the standpoint of preserving the Ryu intact for another generation, as it should be, my dabbling was irrelevant. I play no part in that. From the standpoint of my own overall practice it was extremely valuable. The insights I received through participation in this training with such a wonderful teacher, as Amdur Sensei has been invaluable to me. But it is my karma to make my contrubution, what I give back to the art as Lowry Sensei has mentioned, in the Aikido sphere.

People in our culture desperately want to get validation for what they do and who they (think) they are. They turn to all sorts of external sources to get that validation. We are at the point in our culture where we have even attempted to legislate that validation. We are all equal, all just fine; no one is better than any body else.

But this attitude is just a reflection of our insecurities. In relation to this discussion it is simply a fact that really understanding a Koryu in an authentic manner requires duplicating as closely as possible the broad spectrum of experience that needs to comprise the training for it to carry the techniques and values to the next generation without distortion. The teachers of Koryu who point this out are branded as elitist and snobs. But that is simply a bunch of sour grapes. Folks don't want to be told they can't do or be something. It's un-American. Well get over it. The only way to get what they have is to do what they have done to get it. Give up a huge part of your life and spend twenty, thirty, forty years of it immersing yourself in a way of life that is fast disappearing in its own homeland. In most cases this requires going to Japan but not absolutely always. Angier Sensei of the Yanagi Ryu is recognized as a legitimate teacher and he did it training with a Japanese teacher in New York State. But his experience was fairly unique.

So unless you are willing to make the sacrifice, you CAN'T DO IT! Get over it and stop whining. You don't need somebody else's validation to have your own practice. So you're not doing Koryu, so what. Does that mean you can't study sword? Does that mean you can't learn to fight? Does that fact drain the legitimacy out of your practice? Of course not. Your practice needs to come from your heart. You're an American. Japanese teachers can give you information and perspective that you can't get from within our own culture but that is not going to make you Japanese (thank God). Just as Buddhism moved from India, to China, SE Asia, and finally to Japan and in each case transformed itself, Japanese martial arts are going to transform or die. There is real value in preserving the arts as they have been passed down but the number of people who have made it their business to do so is quite small. They should be treated as a wonderful resource. That doesn't mean that because you can't be them your practice is diminished. You don't have to be from a Koryu to know that there is a tremendous amount of garbage passing for martial arts out there. I think it is nothing short of pathetic that some teachers such as one we have out here in the Northwest here have to invent credentials to give themselves legitimacy (he claims to be an Aikido 8th Dan) or invent associations with other styles as if that is required to make it real. Or those that don't consider it Aikido if they can't demsonstrate that O-sensei was doing some technique in the year 1950. What a bunch of insecure people! What a mess of ego going on.

Do what you do and do it sincerely and well. Train hard and use your common sense about what you are practicing. Find a good teacher that treats you respectfully and is open about what he does and has a genuine desire to help you in your training. Stop worrying about whether you are as cool as the Koryu guys. They are unique. They are very knowledgeable. They are very good at what they do. So what? You waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince yourself and others that you can be just as important as they are. Get a life and find your own way. Unless you want to try and duplicate what they have done you don't have any choice anyway


[Edited by George Ledyard on 06-25-2000 at 01:42 PM]

Aaron L. Seay
25th June 2000, 23:28
Mr. Ledyard writes:
"Stop worrying about whether you are as cool as the Koryu guys. They are unique. They are very knowledgeable. They are very good at what they do. So what? You waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince yourself and others that you can be just as important as they are. Get a life and find your own way"

If the original question was, why do the Koryu people think they're so cool, then I guess the answer is, because everyone else thinks they are. 95% of the posters here seem to agree with that assertion, and if the definition of cool is that which everyone thinks is cool, then I guess it must be. That's ok, My opionions are usually in the minority.


But, again, I'll say that I think Mr. Ledyard's arguments are based on the assumption that "that's what all of us want". Why is it so hard to believe that some of us might actually like what we do, and how we do it, and where?

Speaking of Aikido; I started out in Aikido, and I was quite snobby about it, along with everyone else. All the Aikidoka were just convinced that what they were doing was such an enlightened martial art, and so far evolved above the ugly violence found in the other arts.

When I spent a (short) amount of time studying Brazilian JuJutsu, the common attitude there was that the only people NOT studying with them were the ones who just haven't opened their eyes yet.

Even now, I'm still convinced that the Art I study and the teachers I have are the best. Maybe there's a fine line between snobbery and ethnocentrism (or, the MA equivalent of that). Everyone thinks that their race is the best, their country, their state, their religion...I see no reason why this should be any different for Martial Arts.

Personally speaking, I love history, but I have no desire to be a professional historian. The Koryu guys seem to be Caretakers of Ancient Traditions...and if that's their calling in life, great, I'm sure that everyone can benefit from their efforts. But, it would be a non-sequitor to assume that that's what all of us are aspiring to be.

We were admonished earlier to think of MA in terms of not what we can get out of it, but what we can do for it...a variation of the Kennedy sound bite. But, I think everyone at least starts off with selfish reasons "Ooh, this looks cool, think I'll try it out" and then later as you mature you start to feel the weight of responsibility for transmitting what you know. I'm sure when my teacher ends up in the nursing home I'll be faced with that giri (if I'm good enough). Until then, I'll just keep trying to learn as much as I can in preparation for that time...

Doug Daulton
26th June 2000, 03:27
Originally posted by Aaron L. Seay
But, again, I'll say that I think Mr. Ledyard's arguments are based on the assumption that "that's what all of us want". Why is it so hard to believe that some of us might actually like what we do, and how we do it, and where?

The points of Mr. Seay and Mr. Ledyard are well taken.

To clarify a point from my previous posts, I don't think the koryu are necessarily of any greater inherent value than the gendai budo. I simply think they offer a different value than the gendai budo. Not better, just different.

As Mr. Ledyard suggested, I think the gendai practitioner can enrich his/her practice by the study of the koryu. And in turn, I think the koryu can and have benefited from the growth and popularity of the gendai budo. So, like it or not, there appears to be a symbiotic relationship 'twixt the two.

Perhaps the issue of snobbery springs, not from the actions of individuals, but rather a simple "generation gap". Often, like the opinions of our grandparents, the koryu (and their exponents) are misinterpreted a stagnant or dead ... having no modern relevance or application. And the gendai budo, like upstart teenagers, are often seen as wet-behind-the-ears and reckless I make these distinctions with affection and respect for both. Are these perspectives accurate? Yes. To some extent I believe they are.

Like elders and teens, the koryu and the gendai seem to clash, thinking they have little or nothing in common ... the gendai think the koryu are trying to oppress them by holding them to dying, antiquated ideals ... the koryu think the gendai are too "big for their britches", unwilling to listen to the counsel of years and lacking anything of real value to say or do. Both "sides" want the other to see the value and strength of their positions. Both want the other to respect them. Both think that they do not need the other. In budo, as in life ... I think this last point could not be farther from the truth.

In my opinion, the serious gendai budoka need the koryu because, like our grandparents, if we listen and trust the koryu we can learn some of life's (or in this case combat's) toughest lessons and hardest truths by learning from the past ... from the mistakes and lessons of the generations who've gone before us. On the other hand, as many have pointed out, the koryu in many cases are dying arts. To stay alive, they may require the exuberance, vitality and popularity of the gendai budo to bring serious practitioners to their doorstep, and possibly into the fold.

Does this mean that practitioners of gendai budo should be looked down on by those of koryu? Absolutely not. If all a person wants to do is gendai budo, then have at it. To paraphrase Jack Bieler's post ... if they add value and depth to their lives ... that's the real point, isn't it? By the same token, gendai practitioners should not look with disdain on koryu practitioners as adherents to old and useless ways. In deed, the assumption that the stewardship of old ways is foolish or useless is, in and of itself, a youthful form of snobbery.

Maybe this "generation gap" is a bad analogy. At the very least, it is a rough one. However, I tend to think it fits. Furthermore I tend to see myself more as the child of the grandparent and the parent of the teen (again a rough analogy) ... caught between two generations which really have much more in common than either would like to admit. Perhaps, that is the position most of us find ourselves in?

Each of us certainly has a right to practice as, when and where we chose, without worry about the recriminations of others, no matter how well intentioned. Along the way, we can choose to learn and grow from one another (koryu and gendai). And in doing so, I believe both "generations" will be more healthy, sound and robust for the effort.

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-25-2000 at 09:40 PM]

George Ledyard
26th June 2000, 03:29
Mr. Seay,
I never meant to infer that everybody is concerned about this issue. But the fact that these discussions about whether you can or can't do classical martoial arts wothout living in Japan etc. are unending. That indicates that there are a number of people who are worried about the issue.

I am not a classical martial artist. I am not on one side or the other in this. I agree with the qualified exponents of the classical styles that you need to do certain things in order to really absorb the training in the way it was meant to be. At the same time I don't feel the need to negate my own practice because I didn't do classical martial arts in Japan. Koryu folks who want to feel superior can if they want. Doesn't effect my practice.

When I said find your own way, it sounds to me like that is what you are attempting to do. Good luck in your training.

Undmark, Ulf
26th June 2000, 14:51
Originally posted by Doug Daulton

Sincerely,

Doug Daulton

PS - I tried to read Mr. Undmark's post, because the header appeared interesting. However, the message I receive is essentially blank. Are we to chime in there and say "I do this koryu or that koryu" and "I've been doing so for XX years?" Please clarify.

[/B]

I am sorry I didn't read this post earlier and if any of those who have read it still wonders I believe I should explain... since I edited that post.

My thread "Claiming Koryu" (or similar) was not directly connected to this thread, but it certainly inspired...

The idea of that thread was just to collect some information on those ryuha wich are most commonly refered to in discussions on "true" Koryu. That is, since there are different takes on what is "true" Koryu (origin, period of time, content etc), it would certainly be interesting to know how many can actually (more or less) separate facts from legend...and by, atleast, dating some of the densho of those ryuha mentioned, try to establish a date of foundation. That is, how far back (by examining densho, manuscripts, diaries and registers) can we really date a ryuha like, for instance, Maniwa Nen ryu?
They claim to have a lineage dating back to Soma Shiro Yoshimoto (Jion), but is this a fact? I certainly do not believe that their densho are older than those of Shinto ryu. What is the common knowledge of the most often mentioned Koryu?

By finding the answer to this question, I was also hoping to find some new information about how much is left of the densho from sengoku jidai, and from what ryuha.

Now, this is not common knowledge...so I really didn't expect many answers, and deleted/edited that post after a while.

Sorry for the topic breaker...

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

Dennis Hooker
26th June 2000, 15:20
The following is my personal observation and by no means reflects on those persons spoken of in this tread. I do not know most of them personally except for Chuck Clark Sensei whom I hold in the highest regard.

This topic has become quite convoluted, that not withstanding I am going to stir the pot a little more. Many of my contemporaries, peers and elders seemed for a long time to be looking for a since a culture and history to connect with. They were looking for something to part of, that had history, honor and courage associated with it. A sense of belonging if you will. Some of my friends had to travel to far-off places and be among strangers to find a gist of home and purpose. Particularly after the Veit Nam experience many of my friends found a need to belong that was denied most of us here in the United States. This was not limited to vet’s but to the civilian population as well, and to the next generation following us was given a since of displacement and longing.

To some this journey led to Japan where there was known to be a sub culture, within which a tradition a history, honor and courage was to be found. An added bonus was the hint of self-awareness and tranquility available to one if the right teachers were found and the correct amount of self sacrifice give. So they went, and some were satisfied and some were not. Those that found satisfaction now live their lives knowing who they are and confidant in what they are doing. This is no mean thing; it is indeed rare among those of our ilk. Some people find the confidence that goes along with such qualities unsettling, and many times read that confidence as arrogance.

Some of us have a sense, or knowledge,of the history of who we are and where we came from, and have not found it particularly necessary to seek further validation because we were, and are satisfied with that.

My family connection in America goes back to the mid 1500’s to Thomas Hooker who is considered by many to have played the role of John the Baptist for Thomas Jefferson in the sense that he laid the foundation for American republican democracy. Although we were poor as children we always had a since of who we were. Many of my friends could not trace their family back further than their grandparents, and because of that, they latter in their life sought out a culture with roots. Some of us had a connection, some of us found a connection, and some are still looking for a connection.

This is just an observation from a fellow that has been around for a while and is most assuredly not scientific.

Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Chuck Clark
26th June 2000, 15:32
Dennis,

I agree with you. Many of the folks that I've grown up with in budo practice had no strong connections to family, etc. I know that I always felt like a stranger or alien in the area where I was growing up and the budo group was where I felt comfortable and accepted. Our values seemed similar and we developed a trust on the mat that we didn't have with others.

Come to think of it, I still feel that way.

Later,

Doug Daulton
26th June 2000, 15:37
Oops - duplicate post

[Edited by Doug Daulton on 06-26-2000 at 09:39 AM]

Doug Daulton
26th June 2000, 15:37
Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
Now, this is not common knowledge...so I really didn't expect many answers, and deleted/edited that post after a while.

Sorry for the topic breaker...[/B]

Mr. Undmark,

Thanks for the clarification! I was lost because the post is now empty or so it appears.

Thanks again,

Doug Daulton

Jack B
26th June 2000, 17:32
Each of us chooses the martial art(s) we practice out of all the martial arts in the world. Of course, we think the arts we do are the best; if we didn't, we'd be doing something else!

There is a saying that one must seek enlightenment with the same urgency as a man whose hair is on fire. If you cannot have what you want, by all means, want what you have.

Margaret Lo
26th June 2000, 17:54
error-sorry

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-26-2000 at 11:58 AM]

Margaret Lo
26th June 2000, 17:57
Originally posted by Jack B
Each of us chooses the martial art(s) we practice out of all the martial arts in the world. Of course, we think the arts we do are the best; if we didn't, we'd be doing something else!



Not so Jack. I quite love what I do, but I don't think shotokan karate is the best and only thing in the world. I only think that it is best for me as martial arts go.

I also think it is important to look at other martial arts and understand what they have to offer and not be blinkered by love of one's own system.

To stay on topic: This is why I feel that the koryu arts are so valuable. Many aspects of karate cannot be properly understood without knowing the context in which certain techniques originated, and that context included weapon arts - though I recognize that differences must be substantial between Japanese vs Okinawan weapons.

But totally aside from their usefulness to other systems, the koryu arts to my mind, have intrinsic value as art.

-M-

[Edited by Margaret Lo on 06-26-2000 at 12:05 PM]

MarkF
27th June 2000, 08:07
Margaret Lo said:


But totally aside from their usefulness to other systems, the koryu arts to my mind, have intrinsic value as art.


With the above quote by Margaret, I think this thread be allowed a peaceful death. Koryu indeed have this value as art, as does music. This is simple enough for no one to disagree, I think.

chrismoses
16th September 2003, 19:47
Thank you Dave Lowry for the excellent article. This is a difficult area to discuss without the raising of cackles, and I appreciate hearing your take on the subject. In general I feel that the stereotype of the koryu snob is quite overdone. As with most stereotypes however, there is a grain of truth. My own experience is that of a gendai budoka. I study Aikido (the gateway drug, as some have called it) and Shinto-Ryu Iai-Battojutsu. Shinto-Ryu missed the last train to koryu-ville by 14 years, so alas we are stuck here in the gendai cars. Frankly, I’m quite happy where I am. I’m fortunate enough to live where the opportunities to study koryu are better than just about anywhere else in the States. Despite that, I feel I have all I can handle between my two (plus) arts as it is. To use your bike analogy, mine gets me everywhere I have wanted to go, and I still feel that whatever shortcomings exist are mine and not my ride’s.

I think that the concept of koryu snobbery is something of an internet phenomenon. I could be wrong here, but that’s the way it seems to me. Before all these lists and bulletin boards existed, if you knew someone who studied koryu, you probably studied with them, or at least knew them more than as an avatar on a BBS. With the spread of information on these systems, a few people have become the face of koryu, so to speak. In general I think of yourself, Meik Skoss, Karl Friday and Ellis Amdur as the face and mouth of koryu online. If then you take this small group as the voice of koryu, you get a pretty opinionated bunch. (That's a good thing mind you :-) ) Mix in a general spirit here in the states that everyone has a right to everything, and a clash is inevitable.

I really try to see both sides. I sympathize with the kid in Nebraska who desperately wants to learn koryu (or thinks he does) and is told, “I’m sorry, there simply isn’t anyone for you to train with. Find something else.” No one likes to be told that they can’t do something, but koryu cannot be learned from a book or a video any more than surgery can be learned from a correspondence course. Access to real koryu is nowhere near as common as access to literature about koryu. I think that Koryu books (and other publications like “Old School”) have done such a good job describing the koryu and their subtle facets, that in part they are to blame for the claims of snobbery.

Whether you know it or not, they/you have captured the imagination of many people who want to learn, “the real deal.” Many of these people however run into a brick wall (or so they think) when trying to find a place to study. It must feel like running into a car dealership after seeing the latest touring coupe and being told that all THEY are allowed to buy is this nice diesel sub-compact. :-( Please keep in mind that I’m not saying it IS like that, I’m saying that it must FEEL like that. What is often overlooked is that this is self imposed. Frequently the problem is location. If you really want it, and it isn’t around the corner, then you have to move. There is no other solution. It’s not terribly surprising then that the reaction would be to assume that they are dealing with snobs.

This is especially true when statements are made which are difficult to read any other way. Not long ago on a sword-arts mailing list, a student whose teacher moved was called a thief for trying to find a new school to study. Granted I’m just a gendai budoka, so I’ll “never understand” (again the idea that I’ll never get it also smacks of snobbery/ elitism) but I simply can’t see the immorality here. Especially as you mentioned, many koryu students study several arts. I would much rather the poster ask if anyone knows of another qualified teacher than start their own school (after only 2 years training) or continue their study unsupervised. Unfortunately the internet makes it all too easy for us to miss innuendo, implication and true intent. All of the koryu teachers I am acquainted with have been open, friendly and encouraging of me and my training. I have never felt that I was being looked down upon because my art missed the 1876 line in the sand.

Thanks again for your article on a very difficult subject. Your contributions to this forum make it a more valuable place. Hope this post wasn't too long or pointless, I'm generally quite hesitant about starting a thread... One never knows where it might lead.

A. Bakken
16th September 2003, 21:13
And thank *you*, Chris Moses, for a very worthwhile read. I vaguely recall reading Dave Lowry's original thread, but can't find it right now. Anyone care to provide a link?

DCPan
16th September 2003, 21:37
Originally posted by A. Bakken
And thank *you*, Chris Moses, for a very worthwhile read. I vaguely recall reading Dave Lowry's original thread, but can't find it right now. Anyone care to provide a link?


--- John Lindsey <jlindsey1@HOUSTON.RR.COM> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:12:03 -0500
> From: John Lindsey <jlindsey1@HOUSTON.RR.COM>
> Subject: New article by Dave Lowry: Bicycles and Budo,
> A look at Koryu "Snobbery"
> To: IAIDO-L@listserv.uoguelph.ca
>
> I just uploaded an exclusive article by Dave Lowry that some of you
> may be interested in:
>
> http://www.e-budo.com/html/snobb.htm
>
>
> John Lindsey

A. Bakken
17th September 2003, 01:18
Thanks. Hadn't heard about that article at all; I thought Chris Moses was referring to this thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=312). :rolleyes:

Daruma
17th September 2003, 05:25
Having Just read Mr Lowry's essay " Bicycles and Budo" i thought i would start a thread to discuss the various views and ideas contained within. I have to honestly say i found it interesting reading and i figured an interesting discussion point(maybe we can work God/Atheism into the picture too keep everyone happy!).


Some of the questions i would ask are -

How true do you feel the criticisms made are?

How much effect do cultural differences have in the accusation(is it just a lack of understanding?)

Does the closed nature of Koryu make then open to accusations of elitism and snobbery?

I have saw a few very experienced people leave E-budo, people whose knowledge would have been benefical. From my understanding they left because they felt it was'nt worth the trouble.

(Is god hiding from the wrath of Tony and Harvey in some secret Koryu?)

ghp
17th September 2003, 05:54
That Dave Lowry! ... he thinks he's so cool!


--- oh ... he is!

Mr. Pan,

Thanks for posting that link -- I'd not seen the article before. I know that Dave will not respond because you he longer posts here. I recall that particular thread -- the "straw that broke the camel's back" -- when he was called a koryu snob. We are all the more poorer now for want of Dave's learned insight.

... and Meik's ....

... and Earl's ....

... and Ellis' ....


.........................:rolleyes:sigh:rolleyes:................

--Guy

Jussi Häkkinen
17th September 2003, 07:41
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daruma
Does the closed nature of Koryu make then open to accusations of elitism and snobbery?
[QUOTE]


Of course. Why elitism and snobbery would be a bad thing, I can't see. Thing is, in many cases, koryu styles and styles from good pedigree, are equivalent to those elite gentlemen's clubs in Britain, scholarship in a respected, good name university and other such things.

For some, little elitism and snobbery is needed. I like them, for sure. If someone feels them offensive and offensive towards themselves in "modern, democratic world", it's their bad.

Walker
17th September 2003, 08:17
So Guy, does this make you a “Koryu Snob” snob? ;)

John Lindsey
17th September 2003, 08:40
2 koryu snobby threads merged into one. Lets try and keep the discussion to one thread so dear old Dave doesn't get a brain cramp chasing messages around e-budo...
:)

glad2bhere
17th September 2003, 13:27
Dear John:

I have some concerns about a few conclusions that seem to be drawn in this series of posts. True, since I practice a Korean tradition rather than Japanese I may be off-base here. What I think I am seeing, nonetheless, is actually a matter of individual behaviors being generalized to the activity. I recognize this easily because I have seen the same thing in a number of Korean traditions, and the origin has less to do with the practice of a particular Korean tradition than in the need of a practitioner to be identified as special or unique by his community. Maybe its just me, but I see less demands that a practitioner is required to espouse a certain elitist demeanor by the tradition that they practice than that the individual seems to adopt an elitist demeanor BECAUSE he believes practicing a certain tradition makes him special. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Mike B. Johnson
17th September 2003, 15:46
Hi,

Posted here by Mr Power,

"Mr. Pan,

Thanks for posting that link -- I'd not seen the article before. I know that Dave will not respond because you he longer posts here. I recall that particular thread -- the "straw that broke the camel's back" -- when he was called a koryu snob. We are all the more poorer now for want of Dave's learned insight.

... and Meik's ....

... and Earl's ....

... and Ellis' ...."


_____________


....and Toby Threadgill.....

5 very qualified people no longer posting here regularly.

I have only met Mr Threadgill and Mr Amdur personally. I didn't pick up any snobbery from these two gentlemen.

Too bad we don't have a nitwit filter here at e-budo.

BJ

Dave Lowry
17th September 2003, 16:31
“Not long ago…a student whose teacher moved was called a thief for trying to find a new school to study.” No, he was not.
I recall the thread. A fellow claimed to have been studying Katori Shinto ryu in London. (No one in England was authorized in any way to legitimately teach KSR. The reasonable assumption was that this corespondent had been involved in a fraud, intentional or otherwise.) His instructor had left town without, apparently, making any provisions for the continuing training of his student. (A further indication the fellow had been traduced). He wanted to know where he might conveniently take up another koryu. His words suggested he might view allegiance to a ryu commensurate with, say, one’s loyalty to a local pizza joint, i.e., if one you like closes, you just find another to replace it.

The response, from an authority on koryu, was not directed at the corespondent. Instead, the authority tried to correct a demonstrated misunderstanding of what it means to learn a koryu. As well, the expert who undertook this task noted that ryu are the proprietary interests of those who have formally inherited them. The expert compared an unauthorized teaching or learning of the ryu to the pirating of music or other copyrighted material on the Internet, noting that both are forms of “theft.”
At least two other authorities also responded to this thread and went to some length to explain the demands of joining a ryu and the need for respecting the property of those ryu. They took the time in an effort to educate the writer and other readers.
The originator of the thread wrote again, “perturbed” at its tone. He compared the experts to “zealots” like those “in religious communities.” He closed by noting that he was going to return to “lurking in the shadows as thiefs (sic) do.”
He likened himself to a thief. After, that is, engaging in name-calling, while completely ignoring the facts or learned perspectives presented him. All in all, an incident well illustrating the point of my essay.

Cordially,

glad2bhere
17th September 2003, 16:55
Dear Mr. Lowry:

".....The response, from an authority on koryu, was not directed at the corespondent. Instead, the authority tried to correct a demonstrated misunderstanding of what it means to learn a koryu. As well, the expert who undertook this task noted that ryu are the proprietary interests of those who have formally inherited them. The expert compared an unauthorized teaching or learning of the ryu to the pirating of music or other copyrighted material on the Internet, noting that both are forms of “theft.?....."

If I might be allowed to affirm your comment by pointing out that despite whatever common practitioners of MA may say about the demeanor of koryu practitioners, this has not stopped individuals from attempting to mimic such behaviors, or represent themselves as a well-aged tradition. I find this especially so in the Korean traditions where, oddly enough, there is no tradition of patrilinear succession whatsoever.

In many ways I have come to envy the time-tested Japanese traditions, however I conclude that no practitioner of any style is done good service by a person who seeks to only imitate that genuine article which can be secured solely through hard work and the appropriate relationships.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

chrismoses
17th September 2003, 18:08
"“Not long ago…a student whose teacher moved was called a thief for trying to find a new school to study.” No, he was not. "

Technically you would be right. The term theif was however used multiple times in the response, and then it was stated that if a person thinks that they can change styles at ones convenience, it is like stealing. To me that reads about the same. I honestly, really don't want to get into a "he said, she said" thing but I feel that unchallenged statements are taken as fact. I was trying to use this example as how misunderstandings happen between the very few people who really know what it is to study and teach koryu and those who know enough to put their foot in their mouth. I did not find the original posters question to be as irreverant as you did either. It was short, simple and asked plainly if anyone knew of a koryu teacher in his area. I assumed from the intensity of the response that what was really being challenged was the statement that he had been studying TSKSR. To me that makes it even more unfortunate.

I agree with most of what was said in the response. To knowingly teach what you do not have a right to is very much like stealing. To knowingly learn what you know is not being legitimately taught is also very much like stealing. Also to jump from a LEGITIMATE affiliation to another would also be unethical. But what is wrong about leaving a course of study which one has no legitimate claim to and trying to seek out one honestly? How is that different from trying to find a teacher in the first place? How many posts have I read over the years where someone interested in koryu is desperately looking for instruction in their area (again, barely knowing what koryu really was)?

To use the bike analogy again, it is wrong to steal a bike. It is wrong to knowingly buy a stolen bike. Is it wrong to buy a bike which you believe the seller has every right to sell? Certainly there would have been ways for the poster to have found out if what he was studying was legitimate and authorized, but would he have known what those methods or signs were as someone new to the art? It is obvious to you, and me and many others on the list. When you met your teacher, did you do a background check to determine his legitimacy? From reading your books, I would assume you wouldn't have known where to start with such an endeavor. I know I wouldn't have known what to look for when I started.

Sorry if this comes across as overly argumentative, I simply like a good discussion, and agree with what you have said here and elsewehere more than you might think. I hope I haven't offended you in any way.

DCPan
17th September 2003, 18:57
Hi all,

Most of the "koryu snobbery" that I've experienced are actually from folks who are NOT even affiliated with a koryu.

i.e. with the internet forum, how often have people gotten requests to find a "kenjutsu/iaijutsu/koryu/ginsu/super-duper/ninja" dojo because the local kendo dojo just don't do it for them? Do they even understand the distinction between the arts?

Perhaps an analogy would be this (Can of worms alert). I was approached at an ATM by two missionaries trying to attract members to their "Christian" church. When I told them I already belong to a church, they said, "Brother, you look unhappy, your church obviously isn't working out for you, why don't you try 'our' church?"

Personally, I find their way of spreading the word unchristian, but still, behaviors like that doesn't help the Christian get a good name, at least in terms of evangelism.

Similarly, all those koryu wanna-bes and their disparaging comments toward gendai budo in their effort to defend their motivation for learning a "koryu" doesn't help either.

That BEING said...I have found some comments expressed by some of the koryu "gods" discouraging.

One particular famous one said on a listserv that the Kendo Kata is great practice and that he even uses it now and then to check himself, but the way the "Kendo folks" practice it makes it...well, you get the picture.

Perhaps the most refreshing view is that of Mr. Amdur's article in the third book from koryubooks:Keiko Shokon ...his comment about the level of energy in practitioners from gendai budo and koryu practitioners is most enlightening....

Eric Baluja
17th September 2003, 19:48
Originally posted by Dave Lowry
...No one in England... Speaking of which (assuming I may, good sir), why the English (i.e., UK) spellings for certain words? Is my memory already failing me, or are you not from the US? This couldn't be a subtle attempt to equate England with snobbery,...could it? (I suppose I could insert a 'smilie' here but I think my attempt at levity is sufficiently clear.)

Cheers,

Dave Lowry
17th September 2003, 19:49
No, Mr. Moses, the term “thief” was not “used multiple times in the response.” The words “theft” and “stealing” were used once each, both as references to the act of taking something that does not belong to one. I found it as easily as you might, on the archives of that e-list. Your initial implication of koryu snobbery, that “someone was called a thief” is inaccurate, at least in the case you cited. I was not “technically right” to observe this. I was right.
It occurs that were koryu snobbery so pervasive as some have insinuated, there would be concrete examples of it, ones not depending on subsequent attempts at equivocation.

Of course there is nothing wrong with discovering you are learning improperly and then seeking authentic instruction. No one said there was. Nor anywhere was it stated “that if a person thinks that they can change styles at one’s convenience, it is like stealing.” A respondent said he had been practising KSR for two years and was looking for another ryu now that his source of instruction had moved. He said nothing whatsoever about any dissatisfaction with the quality of his previous instruction.
He was not criticised in any way for looking for a new ryu. He was told first that his statement regarding his participation in KSR was incorrect and told why. Secondly, he was told that joining a ryu is a process involved, profound, and with prescribed rituals of one sort or another in most cases. These are two, largely separate points, aren’t they? It is disingenuous or imprecise to conflate them. Taking something that doesn’t belong to you is stealing. Seeking to change one’s affiliation or study with a second or third ryu without permission from a teacher or the headmaster of one’s first loyalty or without a great deal of thought and consideration is reckless.
Given the question presented on the e-list in question, the querist appeared to fail to comprehend either of these points. I am confident you grasp both of them and so we ought consider this settled.

Cordially,

allan
17th September 2003, 20:00
David Pan wrote:
--------------
That BEING said...I have found some comments expressed by some of the koryu "gods" discouraging.

One particular famous one said on a listserv that the Kendo Kata is great practice and that he even uses it now and then to check himself, but the way the "Kendo folks" practice it makes it...well, you get the picture.
-------------------

Hi David and the rest of you,

You must be using the term "gods" tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless I don't think that anyone sees the likes of M.Skoss (who made the kendo kata comments you refer to I believe) as omniscient. Simply stated, there are a small handful of people who have a great deal of experience in the classical arts who, when they deem it appropriate, share some of their perspectives. Sometimes these perspectives are stated in authoritative tones, which could be read as arrogant if that's what one is looking to see but I don't really think that this is the case at all.

I can only imagine how annoying it would be to deal with some of the attitudes, kinds of questions asked and expectations of some on this site and others. For many of the questions expressed on the koryu forum I believe that the proper place to go is to your teacher. If you do not have a teacher and are not pursuing a particular course of study then certain questions could, or so I imagine, easily be seen as irrelevant.

I have to wonder just how much personal satisfaction or information these few authorities gain from the discussion which happens here. Personally, I think that they are doing me a BIG favour.

As to Meik's comment about how the "kendo folks" do the kendo kata: Meik is very straightforward about what he likes and dislikes. There is a difference between learning to fight with swords and learning to do a stick-fighting sport which has its origins in swordfighting. I think he is saying that he sees much of value in the kendo kata itself IN REGARDS TO HIS OWN INTERESTS in combat efficacy and history. I don't read him as disparaging kendo or kendoka for doing what they do. He himself wants something else. As a former kendoka myself I have become reinterested in the kata because of his recent comments. I wish that I could remember them! (BTW, he talks about this more in the current discussion of the jo forum).

As if Meik needs any defending anyways!

In my response to you David, I do not mean to disregard your own feelings. I guess we read the situation differently.

Regards,

Earl Hartman
17th September 2003, 21:12
Good grief.

Another "koryu snobbery" thread? What is this, "Groundhog Day" redux? What do I have to do to get out of this endless loop?

Oh. You mean I don't have to post if I don't want to? Right. Forgot about that.

I chose to look in because I read Mr. Lowry's article and was curious to see what people had to say about it. Having read the responses, I also thought that I should say that while I am quite flattered that Guy included me in the august company of Messrs. Skoss and Amdur, I think he is making a mistake here. He ought to know by virtue of long association that I am nothing more than a graduate of "Maven University", our motto being "Opinion Before Knowledge".

Anyway, Guy, the reason I don't post much any more is that I really don't have much of anything to add. I've pretty much shot my wad. I know a bit about a few things and I've pretty much said all I can say about them in a forum like this. Also, since we seem to be constantly going over the same ground time and time again, it got sort of tiresome, actually. I mean, here we are again, just where I started on e-budo: trying to decide if a bunch of other people are snobs.

Still, I think Mr. Lowry is quite accurate about what he said: most people do what they do, budo or not, because they want to be cool. If that is your real reason, you are not going to like it if somebody appears to be cooler than you are. It is really that simple. Some people grow out of this, some people don't.

Somebody might ask me why I do kyudo. I have thought about it a lot, actually, and I realized one day that I simply like to chuck arrows. Growing up, my hero was Robin Hood, who was, hands down, absolutely the coolest friggin' guy on the planet. I wanted to be like him. Some kids want to be Batman. I wanted to be Robin Hood. So that, combined with my interest in Japanese things, led me to kyudo. Why kyudo? Well, the bow was hand-made, old fashioned and really cool, not like those plastic, metal, and fiberglass contraptions with the pulleys and the sights and the balancers and all of that modern crap. It was a bow that Robin Hood would have used, had he been Japanese (I hadn't leaned about Nasu no Yoichi yet).

Anyway, having been at it for a while, I realize that what keeps me at it is not the quest for enlightenment, "Zen" mysticism (:saw: :shot: :smash: ) but becasue I just like bows and arrows. I think they're cool. Same with swords and other weapons. I just really like them. And the more I got to know about them, the more I was drawn to arts that took them seriously and used them in a real way, and where people really trained seriously so they could understand them, not becasue of some silly idea where budo is seen as a metaphor for life (:rolleyes:)or just as a tool to reach some other lofty goal, but becase they really wanted to understand the spirit of the weapon. That is koryu, basically. Or so it seems to me, anyway.

Actually, when you come right down to it, I just think I saw too many chanbara and knights-in-armor movies when I was a kid. Whatareyagonnado?

DCPan
17th September 2003, 21:39
Originally posted by allan


You must be using the term "gods" tongue-in-cheek but nonetheless I don't think that anyone sees the likes of M.Skoss (who made the kendo kata comments you refer to I believe) as omniscient.



I don't know who came up with it, but that seems to be how they are generally referred to nowadays on the iaido-l.

If I would haphazard to guess, it probably grew as a counter-part to calling Peter Boylan the Budo Bum....

I just use it as a non-specific way to address a certain group of folks. It got the point across, didn't it? :D


Originally posted by allan

As to Meik's comment about how the "kendo folks" do the kendo kata: Meik is very straightforward about what he likes and dislikes. There is a difference between learning to fight with swords and learning to do a stick-fighting sport which has its origins in swordfighting. I think he is saying that he sees much of value in the kendo kata itself IN REGARDS TO HIS OWN INTERESTS in combat efficacy and history. I don't read him as disparaging kendo or kendoka for doing what they do.


It is nevertheless a broad sweeping general statement that is disparaging to the practitioners of another art.

After all the talk of busha-shugyo, to make yourself a better person, heiho, and all the hoop-lah, is it GOOD STRATEGY to go around making broad sweeping general statements that are easily misunderstood to the point of taking offense? Does the koryu traditions that he embodies encourage such display of strategy?


Originally posted by allan

As if Meik needs any defending anyways!


:D

chrismoses
17th September 2003, 22:58
“Your initial implication of koryu snobbery, that “someone was called a thief” is inaccurate, at least in the case you cited.” –Dave Lowry

To be fair, I was not using this example as koryu snobbery, but as a situation which could be interpreted as koryu snobbery. Whether or not it was koryu snobbery or not (whatever that is) is irrelevant if it is perceived as such. After all if I take your argument, koryu snobbery is not a phenomenon in itself, it is the PERCEPTION of snobbery that is the phenomenon and therefore the issue.

True the person in question was never called a thief. I apologize for my mistake. I do have a copy of the email to refer to. Theft was used once, stealing used one and piracy once. I still hold that if you use “theft”, “piracy” and “stealing” to describe what someone’s actions are LIKE, then it is not a great leap to imply that their actions are thief like. You apparently feel otherwise. Like I said, we are dealing with a phenomenon of perception.

“Nor anywhere was it stated “that if a person thinks that they can change styles at one’s convenience, it is like stealing.” “ -Dave Lowry

Sorry, I paraphrased, the original was, “So, if a person thinks it's "okay" to go shopping around, switching brands at one's convenience, best think again. It's like stealing -- just plain wrong.”

I fail to see the significant difference between the original and my paraphrase which you quoted.

It’s unfortunate that what started out as a really valuable resource seems to have become a hunting grounds for personal vendetta, witch-hunts (bad-budo) and instant “Seniority”. I was not privy to whatever specifics inspired you to write your piece on “koryu snobbery,” but I feel I’ve been lumped into the “other side.” I’m signing off from this one, apologies to those I offended. (this is e-budo after all, if I didn’t offend someone, I must be doing something wrong...) ;)

Jack B
18th September 2003, 17:06
I think at the root, most everyone who has settled in a style is a snob for their own style. Those who aren't tend to be snobs for cross-training. If you don't feel your chosen martial art is the best, why are you doing it? If you have an inferiority complex about your style, of course you will have a chip on your shoulder when someone casually mentions its shortcomings.

E-budo is still a really valuable resource, Chris. It is simply natural and unavoidable that when people voice their opinions, someone else will feel slighted. The only solution is to never speak about other arts, never give a contrast or perspective. This is actually not bad advice. A great teacher in my sword system advised not to post technical discussions on the internet because (a) they would meaningless to people from other systems, and (b) they would only be cause for friction. Thus it is problematical to have a thread called "Proper cutting technique" because so many styles do things so differently. Anyone with an opinion is per se disparaging everyone else. This sensei would say "We do it this way. There are other ways, and I don't know why they do what they do. But we do it like this." That's classic Japanese politeness.

However, if that's all you get out of people, this would be a really lame forum and not a decent resource at all. I'd just as soon have cocky people explaining why their style is right and all the others are wrong. At least that way I've got some information.

Diane Mirro
19th September 2003, 00:39
You took the words right out of my mouth, you thief you!:nw:

Daruma
19th September 2003, 03:56
I have to apologise for my earlier diatribe as i was a little sick having worked myself into a rather nasty state of dehydration (its rather hot here right now compared to where i come from) so if it was a little incoherant please accept my apologies.

Normally i follow a rather nice strategy of keeping my mouth shut and listening to what the more experienced and mature people have to say on subjects that interest me, i prefer not to run off at the mouth and make myself look foolish by my lack of knowledge on the subject.

The faceless nature of communication here Online makes this a unique enviroment, many people will behave in manners that would be totally inconcievable to them in a close up and personal encounter. Therefore i can understand the analogy of a jealous child who feels intimidated by something that is totally different from what they have and the resulting lack of attention, some people might feel they have a licence to behave in a manner they would never dream of doing in a personal encounter and therefore i am unsurprised at the claim of snobbery being thrown about.

Before i came to Japan two years ago i had a limited understanding of its culture as you can imagine i was ill prepared for the sheer differentness of the place. It probably comes as no surprise that I blundered about with both feet in my mouth for quite some time. I have slowly learned and now spend alot less time with foot in mouth disease, in this my wife and her family and the many friends i have made have been a vital help. Now the cultural attachments to the Gendai arts are many and complex and i would imagine the Koryu arts are far deeper embedded in the culture of Japan, and not only that but a Pre Modern Japan.

in a world of McDojo's and fast food martial arts, where people are changing their arts faster than computer technologies are advancing, the idea of commitment to one style might be a foriegn idea. In the members Lounge there is a thread that discusses this and as you can imagine there has been much discussion and many different view points form a variety of people with different backgrounds and experience.

Even a cursory examination of the Koryu arts would be enough to show that the degree of dedication and commitment required is far deeper and all encompassing, I recall reading an article entitled " Find a New Wife" (by Mr Lowry if i recall correctly) which gave an idea of just how deep this commitment should be. When we compare this to the perceptions of the modern arts where cross training and take what you like and discard the rest is a common concept then it would seem that we have a fundamental difference in viewpoints.

Well over the last couple of years many valuable and experienced people have left E-budo figuring its not worth it, people with questionable backgrounds and childish attitudes arguing with them and wasting their time with what basically amounted to attention seeking and ego massaging.

is this the major flaw of online communication? that it allows free reign to be less respectful than you would be otherwise in real life and that the repercussions of this is a lack of proper communication between parties?

The other side of the coin is the Koryu arts are very serious pursuits these family arts are extremely selective in who they allow to become students, this is not the make as much money as you can McDojo or the Sports martial arts we see increasingly today. That they are selective may be construed as Elitism even though its is but an method of ensuring the vitality and reality of the arts continue as it has before without a thousand breakaway new Sokes everyday.

We have a continuing trend of people claiming to be teaching Koryu when they really are teaching a combination of karate and Aikido or some other Gendai arts. We might ask why is this? what is so attractive to so many people about the Koryu arts?

Well i guess its time to close my trap again and slip back into the Shut up and listen mode again.

fifthchamber
19th September 2003, 14:33
Hello Mr Lowry.
I agree with the article entirely. I found myself nodding at each new paragraph....The attitudes expressed here are often extreme and generally unnapealling...This (For me anyway) was shown well when I actually met up with other "E-Budoka" in London for drinks recently..Although I don't believe that I would have insulted or said anything hurtful to them, the face to face meeting meant a far better understanding of their personalities, and what they REALLY meant wen they posted here....This, I feel is what is lacking in an environment like E-Budo.....It need'nt...But often it is far easier to dismiss outright....Like you said, to believe that the other 'kid' "Thinks he's sooo cool"... I think that some of the more recent examples of the 'Anti-snob' diatribe have been deeply hurtful, both to the majority here on E-Budo and to those it was aimed at...You mentioned the Saito 'thing'....Something like that honestly amazed me....And appalled me...It is also something that is becoming far too common....And a sad thing for ALL Budoka...A case in point being the 'disappearance' of those labled "Koryu Snobs" for most discussions here...It simply is NOT WORTH THE TIME AND EFFORT to respond...When you get hacked down with insults...Those in the position to let people like me (Schmucks...:rolleyes: ) learn more about these arts are less likely to offer opinions....And nobody learns ANYTHING....Such a waste.
Sorry...I just wanted to say that the article is precise, and that I hope that you can continue to write here...
As for bikes?....Well...Beating a recumbant is easy!!...Buy a Cannondale Leftie!!....Good design is timeless.....Much like Budo...
Thank you sir.
Regards.

kruger
20th September 2003, 02:25
An old saying goes something like this:
"We were given two ears and one mouth so that we may listen twice as much as we speak."

Unfortunately for the internet, we have two eyes and ten fingers... The net has made it easy for everyone to have a voice that can be heard by a massive number of people. It does not provide a sense of what is appropriate to say. This leads to the low signal to noise ratios that we see as people post without thinking if what they are contributing is of any real value. Nor does the net readily convey information that is usually communicated with body language and intonation of the spoken word. Since no rebuttal is possible by the originator until a response is posted, the responder's imagination is allowed free reign to see slights that were not intended. The brief nature of the posts and the lengthy time over which they can be studied lends itself to simple misinterpretations being blown completely out of proportion. These reasons, in my opinion, contribute to the requent misunderstanding that we see. This is relevant to the "koryu snob" phenomenon in the following ways:

First, folks can read posts and see snobbery that wasn't intended. Mr. Lowry did an excellent job of covering the less than noble reasons for this, but I think that there are perfectly innocent reasons for doing this.

Second, people can read posts that could be interpreted as snobbery and not see, or acknowlege, that interpretation. Chris Moses' example and Mr. Lowry's response in this thread is an example of this.

...with all due respect to everyone and apologies to those I have unintentionally offended...

Mark Kruger

MarkF
20th September 2003, 13:35
Just a note with a bit of experience on the side:

People stop posting on these BBs every day for all kinds of reasons. They also come back every day, and give an opinion, explain one given in their stead by someone doing a lot of assuming, another thing which sets this form of communication apart: It is just too easy to be wrong, but a little experience in listening does make one think longer before deciding his opinions count. Experince in the subject on which you are about to opine is helpful.

Nearly every person mentioned as leaving E-budo have not canceled their accounts, they are still members, and most are posting. Only one I can think of has actually canceled his account, but, that doesn't mean he can't come back. Multiple accounts abound. More over, he does continue to follow the discussions here.

There are many more than mentioned who have actually stated they would not be coming back, well you all must know the end of that story.

The one reason given for the light posting of late which really rings true was by Earl Hartman. "I just shot my load. (apologies for the paraphrase). This reason, for those who have been members here for a long time is probably the one complaint which stands out most everywhere on this board, Koryu general to Bad Budo to Judo, even in the newer forums, things have slowed, and on.

My numbers are high, but I post far less than I used to, while I lurk at other lists including mailing lists. The same subjects abound. I find myself posting links to old threads more often than I do in rehashing the same, tired subjects. There is only so much to say while in the dojo there is still so far to go that sometimes I feel I've hardly touched it after forty years. It is amazing the limits this medium puts on you while what you do in your dojo probably no one can claim they have even come close. ClosER, perhaps, but not close. Different paths up the same mountain, I suppose.

Instead of assuming these people were _driven_ away, I would tend to think it was as Earl said, on this medium, there is only so much that can be said.

And with that, I've said all I can on that subject.


Mark

PS: Plus, it is a bit off topic, but it was mentioned. Excuse the need to state the obvious.

glad2bhere
20th September 2003, 15:59
Dear Mark:

".....Nearly every person mentioned as leaving E-budo have not canceled their accounts, they are still members, and most are posting. Only one I can think of has actually canceled his account, but, that doesn't mean he can't come back. Multiple accounts abound. More over, he does continue to follow the discussions here....."

I want to come up front and say that I was one of those folks who left E-BUDO for quite a while following a series of experiences that left me dissillusioned or disappointed with attitudes here. I know. Maybe that sounds a bit "snobby" or arrogant on my part. After all who the heck am I to judge someone else. However, I thought that I would mention some of what I felt at the time.

Personally, I believe that we more experienced folks owe it to our arts to provide resources to the folks coming up behind us so that they have an accurate understanding and appreciation of what they have gotten themselves into when they throw around terms like "black belt", "martial arts" "teacher" and so forth. Where I had the hardest time was when I would comment on something and, effectively be advised that it didn't matter what was true or correct, but only that the person was happy with his understanding and would'nt I please quit raining on his parade. No problem. I took my ball and went home.

Then I began to notice that as better informed folks fell silent, less-informed individuals simply had an easier time spreading around blatant misrepresentations or falsehoods. I also found that not all of the Nets I had been visiting were created equal and that some discussion Nets seemed to draw more serious and less serious practitioners. In fact, even within the categories of the same Net I have found different populations.

I still believe that as a MA teacher I am mandated to provide guidance to others, but I do so much more selectively. I spend about 60% of my time in LM, and usually limit my comments to one or two specific points and then drop back. For instance, I don't do much with the "members forum", or "bad budo" here as most of the discussions simply circle roundabout endlessly. On the other hand I keep a pretty close eye on the Koryo area, and make it often to SFI, DOJANG DIGEST and AIKIDO JOURNAL. I don't think I am trying to make any particular point, here except to give some insight into how experiences have shaped my contributing behavior. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

MarkF
21st September 2003, 12:40
I don't disagree with you, Bruce. By my numbers, it seems that I have been posting a lot. I haven't, and for some of the same reasons you mention, and those of others.

I was only trying to clear up a misconception concerning the reason people don't show up as often as they did. For all we know, they could have been busy. Or had nothing to add (and for what it's worth, I agree with you as well regarding those fora).

I find myself posting links to old threads instead of climbing the same tree for the ump-teenth time.


Mark

hyaku
22nd September 2003, 00:57
I think a lot of this is determined by the internet and how many books you have on the shelf behind you that you can refer to.

One really needs to meet a lot of the people out there, see what they can do in the dojo and train with them to form any real sort of opinion. These words "official" and "authorized" stick in my throat a bit.

Hyakutake Colin

MarkF
22nd September 2003, 08:42
Colin,

I've done that, too. I've made not only friends, but have gone to "see what they really have" and always seem to bring something back.

My books have become dog eared and a couple have really gone down in value, too.

A paraphrased quote from a friend who quoted a teacher at a seminar after I had gone home: "Mark will never be a great fighter again, not even if he gets into perfect shape, but he is there for his students and that is very important." I actually never thought of myself as a fighter, other than the twenty years of shiai, but that works well for me these days and is accurate. I took it as a compliment.

The Internet serves a purpose, but it does get tedious at times. I find myself having to clear out my PMs more often now. They are in the count, too, but they aren't "posted" as it were.


Mark

Yakibasama
20th June 2005, 22:57
I just finished reading Mr. Lowery's five thousand word defensive explanation about why he is not a snob.
Now I know there are alot of people here that like Mr.Lowery. I have not had the pleasure of meeting him, so I must say that I do not know the real Mr. Lowery. I am sure he is quite a gentalman in every respect.
The thing I am attempting to address here is the media image that is rippling through our comunity.
Mr. Lowery, you are most definitly coming off as a snob. It drips from your every sentance.
If you were not a snob, it would not take five thousand plus words to make the point. Many people here look up to you and will follow your lead. I think you should be extremely carefull about the true driving motivations behind your rants, it seems that it could obscure the original and most important reasons that you began training in the first place.

Eric Baluja
20th June 2005, 23:05
Thank you.

Howard Thiery
20th June 2005, 23:13
Yakibasama,
please post your real name along with your post (e-budo rules). It can easily be placed in the signature that gets posted.

I will leave it to others more qualified than I (Ellis Amdur, Mr. Skoss or others) to point out the reason why if you actually thought that the article dripped with snobbery than you neither understood the article nor koryu. The real paradox is that depite the snobby sounds of that its not snobby its just the odd paradox at work in the understanding of koryu.

cheers,
H

Yakibasama
20th June 2005, 23:49
Mr Thirey-
Please excuse my spelling as I am pressed for time and I have never been good at spelling in the first place!

I must disagree with you about the article. As I pointed out, one does not need a jumble of five thousand verbs,adverbs, sysnonymes and hominees and other technical names for euphimisims and variouse rationalizations to make a simple point.
I also do not agree that the study of a koryu propogates this point of view.
I DO think that an elitist study of any art does just that.

fifthchamber
21st June 2005, 00:20
What's so "elitist" about Koryu? Hell, I know plenty of guys and girls here who could never be considered "snobs"....It's funny ain't it that this entire point of view exists only outside of Japan....Odd I think...The Japanese that I train with don't give a flying monkey about what you think you represent in Koryu...It matters little. If you are in one of the Koryu you have seperate duties to that school that perhaps are not found in the other arts here..But the training is what it is...Nothing more and nothing less...They all seem to hurt...
People and opinions are the only real problems here...Some people can be considered snobs...Sure..To each their own...But many of us are just here to train...Who cares what we get called on online forums...
Relax mate...It really matters very little. If you want koryu the way to find it is to come to Japan. If you don't then it matters not anyway...I have found.
Regards.

Howard Thiery
21st June 2005, 00:46
Ben,
I agree and think thats the very point. Koryu just is what it is. Its the desire to "be koryu" that has cropped up here in the west has that produced an elitist perception. When it turns out that you can't "be koryu" you either are or you aren't. When it turns out that some of those that want to be can't they project that Koryu must be elitist.

Anyway thats my 2 cents which in this ecoomy is worth a hapenny.

Oh yeah...Yakibasama , you still have to sign your name.......its not snobbery or anything its just the rules of this forum.

cheers,
H

Yakibasama
21st June 2005, 05:15
Well, those are nice dances gentelmen, however the rubuttals that you have offered are so off the mark, I am afraid it is you that have not understood my posting.
I do not for a second belive that koryu practioners are all snobs. Rather, I was pointing out that the essay that was written by Mr. Lowry fails dismally to weight his argument that he is not a snob.
The raw defense of such a position is genrally mounted in a very different way. He did the literary equivilent of shooting at a fly with a shotgun. Given that, the constitution of what makes a koryu authentic is a tired subject here in our country. The fact of the matter is simply that many forms of Japanese swordsmanship have been in this country for a very long time now. And wether or not some practioners can point to a nice fellow with slanted eyes is frankly irrelivant to the level of dilligence a given art is practiced with.
So many of you here on e-budo are so interested in "ligitimacy" that you often fail to see it as a moot point relative to martial skill. I think one of you may have pointed that out in so many words earlier. This very type of rhetoric was used and disscussed even in mideval Japan. Some of the styles we have today were not accepted by elitists of those times. Some of those very styles are now being taught by your contemporaries. "It matters not" was far more elequent than the verbose and transparant litany offered so proudly on the front page of this site. Mr. Lowry makes a seriously unedited attempt at leading the reader in a circle back to his original argument. The problem is, folks, the reader didnt learn a thing on the trip other than Mr. Lowry felt embattled and needed to lash out.
Which is one of the reasons I say that he is a snob. Definitly.
As for my name....it matters not, but if you must know. It is Bill.
I had to fill out the damn form to post here. The least you can do is lift a finger. Click. And read what is there.
~Bill

fifthchamber
21st June 2005, 05:31
So your problem is with Dave Lowry then? Since his is the only name you have brought up in regards to this thread....Great, let him know that you don't really like his writing..Others may well agree with you..I don't know.
Your post however was entitled "KoRyu snobbery"...Not "Mr Lowry's snobbery..."...I think if you do have an issue with his writing style you should tell him..Not post about it here...If you have an issue with other practitioners then feel free to post about them too...It's your shout...But putting all koryu practitioners into the same group and labelling us all snobs is what often results from threads like this...It helps change absolutely nothing.
Talk to Mr. Lowry. (I am sure he would welcome a well thought out argument...)
Regards.
(And I think the moderators may still object to "Bill"...It may help to use the signature setup in the User section to add it automatically to your posts each time...It's just a button click away too Mr. Jackson...)

MarkF
21st June 2005, 11:07
[b]As for my name....it matters not, but if you must know. It is Bill.
I had to fill out the damn form to post here. The least you can do is lift a finger. Click. And read what is there.
~Bill


Most of us know the rule. Your comment is nothing less than a lack of respect for those who know the rules. While they are not yet printed on the pages of e-budo due to a hacking incidient and the upgrade to newer software, it does not mean a first name only, if that first name is really Bill. Please sign with a first name and true surname or a first initial and your true surname. It IS the rule here. In general, those who did not read the rules before accepting them, or those who do not generally read the rules get once chance. There is only one warning: sign your true, full name or stop posting before that is taken from you. No one wants to do that, and it isn't a big deal, but most here would like to know just a little bit about a person before they respond. The "name rule" is a first step on that road. You have also broken the rule of treating your fellow e-budo members with respect, just by having fun with the name rule. It is absolutely imperative that you do so now.

Go into the usersCP and set your sig with your name. It then allows you to post and automatically your name with be at the bottom of each post.

After reading your posts, I agree, Mr. Lowry does sometimes come off that way, as do a few others. It does not mean he is right or wrong, just that he explained his opinion, whether or not he believes he has proven the koryu snob to be fictitious or real. There are people like that in all budo, gendai or koryu, but if there are people like that in koryu, it is the koryu itself which almost forces some to come off like that. It is a choice, but other than spelling curb with the British spelling of "kerb" it is a pretty well written piece. To me, not answering someone's question because "it must be by the koryu, for the koryu, and everything for the koryu" is a waste of bandwidth IMO, but I respect they accept what they do as such. Perhaps starting a thread with: "Did Mr. Lowry (or David) make his case in coming to the conclusion that koryu snobbery does not exist, prove his point? Let some respond then reply to those responses.

I trained in a kory atmostphere a long while ago, in what may be called to day a "study group." It is very different from the more than forty years I have been involved in judo.

If you are trying to educate any of the koryu practitioners, it isn't coming off very well, but if you wish to comment on Dave Lowry, himself, then do so within the rules of "treat your fellow e-budo member with respect."

Oh, and BTW, bud, Welcome to E-budo.com!

If you are not a troll, you will be happy to sign your full name. Otherwise, I see your time here a short one.

(I had only wanted to answer your question about David Lowry, or at least add to it, before your condesending attitude gave another perspective. I think "koryu snobbery" to exist but then I have seen it in almost everything else, as well, including the fact that "I am only judoka" of which I am reminded time and time again). In fact, I believe this imaginary line does not exist but evolution does, from bujutsu to budo and jujutsu to judo, it is simply on a time continuum of sorts.

Otherwise you can despise koryu, it's practitioners, and writers all want, but a little background is just as welcome.


Mark

PS: If you look around, people are either using their full name as the username while others sign their posts by using your prefs under the User CP at the top, or they use the signature function.

I think I am moderated out at this point.

George Kohler
21st June 2005, 13:03
Yakibasama has been placed in E-Budo Hell until he signs his name with his full real name. Yakibasama, make sure you study hard at University of Minnesota.

Howard Thiery
21st June 2005, 15:21
Mark,
I am blown away that anyone would let you know "you are only judoka". As a former practicioner of jujutsu and currently an aikidoka I have always had great respect for the judoka I have met. You in particular are someone whose posts I always look forward to reading regardless of which forum you post in. Your comments are usually as balanced and measured as I would expect a judoka to be on the mat. You have particularly opened my eyes to the great tradition and rich history that judo includes. I was always respectful of the technical aspects of judo but it is your writings on this site that have made me aware of the depth of judo beyond the competition factor.
respectfully,
Howard

PS: thanks for trying to moderate this thread, I tried to steer him back onto the mat but without much luck

Finny
21st June 2005, 15:52
I was pointing out that the essay that was written by Mr. Lowry fails dismally to weight his argument that he is not a snob.

As far as I can see (I just read the article again) there is not ONE point in the article that Mr. Lowry says that he is not a snob.

Rather than others misunderstanding your posts, 'Bill', I think it is you who has misunderstood Mr. Lowry's article.


Mr. Lowery, you are most definitly coming off as a snob. It drips from your every sentance.
If you were not a snob, it would not take five thousand plus words to make the point.

What point would that be, Bill? That he's not a snob?

LMAO - the entire point of the article is to articulate the idea that calling someone a 'snob' is not an argument. Calling someone a 'snob' serves no purpose. So you don't like the way Mr. Lowry writes. I sometimes find his verbose style a bit overbearing myself. But who cares? What does that say about Dave Lowry? That he likes to make a point in a pretentious and longwinded manner? Big deal - do you have a problem with any of the POINTS he makes, or just the way in which he makes them?

Whether you realise it or not - you've just become the living epitome of the subject of the article - the "child standing off to the side of things and sneering, "He thinks he's so cool.""

So you think Mr. Lowry's a snob. Got anything else to say - perhaps something substantive that can actually be argued, rather than your subjective opinions of the man's personality?

Back to Reading Comprehension 101 for you, methinks.

Finny
21st June 2005, 15:56
And I hope you do agree to sign your posts with your real name so we can continue this discussion - I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.

The 'full name' rule is followed by everyone here and is not a big deal - just stick your name in you signature and forget about it.

Regards,

Brendan

glad2bhere
21st June 2005, 16:38
Dear Folks:

As a practitioner of Korean arts, normally I would not get involved in such a discussion. However, I was recently involved in a number of exchanges over on SFI that kind of spoke to whats being said here. Please indulge me for a minute.

I believe that the Internet is a powerful tool for people communicating about what they do. That said, I seem to identify a pattern with JSA folks in which they show up on the Internet and maintain a presence just enough to communicate that they either can't or won't communicate about what they do and why.

Please note: I am NOT looking for teaching nor to have people bare their souls or reveal the deepest secrets of their ryu. If, however, I note that Otake ("Deity and the Sword") performs a movement in a particular way which differes from the way a person such as myself in Korean sword might do it, it would be nice to be able to ask about such things without the sort of attitude that says "I COULD tell you, but then I'd have to kill you", ya know?

Yes, I DO find something arrogant about someone who comes onto a public forum just long enough to let everyone know what they CAN'T talk about, or why JSA CAN'T be talked about at all in written form (many books as evidence to the contrary). To me such behavior is not unlike my grand-daughter making a great show of enjoying a toy in front of other children only give all kinds of reasons why she cannot share.

In closing, may I say that even in this short thread I am seeing a number of evasions, not a little avoidance behavior and much obtusive response. If JSA people don't want to talk about what they do, thats OK. But then, what are they doing on a venue espousing communication? I hate to think that all this is about is recruiting and nothing more. Am I wrong? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Rogier
21st June 2005, 16:49
jeez.... people just stop feeding the troll...

Finny
21st June 2005, 16:57
Bruce, I understand where you're coming from, but I think we need to clarify what's being discussed in this thread.

1. The originator of this thread asserted that the article by Dave Lowry reinforced his notion that Mr. lowry is in fact a snob, rather than (what he saw as the point of the article) showing that Mr. Lowry is NOT a snob.

2. From there, the discussion has brached out into another 'are koryu folks snobs?' type of thread.

The only part I myself was commenting on was the first point - just to say that the article had little to do with whether or not Mr. Lowry is actually a snob.

You make a fair point about the whole "I just came here to say I can't talk about it" thing. But I'm sure some koryu folks would have just as valid reasons for not discussing certain things. I wouldn't know - I'm not a part of the 'in' crowd :p .

Trevor Johnson
21st June 2005, 17:28
Well, I've met Mr. Lowry, and I've talked with him, and I've seen him perform. I think that what you may be mistaking for snobbery is merely erudition. In other words, he's a writer by trade, and a skilled and knowledgeable one, at that. Some may find his style a bit intimidating, but for me it's quite comfortable, since I read a lot and strive for similar goals. If you've read a few of his books, you'll be in a much better position to judge, in my own opinion.

Howard Thiery
21st June 2005, 17:28
Bruce,
what has me puzzled about your post is that so far most of the responders on this thread aren't JSA folks. I'm sure you are aware the Koryu extend broader than JSA and not all JSA are koryu. I'm sorry if any of my posts seemed dodgy or evasive. I kind of always took the koryu concpet matter of factly. Some arts are and some arts aren't. When I was a TKD practicioner I never felt the need to make TKD more than it was. It was great for me as itself. A Korean Martial Art. When I took up Jujutsu and then Aikido I had no need to make either more than they were. I have enjoyed them for what they have given me. They do not need to be koryu nor are they (at least not the JJ I learned). When Koryu practicioners point out that something is not Koryu I see it as just a factual statement not a judgement. But those that belong to styles that want to "be koryu" take it as judgement, its not its just a fact. To me this is no different then when I look at someone doing Aikido and say "that is not Aikido". This does not mean it is not effective, good or strong technique or worthy of learning just that it is not Aikido. When Koryu practicioners and sensei have told me that I would not understand or they can not explain something I have never taken it as super secret or demeaning to me but rather that I just can't learn or comprehend or even they just can not explain that aspect outside the context of being a practicioner. To me that is no different than when I tell a fisherman that I can not teach him to flyfish if he does not come flyfishing or a climber that I cannot teach him about judging avalanche hazards if he does not come with me to the mountain backcountry (I have been both a climbing guide and flyfishing guide for large chunks of my life so these are meaningful contexts for me). Amidst this I have found many koryu folks open and accepting of my experiences and willing to share much of their knowledge with me. I am sorry of this is not your experience or if I have ever seemed dodgy, or evasive in the posts on this thread or any other.
cheers,
Howard

George Kohler
21st June 2005, 17:33
The 'full name' rule is followed by everyone here and is not a big deal - just stick your name in you signature and forget about it.

Regards,

Brendan

I doubt that Bill Jackson is his real name.

Finny
21st June 2005, 17:39
Yeah, I guessed that too George.

But still, how hard is it to stick a false name in your signature and at least pretend to be following the rules. There are a couple of folks in the 'Leaving Wing Chun' thread which I suspect have done just that.

I just would enjoy hearing his response to some of the points made on this thread.

George Kohler
21st June 2005, 23:58
I just would enjoy hearing his response to some of the points made on this thread.

I would too if he signs his name on every post, but since he doesn't want to come back, I'm guess we will never know.

Meanwhile, here is the e-mail he sent.


Hello Mr Kohler.
First, let me point out that Your actions in effort to "administrate" really were merely censoring efforts. My condescending attitude as it were, is the taken out of context due to the defensiveness of the culture that you forward there at your forum. My attempts at posting an argument about the general attitude of certain people was not meant to be a touchy feely kind of thing. It was meant as an actual critique of philosophical stance. I am quite sensitive to this.
You see Mr. Kohler, I am an American. I do not try to be Japanese. I do not want to be Japanese. There are many beautiful and powerful things about their culture that I admire and have a deep reverence for. That said, I have to point out that my stomach is turned when I see so many people here in the US, complaining and balking about "authenticity" and being defensive about it when they encounter someone they do not know or recognize from previous experience. My own experience is simply that I have trained for a very long time in an art that is called Shinkage Ryu. All of that training happened here in the US.
I am no less authentic for it. Even if the ko-ryu snobs complain.
The problem arises when people like Mr. Lowry proceed to denounce and negate the training of people like myself. Repeatedly, people with this attitude attempt to diminish the rest of us.
I will illustrate this a bit further for you.
It was not so long ago, maybe 10 years or so ago, that training in the Japanese sword arts here in America, were nearly the exclusive province of well to do white men. The same demographic that generally would have nothing to do with people of a different race or ethnicity. There are always exceptions of course. Mr. Lowry is to be commended for his efforts and experiences. The thing is, he routinely attacks people that have trained every bit as hard as he has, in some cases harder- I have seen Mr. Lowry, he is a soft specimen with a hard attitude. Unhealthy Mix.
At any rate, it is very offensive that he and others try to negate the training of some without ever visiting their dojo. The reality is that some koryu existed here in our country prior to Lowry, prior to Dreager. It existed in little towns spread out all over the country. The recent introduction of Engnath's work on a large scale put it in reach of so many Americans in the lower income ranges, that an elitist attitude can no longer survive. It is the writing on the wall.
Ahh...don't no who Engnath is? Perhaps you don't know as much as you think you do. Take a lesson boy, but don't ever repeat what I am about to tell you without thinking of this letter to you. This is important, I am not attacking you, it is just that I am a very old hand at watching these trends and defending my right to exist without being harangued. I am tired. So, if it comes off a little abrasive, think of your favorite D.I. and give me a bit of forgiveness.
Bob Engnath was a Knife Maker. He ran the House of Muzzel loading way back in the 70's. Bob was a gifted writer and a gifted craftsman. He was also curious. Bob Engnath did the early experiments with differential heat treatment a few years before Micheal Bell arrived on the scene. He figured out how to build a stock removal blade that could be differentially tempered after the Japanese fashion. He did alot of experiments and talked with alot of people. This lead to him forging katana that had true hamon. Then he met James. James wanted to sell Japanese swords that were fully functional, or as close as they could be. James had a sensei that knew something about tsukamaki and other elements of general sword maintenance. He was apparently trained somewhere, I don't know where. Anyway, he began to buy swords from Engnath and fittings from Lohman. If you don't know who Fred Lohman is, you really should get connected with what has been going on here in America with regards to Japanese sword arts. Fred's a good guy and he has been around for a long, long time. Anyway, James started a company called Bugie. Engnath provided the blades to them. After Bob died, maybe 94? I don't remember; James and his company bought all of the remaining stock from Engnath's shop. Then they took Bob's writings and notes, along with some examples of his work to a place called Dalshin, China.
That information lead to the creation of the Hanwie forge. The Company CAS Iberia now saturates the market with affordable, serviceable Katana. Last year they did 7 Million dollars in Japanese style swords alone.
Which brings me to my point. The romance of the blade is quite strong. People are interested in it. Many of these small dojo I keep referring to spent years training in their own little corner of the world. Never really keeping in contact with anyone. This is not unusual in a nation where most of it's citizens cannot name their GrandFather's Father. Still, the art exists outside of Japan, independent of any governing body. That swordsmen are here and doing an authentic art is Defacto, regardless of what anyone says, they will not be stopping anytime soon.
These people come from all social strata and are quite dedicated to what they are doing. They have their own reasons for doing what they are. Some of them are great swordsmen, some suck in the most intense way possible. That does not change what they really believe in. There will be good ones and bad ones. They believe in what they are doing. For someone to come along and announce that it is "dubious" or "fake" may or may not be proper, but some of them are not. Some of them are hard trainers. Some of them may have found it on their own- it is possible you know. The great writing by Munenori speaks of this quite frequently. He say that some people are naturally strong with the way. Who is to say if not him?
So, I am about to close so I will leave you with this thought about the community at large. There are more people training now that in the past. The thing is they are training. The strong ones will find the way through, regardless of whether or not they trained with Mr. Lowry or you.

As for me, I am done. You are hereby condemned to Jackson Hell. It has been made clear that an articulate, frank discussion is not allowed. Since I have no wish to be in the mutual admiration club, you are to be deprived of yet another outlook. Do not try to respond, I am not interested in what you have to say on the matter, you have censored me. Now I will return the favor.
As for my "study" at the U of M. Well, you think you are clever. It just so happens that I have friends that I am visiting. One of them runs a dojo here. People are mobile.
Absolutely out.
~Bill

fifthchamber
22nd June 2005, 00:45
Wow..
What a waste of a thread..And this takes up bandwidth? Heh...What a shame...
Regards..

Howard Thiery
22nd June 2005, 01:57
if he stayed......he would have achieved baffling budo status....I'm almost sorry to have been sucked into this thread at all.

Thiery... out

sheesh :rolleyes:

Trevor Johnson
22nd June 2005, 03:11
Wooooowwww, I AM impressed. Still, I'd love to push him into the same room as, say, skoss, lowry, amdur... The shellacking he'd get would be SO much fun to see!!!

glad2bhere
22nd June 2005, 04:35
Dear Howard:

Thanks for taking the time to respond. If I can, I will work at being a bit more concise with my thought and perhaps that might clarify things a bit.

I have found Dave Lowry's writing to be both informative and enjoyable. He is a proud practitioner of his art and has every right to be proud of both what he has written and what he has trained dilligently in.

Being a "snob" is an emotion-based assessment which I have seen cast about, typically by "outsiders" onto "insiders". As unfair as it is, I can understand how someone who feels disenfrachised might easily throw such a stone the same way good students are identified as "teachers pet" and good athletes are labeled "dumb jocks".

The sole point of my post was only to say that sometimes the behavior of JSA folks in maintaining non-communication, being distant, retiscent, obtuse, and asocial with any but their own kind (however misunderstood those behaviors might be) only contributes to such conclusions as the one that started this thread. Hope this helps a bit.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Steve Delaney
22nd June 2005, 09:10
Boy, am I glad that I only lurked with this one. :D

MarkF
22nd June 2005, 11:21
Howard,

Thank you so much for the very kind words. If I lived up to that standard, I would need another lifetime to do so, at the very least. :o

The comment "...only a judoka" mostly comes from friends as I seem to be one of the few who never found reason to move on to something else. I have tried but I never experience the same comfort level nor the same level of training as I do in the judo dojo, but I have made the effort to at least experience a little here and there. Those experiences cemented my connection with Kodokan Judo.

I wanted to say "thanks."


Mark

Howard Thiery
22nd June 2005, 18:05
Bruce,
thanks..I get it now thanks to your patience and explanation. Yup, I can see how that might happen or how that could feel for someone.
Thanks

Mark,
your welcome...I was just stating how I see your posts. I'm not prone to blowing smoke (I'm more commonly thought of as a cynical sob) so I would not sweat living up to any standard....you're doing just fine as is.

Cheers all...see you in the next thread.

Howard

shieldcaster
23rd June 2005, 16:21
It drips from your every sentance.

Well, that is poetic, isn't it? Glad you could join the fray here...ahem...'Bill'. I think that you should probably just say whatever it is you are wanting to say instead of 'dancing' around it. Way to represent yourself as a respectible, intelligent guy.
I would say that no one here is trying to defend Mr. Lowry, or even--oh dear--rebut your obviously well-founded opinion of him. There are probably a few koryu folks in here who would not take entirely too kindly to you perhaps trying to lump all koryu practitioners into one snobby group. Debating anyone's level or lack of understanding of what you have written should reflect more on your ability to easily convey your thoughts--if mistakes were made in anyone's reading comprehension skills.
As my British counterpart so astutely pointed out in an earlier post, but translated into American for an added perspective, chill out, man. If you are going to get all upset about this, could you at least post some pics for us so we can have something solid to laugh at?

That wet t-shirt thing is classic, there, 'Bill'. You could probably hit us up with some pics of that, too. I would love to see a pic of your moobs.

Oops. Now he will never know. Oh well...for posterity, then.