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Nathan Scott
17th October 2005, 02:20
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nicojo
17th October 2005, 02:33
Interesting stuff Mr Scott. I wish Hiden was available in English, or that my Japanese was up to the task. :rolleyes:

It is a good article for those who think JMA are static, and shows that at that time people were really interested in looking at the common arts of the day--who might issue a challenge. At least that's one thing I get out of it.

I wonder if DRAJ might put some counters to BJJ or whatever is the rage. :cool: Heh. Just kidding.

Nathan Scott
17th October 2005, 02:54
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George Kohler
17th October 2005, 04:00
Interestingly, Sato Kinbei, a kyoju dairi under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi in Daito-ryu, was also a student of Hoshi Sadakichi and taught Yagyu shingan-ryu.

Just a quick correction. Sato Kinbei was never a student of Hoshi Sadakichi. His line was:

Hoshi Sadakichi - Takahashi Hikokichi - Suzuki Heikichi - Suzuki Sensaku - Sato Kinbei

and

Hoshi Sadakichi - Takahashi Hikokichi - Kato Hikokichi - Suzuki Sensaku - Sato Kinbei.

Nathan Scott
22nd October 2005, 06:26
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Nathan Scott
30th May 2006, 00:53
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edg176
30th May 2006, 01:24
Nathan,
Was there anything in the article about basic conditioning methods in Yagyu Shingan Ryu?

Thanks

Ellis Amdur
30th May 2006, 05:46
Nathan - I think I was chief among the scoffers, and remain so.
- Perhaps the equivalent, today, would be a gangster trying to harm the mayor of Los Angeles. LEO would be the hatamoto. Would you or any of your colleagues do anything less than the most expedient actions to protect him?
- I took a close protection officer course several years ago. If one's principal was under threat of attack, we, among other things, tackled him and carted him away like a sack of potatoes.
Anyway, I actually believe that such "Gyoi-dori" existed in some ryu's curriculum, just as is written. What it actually establishes, in my opinion, is that the daimyo et al were under no significant threat nor had they been for hundreds of years. Therefore, such mannered ideas arose.
Given that, in fact, the uncultivated rural warriors were, on the whole, far more effective fighters - as shown in Meiji, AND, given that, in the Edo period, farmers using rakes and hoes regularly routed bushi armed with swords who had to retreat to the armories to get guns to drive them back, I think that Gyoi-dori was probably practiced by the same type of individual who writes the articles in Hiden.
On the other hand, the parts of your thesis re YSR studying with Takeda and the idea that swordsmen went to him to get the knowledge re jujutsu that they lacked makes a lot of sense.

Regards

Nathan Scott
30th May 2006, 06:46
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judasith
7th June 2006, 10:17
Dear Nathan and posters,

In our upcoming book we will publish a long excerpt of Takeda Sokaku's eimeroku translated in English. There actually is registered at the year 33 of the Meiji Era a Tanosaki Uemon written as master of Yagyu Shingan-ryu, who participated to Takeda's lessons with 6 of his students.

While this is true, it doesn't mean absolutely anything: surely not that Yagyu Shingan-ryu was influenced by Daito-ryu simply because ONE teacher attended a Seminar!

In any case, if we'd ever consider THAT as an influence, we may well say that almost ALL the Koryus and gendai budo present in Japan were influenced by Daito-ryu, since among Sokaku's students registered in the eimerokus are martial artists from Kendo, Karate, Judo, at least 3-4 Itto-ryu branches, 2-3 Yagyu derived arts, Kito-ryu, Tenshin Shin'yo ryu, etc. etc. etc.

The one fact you can derive from these registers, is that for sure Takeda Sokaku was REALLY a remarkable person and a true martial genius, if so many practitioners, students, teachers and also kaiden-level people of that many arts wanted to attend one or more of his lessons.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

chrismoses
7th June 2006, 16:01
The one fact you can derive from these registers, is that for sure Takeda Sokaku was REALLY a remarkable person and a true martial genius, if so many practitioners, students, teachers and also kaiden-level people of that many arts wanted to attend one or more of his lessons.

Best regards,

Giacomo Merello

That's interesting. I was jsut talking about this last night with a few folks. It recently dawned on me that due to the seminar nature of Takeda's teaching, it would be very unlikely that totally inexperienced folks would attend. Much like seminars today, a vast majority of those going through the trouble to attend are already experienced in some art, even if it's not the art in question. Anyway, I'd look forward to reading the eimeroku to see how many/few people came to the art without experience in some other art. Personally I feel this would go a long way in explaining how so many of the early students of Takeda and Ueshiba were by all accounts quite talented while each subsuqent generation less so. If the art was initially disseminated more like a continuing education series or PhD self study, adapting that kind of information for brand new students would be asking a lot of the relatively junior instructors tasked with spreading the art.

Chris Li
7th June 2006, 22:41
That's interesting. I was jsut talking about this last night with a few folks. It recently dawned on me that due to the seminar nature of Takeda's teaching, it would be very unlikely that totally inexperienced folks would attend. Much like seminars today, a vast majority of those going through the trouble to attend are already experienced in some art, even if it's not the art in question. Anyway, I'd look forward to reading the eimeroku to see how many/few people came to the art without experience in some other art. Personally I feel this would go a long way in explaining how so many of the early students of Takeda and Ueshiba were by all accounts quite talented while each subsuqent generation less so. If the art was initially disseminated more like a continuing education series or PhD self study, adapting that kind of information for brand new students would be asking a lot of the relatively junior instructors tasked with spreading the art.

Yukiyoshi Sagawa remarked repeatedly about how difficult it was to find people to attend those seminars because of the high costs involved. The usual pattern would be that Takeda would come into town (in this case accompanied by Sagawa). settle himself at an inn, and then send Sagawa around to recruit students for a seminar. In many cases they would target the local police because they were (a) interested in the martial arts and (b) able to afford Takeda's fees since the government would be footing the bill.

The interesting thing about Sagawa's accounts (apart from confirmation of Takeda's fee structures) was that Takeda (or his proxy) apparently recruited for his seminars very aggressively - not surprising, since they were his bread and butter. I would think that the high fees would deter most people without some kind of interest in the martial arts.

Best,

Chris

glad2bhere
13th June 2006, 13:24
I think this is an important historical pattern to consider whenever folks consider using the MA as a potential career move. I have often stated that the MA instruction was never intended as an actual career and far too often folks seem to need to modify their material in deference to the whims of the buying public. Though it is rarely mentioned I think we need to give increased credence to the patronage many teachers may have enjoyed from patriotic and well-heeled supporters. Failing this, there is also the matter tha many folks who have sought to promote or perpetuate authentic traditions have been forced to do so more as an avocation rather than a vocation.

Or, as we say here in the States, "don't quit yer day job!" :)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
19th June 2006, 02:37
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azaikijutsujudo
22nd June 2006, 15:56
Hello all. I wanted to say that I'm new to the board, and have found what I've learned so far very enlightening. I study AJJ in Arizona, and have heard many great things about Sensei Nathan, and am excited to be on this forum

glad2bhere
23rd June 2006, 02:53
During any generation, the headmaster and shihan of any given ryu-ha are influenced by the more capable arts extant at that time. This is not necessarily a bad thing, and does not mean that the whole art changes as a result. Typically such reversals or additional methods are added as a "betsuden" level or something similar.

But don't take my word for it - do some of your own research outside of just listening to what the seniors in your own group say! ;)

Regards,

Thanks, Nathan. I understand what you are saying, but applying your logic is it EVER possible to have a definitive answer on ANY MA themes? This is not a rhetorical question nor am I speaking out of frustration. Rather my question is simple. Given any particular theme in the MA around the world, is it ever possible to have definitive answer on anything or will it always be a matter of faith and personal opinion? In my experience it seems that no matter what view any one individual takes, there is never consensus (acceptance?) that what is posited is accurate. I guess what I am asking is what sort of facts would be required to finally have a definitive answer regarding anything MA? Thoughts? Is there such a thing as incontrovertible fact when it comes to MA history and development? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
24th June 2006, 05:47
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Howard Quick
24th June 2006, 06:47
I think Nathan hit it right on the head!
If a system is allowed to stagnate, it will whither and die.
On one occasion regarding Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu when asked how much has the system changed Jan De Jong Soke said it is nothing like it used to be
One of Jan de Jong's senior students once commented to him that he should change the name to De Jong Ryu due to the amount of changes he had made over the years. His reply, "No. The principles and basic ideas/strategies are still the same (Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu)".
Attacking styles and weapons have changed over time, the human body is still pretty much the same.

judasith
24th June 2006, 12:05
This concept of "alive" and "dead" arts, is one of the fundamental debates in the martial arts. I saw many Nihon Kobudo videos of different koryus, and I must say that in most of them only the exterior "shell" of the technique is preserved today, there is no "life" and reality in those kata anymore. An example are the Kendo no kata: have you ever seen the ten pre-war kendo no kata showed in that famous tape with Goro Saimura and Mochida Seiji? Those kendo no kata were really marvelous, they were ALIVE, giving more importance to the core, substance of the kata than its formal shell, like I mostly see today.

I practice Daito-ryu because it's one of the only true koryu which is still alive, in which the kata are done not searching an extreme formal perfection for itself, but that teach the substance; you practice kata, but you will be eventually able to step out of them, and apply the techniques freely... this is the purpose of a martial art, effectiveness; if the koryus instead become a sterile repetition of formal and never completely understood movements, then they are already extinguished and it's better to spend your time doing something else.

Jose Garrido
24th June 2006, 13:59
this is the purpose of a martial art, effectiveness; if the koryus instead become a sterile repetition of formal and never completely understood movements, then they are already extinguished and it's better to spend your time doing something else.


Giacomo,
On this point we can agree. The art must be applicable, but the roots must be maintained.

Jose Garrido

Mark Jakabcsin
24th June 2006, 17:59
What is controversial is the question of how much should an extant ryu-ha continue to develop in this day and age. Most would not mind reversals for the methods of another traditional or classical ryu-ha, or further developing /expounding on the principles and methods already in the art. But what about reversals for western fighting methods (boxing, grappling, etc.), or the addition of handgun takeaways? Maybe we should all be wearing street clothes and shoes to better simulate current day encounters?


Nathan,
If would could bring the founders and earlier practioners of the koryu arts through a time machine into today do you think they would be concerned with the threats in today's world? I.E. Would they use their knowledge to create new techniques and tactics to deal with the world/time the now live in or would they simply ignore those threats and continue to train for the threats of a past era?

To answer that question it might help to look at what they did in the era they lived in. Did they develop and train technique and tactics that met the threat of the day? Were they concerned with the other ryu and potential competition and develop specifically to deal with that competition? Our world is much larger than theirs.

As for the wearing of street clothes, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the founders of the koryu arts wear and train in the street clothes of the day/era? Personally I am a big proponet of wear whatever you like, just don't cry if it gets torn or dirty.

Take care,

Mark J.

judasith
24th June 2006, 23:05
Jose, we agree on the fact that the roots must remain. Lucky for us, we have the kata to keep the roots. And, even more lucky, Daito-ryu has for almost every technique one or more variations to help keeping the kata alive.

I disagree completely with people adding fake guns and street clothes in their training, unless you say it beforehand: here I do only street-like defense, no traditional martial arts of any kind.

AND I also believe that some modern budo, in their search for keeping "alive" their art, have in fact destroyed it completely by focusing only on the "sport" aspect. In Italy we have some of the best judoka: what I see is people passing the day doing weight-trainings and bodybuilding... wasn't the point in judo that the small beats the big one?

It's a very difficult balance to keep an art both alive and traditional... as of now, of the older ones I believe mainline Daitoryu (of the various associations) has managed, up until now to reach this goal better than other arts, let's hope that in the future it will stay like this...