Koryu Kenjutsu near me?

[Ronin_21]

Konnichiwa! I am a student of Mjer iaido on vancouver island bc I train under Greg williams (godan) and Denton hewgill (godan) and am fortunate enough to have Ted davis sensei (head of the canadian iaido association 7th dan)teaching here in victoria as well, for a long time I have watched these discussions on forums about the practicality or non practicality of the "Do" arts mainly Iaido.
Now I have been doing Mjer iaido for a year and a half, ive got a nice iaito practice as much as I can and I love it, and for the life of me I cant understand all these people who are talking about the impracticality of it, I mean what is it truly, is it the draws we do? the cuts we do? the types of waza? Or the curriculum? I mean most of it seems to me that if I had a razor sharp shinken, most of the tecniques would be quite practical, I mean maybe not junto sono ichi or ni but those basic tecniques are most likely their just so you can refine your basics, nukitsuke and kiriroshi and noto and the like. But I can see how most of the more advanced tecniques would work quite well in fact, even seiza no bu ippon me mae, two samurai facing eachother, duel to the death, neither is interested in blocking, just the quickest draw and strike and a finishing cut.

So now ive turned this into sort of a split discussion about iaido practicality and if anyone could point me to the nearest school of koryu kenjutsu on or nearest vancouver island. Even if I join kenjutsu , I will never quit iaido, I love it, and it has a beauty and a grace which I admire and enjoy

[Charles Mahan]

Have you discussed this with Williams-sensei?

[Ronin_21]

umm no acually, which part? the wanting to find a kenjutsu school part or the iaido controversy part. partly why I believe so strongly in iaido is because of watching my sensei (greg) do it, he's definately my martial arts idol and the amount of knowledge and skill he has just blows me away.

[ScottUK]

First of all, ask your sensei if you will be practicing the kenjutsu element of MJER. Some do, most don't...

[Brian Owens]

For what it's worth, some schools of MJER refer to themselves as Iaijutsu rather than Iaido, and most will argue that it is a koryu system.

Depending on the branch, you are now some 17 to 21 generations or more removed from the founder, and that would definitely make it a pre-1868 art (one way of classifying what is or is not koryu).

HTH.

[UKPatrick]

Ryan,

I'm surprised Scott did not suggest that you contact Kim Taylor, at Guelph. Kim runs / organises many short seminars on many arts, and there may be a taster week-end you could try, to experience the difference between iaido and kenjutsu

[ScottUK]

Last edited by UKPatrick : Today at 04:39 PM. Reason: misspelling Hehe, check yo sig...

[UKPatrick]

Err, what, dear dojo junior, is wrong with it?

[Ronin_21]

are you reffering to me?

[Chidokan]

I'd stay out of the rather english 'digs' between UKPatrick and ScottUK, you may get hit in the crossfire! :D
Stop confusing the foreigners you two or you'll be required to attend my class for this weekends' seminar in Nottingham. :eek:

[niten ninja]

"Some do, most don't..."


Are the Kenjutsu kata ever taught in at the masamune dojo?

[UKPatrick]

Gentlemen, my appologies and thanks.

Appologies to Ryan if he thought I meant him - I was replying to Scotts post.

Mr Tim, thanks for explaining the situation with upity Scott, and can you please pm the details of the course this week end, I may be free on Saturday, if one days attendance is OK?

Michael, there was a time, about three years ago, that a style of koryu kenjutsu was practised at Masamune on a regular weekly basis. This died about two years and ten months ago, through lack of support. Sensei Goodman is talking about reintroducing it, and in fact, this morning should have been the first session. It is however, a long way for Ryan to come.

In addittion, as nobody turned up, including Fay, the class did not occur. I'll pm you with more detail of whats available in the West Midlands/Warwickshire area that I know about.

[niten ninja]

I actually meant the kenjutsu kata from the MJER. Scott said most dojo don't teach them.

[UKPatrick]

Ah, sorry about that, but with today being the planned intro for Kenjutsu at the dojo, I though you meant that.

No, we are not taught the Tachi Uchi waza at the moment, but we are working on it. Scott has been shown the waza elsewhere, and we pick up a bit from visits to other dojo, but Sensei has not introduced it to the dojo (YET). Feel free to join the list of members requesting it.

[ScottUK]

Err, what, dear dojo junior, is wrong with it?Hehe, bloody Zatoichi... :D

[Kim Taylor]

Hey Patrick

I suspect Ryan isn't heading to Guelph has to do with the several time zones he'd have to cross getting from Vancouver Island to SW Ontario. Although we've had lots of folks from Europe, South Africa and elsewhere over the years.

There's koryu over that end of the country if Ryan wants to do a google search.

Kim.



Ryan,

I'm surprised Scott did not suggest that you contact Kim Taylor, at Guelph. Kim runs / organises many short seminars on many arts, and there may be a taster week-end you could try, to experience the difference between iaido and kenjutsu

[Charles Mahan]

Just so that we're clear. Ryan is already training in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under the auspices of Ted Davis-sensei(through one of his senior students) and ultimately under the auspices of Esaka Seigen-sensei.

The kumi tachi waza are part of the system and lineage in which he trains, but they typically are not taught until students are VERY far into the curriculum. I have seen Esaka-sensei do the Tachi Uchi no Kurai waza as part of an embu which he gave in San Francisco a couple of years ago. Ryan is just a little impatient and wants to start whacking stuff sooner than later.

[ScottUK]

I'm surprised Scott did not suggest that you contact Kim Taylor, at Guelph.Kim,

I DID point out to Pat that the moon is closer to Ryan than you are, but being part Brummie, part Irish and part Londoner he took it on board like a brain-damaged inbred mastiff (that he is...) :D


The kumi tachi waza are part of the system and lineage in which he trains, but they typically are not taught until students are VERY far into the curriculum.Charles,

What elements of the MJER kenjutsu curriculum are taught in your lineage?

[Charles Mahan]

Well I've only been exposed to Tachi Uchi no Kurai, but I know there are at least two more sets of kumi tachi waza. Quite possibly more. There are only just now schools in North America with students sufficiently advanced that kumitachi is becoming an issue. We are not introduced to them here any sooner than we would be in a Japanese dojo.

[ScottUK]

Any of these? (thanks to Earl Hartman)

Tachiuchi no Kurai, 10 forms standing, daito vs. daito
Tsumeai no Kurai (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms in iaihiza, daito vs. daito
Daishozume (Shigenobu Ryu), 8 forms from iaihiza, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
Daisho Tachizume (Shigenobu Ryu), 7 forms standing, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
Daikendori, 10 forms total, 4 forms shoto vs. daito (shoto wins), 6 forms daito vs. daito

[Charles Mahan]

Any of these? (thanks to Earl Hartman)

Tachiuchi no Kurai, 10 forms standing, daito vs. daito
Tsumeai no Kurai (Shigenobu Ryu), 10 forms in iaihiza, daito vs. daito
Daishozume (Shigenobu Ryu), 8 forms from iaihiza, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
Daisho Tachizume (Shigenobu Ryu), 7 forms standing, shoto vs. daito (daito wins)
Daikendori, 10 forms total, 4 forms shoto vs. daito (shoto wins), 6 forms daito vs. daito

Well Tachi Uchi no Kurai has 7 forms in our lineage, although as is sometimes the case, the other 3 could be a seperate set or considered kaewaza. Tsumeai no Kurai is the name of one of the other sets although I don't think it had that many(we're really dancing on the edge of my knowledge here). Could be that it is broken up into multiple sets. I don't recall hearing of shoto forms still being an active part of the system's curriculum, but that doesn't really mean much. The folks in my dojo just being introduced to Tate Hiza probably haven't heard much about Bangai either.

[ScottUK]

The majority of the above are rarer than rocking horse sh*t. I heard someone in the US was teaching Daishozume - wouldn't mind a bit of that...

[SLeclair]

I think I've only seen the three latter sets (Daishozume, Daisho tachi zume, daikendori) in association with Muso Shinden Ryu. It might be a case that it was practiced by both lines before Oe sensei, but fell into disuse after that and is only maintained by certain lines, perhaps predominantly MSR. I know the sets are listed in the Shinden Ryu Hissho, written by Yamakawa Yukio of the Shimomura-ha, and they are also listed in Danzaki sensei's book.

I haven't seen them in the various MJER books I've read (Mitani sensei's and Iwata sensei's, along with another author I can't recall right now). Both Tachi uchi no kurai and Tsumeai no kurai are listed in Mitani's book, and the other book I have.

---
Sebastien L.

[ScottUK]

That book of Mitani's is excellent...

[Brian Owens]

...Tachiuchi no Kurai, 10 forms standing, daito vs. daito...

Well Tachi Uchi no Kurai has 7 forms in our lineage, although as is sometimes the case, the other 3 could be a seperate set or considered kaewaza.
My list for Seito Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Heiho lists these 10, some of which share names with other forms:

Deai
Tsukekomi
Ukenagashi
Ukekomi
Tsukikage
Suigetsuto
Zetsumyoken
Dokumyoken
Shinmyoken
Uchikomi

HTH.

[Erik Tracy]

My list for Seito Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Heiho lists these 10, some of which share names with other forms:

Deai
Tsukekomi
Ukenagashi
Ukekomi
Tsukikage
Suigetsuto
Zetsumyoken
Dokumyoken
Shinmyoken
Uchikomi

HTH.

Brian,
These are the same in our set of Tachi Uchi no Kurai as we practice them in the Jikishin-Kai under Shimabukuro Sensei.

They are introduced a bit earlier in our curriculum to kyusha to start driving home the concepts of distance and timing.

Just different...all good....

Erik Tracy
JKI USA Hombu Dojo,
San Diego

[Brian Owens]

Brian,
These are the same in our set of Tachi Uchi no Kurai as we practice them in the Jikishin-Kai under Shimabukuro Sensei.
That would make sense.

Jikishin-Kai is Seito MJER; Miura Sensei is the Soshi, and Shimabukuro Sensei was his student.

[Charles Mahan]

Let's see if I've got this right...

Deai
Kobushidori
Zetsumyoken
Dokumyoken
Tsubadome
Ukenagashi
Mappo

Some of these might be the same as the Jikishinkai set with different names. I have no way to tell. As I have not yet been introduced to the other sets, I don't have their names handy.

[ZealUK]

Those are the seven Tachi Uchi No Kata that were put together by Oe Masamichi aren't they? There are some pretty big differences between those 7 and the full 10 Tachi Uchi No Kurai.

[Charles Mahan]

I'll have to take your word for the differences. These 7 are the only waza I've seen. I've read the descriptions and seen the pictures in "Flashing Steel" but in most cases I couldn't really make heads or tales of them. Pictures and descriptions aren't really enough.

I have it on pretty good authority that the names of the Tsumeai no Kurai waza are:

Hassou
Kobushi tori
Iwanami
Yaegaki
Urokogaeshi
Kurai yurumi
Tsubame gaeshi
Gan seki otoshi
Sui getsu tou
Kasumi ken
Uchi komi

[SLeclair]

I'll have to take your word for the differences. These 7 are the only waza I've seen. I've read the descriptions and seen the pictures in "Flashing Steel" but in most cases I couldn't really make heads or tales of them. Pictures and descriptions aren't really enough.

I have it on pretty good authority that the names of the Tsumeai no Kurai waza are:

Hassou
Kobushi tori
Iwanami
Yaegaki
Urokogaeshi
Kurai yurumi
Tsubame gaeshi
Gan seki otoshi
Sui getsu tou
Kasumi ken
Uchi komi


I can double-check with Mitani sensei's book if you like. I am pretty sure that the Tachiuchi no Kurai is the 10 waza version. I remember when I researched about it some time back coming accross the info that the 7 waza Tachiuchi no Kurai was created by Oe sensei, as Alex said.

[Kim Taylor]

May I humbly suggest that folks not go into trying to compare the techniques themselves between lines. I learned the Tachi Uchi no Kurai set at three different times in the same "lineage" and was taught VERY different interpretations of the kata each time. I stress this was the same lineage. I've been taught at least two more interpretations from different lines.

With the publication of Mitani's book we are settling down onto his interpretation for the simple convenience of there being a readily available source of reference, and unless I wrote the other stuff down somewhere in my notebooks 10 years ago I wouldn't be surprised if those interpretations have drifted away.

Kim Taylor

[ScottUK]

It's a shame that tachi uchi no kurai and tsumiai no kurai are taught less and less these days. It seems that kata for grading and shiai have taken precedence (by some) and less emphasis is placed on the kenjutsu. :mad:

[A. Bakken]

It's a shame that tachi uchi no kurai and tsumiai no kurai are taught less and less these days. It seems that kata for grading and shiai have taken precedence (by some) and less emphasis is placed on the kenjutsu. :mad:

Maybe it's not so much grading/shiai considerations, but rather the feeling that we Europeans/Americans/etc. are not at the appropriate level for learning the paired forms? At most seminars I've been to, it seems the Japanese sensei tells us to work more on the basics. Maybe they'd rather see better kihon than a lot of people making a mess out of the TUnK? I don't know. I'd love to study this stuff myself, but it seems it will be quite a number of years yet. But hey, Scott - why don't you take up jodo? That'll give you a lot of partner practice, and be very helpful in developing your iai.

[Jonathan Tow]

From my experience of these kata, it's quite difficult to teach them to those who don't yet have a good grasp of the basics.

I've personally found that the Tsumeiai rely a lot on subtleties and small differences in timing that a person early on would struggle with and become frustrated by. Heck, I still get frustrated by the detail at times.

But that's not to say that these sets are "off-limits" - kata like Deai, Ukenagashi, Hasso, Uchikomi can be quite valuable in starting people off on. Then slowly adding to them as their skill level allows. Ultimately comes down to the individual and their teacher.

Best,

Jonathan Tow

[ScottUK]

But hey, Scott - why don't you take up jodo? That'll give you a lot of partner practice, and be very helpful in developing your iai.I do plenty of kumitachi thanks to the kenjutsu I do.

I'm just narked that a lot of the MJER kenjutsu curriculum is not available (for various reasons)...

[Kaoru]

I think I've only seen the three latter sets (Daishozume, Daisho tachi zume, daikendori) in association with Muso Shinden Ryu. It might be a case that it was practiced by both lines before Oe sensei, but fell into disuse after that and is only maintained by certain lines, perhaps predominantly MSR. I know the sets are listed in the Shinden Ryu Hissho, written by Yamakawa Yukio of the Shimomura-ha, and they are also listed in Danzaki sensei's book.

I haven't seen them in the various MJER books I've read (Mitani sensei's and Iwata sensei's, along with another author I can't recall right now). Both Tachi uchi no kurai and Tsumeai no kurai are listed in Mitani's book, and the other book I have.

---
Sebastien L.

This might be a silly question, but how/why do some kata fall into disuse? Since I don't know what time period this is that you are talking about,(Oe-sensei. I don't know who is, and when he lived or is he still living?) I'm not getting this. I know these swordarts were in actual use up until the Meiji era, so I'm just wondering about that. (Not sure if they were beyond that, due to the sword ban in 1876.) I've been reading all this and it is interesting.

Thank you. :)

[Ronin_21]

Ok, here I go trying to explain this, we do every once in a while practice the tachi uchi no kurai, (I believe thats what its called) the paired forms, please dont tell esaka sensei :D we dont do it very often but its fun and obviusly its giving us a better sense of timing and distance. but I hear some people saying that those forms are kenjutsu, im confused now because I thought they were part of the iaido curriculim, what I meant by wanting to find a kenjutsu dojo is an acual class, kenjutsu not iai, the whole class, what consists of a kenjutsu curriculim? forms? paired forms? sparring with some kinda safety equipment and shinai or foam bokutoh or something? forms with katana as opposed to bokutoh? please feel free to divulge all the info you know.

[pgsmith]

Ryan,
You are suffering from a bad case of definitionitis. Kenjutsu means 'the way of the sword'. Depending upon the context, as in all things Japanese, it can have quite a few different meanings. It is most generally used to denote those waza wherein the sword is already drawn. The tachi uchi no kurai are kenjutsu waza. Many schools have varying numbers of kenjutsu waza. They all pretty much consist of two person kata with bokken, very much like the tachi uchi no kurai. Some will use other weapons for uchitachi. Some will use fukuro shinai instead of, or in addition to, bokken. Some school's kata are highly stylized. Some schools have very simple kata. They all have the same desired result though. That is to get your body used to moving according to the precepts of the school without having to engage your brain.

That's the way I see it. Other's opinions may vary.

[Charles Mahan]

It is most generally used to denote those waza wherein the sword is already drawn. The tachi uchi no kurai are kenjutsu waza.

Now who's definitions are mixed up? Only about half of TUNK starts with the sword already drawn ;) So does that make it Ianjtusu? Or perhaps Kaido?

I just can't help myself. Tweaking Paul's nose is so much fun :)

[ScottUK]

This might be a silly question, but how/why do some kata fall into disuse? Not a particularly silly question - some kata stop getting passed from teacher to student for so many reasons. The teacher:

a) doesn't fully understand them/know them
b) doesn't think they are now appropriate
c) would rather practice the elements that are used for grading (seitei - guilty!)
d) the teacher passed away before teaching the okuden waza/kata

...etc etc. I am a bit of a knowledge whore and would love to practice the full curriculum of my iai or kenjutsu school. Now, whether the student is ready or not is a different question. Hyaku - you keep out of this... :D

[Brian Owens]

...Oe-sensei. I don't know who is, and when he lived or is he still living?)
Oe Masamichi Shikei was the 17th headmaster of the Tanimura-ha what is now called Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. He was also considered by some to be the 15th headmaster of the Shimomura-ha, but he left that line, which then split into two factions with two different 15th headmasters. One of those lines became the Muso Shinden Ryu when 16th headmaster Nakayama Hakudo recodified it, but the Shimomura-ha itself died out after two 18th headmasters.

In the mean time, back at the Tanimura-ha, Oe Sensei died without officially naming a successor, and several of his top students claimed the title, leading into further splits of that ha; MJER Tanimura-ha, Seitei MJER Iai Heiho, MJER Sekiguchi-ha, MJER Yamanoichi-ha.

There is also a split into two lines in the "true" Tanimura-ha after their 19th headmaster, Kono Sensei (not the Kono Sensei who is now in Seattle).

I don't have Oe's dates of birth and death handy, but to give you an idea, most of the lines of MJER are now into their 20th to 22nd generation.

HTH.

[Charles Mahan]

Brian,

I must confess some confusion as to which branches your labels apply too. What is Seitei MJER Iai-heiho, and to which group does the term "the true Tanimura-ha" apply? By Sekiguchi-ha do you mean that branch headed by Sekiguchi Komei?

So far as I've been able to determine, only one man is actively using the title of "soke" in an official capacity. I haven't been able to find evidence that Miura-sensei, or Sekiguchi-sensei have taken up the title. That is not to say they do not lead their lines of the style, just a matter of being clear about the actual use of the title. That is also not to say that some of their students do not refer to them as soke. Some of them most certainly do, but what the students do is not necessarily a sign of sentiment at the top. More importantly, I should point out that I'm more than a little disconnected from lines outside of my own. It's entirely possible that others are actively claiming the title and I'm simply not aware of it. If someone with a more intimate connection to leaders of the other branches has some better info on this subject, by all means fill me in.

[Brian Owens]

Brian,

I must confess some confusion as to which branches your labels apply too.

...So far as I've been able to determine, only one man is actively using the title of "soke" in an official capacity.
It is really confusing. I'm building a "family tree" of JSAs, but even my geneology software can't keep track of it all, because of all the inbreeding and crossbreeding.

You'll note that I used the English "headmaster" rather than the Japanese "Soke" precisely because the various lines don't neccesarily use the term "officially" -- and because not all lines may be considered legitimate by members of other lines.


...and to which group does the term "the true Tanimura-ha" apply?
Note that I said, "the 'true' Tanimura-ha" -- with "true" in quotes, because my lineage chart refers to it as such, but I don't know how or why they consider themselves such (or even if "they" actually do; it might be an error in my information).

I'm at work now, but I'll post a list of all the lines as I know them, including who the current "top dogs" of each line are, in the morning.

[Charles Mahan]

I'm at work now, but I'll post a list of all the lines as I know them, including who the current "top dogs" of each line are, in the morning.

That should help me at least figure out which line is which. Thanks. I think we're drifting off topic here though. Apologies to the rest of the those reading the thread.

[Brian Owens]

That should help me at least figure out which line is which. Thanks. I think we're drifting off topic here though. Apologies to the rest of the those reading the thread.
Hopefully, even though it's a bit of thread drift, others will find it of interest.

Here's what I've got so far (any errors are mine alone, and I appreciate any corrections):

"True" Tanimura-ha (as I understand it to be) is represented by Ikeda Takeshi Soke and his Seitokai (Seito Kai?) organization. I have also seen this line referred to as Hokiyama-ha. After Oe Masamichi Shikei (17) the line is Hokiyama Namio (18), Fukui Harumasa (19), Kono Hyakuren (20), Fukui Torao (21) and Ikeda Takeshi (22 - Incumbent). [Charles, this is your line, isn't it?]

I have information on another branch that does not recognize Hokiyama Namio, but skips from Oe Masamichi (17) to Fukui Harumasa (18), Kono Hyakuren (19), and Takeshima Toshio (20 - Incumbent?). I don't know the name of the organization or even if it is still extant. Anyone?

Not to be confused with Seitokai, the similar-sounding Seito MJER Iai Heiho is represented by Miura Takeyuki Hidefusa and his Nippon Kobudo Jikishin Kai organization. I have also seen this line referred to as Masaoka-ha. They branched off from Tanimura-ha after Oe Masamichi (17) with Masaoka Kazumi (18), Narise Sakahiro (19), and Miura Takeyuki (20 - Incumbent).

The Sekiguchi-ha (as I was told it is called) is represented by Sekiguchi Takaaki Komei and his Komei Jyuku Iai Do Kai. (I suspect that "Sekiguchi-ha" isn't correct, since the two "Yamanouchi" lines I show seperated after the 18th generation, and there is no split immediately before or after Sekiguchi Sensei.) I have also heard this line referred to as Yamanouchi-ha, but there is another line with that name on my charts (see below). This lineage is Oe Masamichi (17), Yamanouchi Toyotaka (18), Kono Kanemitsu (19), Onoue Masayoshi (Masamitsu?) (20), and Sekiguchi Takaaki Komei (21 - Incumbent).

The other line I have listed as Yamanouchi-ha I don't have much information on. The lineage I have is Oe Masamichi (17), Yamanouchi Toyotaka (18), Uno Mataji (19), Sakagami Kameo (20), Kawakubo Takaji (21), and Sato Yoshio (22).

Whew! That was a long post. Please forgive the thread drift.

[Charles Mahan]

"True" Tanimura-ha (as I understand it to be) is represented by Ikeda Takeshi Soke and his Seitokai (Seito Kai?) organization. I have also seen this line referred to as Hokiyama-ha. After Oe Masamichi Shikei (17) the line is Hokiyama Namio (18), Fukui Harumasa (19), Kono Hyakuren (20), Fukui Torao (21) and Ikeda Takeshi (22 - Incumbent). [Charles, this is your line, isn't it?]


This is the first time I've seen it listed as "True" Tanimura-ha MJER. I've seen it reffered to as Hokiyama-ha, but only by outsiders. We just refer to it as MJER. <insert standard disclaimer that it's a very big group of folks and that Hokiyama-ha may be in use somewhere by somebody>



I have information on another branch that does not recognize Hokiyama Namio, but skips from Oe Masamichi (17) to Fukui Harumasa (18), Kono Hyakuren (19), and Takeshima Toshio (20 - Incumbent?). I don't know the name of the organization or even if it is still extant. Anyone?

Could this be the branch associated with the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei? I have no idea what the name of their individual organization is. Interesting that this group would skip Hokiyama-soke, include Fukui-soke and Kono-soke, but then break off again after Kono-soke. Just seems peculiar.



Not to be confused with Seitokai, the similar-sounding Seito MJER Iai Heiho is represented by Miura Takeyuki Hidefusa and his Nippon Kobudo Jikishin Kai organization. I have also seen this line referred to as Masaoka-ha. They branched off from Tanimura-ha after Oe Masamichi (17) with Masaoka Kazumi (18), Narise Sakahiro (19), and Miura Takeyuki (20 - Incumbent).

Ahh. You wrote Seitei earlier. I wasn't sure if that was meant to be Seitokai or Seito. Especially considering I was under the impression the Jikishinkai guys usually used Iaijutus instead of Iaiheiho. But then we use both so why can't they?



The Sekiguchi-ha (as I was told it is called) is represented by Sekiguchi Takaaki Komei and his Komei Jyuku Iai Do Kai. (I suspect that "Sekiguchi-ha" isn't correct, since the two "Yamanouchi" lines I show seperated after the 18th generation, and there is no split immediately before or after Sekiguchi Sensei.) I have also heard this line referred to as Yamanouchi-ha, but there is another line with that name on my charts (see below). This lineage is Oe Masamichi (17), Yamanouchi Toyotaka (18), Kono Kanemitsu (19), Onoue Masayoshi (Masamitsu?) (20), and Sekiguchi Takaaki Komei (21 - Incumbent).


Online, I've only seen people refer to this branch as Yamauchi(or Yamanouchi)-ha MJER, or perhaps Komei Jyuku MJER.



The other line I have listed as Yamanouchi-ha I don't have much information on. The lineage I have is Oe Masamichi (17), Yamanouchi Toyotaka (18), Uno Mataji (19), Sakagami Kameo (20), Kawakubo Takaji (21), and Sato Yoshio (22).

I'm sure there's information out there, but I don't have much more than you on this one.

[Chidokan]

I personally think you are all insane trying to work this out.... I reckon even the Japanese dont know.... :D :D :D
Takeshima sensei runs the Chidokan dojo in Kochi, (not the original MJER dojo as that burnt down, but the one that was built to replace it). No organisation as such, (some students are in ZNKR) but they have a hell of a lot of stuff from Oe sensei and his students, presumably because it was handed around the students at that dojo. I've been lucky enough to train there doing TUNK when Iwata sensei took us down to visit, very impressive and dynamic, and Takeshima sensei is a gem of a teacher! His iaijitsu 'style' is again dynamic and reminiscent of the videos I have of Yamamoto Takuji sensei. His class covers the whole of the paired curriculum. The reason why you wont see it taught over here very much may be down to the fact that they prefer not to teach TUNK until godan level! And theres not many of those people about as yet in the west....maybe just enough for a small seminar class????

[Charles Mahan]

That's certainly true within our branch. Aside from the instructors, we've only got 3 newly minted Godan's in the ZNIR/Seitokai branch in the states, and a handful more in Canada. We've got a whole mess of 4th dans coming up the pipe though. Add to that a few folks who have been training a long time, but who have not had the oppurtunity to test as often. They should probably be included somewhere in these groups. Come back in 10 years and I think you'll find TUNK being taught with some regularity across North America.

[Chidokan]

Not sure how many over here in the UK, but in my group there are less than a dozen who would qualify, (and by godan I mean someone who knows ALL the preceding waza and its variants, and has about ten years of experience after gaining that knowledge.) I am guessing the number around Europe (outside UK) would not even hit ten? Anyone know? Maybe we should have a 'super-soke kurottee style' list for the West!!! :D :D :D

[Charles Mahan]

Another example of not being able to compare ranks between orgs I suppose. Looks like we'll need another 10 years, and some Kaewaza before any students on this side of the pond are likely to fit into your list. There are some instructors that certainly fit that bill, but none amount the US trained students. 10 years ago is about the time our particular branch got started over here. You guys had a head start on us.

[pgsmith]

I just can't help myself. Tweaking Paul's nose is so much fun
It's just because I've got so much nose to tweak! :)
(I still think they are kenjutsu waza!)

[Erik Tracy]

It is really confusing. I'm building a "family tree" of JSAs, but even my geneology software can't keep track of it all, because of all the inbreeding and crossbreeding.

You'll note that I used the English "headmaster" rather than the Japanese "Soke" precisely because the various lines don't neccesarily use the term "officially" -- and because not all lines may be considered legitimate by members of other lines.


Note that I said, "the 'true' Tanimura-ha" -- with "true" in quotes, because my lineage chart refers to it as such, but I don't know how or why they consider themselves such (or even if "they" actually do; it might be an error in my information).

I'm at work now, but I'll post a list of all the lines as I know them, including who the current "top dogs" of each line are, in the morning.

Cool!

Another opportunity to post up the MJER lineage chart I've been updating over the past couple of years as a 'sanity project' to keep things straight in my head ;)

http://www.erikt.cts.com/Pictures/MJER-Lineage-v5.gif


It is very likely that I'm to blame for the word choice of 'true' to describe the ryu-ha headed up by Ikeda Takeshi Sensei as it appears on my lineage chart.

As I understand it, it is this line of Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu that holds the *official* credentials as handed down from Oe Masamichi Sensei. Hence, my labeling it as 'true'. Perhaps 'official' is a better word choice?

That there are other Tanimura-ha branches within Eishin-ryu could be construed as a proclomation by Oe Sensei to 'go forth and spread the good word' of iai ;)

Or it could be that because that he did not 'officially' designate a successor, others thought it was their obligation/duty/right to continue the teaching of Eishin-ryu?

Whatever the case we currently have several established ryu-ha of MJER.

As for the use of the term 'soke', I have *never* heard Miura Hanshi referred to as 'soke', nor can I recall anyone within the Jikishin-kai refer to him as such either.

We're all 'family' after all, right? :)
Erik Tracy
Jikishin-kai

[ScottUK]

Any reason why the late Haruna Matsuo isn't on there, seeing as he did so much to increase the knowledge of iai in the West?

[Brian Owens]

Any reason why the late Haruna Matsuo isn't on there, seeing as he did so much to increase the knowledge of iai in the West?
I'm sure many good and even great teachers aren't listed.

The chart is only of headmasters or equivalent.

[Kim Taylor]

Any reason why the late Haruna Matsuo isn't on there, seeing as he did so much to increase the knowledge of iai in the West?

Ummm if you look at the top left chart Scott, under Yamamoto Harusuke you'll find Yamashibu Yoshikazu and then Haruna Matsuo.

However, just to be clear, in all the time I knew Haruna sensei, he never made claim to being head of any lineage.

Yamamoto Harusuke had/has a very strong and vibrant line of students and there's no need to start making claims above and beyond that.

Kim Taylor

[ScottUK]

Thanks. These late nights are killing my eyes... :D

I understand where you're coming from re: his lineage. It's nice to see who taught your teacher's teacher etc etc.

[Brian Owens]

...The chart is only of headmasters or equivalent.

...if you look at the top left chart...you'll find...Haruna Matsuo.
...in all the time I knew Haruna sensei, he never made claim to being head of any lineage.
I misspoke myself.

The numbered lists on Mr. Tracy's chart are of heads of lineages, but the big chart in the upper left looks to be of broader scope.

Sorry for any confusion.

[devourment77]

Online, I've only seen people refer to this branch as Yamauchi(or Yamanouchi)-ha MJER, or perhaps Komei Jyuku MJER.

As far as I know, It is Yamuachi-Ha, I have never heard of it refered to as Sekiguchi-ha (although some people might, I just have never heard of it before). We also call it Komei Jyuku (komei's Group is what it means I believe). Hope it helps.