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Budoka 34
22nd October 2005, 17:35
I recently attended the USJJF Jujitsu Nationals in Akron(Stow), Ohio.

I have to share my excitement over this particular martial sport!
While competition has never been my driving force in Budo, I have competed in Karate, Taekwondo and Judo over the years.

The sport jujitsu trumped them all.
Duo competition consisted of four categories with attacks in each. Kind of along the lines of a freestyle kata.

http://www.usjujitsu.net/competition/duo.htm

The kumite has the punching and kicking of Karate and the throws and grappling of Judo. It made for some very exciting competition! :D

http://www.usjujitsu.net/forms/jjif_rules.pdf

Honestly though, that is not what sold me. What really made it for me was seeing every child, win or loose, get up smiling. :)
The kids just had a blast!

I know several of the Coaches that attended to be very competitive, but the specter of "win at any cost" never raised it head at this event.

The parents and spectators I spoke with were in awe of the format, both Duo and Kumite.

Comments?

MikeWilliams
24th October 2005, 10:23
I'm not a big fan of the (kumite) rules, but the tournaments do sound like fun, and would probably be a safe way to give kids a 'taste' of MMA.

The duo thing sounds more like a glorified display to me. I can't really see the point.

bu-kusa
24th October 2005, 12:15
''The kumite has the punching and kicking of Karate and the throws and grappling of Judo. It made for some very exciting competition!''

Should jujitsu not have the throws and grappling of jujitsu and the punching and kicking of jujitsu?? If not why not just practise judo and karate?? or even better the throws judo/freestyle wrestling, the grappling of Bjj and the punches and kicks of kyokushinkai karate??

MikeWilliams
24th October 2005, 12:32
That's a very good point.

The competition format is semi-contact (I believe), so that would rule out your second option.

With the spread of amateur MMA, 'sport jujutsu' is starting to look a little redundant. But not everyone wants to compete full-contact, and it does seem like Sport JJ would be a good format for kids - or just a good introduction to competition for folks early into their MA careers.

I have problems with a lot of amateur MMA rules too (no head-shots for example), but that's for another discussion.

FWIW, Remco Pardoel (UFC veteran, and now BJJ instructor) started out in sport JJ, as did current UK K1 hopeful Gary 'Smiler' Turner. I'm sure there are others.

Budoka 34
24th October 2005, 18:01
Ok Paul,
Point well made, the statement was made for those not familiar with Jujitsu. :rolleyes:

Mike,
The duo could considered a, " glorified display", but they do allow you to think for yourself. Only the attack is predetermined, you are not limited in your response. The more "realistic" your response the better your score should be.

I agree, the kumite/rondori rules and format could be improved. The USJJF is working in that direction, but has to work with the IJJF. The IJJF appears to hate the idea of adding any rules or formatting that makes it similar to karate kumite, even when said additions may improve the format.

With that being said, I still think it is a great option for both youth and adults interested in competition.

Rogier
7th November 2005, 14:09
The rules are fine at the moment. As far as I've heard there are constant discussions within the IJJF about the direction both the Fighting and Duo systems should take. France is trying to get a bigger judo influence into the game, the Scandinavian countries are trying the same with a karate influence.

The main problem I have with the current set of rules is that there are a lot of so called grey areas. I'm always glad we're on the mat with 3 referees and that there's always the option to discuss what to do.

Budoka 34
7th November 2005, 17:59
I'm always glad we're on the mat with 3 referees and that there's always the option to discuss what to do.

Roger,

I agree wholeheartedly! I really liked the fact that we could stop and discuss a decision. My main areas of contention lie with the terms and application.

Wazari = 1 point?

Ippon = 2 or 3 points?

Why not go with Ippon, Nihon and Sonbon?

And the use of Red and White instead of Aka and Shiro. I would rather see Aka and Ao. This mix of incorrect Japanese and English looks and sounds terrible.

I agree also that they need to clarify some of the scoring criteria.
Though I do like to "full house" as a way to win the match. A good player can win quickly and remain fresh for further matches while providing the spectators with a fantastic show.

BTW good to hear from you.

MikeWilliams
7th November 2005, 18:04
Ippon = 2 or 3 points?


That's my biggest bone of contention too. Ippon should win the fight - especially in the case of submissions (I know throws are sometimes open to judgement, but someone yelping in pain and frantically tapping is pretty conclusive.)

Budoka 34
7th November 2005, 20:44
Mike I'm not sure I follow.

You can win by Ippon. It requires an ippon in part one (striking), part two (throwing) and part three (holding or submission). This is referred to as a "Full House" and is the most efficient way to win.

Do you mean that any submission should end the match?

Rogier
8th November 2005, 07:53
Mike I'm not sure I follow.

You can win by Ippon. It requires an ippon in part one (striking), part two (throwing) and part three (holding or submission). This is referred to as a "Full House" and is the most efficient way to win.

Do you mean that any submission should end the match?

Good god man.... stop calling it 'full house', it's not a poker game. Call it full ippon :D

I still think that for the system we use the full ippon rule is the best way to go. If you go for 1 ippon to finish the game in submissions then you'd sway the whole game in favour of the judo crowd.

I really don't want to see a judo match on my mat.

MikeWilliams
8th November 2005, 10:09
You can win by Ippon. It requires an ippon in part one (striking), part two (throwing) and part three (holding or submission). This is referred to as a "Full House" and is the most efficient way to win.


Maybe I've misunderstood - but the situation I was imagining was when neither player was substantially in the lead (or has enough points to get close to a win) by the time the match reached the holding phase. Player 1 applies jujui gatame, gets the tap, and then the fight re-starts until the points reach the total necessary for the win. I dunno, this just seems strange to me - a bit like re-starting an amateur boxing match after a KO.

But I'll admit to being biased in favour of submission grappling styles. I'll also admit to not having read the rules since the time I was considering competing - that was a good couple of years ago.

Rogier, I take your point about not favouring judo players. That's why they should make the striking phase full-contact. :)

bu-kusa
8th November 2005, 11:23
''France is trying to get a bigger judo influence into the
game, the Scandinavian countries are trying the same with a karate influence.''


So what exactly has karate got to do with ju-jutsu?
In Britain we have the WJJF style groups and there hangers on, ive yet to get a straight answer from any of them about which lineage from jujitsu, aikido judo or karate they came from. But they often decry the sport martial arts there made up off as ineffective? Ive trained recently with a modern Jiujitsu 4th dan – his karate like striking skills were poor compared to a couple of low dan level Wado Ryu, friends i know.

If your taking the best of all arts for competition, why not just do kyokushinkai and BJJ? :)

Rogier
8th November 2005, 11:47
Rogier, I take your point about not favouring judo players. That's why they should make the striking phase full-contact. :)

That would actually be the only way to make it fair for the people who favour striking and kicking to ground work. The nice thing about the current system is that it's semi-contact and I personally prefer it that way.

Rogier
8th November 2005, 12:07
So what exactly has karate got to do with ju-jutsu?

Basically you take some "dirty" judo tricks, the punching and kicking from karate and some of the jiu jitsu tricks that were brought over to Europe starting somewhere in 1900. These things make up the modern style ju jitsu we're talking about. As far as I know you'll never be able to make a link between the modern ju jitsu and the koryu arts.



In Britain we have the WJJF style groups and there hangers on, ive yet to get a straight answer from any of them about which lineage from jujitsu, aikido judo or karate they came from.

As I said you'll be hard pressed to make a connection between the modern art and the koryu arts. What you'll usually see though is that higher graded people (mostly those with influence) have dan grades in both judo and karate or aikido.



But they often decry the sport martial arts there made up off as ineffective?

You'll never hear me say that judo or karate is ineffective. There will always be people saying this, but be honest; Karate people say the same things about judo and vice versa.



Ive trained recently with a modern Jiujitsu 4th dan – his karate like striking skills were poor compared to a couple of low dan level Wado Ryu, friends i know.

You should know better than to judge the art by the one practitioner. Then again I followed the teacher grade A course last year and was appalled by the lack of judo and karate skills that some instructors show.

If you don't know how to punch or kick properly or do a decent throw, don't try to teach it to others (I actually said this and people did not thank me for some reason). Personally I think that if you want to teach a MMA like ju jitsu you need to know your karate and judo as well.

My gradings in judo and karate aren't that high at the moment, but as soon as I get rid of my current injuries I'm starting training for my 1st dan judo.

And to be honest even then you will never be able to compare (just for instance) my 2nd dan ju jitsu against a 2nd dan karate or 2nd dan judo. The curriculum for a 2nd dan ju jitsu is broader than for a 2nd dan karate. We all know that if you try to be a jack of all trades you'll never be especially good at the specific parts of your art.

Then again, try to get a 2nd dan karate to do a decent judo throw......

You're basically comparing apples and pears (is that a correct expression in English?)



If your taking the best of all arts for competition, why not just do kyokushinkai and BJJ? :)

I don't actually think we're taking the best of all arts specifically for competition. The set of rules and forms of competition we currently have reflect the style that we practice and allow the majority of techniques that are part of our curriculum.

bu-kusa
8th November 2005, 13:56
Id just like to thank Rogier van der Peijl, for the information, its very refreshing to have someone tell the truth after some of the things ‘some’ of the British modern Jiujitsu groups bandy around the web as the truth!
I especially agree with the importance of understanding other arts, but I do think it’s a pity the more of the jiu-jitsu people don’t spend a little time in some of the koryu arts, or even judo kata!
(and this could be taken the other way too, strong judo/BJJ randori can be a great wake up call!)

Again thank you mr van der Peijl,

:)

Budoka 34
8th November 2005, 17:09
Good god man.... stop calling it 'full house', it's not a poker game. Call it full ippon

What do you expect from us (Americans)? :rolleyes:

I was taught that at the referee training and it stuck!
They started calling it that due to the hand jesture for full ippon. :)

As a Karate referee I have a hard time referring to it as full ippon since all ippons are full. ;)

Rogier
8th November 2005, 21:49
What do you expect from us (Americans)? :rolleyes:

I was taught that at the referee training and it stuck!
They started calling it that due to the hand jesture for full ippon. :)

As a Karate referee I have a hard time referring to it as full ippon since all ippons are full. ;)

:D they taught us to refer to it as Full Ippon as full house sounds like you're playing poker :D

As a karate referee you must have a hard time giving out points for punches and kicks at ju jitsu matches :D, points for that are far more easily scored than in a karate match.

Budoka 34
9th November 2005, 02:20
Rogier,

Let's just say it was a tad different. ;)

I also got called for not giving Ippons on throws that I thought were only wazari, but met the Ippon criteria. :rolleyes:
Darn Judo guys ruined me.... ;)

In reality I was lucky, at the nationals many of the top competitors are also WKF Kumite competitors. I saw more than my fair share of killer gyakuzuki.

BTW I am going to try to make it to either the World Games in Duisburg, Germany or the JJIF World Championships in Rotterdam next year. Are you going to either I would love the chance to met you?

Rogier
9th November 2005, 12:03
Rogier,

Let's just say it was a tad different. ;)

I also got called for not giving Ippons on throws that I thought were only wazari, but met the Ippon criteria. :rolleyes:
Darn Judo guys ruined me.... ;)

In reality I was lucky, at the nationals many of the top competitors are also WKF Kumite competitors. I saw more than my fair share of killer gyakuzuki.

BTW I am going to try to make it to either the World Games in Duisburg, Germany or the JJIF World Championships in Rotterdam next year. Are you going to either I would love the chance to met you?

I'll probably go to watch the matches. They won't allow me in as a referee as I don't have a international license (still a very lowly graded referee :( )

Budoka 34
9th November 2005, 14:11
They won't allow me in as a referee as I don't have a international license (still a very lowly graded referee )

I have only just received my "State" license as well. I'm still waiting for my referee passport.

I'm hoping several competitors from our school will make the US team. We have had several make the team in the past. That will give me the excuse I need to convince my wife to let me make the trip. ;)

Ubermint
19th November 2005, 21:09
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I competed in a tournament like this once.

It was very fun, though I think the striking scoring could be improved.

I'd like to do so again, but I can't find a schedule of tournaments. The usjujitsu site lists only tournaments outside of the states.

Budoka 34
19th November 2005, 23:36
Devon,

Let me be the first to say welcome to e-budo. Also I must remind you, before the mods have to, to sign your posts with your real name per the use agreement.

We should the number of competitions increase over the next year or so.
It will take time for this style of competition to catch on.

MarkF
20th November 2005, 16:49
While the following link isn't a major competition, it is an introduction of how they are held along with a "mock" tournament. It may not be what you are looking for, but someone may want to attend to understand exactly how the USJJF and JJIF works competitively (and it is in the US).


http://www.usjujitsu.net/events/index.htm#USA


Mark


PS: If anyone has information on USJJF sanctioned tournament events, please use this thread, or post a new one here or in the Seminar Announcement forum in the forum general section. If necessary, I'll copy it from here, leaving a link to the proper forum.

Ubermint
21st November 2005, 20:18
Devon,

Let me be the first to say welcome to e-budo. Also I must remind you, before the mods have to, to sign your posts with your real name per the use agreement.


Thought that was only required in the profile, correcting that now.

What I would like to see is the striking rules being brought more in line with what we see in MMA competitions. Though I don't advocate sport jiujitsu having the same contact level as MMA striking, I think the scoring should reflect more what is seen in MMA. For instance, leg kicks should be scored, and light contact elbows and knees should be allowed. "Good" contact should also be made with strikes, rather than scoring from touches.

Budoka 34
22nd November 2005, 02:57
I've seen some pretty good contact from the karate guys that compete.

I would like to see them clean up the contact and form requirements for a score.
Some of the nonkarate competitors punch like two year olds. ;)

MarkF
23rd November 2005, 22:26
Thought that was only required in the profile, correcting that now.


That is why I didn't say anything and that a member had all ready reminded you. Use the signature function in the "options" section of your user CP and make it your default. Much easier than trying to remember to sign each time.
********

I've only attended a couple of gendai jujutsu shiai but the most noticeable thing about it was the obvious lack of generalized rules and/or lack of standardized refereeing enforcing the rules there were.

I would think that atemi in judo has the same purpose as that of gendai jujutsu, that is, they are not generally finishing strikes but rather they are utilized as another way of off-balancing an opponent. If taught in that way pperhaps the contact may justify the lack of punching power. Kata ate includes striking with many/any part of the body, to include feet, knees, hands, elbows, shoulders, and head.


Mark

Rogier
30th November 2005, 10:51
For instance, leg kicks should be scored, and light contact elbows and knees should be allowed. "Good" contact should also be made with strikes, rather than scoring from touches.

If you look at the men's competition (especially the heavier ones, I used to go at it in <85 kg) there's some nice contact in the stomach area.

Low kicks were taken out for specific reasons, the control of most competitors isn't all that great. Direct punches to the face were allowed up till a few years ago, these were taken out for the same control issue. I've seen more than a few people go out on a stretcher.

Scoring with elbows and knees is actually allowed, competitors usually don’t use them because they are difficult to control in the heat of the fight and if they do hit someone with an elbow or knee (even softly) the referees will usually see the contact as being too hard.

john_lord_b3
11th April 2007, 14:53
Great to know that there is a Sport Jujutsu thread here in E-Budo, and that many E-Budo friends has experiences in it.

Here in Indonesia we don't want to stage a Sport JJ "Kumite" yet. But we will do a try-out for Jujutsu Kata Competition (something like the JJIF Duo System) in the last quarter of this year. The rule will not be 100% similar with the JJIF system though, it will be a "mutual agreement rule" based on our next meeting with heads from other Jujutsu groups in Indonesia.

I'd really love to hear some suggestions and advices from other E-Budo friends with experiences in the Kata competition, things like suggestions about the rules, scoring, etc.

Thank you in advance!

Budoka 34
11th April 2007, 15:12
Mr. Haryo,

Check out the JJIF rules here: http://www.jjifweb.com/html/sub_comp.html

I hope you find them useful.

john_lord_b3
11th April 2007, 16:17
Dear Mr. Kite,

Thank you very much for the link. Yes, very very useful and informative. The pictures are much better than what I have seen long time ago. Now it's more high-quality.

The event in Indonesia will be a multi-style one, so some disputes regarding rules will be expected. That's why we did not plan to copy JJIF rules straight away.

Again, many thanks and your further advice/suggestions will be much appreciated.

Your friend in Budo,

Ben Haryo

kiai
11th April 2007, 19:22
It's a double-edged sword, IMO.

Firstly, the rules need to be clear. But more importantly, they need to be clearly enforced by officials in events; this has been the problem in jujitsu kumite tournaments that I've observed. For example, before one event, everyone was told that strikes to the face were illegal. Halfway through the tournament, the referee was awarding points for pretty strong facial hits. The recipients of the hits ended up being humiliated for following the rules, while the cheaters were rewarded. So before going into a tournament as such, one basically has to make up one's mind whether to cheat or be the sucker.

On the other hand, once the rules are known and well-established, people start "playing" them and adjusting their overall style to tournament techniques and tournament scoring methods. I'm sure the sports jujutsu controversy has been done to death, and I'm not arguing against the concept, though. I do however believe that any kumite, unless it's a real fight, should be seen as a chance to practice techniques in a dynamic setting, essentially as randori, rather than a competition to be won. If the rules, the tournament, and the officials were to embody this ideal, that we are all here to practice good jujutsu and learn from one another, that would be a big step up.

In my short time in kendo an important lesson was that it's better to embody good kendo than score any points and win any shiai.

Moenstah
23rd April 2007, 14:19
My three issues with competition jujutsu are as follows:

1. Judoka have an advantage in the 3 fase system, to the extent that kumite is jokingly referred to as 'kickjudo' (Rogier: dat was Rinus Tegelaar, hij noemde het trapjudo).

2. Most referees have a judo background, without real atemi knowledge, which leads to downright crappy judgements...

(...) Halfway through the tournament, the referee was awarding points for pretty strong facial hits. The recipients of the hits ended up being humiliated for following the rules, while the cheaters were rewarded. (...)

Scoring with elbows and knees is actually allowed, competitors usually don’t use them because they are difficult to control in the heat of the fight and if they do hit someone with an elbow or knee (even softly) the referees will usually see the contact as being too hard.

3. The downgrading effect of competition training, which spreads to the curriculum and regular training.



On the other hand, once the rules are known and well-established, people start "playing" them and adjusting their overall style to tournament techniques and tournament scoring methods.(...)

(...)Low kicks were taken out for specific reasons, the control of most competitors isn't all that great. (...)
IMO they should be included, because they can be safely executed. If the competitors aren't capable of delivering properly controlled lowkicks: well, just punish 'em for it, so they'll learn.

john_lord_b3
23rd April 2007, 15:01
hoe gaat het met jou, meneer moenstah? :)

This is all has been very informative, especially regarding the Sport JJ sparring. However we in Indonesia are more interested in the Duo system. Our first Sport Jujutsu system will not be using the JJIF Duo rules, we will be using a new rule (which is now being discussed by top leaders of various clubs). Any comments and suggestions on how to properly score and judge the performance under the Duo system?

Moenstah
23rd April 2007, 15:10
hoe gaat het met jou, meneer moenstah? :)

This is all has been very informative, especially regarding the Sport JJ sparring. However we in Indonesia are more interested in the Duo system. Our first Sport Jujutsu system will not be using the JJIF Duo rules, we will be using a new rule (which is now being discussed by top leaders of various clubs). Any comments and suggestions on how to properly score and judge the performance under the Duo system?

Goed Ben, de zon schijnt na zes maand weer eens voor langer dan één dag over dit kille moeras.

What is this particular rule you're referring to?

john_lord_b3
23rd April 2007, 16:07
Heh heh, nice to know that hollandsprekken is well represented in E-Budo :)

I am thinking of the most fair and objective way to score the Duo/Jujutsu Kata performance. Like, what to look for, what are the criteria of "correct defense", "correct technique sequence" etc.

We also explore the idea of scoring both the attacker and defender. The attacker will be scored based on the sincerity and good form of his attacks and his way of doing correct ukemi, while the defender will be scored based on his proper timing and execution of the defenses.

Any ideas?

Budoka 34
23rd April 2007, 16:19
Moenstah


1. Judoka have an advantage in the 3 fase system, to the extent that kumite is jokingly referred to as 'kickjudo' (Rogier: dat was Rinus Tegelaar, hij noemde het trapjudo).

That is not as true in the US were some of the higher-level competitors have strong karate and Jiujitsu foundations.


2. Most referees have a judo background, without real atemi knowledge, which leads to downright crappy judgements...

This seems to be changing rapidly with more and more referees coming form diverse backgrounds. I was a karate referee for years before I took my USJJF certification and had a background in Karate, Jiujitsu and Judo.


3. The downgrading effect of competition training, which spreads to the curriculum and regular training.


IMO they should be included, because they can be safely executed. If the competitors aren't capable of delivering properly controlled lowkicks: well, just punish 'em for it, so they'll learn.

I have not seem that here.
Be patient. Low kicks and face punches will return when the level of competitors has risen.
Along the lines of your previous statement Judoka currently make up a fair amount of the international competitors; IMO, they need time to learn the new game and play it safely.

Moenstah
23rd April 2007, 17:09
Well, let's hope you're right Budoka34 in your prediction and that as a result the US jujutsuka will wipe the floor with their Dutch counterparts. The influence of the judoka could be broken as well in the upper echelons of the JBN (dutch judo association) as on the mat. It might even trick me into jujutsu again. :rolleyes:

Personnally I don't see it happen within this decade. :nono:

kiai
23rd April 2007, 18:53
Who else is going to try to develop a safe, valid jujutsu kumite system?

When we do randori in the dojo, it ends up being judo randori, with no shiai orientation (either nagewaza or newaza, with newaza a little more ramped up). We have practice vs. live fire atemi, but there is a clear uke and tori, and uke has to be smart in the level of resistance. This practice mostly relates to getting through ma-ai and getting kuzushi for a technique; once the kansetsu waza is correctly set up, resistance should stop. This goes back to the Kano idea of randori, in which the uke only falls for correct technique. As such, uke needs to be at dan level in order to judge the amount of resistance.

The duo system that we have is ok, but there is very little incentive for being a good uke. It would be interesting to judge the uke as well -- you don't practice jujutsu alone.

But then where does this leave sport jujutsu? I think there is no perfect system that will correctly represent jujutsu and also be safe. To be safe, one will have to compromise and virtually eliminate standing kansetsu waza. More importantly, strong standards for referees and a strong governing body are necessary to maintain the integrity of the contest -- if the rules are arbitrary, the safety level goes down, as competitors are forced to inductively find out what will or won't fly. There is a value to shiai, no doubt about it. It just needs to be as fair and safe as possible. Those who want to beat their brains in can do UFC or go old school, picking fights in rough neighborhoods to test their jujutsu (just better hope they can dodge bullets).

MikeWilliams
23rd April 2007, 22:03
Who else is going to try to develop a safe, valid jujutsu kumite system? ...

Sorry, just had to take issue with this. The system you seek exists, and it's called MMA.


Those who want to beat their brains in can do UFC ...

Thousands of people train MMA every day perfectly safely. In fact, I have seen significantly fewer injuries in MMA training than when I was doing jujutsu.

Moreover, there are a variety of rulesets which allow amateurs to compete at a level to suit them - from pure sub grappling, to "no headshots" to "no strikes on the ground" to full pro UFC-style rules.
Just about the only thing that isn't catered for is "semi contact" stand-up striking - but that's what Sport-JJ kumite is for, and in any case I question the validity of training for semi-contact competition.

If you believe that MMA practitioners just "beat in their brains", but you are frustrated by the lack of competitive outlets for jujutsu, then you owe it to yourself to get down to a decent MMA gym. I think you will like what you see.

[/sermon]

kiai
24th April 2007, 03:09
Actually, I'm pretty happy with randori, and if I feel I need to "test my skills" in live fire, Baltimore's just down the road...

Budoka 34
24th April 2007, 13:04
Well, let's hope you're right Budoka34 in your prediction and that as a result the US jujutsuka will wipe the floor with their Dutch counterparts.

Moenstah,

Having seen some of the Dutch competitors you might need to give us a few years... ;)

john_lord_b3
25th April 2007, 12:40
The duo system that we have is ok, but there is very little incentive for being a good uke. It would be interesting to judge the uke as well -- you don't practice jujutsu alone.


Yes that was my thoughts also. That is why in our upcoming tournament we will score the Uke as well, for the 'cleanliness' of his/her falls and the sincerity of the attacks.

Rogier
27th April 2007, 17:34
Moenstah,

Having seen some of the Dutch competitors you might need to give us a few years... ;)

Long time no post from my side...... (oh my god.... he's back...).

I went to the world games in Rotterdam and saw the US competitors and must say they simply weren't ready for the competition. I did notice however that their coach was putting everything to videotape. I'll make a bet with just about anyone that in the following 3 to 4 years we'll see a great leap in the sparring 'skills' of the US competitors.

They'll start bringing home the gold some day soon now!

Budoka 34
28th April 2007, 01:27
Rogier,

Good to see your still around. I wish I could have been there.

I re-enlisted in the National Guard and had to take a break from the Dojo and refereeing.
I've heard we also had a change of head coach for the US team. Mr. DeLeon is a great gentleman and excellent coach. I'll be interested to see how the change affects the US teams performance.