Keysi Fighting Method

[medickev]

So what's with this Keysi Fighting Method? I just got the special edition Batman Begins DVD set and the KFM is talked about.

I also read an article in MAI about KFM.

From what I have seen it looks exactly like what I am doing at the moment.

Judo, Muay Thai and a bit of Aikido elements are all visible in KFM.

Do we really need another martial art invented by another person who claims to have created another perfect fighting system. First we had Bruce Lee, then that numpty Mike Vamplew and his Vambudo (who was a disgruntled TaeKwonDo guy and his system is nothing more than TaeKwonDo with some Jujutsu elements. He was in our Jujutsu club and only got up to Green belt before leaving to start his Vambudo!)

We have several others in our areas with urban combat sounding names.

What makes KFM different? The techniques look eaxactly the same to those I am currently using and let's face it a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick.

Lee Morrison's stuff looks good though and I have booked a training session with him in 2 weeks. He concentrates on gross motor functions.

Someone must know about this KFM stuff.

[niten ninja]

Someone on another board said that one of the principles of it is that you only move forward, never steping back. Not sure if it's true or not though.

[medickev]

Even if that is a principle of KFM they haven't invented this. Ueshiba said this back when he invented Aikido.

It all sounds like martial arts in jogging bottoms to me and I think it belongs in bad budo.

Sounds like someone else has created yet another system which has simply combined techniques from existing arts and given it a fancy name.

One of the founders of this new system knew Buster Reeves and used it in the Batman film and all of a sudden everyone thinks it's a fantastic system just like they did with Bruce's Jeet Kune Do. Well people these films are FILMS and they have STUNTS and STUNT MEN and CHOREOGRAPHED and REHEARSED fights.

I am not knocking KFM I just want to know what it is and I would like some proof that it is not just another "young" western invented system.

[niten ninja]

Well to be honest not allowing yourself to step backwards sounds pretty stupid.

[medickev]

Contacted KFM today and the only person I got to speak to was a young Woman. I was constantly told that the founder grew up in a mining town in Yorkshire and as a miner was obviously pretty tough and fought other miners who were all convicts????!!!????

She could not explain why KFM was different and said I had to "see it". I have been invited to a class but hey it's over 300 miles away from me and there are none near me so that's might convenient.

Have been searching the web and there are some awfully young and naive looking teenagers teaching this system. It looks as though they have passed levels and passed an instructor's course but I would not want to learn from them. Would rather learn from someone who has been in a real fight.

I have seen some footage and it looks exactly like Jujutsu and kickboxing with a bit of Aikido.

I fear that yet again we have another "miracle system" which claims to kick the arse of all other systems.

Think I'll stick to Judo and Muay Thai.

[bu-kusa]

''Keysi Fighting Method, also known as Keysi and KFM is a Jeet Kune Do off-shoot martial arts style developed by Justo Dieguez about 20 years ago.''

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keysi_Fighting_Method


hence why it looks like some muey thai and judo :)

[medickev]

I have just been invited to an instructor development seminar. I think the dollar signs have flashed in front of Mr Diego. How can anyone walk off the street and become an instructor in this system? Who is teaching these new instructors? Are they also instructors who have come in from the street?

[medickev]

An offshoot of JKD? A good brazilian Jujutsu player would kick Bruce Lee's arse. I guarantee that any grappler will beat any striker hands down and day. A grappler who can strike as well? That's what I'm aiming to be. I am currently training Judo and am looking into Muay Thai. I have a weights bench on order and 100 kilos of weights. I will be hitting the bench as soon as it gets here. With proper nutrition and a suitable weights programme I can improve my strength.

I believe that my Judo and Muay Thai will make me one of the most efficient fighters I can be.

I agree with some comments I have read elsewhere that it is not the system that is important but the way that you train. I think the reason boxers are so effective is because of the way they train with the heavy bags. I think this is the reason that systems such as TKD are so ineffective.

I want to combine the training methods of a boxer with the techniques of Judo and Muay Thai and hit the weights to improve my general strength. The nutrition will help with my general health as well as my stamina, fitness, strength and physique.

The key with boxing is that a boxer knows that if he gets hit it isn't the end of the world. They are trained to accept that in a fight they will get hit. There are too many people in this world who's expectations of a fight are what they have seen in Hollywood. You know what I say about Hollywood? Hollywood is the illusion of competence.

See what I have done there? I have just created my own system. Do I give it a fancy name? Do I pretend that it is the best thing since sliced bread? No, I am just changing the way I am training.

[niten ninja]

You've done it now, there will be Bruce Lee fan Boys all over the board soon...

[Alex Dale]

Mr. Fisher,


I don't usually post in this section of the forum, but I'm curious:


What's the goal of your martial arts training? Do you want to be a NHB-type fighter, i.e. UFC, PRIDE, K-1, etc, or what?


Just curious.



Regards,

[twayman]

Mr. Fisher,
...What's the goal of your martial arts training? Do you want to be a NHB-type fighter, i.e. UFC, PRIDE, K-1, etc, or what?


I was wondering the same thing.

[kimiwane]

used it in the Batman film and all of a sudden everyone thinks it's a fantastic system just like they did with Bruce's Jeet Kune Do. Well people these films are FILMS and they have STUNTS and STUNT MEN and CHOREOGRAPHED and REHEARSED fights.

Recently, I've been watching a video called "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey" or something like that.

Interesting. He died when I was about 17. I didn't know he had played Kato in the Green Hornet. I had a little karate experience by then, had never seen the original Kung Fu TV movie, didn't know about Jeet Kune Do or much besides the names Karate and Judo.

But 33 years later, I get a better perspective on him. I see him now and I think that his experience was actually pretty shallow to say the things he said. Talking about a system of no system, way of no way, and so on, the Classical Mess, and Real Chinese Culture. He contradicts himself and seems confused in certain ways. He obviously had some great talent, but stands as an example of lack of cultivation.

The movie features Linda Lee telling the story of Man Jack Wong's "challenge" to Lee and how that fight went. I've also read the other side of that story and find it far more credible. After all, the Real Chinese Culture includes things like systems and specializations. And while claiming to defend and properly represent Chinese culture, he tossed a lot of it out the window. He was an extremely angry man.

Yet, a lot of what he talked about in Jeet Kune Do sounded like ordinary descriptions of baguazhang. It has various choreographed forms and two-man sets, but the ideals of application are to be spontaneous and near formless. And baguazhang has been around a long time. So it was available when Bruce was young and he could have trained deeply in that to reach his aim. But he rejected it and tried to reinvent the circle.

Then again, it seems that Man Jack Wong may have been trained in bagua. Does anyone know?

If that were the case, he would not have studied it so that he could avoid saying Wong had something Bruce didn't have.

Bruce was really cretive and very motivated, but, frankly, his technical repertoire was really limited to Wing Chun. I know, he "studied" Northern Shaolin and such, but it was self-teaching out of books. Yip Man is the only person he acknowledged as his teacher. He rejected many great masters to become a famous dead man at 32.

[sean_stonehart]

Wong Sifu's name is Wong, Jack Man.

He studied Bak Siu Lum, Lo Han, Taiji & Xingyi.

For more info on Wong Sifu, check out http://www.jingmo.com/wongjackman.html

or his students at

http://www.jingmo.org for Sifu(s) Leung, Louie & Chin.

http://www.jingmo.com for Sifu Rick Wing

All of them are Wong Sifu's students.

[powerof0ne]

Someone on another board said that one of the principles of it is that you only move forward, never steping back. Not sure if it's true or not though.

This is also very prevalent in many Muay Thai camps; even also adding for every step you take back means stepping forward twice. This is why if you ever watch some of the more "classical" thaiboxers fight they keep "marching" forward.

[powerof0ne]

An offshoot of JKD? A good brazilian Jujutsu player would kick Bruce Lee's arse. I guarantee that any grappler will beat any striker hands down and day. A grappler who can strike as well? That's what I'm aiming to be. I am currently training Judo and am looking into Muay Thai. I have a weights bench on order and 100 kilos of weights. I will be hitting the bench as soon as it gets here. With proper nutrition and a suitable weights programme I can improve my strength.

I believe that my Judo and Muay Thai will make me one of the most efficient fighters I can be.

I agree with some comments I have read elsewhere that it is not the system that is important but the way that you train. I think the reason boxers are so effective is because of the way they train with the heavy bags. I think this is the reason that systems such as TKD are so ineffective.

I want to combine the training methods of a boxer with the techniques of Judo and Muay Thai and hit the weights to improve my general strength. The nutrition will help with my general health as well as my stamina, fitness, strength and physique.

The key with boxing is that a boxer knows that if he gets hit it isn't the end of the world. They are trained to accept that in a fight they will get hit. There are too many people in this world who's expectations of a fight are what they have seen in Hollywood. You know what I say about Hollywood? Hollywood is the illusion of competence.

See what I have done there? I have just created my own system. Do I give it a fancy name? Do I pretend that it is the best thing since sliced bread? No, I am just changing the way I am training.

wow, I don't know where to start with this...
First of all I'm curious what kyu are you in Judo? I have never trained in Tae Kwon Do but respect some TKD practitioners. Just because their are very many commercialized TKD schools doesn't mean all of them are. Something you should know is that many of the Muay Thai masters from Thailand have a huge background in "old school" Tae Kwon Do. Many Thaiboxers from Thailand combine TKD kicks with Muay Thai kicks. Look up guys like Master Sken and Master Toddy if you don't believe me.
You don't do BJJ, so why are you talking about a bjj player kicking Bruce Lee's !!!? I like both BJJ and Judo but just a few hours ago I had an argument with a muay thai student of mine that also does bjj becuause he was putting down Judo. Many BJJ guys I know unfortunately put down Judo like you're putting down TKD in your post.
The main reason I keep hearing is basically this: "besides Karo who else can make Judo work without a gi?"(before you judoka yell at me I like Judo!).
Bag work is only a fraction of what makes boxing good..many people, including myself would argue that proper padwork is of greater aid than bagwork. No, you and your friend that you try to get to hold pads for you without never being trained won't be able to do it right. YOu have to train in a real boxing gym or a muay thai(maybe a kickboxing)gym to learn how to hold pads right. Bag work is good for strength/cardio training but not really for developing when to throw a combination/counter/or defense. Pad work does all of these when done properly.
I think you kind of got a good general idea but need to get your facts straight a little bit. I can't knock you for wanting to train in Judo and Muay Thai but don't assume that every TKD guy can't fight. I'll say the same thing to BJJ practitioners about Judo...assuming will get your arse kicked.

[Jock Armstrong]

Amen Brian

[hectokan]

QUOTE by kimiwane,Recently, I've been watching a video called "Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey" or something like that.

Reply,I hope you watched more than one single video before feeling confident enough to rip him.

Quote by Kimiwane,But 33 years later, I get a better perspective on him. I see him now and I think that his experience was actually pretty shallow to say the things he said. Talking about a system of no system, way of no way, and so on, the Classical Mess, and Real Chinese Culture. He contradicts himself and seems confused in certain ways. He obviously had some great talent, but stands as an example of lack of cultivation.

Reply,Actually his experience for that time period (over 30 yrs ago)was leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of people for that era.It is the prototype that is used today for many MMA practicioners that crosstrain around the world.If you don't understand what he meant by "way as no way or system as no system then you need to read more about his life his art and writings like the tao of jeet kun -do.

Quote by kimiwane,The movie features Linda Lee telling the story of Man Jack Wong's "challenge" to Lee and how that fight went. I've also read the other side of that story and find it far more credible. After all, the Real Chinese Culture includes things like systems and specializations. And while claiming to defend and properly represent Chinese culture, he tossed a lot of it out the window. He was an extremely angry man.

Reply,Just because he felt a lot of nationalistic pride for being chinnese does not mean he felt the systems and specializations of the arts could not be improved upon.he did not toss everytyhing out the window,just the classical mess as he likes to point out.

Quoted by Kiminawe,Yet, a lot of what he talked about in Jeet Kune Do sounded like ordinary descriptions of baguazhang. It has various choreographed forms and two-man sets, but the ideals of application are to be spontaneous and near formless. And baguazhang has been around a long time. So it was available when Bruce was young and he could have trained deeply in that to reach his aim. But he rejected it and tried to reinvent the circle.

Reply,never heard of this connection before!



Quoted by Kiminawe,Bruce was really cretive and very motivated, but, frankly, his technical repertoire was really limited to Wing Chun. I know, he "studied" Northern Shaolin and such, but it was self-teaching out of books. Yip Man is the only person he acknowledged as his teacher. He rejected many great masters to become a famous dead man at 32.

Reply,First of all I find it hillarious that Bruce is even mentioned as being limited to win chun,if anything Bruce was better known for discarding his Win chun roots and learning many other fighting disciplines.As far as him rejecting other great masters he was known to train with the likes of gene lebell,wally jay,Hayward nishioka and the legendary Joe lewis just to name a few.

[cxt]

Medickev

You said:

"I guarentee that any grappler will beat any striker"

ANY grappler?-no matter how "green" or unskilled, or clumsy?

No matter how much of a slacker they are?

No matter how skilled and hard and tough their oppt?

Wow! Cool---since I used to wrestle that makes ME totally unbeatable by strikers.

Hear THAT "Iron" MIke Tyson?

Your mine--unless Medikev gets to you first!

And here I thought that martial arts really came down to personal skill, drive and dedication and good solid teaching to get better.

And all I needed to do was train the way Medickev tells me too and I could be unbeatable.

Wish I had known that 20 years ago..

Sheesh........;)


Chris Thomas

[Finny]

Just a couple of things...

Hector - Bruce Lee's philosophy, and general attitude towards MA, had been around for years - indeed, as long as MA have been around. A lot of his philosphical diatribes on MA were simply a product of the times he was living in - it was the hippy era, and most of his stuff is just generic hippy 'philosophy' repackaged and applied to MA.

Kimiwane - Depending on what you mean by "a long time", bagua has not really been around that long - Dong Hai Chuan created/publicised it around the turn of the century, so it's only about a century old. Also, although I understand there are a couple of Cheng style Bagua guys in Hong Kong, it's not a southern chinese art like Wing Chun or Choy Lee Fut, so is not as common in Hong Kong. Which could explain why Bruce didn't learn bagua.

[Bustillo, A.]

Just a couple of things...

Hector - Bruce Lee's philosophy, and general attitude towards MA, had been around for years - indeed, as long as MA have been around. A lot of his philosphical diatribes on MA were simply a product of the times he was living in - it was the hippy era, and most of his stuff is just generic hippy 'philosophy' repackaged and applied to MA.
.

In part you're right that some of his ideas may stem from "the product of the times."

Yet , like you mentioned, others had been around for years and it wasn't simply hippy stuff. A great deal of Bruce Lee's philosophy goes a lot deeper. One example is the concept of "the way of no way" which makes most traditional martial artist's mind go Tilt.

[hectokan]

Hector - Bruce Lee's philosophy, and general attitude towards MA, had been around for years - indeed, as long as MA have been around. A lot of his philosphical diatribes on MA were simply a product of the times he was living in - it was the hippy era, and most of his stuff is just generic hippy 'philosophy' repackaged and applied to MA.



Sure the Bruce lee philosophy might have been around for years before his time but during his time most of the population thought that their particular system or style was the best.A karate man always thought his !!!! was the bomb,a judo man always thought his game was unbeatable and a kung fu man believed along the same mental thought process. Not that things have changed much if any in that dept but by in large today you have a larger mass of practcioners that don't adhere to that silly dogma one bit,as they realize that It's all good,thanks to Bruce

Regardless of wether Bruce was really the best or not(I happen to believe he was a pretty good practicioner myself)outside of the movie screen persona it was his popularity along with his own personal beliefs that got a lot people thinking (thanks to his popularity ofcourse)more outside the lines of strict traditions.This way of thinking is not really a hippy thing or even a generic one.As a matter of fact I happened to have trained side by side next to a lot of hippies of that era that smoked more ganja than most of the opium kung fu masters did when they were trying to figure out how animal movements related to fighting.

A lot of those hippie friends expanded their mindset even more deeply into stricter traditions and most went completely in the opposite direction of bruce intentions,most still cannot grasp or understand bruce message after 30 odd years of mind altering colombian gold invasions. lol

Different strokes(or stokes in this case) for different folks.

[jailess]

A great deal of Bruce Lee's philosophy goes a lot deeper. One example is the concept of "the way of no way" which makes most traditional martial artist's mind go Tilt.
I'd disagree with you, there - recently on the ShorinjiKempo forum we've been having a debate about the meaning of Shu-Ha-Ri, which I'm sure loads of you know more about than me (I'm a 23-year-old baby Budoka!). But the 'way of no way' and 'form of no form' sound a lot to me like high-level martial arts, ie you break the mold and develop your own style, whilst still keeping within the confines of your martial art.

An Aikidoka or a Karateka is always going to look like an aikidoka/karateka in a fight - but they aren't going to apply a robocop-style "He is punching me in the head I must move my arm up now and then I will block him and then I will counter now" mentality (like I do at the moment) - rather they'll simply react and use whatever works at that moment.

As for 'Any grappler could beat any striker', well, that's probably true - in an MMA competition with MMA rules where you aren't allowed to kick them in the goolies or you can't run away and you're both thinking about lasting 3/5/12 rounds of 3 minutes each.

In a streetfight? It's usually whomever throws the first punch that wins, is it not? In that case, learning to hit really really really hard is probably the best success plan, ie the situation is reversed, and striking is the best strategy.

[niten ninja]

You're right Shu-Ha-Ri does sound similiar. The problem I have with Bruce Lee's amazing philosophy is that it is a bit obvious.

As for 'Any grappler could beat any striker', well, that's probably true - in an MMA competition with MMA rules where you aren't allowed to kick them in the goolies or you can't run away and you're both thinking about lasting 3/5/12 rounds of 3 minutes each.

That attack is very over rated. A possible reason for the success of some MA over others, is that some arts like BJJ have a large percentage of people who train for it. How many koryu jujutsu people do you know train for MMA? Probably not many.

"In a streetfight? It's usually whomever throws the first punch that wins, is it not? In that case, learning to hit really really really hard is probably the best success plan, ie the situation is reversed, and striking is the best"

I prefer to run away.

[Alex Dale]

How many koryu jujutsu people do you know train for MMA?


None.


Regards,

[Bustillo, A.]

I'd disagree with you, there - recently on the ShorinjiKempo forum we've been having a debate about the meaning of Shu-Ha-Ri, which I'm sure loads of you know more about than me But the 'way of no way' and 'form of no form' sound a lot to me like high-level martial arts, ie you break the mold and develop your own style, whilst still keeping within the confines of your martial art.
.

niten ninja wrote
You're right Shu-Ha-Ri does sound similiar. The problem I have with Bruce Lee's amazing philosophy is that it is a bit obvious.

---------------------------------------------
A. B. writes
I would ask if you guys are joking but I take it you're not. Good or bad, whether we agree one is better or not just the mere fact of how systems like shorinji kempo, chinese kung fu, Okinawan, Japanese arts are taught and passed down... kata, training structure and methods sets it apart from Bruce Lee ideas. And 33 years later some of his ideas are still way ahead of what a lot of martial artisits are doing today.

That's what's obvious.

[niten ninja]

"And 33 years later some of his ideas are still way ahead of what a lot of martial artisits are doing today."

Which ones?

"None."

It was a retorical question.

[Maddog Mitchell]

How about crosstraining in different arts? Bruce was one of the first who began really doing this to another level. I'm not talking about Shorin Ryu guys visiting a Goju dojo either.

He did his Wing Chun, trained graplling techniques with Gene Lebell which can be seen in Enter the Dragon with Samo Hung, he worked Korean arts with Jhoon Rhee and Chuck Norris to help with hois striking and studied Filipino Arts with his own student and protege Dan Inosanto.

Dan took this and ran with it as he has incorporated BJJ and Muay Thai into his arsenal as well

Recently after the Abu Dhabi Comabt Championships more BJJ people are cross training with Judo, Sambo and Wrestlers to further their own knowledge.

So in a sense his ideas on crosstraining have still been in use.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

[Jock Armstrong]

I run with what an old hard head told me in a bar once as a young fella.

Hard head; Just remember the old "one -three!"

callow youth; Don't you mean the old one two?

hard head; no, you usually get that one........

[twayman]

As for 'Any grappler could beat any striker', well, that's probably true - in an MMA competition with MMA rules where you aren't allowed to kick them in the goolies or you can't run away and you're both thinking about lasting 3/5/12 rounds of 3 minutes each.

"In a streetfight? It's usually whomever throws the first punch that wins, is it not? In that case, learning to hit really really really hard is probably the best success plan, ie the situation is reversed, and striking is the best"

I prefer to run away.

Yes if you are playing "by the rules" then the art that it favors has the advantage. But, in the street there are no rules. Usually the first one to stick his fingers in the others eyes wins...

I prefer to strike vitals and break hands before they reach me. ;)

[Maddog Mitchell]

Mr. Kelley

In your 18 years have you been in alot of street fights?

I can tell you in my 38 years many street fights end up on the ground. It's not always who hits first, but at times it is who hits first. A clinch or grab usually happens as well, even if it's just to grab and hit the person.

Some who know me on here know I've been a Bouncer in Miami and Fort Lauderdale, and still am, for a number of years. I've seen many encounters and some numerous times in one night, grappling or a knowledge of it is essential.

I do prefer striking as that is what I do best, but my limited experience in grappling has helped me immensely.

Regards,

Mike Mitchell

[Jock Armstrong]

I have to run with the old "Maddog" on that one . The usual reason for fights winding up on the ground is that the protagonists are either 1] drunk 2] not actually any good at fighting standing up 3] Both.

I only wound up on the ground twice in ten years- however, you need to know what to do when you get there! They were both multiple opponent fracas and my first concern was getting back onto my feet so I wouldn't get stomped to death.

As for any grappler will beat any striker- sheer bollocks. Its the individual who wins or loses, not the style. If you want to be "street effective" learn grappling and striking. There are plenty of grapplers who can't strike well, and plenty of strikers who can't grapple. They are all at a disadvantage.

[Maddog Mitchell]

Great Post Jock!

:beer:

Cheers Mate!

Mike Mitchell

[hectokan]

Jeet kune do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and since Jeet kune do has no style,it can fit in with all styles.As a result,Jeet kune do utilizes all ways and is bound by none and, likewise,uses any techniques or means which serves it's end.

[niten ninja]

"In your 18 years have you been in alot of street fights?"

Does getting pounded into the ground count?

"I can tell you in my 38 years many street fights end up on the ground. It's not always who hits first, but at times it is who hits first. A clinch or grab usually happens as well, even if it's just to grab and hit the person."

I never said they didn't, I think my quoting is confusing people.

"Jeet kune do favors formlessness so that it can assume all forms and since Jeet kune do has no style,it can fit in with all styles.As a result,Jeet kune do utilizes all ways and is bound by none and, likewise,uses any techniques or means which serves it's end."

How about crosstraining in different arts?

No one had ever done that before...
That doesn't sound very revolutionary.

[kenkyusha]

How about crosstraining in different arts? Bruce was one of the first who began really doing this to another level. I'm not talking about Shorin Ryu guys visiting a Goju dojo either.
snip
W/all due respect, Musha shugyo was not just a period of intensive self-training, but often involved taking (at least aspects of) 'new' approaches into one's art... this was popular in Edo... Kano had many practitioners of other (not just 'jujutsu') arts at the Kodokan...

Be well,
Jigme

[Bustillo, A.]

W/all due respect, Musha shugyo was not just a period of intensive self-training, but often involved taking (at least aspects of) 'new' approaches into one's art... this was popular in Edo... Kano had many practitioners of other (not just 'jujutsu') arts at the Kodokan...

Be well,
Jigme

Good point. But during his era, mid 1960s to early 1970s, --and even now--most traditional martial artist didn't venture out of what they consider a traditional art. Fine if that's what they decide but they then can not be considered doing serious cross-training or experimenting with other ideas and methods. For the most part, due to the "because sensei said so" syndrome they didn't dare deviate much from the methods of the system.


Examples of the "because sensei said so syndrome."

Karaetka on mawashi geri.
"Do what... kick like what was that you called it, Muay thai style.... not chambering my kick and pulling snapping it back. Sensei didn't teach it like that. That's no roundhouse."

karateka on punching.
"DO WHAT? Punch like a boxer? You mean no pulling my punch back to the hip . Are you crazy. I already know I ihave a good punch because sensei says we're punching correctly when we hear the gi snap. Sensei didn't teach us to do those boxing style uppercuts and hooks.!"

Last one.

"Keep my hands up while fighting to protect my face? Lord no. It's not in the kata..."

[niten ninja]

It's true perhaps that people seemed to had forgotten to crosstrain.

[jailess]

So does everyone here crosstrain? or do you all have one MA that you stick to and occasionally venture out into another?

Shorinji Kempo's the only one I do, but I'd like to do Aikido as well later on, when I'm a bit older - in Glasgow there's a few very very good Aikido Sensei that I'd like to train under...

[bu-kusa]

please see

http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/IanAbernethy/default.htm

quote

Geoff Thompson. I have always taught karate as an all-encompassing art, and this book - to me - proves that it really is. Why does the watered down karate that reaches the dojos not represent the karate-concentrate that you portray in this book?

IA. There are many historical reasons for this - that would be too lengthy to go into here - but I feel the main problem is the undervaluing of the katas in favour of the art's sporting aspect. Many people belittle karate's sporting side and I feel this is fundamentally wrong. Sport karate is exiting to watch and requires great skill. It has also benefited karate as a whole through the introduction of more productive and scientific training methods. The problem occurs when we try to take the methods of one environment and try to apply them in another. Sport karate has evolved from sparring based upon the "one blow-one kill" concept and hence does not permit many of karate's close range techniques on the grounds that should a specific technique be delivered with force the fight would be over. Many of the more dangerous techniques are also omitted for the safety of the participants, e.g. groin strikes. The use of sporting techniques in a real fight will lead to defeat as sure as using the katas techniques in competition will lead to disqualification. What is referred to as watered down karate is often the result of insufficient study of the katas and instructors passing off sporting methods as self-defence techniques to their students. The katas were devised long before the evolution of competition and it is within them we should look if effective fighting skills are our aim.

Geoff Thompson. From my own experience of kata/bunkai practice, classes learn a given applications, do it a couple of times, and then move on to something else. Do you think that there is room in the contemporary dojo to incorporate grappling - as taught in kata - into the curriculum proper?

IA. There simply has to be. Without the inclusion of the close range aspects, on a consistent basis, the art is essentially incomplete. Grappling is part of karate and it is my view that it must be included in regular practice. The striking should always be the priority however. It has been said that the essence of karate is found in ending the fight with a single blow. Close range fighting includes both striking and grappling and it is important to use the right method at the right time. When an opponent makes their initial grip, it is not our aim to become involved in a long drawn out wrestling match. The more time we spend entangled with an opponent, the more time their unentangled colleagues will have to repeatedly strike us. Grappling an opponent into submission can take time, whereas a well placed strike can end a fight in a split second. A great many of the kata's grappling techniques free limbs and position opponents so decisive strikes can take place. The danger is that we place so much emphasis on the striking that we totally omit the grappling. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and hence grappling should be a part of regular practice.



Geoff Thompson. How is it Ian that all of this amazing bunkai has escaped the knowledge of the regular dan grade?

IA. As I mentioned earlier, there are many historical reasons relating to the ways in which the katas were taught. As an example, when Master Itsou introduced karate onto the physical education program of the Shuri Jinjo elementary school in Okinawa, he believed Karate to be too dangerous to be taught to children and set about disguising the more dangerous techniques. As a result of this change in approach, the children were taught the katas as mostly blocking & punching. This enabled the children to gain such benefits as improved health and discipline from their karate practice without giving them knowledge of the highly effective & dangerous fighting techniques that the katas contain. The terminology used by Itsou when teaching children is the one most prevalent today and hence the labels attached to techniques often have no bearing upon their intended use. So a modern karate student may simply accept that a certain movement is a "block" and never look for the movement's true purpose. There are numerous other historical reasons in addition; things like the original secrecy surrounding the art, the katas and their applications etc. I feel, however, that the main reason is that many people practice the katas but few study them. No matter how nice a kata looks, it is of little use if the techniques and concepts it contains cannot be utilised. All the information is there, you just have to study it. The regular dan grade tends to view kata as a pointless activity that is begrudgingly learnt and practised simply to satisfy grading requirements. I think it was Einstein who said that you could look at the surface of an orange in an infinite number of ways but it would not be until you split it open that you would learn what an orange was all about. The word, "bunkai" means, "to dissect." Study the katas in-depth and all the knowledge is there for the taking. If you wish to acquire anything of value you have to be prepared to pay the cost. Many don't spend enough time on the katas and hence fail to extract the profound knowledge they contain.




'' Geoff Thompson. I studied boxing for many years and I couldn't believe how similar many of the hand movements and footwork were to karate - especially in the bunkai. Should we also have a look at boxing, perhaps even Thai, indeed should we look at lots of different arts to better understand our own?

IA. It is a bit like music. All the music in the world, from Mozart to Motorhead, is based upon the same principles. Different musical styles emphasise the various principles to differing levels, in a similar way to differing martial arts styles, but they are essentially based upon the same concepts. There are only so many ways to punch, throw, strangle etc. I am constantly looking at how other arts apply the principles contained within the karate katas and adapting those aspects into my training if appropriate. I think everyone else should as well. Another important thing is that if you do not know what a throw, or a choke, or a lock looks like you will never see it in the kata. Looking at other arts will definitely help you to understand, and refine, the principles and techniques already contained within your own art.

theres many more articles about karate and many other arts on this site,
well worth a look!

:)

[twayman]

Great Post Jock!

:beer:

Cheers Mate!

Mike Mitchell
I Second that!

[hectokan]

Organized Despair from the Tao of Jeet Kune-Do,

In the long history of martial arts,the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists,instructors and students alike.This is partly due to human tendency and partly because of the steep traditions behind multiple patterns of styles.Consequnetly,to find a refreshing original,master teacher is a rarity.The need for a "pointer of the way"echoes.

Each man belongs to a style which claims to posses truth to the exclusion of all other styles.These styles become institutes with their explanations of the "way"dissecting and isolating the harmony of firmness and gentlleness,establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques.

Instead of facing combat in its suchness,then,most systems of martial arts accumulate a "fancy mess" that distorts and cramps their practicioners and distracts them from the actual reality of combat,which is simple and direct.Instead of going imediately to the heart of things,flowery forms(organized despair)and artificial techniques are ritualistically practiced to simiulate actual combat.Thus,instead of being in combat these practicioners are"doing" something "about" combat.

Worse still super mental power and spiritual this and spiritual that are desperately incorporated unitl these practicioners drift further and further into mystery and abstraction.All such things are futile attempts to arrest and fix the ever-changing movements in combat and to dissect and analyze them like a corpse.

When you get down to it,real combat is not fixed and is very much "alive."the fancy mess (a form of parylisis) soldifies and conditions what was once fluid,and when you look at it realistically,it is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.

[jailess]

But surely in JKD you must learn some techniques: if not, then what do your classes entail? Do you just all fight each other until you learn by trial-and-error what works?

What guard(s) do you use? how do you punch? how do you kick? etc. I know that at the start MA practice can look artificial, but if shu, ha, ri is anything like true after a few years you begin to practice the MA in a different way, adapting it to your own body shape and mental makeup. Hopefully, with a bit of luck you'll reach the Ri stage, and whilst still practicing your MA will no longer be limited by it.

[Bustillo, A.]

1.) But surely in JKD you must learn some techniques: if not, then what do your classes entail? Do you just all fight each other until you learn by trial-and-error what works?

2.) ...after a few years you begin to practice the MA in a different way, adapting it to your own body shape and mental makeup. .


1.) You can learn technique and how to defend yourself without learning a set of patterns, forms, kata.

2.) In part , that is what they mean about going at it in a roundabout way. Certain fundamentals are important to learn, however, you shouldn't have to wait a few years to adapt to your body type.

[The Kai]

1.) Everything is a form, shadowboxing to full kata

2.) The body take years to make adaptions to stress, weightlifters, natural body builders are'nt born in a week. Neither should a martial artist

[Bustillo, A.]

1.) Everything is a form, shadowboxing to full kata

2.) The body take years to make adaptions to stress, weightlifters, natural body builders are'nt born in a week. Neither should a martial artist


1.) You misunderstood how we are using the term 'form." In this case, form=kata.

2.) Here again you are not following the concept we are discussing. You're correct that it takes time to develop skills. However, what the Tao of JKD refers to, and what we're addressing, is completely different.

[The Kai]

So a form has to have so many moves (lets say 12 before a JKD"r will dicard it? How about juru's

2.) If you are not talking about devolping skills, you are talking about what??

[hectokan]

Quoted bt the kai,
So a form has to have so many moves (lets say 12 before a JKD"r will dicard it?



A "form" as it pertains to in the Tao of jeet kune-do has always meant to describe a classical kata as Mr.Bustillo stated.A classical kata in Bruce lees view has been codified,numbered,and developed under a specific structure which must and can never be broken or as bruce likes to call it "organized despair".In other words it is nothing like shadowboxing which can be changed,adapted or modfied daily if needed.

On a side note it is important to mention that even thou a classical kata can be broken down into a single technical sequence,so that drills can be practcied with a partner,(a dose of reality practice for some traditionalist)the codified structure must usually be followed.If they claim not to have to follow it exactly the way they do in their kata,then what's the point in the first place "walla" welcome to the Jeet kune-do kingdom you have reached nirvana.

These training methods do not apply to the striking arts only,as most of the dominant grappling arts seem to thrive on this concept.It's Probably one of the reasons why Dan inosanto(bruce JKD student) has been training in BJJ for many years now.

[GTO]

A "form" as it pertains to in the Tao of jeet kune-do has always meant to describe a classical kata as Mr.Bustillo stated.A classical kata in Bruce lees view has been codified,numbered,and developed under a specific structure which must and can never be broken or as bruce likes to call it "organized despair".In other words it is nothing like shadowboxing which can be changed,adapted or modfied daily if needed.

I feel this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of kata, at least as practiced within my ryu. Kata are intended to develop the neuromuscular structures in certain ways, inculcate certain mentalities, build perception of distance and timing, etc. They are not always intended to be simulations of combat, but rather representative of the movements and attitude necessary for combat.

As far as adaptation goes, it's done on a daily basis, for the rather obvious reason that each person and each situation is a bit different. The distance, timing, rhythm, and even gross movements will vary on each run-through of a given kata. Just because a given set of movements is numbered and codified doesn't make it inflexible or unadaptable.

To clarify, I don't believe that repetitive practice of one-person forms can by itself build combat prowess. There are simply too many elements lost when a second person is omitted. However, combat effectiveness can and is built with forms incorporating regular interaction with the quirks and idiosyncracies of living, breathing opponents.

[hectokan]

Kata are intended to develop the neuromuscular structures in certain ways, inculcate certain mentalities, build perception of distance and timing, etc.

Inhindsight isn't that what any and all fighting drills are suppose to be trying to acomplish?What makes the older specific kata(drill) so special that it even has special anthropology teams set up specifically for the task of trying to unravel the hidden mysteries contained in their movements?do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?

[The Kai]

So boxers don't repeat routines? There are no patterns to your weapons defense, or any self defense?

[Ron Tisdale]

do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?

I wouldn't say that, neccesarily. But I would say in the case of classical ryu, they had experience actually fighting with weapons no longer fought with today. So it is not likely that improvement is going to come from people who have no way of really testing out their 'improvements'.

I also think that classical ryu have a very complex and different mindset from the majority of arts (at least) practiced today.

Best,
Ron

[hectokan]

So boxers don't repeat routines? There are no patterns to your weapons defense, or any self defense?

Kai,

The big difference is the freedom to express your own self intuition at any moment during your shadowbox training.In other words in shadow boxing when a straight lead punch is thrown,(as in a jab for example)a practicioner is not forced at anyone point to follow up with a mandatory right hand because James Figg did so back in the day.


The practicioner has the options both offensivley and defensivley to develop his very own personal cadence and intuition as to when to do anything.Can some of it become stagnated and repetitous?SURE but that is what a good trainer is for or a second eye that is able to evaluate it correctly from the outside inorder to avoid the mishaps of becomming predictable.This is also were your own rythmitic expression(sort of like your own personal DNA) needs to be honed & developed and not hampered into a set pattern.

Yes I do agree by in large boxers do repeat the some of same punches and you must do so inorder to acquire anytype of high level skills but room for change and adaptation along with self interpretation is always allowed and encouraged as long as success is acquired with "proven" results.

The actual punch of a boxer might follow a set pattern of delivery but nobody can tell you when to punch,when to duck,when to slide,or when to follow up,this freedom of self expression should be developed freely.

[hectokan]

I wouldn't say that, neccesarily. But I would say in the case of classical ryu, they had experience actually fighting with weapons no longer fought with today. So it is not likely that improvement is going to come from people who have no way of really testing out their 'improvements'.

I also think that classical ryu have a very complex and different mindset from the majority of arts (at least) practiced today.

Best,
Ron

Ron,

I happen to agree with you here.It was developed in a different time and place under different circumstances.I am not saying that it is all neccesarily obsolete but one must come to a practical evaluation when those techniques are considered for todays world of self defense and even less so for any type of fight sport activity

[jailess]

I think of Kata as GTO does: It's a way of developing muscle memory and kinaesthetic learning of the form of the punches/kicks/throwing techniques.

Learning how to do the things Hector is talking about we do in Randori/kumite.

[GTO]

The actual punch of a boxer might follow a set pattern of delivery but nobody can tell you when to punch,when to duck,when to slide,or when to follow up,this freedom of self expression should be developed freely.

Not so different from a classical ryu's kenshi in battle...


Inhindsight isn't that what any and all fighting drills are suppose to be trying to acomplish?

Yup, which is why I don't understand your animosity toward kata.


What makes the older specific kata(drill) so special that it even has special anthropology teams set up specifically for the task of trying to unravel the hidden mysteries contained in their movements?do you think our anscestors really had some sort of magical powers in developing fighting drills that could never be improved upon?

Not magical powers, just a long, long time and a much different philosophical outlook from that which we have today.

As far as time, take Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami for an example. The man basically breathed, ate, and slept combat. This gave him a lot of time and a lot of experience with which to refine his martial technique, not to mention the fact that he was building and synthesizing from some already-refined combat systems (Shinto-ryu, Kage-ryu, etc.). We students of his system are inheriting approaches and methods that have been passed down and refined for centuries. That collective experience and thoughtfulness far outweighs what one man can accomplish in his life.

As far as philosophical outlook, take a gander at, say, hsing-i chuan. The point of it is not being able to deck the average thug in two weeks. From the outset, it takes a long-term, measured approach, teaching the students perfect bodily coordination in a martial context. This makes hsing-i players able to generate tremendous explosive power, absorb strong blows to vital areas, move with seemingly impossible speed, etc. In this case, it is indeed the forms that must remain the same, or otherwise you lose the lesson of bodily harmony. Once that harmony is developed at a basic level, however, one can move into fluid and unpredictable applications.

[Ron Tisdale]

one must come to a practical evaluation when those techniques are considered for todays world of self defense and even less so for any type of fight sport activity

And, uh, just who is doing that?

For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment. So I do know that it can be done.

Best,
Ron

[powerof0ne]

And, uh, just who is doing that?

For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment. So I do know that it can be done.

Best,
Ron

I agree it can be done but in my experience it's not done by many.

[hectokan]

For what it's worth, I know someone trained in aikido and a classical ryu who has competed in kali contests and cleaned house. Some how, he was able to use the totality of his training (including a whole lot of kata) and translate it to a different, competitive environment.


Ron,

For what it's worth,it just so happens that some of the best competitive full contact kali stick fighters are known as the dog brothers,which a lot of them come from JKD Backgrounds.Most of the top fighters in those competitive full contact kali tournaments use alot of the same principles disscussed here from the Tao of Jeet kune -do.


Now,I don't know what tournament your friend participated in and I for one am not trying to deny any of his acomplishements but inorder to compete succesfully at any type of"high level" in any type of combative sporting event.I can guarantee you that classical kata training of any kind is not really the reason for anybodys success.

[Ron Tisdale]

Well, I don't know you, and you don't know me, and you also don't know him...so your guarantee isn't really worth that much. No offense. This is one of the tournaments in question.

http://www.bakbakan.com/kf2klist.htm

Best,
Ron

[hectokan]

Well, I don't know you, and you don't know me, and you also don't know him...so your guarantee isn't really worth that much. No offense.

Best,
Ron


well forget about you,him or me for a second and just look at the statistics and training routines of any combative elite athletes and their competitions,then comeback and answer the question.

[Bustillo, A.]

As far as time, take Kamiizumi Ise-no-Kami for an example. The man basically breathed, ate, and slept combat. (Shinto-ryu, Kage-ryu, etc.). We students of his system are inheriting approaches and methods that have been passed down and refined for centuries. That collective experience and thoughtfulness far outweighs what one man can accomplish in his life.

As far as philosophical outlook, take hsing-i chuan. The point of it is not being able to deck the average thug in two weeks. From the outset, it takes a long-term, measured approach, teaching the students perfect bodily coordination in a martial context. This makes hsing-i players able to generate tremendous explosive power, absorb strong blows to vital areas, move with seemingly impossible speed, etc. In this case, it is indeed the forms that must remain the same, or otherwise you lose the lesson of bodily harmony. Once that harmony is developed at a basic level, however, one can move into fluid and unpredictable applications.

Kamiizumi Nobutsuna from the 1500s...correct?
No doubt some it was passed down, however, many of the styles changed emphasis over the centuries. Therefore, in some cases you are not necessarily inheriting the "it's all practical" format.



Re: What you listed about Hsing -si. Parlor tricks pulled off in a controlled environment.

[GTO]

Kamiizumi Nobutsuna from the 1500s...correct?
No doubt some it was passed down, however, many of the styles changed emphasis over the centuries. Therefore, in some cases you are not necessarily inheriting the "it's all practical" format.

Which is why one must be discerning in what one learns. The spirit of the ryu, however, tends to be rather well-preserved, and hence the principles of what one must learn to fight are still there.


Re: What you listed about Hsing -si. Parlor tricks pulled off in a controlled environment.

How controlled are we talking about here? My old sifu basically asked me to come at him any way I chose. Sometimes he'd just sit there and let me pound him in the body a couple of times while smirking at me, and other times he'd step a hair out of the way and whomp me, sending me literally ten to twenty feet back. I'd put money on someone who's gone beyond the forms of hsing-i anyday.

I'm a cynic at heart. My faith in the classical forms stems from direct experience. You may or may not believe me; all I can say is get thee to a school where the old techniques are living and breathing, and see for yourself.

[Bustillo, A.]

...other times he'd step a hair out of the way and whomp me, sending me literally ten to twenty feet back

I'm a cynic at heart. My faith in the classical forms stems from direct experience. You may or may not believe me; all I can say is get thee to a school where the old techniques are living and breathing, and see for yourself.

You're assuming I haven't. For the most part, they are technically good at what they are doing and no doubt they have a good serious mindest about what they're doing. Even so....wasn't convinced and "they couldn't" convince me.

Re your hsing si teacher and the 20 feet back...sounds excatly like what I previously described. Parlor tricks.

[GTO]

You're assuming I haven't.

Actually not. I simply assume that you had a different experience then I, whether due to the quality of the classicists you've met or the nuances of your own preconceptions.


For the most part, they are technically good at what they are doing and no doubt they have a good serious mindest about what they're doing. Even so....wasn't convinced and "they couldn't" convince me.

Was this before or after you adopted the JKD mindset?

One of the great flaws of JKD, I feel, is an inborn bias against the classical systems as being in and of themselves incomplete approaches to combat. This would seem to poison JKD's otherwise open-minded and practical outlook.


Re your hsing si teacher and the 20 feet back...sounds excatly like what I previously described. Parlor tricks.

Well, heck... if I can have an opponent come at me any way he chooses and use a "parlor trick" to send him into the wall across the street, then sign me up, trickery or not. ;)

[Bustillo, A.]

1.)Actually not. I simply assume that you had a different experience then I, whether due to the quality of the classicists you've met or the nuances of your own preconceptions.

2.) Was this before or after you adopted the JKD mindset?

3.)One of the great flaws of JKD, I feel, is an inborn bias against the classical systems as being in and of themselves incomplete approaches to combat. This would seem to poison JKD's otherwise open-minded and practical outlook.

4.)Well, heck... if I can have an opponent come at me any way he chooses and use a "parlor trick" to send him into the wall across the street, then sign me up, trickery or not. ;)

1.) In my case, definitely not based on preconceptions.

2.) I'm not JKD man yet I understand where they are coming from and happen to agree with their approach to training.

3.) A good part it has to do with they see today's classical methods as, overall, not practical and rarely open-minded at all.

4.) Jackie chan sign me up....:)

[Rob Alvelais]

Then again, it seems that Man Jack Wong may have been trained in bagua. Does anyone know?

If that were the case, he would not have studied it so that he could avoid saying Wong had something Bruce didn't have.

Yes, Wong Sifu is trained in Ba Gwa as well as Hsing-I Chuan, Tai Chi Chuan and I'm not sure what "external Chinese" systems. Wong is my Hsing-I instr. (well, he was until my twins were born - the parents out there understand.)


The Lee camp's description of Wong is absolutely despicable. Wong is a kind, shy gentleman who was teaching round-eyes even before Bruce. That whole nonesense about the fight being about Bruce teaching caucasians is crap. Many of my seniors in my class were training with Wong since the 60's and they were of all races.

Rob

[KenKenobi]

Its the individual who wins or loses, not the style.

Brilliantly put. And very true.

[mohamed jirad]

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