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luar
26th October 2005, 20:48
Ki No Sen is a very diffcult thing to describe. Prior to my discussuion with Sensei, I thought that having a good solid Gamae was Ki No Sen but I was told it was far more deeper than this. I believe in the Randori DVD, Aosaka refers to this but I do not understand Japanese.

Thoughts?

dax
26th October 2005, 20:59
Intuition?

luar
26th October 2005, 21:02
Intuition?

But is there not also a physical element to this?

dax
26th October 2005, 21:06
The way I understand it is that ki no sen goes beyond the physical and is a mental understanding of an action before it happens - maybe sensing danger and taking action to difuse the situation before anything bad happens would fall into the ki no sen level.

Sen no sen seems to be the highest form of physical initiative (where you are able to read an opponent and respond to visual clues before an attack).

David Dunn
27th October 2005, 00:16
In the Tokuhon, it talks of 'unactualised sen' - taking initiative in situations before they develop. Mizuno Sensei has some concrete examples - reflections in windows, or reactions of people that can see things that you can't (e.g. what's behind you).

jailess
27th October 2005, 11:57
David,

Could you expand on these examples/give some of your own?

Richard Codling
27th October 2005, 12:06
... reflections in windows, or reactions of people that can see things that you can't (e.g. what's behind you).

Does that basically mean that you should keep your wits about you at all times and observe what's going on around you, while still remaing calm?

David Dunn
27th October 2005, 12:52
It means to take the initiative before events physically occur. It's not intuition (kan) and it's not keeping calm (heijo shin), although of course it must require intuition and calm to do it.

Jame, I'll try to think of some examples. In a bit of a rush now.

Gary Dolce
27th October 2005, 13:24
I think of ki no sen as recognizing the potential for agression before it becomes obvious physically, and defusing it with non-physical means. I don't have a good example of the recognition part other than to say I think it would be a combination of very subtle physical cues ("body language"), and the ability to put yourself in the other person's shoes for the moment. One example might be this thought process: "He is approaching me very deliberately in a parking lot in broad daylight with lots of people around. Did I inadvertantly park in a space he was waiting for?"

My teacher gave the example once in a demo of diverting the potential aggressor with a compliment ("What a nice belt! Where did you get it?") and then following up with an offer of friendship ("Can I buy you a beer?"). The example was meant to be humorous, and these are not the kind of examples that easily apply to aggressors that approach with criminal intent, but I have found that the general approach works pretty well when dealing with someone who thinks they have a reason to be annoyed with me.

Mike_Smith
27th October 2005, 13:34
Gassho

I was reading a website the other day and found this, it's no explaination but It may help:


Try role playing in your own head when you are amongst a group of people. Pretend you are a criminal looking for a victim in the crowd. Who do you pick, and why? Who would you avoid, and why? You may find aspects of these 'vibes' labelled 'Ki no Sen' in the Fukudokuhon, the Pink Book.

kesshu

Mike

dax
27th October 2005, 17:25
It is in discussions like this where I would love a translation from the kyohan. It would be interesting to read what Kaiso wrote on ki no sen. Any translations of this point out there? The fukudokuhon reads "...ki no sen which is based on reading one's opponent on a psychological level, before any physical signs of attack." This makes me think ki no sen is based on intuition rather than reading visual clues in a reflection of a window or judging a situation by the reactions of others.

luar
27th October 2005, 18:52
It is in discussions like this where I would love a translation from the kyohan. It would be interesting to read what Kaiso wrote on ki no sen. Any translations of this point out there? The fukudokuhon reads "...ki no sen which is based on reading one's opponent on a psychological level, before any physical signs of attack." This makes me think ki no sen is based on intuition rather than reading visual clues in a reflection of a window or judging a situation by the reactions of others.

But in the context of self-defense, an apporpriate action must be taken when one has an intuition otherwise what is the point? In the example that Dolce Sensei gave he an action that technicaly defended himself without resulting in any confrontation.

dax
27th October 2005, 19:20
But in the context of self-defense, an apporpriate action must be taken when one has an intuition otherwise what is the point? In the example that Dolce Sensei gave he an action that technicaly defended himself without resulting in any confrontation.

I agree completely and Gary's example is what I understand as ki no sen.

David Dunn
27th October 2005, 22:39
In the Tokuhon it says:

"The above three kinds of sen all manifest themselves physically in the shape of techniques, and are thus classified as manifest sen (kihatsu no sen, or sen at the level of physical events). Aside from these, there is another kind of sen (ki no sen) that does not manifest in physical form, but which can forestall opponents actions at the level of ki. With this you sense opponents' mental activity and forestall their actions before they try anything. This is therefore classified as unactualised sen (mihatsu no sen or sen based on real things, but not physical events)

Without this ki no sen, actually taking the initiative would be a difficult thing to accomplish..."