Sword stuck in body? [Archive]

JAnstey

1st November 2005, 02:25

Hi there,

A recent dojo discussion revolved around the theory that when the blade is in the opponents' body (say from a tsuke)the blade will become stuck due to muscles, sinues etc contracting and clamping on the blade. Thus making the pulling out more difficult.

Personally I find this a little hard to imagine but I would be interested in some opinions.

I apologise if this has been discussed before.

Cheers

Jason

Maro

1st November 2005, 03:00

I would say that the sinews would "spring" apart rather than close around the Blade.

I guess it's one of those questions we'll never know.

Budoka 34

1st November 2005, 03:22

paradoxbox

1st November 2005, 03:35

I wonder, has anyone actually tried stabbing a piece of dead meat with a sword? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I am genuinely interested in this kind of thing.

I have found that doing a tsuki on a piece of lubricated styrofoam caused the blade to stick very strongly in the styrofoam and required great effort to remove. Probably not a very good substitute for human flesh, but if anyone has experience injecting people with vaccination shots you will know what tensed muscles can do to a needle.

I would imagine that some times, tensed muscles could probably pose a problem for removing the blade, in certain cases.

fifthchamber

1st November 2005, 03:46

Hi Cory,
The problem wouldn't be answered by stabbing already dead meat..The idea was that the muscles would contract around the blade to a degree and make it harder to slide back out..Dead tissue won't react to that.
I would guess that it would depend on where you were stabbed..If it was into a largely muscled are such as the legs or chest perhaps it would be harder to remove the blade as cleanly as it went in.
I have seen several Ryuha here perform some form of movement where the sword is assumed to have become stuck but I can't say what this means in each Ryuha..It may well have been because they found the muscles clamped down but equally it could be that they are exigencies for catching the blade in bone or something else.
Only way to tell is to kill something..And I haven't done that with a sword.
Regards.

JAnstey

1st November 2005, 03:52

Normally a blade will enter and exit easily depending of course on sharpness and blade type.

But if a blade penetrates bone or intercostal muscles it can be a very different story. It can become lodged in or between bone.

... this is what I would think as well, and it is probably why the tsuki targets are generally the soft areas, ie 3cm below sternum (sp?) Kesa cuts normally exit in the soft area between the last rib and obi.

Thanx for the replies, any further comments will be much appreciated.

Cheers

Jason

A. Bakken

1st November 2005, 04:36

I've been taught to turn the blade prior to pulling it out from a tsuki. The edge and mune is vertically aligned when doing the thrust, but tilted to an angle before it's pulled out. This, theoretically, should facilitate removal of the blade as you open up the stab wound.

My sensei likes to remark that iai has one of the lowest injury rates in martial arts, but nevertheless some of the goriest details! :D

phobbs

1st November 2005, 07:29

On a thrust, 30% of the total effort is pushing the blade in. 70% of the effort is pulling the blade out. That's what my Sensei said, although I never asked how those numbers were derived. That would imply the muscles contract around the blade.

ulvulv

1st November 2005, 12:56

When I read the title "sword stuck in body", my wicked imagination pictured a bleeding keyboard warrior, with a practical plus katana stuck in his body, frantically typing for help. Sorry :)

Jean Binck

1st November 2005, 16:06

Budoka 34

1st November 2005, 16:30

Sorry, when I first answered I was very tired and didn't realize that we were talking swords. Most of my experience and training has been with knives(tanto length or less).

Due to the depth a sword can penetrate you may run into a "sticking" phenomenon due to the varying layers of muscle and sinew and the pressure differential between these layers. However this is easily released by a simple turn of the blade.

For a weapon to be truly stuck would require something more substantial than muscle, i.e. bone.

I have a lovely scar on my left inner thigh were a 4" pen knife went in and out like, well, like a hot knife through butter. :rolleyes:

chrismoses

1st November 2005, 20:23

When I read the title "sword stuck in body", my wicked imagination pictured a bleeding keyboard warrior, with a practical plus katana stuck in his body, frantically typing for help. Sorry :)

Same here, I was rushing to type, "As usual, ask your Sensei..." Bwa ha ha ha...

But seriously, living muscle tissue will grab foreign objects for lack of a better term. It can be very hard to pull them out. Some people who have had acupuncture may have experienced the needles being pulled into the muscle and being very difficult to extract. Haven't tried this sort of thing myself, but it is also a part of SR and the phenomenon was confirmed by my Anatomy/Physiology classes that I've taken.

Aden

1st November 2005, 22:02

Indeed - thats why Australian army bayonet drill (reaching back 20+ years her...) was in / twist (to break the suction) / up / out - of course the SLR bayonet was a bit less smooth sided than a katana and leverage was a bit different....

Aden

sunny

1st November 2005, 23:24

Same here, I was rushing to type, "As usual, ask your Sensei..."
hilarious.
Thanks for that Chris, I really needed a good laugh today. :)
(But should I really be laughing about such a thing?...oh well....)
best regards,

JLD_Jin

2nd November 2005, 00:19

When a foreign object enters the body the muscles do contract around the object to prevent it from coming out. This is the body's way of preventing you from bleeding out if ever there's a large enough object stuck in you. That would depend entirely on the size and shape of the object. A small pen knife is made to come out of the wound, because it's effectiveness stems from the deep holes it leaves in the body and the massive blood loss that ensues.

Another thing that could happen is that when the blade goes in it gets caught because of the suction generated by the entry of the blade. This becomes evident when thrusting into a large chunk of meat.

So to answer you quesiton yes blades do get stuck in flesh, but the blade has to be large enough and you have to be thrusting into a meaty part. So getting a toothpick in the finger wont make these phenomenon apparent.

Joel Leduc

Budoka 34

2nd November 2005, 04:11

Joel,

That's about what I was trying to say, but you stated it much more clearly.

That would depend entirely on the size and shape of the object.

when the blade goes in it gets caught because of the suction generated by the entry of the blade.
and

yes blades do get stuck in flesh, but the blade has to be large enough and you have to be thrusting into a meaty part.

JAnstey

3rd November 2005, 01:34

... thanks very much for the responses to this thread, some great thoughts and comments which have certainly altered my initial ideas.

Cheers

Jason

Evan London

3rd November 2005, 11:58

One issue I'm not hearing is interference of clothing and accessories like belts, jewelry, zippers, etc. In addition to various biological aspects acting on the blade, what your opponent is wearing also has a huge effect on your ability to withdraw your blade. This is especially true when training in older sword arts that focus on sword use against opponents in yoroi such as Kukishin Ryu. Also, this is a big aspect of training in sojutsu and older forms of naginatajutsu.

When we train we emphasize "nuki", or pulling out the blade with strength, as well as the use of techniques where you use a foot to kick your opponent off your blade.

Ev

Budoka 34

3rd November 2005, 14:04

Good point!

One issue I'm not hearing is interference of clothing and accessories like belts, jewelry, zippers, etc. In addition to various biological aspects acting on the blade, what your opponent is wearing also has a huge effect on your ability to withdraw your blade. This is especially true when training in older sword arts that focus on sword use against opponents in yoroi such as Kukishin Ryu. Also, this is a big aspect of training in sojutsu and older forms of naginatajutsu.

When we train we emphasize "nuki", or pulling out the blade with strength, as well as the use of techniques where you use a foot to kick your opponent off your blade.

Thanks goodness I've never had to deal with anyone wearing that style of body armor. ;)

wmuromoto

3rd November 2005, 18:49

Apparently, forensics experts and old Japanese martial arts stylists aren't the only ones who found it could be problematic to extricate long pointy things from living bodies. I remember reading (or watching the movie?) "All Quiet on the Western Front," about German soldiers in WW I. The grizzled veteran told the young hero of the novel that in close combat trench fighting, it was better to use the edge of a shovel to whack the enemy than to use a bayonet, since the latter would often get stuck if plunged too deeply into flesh, bone, gristle and trench coats, thereby leaving you vulnerable to attacks from the pokee or his buddies coming over the top. Years later, I was told the same thing by my iai teachers about why it was important to not do the thrust too deeply.

Bloody work, and gruesome too, if you think about it.

Wayne Muromoto

gmanry

3rd November 2005, 19:55

Things I have been told about tsuki:

1. Take two panes of glass and put oil between them, try to pry them apart. You won't be able to. Twist one, and it will come apart as the total area of fluidic contact is reduced. This is partially what happens when you thrust a flat plane of highly polished metal into wet tissue. This is why some people think bohi are "blood grooves." Couple that with bone density, sinews, etc. and you can get a blade stuck. Twisting or swiveling the blade will allow you to more easily withdraw the blade, but you may have to put a foot on the opponent and heave it out.

2. If you thrust too deeply into an opponent, you now have a 100+ pound object on the long end of a lever. The tsuka may be wrenched from your hand as the opponent collapses. Be ready to transition to a secondary weapon such as kodachi or tanto.

3. If you make a more shallow thrust into teki, you can swivel the blade upwards to lock an opponent. This works very well if they are wearing yoroi. You then transition to the secondary weapon to pierce an exposed weak point. This is a form of yoroi kumiuchi. You can turn them and use them as a shield while you are killing them.

CEB

3rd November 2005, 20:55

When a foreign object enters the body the muscles do contract around the object to prevent it from coming out. This is the body's way of preventing you from bleeding out if ever there's a large enough object stuck in you. ....
Joel Leduc

This is true My Dad confirms this he has been stabbed in the thigh while working in a meat packing plant. The muscles contract immediately. Kind of painful.

This was a serious consideration in old school army bayonet training....What to do when the bayonet gets stuck in the enemy's body.

Step 1 ) put your foot on their body and try to pull your bayonet free.
Step 2 ) If step one doesn't work you try to shoot him off while repeating Step 1.

Now they use little 5.56mm ammo I don't how much difference that would make.

ulvulv

3rd November 2005, 21:24

zippers? shotguns? budo-forum?
Gruesome indeed. ;)

twayman

3rd November 2005, 22:02

This is why some people think bohi are "blood grooves."

Are you saying that the grooves are to relieve the suction? I have heard that the grooves are to lighten the blade while maintaining strength. Either or both?

gmanry

3rd November 2005, 23:09

No, bohi are, from what I understand, are a way to lighten the blade, possibly increase structural integrity (depending on who you talk to), and they are useful for the detection of problems with hasuji.

Some people believe that they can reduce this phenomenon, and that may be the reason for their inclusion in the Kabaar knife or other Western blades. However, it is my understanding that this is not the reason for their inclusion on nihonto.

What I was saying is that some people claim their inclusion helps mitigate the sticking factor. I don't think that this is correct, it would take more surface displacement of fluid than can be provided by such a typically thin groove.

However, I am by no means an expert on such matters, I merely stated things that have been told to me in my studies, sorry for the confusion.

twayman

3rd November 2005, 23:21

However, I am by no means an expert on such matters, I merely stated things that have been told to me in my studies, sorry for the confusion.
Glenn, No confusion. I have heard a few things on the bohi and most sound like theories more than fact. The lightening of the blade is the one I have always sided on and when you made your post it made me think... hey a new theory. :)

Ken-Hawaii

4th November 2005, 20:43

Sounds like there are few engineers or hunters in our illustrious group. :p

The bohi definitely has a structural function, as well as lightening the blade's weight. Think about how an i-beam is formed; they're built that way for a reason. Maximizes strength, minimizes weight. A thin, long, smooth blade could be easily torqued to where it twists, but a bohi prevents that (in most cases). Any swordsmiths out there who would like to measure this strengthening effect?

Todd, on your original question about having the sword stuck in a body, I can provide perhaps a bit more info, based on my own somewhat painful experience. While living in Wyoming many moons ago, my wife & I were out hunting for antelope in the mountains above Laramie. Close to sunset, Linda made an incredible 325-yard shot with her .30-30 & knocked down a big buck.

We ran over to it, & I lifted its head only to find that it wasn't "quite" deceased. I got gored in the upper thigh by its short, stubby horn, & had no way to unsling my own rifle. Linda wasn't about to try & shoot the antelope again while we were so closely "engaged," so it was up to me to put it down. I was carrying my razor-sharp Bowie knife, but was at the wrong angle to slit its throat (sorry for the gore), so I ended up stabbing it in the heart for an instant kill.

The knife blade went in very easily & smoothly (adrenaline notwithstanding), but after I managed to remove my leg from the horn, it took both of us to pull the Bowie out. I didn't hit any bone, so it was muscle tissue that was holding the blade so firmly. No bohi on a Bowie knife (although that sounds like an interesting design), but I can vouch that a smooth 12-inch blade takes a heap of pulling, twisting, & turning to extract from a body.

pgsmith

4th November 2005, 20:58

Maximizes strength, minimizes weight. A thin, long, smooth blade could be easily torqued to where it twists, but a bohi prevents that (in most cases). Any swordsmiths out there who would like to measure this strengthening effect?
Hi Ken,
You're actually incorrect. The I-beam structure maximizes the strength to weight ratio. A steel beam of the same dimensions would be much stronger than an I-beam. It would also be a whole lot heavier. The same principal applies on a sword. If you carve bo hi into a sword blade, you remove material from the blade. This makes it lighter and moves the balance toward the tsuka. It also weakens the blade. A sword of the same size without bo hi would be both heavier and stronger. However, a sword with bo hi is stronger than a sword of the same length and weight without bo hi.

Chad Ritenour

5th November 2005, 15:51

Paul,

I was with ya there until that last sentence. Now I am confused. In fact, an I beam does maximize strength-to-weight ratio along with other physical properties such as sheer strength etc... (TMI). Don't even want to get into the math there...lol. However, by removing material from a beam you also lighten the beams weight upon itself thereby actually it is possible to increase a beams strength due to the removal of material.

I took your comment to mean that bo hi weakens a blade due to the removal material...is that correct? I ask this just out of lack of knowledge in regard to sword engineering. I would think that bo hi would weaken a blade both from ha to mune as well as when twisted. With my limited knowledge I understand that bo hi were used strictly to, as you said, maximize strngth-to-weight ratio. Sorry for getting a bit off topic here.

Chad W. Ritenour

Leo Chang

6th November 2005, 15:52

As far as the engineering aspect of "bohi" is concerned...I'll take other poster's word for it :)

As for the swordsmanship aspect of it... my Iaido sensei in MJER said that the "bohi" is intended for instructional purposes only. ie... for that swoosh sound it makes when you do a correct kirioroshi. And has nothing to do with being a "blood groove".

I think this way of looking at it is reasonable.... since most antiques that I have seen (on the web, unfortunately not in person) from ancient periods do not have bohi.

Jock Armstrong

7th November 2005, 05:45

Leo Chang

7th November 2005, 06:04

The whoosh- i've forgotten the Japanese name for it- is the reason why iaito are constructed that way [apart from just looking nice]. Your iaido instructor is quite right I think. However, I doubt that koto period blades were made with bohi with that in mind. It was cut into the blade to lighten it without substantially weakening the weapon. European blades have "fullers" [bohi in English , for the same reason.

Yes, I have overlooked that, thanks for bringing that up. So maybe to re-formulate what I said previously: they originally made the bohi to lighten the katana... then after hearing the cool sound it makes when a correct cut is made, someone sometime later (could be much much later) decided to make the bohi a standard feature on iaitos for instructional purposes.

By the way... for MJER, the bohi really is not intended to lighten the blade, because my MJER dojo (again, I don't know how true this is of MJER in general) definitely favours heavy iaitos. The closest to a shinken, the better. So for us, the bohi really is just for its instructional value, and not to lighten the blade.

Just curious, anyone know the percentage of katanas in periods of unrest with bohi on them?

another question: I talked to the Japanese owner of a local MA supply store, and he said that shinkens as a rule do not have bohi.... and that iaitos as a rule are not forged and folded... though there are exceptions. And that Japanese craftsmen adhere to this shinken/iaito distinction quite strictly. How true is this? Or perhaps he was just referring to the craftsmen that supply his store....?

This is related to this thread because if what he told me were true, (that shinkens generally do not have bohi), then that would seem to support the position bohi is more of a instructional feature than a lighten-the-sword-to be-easier-to-handle feature ('cause otherwise why wouldn't a lot of shinkens have it?)

Lots of conjecture and speculation in my post, I know... so I am looking forward to be corrected and educated by the senpais on this forum :p

A. Bakken

7th November 2005, 06:39

Lots of conjecture and speculation in my post, I know...

Indeed. You might want to do a search here on eBudo and also over at Sword Forum International, where the topic of bo-hi has been discussed countless times. The short answer is that there are many reasons for a sword having, or not having, bo-hi. Sometimes it's to reduce weight or improve balance. Sometimes it's to "mask" forging flaws. Sometimes they're chosen because they're decorative or traditional. Sometimes they're there because the customer asked for it (maybe because he thought it facilitated removal after having stuck someone, or maybe he was the superstitious kind who thought it could prevent hair loss and make his wife less frigid, who knows?).

JAnstey

7th November 2005, 07:29

Indeed. You might want to do a search here on eBudo and also over at Sword Forum International, where the topic of bo-hi has been discussed countless times. The short answer is that there are many reasons for a sword having, or not having, bo-hi. Sometimes it's to reduce weight or improve balance. Sometimes it's to "mask" forging flaws. Sometimes they're chosen because they're decorative or traditional. Sometimes they're there because the customer asked for it (maybe because he thought it facilitated removal after having stuck someone, or maybe he was the superstitious kind who thought it could prevent hair loss and make his wife less frigid, who knows?).

Beautifully put Aage.

I must be a knuckle-head but I have only just put the face to the name behind the ebudo forum. It was good to meet you at the Brighton Iai Seminar in August.

Hope your training is going well, and hope we can avoid turning this discussion into a bo-hi debate.
Cheers mate

Jason

Brian Owens

7th November 2005, 10:53

...another question: I talked to the Japanese owner of a local MA supply store, and he said that shinkens as a rule do not have bohi.... and that iaitos as a rule are not forged and folded... though there are exceptions. And that Japanese craftsmen adhere to this shinken/iaito distinction quite strictly. How true is this? Or perhaps he was just referring to the craftsmen that supply his store....?
Any sword used for Iai could be called an iaito, but in common use it refers to the aluminum alloy swords specifically made for Iaido practice, both to save money and to avoid Japan's strict laws on manufacture and possession of live blades.

It is true that iaito are not made with forged and folded steel blades; that would make it a shinken by definition, even if it weren't sharpened. Full registration would be required if it was made and owned in Japan.

SwordStore.com has swords they call "Steel Iaito That Cut," but that is a marketing name and not a common usage of the term "iaito."

As for shinken not having bohi "as a rule" -- that's not true. It depends on the sword's period, the region where it was made, the "school" of smithing that the maker adheres to, the individual smith's preference, etc.

One can find examples of Koto, Shinto, Shin Shinto, and Shinsakuto blades that have bohi, as well as example of the same that do not.

Charlie Kondek

7th November 2005, 14:46

Good thread!

EDIT: Question. So on kesa giri the blade bites into the superscapularis and slides OVER the ribs and then into the softer area below the ribs and between the obi? Is this a definite kill, because it seems to me the opponent could live through that.

pgsmith

7th November 2005, 15:04

I took your comment to mean that bo hi weakens a blade due to the removal material...is that correct?
Hi Chad,
Yes, that is correct. However, if you took the same amount of material from the blade by simply making the blade thinner instead of cutting in bo hi, it would be much weaker than the thicker blade with bo hi cut into it. Any steel taken off of a blade will weaken it. Bo hi help to minimize it.

So on kesa giri the blade bites into the superscapularis and slides OVER the ribs and then into the softer area below the ribs and between the obi?
That's not what I've been taught. I was taught to see kesa giri as entering at the shoulder/neck juncture, cutting through the carotid and the spine to exit at the bottom of the ribs. Big strong cut!

A. Bakken

7th November 2005, 18:15

Well, Jason, glad to see the jet lag has finally subsided! ;)

Beautifully put Aage.

I must be a knuckle-head but I have only just put the face to the name behind the ebudo forum. It was good to meet you at the Brighton Iai Seminar in August.

Hope your training is going well, and hope we can avoid turning this discussion into a bo-hi debate.
Cheers mate

Jason

Leo Chang

7th November 2005, 18:21

Thanks to all that answered my questions... I'll remember to do searches before posting other questions :p

Charlie Kondek

7th November 2005, 18:30

Hi Chad,
Yes, that is correct. However, if you took the same amount of material from the blade by simply making the blade thinner instead of cutting in bo hi, it would be much weaker than the thicker blade with bo hi cut into it. Any steel taken off of a blade will weaken it. Bo hi help to minimize it.

That's not what I've been taught. I was taught to see kesa giri as entering at the shoulder/neck juncture, cutting through the carotid and the spine to exit at the bottom of the ribs. Big strong cut!

Really? Wow. Couple of times I've started this kind of thread but it never got much traction. So this is a cut between HOW many bones?

twayman

7th November 2005, 18:47

Crap, I need to get DSL or something better than dial-up at home... I miss to much on the weekends!

Sounds like there are few engineers or hunters in our illustrious group. :p

Engineer. Can’t quite stomach hunting… I know I’m a wussy. :rolleyes:

I can vouch for the strength to weight ratio but, on an Iaito it’s kind of moot due to the aluminum alloy (light anyway)… I guess unless you need it lighter. Now on the woosh sound… yeah that is cool when it does that. :p

pgsmith

7th November 2005, 19:58

So this is a cut between HOW many bones?
Through Charlie, not between. Living bone is actually not all that hard. Bone does not harden until after death. Anyone that has hunted and field dressed animals can tell you that an ordinary skinning knife will easily cut into bone. (Engineer and former hunter! :)) The hardest part of a cut like that would not be going through the bone, it would be in maintaining hasuji so you can continue all the way through.

chrismoses

7th November 2005, 20:04

Through Charlie, not between. Living bone is actually not all that hard. Bone does not harden until after death. Anyone that has hunted and field dressed animals can tell you that an ordinary skinning knife will easily cut into bone. (Engineer and former hunter! :)) The hardest part of a cut like that would not be going through the bone, it would be in maintaining hasuji so you can continue all the way through.

Eeew...

and

Cool...

All at the same time.

twayman

7th November 2005, 20:27

Eeew...

and

Cool...

All at the same time.
We need to start a new thread entilted... Why sword folk are so twisted. :p

Maro

7th November 2005, 20:56

Iaitos can be varied in their weight.

My Iaito is only 250g lighter than my Chen Wind and Thunder which is known as a particularly heavy shinken. It's not just Aluminium but Beryllium and Zinc as well.

It's relative.

Charlie Kondek

8th November 2005, 12:54

Right, Paul, sorry, I meant through. So you actually cut the person in HALF? (Unless you get stuck part way down...)

I would love to see more on this topic. I think about this all the time with no real definite answers. Should I start a new thread?

Charlie Kondek

8th November 2005, 13:02

For example, what is anatomically happening during a:

men cut

a kiri oroshi

a cut to the kote

tsuki to stomach or throat or eyes (stomach = the purpose of this thread)

doh cut

Brian Owens

8th November 2005, 13:13

Right, Paul, sorry, I meant through. So you actually cut the person in HALF? (Unless you get stuck part way down...)
Yes. Against an unarmored opponent, at least. Kesagiri (Priest's Robe Cut) gets it's name from the fact that it follows the line of a priest's surplace from the shoulder down across the body to the hip on the other side. (Picture the lapel line of your keikogi.)

During WWII American troops going to serve in SE Asia and China were given a pamplet called "The Jap Soldier" or something like that. One section contained an admonition that if one were confronted by a group of Japanese and one was wielding a sword, to "shoot him first, because he can cleave a man in two from collar bone to hip bone in one stroke." (Not an exact quote, but close. I'm working from memory here.)

I would love to see more on this topic. I think about this all the time with no real definite answers. Should I start a new thread?
It seems a natural progression of this thread, but starting a new one would be fine, too.

I have some photos of old scrolls and texts showing how to do test cutting on cadavers, and the various standard cuts. I'll try to get to Kinko's and scan them in the next few days, and I'll post them here.

kenkyusha

8th November 2005, 15:46

I'll try to get to Kinko's and scan them in the next few days, and I'll post them here.
I don't remember where I found this, but there similar illustrations floating around.

Be well,
Jigme

Charlie Kondek

8th November 2005, 20:58

Kenkyusha, can you provide a link? It's pretty small on my browser.

twayman

8th November 2005, 21:11

Kenkyusha, can you provide a link? It's pretty small on my browser.
Check out Darrel Craig's "IAI the art of drawing the sword". There is a chaper towards the end on test cutting.

kenkyusha

8th November 2005, 22:20

Kenkyusha, can you provide a link? It's pretty small on my browser.
The resize was rather more drastic than intended. That image is on my box at the office, so I'll put it up on the dojo site and provide a link tomorrow.

Be well,
Jigme

JAnstey

9th November 2005, 00:22

... This might be a generalisation, but...

In the arts that I study the tsuki is aimed at the sugetsu (sp?) which is approx 3 fingers with below the pointey bone (sternum ?). I am making an assumption here but believe that this is a very soft target and will stick between the abdominal muscles. The tsuki generally only goes in around 2 - 3 inches, this would facilitate the easy withdraw of the blade?

Ahhh the such are ponderings of the insane? ;-)

Cheers

Jason

Brian Owens

9th November 2005, 03:44

...the pointey bone (sternum ?).
Zyphoid process, below the sternum proper.

...I am making an assumption here but believe that this is a very soft target and will stick between the abdominal muscles. The tsuki generally only goes in around 2 - 3 inches, this would facilitate the easy withdraw of the blade?
One tsuki to the throat that I learned was usually 2 - 3 inches deep (there was another that was a rising thrust under the chin that went deeper), while the thrusts to the solar plexus went a little deeper -- closer to 6 - 8 inches. The latter's target was the decending aorta and diaphram. A rather forceful withdrawl was used for body thrusts, usually involving stepping well back with arms straight to use body weight for the pull-out, or turning and stepping sideways with the arms locked against the body for the same reason.

This suggests to me that experience taught the old masters that blades thrust into the body could, indeed, be hard to remove.