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View Full Version : Book: "Discovering Aiki: My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa", by Kimura Tatsuo



Nathan Scott
8th November 2005, 06:17
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Cady Goldfield
8th November 2005, 17:31
Looks like an interesting book. However, it also looks like the usual account of aiki, in which the writer talks about "surges" and "power," goes into detail about philosophical issues, and says nothing about mechanics. Of course. ;)

Mark Jakabcsin
9th November 2005, 22:30
Looks like an interesting book. However, it also looks like the usual account of aiki, in which the writer talks about "surges" and "power," goes into detail about philosophical issues, and says nothing about mechanics. Of course. ;)

Cady,
Would you be happy if the book published the precious secrets of DR Aiki? Somehow I think not. :)

Mark J.

Dan Harden
10th November 2005, 13:41
Well we all know it doesn't matter anyway Mark. A detailed description of draining the grabbing energy and capturing the grip, or a drilling aiki punch, Aiki age, or maybe how to root and redirect force-on-force will result in what; 10 years and 10,000 failures later only a small percentage of people will get it anyway, as no one will put in the time and/or have insight to "see."
As you know and many of us here know ...it is a humbling experience.
Talking about Aiki-jutsu is just like here.
Aiki-jujutsu- the forum that isn't

In reality though it is the same in most every other art. Most people are at various stages of smelling up the place with their own brand of martial art shtick. How many times have you seen those who do their "art" well..... who can't seem to step out of the box and fight worth a damn? Fighting is fighting and to be good at it- you have to fight. Martial arts are...well...arts.
Not fighting.

I am going to pay to have both books translated. I am more interested in the history and stories.


See ya
Dan

dbotari
10th November 2005, 15:03
Hi Dan,

Can you tell me where I might be able to obtain a copy of Transparent Power in North America? I have tried looking at various Japanese book sites but unfortunately i can't read the kanji/hiragana well enough to find the book and order it. If you have a source can you please let me know?

Thanks, :)

Dan Botari

Cady Goldfield
10th November 2005, 22:04
Mark, I was being facetious. Talk is talk is talk. Words are words are words. Only doing means anything here.

In pretty much all disciplines, martial art or other, descriptive books are useful only after you have actually experienced and gained some skill at the discipline. Otherwise, it's like the blind men and the elephant. :rolleyes:

I do like nice stories, though. Nice stories are fun to read.

Walker
11th November 2005, 19:01
Can you tell me where I might be able to obtain a copy of Transparent Power in North America?
Dan BotariYou might send a note to Russ at Futago Trader info@futagotrader.com
He can get generally available stuff and also searches for out of print things.

Nathan Scott
12th November 2005, 03:47
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Dan Harden
12th November 2005, 13:42
Hi Bud

I'm confused. You used me as a quote. You do realize you just recited my point don't cha?
To expand on my point- I was stating that you essentially -cannot- give the goods away anyway. You know what I'm talking about. We have both experienced the "Here do it this way. No No, not that! THIS way." 1,000, 2,000 or more hours later on our own somewhere we said..."Oh, that's what he was talking about." The internal work in the Chinese systems seems to be the same.
Once past the jujutsu the internal stuff simply cannot be "had" verbally. It has to be earned through sweat. I also think that those who are still in- don't share and talk about the details, those who have left don't seem to either. So the students of two schools who really have the goods are not parting with them anytime soon. And no I don't care if it starts any war about the "schools." The proof is in pudding.

The example about the densho-I am not clear on your point.
As we both know the secrets aren't in there anyway. You either get it by working it or you don't. DR is different then the various Koryu that are more technical based. The gokui of various koryu are actual techniques in and of themselves, and then on another level there are ways to do the omote that are not seen as well. The real juice behind DR is the internal stuff that makes connection or power generation. Where it is the same as Koryu is that the student really won't arrive on a day where he was handed a scroll with any "goods" in it that he didn't already know.
As for learning internal work. There just isn't allot out there, is there? At the end of the day this stuff will always remain small. The rote technical work is far easier to transmit. We all know it, it just isn't P.C. to say it.

Cheers
Dan

Lorel
13th November 2005, 08:04
Hi Bud

I'm confused. You used me as a quote. You do realize you just recited my point don't cha?
To expand on my point- I was stating that you essentially -cannot- give the goods away anyway. You know what I'm talking about. We have both experienced the "Here do it this way. No No, not that! THIS way." 1,000, 2,000 or more hours later on our own somewhere we said..."Oh, that's what he was talking about." The internal work in the Chinese systems seems to be the same.
Once past the jujutsu the internal stuff simply cannot be "had" verbally. It has to be earned through sweat. I also think that those who are still in- don't share and talk about the details, those who have left don't seem to either. So the students of two schools who really have the goods are not parting with them anytime soon. And no I don't care if it starts any war about the "schools." The proof is in pudding.

The example about the densho-I am not clear on your point.
As we both know the secrets aren't in there anyway. You either get it by working it or you don't. DR is different then the various Koryu that are more technical based. The gokui of various koryu are actual techniques in and of themselves, and then on another level there are ways to do the omote that are not seen as well. The real juice behind DR is the internal stuff that makes connection or power generation. Where it is the same as Koryu is that the student really won't arrive on a day where he was handed a scroll with any "goods" in it that he didn't already know.
As for learning internal work. There just isn't allot out there, is there? At the end of the day this stuff will always remain small. The rote technical work is far easier to transmit. We all know it, it just isn't P.C. to say it.

Cheers
Dan


I know DR is your prized jewel but there are other koryu arts that have 'internal' stuff. However, I express a similar opinion to yours in that I believe that a small minority of people will really grasp these 'hidden' principles.

Dan Harden
13th November 2005, 16:22
I know DR is your prized jewel but there are other koryu arts that have 'internal' stuff. However, I express a similar opinion to yours in that I believe that a small minority of people will really grasp these 'hidden' principles.

Lorel

Actually if you knew me you would know that DR is NOT my prized jewel. As in most other things on the net discussion boards we only read and hear a very, very small portion of our views on certain specific topics. My views and observations are much broader and more encompassing than to embrace a single art and hold that up as the be all and end all.

It is fair to say that I hold the internal work above all else; the Chinese work, DR, and of late I think we should all consider adding Systema to that list. However, a review of how the internal work is expressed and who it draws would not draw favorable views from me either. Not that anyone cares. It is choosing to use aiki and internal power generation to "actually" fight that draws me. Systema is attempting to do that, perhaps quite well. It is no surprise that we see so many similarities in the three.
Push hands is a test and training, wrist and gi grabbing is as well.
The best internal work is aggressive internal work.

Cheers
Dan

Lorel
14th November 2005, 06:36
I know DR is your prized jewel but there are other koryu arts that have 'internal' stuff. However, I express a similar opinion to yours in that I believe that a small minority of people will really grasp these 'hidden' principles.

Lorel

Actually if you knew me you would know that DR is NOT my prized jewel. As in most other things on the net discussion boards we only read and hear a very, very small portion of our views on certain specific topics. My views and observations are much broader and more encompassing than to embrace a single art and hold that up as the be all and end all.

It is fair to say that I hold the internal work above all else; the Chinese work, DR, and of late I think we should all consider adding Systema to that list. However, a review of how the internal work is expressed and who it draws would not draw favorable views from me either. Not that anyone cares. It is choosing to use aiki and internal power generation to "actually" fight that draws me. Systema is attempting to do that, perhaps quite well. It is no surprise that we see so many similarities in the three.
Push hands is a test and training, wrist and gi grabbing is as well.
The best internal work is aggressive internal work.

Cheers
Dan


Cool. I too yearn for summadat internal stuff. Just saying DR is not alone in Japan for this sort of body knowledge.

Ron Tisdale
17th November 2005, 15:30
My copy just came in. Let you know what I think in a couple of days.

Best,
Ron

Arman
18th November 2005, 17:29
I have to admit some of Dan's point. You can tell someone all the secrets you want until you're blue in the face and most won't ever really get it. (Not that I really get it, either, but I know what Dan is talking about)

Nathan also makes some good points from a strictly koryu perspective.

In the end, DR is hard enough to grasp that IMO it really doesn't matter how open someone might try to make it; it will remain in the domain of the committed few. Sure, there will be frauds and charlatans, but in today's McDojo world, it is kind of hard to prevent their existence, whether you are an open or closed tradition. After all, someone could watch some old BBC footage of Nen ryu and KSR and add it to his BS and claim a lineage with these arts. Best just to train and ignore the distractions.

Best,
Arman Partamian

morpheus
18th November 2005, 19:27
I put in an order for my copy earlier this week. I also picked up a copy of "Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters" and have been enjoying that since it arrived yesterday. I will pass on my opinions on "Discovering Aiki" when it makes it to my mailbox. My proximity does not allow me to study Daito-ryu, but hopefully one day in the future.
Jeff

Mark Jakabcsin
18th November 2005, 21:08
I have to admit some of Dan's point. You can tell someone all the secrets you want until you're blue in the face and most won't ever really get it.

In the end, DR is hard enough to grasp that IMO it really doesn't matter how open someone might try to make it; it will remain in the domain of the committed few.

Then why all of the secrecy? Through the years Okamoto Sensei has received a good deal of critism for teaching openly and sharing the aiki no jitsu portion of the art. I have heard him state that he can demonstrate it over and over, but it can't be stolen, it can only be earned (learned) with dedication to training. Hence he doesn't even try to hide, and yet he has been knocked many times for being open.

I'm not really asking for an answer here as this question has been discussed in the past and each of us has our own opinion. Although I note that some of those opinions might be changing slightly. Take care.

Mark J.

kokumo
18th November 2005, 22:35
Then why all of the secrecy?
Mark J.

1. General tradition dating back to earlier times in which it was a bad idea to let potential enemies see your stuff.

2. More particularly, because Takeda Sokaku was a man who was suspicious to a point that would be called paranoia in contemporary society, although there are a fair number of indications in what we know of his life that there may well have been people out to get him for quite understandable reasons of which he was well aware.

3. Even people for whom 1 & 2 are not issues, there are otherwise reasonably well-adjusted folks who want to learn the stuff badly enough that they are willing to accept the condition of secrecy, whether it's a personal issue for them or not.

4. Secrecy can make very ordinary things seem special. Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included.

Best,

Richard Elias
21st November 2005, 22:54
"... Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included."

Or is it that most special and secret things are really quite ordinary?
I think it just depends on the circles you walk in, and the company you keep.

Walker
22nd November 2005, 03:13
... and whether or not you are "special" yourself...


What does kind of bug me about secrecy is when it becomes fetishistic. Yeah, there are secret things and there are secret things. More often than not secret things just make communication harder. After going round and round about some secret thing someone finally throws up a video or talks in plain English and suddenly it is "Oh, just that?"

On the other hand when beset by swine, keep walking with pearls safely in hand.

kokumo
22nd November 2005, 15:57
"... Of course, the fact that most ordinary things really are quite special seems to be a secret that most people keep from themselves all their lives, myself included."

Or is it that most special and secret things are really quite ordinary?
I think it just depends on the circles you walk in, and the company you keep.

Why decide? Once that boundary ceases to look so firm, so many more things are possible than before.....

Richard Elias
22nd November 2005, 21:28
Decide what?

???

Cady Goldfield
22nd November 2005, 21:52
This is starting to sound like a "Calvin and Hobbes" comic strip ("Seeeecret secrets!"). :p

I subscribe to Doug's pearls vs. swine concept, in general. But as Dan will tell you (with little prompting or encouragement... :D ), only the really dedicated will work it and work it until they can do it and understand it. So, it doesn't really matter in the long run who hears what.

Nathan Scott
22nd November 2005, 23:17
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Walker
23rd November 2005, 01:14
I hear you Nathan, but you can go mad reading two people arguing "my wife is great because I get blow jobs" vs. "well I'd agree except fellatio is what is really the best!"

Makes you want to kill them with a knife!

Nathan Scott
23rd November 2005, 01:26
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Mark Jakabcsin
28th November 2005, 22:57
I finished reading the English portion today. Interesting read, if not overly helpful, although that was expected. The book has many great pictures, which to me was worth the price of the book. The 48 page article is simply a bonus.

Any way, I found the following 3 paragraphs most interesting and they left me smiling for obvious reasons. This can be found on page 40 of the English portion:

"Until I began to grasp Aiki I used to practice thinking that I understood what it was. Sensei just watched me for about three months without saying anything.Then, one day he suddenly said, "What you are doing is not Aiki. Aiki is like this." Sensei showed me my way of doing the technique and then using Aiki. I could clearly see the difference and was convinced by what Sensei said. Again, I started to think about what I could do. Then surprisingly, some new idea would come and I would think again that this was Aiki. Moreover, the people around me would say that what I was doing was wonderful and I was easily misled. THis process went on and on.

"Even though I studied under Sagawa Sensei for such a long time, I misunderstood many times what Aiki is. I felt that many people with some ability misunderstand that what they are doing is Aiki. Sagawa Sensei told me that he thought what he was doing was the same Aiki that Takeda Sensei did, but that he wasn't sure. He said that's just the way things are.

"Sagawa Sensei did everything to me in a manner similar to what he himself had experienced. One time in the kitchen, Sensei said, "This is what Takeda Sensei told me about Aiki. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of his words." He also said, "That is all that I heard from Takeda Sensei about Aiki. I taught you this, okay?" Sensei also said, "One must grasp Aiki directly. This is how I did it, but it might not be possible for you to learn it if I don't teach you how I came to understand it.

"Thus, even though I gained a glimpse of Aiki, it is not true that Sagawa Sensei cnofirmed the fact that what I was doing was Aiki. ......."


Several good stories and small insights.
Mark J.

Nathan Scott
26th July 2006, 08:07
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Jitsumania
26th July 2006, 15:58
Nathan, I would like to thank you for posting the translation on the forum. It makes for thought provoking introspection in ones search for their own Aiki. A few years ago I found the book "The Hidden Roots of Aikido" and became absolutly fascinated with the Daito-Ryu System. My curiosity was especially sparked in the area of the Aiki no Jutsu. The techniques were astounding to me. Mind you, I had trained in the arts approx 37 (Karate, Judo, Jujitsu and recently Aikido) years before I saw some of the intricacies of DR. Had heard of the art but few people could give me much of any info on the particulars of the art. The secrecy (which has been adressed in this thread) prevails until you learn to navigate the waters of investigation. I am glad I did. I was accepted into a group lead by DR Roppokai Sensei Jose Lopez (one of Okamoto Senseis senior students) and started my training 2 weeks ago. Wearing a white belt (which I had not done for quite a while, unless visiting a Dojo) I was manipulated in ways I had not even phathomed. The ease with which Lopez Sensei manipulated my body (and others in the group) with such minute movement and relaxation was astounding. There may be much discussion or picking apart of the DR system but nothing make you more of a believer than being on the RECIEVING END of these techniques. I was then allowed to give the technique to others. I believe that this is where the connection to finding true Aiki begins, in the doing, not really in the talking.

Kendoguy9
27th July 2006, 20:59
Hey Nathan,

Thanks for sharing that with us. It is remarkable to read Sagawa and Ueshiba, and how much alike they were in their writing. If you'd like to show off more of your translating skills with more stuff like this, I think everyone here would enjoy it **nudge, nudge** :)

Thanks again,

Nathan Scott
31st July 2006, 04:38
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