What to look for at a Daito Ryu dojo

[bwhite33]

>also posted on aikido journal forum, not sure of the overlap in readership<

If we can keep the different groups from attacking each other, I'd like to know what should I look for in a class?

I wouldn't know an ikkajo technique from a Big Mac, so does it matter it ends in a throw, or a drop or whatever?

Of course I will look at things like: would I want to associate with these people, is there sincere training etc, but ...

Does it matter for training an art if someone is from the mainline or if someone is from the Kodokai or Takumakai?

Thanks

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Bryan,
If you don't mind me asking, where do you live that you have so many Daito ryu options? Frequently the decision is made by what's available if anything. There just aren't that many legit DR training locations in the US and many of them you have to really hunt for to find.

Best of luck.

Mark J.

[Finny]

First thing I'd be checking is whether the group was affiliated with one of the major lines of Daito Ryu:

Takumakai
Kodokai
Roppokai
Mainline
Hakuhokai

Then I'd check that this affiliation is current.

And of course be sure to look for the ability to seriously take me apart (ie. Skill), as well as whether the people there are friendly, and the sort of people you'd want to train with...

[bwhite33]

Finney: Thanks. I forgot the "take me apart" part. :-)
Mark: Ann Arbor Michigan, there appears at least a couple within an hour drive (Milan and Clio) and another one or two around two hours away.


Because of the occasional group bashing I didn't want to start a war. I maybe should of asked for the legit schools, but I opted for gentle caution..

thanks,

[jonesm20]

I would be more concerned about the quality of instruction, whether it be in daito ryu, jujutsu or ballet dancing.

Quality over style any day. If I moved into an area with a highly skilled teacher, even if I had never studied that art before I would train in that. There are certain things that transcend style and are usually only learned from the best teachers.

My advice is to find the best teacher that is available to you.

[chrismoses]

Well, it looks like the one in Clio is part of the Bokuhokan, and offshoot of the Kodokai, and the dojo is part of the Hakuhokai. Unfortunately I'm not terribly familiar with either of those, so I'd say check them out and see which one feels right.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Mark Jakabcsin]

The various branches of Daito-ryu are all very different. Many of them contain legitimate teachings, but you basically have to research each group a bit to find out what they are like and compare that to what you are looking for. As you say, it is hard to place value on the different branches without starting a war here, ......
Good luck,

Nathan,

Interesting comment above. When you say 'Many of them contain legitimate teachings...' you are implying that some branches teach illigitimate teachings. Please elaborate if you can. I'm not looking for a flame war, especially since I no longer actively train in the art. I have no allegiance to any branch but am interested in each one to some degree. Unfortunately I have had the opportunity to experience only two of them to date. Knowing that you have more experience in the different branches than I, I am interested in your view. Thanks.

Mark J.

[bwhite33]

The hard part is most/every group has had some disparaging remarks said about them, to which their advocates refute ... and add something back.

Seminars:

In the US/Canada it looks like there's seminars given each year by Kondo Sensei's group and Okabayashi Sensei's group (maybe others).
Do members of one group attend the others seminars or is it considered bad form?
Any AJJ groups not welcome at others AJJ seminars?

Sorry for so many questions, but this helps when deciding things like this.

[jasoncarrier]

It all depends on what is avalible and what you want out of it. People get to wrao up in my style is the greatest thing since christ walk on water. You should know soon enough if the guy is the real deal. Don't buy into the hype, make sure he performs his tech, on you. If your head almost pops off from a crapping tech. or he drops you with out effort and it hurts like hell or does not hurt until you hit the mat, you are most are in a good place.

Jason

Again what do I know. So much to learn and only one life time.

[bwhite33]

Thanks all .... I'm giving the Hakuho Kai a go. I watched a class, talked to the people, and I think I would enjoy training with this group.

And it also happens to be the closest. :-)

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[jasoncarrier]

"I no spell so good" I meant cramping.

Funny reply though

J

[judasith]

There are many Daito-ryu associations, even in Japan. Abroad there are also many complete frauds who use the name Daito-ryu. In my Daito-ryu experience I find these are the main ones:

1) First group is Hakuho-kai (Okabayashi), Shimbukan (Kondo), Seishinkai/Daitokai (Kato)

These share almost the same program (but Ono-ha itto-ryu is only taught by Okabayashi and Kato). The techniques are the same, because these three groups come from Takeda Tokimune "mainline" (Okabayashi studied also Takumakai but he has mostly studied with the mainline).
Mainline Daito-ryu stresses jujutsu and is very much like a classical koryu.

2) Second group is Kodokai (Nishikido), Roppokai (Okamoto).

These two schools come from Kodo Horikawa line of Daito-ryu, they have in common an extreme stress on aiki and nage, much more than in Aikido.
There is one other branch called Bokuyokan, but I've never found any sufficient evidence it's genuine, supposedly an offshoot from Kodokai.

3) Third group is Takumakai (Mori), Takumakai (Amatsu), Daibukan (Ohgami)

These schools all derive from Takuma Hisa line of Daito-ryu, they are also mainly jujutsu, but many techniques are different or studied in a different order than the mainline. The first two schools adopted the mainline hiden mokuroku program of 118 techniques, in addition of the Soden, which is a series of photos of techniques shown by Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba Morihei, while the Daibukan only uses the Soden.

4) Last group is Sagawa dojo.

We know very little about Sagawa dojo, since it doesn't usually accept foreigners. Yukiyoshi Sagawa died some 5 years ago and was a direct student of Takeda Sokaku.

If the school/dojo you contact has direct lines to one of these groups, then it is genuine Daito-ryu, but what to look for in a class depends on the peculiarities of each of these main groups.

Regards

[Mateo]

1) First group is Hakuho-kai (Okabayashi), Shimbukan (Kondo), Seishinkai/Daitokai (Kato)

These share almost the same program (but Ono-ha itto-ryu is only taught by Okabayashi and Kato). The techniques are the same, because these three groups come from Takeda Tokimune "mainline" (Okabayashi studied also Takumakai but he has mostly studied with the mainline).
Mainline Daito-ryu stresses jujutsu and is very much like a classical koryu.

4) Last group is Sagawa dojo.

We know very little about Sagawa dojo, since it doesn't usually accept foreigners. Yukiyoshi Sagawa died some 5 years ago and was a direct student of Takeda Sokaku.


I'm not sure it would not be accurate to say that Okabayashi did 'most' of his training in Hokkaido under Tokimune. It was my understanding that he was already quite advanced in the Takumakai system when Hisa sent him as a representative to the Headmaster. When he completed his training there he brought the Headmaster's approach back to the Takumakai as one of the senior teachers there along with Mori and Kawabe senseis.

But I think you are perfectly right in the fact that Tokimune's tutelage was of critical importance to his later approach to waza. It is probably more accurate to say that he spent significant amounts of time with both the Takumakai and the Headmaster and therefore can represent both traditions.

Tokimune's interpretation of the Ona Ha Itto ryu is also of critical importance to the Hakuho-ryu's ( They changed their name from the Hakuhokai branch of the Takumakai a couple of years ago.) approach.

In regard to the Sagawa dojo there is a satellite University dojo which runs in Tokyo which is sometimes used to introduce people to the main dojo. There has been a 'gaijin' posting recently that is presently training there. I think very few people have been allowed to train in the tradition regardless of race.The main dojo was reputedly always quite small and Sagawa was not interested in spreading the art on a large scale. The lucky few from what I've heard.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[judasith]

Yeah, you're right. I should have written Kodokai (main branch - this once was led by Inoue Sensei, but I don't know at the moment since the main Kodokai is very close and quiet), Kodokai (Nishikido - he CLAIMS to be a direct student of Horikawa Kodo, but I don't know when he left the main line and what is the exact name of the association.), Roppokai (Okamoto).

I never saw any demonstration from the mainline Kodokai, except once a small one by Inoue, but from what I've seen of Nishikido and Okamoto, they have many similarities. Since I have been studying in the mainline Daito-ryu from Takeda Tokimune, I cannot really like this kind of Daito-ryu, which is VERY different from what I've always practiced and seen, but in my opinion, Nishikido is way too much show, putting people to sleep and waking them with aiki or paralyzing them like electric current is flowing through them... just my opinion, though, I hope no one gets offended by it.