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Matthew Banks
29th November 2000, 11:45
Hi I train in Yoshinkan Aikido. To cut a long story short, for higher grades we do some training of the mat and on the hard floor so lower grades can use the soft space. We do most things of the mat e.g. rensoku dosa, applied tecniques and sometimes giuwaza's. Yet when I went to a seminar in Birmingham a guy came up to me and said that what we practiced was pure ego attempting to be macho. I was insulted by his remark. No one at the dojo has to train off the mat yet they do as it means breakfalls etc have to be perfect. It is a transition stage for uke to really be at one with tory and not get injured. And to date no one has got injured of the mat, yet they all say they are far more exilerated than usual training on the mat. I must stress it isnt a regular thing as after a while it could injure someone. Yet we do it for higher grades for realism. Im sure I have seen O'sensei doing the same in books etc. So how dare that person be so rude. I feel sometimes certain dojo's forget Aikido is a martial art and that o'sensei always said we should train as hard as we can to prepare ourselves for the challenges of life.That doesnt mean kill each other for ego's sake, but always push yourself, and place yourself outside your comfort zone otherwise you wont improve in the many realms of aikido. People will always do what is comfortable for them, its human instict, so in Aikido we do things which will build them as a person. Thats why we have a posture, so we are in an acceptable position to flow etc etc etc... we could just stand upright and try and learn that way, but in the long run it would restrict you.

In other words I feel personally many styles due to the sensei etc do whatever is comfortable for them and thus never really improve. And thus their Aikido becomes diluted.


Any views?????? I bet you've got loads


Matt Banks

p.s. just my personal views

Arashi
29th November 2000, 13:06
Hi Matthew.

I don't see any problem in training without mats every now and then. In fact i believe students can benefit of it in lerning to perfect breakfalls, as you pointed. Of course this should not be practiced by "rookies". I only see a problem with swari waza, doing it on a hard floor would unecessarilly hurt the knees so i don't advise anyone doing it. Ganbatte.

Toni Rodrigues

Daniel Pokorny
29th November 2000, 13:36
I have to agree with Arashi here as long as you have no physical problems that would leave you worse off for the experience. This type of hard floor practice will really help you locate any "corners" in your ukemi.

Also one must consider the fact that it's called practice. That usually entails making mistakes, correcting them and trying again. This process is obviously much easier on the body if mats are used. Mats are much more forgiving than the floor is when you do land wrong and I don't know about anyone else, but I want to continue practice as long as I'm physically able.

Train hard, Play hard, Live easy,

Dan P. - Mongo

szczepan
29th November 2000, 13:50
Hi Matthew

He said you guys are macho??Don't pay attention at him at all.He is aikifruity...
We train daily with no mats, in fact we practice outside on the big parking place on the concret.Summer (+40 C), wintertime(-30 C),rain, icestorm,doesn't matter for us, particularly winter we like to do 16 hours meditation outside.Practice in the snow is really fun, but sensei every morning ask us to clean parking up,to be sure our breakfalls are still on concret.
There is alse night practice with real sharp swords or knives for more advanced students.First we do kumitachi and then free sparring.
Every evening after last class everybody goes in the street, to the pubs, to test fresh learned techniques.Every advanced student has a group of 10-15 beginers to show them actual applications.Then beginers can apply techniques themselves.Next morning sensei collect rapports who won and who's technique wasn't perfect - you woudn't like to be this one......;-D he doesnt allow us to kill after all....

Our town is criminals-free.

That's how we apply O'sensei philosophie of hard training and peace and love in daily life.

regardz

Ron Tisdale
29th November 2000, 15:42
Good one S. :)

Hi Matt,

In a branch dojo where I train we also run out of mat space. So the seniors move off to work on a thin rubber matting that covers the concrete. I like it when my body feels good, not so much when I'm already sore and a little tired. Nothing macho about it. It is good practise, and if you don't have the luxury of matts, you still need to practise. I wouldn't let someone who makes a big deal about it get to you: you can see where they are, and where you are. Let that be enough.

Ron (also yoshinkan, glad to have you here) Tisdale

Rolling Elbow
29th November 2000, 16:21
First of all, why does your nick have to be soo damn hard to spell?

Secondly, are you saying that your instructor teaches techniques and encourages his students to then go out and test their skills?:

"Every evening after last class everybody goes in the street, to the pubs, to test fresh learned techniques.Every advanced student has a group of 10-15 beginers to show them actual applications.."

Man, is that a sure way to get destroyed or what? You don't "try" out techniques on people in bars because it may very well be that the techniques don't work on a resisting partner and he ends up kicking your a**..well if it is all for the sake of learning i guess.?????? I would say that until you are extremely good, who would even consider starting trouble on purpose..furthermore, when you ARE that good, you shouldn't feel the need to test your skills in order to boost your self confidence should you? Man, If an instructor told me to go test my skills in the street to practice, I'd sneak out the door and change my address.

As for the training outside in 30 below weather, are you sure this statement is accurate? Do you wear long johns and a body suit under your gi? a face mask? shovel the parking lot? No security or surveillance cameras wondering why a bunch of crazy guys are running around with weapons in hand, sparring, or throwing wach other on the concrete?! Can anyone say cult or have i misinterpreted this post?

I'd be grateful if you could clear this up for me.

Matthew Banks
29th November 2000, 17:52
Rolling elbow Im pretty sure that gut was just joking or making fun of me. It was funny

Rolling Elbow
29th November 2000, 19:12
I think i ust woke up and saw that and wrote my post half a sleep.

I withdraw my post but will leave it up there so everyone can see how much of a moron I am.

szczepan
29th November 2000, 19:47
Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
First of all, why does your nick have to be soo damn hard to spell?

Hi Rolling Head....egzzz...I mean Shoulder,

This is my first name, ask my parents, it's their fault!



Secondly, are you saying that your instructor teaches techniques and encourages his students to then go out and test their skills?:

"Every evening after last class everybody goes in the street, to the pubs, to test fresh learned techniques.Every advanced student has a group of 10-15 beginers to show them actual applications.."

Man, is that a sure way to get destroyed or what? You don't "try" out techniques on people in bars because it may very well be that the techniques don't work on a resisting partner and he ends up kicking your a**..well if it is all for the sake of learning i guess.?????? I would say that ?

well, we are practicing only techniques working on resisting attacker(not any "partner").Attacker is fully expected to do all what he want,resisting,make any counter, go home...etc..
That's why O'sensei called his art Budo and no "babycare ryu".
So trying techniques out is very easy, attacker in a dojo knows coming technique and we can do it efficiently anyway, attacker on the street has no idea, so it's much more easy.And it's a lot of fun!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you train techniques that you need a help from attacker?What is a goal of such strange and useless practice? What's a name of your activity, Help -ryu or something?



until you are extremely good, who would even consider starting trouble on purpose..furthermore, when you ARE that good, you shouldn't feel the need to test your skills in order to boost your self confidence should you? Man, If an instructor told me to go test my skills in the street to practice, I'd sneak out the door and change my address.


hi RollElbow, how do you know your are really good without testing you skills in real fight? Truly self confidence comes from real experience, not from fantasy land or coz your instructor told you are so so GOOD...


As for the training outside in 30 below weather, are you sure this statement is accurate? Do you wear long johns and a body suit under your gi? a face mask? shovel the parking lot? No security or surveillance cameras wondering why a bunch of crazy guys are running around with weapons in hand, sparring, or throwing wach other on the concrete?! Can anyone say cult or have i misinterpreted this post?

I'd be grateful if you could clear this up for me.

Well, very often we have strong winds so a real temperature will be about -50C...but we have never time to check it out, we are quite busy practicing...
Are you kidding about this stuff under a gi? How you are supposed to develop internal energy with any underwear? Monks in Himalayas make meditation few days long outside, and they are able to dry many wet suits only with their body (that’s why they don’t need a dryer, nor electricity) per hour, so we can show we can do it too.
Yes security guys were quite curious in the beginning, but after a while they got used, and some of them take a big plaisir to train with us.

regardz

Rolling Elbow
29th November 2000, 21:41
Man,

I can't make heads or tails of this....

But to answer some of your questions:

1. I don't practice on untrained opponents to practice my skills.

2. I suck so NO my intsructor does not, and will not say "bravo" and hand me another belt including the 150 stripes in between alla TKD

3. Did I forget to say that I sucked?! So attempting to see if my moves will work well on the street and "playing" with an opponent is not an option, nor is it easy. I don't need to get my ass kicked to see that I have not done the techniques correctly, made a bad tactical decision, or failed to grasp the principles learned thus far.

4. Internal energy all you want..30 below, you'll freeze to death if you meditate in a gi..your skin will freeze in seconds.

5. If I ever get into a fight again, I will not play..my elbows roll for a reason: hard weapon=smashed face. I'm not good enough to think beautiful movement or Steven Segeal movie perfection..I am competent enough though, to hit someone in the head or kick em' in the knee.

P.S- Do you pick the drunkest person or the guy with the least amount of friends? Why don't you try the bouncers..you can share your info with your club from a hospital bed.

Nick
30th November 2000, 00:29
Originally posted by szczepan

well, we are practicing only techniques working on resisting attacker(not any "partner").Attacker is fully expected to do all what he want,resisting,make any counter, go home...etc..
That's why O'sensei called his art Budo and no "babycare ryu".

Incorrect. O-sensei named his art Aikido, the way of harmony. If I fully resisted one of my sensei's techniques... well, all the ukemi in the world can't save a sprained wrist from a super-sankyo.



So trying techniques out is very easy, attacker in a dojo knows coming technique and we can do it efficiently anyway, attacker on the street has no idea, so it's much more easy.And it's a lot of fun!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the way you 'train', are you sure an attacker on the street isn't a defender, trying to stay alive while you prove how tough you are?



Do you train techniques that you need a help from attacker?What is a goal of such strange and useless practice? What's a name of your activity, Help -ryu or something?


The name of my "activity" is Suenaka-ha Tetsugaku-ho Aikido. My sensei in the so called "Help-ryu" trained with O'sensei... ya know, the creator of budo? May I ask who your teacher is, and who he trained with?

[QUOTE]
hi RollElbow, how do you know your are really good without testing you skills in real fight? Truly self confidence comes from real experience, not from fantasy land or coz your instructor told you are so so GOOD...[QUOTE]

Incorrect again. True self confidence, and perhaps even a satori or two, come from knowing the full potential of a technique, but being skilled enough and disciplined enough to choose to NOT use it.

[QUOTE]
Well, very often we have strong winds so a real temperature will be about -50C...but we have never time to check it out, we are quite busy practicing...
Are you kidding about this stuff under a gi? How you are supposed to develop internal energy with any underwear? Monks in Himalayas make meditation few days long outside, and they are able to dry many wet suits only with their body (that’s why they don’t need a dryer, nor electricity) per hour, so we can show we can do it too.
Yes security guys were quite curious in the beginning, but after a while they got used, and some of them take a big plaisir to train with us.

As mentioned before, ki/chi/the force or not, your skin would freeze. Period. I don't care how amazing you are.

Finally- your town is criminal-free? Than why you you continue bashing innocent people's faces in? Some philosophy of peace and love, neh?

I'll close with a few quotes, I've talked too much...

"Aikido is not an art to fight with enemies and defeat them. It is a way to lead all human beings to live in harmony with each other as though everyone were one family."

"People whose minds are evil or who enjoy fighting are defeated without a fight."

"The secret of aikido is to cultivate a spirit of loving protection for all things."

"Therefore to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true budo. True budo knows no defeat. "Never defeated" means "never fighting."


If you don't know who said those things, I feel sorry for you... it shouldn't be hard to figure it out. If you do, at least respect his wishes as the Creator of the art (hiny hint?)

Or perhaps you simply don't care about any of O'sensei's wishes, and you are content defamating his art?

Sadly,

Nick





[/B]

szczepan
30th November 2000, 03:17
Originally posted by Rolling Elbow
Man,

I can't make heads or tails of this....

But to answer some of your questions:

1. I don't practice on untrained opponents to practice my skills.

<snip>

4. Internal energy all you want..30 below, you'll freeze to death if you meditate in a gi..your skin will freeze in seconds.

<snip>.

P.S- Do you pick the drunkest person or the guy with the least amount of friends? Why don't you try the bouncers..you can share your info with your club from a hospital bed.



1.I'm with you here.We also take only very good street fighters to test dojo techniques.

4.Imperial English army did a lot of experiences with yogins and other meditating monks in Tybet and Himalayas.Your or my opinions means nothing against this.This is reality, believe me or not.

There are no bouncers in town.They are on unemployment(as police as well)- you know - we are here for peace and love.

regardz

Budoka
30th November 2000, 03:42
Hey Rolling Elbow, you're wasting your time. . .

As for training off the mat, I've noticed a number of instructors and dojo that train really hard, whether it's hard core techniques, or it's rolling in the parking lot, whatever, that a few things seem to hold true.

First, because of the heightened seriousness and perceived risk of injury people tend to be extra careful and as a result, tend to not be injured as much as in other dojo where a lighter, carefree attitude is taken, which inevitably leads to carefree injuries (rolling into another person, bad falls, etc). Go into a TKD dojo versus an aikido dojo and compare injuries. See who has more knee injuries, back injuries, people with cuts, bruises, etc. And aikido is an art "without" any kicks or punches. It happens because the minute we think we can't get hurt, we do.

Second, that euphoric feeling is caused by the fact that you really can be injured, and every time you take a roll, a fall, a breakfall on concrete or even on grass, you've stared death (or his cousin injury) in the eye, and come away the victor. That would make anyone feel euphoric. Multiply that times the number of falls you take, times the number of students doing it, and it's an almost giddy experience.

Just my two cents. . .

autrelle
30th November 2000, 14:14
to the new member: i can only speak for myself, but here is my opinion of what creates the typical reply by sczpalfrz:

1. the desire to get as much attention as humanly possible by posting some of the most outlandish crap, ever. notice that he won't answer a pretty simple question like who is his insrtuctor or how long he has been training. hmm???

2. i admit that sometimes something is lost in the translation. i get the impression that he can understand english perfectly, but typing it brings him a tiny bit of hardship.

3. not to be rude, but when i read a lot of his posts, i think he is a moron. this is based on repiles of his like the ones in this thread. hey, it's just my opinion.

my point: train as you want; it's your training. i personally feel that life will throw enough at you wihout going out and "testing" your technique "on the street." and don't take scdzzxpan to seriously.

truly,

Darren Yeow
30th November 2000, 14:50
It's very obvious that Mr. Szczepan (pronounced saucepan) is one of three things:

- a non-martial artist, and having stumbled across such a forum, wished to vent some of his imaginary prowess, in order to increase his ego.

- is a mislead martial artist, who has perhaps come across the word budo and the name O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) together at some stage, and believed the former to have been created by the latter, incorrect, I might add.

- is an person who believes they are an Aikidoka, learning from a wise old man, who encourages meaningless violence, subjects his students to extreme weather conditions (can you say hypothermia or heat stroke), and instills aggression into their behaviour - the exact opposite of what O Sensei preached.

Mr. saucepan, you do not exhibit the slightest hint of the psychographics of one taught in the aikido, or in general the martial way for that matter.

"We also take only very good street fighters to test dojo techniques."

Really, and how exactly do you pick out these very good street fighters?? Do they go by the name of Ryu and Ken, or do you ask them before engagement? I'm sorry, but this quote just highlights your immaturity.

"There are no bouncers in town.They are on unemployment(as police as well)- you know - we are here for peace and love."

This line is just pure backup to my previous statement, "unemployed police" - haven't you heard of transfer of resources? No bouncers? = no alchohol and no clubs? Must be a pretty boring town. The last seven words just contradict everything you've previously said.

Mr. saucepan, if it is your nature to hurt others, with little or no reason (other than selfish gains), may I kindly suggest gridiron or boxing, but certainly not an art such as Aikido, which promotes (and is built upon) peace and love. If you were to continue martial arts training, may I suggest an alteration of your thought process. By posing as an Aikidoka, you are degrading and insulting our chosen art, something which we do not appreciate in the slightest. Please vent your nonsense elsewhere.

Disapointedly
Darren Yeow

szczepan
30th November 2000, 16:30
Hi all,

Well, of course I was kidding.I'm sorry Matthew I didnt make fun of you.
I wanted to point out how big nonsens is training without mats.I dont mean here occassionaly breakfalls or if you have no choice falling down from stairs(yes, my wife did preseved her health with aikido habits falling down the stairs).
But regular training with no mats not allow to develop good spirit of practice, powerfull throwing,gives no chance for those who learn slower, and this is massive disaster for health(cummulative micro contusions during the years...).

hello sad Nick,
--------------
Incorrect. O-sensei named his art Aikido, the way of harmony. If I fully resisted one of my sensei's techniques... well, all the ukemi in the world can't save a sprained wrist from a super-sankyo.
----------------
I'm very surprised you teacher must sprain your wrist in order to do a technique if you fully resist.I thought aikido techniques are about harmonise with uke to show how useless is resistance and not about breaking bones.

hello Disapointed Darren Yeow,

yes, there is aikido world outside of Australia!It can content very different ideas about what aikido is.It is good to travel sometimes and train with other styles(see Ron??? I made a big progress!!)

regardz

ps however it's all true about this monks from Himalayas !

Ron Tisdale
30th November 2000, 16:38
Uuuuhhhh, guys, I think he was joking. Szszepan has his faults, I guess, as do we all but:

Maybe we could all lighten up a bit. Mostly, I think he trains hard, has a good sense of humor, and some of the humor gets lost in the translations...mind to keyboard to screen being the most difficult.

This is not to say that I aggree with all of his (serious) opinions. I don't. But I also don't think we need to take too many potshots either.

He's ramped me up once or twice as well. I've always found (upon reflection) that he was mostly joking, or perhaps just challenging my thinking a bit. From a somewhat "harder" perspective, he does have some valuable things to say.

Speaking of valuable things, what was the topic of this thread anyway????

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
30th November 2000, 20:42
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale

Speaking of valuable things, what was the topic of this thread anyway????

Ron Tisdale

I quess topic was " why it is impossible practice with no mats"? :D

regardz

ps Ron, I don't believe I could ramped you.....You practice hard and regulary...from my observations, this kind of Martial Artist isn't offended very easy :laugh:

Ron Tisdale
30th November 2000, 20:53
Hey, love you too, S. Us hardcase (wannabes) gotta stick together...

:)

RT

Nick
1st December 2000, 00:33
it's good to hear that that wasn't serious... regardless, what I was getting at is that if I fully resisted, tried countering, etc., my sensei could sprain my wrist much more easily than if I allowed him to blend. Aikido, while being called the Way of Harmony, has some very dangerous techniques, and if some are resisted, the results could be dangerous.

That's my opinion anyways...

Nick

Steve Williams
1st December 2000, 12:02
Originally posted by szczepan
Hi all,

Well, of course I was kidding.

Glad about that :)
[quote]I wanted to point out how big nonsens is training without mats.But regular training with no mats not allow to develop good spirit of practice, powerfull throwing,gives no chance for those who learn slower, and this is massive disaster for health(cummulative micro contusions during the years...).[quote]

I have to totally disagree with this statement (I assume you are now serious??)
Many throwing arts (or arts which include throwing) train without mats, my style included and also many [most?] ju-jutsu styles. Why should Aikidoka be any different??
Training without mats does not affect the spirit of practice or the power with which throws are made, if this is your view then you should try to get along to a lesson from another style :D

We still use mats on occasion, usually for beginners, but our core training is done without.

Jacob
1st December 2000, 12:31
Originally posted by autrelle
to the new member: i can only speak for myself, but here is my opinion of what creates the typical reply by sczpalfrz:

1. the desire to get as much attention as humanly possible by posting some of the most outlandish crap, ever. notice that he won't answer a pretty simple question like who is his insrtuctor or how long he has been training. hmm???

While we are at it, why not ask questions like, where do you train, the name of the dojo, the name of the instructor, a telephone number for the club, and so on. So far I've read nothing but lies and garbage. Prove you tell the truth, or take your sorry *ss cry for attention somewhere else!

Are you a man, Szczepan? An Aikidoka? A martial artist at all? Or are you just a disturped 15 year old kid with nothing better to do that jerk off at lying about how cool and tough you are. Nerd!

Steve Williams
1st December 2000, 13:04
Originally posted by Jacob
[QUOTE]Are you a man, Szczepan? An Aikidoka? A martial artist at all? Or are you just a disturped 15 year old kid with nothing better to do that jerk off at lying about how cool and tough you are. Nerd!

Hey Jacob

Name calling is not the answer.

If you look at the posts by Szczepan then you will see that they are predominantly in the Aikido forum, his second post was about an Aikido seminar in Canada, he joined 05-21-2000 and has only 82 posts so far.
I think your "disturbed 15 year old jerking off" comment is both incorrect and unfair (not to mention rude), any kid (or even any non-martial artist) would have got bored by now.

If you want to comment on peoples posts and you do not immediately get a straight answer then dont automatically insult them, do a little probing and checking first.
Some people like to keep certain things to themselves (I dont know why they keep some things secret) that is their right.

Kolschey
1st December 2000, 13:09
Whoa now folks! Let us put down the propane tanks for a minute. I am inclined to believe that Mr. Sczespan was being humourous in the beginning of this thread as a means of questioning the validity of training on hard surfaces. If this is so, then perhaps his irony was lost in the translation. Perhaps we are sufficiently accustomed to to use of smilies as a means of indicating humour that their abscence is presumed to indicate seriousness in a post, regardless of how silly or provocative the statement.
Or as was said in Monty Python's The Holy Grail:
" This is supposed to be a HAPPY time! Let's not all be bickering and arguing about who killed who.." :)

autrelle
1st December 2000, 13:37
i think that if no one is going to ask scxzzpanto reconsider his style of posting (which, really, no one should), then it's not fair to tell someone else how to reply (turnig dow the propane?). i think that the majority of his posts are, well, crap. mere rhetoric designed to provoked higher view counts and responses. i might be wrong, but i'm only stating my opinion. i also feel that he merely attempts to veil his sarcasm behind the emoticons and smileys, again, this is IMHO. i just think that to a beginning reader, his posts can be taken as caustic if taken to heart. especially to those who train hard under TEACHERS at a DOJO and sometimes find themselves usung their AIKIDO to PROTECT themselves or others from danger. i for one, sometimes get really annoyed with his "charm." but that could be just me. but to suggest that others tone down their reactions is in my opinion, absurd.

truly.

Ron Tisdale
1st December 2000, 14:25
I'm not sure just toning down is the answer, or the actual request of most of us. Think first about

RESPECT.

The language used a few posts above is not necessary. In my view, it should not be tolerated. This is not to say that I am perfect. I am sometimes overly sarcastic. But the main point is, we all have things we choose not to share, we all have things that upon greater reflection, we might not say. Szszepan has made it quite clear he was joking. If you don't like the joke, say so. Just say it politely.

I just love it when we talk about harmony, then excoriate someone like Szszepan. This is not to say that harmony doesn't sometimes equate to a hard throw. But really....Szszepan is *not* a certain ex-member whose name begins with a P. (I didn't really go there, did I...)
:)

Ron Tisdale

PS If you ask for an affiliation, I suggest you start by giving your own. I try not to make my own overly public out of respect for my teacher. My statements do not represent him or his ideas or thoughts. They are mine alone, and if they are well thought out and well presented, I shouldn't need his "authority" to give them validity. Anyhow, most people have figured out where I train and with whom anyway. That's just fine. I just don't see a need to make a big deal out of it.
RT

szczepan
1st December 2000, 15:10
Originally posted by Steve Williams

I have to totally disagree with this statement (I assume you are now serious??)
Many throwing arts (or arts which include throwing) train without mats, my style included and also many [most?] ju-jutsu styles. Why should Aikidoka be any different??
Training without mats does not affect the spirit of practice or the power with which throws are made, if this is your view then you should try to get along to a lesson from another style :D

We still use mats on occasion, usually for beginners, but our core training is done without.



Hi Steve,

My knowlege about Shorinji Kempo is very limited(only to few demo) but I have a lot respect for you guys.U train very realistic stuff.Now when I think, I remember on a demo they made all throwing on wooden floor.I don't know how long you can do that in your life, but on demo those guys were young and had a lot muscles.
That's not always case in aikido.Most of new beginners have no muscles at all(well very little :D) and milage vary...Also the dynamic of my style aikido is very different.An enter to throw is very dynamic from certain distance,we throw high and very far, all practice is Very dynamic - on contrary to most styles of JJ.
Giving all these condition together, practice on good mat quarantee good health even under very heavy physical stress for a body all your life.Hope you can tell same for your style.
Of course all our high ranking ppl can do any high hard breakfall on concret(or wood), but it takes time to learn, and trick is not to ruin a health during this time.In aikido in order to protect an attacker , first we have to protect ourselves :bandit:

Hi Angry Jacob!

So what kind of karate you practice? Can you kill a bull with one strike? or may be you practice this very magical karate without any contact at all? :laugh:
In any case a world is a bit more complicated then qyaku tsuki or mawashi geri :D

Ever heard about E.Ionesco or Beckett?

keep training

Darren Yeow
2nd December 2000, 13:23
Hi Szczepan,

I guess typed words can't really express moods at all, I was under the impression that you were just some smart ass trying to get attention. But really, if you intended it to be a joke, you should have made it abit more obvious, as quite clearly it's not only me that thought otherwise (just have a look at the number of flames). Well anyway, no hard feelings.

DY

Mike Collins
5th December 2000, 01:09
Szczepan, man you rule!!

Seriously, I have seen video of my teacher taking ukemi for an advanced Japanese teacher (I saw this video years ago, when I hadn't heard of anyone, and was too timid to ask for names), for about 45 minutes in a demo, one throw after another on a hardwood floor. It may or may not have been sprung, but it sure as hell was hardwood.

This impressed me on two levels- My teacher was taking falls for that long, I'd have long since puked up a lung. And he was doing it all on hardwood.

What is funny, is this guy teaches what Szczepan calls Aikifruitty Aikido. No full resistance, no one gets killed, maimings have been virtually banned, and not everyone can defend themselves (some simply don't care).

My teacher has made it quite clear that he has never had a fight in his life. I on the other hand, spent much of a misspent youth in bars and am no stranger to a sucker punch. I'd rather have him on my side than anyone I ever met who liked to fight and was good at it, and I knew quite a few.

I don't care to train on hardwood or concrete, but if you want to, and are careful, it is not unprecedented. This being America and all.....

M Clarke
7th December 2000, 02:39
Can't deny that there are some hard-arse budo types out there. I know a bunch of koryu types that live in a terrace house and train on carpet over concrete. They go out for some serious drinking and come home at three in the morning and start testing out kyusho's and stuff like that. Mad as a box full of bull ants. However... I got pick up on something SZC said; He also does night training with live blade doing free sparing. Bull. Sorry, but that's just plain !!!!!!!!.
Rgds
Mike

Mike Collins
7th December 2000, 02:47
Oy Mike,

We've pretty much established that Szczepan is a bit given to telling tales that are bovine scatologically bent. That's not really news. I'm pretty sure in this case though, he was coming forth with a little humor (Very little:))

Ron Tisdale
7th December 2000, 17:28
Something I find interesting....Shioda S. talks of Ueshiba S. taking the prewar deshi up on a mountain where they all tie hachimaki (headbands?) on their heads, at night. Then they practise with live blades, using the white hachimaki to know where they are striking. I've done bokken practise in the dark in the mountains, but it was solo. Suburri cuts and the like. We waited for some light before the partner practise....whew!

Shioda S.'s story is in Aikido Masters by Stanly Pranin.

Ron Tisdale

Russ Qureshi
7th December 2000, 18:37
Where's your sense of humour. Man, we're all so damn serious on this forum, is it "flame fear". If one could not see that sczepan was being "witty"...., I don't what to say then....,it was pretty obvious.

In my own attempt at wit I'll say I'm heartened that so many are able to see, right away, that night training with live blades, blindfolded and hopefully with a torrential downpour to boot is bull****.

Russ

szczepan
8th December 2000, 04:38
Yeah, Ron...If you want to look deeper, you may find more coincidences...many of uchideshi of M.Ueshiba went out to test their techniques. One of them finally was killed. In early days, in dojo, there were any hitting/ventilation systems, during wintertime they opened windows and only way not to catch cold was very vigorous training. Also, between classes at Iwama, uchideshi worked with O'sensei on the fields, cleaned their clothes in a river...

today...well, TODAY, we......I mean, we are so sure what is right and what is wrong....

Oops...I feel more flames coming soon :smash:

regardz

MarkF
8th December 2000, 07:55
Just as a side note to this thread, Winter Training was very much as stated by Szczepan, at the Kodokan, and the winter still holds a special place to most in judo for training.

On cement. For those who have the paperback issue of the latest publication from the Kodokan of Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano, take a look on page 63, gokyo no waza, a throw called uki-goshi, or Floating hip throw. They are doing kata on cement slabs, outdoors, instead of on the dirt/grass which is right next to them. It is also in the original edition of 1958 for the collectors out there, but I don't have the page at hand, at the moment. The date of the photo, judging by the length of the judogi pants is probably 1905 to 1910. BTW: There is snow on the ground, but they chose the dry cement instead of the cold ground.

I don't know if anyone does train this way or not anymore, but they certainly used to, and as recently as the early seventies, at my dojo, it was just carpet over concrete, and this was a new facility, under direction of Tukuo B. Ota Sensei.

Lastly, calm down! Read the rules of the forum if you have lost all your senses. "Profanity will not be tolerated!" Treat your fellow members with respect. You get only one warning.

Mark





[Edited by MarkF on 12-08-2000 at 01:59 AM]

M Clarke
11th December 2000, 01:23
Apologies to SZC and the forum for my use of profanity.

I don't have problems about hard training, winter training, waterfall misogi. I've heard about monks melting the snow around them with their body heat. Our senior students take breakfalls on concrete before shoden. All this is quite au fait with me... I just got a bit het up about free sparing with live swords at night. Sorry I didn't see the implied tongue-in-cheek if it was a joke. And I stand corrected if in fact, this does occur in some dojos around the world.
Regards
Mike

Jacob
11th December 2000, 07:50
I also, most sincerely appologise. I was wrong to use profanity and wrong to treat my fellew man without respect. With that out of our collective systems, I would very much like to know how you of all people, who pratice Aikido, a gentle art with heavy emphasis on non-violence, can tolerate it when a guy says openly that he and his students-buddies beat up innocent people in bars? And that his sensei encourages this behaviour. Isn't that a personal insult to O'sensei and the art itself? I'm sorry but I just don't see whats so "ammusing" about this SCZ.

Be honest... How many of you would laugh if someone told a crack about your mothers? But you can laugh when someone riddicules your chosen art? Well, we're just on diffenrent waveleinghts I guess.

Oh and NO, I don't belive I can kill a bull with a single punch, and in any event I'm not going to find out. But at least I can say the same thing about real people. I don't know if I can kill a person with a single punch, because I haven't tried it, and, unlike you, I'm not going to try it.

MarkF
11th December 2000, 11:44
I'm sorry I came off so bluntly, but the moderator of this forum is not in town until tomorrow, and he asked if the rest of us would stop in now and then. As to the so-called profanity, it doesn't bother me in the least, but it may bother someone, and that is really the reason for the intolerance of profanity. There aren't many rules to this forum, but that is one, as is attacking another member.

That said, it works both ways, and even if you are not referring to anyone in particular, it is easy to start a flame war over just a statement of "mine is better (or training is) than yours."

This works both ways. Also, I have a surname as ethnic as anyone here, and gets murdered on any given day, by almost everyone. Same thing applies. Copy it to your post if you can't remember the spelling. Arguments are fine, just don't attack.

Mark

Mike Collins
12th December 2000, 01:33
Never, ever, in my wildest dreams did I ever expect to find myself defending Szczepan.

The man was making light of the concept of hard training by making a silly, and possibly offensive (to the easily offended) over the top reference to the kind of silly claims made by some folks in the martial arts.

I'm pretty sure that he has never actually started a fight in a bar just to see if it works (based on his concepts, I doubt that it would, but that is another flame war :)).

I'm also pretty sure that he has never trained outside at night with a live blade at full speed- such practices are stupid, and deadly- kids, don't try this at home, you can die (and dead is badd).

Let's all lighten up, and move on.

Szczepan, you are a badd badd man (I assume that you are a man). Stop making the other campers mad.

Mike Collins
12th December 2000, 01:40
As to hard training, I've read a lot about the aescetic training done by Osensei, and many of his students. He and some of the legendary students from a bygone era actually did go to the mountains and train with live blades (Though I'm not sure whether the students or just Osensei had the live blades).

I've read that at Hombu dojo, there used to be a preference for training without heat in winter, and I don't know whether there is or was any AC for summer. Aikido has a lot of precedence for harsh (though not stupid) training.

A blade gets sharper by a lot of pounding and fire.

Me, I likes my HVAC and nice soft mats. But then, my fighting days are over.

Ron Tisdale
12th December 2000, 13:58
From the quote in Aikido Masters, they all had live blades I believe. On beating up people in bars, it is said that Shioda Kancho and others were wondering if the aikido techniques would work. It is said they went down to the docks, hit the bars, and found out. In the affirmative, I might add. Course, just cause they made them work, doesn't mean sqat about me.

Note that there is a precedent for everything that Mr. S. has joked about in this thread. Good to see people lightening up.

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
12th December 2000, 16:01
Originally posted by Jacob
I also, most sincerely appologise. I was wrong to use profanity and wrong to treat my fellew man without respect. With that out of our collective systems, I would very much like to know how you of all people, who pratice Aikido, a gentle art with heavy emphasis on non-violence, can tolerate it when a guy says openly that he and his students-buddies beat up innocent people in bars? And that his sensei encourages this behaviour. Isn't that a personal insult to O'sensei and the art itself? I'm sorry but I just don't see whats so "ammusing" about this SCZ.

JB,

I understand coz my poor english our communication can't be perfect.So I'll repeat one more time.

IT WAS A JOKE!

Now, it is obvious, not all jokes are amusing to everybody in the world.If you don't like it, forget it.

Insult to O'sensei - please read carefully what he did in his life.He wasn't any god.I understand that beginners have ideal image of him and his art, but reality is very different.Example - in 30-ties,before IIWW he taught soldiers in military academy - I doubt very much he taught them non violence or harmony and love - they were in preparation to go for fight and kill others human being.How he reconciled it with his peacefull believes from Omoto, I don't know, I'm not his juge.
So before juging me so severly, take a look in the literature, read, learn and use some brain in futures discussions...and not only superficial emotions.

regardz

Mike Collins
12th December 2000, 16:48
Now that's the Szczepan I'm used to. Direct, brusque, rude, and somewhat offensive, while staying mildly correct. Bravo, bravo. You've yet again affirmed my opinions.

jzimba
12th December 2000, 21:02
Dear Czezman! please accept my apology on behalf of all the folks here who don't appreciate your humour.
I think you'll find a better reception in a forum where budo isn't taken quite so seriously. I for one think some of your slightly broken English is put on because you know it makes people believe the outlandish things you say. it's great. I wish I could do it.

Unfortunately the world doesn't appear to be quite ready for you. or at least the world according to aikidoka. It's not their fault, but there are the quiet ones of us out here who are getting the last laugh along with you.

keep it up pal,

Joel

Ruairi Quinn
12th December 2000, 22:48
Hi all-

Someone has posted a thread in the hapkido forum (which in itself is bizarre) at Budoseek. They've taken Sczepan seriously and at least one of them is going mildly ballistic. It's a thread called "Bad news".

Nick
12th December 2000, 22:52
As budoka I feel that most of us can take a joke, but if we seriously believed that you were defrauding as art (as many of us did) many of us are obviously ready to defend it... I doubt I would have gone off on you as I did if I realized it was not meant to be taken seriously, but please know that I won't apologize for defending my art...

Nick

szczepan
13th December 2000, 03:35
Originally posted by Mike Collins
Now that's the Szczepan I'm used to. Direct, brusque, rude, and somewhat offensive, while staying mildly correct. Bravo, bravo. You've yet again affirmed my opinions.

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to be rude or offensive.I'm quite busy last days and english is my fourth language,so there is plenty of place to improve it.

regardz

szczepan
13th December 2000, 03:43
Originally posted by jzimba
Dear Czezman! please accept my apology on behalf of all the folks here who don't appreciate your humour.
I think you'll find a better reception in a forum where budo isn't taken quite so seriously. I for one think some of your slightly broken English is put on because you know it makes people believe the outlandish things you say. it's great. I wish I could do it.

Unfortunately the world doesn't appear to be quite ready for you. or at least the world according to aikidoka. It's not their fault, but there are the quiet ones of us out here who are getting the last laugh along with you.

keep it up pal,

Joel

Hi Joel,
how's going?Nice to seeUhere.Why did you chose DJAJJ instead of aikido?Would you mind to compare?

thx

regardz

Jacob
13th December 2000, 15:01
Okay everybody.

It's obvious that Szczepan just wants attention, and finds it most easily by saying outrageous things. So if you're tired of him, just stop replying his posts.