Noto tsksr versus mjer

[ulvulv]

Hopefully, curiosity will not kill the cat:

For those of you who practise one of these koryu, and perhaps have had some exposure to the other art; What is the difference between the noto used in the iai-jutsu part of tsksr and the one in mjer. I have gone trough the tsksr kata 10 years ago on two different occasions, and I have seen Mjer embu several times, and there are similarities and differences that I want to nail down.

In the noto of mjer, is there little or no sayabiki, so the right hand do most of the work, while in tskrs you lift the koiguchi higher from obi? ??? Right or wrong?

Other?

[Jock Armstrong]

I'm not a TSKSR practitioner- though I would love to study it one day- but I have seen people performing tech on video, including Otake sensei and Sugino sensei. Each person did their noto slightly differently. Sugino sensei's noto was more "vertical", the koiguchi being lifted higher than I've seen any MJER or seitei iai student doing. Otake sensei's was flatter, but still very much the TSKSR reverse grip. I hope that a TSKSR practitioner can hop on this and give you definitive information but it seems to me that the ryu's teachers aren't primarily concerned much with the exact positioning of the blade/saya as the overall practicality of the noto. Within general guidelines they seem to believe that there will be a fairly wide variety of angles/positions of hands/koiguchi heights due to the individual make up of peoples' bodies. Getting the sword back into the saya properly is the main goal, not its form or "look". This was pretty much the attitude at my own dojo in Japan [Nakamura/toyama] where the general guideline was "run the back of the blade along the back of your hand and it'll drop in if your left hand holds the koiguchi right". I trained a little with the MJER class in the same budokan and they were very conscious of the saya angle, hand position etc.

I can't definitively say anything about the TSKSR way but from casual observation it would seem they mould the tech to each student, rather than demand the students conform to a rigid methodology.

[Steve Delaney]

For those of you who practise one of these koryu, and perhaps have had some exposure to the other art; What is the difference between the noto used in the iai-jutsu part of tsksr and the one in mjer. I have gone trough the tsksr kata 10 years ago on two different occasions, and I have seen Mjer embu several times, and there are similarities and differences that I want to nail down.

In the noto of mjer, is there little or no sayabiki, so the right hand do most of the work, while in tskrs you lift the koiguchi higher from obi? ??? Right or wrong?

Other?

What similarities/differences do you see?

I am a little confused, since the osamegata (resheathing method) most commonly used in MJER is Junte tate osame (Orthodox grip, vertical resheathing).

TSKSR's osamegata is sakate osame (reverse hand grip resheating).

[Karasu Maru]

Hi,

Wakayama Tomisaburou shows noutou (or Osametou) technique of Katori Shintou-Ryu in his movie "Lone wolf with cab".

There is sakate-notou in various schools.
A movie of sakate-notou of Jigou Tenshin-Ryu derived from Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu is as follows;
http://www.jigoutenshin.jp/douga/noutou.mpg

Regards,

[Steve Delaney]

Yes,

I was in correspondance with their secretary earlier on this year. They have some very interesting kata. Their chiburi is very 'hade'. I've never seen anything else like it in any other ryuha.

[Jock Armstrong]

I think the first part signifies cleaning the blade [with a cloth] the spin is just cool. Its not hard to do and just looks great. I've used it at demos so we can show off a bit. Nakamura ryu uses a small chiburi most of the time- even the reverse grip ones are short and practical. I like the TSKSR spin chiburi myself and that one in the video- guess I'm just a ham...........

[A. Bakken]

Roar: I have a book with lots of pictures of TSKSR iai done by Risuke Osake. (It's the French edition of The Deity and the Sword.) As far as I can tell, the noto shown there is quite different from MJER. I'll bring along the book to the dojo.

[Steve Delaney]

Yes they are rather chalk and cheese.

[kongoshin]

Hopefully, curiosity will not kill the cat:

For those of you who practise one of these koryu, and perhaps have had some exposure to the other art; What is the difference between the noto used in the iai-jutsu part of tsksr and the one in mjer. I have gone trough the tsksr kata 10 years ago on two different occasions, and I have seen Mjer embu several times, and there are similarities and differences that I want to nail down.

In the noto of mjer, is there little or no sayabiki, so the right hand do most of the work, while in tskrs you lift the koiguchi higher from obi? ??? Right or wrong?

Other?

The difference is that the reverse grip noto of MJER is horizontal and the TSKSR one is vertical... That means, the MJER (as I've seen it) is in height of the obi, whereas the TSKSR is done by having the blade swing on the left side of the body. The right hand is in front of the body (center line).
Sugino dojo and the Otake line does it slightly different.

[devourment77]

the noto of mjer, is there little or no sayabiki

It probably depends on the branch of MJER you saw. In Yamauchi-Ha MJER (Komei Jyuku) we have to do a ton of sayabiki because we use 33 inch blades (2-8-0).

[hyaku]

It probably depends on the branch of MJER you saw. In Yamauchi-Ha MJER (Komei Jyuku) we have to do a ton of sayabiki because we use 33 inch blades (2-8-0).

Yes we know. I'ts well talked about at the moment here in Japan. I wondered could you tell us why?

[fifthchamber]

Sorry to derail for a second..
But Colin, I saw a nice article on you and the rest of the "blue eyed Musashi" at the Hiroshima Kobudosai in a magazine recently..It went on about the Last Samurai phenom and some other stuff..Looked like a good day..Just thought you should know..
Regards.

[hyaku]

Sorry to derail for a second..
But Colin, I saw a nice article on you and the rest of the "blue eyed Musashi" at the Hiroshima Kobudosai in a magazine recently..It went on about the Last Samurai phenom and some other stuff..Looked like a good day..Just thought you should know..
Regards.

Got a copy in the post yesterday. This guy took hundreds of photo's. I was surprised he chose that one.

[Alex Dale]

Any scans, maybe, for the less fortunate of us without access to the publication?


Regards,

[hyaku]

Any scans, maybe, for the less fortunate of us without access to the publication?


Regards,
Double page spread Had to join them.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~hyoho/hiro.html

[GTO]

I like how, even when you're bending over, you're still noticeably taller than your partner. The Japanese must think you're Godzilla or something... ;)

[devourment77]

Yes we know. I'ts well talked about at the moment here in Japan. I wondered could you tell us why?

Why we use long swords? I have only been training for about a year, but I believe it is because of influence from the Tosa Clan (I guess they used long swords). It may just be that Sekiguchi Komei Sensei just likes longer blades. When Sekiguchi Sensei gave Bushey Sensei (my Sensei) a 2-8-0 Iaito, he told him "Here is a lifetime challenge".

I will ask my Sensei to see if he has any other information.

[ulvulv]

I guess people are puzzled, because mjer in usual use smaller sword. Pushing a monsterswordsword around, does thing to your form, and will perhaps weaken the riai in some respects. or at least change it. What do I know. I remember that Chris Gilham in his "iai-journey", described a practise with a sekiguchi group:
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_gilham_0101.htm

Gilham:
"It’s my opinion that these big swords are probably the least practical of sword weapons one would have possibly used in any period of Japan's warfare. I certainly can’t imagine them being the weapons worn by samurai. How and why these swords have come to be a fundamental component of this system is not clear to me. Some more research in this area would be a good thing."

[Jonathan Tow]

I remember that Chris Gilham in his "iai-journey", described a practise with a Sekiguchi group:
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_gilham_0101.htm

Yes, I'm familiar with that article. Of note, the Adelaide dojo mentioned in the article is not a member of the Komei Juku. I won't get into the details suffice to say that Sekiguchi-sensei has washed his hands of that group. Please don't refer to them as examples of the Komei Juku.

Sekiguchi-sensei pushes the 'longer blade' line as a challenge for us to keep refining and developing our technique. Eg "You know the curriculum with a 2-6-0 blade. Now do it with a 2-8-0." I personally started with a shorter blade to learn the techniques before I moved up. Sekiguchi-sensei has commented at times of making one's technique look like it suited a daimyo or the modern equivalent - a President.

I've also heard explained that he teaches the use of longer swords as it's easier to narrow down technique if needed, but harder making it bigger unless you already were used to it. He also used it as a metaphor to describe having an outlook on life - big not small. These are only a few reasons for the long swords - he has more. :D

In comment to what Chris Gilham wrote, historically the Satsuma clan were known for having a penchance for large swords. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Shinsengumi use longer-than-standard swords to make a political statement?

The bottom line is that we do MJER with long swords - that's simply how we're being taught. :)

Best,

Jonathan Tow

[ulvulv]

As a sidenote; Is Mr Gilham still in the "iai-loop", or did he "de-nipponize" at the arrival back in the States? Just curious. :) Enjoyed his articles.

[devourment77]

It’s my opinion that these big swords are probably the least practical of sword weapons one would have possibly used in any period of Japan's warfare. I certainly can’t imagine them being the weapons worn by samurai.

That is from the article.. I do not know why he is so suprised at long swords, sometimes samurai in the front lines of battle would use nodachi and be like a shock troop ( I would not want to get in their way when they swing that around). Sasaki Kojiro also seemed to do pretty well with a long sword. It was also explained to me that the length of the sword was like a status symbol. Similar to what Mr. Tow said, I have been told that "If you know the long sword, you will know all other shorter swords". We also use 33 inch bokkens at our dojo (custom).

I completely understand where he was coming from though, if I had only been using 27 inch blades then tried my hand at a 33, I would have thought it was akward just as he did. When I trained with Sekiguchi Sensei in Texas (under the Texas Komei Jyuku) I never noticed Sekiguchi Sensei's head bobbing or anything crazy about his movements. The only thing I noticed was that his cuts where huge. He would reach out really far on his kirioroshi and push it down (as opposed to pulling your cut down).

Hope it helps. Sorry for being off topic, we should probably make a new thread to continue this discussion and not mess up this thread about noto.

[hyaku]

Well I really cant disgree on this as its one of the principles of Kageryu.

I myself have spent some time using "longer" heavier weapons. I have always used a 2.8 for Iaido and draw a 3.8. Also shorter lighter ones to try and widen my experience in relating kahashin to both. Also trying to follow Musashi's principle of a good carpenter.

I have heard Oe Sensei was a big man and used a slightly longer blade. But did not know there was any decided motivation within MJER to use longer heavier weapons. This of course is the perogative of Komei Sensei. Maybe it would help if he made his views metioned here by Mr Tow more public. I guess a lot see his weapons and get the wrong idea.

I did see him last week and stayed in the same hotel. Didn't have a chance to speak to him apart from a quick hello. I have given friends my 2.8 to try out. A lot say it's too much for them. But when they used it they look to me like they have jumped up a few levels. I am a firm believer in using any weapon that is sometimes larger or even much lighter to increase my experience.

Still... to each his own...... :)

[Ken-Hawaii]

Interesting thought, Hyaku, on your being "a firm believer in using any weapon that is sometimes larger or even much lighter to increase my experience." Of course none of us can doubt your own use of a monster blade, but how could that help the rest of us?

Case in point: My iaito is over in California having the saya repaired, & I was loaned an iaito that is somewhat longer than my usual (2-6-0 instead of 2-4-5), as well as being lighter in weight. I forgot to mention this fact to Sensei prior to yesterday's practice, & suffice it to say that his comments on my performance in MJER were not particularly complimentary. :rolleyes: I guess that, by definition, this did increase my experience, but I kinda' assumed that you meant in a positive fashion of some sort.

Should we all be training with a variety of weapons, including length, weight, & even sharpness? How & why could this help us? I'm going under the assumption that samurai probably practiced with a single weapon, in large part because that was all they could afford, but most of us today have a bit more discretionary income to enable us to buy a second weapon.

[charlesl]

Should we all be training with a variety of weapons, including length, weight, & even sharpness? How & why could this help us? I'm going under the assumption that samurai probably practiced with a single weapon, in large part because that was all they could afford, but most of us today have a bit more discretionary income to enable us to buy a second weapon.

Heh, at first I thought you meant different weapons in general (jo, spear, kusari gama, etc.), and then I realized you meant different swords. Duh.

Well, if you go from the context that you ought to be able to pick up any sword on the battlefield and have to, I'd guess that training with different lengths/weights would be handy. And assuming that everyone in your group has a sword "custom" for them, and that they're different lengths/weights, you could just swap around a bit now and then rather than having to buy a full kit for everybody.

But, I think I've seen some guys doing kata with those honkin' big blades at one of those embu thingys, and if'n they were the same as the ones I recall, I think they'd fall into the category of a whole different weapon. I remember thinking that at some time Japan must've been planning to invade India and needed a one-man weapon for taking down elephants. Kind of a medieval bazooka. But it was neat to see the bsg (big sworded guy) whip it out and show the lsg who's in charge. IIRC, I think there were some kata against kodachi as well.

If you were interested, I might have some video I could shoot ya.

[carl mcclafferty]

Jock:
Just think of "Ha wo mae ni noto" as coming vertically from the left shoulder joint. We do the same noto as tsksr in one of the SGR atemi kata, having done Ha wo mae ni noto, makes it relatively easy to adjust to.

As far as Japanese using huge swords, Yamada Sensei is almost 4'10" and uses a 29" shinken for kata and tameshigiri. At that ratio not sure what length would be comparable to us 6' or taller, but I think it would be quite long.

Carl McClafferty

[Scott Irey]

Hopefully, curiosity will not kill the cat:

In the noto of mjer, is there little or no sayabiki, so the right hand do most of the work, while in tskrs you lift the koiguchi higher from obi? ??? Right or wrong?

Other?

Well back to the original question. In the branches of MJER that I practice there is a lot of sayabiki in noto. In fact back in the 80's Adachi Hirosaburo taught noto with lots of sayabiki and a strong twist of the hips.

Other branches of MJER may and will vary...

[Ken-Hawaii]

I had to go back & read the entire thread to see where we started - sure moved the subject around a lot!

I agree with Scott that the MJER branch we study in Kaifukan Dojo (called "True" Tanimura-ha through Ikeda Sensei, according to Erik's most useful lineage chart) uses a lot of saya-biki for noto. Sensei initially taught us to insert the kissaki in the horizontal position into the koiguchi, but changed that to the vertical position after his trip to Japan about 18 months ago. That switch to vertical requires a lot more accurate saya-biki, by the way.

Twisting of the hips isn't mandatory with the 2-4-5 iaito I usually use, but as I mentioned, using the 2-6-0 loaner last practice was darn near impossible to noto without significant hip-twist!

Charles, I'd love to see that video you shot. I can read MiniDV, VHS, & SVHS directly from tape, but can also work with just about any digital file format you may use (Mac or Windows).

[Brian Owens]

...Sensei initially taught us to insert the kissaki in the horizontal position into the koiguchi, but changed that to the vertical position after his trip to Japan about 18 months ago.
In Seiki Ryu (at the level I was at, anyway) we did the vertical noto. When I was practicing Muso Shinden Ryu with Kono Sensei I had a really hard time with noto for a while, because they used the horizontal method.

I prefer the former, but I'm sure that's because I was more familiar with it.

[ulvulv]

Well back to the original question. In the branches of MJER that I practice there is a lot of sayabiki in noto. In fact back in the 80's Adachi Hirosaburo taught noto with lots of sayabiki and a strong twist of the hips.

Other branches of MJER may and will vary...

Some questions:

When you do "your" noto, with "lot of sayabiki" in mjer, what direction doe the saya travel, is it more towards the floor, or towards your back?

When you place the sword on the koiguchi, is the "edge" of the koiguchi pointing up, or sideways?

Do you keep the left hand close to the obi during noto?

In znkr-iai and msr as I know it, the little finger on the left hand is in light contact with the obi troughout the noto, to ensure proper hand/body work without "shortcuts". Are there similar "rules" or checkpoints in mjer?

[Chidokan]

My style of MJER noto has the saya slightly off vertical, in line with the sword. I think of ramming my little finger towards my spine in order to keep the saya tight to the body/belt, which keeps the saya precisely in line with the sword. I dont particularly think of where the saya is going apart from it going on to the sword, rather than the sword being put into the saya. The tsuka is pointing forward to tekki, therefore the saya is also on the same line.

I agree with Hyaku on not depending on any particular weight, length or balance, although I do lean towards using one particular sword in my possession at the moment. Its sharp so makes me more 'careful' on my technique, which is the 'subtle hint' I got last trip. No doubt a long kissaki will be next. :rolleyes:

[Scott Irey]

Some questions:

When you do "your" noto, with "lot of sayabiki" in mjer, what direction doe the saya travel, is it more towards the floor, or towards your back?

When you place the sword on the koiguchi, is the "edge" of the koiguchi pointing up, or sideways?

Do you keep the left hand close to the obi during noto?

In znkr-iai and msr as I know it, the little finger on the left hand is in light contact with the obi troughout the noto, to ensure proper hand/body work without "shortcuts". Are there similar "rules" or checkpoints in mjer?

We wrap the saya around the body. Think of pulling the koiguchi back towards your kidney. The edge faces strait up in one version and 45 degrees out to the left in the other. We keep the left hand close to the obi...the little finger should maintain contact with the obi when performing sayabiki.

Hope that answers your questions.

Regards,

[ulvulv]

Almost forgot this one. Thx, that is how I remember mjer-noto. Now; do you have the same noto throughout shoden, chuden and okuden, or are there technical differences or differences in speed or timing? Msr separates between a shoden-chuden and okuden-noto, I would guess the same counts for mjer. Or maybe not..o? :p

To noto or not to noto thats the question. Cough cough ;D

[Chidokan]

same as nukitsuke... noto changes as you rise through the levels. This is to do with skill more than changing from shoden to chuden to okuden, although the okuden is subtly different...Its something you can show, not explain very well though...

[jezah81]

Hi all,

This has been a very interesting thread to read. My comment goes to Hyaku who mentioned that Oe Masamichi used longer blades in relation to his height. I have been told that he used 2-3-5 shaku blades. So, did he use different lengths at different times or was a 2-3-5 a big blade for him in those times?

Kind Regards,

Jeremy Hagop

[Ken-Hawaii]

In our MJER dojo, Sensei has us "talk story" with noto, as well as with the other parts of each waza, Ulvulv. In other words, as we progress through the waza, we may go very slowly, then a little faster, & then very fast, & back to slow. As each waza tells a different "story," the noto also changes.

I haven't seen a tremendous difference in the overall way that noto is done going from basic Seitei Iai through shoden to okuden, to be honest, although the timing has certainly changed. Holding your opponents' attention via feints (i.e., Shihoto Sono Ichi/Ni), ensuring the poor sucker is well & truly deceased (a la Tsukikomi), or addressing multiple attackers (So Makuri) are all done with varying levels of zanshin, which translates to me as including differences in noto.

Is that what you were asking, Roar? :rolleyes:

[ulvulv]

In our MJER dojo, Sensei has us "talk story" with noto, as well as with the other parts of each waza, Ulvulv. In other words, as we progress through the waza, we may go very slowly, then a little faster, & then very fast, & back to slow. As each waza tells a different "story," the noto also changes.

I haven't seen a tremendous difference in the overall way that noto is done going from basic Seitei Iai through shoden to okuden, to be honest, although the timing has certainly changed. Holding your opponents' attention via feints (i.e., Shihoto Sono Ichi/Ni), ensuring the poor sucker is well & truly deceased (a la Tsukikomi), or addressing multiple attackers (So Makuri) are all done with varying levels of zanshin, which translates to me as including differences in noto.

Is that what you were asking, Roar? :rolleyes:

weeell, you know, with such a nice bunch of knowledgable fellas, the answers are often richer than the questions, and the sidetracks more interesting than the main track. ;)
Doing msr, it is always interesting to know about similarities and differences both in mindset and technicalities regarding other styles. I even got two very nice clips from a board member of the late sugino sensei and otake sensei, doing the same kata. thx. :)

[Chidokan]

In answer to Jezahs question, Oe senseis sword was 2.35 as he thinks... a fairly regular length. To equate that to someone who is say 6' it would work out to be a 2.45/2.5, as he was quite tall for japanese at the time. I believe the sword is still around,(soke has it last time I heard) along with some of his deshi's swords... Iwata sensei has Mori Shigeki's sword. Again not a particularly big sword, but at that time you have the military 'recommending' a standard size. One of these days I'll have to get some photos of this one... I assume other people who were direct students would have their teachers swords, lets face it - you aint going to throw them in the bin!
The reason for short swords is that you can draw them quicker, and if the tsuba is smaller you can get a better 'approach angle' for the hand, which is also quicker. I was advised that if a Tosa swordsman needed to attack anyone to try out his technique/whatever, he should always go for someone with a big tsuba and a long sword, as they took it as an indication that the guy didnt really understand iai! :D

[Karasu Maru]

This is a movie of the unique sakate-noto.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.ne.jp/image/ugetusashi1-2.avi

The next picture is not sakate-noto, but I post url incidentally.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.ne.jp/image/ugetuseoi1-2.avi

Regards,

[ulvulv]

The universe expands indefinitely.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Great day in the morning!! Which ryuha is it that uses sakate-noto?? That's impressive, to say the least, but I'd be afraid that I would cut off my head if something distracted me!

And let me guess that there are no kata from seiza or tatehiza in that ryuha, either....

[gmanry]

Our dojo is transitioning from Hokiyama Ha to Yamauchi Ha MJER, so there is some change occuring. It has been interesting, and has allowed for a lot of in depth teaching about things that may have been "taken for granted" before the change.

I am currently getting prepared to transition to a 29.5 (~2-4-7) inch shinken for my own practice. Up one-half inch from what I am currently used to in practice (which is a saya bokuto).

Our noto is vertical with the saya tilting rearward to the floor (koiguchi upwards), keeping tsuka towards the opponent's eyes. Although noto does not specifically have to be straight out towards the teki at first, it must come to this position after the kisaki drops in the koiguchi, unless the kata calls for something that is specific, such as the very vertical noto in Ryozume with tsuka to the ceiling. This noto has what I feel is a medium amount of saya sabaki and can be pretty low on that continuum at times. This is in comparison to what I have seen in MSR and other demonstrations of iai.

We do have a difference in the shoden, chuden, and okuden levels of noto. For example, the mune is rested at different spots on the koiguchi and the katana is returned to the saya at different rates of speed.

I have not seen a tremendous amount of difference so far in how we do iai in Yamauchi ha, as we all use more standard length shinken. However, our sensei has shown us why Sekiguchi sensei performs his kata the way that he does. Given the sword he uses, it all seems to make sense. Whether or not using such a large sword makes sense; that is not for me to say.

Someone mentioned the issue of the Tosa. I have been told that Seikiguchi sensei does hold this as being very important in our school, and it does explain a lot of what makes our line seem different.

Also, on the matter of large versus small swords, it is my understanding that the origin of MJER, "Hayashizaki" Ryu, which then later became Muso Eishin Ryu, was not conceived of with an Edo style katana. The waza were formulated with swords in tachi mount, and those swords were typically larger than those of the Tokugawa shogunate, which, as most people know, were severely standardized. So, tradition only seems to extend so far back, and should really be called "custom", imo.

Another difference in the Yamauchi ha is the use of vertical slashing in the chuden tatehiza no bu vs. the horizontal in other schools. The reason for this, as has been related to me, is tactically relevant and is not just an affectation.

Lastly, Seikiguchi sensei specifically uses the kanji for iaijutsu vs. iaido in the name of the school. Make of that what you will.

[Ian Drew]

I believe the Noto performed by TSKSR(reverse noto) is used as a companion sword is presumed to be in the obi and would get in the way of the standard noto used in MJER where no companion sword is used.

[ulvulv]

I believe the Noto performed by TSKSR(reverse noto) is used as a companion sword is presumed to be in the obi and would get in the way of the standard noto used in MJER where no companion sword is used.

When doing their standard set of 12 iaijutsukata, tsksr do not use a companionsword either, as far as I have seen. The setup of the "practise costume" has been fairly similar to the standard of most iaido-people.

I have tried msr noto with a second sword in the obi, and there is really no problem doing msr noto and nukitsuke if the second sword is worn correctly. I guess that is actually the same with mjer.

[kongoshin]

When doing their standard set of 12 iaijutsukata, tsksr do not use a companionsword either, as far as I have seen. The setup of the "practise costume" has been fairly similar to the standard of most iaido-people.

Actually, it is 11 ;)
I've never seen it done with another sword eitherm bu it's an interesting theory that I'll ask my sensei about.



I have tried msr noto with a second sword in the obi, and there is really no problem doing msr noto and nukitsuke if the second sword is worn correctly. I guess that is actually the same with mjer.

Do you know of any school that does iai with a second sword present?

[Steve Delaney]

This is a movie of the unique sakate-noto.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.ne.jp/image/ugetusashi1-2.avi

The next picture is not sakate-noto, but I post url incidentally.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.ne.jp/image/ugetuseoi1-2.avi

Regards,

Reminds me of Jigo Tenshin-ryu in Fukuoka. They do that spin type movement before sakate osame.


And let me guess that there are no kata from seiza or tatehiza in that ryuha, either....

If it is Jigo Tenshin-ryu, they do iai from seiza as well as tachi-ai, they just don't spin the blade.

[gmanry]

Do you know of any school that does iai with a second sword present?

I have been told that in the Hokiyama ha, the wearing of a wakizashi during iai was practiced by some at advanced levels. I don't know if this is peculiar to only certain teachers.

The wearing of a second sword would not, from my point of view, hamper nukitsuke or noto, but perhaps some small adjustments would have to be made. If the Wakizashi is worn flush to the front of the body, then the katana may still lie in its normal position, more or less.

[rottunpunk]

niten ichi ryu

though i dont know much about it im afraid
:p

[Steve Delaney]

After reading a little bit of the website, the University student who performed for those clips, goes on to say in one of the sections that he is just studied the techniques from the Jigo Tenshin-ryu hombu webpage. These guys are just a university iai study group.

Here's the Jigo Tenshin-ryu homepage. http://www.jigoutenshin.jp/

[Charles Mahan]

Steve,

You're saying that the videos in this quote are Jigo Tenshin Ryu not TSKSR?


Originally Posted by Karasu Maru
This is a movie of the unique sakate-noto.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.n...etusashi1-2.avi

The next picture is not sakate-noto, but I post url incidentally.
http://misty-rainandmoon.bg.cat-v.n...getuseoi1-2.avi

[renfield_kuroda]

Do you know of any school that does iai with a second sword present?
Mugairyu, Meishi-ha. A second is required for all advanced students.
As Gosoke tells us: "We do a samurai art; only chimpira wear one sword."

Regards,
r e n

[Maro]

Extremely long swords as well.

Have those Vids been verified?

[Steve Delaney]

Steve,

You're saying that the videos in this quote are Jigo Tenshin Ryu not TSKSR?

Yes, Charles. They are Jigo Tenshin-ryu techniques. The author of the webpage that Karasu Maru posted, actually states this in one of his blogs.

Nothing to do with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu.

Mind you, other ryuha do use sakate osame, not just TSKSR. Tatsumi-ryu, Araki-ryu, Takenouchi-ryu, Jigo Tenshin-ryu (as you saw above), Sosuishi-ryu, Sekiguchi-ryu (Higo-ryu), Sekiguchi Shinshin-ryu, Enshin-ryu and Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu all do sakate osame. They all have different ways of finishing; Some do chiburi, some do chinugui and some just resheathe the blade after cutting. It really all depends on the teachings and tradition of each ryuha.

BTW, this isn't all of the ryuha that do sakate osame, just a list of the better known ryuha.

[George Kohler]

Steve,

I saw the Jigo Tenshin-ryu website and saw a few of their videos. Are they related to TSKSR? Some of their techniques looked similar so just wondering.

[Charles Mahan]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Maro]

So it's legitimate?

Interesting techniques with the long swords. They must be 2.6ish (if he is short) with a 12-14" Tsuka.

[Steve Delaney]

Steve,

I saw the Jigo Tenshin-ryu website and saw a few of their videos. Are they related to TSKSR? Some of their techniques looked similar so just wondering.

George,

Jigo Tenshin-ryu is a koryu that has split into two factions, one faction that does iai and one that does jujutsu. It's origins are in Yoshin-ryu, Kasahara-ryu, Ryoi Shinto-ryu and Shinkage-ryu. Ise Jitoku Tenshin-ryu (AKA: Jigo Tenshin-ryu) was one of the Otome-ryu for the Kuroda-han.


So it's legitimate?

Interesting techniques with the long swords. They must be 2.6ish (if he is short) with a 12-14" Tsuka.

The techniques shown are legitimate, but the kid in the movie clips isn't. He has just taken clips from the ryuha's official website and copied them.

[Maro]

I see. Very long swords indeed.

Who is the Kid? - Samurai wannabe?

[Steve Delaney]

I see. Very long swords indeed.

Who is the Kid? - Samurai wannabe?

No, he appears to be just a member of an iaido study group who is researching other ryuha's methods for what looks like a bit of variety. On the blog, some other posters lambast him for having bad hasuji and kahanshin.

[Karasu Maru]

Recently, the dojo of Nakamura ryu was established near my house.
This is a movie of the sensei of the dojo.
http://bujin.jp/takeuchi/2.htm

[socho]

You are very fortunate. Takeuchi-sensei is an excellent swordsman. I know him from my brief time training in Japan. Had a chance to see him again in November. Please wish him well from me.
Respectfully,

Dave

[nicojo]

Hey I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around. Interesting info.

Ren wrote:
As Gosoke tells us: "We do a samurai art; only chimpira wear one sword." I'm not sure what "chimpira" means; will you define it please?

[Steve Delaney]

Hey I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around. Interesting info.

Ren wrote: I'm not sure what "chimpira" means; will you define it please?

Chinpira/Chimpira means street punk or thug.

[nicojo]

Thanks Steve. I had figured as much from some old threads here, but I was a little surprised to see it used in this context.