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Usagi
30th November 2000, 00:03
I work with body building and weight lifting as well as martial arts.

One thing has always puzzled me:

Did the bushi used to do some kind of exercise to build up their strengh?

I don't mean the usual taiso that we see today, which has more to do with warm up and stretching.

I had read that many used to chop wood, but i would like to know if they used any formalized method to work the muscles needed for wielding their weapons more easily.

(in the same fashion as the Okinawan GoJuRyu or like the methods used by sumo tori)

Any reference will be welcome!

Thank you in advance!

Renato Usagi

Kevin73
30th November 2000, 04:27
I picked up a book from Wing Lam about shaolin training. And went through the entire book and after reading the exercises and practising them wrote down what they would equal today. Most of them have corresponding things to weight lifting such as deadlift, lateral raises, front delt raises, bench press, etc. The other exercises were iron body things to toughen the body. There were also a large number of plyometric exercises in there.

I have also looked into iron body training and it consists of a lot of dynamic tension exercises (Sanchin in Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, etc.) and pushups
I think that alot of early martial artists from reading this book did do alot of physical exercise to strengthen their body.

So to answer the question, I think that the old martial artists did use alot of supplemental training to increase their strength for martial arts.

Soulend
30th November 2000, 09:12
Good question, although I have not seen any reference to strength training among the Samurai. It may well have existed, although one must keep a few things in mind. Dedication to practice was often so intense as to be almost unimaginable in today's world. So, the bushi for the most part were incredibly skilled in their chosen arts without any external training. Also, Japan was in almost a constant state of war for nearly 400 years, so the endless campaigns of the bushi kept him in pretty good shape, or killed him.

I am reminded of prehistoric man and the Native Americans, who, due to their lifestyle and constant fight for survival had no need of exercise. Modern man has it pretty easy. When we are hungry we can buy food neatly wrapped in cellophane or have it delivered, prepared and cooked, to our door. When we are thirsty or cold we can turn little knobs. Exercise is essentially an attempt to tax our bodies in the way that our ancestors had to do day to day. We lift weights, they lifted carcasses and firewood. We jog, they pursued game and enemies, or fled from predators and enemies. There were probably no bushi that could compete in Mr. Olympia, but I think they were on average in pretty good shape anyway. Armor is heavy..

Joseph Svinth
30th November 2000, 09:44
Look at sumo, and you'll get a pretty good idea of Japanese bodybuilding ideas. Swimming and running were also popular.

As for diligence in training, it would have depended on the individual. High-ranking people would have had servants do physical labor for them and so might have been as unfit as anyone today. Soldiers were often peasant conscripts recruited for the campaign. And some folks were more interested in politics or philosophy than swordsmanship...

Soulend
1st December 2000, 17:23
True. The average noble probably had little in the way of physical exertion. All the same, the peasants from which the ashigaru came were probably pretty hardy folk.

The sumo comment is interesting, and alludes to something I didn't think of at the time. That the Japanese tend to concentrate on strength through the hips and legs, while in the West we tend to think more of muscular arms and a broad chest, V-shaped torso. It seems if you take the "V" shape of the western body builder and turn it upside-down, you have the Japanese ideal. Low center of gravity, sturdy foundation, strong hara.

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2000, 18:13
On the other hand, David, if you look at the forearms and wrists of Japanese karateka, jujutsuka and kenjutsuka, they look like the thick end of a baseball bat. Solid.

I suspect that a lot of the strength of samurai came from direct training in their various combat disciplines. Wielding heavy weaponry, engaging in practice, and running around in heavy armor would develop the necessary strength and stamina. Samurai bootcamp, anyone?

Cady

Michael Becker
1st December 2000, 19:43
Certainly within the Chinese martial arts, weapons training is seen as a valuable means of building power.

The spear and staff are particularly useful for such training.

Constant repetition of the various kata contained within the koryu would no doubt be physically taxing. Two person weapons kata ( weilding bokken, spears,etc. ) , iaijutsu ( particularly from a kneeling position ) and empty handed techniques would require some hard work.

There is also solo work with heavy bokken which I believe some practitioners use.

It also has to be remembered that the samurai were professional warriors, so they would have been limited by time constraints and also by that fact they could expect to be travelling to campaigns. There wasnt the opportunity to carry anything other than the essentials, unless you were a rich lord. No portable gyms a la Hollywood!

Regarding 'iron body' techniques, there is a lot more to this study than dynamic tension and push ups.

As an 'inside the door' student of a traditional Chinese martial art I have studied exercises that develope the bodies ability to take punishment.

It is a practice that should NEVER be undertaken without the guidance of a compitent teacher. Side effects can be serious if the exercises are done incorrectly.

The Shaolin based methods in particular, which emphasise the use of tension combined with certain breathing practices can be dangerous to health. Improper practice can lead to death!

There is NO book in print that I know of that offers sufficient detailed instruction.

You have to remember that within the Chinese martial arts circles, such instruction is often only given after a sum of several THOUSAND dollars has been paid.

Also take into account the oaths that a student makes when they are accepted as a disciple and you have to realise that you wont find a complete book on the real iron shirt methods in print.

There are bits and pieces here and there, but as the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Yamantaka
1st December 2000, 19:45
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
On the other hand, David, if you look at the forearms and wrists of Japanese karateka, jujutsuka and kenjutsuka, they look like the thick end of a baseball bat. Solid.
I suspect that a lot of the strength of samurai came from direct training in their various combat disciplines. Wielding heavy weaponry, engaging in practice, and running around in heavy armor would develop the necessary strength and stamina. Samurai bootcamp, anyone?
Cady

YAMANTAKA : Hail, Noble Lady of the Bat Cave! Tell Dan to stand by for action! The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu tapes with Rizuke Ohtake Sensei and Donn Draeger Sensei, among others, is being sent to you next monday. Enjoy it!
Best regards to you
Yamantaka/Ubaldo(The Ancient One)
P.S.By the way, I agree with you at least in what concerns Pre-Edo Samurai. Perhaps things were a little bit different in Edo Period (no wars, you know...)

Cady Goldfield
1st December 2000, 23:53
Originally posted by YAMANTAKA
YAMANTAKA : Hail, Noble Lady of the Bat Cave! Tell Dan to stand by for action! The Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu tapes with Rizuke Ohtake Sensei and Donn Draeger Sensei, among others, is being sent to you next monday. Enjoy it!
Best regards to you
Yamantaka/Ubaldo(The Ancient One)
P.S.By the way, I agree with you at least in what concerns Pre-Edo Samurai. Perhaps things were a little bit different in Edo Period (no wars, you know...) [/B]

WooHOOOO!!!!! You're the best, Ubaldo! I was telling Renato just last week that I envied him for his possession of those TSKSR tapes! Dan has threatened us with a Bujutsu Videothon this winter, in which he will hold us hostage while we are forced to watch hundreds of hours worth of old martial arts videos. I suppose it's better than having to see his family Christmas video albums from the past 10 years, though. :laugh:
If you want to see a good workout, watch classical kenjutsuka "have at it." Just the 2-man kata alone would get flabby Edo-period samurai into fighting shape.

Cady
P.S. I doubt the Samurai of Olde had much time for actual physical fitness training. I suspect that they had to spend too much time on actual combat training, plus all of that time-consuming court etiquette training so the daimyo wouldn't have to have their heads lopped off for bad manners.
P.P.S. Dan liked the autographed copy of your book.


[Edited by Cady Goldfield on 12-01-2000 at 06:02 PM]

Yamantaka
2nd December 2000, 20:05
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
[B]Dan has threatened us with a Bujutsu Videothon this winter, in which he will hold us hostage while we are forced to watch hundreds of hours worth of old martial arts videos. I suppose it's better than having to see his family Christmas video albums from the past 10 years, though. :laugh:

YAMANTAKA : Well, if you want to get it before Christmas, you better give me your address for me to send it. And tell Dan to watch out for the differences between Sugino Sensei and Ohtake Sensei ways of doing techniques. Fascinating!
Best regards and good keiko
Ubaldo.

Kevin73
3rd December 2000, 18:30
I agree that there is more to "Iron body/shirt" than what I talked about. The first question originated about how they trained for strength and that was what I focused on. And for that reason I did not mention any of the herbal ointments or body toughening that is associated with iron shirt, or chi flow breathing, etc.

I study a style that emphasizes "Sanchin", and I have seen many others teach this aspect that would be very dangerous to the practioner as well.

Mr. Becker, I would be interested in talking with you in private about Iron Body as that greatly interests me. If you would like to email me to talk about it let me know and I will give you my email address.

Michael Becker
3rd December 2000, 19:20
Hello Mr Hirakis

The main reason I posted the warning was to ensure that people were aware that such training should NEVER be attempted without expert PERSONAL instruction.

Not by video or book, but one to one.

Such training cannot be generalised about and should not be.

You should also make sure that your teacher demonstrates his ability first before he has you attempt any demonstration of internal strength. It has occured that students have been injured after being poorly instructed by frauds.

Even then, I would make sure that any instructor has an exellent lineage before accepting instruction.

My email information is in my personal profile.

I must say upfront that I cannot and will not talk in detail about my own instruction as I am not a liberty to do so.

That said, I will happily participate in a general discussion.