Different Execution of Same Techniques

[kirgan]

Gassho,

I recently passed my 3rd Kyu exam under Sensei Messersmith at the FIU branch (Florida International University) in Miami, Florida.

One of the things I tried to do to learn quicker and prepare for the exam was to create my own training book that I could use as a reference at home and with other practice sessions with other kenshi. I did this by going to many other branches web sites. I found several that listed the requirements for 3rd Kyu. Some had descriptions of each technique and some even had diagrams, pictures, animations and or videos. I created my own training book, from what I found, since official books & especially videos/dvds seem hard to come by.

One of the things I found strange was that there does not seem to be any standard for the curriculum, the belt colors, and even in some cases how the techniques were supposed to be executed.

For instance some branches had 3rd Kyu technique requirements listed that were not on the requirement document that Sensei Messersmith gave me. Others matched it exactly. The differences in the techniques surprised me even more. For instance, I learned Uwa uke geri by blocking and countering with jun geri (This is the way Sensei Messersmith showed us & expected us to do it this way on the exam). However on some braches’ websites, it said you need to step left & block and the kick should be gyaku geri and seemed to expect you to execute it that way when the technique was called on the exam. I even had some of the other black belts in class who originally trained elsewhere give me some of their old handouts, which described the technique with gyaku geri, instead of jun geri. I found similar discrepancies with other techniques between the branches.

Why all the differences from branch to branch? As a lower level kenshi trying to learn, I found those differences to be confusing. I understand that in a real situation it really doesn't matter if you use jun geri or gyaku geri, but for an exam, I would think we would all be following a standard for technique execution & be required to study the same curriculum for each test - considering we are all learning the same art.

Kesshu,

--Mike

[kirgan]

Gassho,

I just read the equality thread. It seems to discuss some of my questions about belt differences and grading. That leaves only one question left. Everyone will probably respond the same - there is no standard and its up to each branch, but I'll look forward to your feedback.

I plan on visting Hawaii next June. While there I was going to see if there was a nearby branch I could visit. I only hope I will be executing the techniques the way their Sensei expects - considering all the differences I have stumbled onto, which I mentioned previously.

Kesshu,

--Mike

[Gary Dolce]

Mike,

There really is a standard with respect to doing techniques - that standard includes all of what you described. If you do things the way Messersmith Sensei tells you, you will be fine when you visit other Branches.

What you are describing is a common response among new kenshi, epsecially after attendance at their first seminar where they are exposed to other teachers. However, it is not as serious a problem as it may seem, which may be hard to understand if you are just looking at pictures. Techniques like uwa uke geri actually have multiple versions. You can shift the weight back while blocking with the front arm and kicking jun geri or shift the weight forward while blocking with the back arm and using gyaku geri. Both versions are demonstrated on the recent DVDs produced by Hombu. At some point you should learn both versions, but it is up to your teacher to decide when to introduce those variations. In my branch, we focus first on the jun geri version and that is what I would normally expect to see on an exam. But if someone did the other version it wouldn't be wrong as both are examples of uwa uke geri. If you practice both versions against different attacks (jun and gyaku zuki or shuto uchi from tai or hiraki gamae) you will find that each version has advantages and disadvantages depending on the attack, hence they are both worth practicing. There are similar useful variations on uchi uke zuki and just about every other technique you will learn.

The same idea applies to juho - perhaps even more so. The usual response after attending a first seminar is "the sensei at the seminar did gyaku gote differently". Most of the time, it is just a matter of a different emphasis. We may all be teaching gyaku gote but some of us might use slightly different footwork, or break the balance in a different direction, or some other variation. The small variations are countless, but the technique is still gyaku gote and the underlying principles are still the same. Different people will constantly be showing you slightly different variations, and some will even "correct" the version you have learned. Just keep an open mind and you will be fine.

As for the other part of your question, there is a standard curriculum that has been put out by WSKO. Some national federations have chosen to modify the curriculum somewhat, for example by creating additional kyu levels. But I think when you attend a WSKO Study Session or some other training camp you will find that the similarities in what we are doing are much greater than the differences. There will almost certainly be a WSKO study session and at least a couple of training camps next year - if you get the chance you should definitely attend one.

Finally, you should also ask Messersmith Sensei these questions. I am sure that he could give you a much more complete answer in person. Most important, you should do the version he expects when you are taking an exam.

[Tripitaka of AA]

That's a model answer from Gary. Nothing to add.

But just to show that you're not alone, I can confirm that this is a very common occurrence. As Gary says, it usually hits the first time you go to a seminar or somewhere ese to train. There are variations, but these are often completely normal and acceptable. The difficulty is that, from a position of student, you have been conditioned to "copy" (shu, ha, ri), and it is difficult to deliberately do something "wrong". Here is where you need to have a little faith, that the new faces are showing you something "different", but not "wrong". Likewise, if they are in a senior position, they really ought to know whether your technique is a variation or "wrong", so any correction should be taken at face value. If you are taught something badly, or in an incorrect way, then your form will be seen and this will help to highlight the instructor's deficiency so that his instructor can correct it. If you refuse to do the new way, then you're not helping anyone, not even yourself... in a way.

This can actually be one of the best parts of the learning experience, although it is preferable to wait until you've really got to grips with the basics before clouding your mind with the variations. Best thing to do is wait for a quiet moment with your own Sensei to ask about anything that has been troubling you. This doesn't mean hassling him over every little thing in a way that could appear rude... you should keep some of the learning for your own head (using eyes without mouth :) ).

[David Dunn]

As Gary says, the two versions of uwa uke geri that you describe are both standard form. One is omote uwa uke geri (you are on the front side of your opponent). The other is ura uwa uke geri (you are on the rear side of your opponent). Some people prefer the basic uwa uke geri to be from hiraki gamae, while others prefer tai gamae - they are also legitimate variations. Later on you'll find that there may be two or three standard ways to do throwing techniques.

Regarding the syllabus being different - that's all changing next year when there will be a worldwide standard. Until now some countries have ranks prior to third kyu, so had to somehow divide the third kyu syllabus further. I think from nikyu onwards everything is the same wherever you are.

[luar]

When I took my Iky Kyu test, I was completly confused with what was the proper opening stance for the Juho techniques listed in the embu (Sode Maki, Sode Dori, Ude Make, etc.). On the DVD the stances were sometimes clear that it should Gyaku Gedan for some techniques but there were some where it was very ambiguous. That is I noticed that the defenders feet were together in parallel rather than there being a lead or back footing. Even the overhead shots were not clear. Looking further I turned my copy of Juho II and notice a total different but relaxed stance. Forget about relying on Kenseikai's animated web page. Of course I asked Sensei and he was aware of these issues and told me for the time being it did not matter.

Incidently, why is it on the DVD during the Ikyu Embu only one of the defenders completes Chidori Gaeshi with Sokuto geri to the back leg and the other skips this part all together?

One point that I am not sure is being made clearly on this topic is that one of the ways to properly learn Shorinji Kempo is learn the techniques in their proper order and to understand that there is a reason for this sequence. This can actualy be extended to mean more advance versions of techniques that come later on.

[luar]

Mike,


The same idea applies to juho - perhaps even more so. The usual response after attending a first seminar is "the sensei at the seminar did gyaku gote differently". Most of the time, it is just a matter of a different emphasis. We may all be teaching gyaku gote but some of us might use slightly different footwork, or break the balance in a different direction, or some other variation. The small variations are countless, but the technique is still gyaku gote and the underlying principles are still the same. Different people will constantly be showing you slightly different variations, and some will even "correct" the version you have learned. Just keep an open mind and you will be fine.


You mean like "Look for the manji" :) . Gary I have to say that simple lesson is still with me today.

Edited on request by luar
/Anders

[Gary Dolce]

When I took my Iky Kyu test, I was completly confused with what was the proper opening stance for the Juho techniques listed in the embu (Sode Maki, Sode Dori, Ude Make, etc.). On the DVD the stances were sometimes clear that it should Gyaku Gedan for some techniques but there were some where it was very ambiguous. That is I noticed that the defenders feet were together in parallel rather than there being a lead or back footing. Even the overhead shots were not clear. Looking further I turned my copy of Juho II and notice a total different but relaxed stance. Forget about relying on Kenseikai's animated web page. Of course I asked Sensei and he was aware of these issues and told me for the time being it did not matter.

Incidently, why is it on the DVD during the Ikyu Embu only one of the defenders completes Chidori Gaeshi with Sokuto geri to the back leg and the other skips this part all together?



Hi Raul,

There does seem to be some ambiguity with respect to initial stance for a number of juho techniques. I agree with Ohashi Sensei - I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Regarding chidori gasehi, kari ashi (sokuto geri to the back of the leg) is essentially renhanko. You could also do other renhanko after chidori gaeshi, which may have been the point of the ikkyu embu demo.

As with everything, I think it is important not assume that everything has to be done exactly as in the video. It is a training aid, not a substitute for a real teacher. One thing I find very curious about the video is that tsubame gaeshi is shown with the same renhanko everytime, which migh lead someone to believe that it was part of tsubame gaeshi. But they don't do this with any other technique in the video series.

Gary

[luar]

As with everything, I think it is important not assume that everything has to be done exactly as in the video. It is a training aid, not a substitute for a real teacher. One thing I find very curious about the video is that tsubame gaeshi is shown with the same renhanko everytime, which migh lead someone to believe that it was part of tsubame gaeshi. But they don't do this with any other technique in the video series.

Gary

Understood but to add to the confusion I believe when you look at the examination criteria in the Cirriculum book, Ren Han Ko is not mentioned for Chidori Gaeshi and so thus I assumed that the sokuto geri is part of the technique and part of the grading. When I look at the other videos and books, you always see this technique with the sokuto geri. For me Ren Han Ko would come after this. Regardless, its good not to lock oneself into doing things one way.

[Ewok]

Renhanko was something that was always a hot topic before gradings, "Hey, does this have Renhanko?" being the main question. I think in the end we decided that everything could end with Renhanko if it felt natural :p (I remember going backwards and forwards in a never ending loop of renhanko trying to get the right reactions happening, great fun).

Your branchmaster will have either a kamokuhyo or an english equivelent that he can copy or loan to you with what to expect for a grading - see if you can get your hands on it sometime.

[kirgan]

Gassho,

I do understand there are multiple variations & I see the value of learning them all. My main confusion seemed to come from trying to know which variation should be performed on a test. For instance, at my branch we have Messersmith Sensei (6th Dan) another Sensei who is 4th Dan, a 2nd Dan & a 1st Dan. At any given time, I may be taught by any of them. I have found that very valuable. Each one might show me a different variation or explain/demonstrate something in a way that may make the light go off in my head a little quicker on some technique I was having trouble with. So, having the differences in teaching and variation has really helped me learn better.

But then when I take the test and say out of working with all of them, I have learned 3 different variations, but I don't remember exactly which one of those variations our branch master showed me and expected me to performed on the test. So, I thought if there was a standard on not only which techniques should be on each exam, but which variation(s) you must be perform on each test, it would be less confusing.

Anyway, I won't worry too much about it. I'll ask occasionally, watch & try to pick up on which is the more appropriate version to perform on the test. And then when it comes time, I will just execute the variation I think he may want to see and if it isn't the version he was expecting, I'm sure he will let me know at that time and I will certainly learn from that too.

I do know I can ask Messersmith Sensei questions to find out which variation he wants to see. I do ask him & he answers all of my questions. He is a very good Sensei. But, like was said earlier in this thread, I don't want to seem annoying by asking too many questions. And I would think it would be annoying if I asked for every technique I have learned, which variation he wants me to perform on the test. If there was a standard for which variations were expected on every test, then I wouldn't have to ask. I would just know & so would every other Kenshi around the world.


Thanks again for all your feedback.


--Mike

[luar]

In my experience as you start to advance in rank you will be encouraged to learn many variations for a single technique. But at your current level, its all about the basics and developing a foundation.

Feel free to pester your sensei with these questions. What else you think he's there for?

BTW, where are you guys in Miami? I visit there often and get bored easily.

[kirgan]

Gassho,

We are a branch located a local University in Miami. It is called FIU - Florida International University. Messersmith Sensei is a professor of asian studies at this University. The branch is an official student/employee club. As an official FIU club, we are allowed to reserve fitness rooms to practice in, which are located at what is called the student recreation center on campus. We do have several members who are not students and who don't work at FIU. They have to join FIU's alumni ($50) and the rec center in order to be allowed in the facility where we practice on a regular basis. These are not our rules, but FIU's rules.

Guests can get inside the rec center without joining the Alumni or the rec center at a cost of $10 dollars per day as long as they are with a current member. The payment goes directly to the rec center and NOT our branch.

FIU is located SW of downtime Miami. If you are familar with the Florida Turnpike, it is exit 25 and then one block east on sw 8th st. The main campus entrance will be on the right. Once on campus, you will have to drive around to the back side of campus. I can give you more directions to get to the right building, but I'll wait until I know you are coming.

When you know when you plan on visiting, please e-mail me & I will put you in touch with Messersmith Sensei, so you can out of courtesy let him know you our coming & I will give you more detailed directions at that time.

--Mike

[JL.]

Gassho!

Hello Mike-san and welcome to e-Budo! :)
For some reason no one else has told You so I will: on here You have to sign every post with Your full name. That's the rules.

Just to add my twopence on the topic...
Different versions may work differently on different people, another very good reason to learn more than one. Also, if visiting another Dojo, it is, IMHO, very important to do what one's being taught there, instead of saying "this is wrong, MY Sensei teaches it a different way" which seems to be happening from time to time. The topic of different people teaching the same technique differently (not necessarily other versions) is even in one of the written exams, for Nikyu, I think.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Anders Pettersson]

Incidently, why is it on the DVD during the Ikyu Embu only one of the defenders completes Chidori Gaeshi with Sokuto geri to the back leg and the other skips this part all together?

In the DVD Shimura-sensei attacks with gyaku zuki and because of that it is difficult for Nagayasu-sensei to do kari ashi.
When they change attacker Nagayasu-sensei attack with sashi kae jun zuki, which makes it easy for Shimura-sensei to do kari ashi (or rather the type of kari ashi called sokuto gari).

Why do they then do it differently?
Because in the kamokuhyo it says for kumi embu for ikkyu it is "Chidori gaeshi renhanko", they show two different examples of renhanko, one do a kick and the other do kari ashi.
In Kyohan the explanation for Chidori gaeshi actually states gyaku zuki as attack and mentions that you could do kari ashi or kick to sanmai.

The most popular version is probably to do chidori gaeshi with jun zuki as attack and follow up with kari ashi (sokuto gari) as the kamoku has written chidori gaeshi, kari ashi, renhanko. But the kari ashi is not part of the actual hokei.

I also often teach my students that they could do other type of kari ashi as well. If the opponent gets his weight to the back leg, rather than staying with the weight on the forward after his zuki (i.e. you are late in counter attack), one could grab his dogi at the shoulder and do kyakuto gari.

Also note that it is not sokuto geri, that we do after chidori gaeshi, but one of the five types of kari ashi that we have in Shorinjikempo. The one that is usually used in the case of chidori gaeshi is sokuto gari, the others are called sokutei gari, nai sokuto gari, kyakuto gari and ushiro kakato gari.

/Anders

Edit: Corrected a mistake on one of the technique names.

[Casey Raiford]

Gassho,

I recently passed my 3rd Kyu exam under Sensei Messersmith at the FIU branch (Florida International University) in Miami, Florida.

One of the things I tried to do to learn quicker and prepare for the exam was to create my own training book that I could use as a reference at home and with other practice sessions with other kenshi. I did this by going to many other branches web sites. I found several that listed the requirements for 3rd Kyu. Some had descriptions of each technique and some even had diagrams, pictures, animations and or videos. I created my own training book, from what I found, since official books & especially videos/dvds seem hard to come by.

One of the things I found strange was that there does not seem to be any standard for the curriculum, the belt colors, and even in some cases how the techniques were supposed to be executed.

For instance some branches had 3rd Kyu technique requirements listed that were not on the requirement document that Sensei Messersmith gave me. Others matched it exactly. The differences in the techniques surprised me even more. For instance, I learned Uwa uke geri by blocking and countering with jun geri (This is the way Sensei Messersmith showed us & expected us to do it this way on the exam). However on some braches’ websites, it said you need to step left & block and the kick should be gyaku geri and seemed to expect you to execute it that way when the technique was called on the exam. I even had some of the other black belts in class who originally trained elsewhere give me some of their old handouts, which described the technique with gyaku geri, instead of jun geri. I found similar discrepancies with other techniques between the branches.

Why all the differences from branch to branch? As a lower level kenshi trying to learn, I found those differences to be confusing. I understand that in a real situation it really doesn't matter if you use jun geri or gyaku geri, but for an exam, I would think we would all be following a standard for technique execution & be required to study the same curriculum for each test - considering we are all learning the same art.

Kesshu,

--Mike


Gassho Mike;

I really don't have anything constructive to add, I just thought I'd share that I'm in the exact same boat. I just passed my sankyu grading at my old branch in Monterey. I began studying SK when the branch opened there this year. The initial attendees boiled down to about five of us who stayed on. Our Branch Master, Kazuki Arita sensei, is a great person and a fantastic instructor. Very patient with uncoordinated louts such as myself.

Being the only place I ever studied, that was the only training experience I had. Picture one sixth dan, waaay up on a mountain, and five brand new guys waaaay down at the bottom. To keep this short, I transferred to the DC area and joined a new branch that I'm very happy with. One of the things that took me time to acclimate to is that here at the World Bank branch, there is a fourth dan, a third dan, a couple of shodan, myself and a another brown belt (not sure which one) and some very new beginners. As I said, I'm very happy at the branch, and am fortunate to train with some very good instructors and other kenshi.

Every time we train, we of course do something very basic, juje nuki, gyaku gote or what have you. Each and everyone of those guys has a different execution, sometimes very different.

It always humbles me to see and experience the many subtle layers there are and how all the body mechanics can work to produce something that is superficially the same yet profoundly different.

In short, I feel ya. I even have a big geeky Shorinji Kempo three ring binder I lug around as well.

kesshu;
Case

[Gary Dolce]

Thank you Anders for a very thorough and informative reply!


In the DVD Shimura-sensei attacks with gyaku zuki and because of that it is difficult for Nagayasu-sensei to do kari ashi.
When they change attacker Nagayasu-sensei attack with sashi kae jun zuki, which makes it easy for Shimura-sensei to do kari ashi (or rather the type of kari ashi called sokuto gari).



At a training camp a long time ago, I saw a demonstration of sokuto gari after chidori gaeshi when the attack was gyaku zuki. In this case, the attacker's front leg knee was kicked from the inside of the leg toward the outside. The knee isn't designed to move in that direction, especially with weight on it, and I think we all cringed as the attacker went down. The victim had a bit of a limp the rest of the day- definitely a "don't do this at home" lesson!

[kirgan]

Gassho Casey, It is nice to know there are others out there having some of the same confusion I am. At least we both still managed to get through our tests it seems.

Thanks again,

--Mike

[Ade]

Gassho

I've been watching this one with interest.

What I would say is that this happens EVERY time someone trains "away" from their home club.

The techniques are merely vehicles to transmit the principles behind the techniques which are the diamonds.

I was at hombu in 2002 and Kawachima Sensei showed me that there are less than 10 shapes that you can make with the wrist/arm which cause pain, I've got them drawn and written down.

All 400 odd wrist manipulations come down to these principles, it was pure undiluted genius, the clarity has always remained with me, see the shapes, not the window dressing of how you get there.

Don't get confused with different teachers, see the shapes they all create.

Kesshu

Adrian.

PS If you go to hombu and ask I'm sure he'll show you too!

[Steve Williams]

Gassho

I've been watching this one with interest.

What I would say is that this happens EVERY time someone trains "away" from their home club.

The techniques are merely vehicles to transmit the principles behind the techniques which are the diamonds.

I was at hombu in 2002 and Kawachima Sensei showed me that there are less than 10 shapes that you can make with the wrist/arm which cause pain, I've got them drawn and written down.

All 400 odd wrist manipulations come down to these principles, it was pure undiluted genius, the clarity has always remained with me, see the shapes, not the window dressing of how you get there.

Don't get confused with different teachers, see the shapes they all create.

Kesshu

Adrian.

PS If you go to hombu and ask I'm sure he'll show you too!
A very well-informed and informative post Ade.... I totally agree.....
Merry Christmas. :)

[kirgan]

Gassho

I was at hombu in 2002 and Kawachima Sensei showed me that there are less than 10 shapes that you can make with the wrist/arm which cause pain,

see the shapes, not the window dressing of how you get there.

Don't get confused with different teachers, see the shapes they all create.

Kesshu

Adrian.


Gassho,

Thanks for that advise. That kind of made one of those light bulb moments go off in my head. I'll take that to heart and try to envision that from now on.

Kesshu

--Mike

[johan_frendin]

Gassho

In have also been watching this one with interest.


Ade - The techniques are merely vehicles to transmit the principles behind the techniques which are the diamonds.

This is very true but only in a limited way – The Shorinjikempo way.

The principles stated above you can find in almost any martial arts on the planet: Shorinjikempo, Aikido, Ju jitsu, Judo, Pentiak silat, Kali, Krav maga, etc. Each of these martial art apply these principles in their own way. In some kali style I have seen they do kansetsu wasa almost exactly as Shorinjikempo but at the same time use sweeps and trips as an ingredience of the techniques. In jujitsu and Judo the use of tembin dori is widely spread and they use it standing, on the floor etc. Techniques higher up in our system like Hangetsu kubi nage are used in Judo but applied with a hip throw which I have very seldom or never seen during my 20 years in Shorinjikempo.

I believe this confuses the minarai and lower graded students. Teachers say that the techniques is only a vehicle to transmit the principle behind the techniques. But if a student do okuri gote with a legsweep is this accepted as a correct technique?
If a higher graded student take a 4 dan exam and use techniques hangetsu kubi nage, maki uchi kubi nage, Bukkotsu nage with a hip throw or a tai otoshi variation http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/taiotoshi.htm is this correct?

Personally I do not know. I am also little bit confused.

Johan Frendin

[Ade]

Dear All

Initially I was going to say that performing okuri gote with a hip throw might be considered a major break with any kind of Shorinji Kempo form, then I remembered Sensei Aosaka's version of Konoha gaeshi with the hip throw and laughed at myself.

Personally, I think what confuses people is the little things like mae and ushiro geri both done from tai gamae then someone else comes along and teaches one from hiraki gamae, (apologies to all non-Shorinji Kempo Kenshi reading, serves you right why aren't you?!)

That leads to the question which one do I do in grading?

I remember my partner for 1st kyu in 1993 screaming through gritted teeth "just show me the ONE definitive version that I NEED to grade!"

I don't think it helped when I suggested that was a definite sign of a closed mind in practice, he was very stressed.

The answer is the one that you've been practicing that works.

At Southampton University Dojo whenever we run the black belts through all of the Ten chi ken's we say "And this is the count.........this week, BE FLEXIBLE....no don't be! " :)

Whilst many styles use the same principles in their system Shorinji Kempo is the only one that looks like Shorinji Kempo, whether in or out of a gi.
It is totally unique in the way it does things but we need to remember that the struggle to sho dan (http://judoinfo.com/bb.htm) is with ourselves.
Having attained some modicum of control over ourselves we then continue our study in order to attempt to control man's violence.

How's that? :rolleyes:

Adrian.

[David Dunn]

At a training camp a long time ago, I saw a demonstration of sokuto gari after chidori gaeshi when the attack was gyaku zuki. In this case, the attacker's front leg knee was kicked from the inside of the leg toward the outside. The knee isn't designed to move in that direction, especially with weight on it, and I think we all cringed as the attacker went down. The victim had a bit of a limp the rest of the day- definitely a "don't do this at home" lesson!

I've seen Jee Sensei do that, with much the same reaction by myself. Ouch.

[Ade]

I believe it's referred to as the Kyohan version and is much frowned upon even demonstrating at senior grade.....for obvious reasons. :nono:

Knees are too serious to be "f" 'd around with, ask Sensei Russell.

Adrian.

[paul browne]

Gassho

Hi Anders


Also note that it is not sokuto geri, that we do after chidori gaeshi, but one of the five types of kari ashi that we have in Shorinjikempo. The one that is usually used in the case of chidori gaeshi is sokuto gari, the others are called sokutei gari, nai sokuto gari, kyakuto gari and ushiro kakato gari.

I think I'm familiar with the various reaping techniques (since I enjoy making opponents horizontal, its a short guy thing:) ) but I'm not totally sure of the correct terms used.
For clarity could you briefly explain the different types (ie. Sokuto gari uses the outer edge of the foot, obviously) I can make an educated guess at some of them but it would be nice to have the correct terms.

Thanks in advance,
Paul
Kesshu

[Anders Pettersson]

I think I'm familiar with the various reaping techniques (since I enjoy making opponents horizontal, its a short guy thing:) ) but I'm not totally sure of the correct terms used.
For clarity could you briefly explain the different types (ie. Sokuto gari uses the outer edge of the foot, obviously) I can make an educated guess at some of them but it would be nice to have the correct terms.

Hi Paul.

OK better late than never.

Here is a try to a short explanation of the different types of Kari ashi [刈足] that we have in Shorinjikempo.
(Should also add that I made a little mistake in the above, it should be ushiro kakato gari, not kakato gari. I have edited my previous post and also fixed your quote of my text.)

sokuto gari [足刀刈]
A reap with the outside of the foot edge, as commonly used after chidori gaeshi.

sokutei gari [足低刈]
Sokutei is the sole of the foot, one sweeps the opponents leg by hitting with the sole of one's own foot. Commonly used when grabbing the opponents sleeve/lapel and pulling/pushing trying to get kuzushi and sweep by using sokutei gari.

nai sokuto gari [内足刀刈]
Basically same as sokutei gari but hit with the inside of the foot edge (nai is another reading of the same kanji used for "uchi" in uchi uke zuki). Hurts more than sokutei gari and I recommend using sokutei gari instead during practice. :)

kyakuto gari [脚刀刈]
Kyakuto gari is sweeping with the backside of the lower leg (calf), for instance used in harai bukkotsu nage and similar techniques.

ushiro kakato gari [後踵刈]
Is basically the same as kyakuto gari but one hit with the back of the heel instead of the calf, a little more difficult to hit the target than when using kyakuto, but a lot more painful for the opponent.

I hope this helps.

/Anders