Kiichi Nakamoto? [Archive]

Nadelman

20th December 2005, 13:31

I am trying to find out more/comfirm information about Kiichi Nakamoto from Okinawa. This is what I know:

He is the President of the Okinawan Weapons Society, "Ryukyu Dento Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai", and is recognized by the Okinawan and Japanese governments.

He is also an 8th Dan in Goju-Ryu and has several schools in Okinawa and Japan.

I have been unable to locate his name anywhere on the internet except for his association with Peter Carbone, who is the head of Weapons Connection Society (WCS) - "Ryukyunote Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai" located in Michigan.

If anyone has a link, or anything else. Thanks.

dsomers

20th December 2005, 14:26

There's not much on him out there. I was trying to find some info on him a while ago, & couldnt find much. Here is a site that I think one of his students put up: http://www12.plala.or.jp/goukikan/ .

Nadelman

20th December 2005, 14:37

This is him on the right:

http://www12.plala.or.jp/goukikan/ (in the middle of the page)

http://www12.plala.or.jp/goukikan/02_thumb.jpg

I know this guy is definitely legitimate, but perhaps everything in him is in Japanese?

Nadelman

20th December 2005, 14:40

(in the middle of the page, on the right side of the picture)

http://www12.plala.or.jp/goukikan/syasin1.html

dsomers

20th December 2005, 15:15

Yes, everything that I found, which isnt much was in Japanese. He was w/ the Jundokan/OGKK, & from what I have heard has a Ku Dan from them. His Dojo is called The Okinawa Kan though. Cant find much more info on him.

David

Sanseru

21st December 2005, 22:23

Hi David:

Translating from the photo you provided:

"August 2003 in Okinawa at the Karate World Tournament. On the right, Okinawa Goju-ryu Karatedo Kyokai, Okinawa-kan Soke Nakamoto Kiichi sensei. Nakamoto sensei is the founder of the Okinawa Dento Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai".

You could always just ask him yourself...

On the Okinawa Prefectural Education site (http://www-edu.pref.okinawa.jp/hotai/karate/dojolist/ryukaiha25.htm)

Okinawa Goju-ryu Karatedo Kyokai
Okinawa-ken
Okinawa-shi
Aza Matsumoto 5-18-7
904-2151
JAPAN
Tel. 098-937-6009

Open from 10:00 am to 11:00 pm. Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun: Children 5:30-7:30; Youth 8:00-9:30; Adults 9:30-11:00.

Hope this helps.

Nadelman

22nd December 2005, 04:07

Great. Thanks! This is what I was looking for.

Respects.

Normal Guy

29th December 2005, 00:02

Hi there. I just spent two weeks with Nakamoto Kiichi in his home in Okinawa. He is a wonderful man and extremely well respected in Okinawa and in Japan. He is actually rather famous, yet humble. He is truly an ancient weapons master, who's weapons kata flow from the Kanagusuku line. His organization is prestigious. Actually, he is also a master of Goju Ryu, and I believe is one of the two last living people to have been a direct student of Miyagusuku, or Miyagi. If you were to ask any one who really knows anything about Okinawa and its martial art, they would immediately recognize him and identify their respect. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me. I'm glad you were interested.

wsteigner

29th December 2005, 01:21

[. Actually, he is also a master of Goju Ryu, and I believe is one of the two last living people to have been a direct student of Miyagusuku, or Miyagi.

Hi Normal Guy;I think there are a few more still living who had trained with Miyagi Sensei.This is the first i have heard of Nakamoto Kiichi Sensei having trained with Miyagi Sensei .
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Normal Guy

30th December 2005, 14:31

I'm only repeating what Master Nakamoto shared with me. Perhaps he was referring to currently living masters of Goju Ryu. Either way, if you ever have a chance to meet him you should. He is a great man. Normal.

dsomers

30th December 2005, 15:26

Seikichi Kinjo, Koshin Iha, & I believe Sakagami Roshi are all living students of Miyagi Sensei; as well as An'Ichi Miyagi, & Teruo Chinen. I am sure there are others, as well.
I never knew he (Nakamoto Kiichi Sensei) was a direct student of Miyagi Sensei, I've seen him do a Manji Sai Kata before, & I liked it quite a bit. I do hope to meet him someday!

David

wsteigner

30th December 2005, 20:26

Hi Normal; I first met Nakamoto Kiichi at the year end party for the Jinbukan
of Kanei Katsuyoshi Sensei in 1979. We met again in Atlanta 2001 at the World meet. After 21 years I didn`t really know who it was until i got home and looked at my pictures because i felt i had met him before.As you said he is a very nice man and did a manji sai kata for the group. I think that is the one David talked about. I hope to be able to visit with him on my next trip.
thank you
bill steigner
Jinbukai

Joseph Svinth

31st December 2005, 03:52

Normal --

Your real name is in your public profile, but per forum rules, please add it to your signature block, too. Either that, or sign it every post.

Thank you.

ryukyu2000

31st December 2005, 15:21

Mr. Somers:

If I am correct, Ko Uehara Sensei is also a living student of Miyagi Sensei.

Regards,

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

dsomers

31st December 2005, 15:33

I never knew that either, I thought he was a student of Miyazato Sensei. Have you ever trained w/ him (Uehara Ko)?

David

ryukyu2000

31st December 2005, 19:07

David-san:

No, but I do know that Kathy Loukopoulos Sensei who sometimes contributes to this list trained for many years while on Okinawa with Uehara Sensei and there is an extensive article in Fighting Arts International about her efforts. Also, I believe there is a picture in Higaonna Sensei's book regarding the remaining direct students of Miyagi Sensei and Uehara Sensei is present.

Regards,

Andy Morris
Delmar, NY USA

RobertRousselot

1st January 2006, 07:23

1) I am trying to find out more/comfirm information about Kiichi Nakamoto from Okinawa. This is what I know:

2) He is the President of the Okinawan Weapons Society, "Ryukyu Dento Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai", and is recognized by the Okinawan and Japanese governments.

He is also an 8th Dan in Goju-Ryu and has several schools in Okinawa and Japan.

3) I have been unable to locate his name anywhere on the internet except for his association with Peter Carbone, who is the head of Weapons Connection Society (WCS) - "Ryukyunote Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai" located in Michigan.

1) Why do you want to know about him?
2) Being recognised by the Japanese Gov. doesn't mean anything.
3) Peter Carbone.....be very careful of what this guy says.

Normal Guy

1st January 2006, 10:15

Normal Guy

1st January 2006, 10:20

For clarity, my name is David Lipski and you can reach me via personal email at dlipski@twmi.rr.com or call me at (248) 202-5555 for more information or to discuss this further. Or, if you would rather continue a discussion on this very user friendly public forum, that is fine as well. Thanks. David.

Normal Guy

1st January 2006, 10:24

Nadelman

1st January 2006, 15:22

1) Why do you want to know about him?
2) Being recognised by the Japanese Gov. doesn't mean anything.
3) Peter Carbone.....be very careful of what this guy says.

I am a Shodan since 1984, (sort of a "Ronin") and have not really advanced (in knowledge and skill, rank is not important to me ) because I have been so "on and off" for these years due to travel, business, family, etc. I am now in a position to begin studying again seriously. I have found a great Isshin-Ryu school locally, with solid credentials, and it is through this affiliation that I was introduced to Mr. Carbone.

As is the state of affairs in the U.S., I generally like to make sure that I am working with solid people before I start studying with them. I have no reason to doubt anyone at all, but I just like to make sure as a rule. I just don't want to waste my time at the age of 40 (41 soon, but who is counting?).

So, this is what I have learned so far - Please forgive me in advance for any errors, and please feel free to correct me:

1) Nakamoto Kiichi has a solid reputation in Okinawa. He is an 8th Dan in Goju-Ryu and founder of The Ryukyu Dento Kobujutsu Hozon Budo Kyokai. I am unclear where he recieved his ranking in Kobudo, or if this comes from the Goju-Ryu background. However, because of his good reputation, I am confident that I will learn about this soon.

2) Peter Carbone is an 8th Dan in Isshin-Ryu under Angi Uezu, is the U.S. representative of Mr. Nakamoto. His rank in Kobudo comes from Mr. Nakamoto (kyoshi ?).

3) My current instructor, Renshi-Go Heidi Gauntner, 6th Dan Isshin-Ryu, who is rock solid (personally and professionally) hold's a 3rd Dan under Mr. Carbone and is the Ohio representative for Mr. Carbone's organization. In Isshin-Ryu she has been ranked directly by Shimabuku Kichiru, the current headmaster of Isshin-Ryu - IWKA. She is also recognized by Hanshi William Deussell, 9th Dan under the same Shimabuku (who I have met), and is also quoted in his book. She also studied under the late John Lennox, 8th Dan Isshinryu.

So far, I would say that Mr. Carbone checks out. The only missing key for me was Mr. Nakamoto, who I had not heard of before (which is not surprising since I am not an especially important person).

I did meet Mr. Carbone and attended a seminar he gave. He was very humble and personable. I have been around (on and off) since 1978 and have no reason to doubt anything I have seen, or the reputable people who give him the "thumbs up". Ronald Reagon said "Trust, but verify". This is a good rule to follow for anyone in any line of business or any affiliation before they make an investment (even if it is of one's time).

The sai I ordered from him are very well balanced and second to none (in my humble opinion). They are the best that I have ever owned.

If anyone has anthing else to offer to help fill in here, please do. But again, I have no reason to doubt Mr. Carbone or Mr. Nakamoto based on the integrity of the people who vouch for them and my personal experience with him during his visit.

I intend to begin classes in his organization under Sensei Gauntner very soon.

With respect,

Normal Guy

1st January 2006, 15:36

I look forward to meeting you one day and will consider it an honor and a privilege. Thank you for your information and sincerity. Nakamoto's weapon lineage goes back to Shosei Kina, who goes back to Kanagusuku Sanda, aka, Kinjo Ufuchiku. Let me know if you need any other information and I will help the best I can.

With respect as well,

David Lipski

dsomers

1st January 2006, 17:18

Hello again David, did you ever hear of Nakamoto Sensei mentioning anything about Karamiti, as well? The reason I ask is that Shinyu Isa, who from what i read succeded Shosei Kina taught something called karamiti, as well . There's very little information available on this art, that i can find in the english language, but from what i gather it is a system of joint locks, & knowledge of striking vital points. Just curious.

David

RobertRousselot

2nd January 2006, 00:46

Hello, my name is David Lipski. I am curious about your quote indicating that one should be careful of "what Peter Carbone say." I don't understand what you mean and would like to know more. Please advise.

Peter Carbone is fairly infamous in my teachers association for various things. Years ago Carbone came to a few seminars held by my teacher and then proceeded to call various kata “Uhugushuku no xxxxx kata” or “Wakinaguri no xxxxx kata”. These are actually the names of two teachers that my own teacher received instruction from. Carbone was finally asked to stop using these two gentlemen’s names since he had no right to and because they weren't the names of those paticular kata.

RobertRousselot

2nd January 2006, 00:51

Also, was the comment that "being recognized by the Japanese government doesn't mean anything," posted to this thread to accomplish something in particular or to send some sort of message? I would like to know more. Thanks. David Lipski

I thought it would be fairly obvious. I guess not.
Being recognized for martial arts by any government doesn’t mean anything.
Let’s say Senator Ted Kennedy recognizes someone for martial arts…..so what…what the hell does he know about martial arts.
That would be like me recognizing someone for Sambo…..an art I know almost nothing about.

Nadelman

2nd January 2006, 01:17

Not being familiar with how it works in Japan or Okinawa, what does it mean if someone is recognized as a "National Treasure" by the Okinawa Prefecture?

Thanks,

Neil

RobertRousselot

2nd January 2006, 01:32

Not being familiar with how it works in Japan or Okinawa, what does it mean if someone is recognized as a "National Treasure" by the Okinawa Prefecture?

Thanks,

Neil

I know of several folks in Okinawa that claim to be recognized by the Japanese/Okinawan Gov…..it means they schmoozed and got some local politician to say so. i.e. the Governor or some Assemblymen.

Being recognized as a “National Living Treasure” is something different.
This is given to those few people that have contributed to whatever art they do and are recognized by their peers and then given an award/title by the Ministry Office of Cultural Affairs.

Are you saying Kiichi Nakamoto is one?
If he is I didn’t find him on any list. If he is one maybe you can direct to me to some official list in Japanese that states he is.

Ed Gingras

2nd January 2006, 03:48

I first met Sensei Kiichi Nakamoto in the late 70's. He is very active in promoting traditional Okinawan Karate/Kobudo and has been recognized by the Japanese Diet for his lifetime contribution to Karate. There was a nice write-up in the local paper about this award and quite a few folks showed up at his dojo for the awards party (including a former Prime Minister). I do not train with him so I did not keep the article (written in Japanese) on file. However, there are several folks on this forum who are historians, so one of them may have a good reference for the article.

Edward Gingras

Normal Guy

2nd January 2006, 16:33

Peter Carbone is fairly infamous in my teachers association for various things. Years ago Carbone came to a few seminars held by my teacher and then proceeded to call various kata “Uhugushuku no xxxxx kata” or “Wakinaguri no xxxxx kata”. These are actually the names of two teachers that my own teacher received instruction from. Carbone was finally asked to stop using these two gentlemen’s names since he had no right to and because they weren't the names of those paticular kata.

Mr. Rousselot, do you have any personal knowledge about things done or said by Kyoshi Carbone, or are you reiterating what someone has told you? Were you at these seminars? Did you witness any of these "infamous" things? Are you sure Kyoshi Carbone only attended a few seminars and that was the extent of his relationship with your teacher?

I usually like to check my facts before I insult someone, if I am going to insult them at all. I wonder, do you really have any information verifying whether Kyoshi Carbone referred to any kata as "Wakinaguri no XXXXX," or are you making it up? I've never heard that before.

And, if he said Uhugusuku No Bo, I'm curious, is that a mistake? Are the people around the world that pracice Uhugusuku No Bo, Oshiro No Bo and Ogushiku No Bo all mistaken as well? Your teacher's book seems to indicate that some Bo kata did come from Uhugusuku and that Bo and Jo were the most important family weapons?

Who asked him to stop anything and what authority did they have to do so? Was it you? Who are you to him? What would prohibit anyone in the world from using those two names? Are they the subject of trademark or copyright law? Were you harmed in some way?

Do you have personal knowledge of whether Kyoshi Carbone only came to a your teacher by making their relationship seem smaller than it was? Did you witness when your teacher gave Kyoshi Carbone his Go-Dan. Why did he do that? Of course, later, the relationship ended, but did it never exist?

You are now and have in the past devoted much time and energy to discussing Kyoshi Carbone with others. I have spoken with others to whom you have spread negative and incorrect information to about Kyoshi Carbone. I wonder why it is that he has spent so much time living rent free in your head? Maybe you should ask yourself the question? I don't know if he thinks about you at all. Seems like an unfair trade in time and thoughts.

Since I will as a matter of personal ethics not insult or speak negatively about third parties on this or any other forum, I can't totally understand what you are thinking when you do so, but it must be very important to you to be heard. We have now listened and you should feel heard & complete. I guess that some martial artists need to say I'm the best and my teacher is the best to feel good. Others just feel good about themselves and their affiliates regardless of whether they are able to disparage others. I wish the latter for you one day.

I do, however, ask that you cease and desist from any references to Kyoshi Carbone's name in the future, either good or bad, unless you have been authorized to do so by a court of law. What you are doing is wrong.

You would have no reason to know this, and probably have a hard time listening to any opinion but your own, but Kyoshi Carbone is a gifted, learned and talented martial artist. One of his many goals is to teach his students humility and respect. Backstabbing and ridicule are not within his program, nor are they commonplace in his students. Martial artists are supposed to behave as Bushi, or in other words, as gentlemen. I'm sorry that you missed that train. However, there is always a new train coming. Why don't you buy a ticket and jump aboard?

Thank you and best wishes in your future endeavors.

David Lipski

Nadelman

2nd January 2006, 17:16

Are you saying Kiichi Nakamoto is one?
If he is I didn’t find him on any list. If he is one maybe you can direct to me to some official list in Japanese that states he is.
Mr. Rousselot, this was my question:

"Not being familiar with how it works in Japan or Okinawa, what does it mean if someone is recognized as a "National Treasure" by the Okinawa Prefecture?"

I can't seem to find Mr. Nakamoto's name in that question anywhere, can you?

Nabeshima Naoshige once said: "Intelligence is the flower of discrimination. There are many examples of the flower blooming but not bearing fruit"

RobertRousselot

4th January 2006, 01:03

Mr. Rousselot, do you have any personal knowledge about things done or said by Kyoshi Carbone, or are you reiterating what someone has told you? Were you at these seminars? Did you witness any of these "infamous" things? Are you sure Kyoshi Carbone only attended a few seminars and that was the extent of his relationship with your teacher?

1) I usually like to check my facts before I insult someone, if I am going to insult them at all. I wonder, do you really have any information verifying whether Kyoshi Carbone referred to any kata as "Wakinaguri no XXXXX," or are you making it up? I've never heard that before.
2) You are now and have in the past devoted much time and energy to discussing Kyoshi Carbone with others.
3) I have spoken with others to whom you have spread negative and incorrect information to about Kyoshi Carbone.
4) I do, however, ask that you cease and desist from any references to Kyoshi Carbone's name in the future, either good or bad, unless you have been authorized to do so by a court of law. What you are doing is wrong.
David Lipski

Well someone has certainly gotten themselves all worked up. Me thinks you doth protest too much. I will make this brief and to the point since this thread has drifted far away from it’s original topic, after which I will not discuss this matter any more.

1) Approximately 6 years ago he had it posted on his website. I know this because when I did a GOGGLE search for Uhugushuku and Wakinaguri Carbone’s website popped up. He has since removed any such references.
2) That is a gross over statement. As far as I recall I have made only two references about Carbone, both were my personal opinions and hardly grounds for “libel” as you cried in your PM to me. One was here on this forum and the other was on a now defunct forum. On that forum I stated I would not but anything from him due to personal reasons. So if you have proof of any other comments I have made publicly about Carbone cough’em up. I can discuss who I like, whenever I like, and with whom ever I like. Freedom of speech is part of the First Amendment….you should know that…..even though you are only a real estate lawyer.
3) Yes, and to a teenage boy that “claims”* to train with 2 members that were expelled from my teacher’s organization. (as in maybe once every couple of months)
Link found here: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:KSFUg8U-THEJ:karate.dhs.org/forums/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D408%26sid%3Dbd3208fa960da65889d92ba29f082cbd+peter+carbone+uhugushuku&hl=en
The kid claimed he heard it “rumored” and you jump all over him like a pit bull in heat. It seems you tried to bully him then just as you are trying to bully me now. You are developing a pattern of this kind of behavior. It also states that Mr. Oyata’s 2nd most senior student didn’t like Carbone either, I am surprised you didn’t send him a nasty gram as well……..or did you?

4) “Good or bad”….so you are saying I can’t saying anything good about him either? Do you realize how retarded that sounds?

Lipski,

While doing a search for Carbone in order to find ALL these comments I supposedly made about him (of which I found none) I found this located on the Soke Menkyo Kai Website http://www.sokeship.com/LINKS.htm
Maybe you can explain this to me.

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From Carbone’s own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it “explodes out of the end”?

RobertRousselot

4th January 2006, 01:08

I can't seem to find Mr. Nakamoto's name in that question anywhere, can you?

No, which is why I asked if that is what your point for asking it was.

Nadelman

4th January 2006, 04:31

"A man never discloses his own character so clearly as when he describes another's."

Jean Paul Richter
.
.
.
.

Normal Guy

4th January 2006, 14:29

Well someone has certainly gotten themselves all worked up. Me thinks you doth protest too much. I will make this brief and to the point since this thread has drifted far away from it’s original topic, after which I will not discuss this matter any more.

1) Approximately 6 years ago he had it posted on his website. I know this because when I did a GOGGLE search for Uhugushuku and Wakinaguri Carbone’s website popped up. He has since removed any such references.
2) That is a gross over statement. As far as I recall I have made only two references about Carbone, both were my personal opinions and hardly grounds for “libel” as you cried in your PM to me. One was here on this forum and the other was on a now defunct forum. On that forum I stated I would not but anything from him due to personal reasons. So if you have proof of any other comments I have made publicly about Carbone cough’em up. I can discuss who I like, whenever I like, and with whom ever I like. Freedom of speech is part of the First Amendment….you should know that…..even though you are only a real estate lawyer.
3) Yes, and to a teenage boy that “claims”* to train with 2 members that were expelled from my teacher’s organization. (as in maybe once every couple of months)
Link found here: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:KSFUg8U-THEJ:karate.dhs.org/forums/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D408%26sid%3Dbd3208fa960da65889d92ba29f082cbd+peter+carbone+uhugushuku&hl=en
The kid claimed he heard it “rumored” and you jump all over him like a pit bull in heat. It seems you tried to bully him then just as you are trying to bully me now. You are developing a pattern of this kind of behavior. It also states that Mr. Oyata’s 2nd most senior student didn’t like Carbone either, I am surprised you didn’t send him a nasty gram as well……..or did you?

4) “Good or bad”….so you are saying I can’t saying anything good about him either? Do you realize how retarded that sounds?

Lipski,

While doing a search for Carbone in order to find ALL these comments I supposedly made about him (of which I found none) I found this located on the Soke Menkyo Kai Website http://www.sokeship.com/LINKS.htm
Maybe you can explain this to me.

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai “charged” with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From Carbone’s own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it “explodes out of the end”?

Dear Mr. Rousselot:

Valient effort on your homework, but a bit inacurrate. The proper reference to William Shakespeare is as follows:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

--From Hamlet (III, ii, 239)

Queen Gertrude speaks these famous words to her son, Prince Hamlet, while watching a play at court. Gertrude does not realize that Hamlet has staged this play to trap her and her new husband, King Claudius, whom Hamlet suspects of having murdered his father. She also does not realize that the lady who "doth protest too much" is actually herself, as the Player King and Queen represent King Hamlet and Queen Gertrude. The former will be poisoned (in this play within the play) by the king's brother, as in reality (Hamlet suspects) Claudius killed King Hamlet. Gertrude's statement is in response to the play-Queen's repetitive statements of loyalty to and love of her first husband.

Nice try though. Still, I will not lower myself to casting aspersions on you personally nor on any of the people with whom you affiliate. I do think it is important to point out that using the term "retarded" in this day and age is a bit unsophisticated, but perhaps its a term you are comfortable with and I don't want to cause you any stress by encouraging you to change your ways.

Either way, I have "heard" you and read your posts. I agree, we are done communicating, although perhaps we should instead start over. I'm sure you have many valuable personal assets as a martial artist. It is unfortunate that they aren't effectively portrayed in the tone of your postings. Either way, I have no hard feelings. I simply would like for you to stop insulting people in public forums. Its really not appropriate and does not reflect on you or your affiliates well at all.

If you choose to continue disparaging people internationally on the internet, there is really nothing I can do about it, and even if I could, its not worth the time, and investment.

As far as your questions about Kyoshi Carbone's Sai, feel free to ask him yourself if you are sincerely curious. It sounds like you want a pair. Perhaps you should order the Sai and have your questions answered? I believe him, and believe in him, and know him to be a superior martial artist in all respects. He has taught me humility, respect and to fight for what is right. I believe in my heart that what you have done is wrong.

However, you are entitled to your opinions, but I do advise you to use care, because aspersions that are not true do in fact constitute slander, libel and defamation, depending on the form they take. Even if you will not have a consequence for your behavior, maybe your own internal moral compass will kick in and stop the chatter. I'm sure you don't feel good about yourself as a result of your comments. It wouldn't make sense if you did.

Either way, I wish you no ill will or harm and hope that you continue to have a long, happy, healthy and positive martial art career. Thank you for your time and attention to this matter and I too agree that enough has been said on these issues. Please do stop the insults and backstabbing. Thank you.

Very truly yours, David Lipski

RobertRousselot

6th January 2006, 01:12

1) Why do you want to know about him?
2) Being recognised by the Japanese Gov. doesn't mean anything.
3) Peter Carbone.....be very careful of what this guy says.

Just to qualify my comments as to why I would be careful what Carbone says.
Because of claims like these :rolleyes: :

From Carbone’s website:
http://www.weaponsconnection.com/

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

Nadelman

6th January 2006, 10:45

Robert,

Why do you keep getting banned from other forums? Is it your obnoxious and confrontational demeanor?

It seems you have a history of harrassing people on these forums.

***************************************
RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/m...php?userid=7120
***************************************

You will have to log in to this one to see his profile:

RRouuselot Banned User

http://www.martialtalk.com
***************************************

***********************************************
:D :D You still refuse to contact Kyoshi Carbone directly :D :D
***********************************************

LOL

RobertRousselot

6th January 2006, 10:55

Nadelman

6th January 2006, 12:59

You have finally built up the courage...Great! Now you can stop wasting our time (Even though we have all already provided you with an account of our excellent experience with the product and Mr. Carbone) :rolleyes:

****Oh by the way... You claim that martialtalk attracted "okey sokeys". So, then why do you have hundreds of posts there? You spent an awful lot of time on that forum...

Birds of a feather, flock together?

BTW, you were banned by Budoseek.net as well....Two out of three aint bad :)

RobertRousselot

6th January 2006, 13:00

In addition to Martial Talk, you are also banned from Budoseek.com as well...

RRousselot Account Suspended:

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/m...php?userid=7120

Nope, just suspended. Do you know the difference?

Nadelman

6th January 2006, 13:14

Banned, suspended, yadda yadda yadda...

The bottom line is that you are not a desirable person.

.

Doug Daulton

6th January 2006, 15:43

OK everyone, this an official reminder to play nice. Robert raises some legitimate questions. So, let's wait for an answer. Until then, everyone take a deep breath and refrain from acting like playground brats who quote "The Bard".

As far as having legitimacy of claims challenged, this is a valid use of these forums. If you are going to make claims about yourself, your teacher, your lineage and/or your waza ... expect to have folks challenge the facts if they smell something off. Not everyone believes that being polite is the best policy. While I do, I respect the rights of others to be insufferably blunt. So, some need to be more tactful and others need thicken up their skins. I'll leave it up to each individual to decide which case applies to them.

A final note, I do not care what other forums choose do with their members. I only care about e-Budo.com's policies and the intellectual integrity of the OMA forums I moderate. Keep this in mind.

Best regards,

Doug Daulton

RobertRousselot

7th January 2006, 11:20

Well folks here it is. The long awaited reply from Carbone. Please read it and see if you can find an answer to a single question I asked. I can’t.

Rousselot Sensei,
1)I was a dedicated student of Mr. Oyata myself for 6 years.
2) I still stay in close contact with Amor Sensei and Wicklund Sensei.
We travel to see each other and train from time to time.

I am confused.
3) Due to your rudeness and insulting nature of our last experience,
I don’t know what has changed from then to now.
First time shame on you, second time shame on me.
So, you will have to excuse me if I feel skeptical of your requests.
Are there ulterior motives? I hope I am wrong.

If this is a way of apologizing for our first encounter, then I will consider it.
I am not interested in getting into a yakking contest.
There is more to the Martial Art than physically hurting some one.
You MUST respect your elders and superiors, according to my family.

My policy is, “If you don’t want the Agena Sai, I don’t want you to have it.
Please send it back and I will return your money. No questions asked.”
In all the years making the Agena Sai, no one has EVER returned them.

I’ll bet I have been perfecting the Agena Sai technique as long or longer than you have been in the Martial Art.
I made my first pair in 1973. Started Martial Art in 1960 at age 14 and serious study in 1972 and traveled to Okinawa
for the first time in 1980 and have been there 23 times and continue to go.
I have never asked for any Rank, Title or Position from anyone.
I make the best and I know it and so does everyone who has the Agena Sai.
Soon, I will retire from making the Agena Sai and become the little old wine maker.
Wine is my passion and I make the best wine, also.
I think I will have a glass after I am through writing this email.

4) When I received your email I wrote a long letter explanation of the mistakes made in your investigation
of my web site description and information about the Agena Sai.
If that was your intent to make me work, you were successful. I only type with 2 fingers.
I will know better next time when someone writes without giving their name.
I hope it was an honest mistake and not a rude gesture.

Even though this email may seem a little uneasy, I don’t really want to have enemies.
I would rather put everything behind and start fresh with a good relationship.
I have made many mistakes in my life. I am too old for bad feelings.
If you want a crude dialog, please don’t write again.
If you are sincere about the education of the Agena Sai I have a DVD of Kihon Buri and some training techniques,
along with a short explanation with historical relationship.
Even Hokama Sensei, PHD was interested.
He is a good friend of Mr. Oyata and requested my Agena Sai.
It is almost finished and will be sent Monday with the DVD.

Sincerely,
Peter Carbone

1)He was a seminar student during that time. Carbone lives in MI, Mr Oyata lives in KC.
2) Two people that were “asked”* to leave Mr. Oyata’s Assoc.(*read booted out) Hardly “character witnesses”. What was the quote Nadelman used?? Oh ya…."birds of a feather"…
3) Gee, he seems to remember me. Seems he hasn’t forgotten about the last time I contacted him about his website having the references to Uhugushuku and Wakinaguri and asked him to remove it.
4) I quoted his own website and asked him to explain the claims he made so I am wondering where these “mistakes” I made are?

Well I count 510 words and nowhere is there an answer to a single question I asked. Actually I expected something like this from him.

Normal Guy

7th January 2006, 20:28

Well folks here it is. The long awaited reply from Carbone. Please read it and see if you can find an answer to a single question I asked. I can’t.

1)He was a seminar student during that time. Carbone lives in MI, Mr Oyata lives in KC.
2) Two people that were “asked”* to leave Mr. Oyata’s Assoc.(*read booted out) Hardly “character witnesses”. What was the quote Nadelman used?? Oh ya…."birds of a feather"…
3) Gee, he seems to remember me. Seems he hasn’t forgotten about the last time I contacted him about his website having the references to Uhugushuku and Wakinaguri and asked him to remove it.
4) I quoted his own website and asked him to explain the claims he made so I am wondering where these “mistakes” I made are?

Well I count 510 words and nowhere is there an answer to a single question I asked. Actually I expected something like this from him.

Bobby, make sure you point out that you sent him your email anonymously and cut and pasted only a portion of one of the emails you exchanged with him in your posting.

Now that you have prevailed in your quest, I hope that you can be at peace.

It makes me sad to see the part of human nature you portray.

By the way, I was there during those "six years" and you are flat out lying about the nature of his relationship with Master Oyata and you know nothing about the seperation. You should be ashamed of yourself. David Lipski

Rob Alvelais

7th January 2006, 21:08

Bobby, make sure you point out that you sent him your email anonymously and cut and pasted only a portion of one of the emails you exchanged with him in your posting.

You got proof that Rob R did that? Time to put up.

Rob

Doug Daulton

7th January 2006, 21:34

Bobby ... you are flat out lying ... David Lipski

Mr. Lipiski,

Two observations.

1) Everyone gets your pejorative use of the diminutive "Bobby" for Robert. I asked everyone to behave like adult, not playground brats. Please heed the warning.

2) Robert may be a lot of things ... blunt, tenacious and even, on occaision, a bit of a thorn in my side. :) However, I've never known him to be a liar. So, I suggest you back up your claims with a little fact or cease making them.

Now, so it does not appear I am being biased, I would like to suggest that Robert post the source email sent to Mr. Carbone. It would help clarify exactly what questions were asked.

Regards,

Jock Armstrong

7th January 2006, 22:15

If Robert sent the mail anonymously why does the reply refer to him directly as "Mr Rousselot"?.
Mr Lipski, we have never met.However, the tone of your posts and the condescending language indicate to me that I wouldn't like you.
Mr Carbonne's strange claims about "ki" exploding from sai et al place him in the realm of huckster or nutcase. You choose which one you prefer.
I've had differences of opinion with Robert on subjects before but he didn't strike me as the kind of person to lie.

RobertRousselot

7th January 2006, 22:20

The first Email with my original questions where I forgot to sign my name.
Usually my signature is automatically at the bottom.

-----Original Message-----
From: Me
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 6:02 PM
To: carbonesan
Subject:

Mr. Carbone,

I have a few questions for you that some of your associates seem to be unable to answer.
Maybe you can explain this to me. I found these on the internet:

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai "charged" with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From your own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it "explodes out of the end"?
4) Is it possible to see this explosion?

The second reply. Carbone requests my name. I give it.

Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:57 AM
Subject: Re:

This is Robert Rousselot a student of Mr. Oyata.
----- Original Message -----
From: Carbone
To: Me
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:25 AM
Subject: RE:

Dear ?,
Thank you for the email and interest in true handcrafted Okinawa weaponry.
Please identify yourself, so I know who I am replying too.

There are misunderstandings in your email. I never say some things you address.
I want to correct your mistakes and help you understand the Agena Sai.

As soon as you reply I will explain it to you the best I can by email.
It would be better to speak to you, or even better yet, visit me in Michigan.
My door is always open to serious Martial Artists wanting an education.
Many come to visit me from all over.
Spend a couple of days and we will have an interesting Martial Art study.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Peter Carbone

The third email with the plethora :rolleyes: of answers to my questions is already posted.

(one thing to note is the times are japan time and US time so in some places it looks like he has replied even bofre I asked the question or given an answer)

Doug Daulton

7th January 2006, 22:27

Nadelman

7th January 2006, 22:46

Originally Posted by RobertRousselot

1)He was a seminar student during that time. Carbone lives in MI, Mr Oyata lives in KC.

Originally Posted by Normal Guy

By the way, I was there during those "six years" and you are flat out lying about the nature of his relationship with Master Oyata and you know nothing about the seperation.

Originally Posted by Doug Daulton

However, I've never known him to be a liar. So, I suggest you back up your claims with a little fact or cease making them.

Doug,

Since Robert made the claim about Carbone "only being a seminar student", I think that the onus is on him to prove his accusation to be true, or do you have something against "challenging someones claims about themselves, their lineage, or their instructors" ?

with respect,

Neil

RobertRousselot

7th January 2006, 22:49

Doug,

Since Robert made the claim about Carbone "only being a seminar student", I think that the onus is on him to prove his accusation to be true, or do you have something against "challenging someones claims about themselves, their lineage, or their instructors" ?

with respect,

Neil

Sure. Easily done. Take out a map of the US. Find Michigan where Carbone lives and then find Kansas City where Mr. Oyata lives. Common sense and logic would point out that a daily commute to the dojo would be rather difficult.

Nadelman

7th January 2006, 22:52

That is not proof. That is geography. Please show real evidence of the fact that Carbone was only seminar student?

RobertRousselot

7th January 2006, 23:16

OK. Asked and answered. At least from Robert's end. So, unless anyone wants to add something more substantial than "you are ugly and your mother dresses you funny" ... then let's all consider the matter closed.

Well here is an email my I just got from Carbone.

Since I got nothing in the form of an answer in reply to my previous 2 emails reluctantly I wrote a third knowing full well I would have to slog through the long winded response to try and find if he actually answered my questions. Here it is.

-----Original Message-----
From: Me
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 7:31 AM
To: Peter Carbone
Subject: Re:

"When I received your email I wrote a long letter explanation of the mistakes made in your investigation
of my web site description and information about the Agena Sai."

I quoted your website and asked you questions about your claims so I fail to understand any mistake I may have made.
Could you answer my questions?

----- Original Message -----
From Carbone
To: Me
Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:20 AM
Subject: RE:

You will have to excuse my lack of participation on the internet.
I find them rude at times. I don’t like the negative dialog. or trying to degrade others.
It is always better to make friends than enemies.
It appears some people enjoy the opportunity to hurt someone’s feelings or try to discredit someone,
just because they can. It reminds me of the old ladies in Hamtramck gossiping over the fences.
I used to see them often gossiping. They would make fun of others, also.
I learned at a young age it is not good Martial Art behavior and feminine.
It is what old ladies do. I saw it with my own eyes growing up.

I think there is more to your request than meets the eye.
However,
I appreciate the opportunity to explain the Agena Sai and clarify some misunderstandings in your email.
I have done my homework over the last 46 years in the Martial Art.
Even though most people are ignorant of how weapons are crafted,
some are immature with and arrogance to learn the craft. They lack humility and respect.
They think it is possible to correctly make old style weaponry by just copying the shape.
This is a common mistake.

At no time do I ever say “Ki” in my description of energy. “Ki” or “Chi” to most people are mystical words.
I never compare the Agena Sai to any type of sword manufacturing. I know nothing about sword making.
I don’t know where you got this. Please read my description correctly.
Please do not be inventive with my wording on the web site. Don’t create your own description.
Don’t be so negative. You may learn something, even from some one who is not in karate.

It is no secret that all living things contain energy. This is a natural fact.
You can’t see air but you know it is there.
You can see objects move and see its destructive power, but it is invisible.
When I was 14 years old I learned how to see this energy coming out of the body from my uncle.
It is truly visible. I have taught hundreds, even children, how to see and feel it. It is no mystery.
No big deal. Contact the JKA and speak to the president about energy healing.
I don’t remember his name, but he has written 2 books on the subject.
While I was visiting my uncle in Chicago 1988, we stopped at the USA JKA Headquarters.
The JKA President was picking my uncle’s brain on the subject for 2 hours,
trying to get his education. I was a little bored. I was there to see Chicago.

Please read the web site description carefully.
I never say that Mr. Miyahira was the last of the Miyahira family.
I do say he was the last person in the Miyahira Family to make the Agena Sai.

It took me many trips and Okinawa to learn the technique and get it right.
Man was that EXPENSIVE ! I have been there 23 times.
I have easily spent over $1,000,000 getting my education over the years.

In 1984 I went to Okinawa and had 31 pair of Agena Sai made by both Mr. Miyahira and myself.
When I returned home Mr. Oyata, who I was studying Karate came to my house and said,
“give me a pair”. All the Sai were spoken for by my students, but he insisted he needed it.
Reluctantly, I gave him a pair.
Years later, he had them cast and is trying to sell them as authentic, but it can’t be duplicated by casting.
There is only 1 person who knows the secret.

Most people are too pragmatic and can’t see the forest for the trees.
If they can’t see it, it must not be true.
I sure 150 years ago people absolutely did not believe we could build airplanes and fly,
only the few visionaries.

1) The Agena Sai are NOT charged with energy and I never make that claim.
2) They have no energy before use. It only works during use.
It has to be held correctly for the finial to do its function.
3) The finial acts as a capacitor and transformer.
Maybe a better explanation is like a magnifying glass focuses the concentration of light energy to brilliance.

4) There are certain manufacturing processes that are known only by myself, that gives the Agena Sai the quality of being able to collect your energy and cause it to explode out of the finial.
It took me many trips to Okinawa to learn these special processes and how it works.
I was given very strict instructions never to reveal the manufacturing techniques.

I have permission to make the Sai, but unfortunately, not permission to pass the craftsmanship.
5) So, I cannot tell you too much about the Agena Sai manufacturing, except it will die with me.

6) You can probably see the energy quality with Kurlian photography. (excuse the misspelling)
I have seen many Kurlian photos of people, they become increased energy during copulation.
So, as much as most people do not want to believe an extension of energy, it clearly shows in this type of photography.
You can also see the energy standing in a dark room with a lit candle behind the subject.
It will cast a colored glow around the body.
Years ago this was a holistic doctor’s examination, so he could prescribe treatment.

There are many books on Pyramids and their dynamic energy quality that has been discovered in recent years.
7) A few years back there were pyramids discovered at the bottom East China Sea off the coast of Chatan on Okinawa.

I think it is difficult for most people to understand weaponry craft.
It was not my idea to make the Sai for the world, I was commissioned by Masters in Okinawa.
I didn’t realize it would take its toll on my body over time.
At one time I could make 10 pair at one time without a problem.
However, now it takes approximately 3 to 5 days to recuperate.

Hopefully, in the near future, I can retire from making the Agena Sai and other weapons.
There are many orders that keep coming in and I want everyone to have the best.
So, it is difficult to retire at this time but I am working toward that goal.
Currently, I am 10 weeks behind.

8) I would like to thank you for pointing out these misinterpretations you have.
It is difficult to explain things completely in an email.
I hope I did a good job. I want you to know the truth and not second guess, or see what is not there.
9) Please read carefully. We all make mistakes.
I have made many. I hope this email satisfies your curiosity and we don’t have to beat it up.
I don’t mind if someone is ignorant and wants an education.
However, I won’t play the game with the arrogance of the immature.
So, lets be friends and NOT enemies. I don’t even know you.
If you were around years ago, I don’t remember you.

10) Are you interested in purchasing a pair of “Agena Sai” or the “Agena Sai DVD”?
The sale price of the Agena Sai are on line,
http://www.weaponsconnection.com
The price of the DVD is $49 US.
The DVD contains Kihon Buri, some basic training techniques and pictorial explanation.

Sincerely,
Peter Carbone

I have left in the original 655 words at the beginning and 221 words at the end of this email that have absolutely nothing to do with the questions I asked.

1) I never said he did. The website I quoted said that.
2) Is that so…….
3) A capacitor & transformer? Really……
4) I see. So it really does “explode out the end”.
5) Understandable. :rolleyes:
6) Kurlian Photography, Reading Auras and Pyramid Power??… :rolleyes: What’s next; Mood Rings???
7) Those are not Pyramids by a long shot. They ARE structural ruins but do not even resemble Pyramids.
8) Actually I just asked questions based on two websites.
9) What a condescending jackass. Nowhere did I write any assumptions I had about his “Pyramid Power Energy Sai”. I asked him to qualify the comments made on 2 webpages, his being one of them.
10) Ah, here it is. The shameless plug to buy something. Gee, now that I know that “energy explodes out the end” I am not sure they would be safe to practice in the dojo with. I could unintentionally injure someone with that exploding energy. :rolleyes:

As I stated earlier…… “be very careful of what this guy says.”

RobertRousselot

7th January 2006, 23:19

That is not proof. That is geography. Please show real evidence of the fact that Carbone was only seminar student?

Well ya got me. :rolleyes: I can't prove that he drove down from Michigan to KC everyday for training like the rest of his regular students.

I do say it is interesting that out of ALL the stuff I have presented about Carbone you pick this paticular point to refute and not any of the more relevant things.

Nadelman

7th January 2006, 23:45

Well ya got me. I can't prove that...

Actually Robert, you haven't proven anything at all. In the end, it's all just your opinion, inuendo and heresay... No real facts. :rolleyes:

I wish you the best in your career, a long, happy, and healthy life.

With much respect,

Neil

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 00:10

Actually Robert, you haven't proven anything at all. In the end, it's all just your opinion, inuendo and heresay... No real facts. :rolleyes:

I wish you the best in your career, a long, happy, and healthy life.

With much respect,

Neil

Is that so?
Let’s just re-cap the latest events.
A) Lipski invited folks to ask questions about Carbone or the Weaponsconnection.
B) I was asked about the claims made on 2 websites related to Carbone’s “energy sai” :rolleyes: . Carbone’s own webpage being one of them.
C) Those questions went unanswered and were obviously avoid for many posts.
D) Finally I was told I should contact Carbone directly via email by you and Lipski.
E) I contact Carbone and get 3 emails from him. The first 2 emails had nothing in the way of an answer to a single question I asked. The 3rd, and longest of his diatribes, reconfirms my thoughts about not only his sai but about his claims. In all 3 emails he gave a long winded rants about various unrelated topics ranging from wine making to underwater pyramids.....all very informative :rolleyes: but hardly the information I was asking about.

I would like to thank you for pushing the issue about my original comment on this thread about being careful of what Carbone says because without your “motivation” I wouldn’t have said anything else about him nor would I have emailed him and had my ideas about him confirmed yet again.

Nadelman

8th January 2006, 00:13

Is that so?

I would like to thank you for ...and had my ideas about him confirmed yet again.

Your opinions, inuendo, and heresay.

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 00:16

Your opinions, inuendo, and heresay.

Then refute them with facts of your own investigation.

E.elemental

8th January 2006, 00:55

I really dont want to get into an argument with anyone since I dont have much knowledge to discuss the issues concerning energy and making weapons etc. In my eyes the raised question is legimate, I even enjoyed parts of it. But I feel that this is perhaps is not the easiest question to answer, using science and trying to measure the energy would in my wiew be difficult.. but I dont see the point in that either. Many things cant be proved, most of our beliefs couldnt hold in court infront of a sceptical jury. Especially when it comes to religion or faith no matter buddhist, christian or jew, its difficult to explain things so that everything makes sense to another. And sometimes even scientists disagree. :)

I really cant see the problem with Mr Carbone using the description he does about the sai, yes ask what he is reffering to but I cant see the point in doing this so enthustiastic. I am sure he isnt perfect in anyway and nobody is but this feels like an "scientific over-kill". For what purpose? I could argue with Shinto-priests, monks etc that they really cant prove everything (or anything?). For what? And here comes a little quote from a film (pretty lousy translated by me).

:Many of our most fundamental truths are depending totally in what way we choose to look upon them.

Dont really now why I wrote this (text above), but I did.

Nadelman and Robert.. Peace! :)

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 10:57

I really dont want to get into an argument with anyone since I dont have much knowledge to discuss the issues concerning energy and making weapons etc.
1) In my eyes the raised question is legimate, I even enjoyed parts of it.
2) But I feel that this is perhaps is not the easiest question to answer, using science and trying to measure the energy would in my wiew be difficult.. but I dont see the point in that either.
Many things cant be proved, most of our beliefs couldnt hold in court infront of a sceptical jury.
Especially when it comes to religion or faith no matter buddhist, christian or jew, its difficult to explain things so that everything makes sense to another. And sometimes even scientists disagree. :)

3) I really cant see the problem with Mr Carbone using the description he does about the sai,
4) yes ask what he is reffering to but I cant see the point in doing this so enthustiastic.
I am sure he isnt perfect in anyway and nobody is but this feels like an "scientific over-kill". For what purpose? I could argue with Shinto-priests, monks etc that they really cant prove everything (or anything?). For what? And here comes a little quote from a film (pretty lousy translated by me).

:Many of our most fundamental truths are depending totally in what way we choose to look upon them.

Dont really now why I wrote this (text above), but I did.

Nadelman and Robert.. Peace! :)

1) I thought it was a legit question as well.
2) The questions were not strictly about science but also about his claims and how he qualified them. To which Carbone never gave a real answer.
3) In America we call it false advertising.
4) Actually, I made one reference to Carbone where I said “be very careful of what this guy says”. I would have left it at that However, 2 individuals jumped all over my comment and sent me a PM with a statement about taking legal action. Those same individuals continued to push the issue and questioned other statements I made concerning knowledge of Carbone’s past, they made accusatory statements and claimed I trashed talked him all over the internet and made other outrageous claims and comments. (I have only made 2 comments about Carbone, here and a very brief comment about him on a forum that has been shut down. This is by far and away the longest I have discussed him anywhere) The fact is I have dealt with him in the past as we can see from Carbone’s own email. Then when I see Lipski’s invitation to ask questions about Carbone or weaponsconnection I raise some legit questions about Carbone’s own claims on his own website. Instead of answering the questions they decide to bring up stuff from other Forums about me that have no connection to the topic at hand. Not a problem since I have nothing to hide. However, it was unrelated to the thread topic. So around and around we went with them taking pot shots at my character and finally they implore me to contact Carbone directly. Then chastise me saying I didn’t email him. Which is also fine by me. I would have like to seen their faces when they saw not one but three emails Carbone replied to. All three give credence to my previous comment about being careful of what he says. Carbone obviously believes the claims I questioned on his website. Like I said, I would have been happy to drop the issue with my first comment but when someone basically calls me a liar in public I don’t take it lightly. It’s unfortunate that the individuals in question had to push the issue.
Anyway, I am done with this unless Lipski and Nadelman want to pursue it further.

Nadelman

8th January 2006, 15:09

Then refute them with facts of your own investigation.

If you make claims and accusations, the burden of proof is on you to prove them.

It is time to put up, or shut up!

With respect,

.

E.elemental

8th January 2006, 15:42

3) In America we call it false advertising.

There were many things in your reply I honest know to little about to comment on. However this one I thought I had something to say about anyway. I can assure you that swedish law has about the same view on this, and so does many other countries. Note that I only comment about the energy collecting not anything else. If many had felt tricked by this specific claim it would be a different thing, but to my knowledge anyone ordering his sai has been satisfied with them.

Many companies from all around the world use different terms when describing there products, swedish car manufacturer SAAB that also builds aircraft says that one of their cars has "jet-power" in their engines. But I havent heard anyone wanting them to prove that this really is the case, literally.

My point is that not all things (if any) is black and white. I havent seen proof of this energy collecting but Mr Carbone has always been nice and I love his sai, with or without special powers. So many many things within Budo or martial arts history cant 100 % be proved. Faith is faith and science is science.. sometimes they mix but for the most time not. Carbones sai are somewhere in the middle of belief and science since they are made of both.

Sorry.. my english are not doing me any favours in trying to explain my view so I`ll let this subject go. I think I understand your view and partially I agree, but also disagree an certain things. :)

Kind regards

Normal Guy

8th January 2006, 18:29

Mr. Lipiski,

Two observations.

1) Everyone gets your pejorative use of the diminutive "Bobby" for Robert. I asked everyone to behave like adult, not playground brats. Please heed the warning.

2) Robert may be a lot of things ... blunt, tenacious and even, on occaision, a bit of a thorn in my side. :) However, I've never known him to be a liar. So, I suggest you back up your claims with a little fact or cease making them.

Now, so it does not appear I am being biased, I would like to suggest that Robert post the source email sent to Mr. Carbone. It would help clarify exactly what questions were asked.

Regards,

Mr. Dalton,

Thank you for your comments. I have read them. Its interesting that you have finally revealed your prior association with Robert at this late stage and only after it became apparent that he was starting to dig himself into a hole based on a lack of personal knowledge. I did notice that several of your postings were leaning in one direction during this discourse and now we know why. I and others on this thread have been mislead into believing that you were a neutral moderator. Perhaps in the future you could identify any conflicts of interest, either actual or potential, in the earlier stages of a controversial thread such as this. It would be the right thing to do. I, unfortunately, will have to bow out of this thread, with all due respect, as you have now disclosed that it is not an impartial forum. Sincerely, David B. Lipski

ShawnBailey

8th January 2006, 20:56

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 21:49

If you make claims and accusations, the burden of proof is on you to prove them.

It is time to put up, or shut up!

With respect,

.

Well let’s see what we have up to now.
You insisted I write Carbone directly and asked him those questions.
I did.
You claimed I didn’t.
I coughed up the emails we exchanged. His own emails state he believes that energy explodes out the end of those sai as well as collects said energy.
Maybe you would like me to get him to sign a confession along with a video taped one.

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 21:53

There were many things in your reply I honest know to little about to comment on. However this one I thought I had something to say about anyway. I can assure you that swedish law has about the same view on this, and so does many other countries. Note that I only comment about the energy collecting not anything else. If many had felt tricked by this specific claim it would be a different thing, but to my knowledge anyone ordering his sai has been satisfied with them.

Many companies from all around the world use different terms when describing there products, swedish car manufacturer SAAB that also builds aircraft says that one of their cars has "jet-power" in their engines. But I havent heard anyone wanting them to prove that this really is the case, literally.

1) My point is that not all things (if any) is black and white. I havent seen proof of this energy collecting but Mr Carbone has always been nice and I love his sai, with or without special powers.
2) So many many things within Budo or martial arts history cant 100 % be proved. Faith is faith and science is science.. sometimes they mix but for the most time not. Carbones sai are somewhere in the middle of belief and science since they are made of both.

Sorry.. my english are not doing me any favours in trying to explain my view so I`ll let this subject go. I think I understand your view and partially I agree, but also disagree an certain things. :)

Kind regards

1) This is why I asked those questions to see how he came about having this claim. He never gave an answer.
2) True, but many of those things are not used to sell merchandise.

Normal Guy

8th January 2006, 21:59

how has he stated that he is biased? he merely stated that he has never known robert to be a liar.........blunt, yes.
it appears as if robert has come to some conclusions that arent entirely up your alley, so now, instead of ponying up info to the contrary you're going to bow out gracelessly.

Hello Shawn, thanks for posting. I did not say he stated he is biased. In fact, it is his failure to admit that possibility that presents the problem. The moderator should have disclosed his prior relationship before making his first post in the thread, much less subsequent posts, especially where the post itself leans in one direction. If you know someone well enough to stick your neck out and say that you have never known them to be a liar, then you probably know them pretty well.

Moderators are supposed to be objective and the moderator should not have a relationship with one of two parties he is moderating, or he, as a human being, will be unable to seperate his personal relationships from his arguments. He should have dropped out and asked for another to step in. Moreover, it is not the role of the moderator to step in and vouch for character, especially of one who was the first to shoot at another's character. This, in and of itself is suspicious and corrupts the thread.

It is also rather broad to say something like that because what you are really saying is that they have never and would never lie. How does one really know that? For example, I know that Mr. R. could not possibly have any first hand knowledge about Kyoshi's relationship with his teacher(s), whether it be Messrs. Oyata, Presas or Nakamoto. This is why I know he is either not telling the truth or parroting things he heard from others, regardless of their veracity. Either way, he really has no place discussing the issue as if he was there if he wasn't. But, what's done is done and each of us is entitled to our own opinion.

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 22:07

Mr. Dalton,

Thank you for your comments. I have read them.
1) Its interesting that you have finally revealed your prior association with Robert at this late stage and only after it became apparent that he was starting to dig himself into a hole based on a lack of personal knowledge.
2) I did notice that several of your postings were leaning in one direction during this discourse and now we know why.
3) I and others on this thread have been mislead into believing that you were a neutral moderator. Perhaps in the future you could identify any conflicts of interest, either actual or potential, in the earlier stages of a controversial thread such as this. It would be the right thing to do.
4) I, unfortunately, will have to bow out of this thread, with all due respect, as you have now disclosed that it is not an impartial forum. Sincerely, David B. Lipski

1) Doug knows me because I have been on E-Budo for years. As for digging myself into a hole….I think not. I posted plenty of information to support my ideas…..I have noticed on this discussion you and Nadelman have tried your darndest to attack me personally instead of the issue at hand. As for my “lack of personal knowledge” well let’s see you claimed I never had interaction with Carbone…..Carbone’s own email states I did. Basically, you assumed things you didn’t really know the answer to. I was always under the impression a good lawyer only asks questions he already knows the answer to.
2) Maybe he was commenting on the personal issues/snide comments you brought about me into the discussion.
3) He is a neutral Moderator. I am sure I give Doug a royal headache at times and his life would be easier if I was not around. However, when one side starts mudslinging, name calling, & trash talking the other side instead of staying on topic then any Moderator would have issues with them.
4) How is it impartial? Please give specific details to where you came to this conclusion.

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 22:19

Hello Shawn, thanks for posting. I did not say he stated he is biased. In fact, it is his failure to admit that possibility that presents the problem.
1) The moderator should have disclosed his prior relationship before making his first post in the thread, much less subsequent posts, especially where the post itself leans in one direction.
2) If you know someone well enough to stick your neck out and say that you have never known them to be a liar, then you probably know them pretty well.
3) Moderators are supposed to be objective and the moderator should not have a relationship with one of two parties he is moderating, or he, as a human being, will be unable to seperate his personal relationships from his arguments.
4) He should have dropped out and asked for another to step in. Moreover, it is not the role of the moderator to step in and vouch for character, especially of one who was the first to shoot at another's character. This, in and of itself is suspicious and corrupts the thread.
5) It is also rather broad to say something like that because what you are really saying is that they have never and would never lie.
6) How does one really know that? For example, I know that Mr. R. could not possibly have any first hand knowledge about Kyoshi's relationship with his teacher(s), whether it be Messrs. Oyata, Presas or Nakamoto. This is why I know he is either not telling the truth or parroting things he heard from others, regardless of their veracity. Either way, he really has no place discussing the issue as if he was there if he wasn't. But, what's done is done and each of us is entitled to our own opinion.

1) Why?
2) As I stated before, I have been on E-Budo for years so yes I am sure Doug has read one or two of my posts.
3) Give me a break. The ONLY way he knows me is threw my posts on this board….the same way he knows you.
4) Actually it is probably against the rules of E-Budo for you to call me a liar in the first place.
5) Ask him.
6) Maybe because Mr. R has been a member of Mr. Oyata’s Assoc. before and long after Carbone was.

Intersting how you said you were bowing out of this thread but are still here.

Normal Guy

8th January 2006, 22:52

1) Why?
2) As I stated before, I have been on E-Budo for years so yes I am sure Doug has read one or two of my posts.
3) Give me a break. The ONLY way he knows me is threw my posts on this board….the same way he knows you.
4) Actually it is probably against the rules of E-Budo for you to call me a liar in the first place.
5) Ask him.
6) Maybe because Mr. R has been a member of Mr. Oyata’s Assoc. before and long after Carbone was.

Intersting how you said you were bowing out of this thread but are still here.

I know, its addicting isn't it? So, tell me, Mr. Rousselot, how long have you been training with Mr. Oyata? How old are you? How long have you been in Japan. I hardly think criticizing my legal skills puts you high up on the good guy list either. Anyway, this is getting tired, but I still don't have clarity on your personal knowledge of Kyoshi's relationship with Mr. Oyata or the circumstances of his departure. I'm not really interested in what other's told you, I'm interested in what you actually witnessed. And, I don't recall saying that you never met Kyoshi Carbone, just that you are speaking out of school on his time with the organization. But, then again, meeting someone once does not really make you the authority on who they are.

But, again, this thread is really not about Mr. Oyata, who we all know is a gifted technician from a powerful lineage. This is about you making negative comments about my teacher. I was offended and I let you know. No one wants to change your mind, nor can they. But, I will not sit back and let you disparage a good man and top notch martial artist and weapons maker.

P.S. I said it was not impartial, not that is was impartial.

RobertRousselot

8th January 2006, 23:23

1) I know, its addicting isn't it? So, tell me,
2) Mr. Rousselot, how long have you been training with Mr. Oyata? How old are you? How long have you been in Japan. I hardly think criticizing my legal skills puts you high up on the good guy list either. Anyway, this is getting tired, but I still don't have clarity on your personal knowledge of Kyoshi's relationship with Mr. Oyata or the circumstances of his departure. I'm not really interested in what other's told you, I'm interested in what you actually witnessed. And, I don't recall saying that you never met Kyoshi Carbone, just that you are speaking out of school on his time with the organization. But, then again, meeting someone once does not really make you the authority on who they are.
3) But, again, this thread is really not about Mr. Oyata, who we all know is a gifted technician from a powerful lineage.
4) This is about you making negative comments about my teacher. I was offended and I let you know. No one wants to change your mind, nor can they.
5) But, I will not sit back and let you disparage a good man and top notch martial artist and weapons maker.

P.S. I said it was not impartial, not that is was impartial.

Still around…..thought you left….

1) Not really.
2) I joined his assoc. in 1979
3) It's not about me either.
4) This is about me making comments based on my past dealings with Carbone. To which I supplied not one but 3 emails asking him to clarify his comments on his website and got 3 reply emails of diatribe and basically no answer to a single question asked. Which justifies my comment “be very careful of what this guy says”.
5) Top Martial Artist? That’s a matter of opinion.

RyuKyu Dude

9th January 2006, 00:02

Hello everyone. I am new to this forum but I have been watching with great interest. I don't know anyone here or Mr. Carbone.

Here are the observations of someone who has been selling all kinds of things to people for over 55 years.

1) You guys all have really gotten off track from how this topic got started. Please re-read the first post.

2) Every post I have read on this discussion (and the other one next to this) from anyone who has been a customer of this man have had nothing but good things to say about him, his service, and his products. Nobody so far has said that they got less than what was promised or have ever returned his stuff. I am not sure but there are a lot of well known gentlemen on his web page who appear to be happy with this products too.

3) His students may seem to be a bit zealous, but that tells me something about this guy, too. Loyalty doesn't come for free, it is generally earned.

4) I have traveled the world extensively and can tell you first hand that the opinions of what Chi is and what Chi isn't and what Chi can do and what can be done with Chi are as varied as there are fish in the sea. Their are some very respectible people around the world that have made claims that seem even crazier. But just because something is hard to believe doesn't make it false. Chi is matter of belief, you either believe it or you don't. I believe that I have experience Chi, and there are plenty of people woud say I am a liar or crazy. On the same note, there are plenty of people who would say I am not.

In my lifetime, the notion of everyone having a computer in there home was science fiction, but here we are.

5) If anyone has a question about something that is posted on a product web page, they damned well have the right to ask - but for goodness sake, it is only proper and morally correct to give someone the benefit of the doubt. This seems to me to be on the level of just plain ridicule.

The man answered the questions. If you don't like the answers, don't buy his stuff, but you should stop ridiculing him, especially when everyone so far is happy with the service. That to me is the litmus test.

I am going to sleep. Good night.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 00:06

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:31

2) That was never the topic of discussion here. His claims as to what the weapons can do is.

Do you know what thread you are posting to? I started this thread to learn more about Nakamoto Kiichi, not as a discussion about what Carbone's weapons can do.

I am trying to find out more/comfirm information about Kiichi Nakamoto from Okinawa.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 00:34

Do you know what thread you are posting to? I started this thread to learn more about Nakamoto Kiichi, not as a discussion about what Carbone's weapons can do.

You then mentioned Carbone and I commented on it.....you pushed the issue to this point. This discussion WAS also on the "weaponsconnection" thread but seems to have gravitated to this one.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:34

3) Rev. Jim Jones had loyal followers too.

So does your instructor, Mr. Oyata.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:37

4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.

Your e-mails were sent anonymously, remember? It took several requests for you to clarify your identity.

Normal Guy

9th January 2006, 00:42

2) That was never the topic of discussion here. His claims as to what the weapons can do is.
3) Rev. Jim Jones had loyal followers too.
4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.
5) I was directed to ask Carbone directly….so I did. Carbone didn’t reply with an answer just a lot of lamenting about wine, pyramids and other crap…….never an answer.

6) I think you need to re-read the questions then sift threw the email and find that he didn't answer the questions asked.

I also find it ironic that you would join E-budo and make this your very first post. :rolleyes:

Robert, it seems like you are getting a little angry. I'm sorry that someone else has yet disagreed with you. I know you think that person is somehow connected to me, but I assure you I don't know who he is. Be warned though, I once read that "anger is like drinking poison and waiting for someone else to die," so be careful! There still may be others who might disagree with you, and I know how hard it must be to question one's self. Sometimes we don't like what we find when we look at ourselves.

I do have to highlight your comment that Kyoshi was "lamenting about wine, pyramids and other crap," and your implication that he was somehow similar to the Reverend Jim Jones. I'm sure you didn't mean to insult him and you had good intentions behind those comments. I wonder why e-budo is allowing you to speak in that manner?

I still can't figure out why Kyoshi Carbone lives rent free in your head. This really puzzles me, but, given that I'm a simple follower of the Reverend and as one of your other RyuTe buddies said above a "nit living in a fantasy world," its no wonder I'm baffled by your attention to this thread and Kyoshi.

Also interestingly, since your postings, especially the more insulting ones, Kyoshi has been getting flooded with emails and phone calls.

Have a good evening, although, I too may have a problem resisting this thread, as it seems we are exploring some very important issues about mankind, disagreements, confrontation and character. I hope you have learned as much as I have from this exchange. Its really been enlightening.

David Lipski

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 00:42

Your e-mails were sent anonymously, remember? It took several requests for you to clarify your identity.

*YAWN*
Again you are talking smack. Several requests? How about one.
My email was supposed to automatically sign my name.
Carbone sent me one email and I replied with my name.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:44

5) I was directed to ask Carbone directly….so I did. Carbone didn’t reply with an answer just a lot of ...:

He answered you, just not to YOUR satisfaction. So don't buy his product, move on. EVERYONE else who actually made a purchase is VERY satisfied "with him, his service and his sai".

And exactly why does he owe you an explantation anyways?

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:46

4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.

Again you are talking smack. Several requests? How about one.
My email was supposed to automatically sign my name.
Carbone sent me one email and I replied with my name

Which is it Robert, 3 requests or 1? Please make up your mind.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 00:51

1) Robert, it seems like you are getting a little angry. I'm sorry that someone else has yet disagreed with you.
I know you think that person is somehow connected to me, but I assure you I don't know who he is. Be warned though, I once read that "anger is like drinking poison and waiting for someone else to die," so be careful! There still may be others who might disagree with you, and I know how hard it must be to question one's self. Sometimes we don't like what we find when we look at ourselves.

2) I do have to highlight your comment that Kyoshi was "lamenting about wine, pyramids and other crap,"
3) and your implication that he was somehow similar to the Reverend Jim Jones. I'm sure you didn't mean to insult him and you had good intentions behind those comments. I wonder why e-budo is allowing you to speak in that manner?

3) I still can't figure out why Kyoshi Carbone lives rent free in your head. This really puzzles me, but, given that I'm a simple follower of the Reverend and
4) as one of your other RyuTe buddies said above a "nit living in a fantasy world," its no wonder I'm baffled by your attention to this thread and Kyoshi.

5) Also interestingly, since your postings, especially the more insulting ones, Kyoshi has been getting flooded with emails and phone calls.

Have a good evening, although, I too may have a problem resisting this thread, as it seems we are exploring some very important issues about mankind, disagreements, confrontation and character. I hope you have learned as much as I have from this exchange. Its really been enlightening.

David Lipski

1) Not at all, in fact I am rather enjoying watching you and Nadelman scramble around in desperation.
2) Oh dear me, yes I forgot he got directly to the point in answering the questions put to him.
3) I mentioned Jones to show that sometimes loyalty can be misguided and blind.
4) RyuTe buddies? Not sure who you are referring to.
5) Great, Hope he makes a lot of money.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 00:55

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 01:05

Which is it Robert, 3 requests or 1? Please make up your mind.

Have you even bothered to read my posts?
Let me make it a bit easier for you to understand.

Notice the dates on the emails:

EMAIL 1
Saturday, January 07, 2006 8:01 AM
Mr. Carbone,

I have a few questions for you that some of your associates seem to be unable to answer.
Maybe you can explain this to me. I found these on the internet:

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.
If you are unfamiliar with " Ki energy" then we recommend the web site below. The Ki Development Assn. has a book that explains and easily teaches one how to do Ki.

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai "charged" with ki ?
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki?

From your own website:
"The Energy Sai of Agena"
(Agena area of Gushikawa City, Okinawa)

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

In Okinawa Martial Arts History, the finest handmade Sai came from the Miyahira Family. They passed the secret technique of making the Sai to their son who continued the craft. The superb balance and shape made the Sai a perfect weapon for combat. They were the preferred choice of the Masters.

Again I have questions:
1) How does it collect my energy?
2) How does it compress it?
3) How and what does it look like when it "explodes out of the end"?
4) Is it possible to see this explosion?

REPLY 1
Saturday, January 07, 2006 10:25 AM
Dear ?,
Thank you for the email and interest in true handcrafted Okinawa weaponry.
Please identify yourself, so I know who I am replying too.

There are misunderstandings in your email. I never say some things you address.
I want to correct your mistakes and help you understand the Agena Sai.

As soon as you reply I will explain it to you the best I can by email.
It would be better to speak to you, or even better yet, visit me in Michigan.
My door is always open to serious Martial Artists wanting an education.
Many come to visit me from all over.
Spend a couple of days and we will have an interesting Martial Art study.

Thank you for your cooperation.
Peter Carbone

EMAIL 2
Saturday, January 07, 2006 11:57 AM

This is Robert Rousselot a student of Mr. Oyata.

REPLY 2
Saturday, January 07, 2006 4:10 PM
Rousselot Sensei,
I was a dedicated student of Mr. Oyata myself for 6 years.
I still stay in close contact with Amor Sensei and Wicklund Sensei.
We travel to see each other and train from time to time.

I am confused.
Due to your rudeness and insulting nature of our last experience,
I don’t know what has changed from then to now.
First time shame on you, second time shame on me.
So, you will have to excuse me if I feel skeptical of your requests.
Are there ulterior motives? I hope I am wrong.

If this is a way of apologizing for our first encounter, then I will consider it.
I am not interested in getting into a yakking contest.
There is more to the Martial Art than physically hurting some one.
You MUST respect your elders and superiors, according to my family.

My policy is, “If you don’t want the Agena Sai, I don’t want you to have it.
Please send it back and I will return your money. No questions asked.”
In all the years making the Agena Sai, no one has EVER returned them.

I’ll bet I have been perfecting the Agena Sai technique as long or longer than you have been in the Martial Art.
I made my first pair in 1973. Started Martial Art in 1960 at age 14 and serious study in 1972 and traveled to Okinawa
for the first time in 1980 and have been there 23 times and continue to go.
I have never asked for any Rank, Title or Position from anyone.
I make the best and I know it and so does everyone who has the Agena Sai.
Soon, I will retire from making the Agena Sai and become the little old wine maker.
Wine is my passion and I make the best wine, also.
I think I will have a glass after I am through writing this email.

When I received your email I wrote a long letter explanation of the mistakes made in your investigation
of my web site description and information about the Agena Sai.
If that was your intent to make me work, you were successful. I only type with 2 fingers.
I will know better next time when someone writes without giving their name.
I hope it was an honest mistake and not a rude gesture.

Even though this email may seem a little uneasy, I don’t really want to have enemies.
I would rather put everything behind and start fresh with a good relationship.
I have made many mistakes in my life. I am too old for bad feelings.
If you want a crude dialog, please don’t write again.
If you are sincere about the education of the Agena Sai I have a DVD of Kihon Buri and some training techniques,
along with a short explanation with historical relationship.
Even Hokama Sensei, PHD was interested.
He is a good friend of Mr. Oyata and requested my Agena Sai.
It is almost finished and will be sent Monday with the DVD.

Sincerely,
Peter Carbone

EMAIL 3
Saturday, January 07, 2006 9:31 PM
"When I received your email I wrote a long letter explanation of the mistakes made in your investigation
of my web site description and information about the Agena Sai."

I qouted your website and asked you questions about your claims so I fail to understand any mistake I may have made.
Could you answer my questions?

REPLY 3
Sunday, January 08, 2006 3:20 AM
You will have to excuse my lack of participation on the internet.
I find them rude at times. I don’t like the negative dialog. or trying to degrade others.
It is always better to make friends than enemies.
It appears some people enjoy the opportunity to hurt someone’s feelings or try to discredit someone,
just because they can. It reminds me of the old ladies in Hamtramck gossiping over the fences.
I used to see them often gossiping. They would make fun of others, also.
I learned at a young age it is not good Martial Art behavior and feminine.
It is what old ladies do. I saw it with my own eyes growing up.

I think there is more to your request than meets the eye.
However,
I appreciate the opportunity to explain the Agena Sai and clarify some misunderstandings in your email.
I have done my homework over the last 46 years in the Martial Art.
Even though most people are ignorant of how weapons are crafted,
some are immature with and arrogance to learn the craft. They lack humility and respect.
They think it is possible to correctly make old style weaponry by just copying the shape.
This is a common mistake.

At no time do I ever say “Ki” in my description of energy. “Ki” or “Chi” to most people are mystical words.
I never compare the Agena Sai to any type of sword manufacturing. I know nothing about sword making.
I don’t know where you got this. Please read my description correctly.
Please do not be inventive with my wording on the web site. Don’t create your own description.
Don’t be so negative. You may learn something, even from some one who is not in karate.

It is no secret that all living things contain energy. This is a natural fact.
You can’t see air but you know it is there.
You can see objects move and see its destructive power, but it is invisible.
When I was 14 years old I learned how to see this energy coming out of the body from my uncle.
It is truly visible. I have taught hundreds, even children, how to see and feel it. It is no mystery.
No big deal. Contact the JKA and speak to the president about energy healing.
I don’t remember his name, but he has written 2 books on the subject.
While I was visiting my uncle in Chicago 1988, we stopped at the USA JKA Headquarters.
The JKA President was picking my uncle’s brain on the subject for 2 hours,
trying to get his education. I was a little bored. I was there to see Chicago.

Please read the web site description carefully.
I never say that Mr. Miyahira was the last of the Miyahira family.
I do say he was the last person in the Miyahira Family to make the Agena Sai.

It took me many trips and Okinawa to learn the technique and get it right.
Man was that EXPENSIVE ! I have been there 23 times.
I have easily spent over $1,000,000 getting my education over the years.

In 1984 I went to Okinawa and had 31 pair of Agena Sai made by both Mr. Miyahira and myself.
When I returned home Mr. Oyata, who I was studying Karate came to my house and said,
“give me a pair”. All the Sai were spoken for by my students, but he insisted he needed it.
Reluctantly, I gave him a pair.
Years later, he had them cast and is trying to sell them as authentic, but it can’t be duplicated by casting.
There is only 1 person who knows the secret.

Most people are too pragmatic and can’t see the forest for the trees.
If they can’t see it, it must not be true.
I sure 150 years ago people absolutely did not believe we could build airplanes and fly,
only the few visionaries.

The Agena Sai are NOT charged with energy and I never make that claim.
They have no energy before use. It only works during use.
It has to be held correctly for the finial to do its function.
The finial acts as a capacitor and transformer.
Maybe a better explanation is like a magnifying glass focuses the concentration of light energy to brilliance.

There are certain manufacturing processes that are known only by myself, that gives the Agena Sai
the quality of being able to collect your energy and cause it to explode out of the finial.
It took me many trips to Okinawa to learn these special processes and how it works.
I was given very strict instructions never to reveal the manufacturing techniques.

I have permission to make the Sai, but unfortunately, not permission to pass the craftsmanship.
So, I cannot tell you too much about the Agena Sai manufacturing, except it will die with me.

You can probably see the energy quality with Kurlian photography. (excuse the misspelling)
I have seen many Kurlian photos of people, they become increased energy during copulation.
So, as much as most people do not want to believe an extension of energy, it clearly shows in this type of photography.
You can also see the energy standing in a dark room with a lit candle behind the subject.
It will cast a colored glow around the body.
Years ago this was a holistic doctor’s examination, so he could prescribe treatment.

There are many books on Pyramids and their dynamic energy quality that has been discovered in recent years.
A few years back there were pyramids discovered at the bottom East China Sea off the coast of Chatan on Okinawa.

I think it is difficult for most people to understand weaponry craft.
It was not my idea to make the Sai for the world, I was commissioned by Masters in Okinawa.
I didn’t realize it would take its toll on my body over time.
At one time I could make 10 pair at one time without a problem.
However, now it takes approximately 3 to 5 days to recuperate.

Hopefully, in the near future, I can retire from making the Agena Sai and other weapons.
There are many orders that keep coming in and I want everyone to have the best.
So, it is difficult to retire at this time but I am working toward that goal.
Currently, I am 10 weeks behind.

I would like to thank you for pointing out these misinterpretations you have.
It is difficult to explain things completely in an email.
I hope I did a good job. I want you to know the truth and not second guess, or see what is not there.
Please read carefully. We all make mistakes.
I have made many. I hope this email satisfies your curiosity and we don’t have to beat it up.
I don’t mind if someone is ignorant and wants an education.
However, I won’t play the game with the arrogance of the immature.
So, lets be friends and NOT enemies. I don’t even know you.
If you were around years ago, I don’t remember you.

Are you interested in purchasing a pair of “Agena Sai” or the “Agena Sai DVD”?
The sale price of the Agena Sai are on line,
http://www.weaponsconnection.com
The price of the DVD is $49 US.
The DVD contains Kihon Buri, some basic training techniques and pictorial explanation.

Sincerely,
Peter Carbone

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 01:08

He answered you, just not to YOUR satisfaction. So don't buy his product, move on. EVERYONE else who actually made a purchase is VERY satisfied "with him, his service and his sai".

And exactly why does he owe you an explantation anyways?

Seems to me you were the one that told me to write directly to him. :D

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 01:08

Have you even bothered to read my posts?

I did read your posts, this is what you wrote:

4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.

Again you are talking smack. Several requests? How about one.
My email was supposed to automatically sign my name.
Carbone sent me one email and I replied with my name

You keep contradicting yourself. Perhaps you were kicked in the head one too many times. That would explain a lot of things... :)

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 01:10

1) I did read your posts, this is what you wrote:

You keep contradicting yourself. Perhaps you were kicked in the head one too many times. That would explain a lot of things... :)

1) Obviously you didn't....because there are 2 requests.
2) Really? Where? Cut and paste my exact words.

Funny thing is you guys are the ones that suggested I contact Carbone. Then when he come back with some fairly lame emails you can't use that angle anymore so you try to knit pick......whatever. :rolleyes:

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 01:19

Seems to me you were the one that told me to write directly to him. :D

I sure did, it took a lot of time to help you get the courage, and we are all proud that you were able to finally face your fears.

And he did answered you, once you actually used your real name and told him who you were. He even extended a hand a friendship to you. It obviously went over your head. Only YOU weren't satisfied with his gesture or answers.

Seems that the problem here is with YOU, not him, since EVERYONE who has actually purchased his sai are SATISFIED with him, his service and his PRODUCTS.

Yes, we have narrowed the problem down to YOU... LOL :D

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 01:21

1) Obviously you didn't
2) Really? Where? Cut and paste my exact words.

4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.

Again you are talking smack. Several requests? How about one.
My email was supposed to automatically sign my name.
Carbone sent me one email and I replied with my name

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 01:31

My questions were:

So my questions are:
1)Exactly how are the sai "charged" with ki ? (no answer)
2) How and why does this make it easier to send ki? (no answer)

Second set of questions:
1) How does it collect my energy? (no answer)
2) How does it compress it? (no answer)
3) How and what does it look like when it "explodes out of the end"? (no answer)
4) Is it possible to see this explosion? (no answer)

Oh I see these are the answers?

Carbones Reply:

1) The Agena Sai are NOT charged with energy and I never make that claim. (see claims)
2) They have no energy before use. It only works during use.
It has to be held correctly for the finial to do its function. (doesn’t answer my #1 question)
3) The finial acts as a capacitor and transformer.
Maybe a better explanation is like a magnifying glass focuses the concentration of light energy to brilliance.

4) There are certain manufacturing processes that are known only by myself, that gives the Agena Sai the quality of being able to collect your energy and cause it to explode out of the finial.
It took me many trips to Okinawa to learn these special processes and how it works.
I was given very strict instructions never to reveal the manufacturing techniques.

I have permission to make the Sai, but unfortunately, not permission to pass the craftsmanship.
5) So, I cannot tell you too much about the Agena Sai manufacturing, except it will die with me.

6) You can probably see the energy quality with Kurlian photography. (excuse the misspelling)
I have seen many Kurlian photos of people, they become increased energy during copulation.
So, as much as most people do not want to believe an extension of energy, it clearly shows in this type of photography.
You can also see the energy standing in a dark room with a lit candle behind the subject.
It will cast a colored glow around the body.
Years ago this was a holistic doctor’s examination, so he could prescribe treatment.

There are many books on Pyramids and their dynamic energy quality that has been discovered in recent years.
7) A few years back there were pyramids discovered at the bottom East China Sea off the coast of Chatan on Okinawa.

The claims made:

The Energy Sai of Agena is designed to collect your energy, compress it and cause it to explode out of the end. Only the Agena Sai has this dynamic quality.

The Weapons Connection is a traditional Kobudo association operated by Shihan Peter Carbone. He specializes in hand making custom , traditional Okinawan weapons. The manufacturing secret of the " Energy Sai of Agena" was passed on to him by the last of the Miyahira family, known for their quality sai throughout Okinawa.
The Energy Sai is manufactured in the same fashion as the sword smiths of old . Whereas the sword or in this case the sai is charged with energy (Ki) during the manufacturing process. This allows the user to more easily send his energy (Ki) through the sai and into the target.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 01:33

1) Obviously you didn't....because there are 2 requests.
2) Really? Where? Cut and paste my exact words.

4) Which is why clarification was asked for but never received even after asking 3 times.

Again you are talking smack. Several requests? How about one.
My email was supposed to automatically sign my name.
Carbone sent me one email and I replied with my name

So which is it Robert, 3 times or 1 time? Please stop dodging the point as you always do.

Bottom line, everyone who has done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. That indeed is the litmus test. Not the opinion of some cow tipping okey from Kansas.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 01:36

1) So which is it Robert, 3 times or 1 time? Please stop dodging the point as you always do.

2) Bottom line, everyone who has done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. That indeed is the litmus test. Not the opinion of some cow tipping okey from Kansas.

1) By asking this yet again it is easy to see you aren't reading my replies.
Go up to #86 and read carefully.

2) More insults??

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 01:38

Great, Hope he makes a lot of money.

Now you are starting to finally come around. Thanks. We all appreciate the compliment.

ShawnBailey

9th January 2006, 02:02

So which is it Robert, 3 times or 1 time? Please stop dodging the point as you always do.

Bottom line, everyone who has done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. That indeed is the litmus test. Not the opinion of some cow tipping okey from Kansas.

ok....so are you calling Oyata Sensei a cow tipping okey?

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:05

No, I am calling Robert one. Mr. Oyata was from Japan?

So Shawn Bailey (Robert? are you in there? :) ), interesting that you are a new member and just decided to post today, on this thread. Hmmm, what a coincidence...

Robert: stop living vicariously through imaginary Internet identities....

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 02:05

ok....so are you calling Oyata Sensei a cow tipping okey?

Shawn,

I see your point but I wouldn't take comments like that too seriously. It's not worth the time or effort.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:07

Shawn,

I see your point but I wouldn't take comments like that too seriously. It's not worth the time or effort.

Talking to yourself???? I think that there is a name for that...

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 02:08

1) No, I am calling Robert one.
2) Mr. Oyata was from Japan?

3) So Shawn Bailey (Robert? are you in there? :) ), interesting that you are a new member and just decided to post today, on this thread. Hmmm, what a coincidence...

Robert: stop living vicariously through imaginary Internet identities....

1) I see, you you are calling me names now.
2) Mr. Oyata is from Okinawa but has lived in Kansas City for over 30 years and calls it his home
3) Any Mod feel free to check the IP Address of myself and Shawn.
After which I will expect a full apology from Nadelman.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:10

1) By asking this yet again it is easy to see you aren't reading my replies.

Robert,

You STILL haven't answered the question. Why are you being so evasive? It is very difficult to have a discussion with you when you keep bouncing around like this. Pleas re-read the posts and answer the questions...

Again, the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. That indeed is the litmus test.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 02:12

Robert,

You STILL haven't answered the question. Why are you being so evasive? It is very difficult to have a discussion with you when you keep bouncing around like this. Pleas re-read the posts and answer the questions...

Again, the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. That indeed is the litmus test.

Answered in posts #86 & #91

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:14

Rev. Jim Jones had loyal followers too.

By this test, you are placing Mr. Oyata in this category as well, since I am assuming that he has loyal followers too.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:24

Answered in posts #86 & #91

Still not answered. Just evaded Robert (Shawn?) again. Read posts 59 and 90.

Again, the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products.

Jock Armstrong

9th January 2006, 02:55

Mr Adelman, you seem to be the one avoiding answers , not accepting answers given and generally being insulting . Mr Carbone does claim on his site to harness energy [ki/chi/moonrays] in his agena sai. I would ask the mods to close this thread as it has run its course.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 02:57

1) Any Mod feel free to check the IP Address of myself and Shawn.
2) After which I will expect a full apology from Nadelman.

1 . YAWN... All you have to do is remote desktop to a second location and run it in a window. Hence, two IP address from two separate locations...LOL

2. Ok, let's make a deal, you apologise to Kyoshi Carbone and stop ridiculing him, and I'll apologise to you, Shawn, Mr. Oyata, the State of Kansas, and even the cows you tipped when you were in high school. ;)

Again the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products.

Nadelman

9th January 2006, 03:02

1) Mr Adelman, you seem to be the one avoiding answers , not accepting answers given and generally being insulting .
2) Mr Carbone does claim on his site to harness energy [ki/chi/moonrays] in his agena sai. I would ask the mods to close this thread as it has run its course.

1) What questions would that be? Can you be specific?

2) First off, no moonrays, please site where that claim was made. Let's stay factual Mr. Armstrong. Mr Carbone answered Robert R., sorry if the answer not to his liking. Seems that no answer would have been to his liking.

Again the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. including the following masters:

Kotaro Iha
Fusei Kise
Kiichi Nakamoto
Tsuguo Sakamoto
Kensho Tokumura
Angi Uezu
Seikichi Odo
Giyu Gibo
Master Higaonna
Eiko Shimabukuro
Ichiro Nakahodo
Shinsei Matsumoto
Master Miyahira
Tsuyoshi Uechi
Master Miyazato
Seikichi Iha
Kunio Uehara
Masahiro Nakamoto
Tsuneo Shimabukuro
Zenpo Shimabukuro

.

Jock Armstrong

9th January 2006, 04:11

Well Mr Adelman, thats a nice list-do you have proof such as a letter of appreciation from anyone? Mr Carbone can do as he likes-but he did state on his site that the sai are "energy charged" -he has not indicated how this happens, he merely denied that it was "ki". This thread is becoming tedious and it is obviously not going to make either party better informed or happy. Best it ends.

PS From reading your posts and mr Lipski's, I really don't like either of you. You are both snide, condescending and basically unpleasant. I won't post on this again since I think it is pointless. Goodbye .

ShawnBailey

9th January 2006, 05:10

1 . YAWN... All you have to do is remote desktop to a second location and run it in a window. Hence, two IP address from two separate locations...LOL

2. Ok, let's make a deal, you apologise to Kyoshi Carbone and stop ridiculing him, and I'll apologise to you, Shawn, Mr. Oyata, the State of Kansas, and even the cows you tipped when you were in high school. ;)

Again the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products.

well Neil, just to let you in on something....I live in Ontario, and while i do not know Robert personally, I do have a lot of respect for him and his knowledge. I have learned quite a bit from him and have even taken a few jabs myself from him over the past couple of years on the boards.
i just felt compelled to post today and could not under my other username for some reason, so i joined under a new name because i thought you were acting terribly childlike and showing disrespect to someone that obviously has a lot more knowledge than you are aware of.

RobertRousselot

9th January 2006, 06:07

1 . YAWN... All you have to do is remote desktop to a second location and run it in a window. Hence, two IP address from two separate locations...LOL

2. Ok, let's make a deal, you apologise to Kyoshi Carbone and stop ridiculing him, and I'll apologise to you, Shawn, Mr. Oyata, the State of Kansas, and even the cows you tipped when you were in high school. ;)

3) Again the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products.

1) I see. I was unaware that. So do you use that on E-Budo?
2) Actually I still tip cows….their from Kobe actually. Their great for practicing punches and kicks on. After punch a 1,500lbs cow long enough a human seems like nothing. ;)
3) I can’t ever recall my commenting on the quality of the actual product….only asking questions in reference to the claims on the maker’s website.

Doug Daulton

9th January 2006, 07:20

Mr. Dalton,

Thank you for your comments. I have read them. Its interesting that you have finally revealed your prior association with Robert at this late stage and only after it became apparent that he was starting to dig himself into a hole based on a lack of personal knowledge. I did notice that several of your postings were leaning in one direction during this discourse and now we know why. I and others on this thread have been mislead into believing that you were a neutral moderator. Perhaps in the future you could identify any conflicts of interest, either actual or potential, in the earlier stages of a controversial thread such as this. It would be the right thing to do. I, unfortunately, will have to bow out of this thread, with all due respect, as you have now disclosed that it is not an impartial forum. Sincerely, David B. Lipski

Allow me to clarify. I do NOT personally know Robert. I've never met him, much less trained with him. The sole extent of my "prior association" is within the confines of these forums. Within this context, I've know Robert to be decidely blunt, often to the point that I personally find it a bit uncomfortable.

Were you to ask Robert (or even search previous topics in these forums), you would know that I have challenged Robert in public and in private to be more tactful and polite. However, despite his sometimes aggressive approach, he is consistently fact-driven and truthful. And, sometimes the truth hurts.

Intellectual integrity requires one to be willing to have their beliefs and assumptions challenged and, more importantly, to be willing to re-evaluate these beliefs honestly when outsiders shed new light on them. When challenged, one needs to counter challenges with something more substantive than simply calling the challenger a liar.

in this case, Robert made a simple comment which you and Mr. Adelman saw fit to challenge. Rather than dismissing you both, he took the time to qualify his comments and go to considerable trouble to back up his comment. Thus far, the evidence strongly supports his case not yours. Rather than well-considered rebuttals, both you and Mr. Adelman have chosen to resort to name-calling and challenging the integrity of the messenger, rather than the message itself.

My only bias in this, or any other argument in these forums, is to ensure that the individuals involved maintain courtesy and intellectual integrity in equal measure. I’ve consistently called both sides of this argument on BOTH points.

As for my alleged bias towards Robert, you called him a liar. I offered you a historical perspective on his honesty, as I would have done for anyone who has consistently participated in these forums with integrity, if not tact.

Both you and Mr. Adelmen have less than 100 posts between you since you both joined e-Budo.com in December 2005. So, I have very little perspective on your integrity and intentions in this argument. That said, I remain open to both of you and am willing to here your side of the story, if only you’d provide it and not resort to simple name-calling and naysaying. Absent more information, I and everyone else in these forums will be likely to consider you both simple “trolls”.

In short, back up your claims or let the discussion drop.

Regards

Doug Daulton

9th January 2006, 07:55

Again the bottom line: Everyone who has ACTUALLY done business with Mr. Carbone is satisfied with him, his service, and his products. including the following masters:

Kotaro Iha
Fusei Kise
Kiichi Nakamoto
Tsuguo Sakamoto
Kensho Tokumura
Angi Uezu
Seikichi Odo
Giyu Gibo
Master Higaonna
Eiko Shimabukuro
Ichiro Nakahodo
Shinsei Matsumoto
Master Miyahira
Tsuyoshi Uechi
Master Miyazato
Seikichi Iha
Kunio Uehara
Masahiro Nakamoto
Tsuneo Shimabukuro
Zenpo ShimabukuroEVERYONE? How can you make such a claim? Do you have letters of endorsement from everyone who has ever purchased the sai in question?

Also, the fact that you've posted the names of all of these teachers here shows a decided lack of courtesy for the teachers in question. In effect, you claim to speak on their behalf. Aside from the fact that this is considerably impolite in ANY culture, it also shows a considerable lack of knowledge of Japanese and Okinawan custom.

I’ve been fortunate to train with and spend considerable time with several high-ranking Japanese and Okinawan teachers as well as a wide variety of Westerners who’ve lived in Japan or Okinawa from anywhere from 4-40 years. In addition, I’ve spent time training in Japan. Based on this experience, I would never publish such a list of “satisfied customers”, particularly with some of the high-ranking folks you’ve listed … unless each person had personally given me permission to do so and/or provided a written letter of endorsement.

I raise these points to help you understand why this line of “challenge” is pointless. At every turn, you and Mr. Lipski only further illustrate your fundamental lack of understanding of the basic principles of debate and discourse. Furthermore, your approach to defending your teacher actually works against you and Mr. Carbone. Unfortunately, you are clearly unwilling to listen to well-intentioned advice.

Good luck in your training.

Doug Daulton

9th January 2006, 07:59

This thread has deteriorated beyond redemption. As a result, I am shutting it down. In the future, I'd suggest everyone involved heed the suggestions/warnings I've issued in this thread.

1) Stay on topic (or close to relevant, naturally-occuring tangents)
2) Back up your challenges with fact
3) Refrain from name-calling.

If you cannot do these three things, you should consider not participating at all.

Best of luck in your training.

____________________
Doug Daulton

PS: I've restarted the original Kiichi Nakamoto? thread so Mr. Adelman can get his question answered. Click the link below to participate.

LINK:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=384528#post384528