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Josef
22nd December 2005, 12:32
The child is approaching her sixth birthday and I'm starting to think what martial art should she do.

Maybe six is still a bit young to start, but I certainly intend to enrol her within the next couple of years and there's no harm preparing ahead.

I suppose the main concerns are teaching her something to protect herself if attacked in later life and something to give her the confidence not to be bullied at school in the near future.

I'm not too well versed in the unarmed arts myself so would welcome some advice on a good one for a child to do.

gabro
22nd December 2005, 14:53
I always recommend judo for children. It is great training for developing general skills, great fun and can give kids a bit of a confidence boost.
Most kids enjoy rolling around on the mats with other kids.

An even better idea is for you to start doing Judo as well :)

Warning: This advice is heavily biased, as I started doing Judo at the age of eight, and never had the good sense to stop.

Cheers,

Mads

Simon Ford-Powell
22nd December 2005, 15:06
well as a jiu jitsu man myself I would also highly recommend Judo as an ideal start for kids (oh alright...I admit it, I do Judo as well)

Budd
22nd December 2005, 18:57
I'm going to also chime in support of judo (started at age 5 myself :) ) as the martial art I'd recommend for kids, based on the type of activities and the cost and availability of such programs.

I think grappling is a better activity for kids (as opposed to arts where they practice punching and kicking), as it's closer to a form of play that children seem to naturally engage in (true for puppies and kittens as well). Ukemi (falling, rolling and receiving techniques safely) will be good for their balance as well as helping if the child falls in real life.

Even better, it's usually pretty cheap (especially through something like a YMCA program) compared to some of the fees McDojos can charge for Little Ninja programs.

Good luck, though, and let us know how it turns out.

gendzwil
22nd December 2005, 19:08
Even though I teach kendo, I recommend judo for kids that young. They have lots of fun wrassling, they don't learn kicking or punching that might get them in trouble in the schoolyard if used, there's lots of variety in the techniques so they don't get bored, it's great physical conditioning and they learn how to fall properly. Judo is widely available, cheap like borscht and mostly taught by dedicated volunteers who are there because they want to be. There's nothing they learn in judo that will screw them up for another martial art later on if they decide to take a different direction.

BC
22nd December 2005, 19:52
My 6 year old son has expressed a desire to start karate, so I will likelybe enrolling him in one of two traditional Shotokan karate schools I have identified in my area. The rest of the local martial arts schools are either McDojo or sport TKD, or both. I will decide which one after observing their classes and speaking personally to the sensei.

As background, I currently practice aikido, and in the past practiced kenpo and taijiquan. I decided not to enroll my son in aikido, as I am not a big proponent of aikido for children. Not to put anything bad toward judo, but I have a friend who is a physician who stated that he thought there was too much risk for injury to children's developing joints in judo. Again, please don't take offense, as I am just reporting what one person said to me. Can anyone with experience in judo address this concern? Thanks.

Budd
22nd December 2005, 20:06
Depends on the practice -- if they're cranking the heck out of armlocks and shoulder locks, then I'd say it's unhealthy for anyone in the longterm. If the emphasis is on ukemi and jacketed wrestling, then I'd put it above most anything else as an introduction to martial arts for children. As another poster already noted, a background in judo will serve them well for future study of pretty much any other martial art (speaking from experience and a completely unbiased viewpoint ;) ).

gendzwil
22nd December 2005, 20:45
Chokes and locks aren't generally allowed in competition for young children. For example, the AAU extends the IJF rules to disallow chokes for children under 11 and locks for children under 15.

Nobody is allowed to throw with a lock, which would be the most dangerous thing to joints of any age. Most dojo show kids the locks but don't let them use them in randori.

Andrew S
23rd December 2005, 02:20
I'm a Karate and Aikido person, but I'd agree that Judo would be the most logical choice here - safety, fun and immediate practicality (I think of all the nasty falls I could have saved myself from in my childhood). Plus the gear is cheaper than kendo gear!

BomberH
23rd December 2005, 11:02
I also recommend Judo as a great activity for kids. Younger kids aren't allowed to use joint locks in randori or competition, so I wouldn't worry about joint damage.

MarkF
23rd December 2005, 12:17
I seem to have been a relative elder when I started judo (at age 12) and I admit to not being able to stop, either. As a teacher, I have had few students that young, but I have had students as young as 8 yr.

There are more injuries in judo than any other combative in judo, most of which are minor sprains and strains. Children that young do not seem to be injured nearly as often (unless you count boo-boos), but some injury can be expected, but they do tend to be minor. There are good reasons for starting judo at such a young age, and probably as many bad ones. Injuries are to be expected in childhood and the number of injuries is relative to activity. if the child is sheltered until adulthood you will keep the number down but then this is the example of those who do not belong on the mat, but it is like any number of activities in which movement produces injury. Repetitive joint injuries are not common in judo or children except in those expected to rise to a certain level, the Olympics being a prime example, particular in "women's gymnsatics (these are not women, for the most part)," ukemi is easy for a six year old to learn, and grappling is relatively easy on them compared to a child twice that age (I fractured the growth center of the ankle/foot at age 13 and was advised of the possibility of my foot not growing any more than it had up to that time. That did not come to pass even though I returned to judo more than two months before medical advice said I should. This is something that parents need to make sure does NOT happen.

Some, if not most, national junior championships in judo include kids as young as six and as old as nineteen. Emotional hurt seems to prevail well over the physical ones, in my experience. This is the worst injury in children of that age so this should probably not be an open season to sign up six year old kids but should be made on a case by case basis. A parent or other close relative with experience in budo has an advantage over those who do not have elders to look after them. This is NOT a reason to keep them off the mat, it just has obvious advantages. Pride can be a monster as well as a builder of character. While a child should be pushed to keep up with something they wanted, a good look at the situation also has merit.


Mark

JustCreepin'
24th December 2005, 05:20
I have a very, very young son (1.5 years old) but I've already been thinking of the same question. Personally, I wouldn't want something that emphasizes competition - it's too easy for kids to make things about winners/losers (as a previous post was saying). That being said, my thinking at this point is that I'd try to take my son to different classes (after checking out the schools first) and seeing if there was something he found appealing. If he's into it, it might work out better.

Like most posters, I'm biased...When I was little, I wanted to do/try/study martial arts (loved the katas and weapons), but my parents ended up signing me up to a TKD McDojo (dang Mr. Moon!). To this day (about 20 years later), the 'rents still tease me about not getting the black belt they paid for in advance (I wasn't a good block-breaker and couldn't advance - great on the forms/kata and sparring, but a failure on the blocks :( ).

But I have to say, no matter what, I still love martial arts!

jailess
24th December 2005, 18:48
There's restricted availability, but if you're near one a ShorinjiKempo dojo'd be a good place to take and train a kid. I'm biased like everyone else, but what the hell?

There's no competition in SK, and the emphasis is on training with your partner rather than against them. The cirriculum's pretty well-rounded too, teaching striking methods (Goho) and throwing/locking methods (Juho). There's also philosophy and seiho (restricted acupressure), but I don't know how much of that the kids get.

If you want to know more, go to BSKF.org and contact the webmaster.

Aside from ShorinjiKempo, my second choice would be Judo: it's widely available, kids like the rough n tumble aspect of it, and to be honest I'm a little biased against Karate/TKD - I did TKD before ShorinjiKempo, with a good instructor too, but I didn't find it gave me practical fighting ability - I didn't know what to do once an opponent got within arm's length.

Good hunting...

Mateo
28th December 2005, 01:47
Mark's advice here is stellar as well as even handed regarding an art which he has practised for so long.

My own son is in Brazilian jiujitsu. He started last year when he was 8. He has gone to a few different dojos since he was 5 and started in the goju ryu class beside our house in Osaka. The Brazilian jiujitsu class has really caught his imagination and he loves the grappling. I think it is far more about the class structure, the teacher and the number of kids of your child's size in the class than the art.

I don't train jiujitsu but am a long time practitioner of Korean hapkido so I wasn't predisposed to having him choose this art over another. It was simply the best class running in my area. But I went and watched several classes with him, asked him what he thought of the trial class, watched what was going on myself; both the activities and the way the teacher handled the kids. At this age it has to balance skills with fun. (Though we went to one "judo" class where there were literally no skills taught by the end of the class!)

The rough and tumble of jiujitsu starts mostly from the knees and concentrates on groundwork for position, not submission, in this age group so there are really no injuries other than twisted thumbs and toes. I think once you add the stand up game there is greater potential for injury.

I don't know of a judo school that advocates locks or chokes at a young age. Perhaps physicians who don't practise that art would also be unaware of that factor.

I also sometimes feel that kids who do non-contact sparring in karate (not that I would advocate hard contact sparring!) often get an unrealistic sense of what they can do. But it is great exercise and wonderful use of still flexible bodies. Any wrestling based art offers realistic feedback to the kids, doing something that they like to do at home anyway!

In terms of getting into trouble at school with what they are doing I predict the complaint that 'little johnny is pinning his friends in the school yard' is a bit more socially acceptable than if he were kicking them in the head. (As Neil quite rightly pointed out)

Just a few thoughts,

shaolin_hendrix
31st December 2005, 21:17
I'd recommend a style that will affect the child's developement. An acrobatic style like Wushu or Shaolin would be good because the child would develope flexability that they could carry with them. A style with intense training like Hung Gar would be good because it would help the child become disciplined. Sporting styles like Boxing, Muay Thai, or Judo would be good because they'd make the kid be athletic. A Philosophical style like Kyudo or Kendo would be good because they'd make the kid be more thoughtful.

Bryce

kj gotro
1st January 2006, 01:46
The atmosphere / instructor is more important
than the style.
Please consider that all styles are good. Without the proper
instruction, there will be no benefits.
Grabo mentioned earlier, enroll yourself,then
TRAIN Your Child!
_____________
john gautreaux


I am partial to an authenic Kung Fu program

MarkF
1st January 2006, 17:51
As background, I currently practice aikido, and in the past practiced kenpo and taijiquan. I decided not to enroll my son in aikido, as I am not a big proponent of aikido for children. Not to put anything bad toward judo, but I have a friend who is a physician who stated that he thought there was too much risk for injury to children's developing joints in judo. Again, please don't take offense, as I am just reporting what one person said to me. Can anyone with experience in judo address this concern?

In a thread concerning what is best for children I doubt anyone can take offense in this discussion. Don't worry about it.

However, I believe your friend, the physician, to be wrong or perhaps he simply is uninformed about the numbers or hasn't read the literature. What does he think about ballet for children? Has he also looked at the literature concerning ballet and compared it to the judo injury rate? Most parents of little girls (and some boys) push them into ballet (well, perhaps not most. The kids pretty much do all the pushing and controlling). Does he treat foot and joint injuries young ballerinas and ballerinos suffer? Has he seen the toes and hips of retired dancers? The knees and/or shoulders of old judo players? Has he actually crunched the numbers to find out if he is correct? While repetitive injury possibility is there, it is unlikely especially at such an early age just as bad feet are unlikely at the same age in dancers (toe dancing is NOT taught to females that age and male dancers do not toe dance). Not to go off on a tangent or anything, but just about any activity for children will cause injuries. No one is saying it has to be this or that, but you nailed it when you said we push what we know. As I got older, I found that the ukemi I had done, probably millions of times (well, that may be high) came in handy and continues to do so in late middle age.

Do the search, then crunch the numbers. Gotta be fair about it. At least the child isn't into motorcyle racing yet.


Mark

Garryn
2nd January 2006, 17:51
The atmosphere / instructor is more important
than the style.
Please consider that all styles are good. Without the proper
instruction, there will be no benefits.
Grabo mentioned earlier, enroll yourself,then
TRAIN Your Child!
_____________
john gautreaux


I am partial to an authenic Kung Fu program

I'd agree. Also in my experience most infant school teachers tend to be female. Also in my expeience the majority of MA instructors tend to be male.

My opinion is that a good adult martial arts instructor isn't necessarily a good instructor for children.

Go along see how the kids and instructor interact, how the instructor reacts to kids being kids.

My lads not yet 5years and has started 7*Mantis KF. seeing the instructors face when the entire group broke into a chorus of "when Santa got stuck up the chimney" was worth the class fee alone! :rolleyes: :)

Budoka 34
2nd January 2006, 18:29
I've worked with children most of my adult life.
As had been stated the instructor is as important as the art.

That said for children under ten Judo and Wushu are my first choices depending on the interests of the child.

My nephews have studied Wushu for years. They love it and have done some remarkable things.

Our Jiujitsu classes follow basic Judo kihon and the little ones (3 to 10 years) just love it. They enjoy the close contact and friendship.

Josef
2nd January 2006, 21:23
Did a little research to see what was available locally to help make a choice.

There are schools offering children only classes in Wing Chung, Aikido, Shotokan, Judo, Taekwondo all locally.

Not visited them or checked them out for the Mc Dojo factor yet.

Got to admit, I'd be a bit worried about Taekwondo and Aikido for really young children, I think when older and a bit more responsible, but surely too much concertration and self control for a 6 year old is required not to injure the opponent.

An acrobatic Kung Fu appeals to me because she's a girl and Judo cause of all the recommendations, though I'm not too sure whether a child should be taught to be competitive at all.

Thanks for the replies.

Rogier
3rd January 2006, 07:22
though I'm not too sure whether a child should be taught to be competitive at all.

Thanks for the replies.

Competition is good for children depending on how their teachers and parents deal with it.

Personally I see children benefit more from judo (at least at a young age) then arts like karate. The close contact seems to be better for them then the 'distance' arts.

kj gotro
3rd January 2006, 12:50
well boy or girl does not matter to choosing an art.
You have received many well written replies.

However,
Consider sneaky dragon or
the trickster characteristics of a monkey; even
praying mantis.

the techniques are hidden / ideal for a female -
this adds to a preconception of vulnerability
and weakness.

as you may have figured ; some
styles are more masculine in appearance
and application !
_____________
john gautreaux

maybe Kunoichi

momoyama katsu
10th January 2006, 22:40
Got to admit, I'd be a bit worried about Taekwondo and Aikido for really young children, I think when older and a bit more responsible, but surely too much concertration and self control for a 6 year old is required not to injure the opponent taekwondo you should worry about because of the mcdojangism. I would recommend Aikido because it does not have competition and teachers (at least my teacher) leave out the more dangerous techniques and taijiquan is good for the little ones as well in fact in order to realy get good at taiji you MUST start early
maybe Kunoichi I HOPE you don't know what was practiced in kunoitiziutu (or kunoichi "jitsu" *feh*) other wise you should be ashamed (lets just not go any further then that because it's not comfortable to talk about [kunoiti practices])

gr455h0pp3r
12th January 2006, 13:13
I STRONGLY suggest you put your girl in a good aikido school.

gr455h0pp3r
15th January 2006, 15:06
Your asking me?
Im not one for reading huge articles unless im really interested (no offense meant) . The kid might not understand what she is learning, but if she enjoys it, I believe it will all fall into place at the right times. She will learn how to
respond to action, get away for agressors and hopefully not have to hurt anybody, and I think that is what you want for her, yes?
Not to mention the connection with the ancient Bujutsu of Japan. It is a good gateway to japanese/asian culture (if you want that in your child).
It also promotes peace. Aswell as that when you come out of the Dojo your feeling quite good about yourself. I think these are good reasons.

P Goldsbury
15th January 2006, 15:30
My 6 year old son has expressed a desire to start karate, so I will likelybe enrolling him in one of two traditional Shotokan karate schools I have identified in my area. The rest of the local martial arts schools are either McDojo or sport TKD, or both. I will decide which one after observing their classes and speaking personally to the sensei.

As background, I currently practice aikido, and in the past practiced kenpo and taijiquan. I decided not to enroll my son in aikido, as I am not a big proponent of aikido for children. Not to put anything bad toward judo, but I have a friend who is a physician who stated that he thought there was too much risk for injury to children's developing joints in judo. Again, please don't take offense, as I am just reporting what one person said to me. Can anyone with experience in judo address this concern? Thanks.

Hello Robert,

Did Tohei Akira Sensei have children's classes in the Mid-West Aikikai?

I have heard the arguments against very young children learning aikido, on the grounds that the katame waza in aikido are not good for the joints.

Here in Hiroshima we have thriving children's classes in many of the branch dojos. I think the minimum age is around five or six. There are a lot of rough and tumble games using ukemi and I think that the kids learn some of the basic techniques. Ukemi training disguised as games, however, is the staple.

When I opened my own dojo here, a conscious decision was made not to accept children and now our youngest member is a boy in his first year of high school (aged 16). The reason was that children practising aikido need expert supervision, as much in the general teaching of young children as in the correct teaching of aikido. Since we could not offer such supervision, we decided not to hold children's classes.

gr455h0pp3r
16th January 2006, 08:19
I think you have taken my words incorrectly.
Firstly, if you think Judo is better for kids than Aikido thats ok, in many ways Judo offers alot of the same things. I think Aikido is better.
Secondly I do not think that Aikido is the "art of peace" though some may choose to translate/look at it that way. I do however, think it promotes peaceful conduct in the induvidual practicing it.
Also I feel that at en early age a Gendai system is a little less intense and offer a gateway to the old, and if the individual chooses to investigate koryu systems later he/she can.

BC
16th January 2006, 20:00
Hello Robert,

Did Tohei Akira Sensei have children's classes in the Mid-West Aikikai?

I have heard the arguments against very young children learning aikido, on the grounds that the katame waza in aikido are not good for the joints.

Here in Hiroshima we have thriving children's classes in many of the branch dojos. I think the minimum age is around five or six. There are a lot of rough and tumble games using ukemi and I think that the kids learn some of the basic techniques. Ukemi training disguised as games, however, is the staple.

When I opened my own dojo here, a conscious decision was made not to accept children and now our youngest member is a boy in his first year of high school (aged 16). The reason was that children practising aikido need expert supervision, as much in the general teaching of young children as in the correct teaching of aikido. Since we could not offer such supervision, we decided not to hold children's classes.

Yes, Tohei Sensei did have a chidren's program and it still exists. Even if I did want to enroll him in aikido, I live over 25 miles from the dojo, so it is not really condusive to bringing my son there - it's hard enough to get there often enough for myself. I have now found a good Shotokan karate dojo for my son, and am going to enroll him as soon as he shakes the cold he contracted last week. Thank you everyone for your responses.

Ekajati
20th January 2006, 20:37
I did judo at c age 6 - loved it until a fellow ?judoka decided to have one last throw on me although the teacher had called us to stop, and I wasn't expecting it... so fell badly and fractured my elbow! I rather annoyed everyone with my technique, though, which was a kind of "path of least action" one :rolleyes: .... I have fond memories of standing stock still, arms stubbornly crossed, whilst other tinies desperately (and ineffectively) tried to throw me or even just push me over - with the Sensei equally ineffectively yelling "FIGHT! FIGHT!" at me :)

[Margaret de Bethlen]

Ekajati
20th January 2006, 20:40
Oh and I forgot the important warning for anyone enrolling their kids into judo... I once indirectly caused a really bad injury to someone when I was doing judo. A friend at school asked me if I would show her a judo throw. I agreed. Almost immediately after that she went and threw another girl in the school playground (a cement courtyard) and next thing I knew this girl was hobbling around in crutches for a good few months. Good idea to explain to kids that it is only safe in the dojo on the tatami with the sensei looking on - not to do outside and never to show to other people outside of the class.

[Margaret de Bethlen]

Rob Gassin
22nd January 2006, 12:57
Several years ago, I visited a number of local Training halls with my son to choose a MA. After careful consideration, we both agreed that the local hapkido club was the most appropriate. The reasons for the decision were:

1. The chief instructor was down to earth, was not pushy and was very approachable.
2. The 2 kids' instructors were primary school teachers.
3. The kids were having fun whilst training.
4. The training was very aerobic, with little emphasis on strength.
5. There was an appropriate level of discipline.
6. The club did not get involved in competition
7. At the age of 12 - 14yrs, depending on the child's physical and emotional maturity, the club had a smooth transition from junior to adult classes.
8. The style is very varied, including elements of judo, aikido and TKD.

Within 4 months of my son joining, I had joined as well!!

My background is in Shorinji Kempo, which I still practice (MY SK dojo had no junior class).

My advise to you is that for a 6 yo, the style is not crucial, the important thing is to find a reputable style and instructor that match your expectations and that of your child. The 'vibe' must be right.

Rob Gassin
22nd January 2006, 13:06
With regards to martial arts injuries, I am not sure that anyone has actually done a scientific study comparing injuries from different styles and at what age or level these injuries occur.

A study in the mid 90's in New Zealand (Their model of health system makes such studies relatively easy) revealed that the 2 most dangerous sports are horse riding and fishing, followed (from memory) by the various codes of football (soccer - lower limbs, rugby - upper body and spine, Australian Rules - upper body and knees) followed by martial arts and basketball.

MarkF
24th January 2006, 03:13
With regards to martial arts injuries, I am not sure that anyone has actually done a scientific study comparing injuries from different styles and at what age or level these injuries occur.


Oh, yes it has been done. In fact, in one study, factoring in Judo, karate, and tae kwan do, judo led with the most injuries of any sport. Judo led because all injuries were counted, most of them being of the sprain, strain, small contusion/soft tissue injury type. Leaving out minor injuries completely, led to another study where judo was well down the list. There is one on the Aikido Journal web site concerning a rash of deaths in aikido in Japan. The cause may (or may not) surprise you.

Basically, all studies show that all active kids get injured which is simply a fact, but none of them have any duplicity in causing such injury. Kids being kids, they have booboos and fractures, concussions, and fatal injuries. Pretty much the same for everyone.

Rob Gassin
24th January 2006, 07:05
Thanks Mark,

Did a quick litterature search and this is what I came up with. Very interesting.

Med Sport Sci. 2005;48:59-73.


Martial arts injuries.

Pieter W.

School of Health Sciences, Science University of Malaysia, Kubang Kerian, Kelantan 16150, Malaysia. yshin516@yahoo.com

OBJECTIVE: To review the current evidence for the epidemiology of pediatric injuries in martial arts. DATA SOURCES: The relevant literature was searched using SPORT DISCUS (keywords: martial arts injuries, judo injuries, karate injuries, and taekwondo injuries and ProQuest (keywords: martial arts, taekwondo, karate, and judo), as well as hand searches of the reference lists. MAIN RESULTS: In general, the absolute number of injuries in girls is lower than in boys. However, when expressed relative to exposure, the injury rates of girls are higher. Injuries by body region reflect the specific techniques and rules of the martial art. The upper extremities tend to get injured more often in judo, the head and face in karate and the lower extremities in taekwondo. Activities engaged in at the time of injury included performing a kick or being thrown in judo, while punching in karate, and performing a roundhouse kick in taekwondo. Injury type tends to be martial art specific with sprains reported in judo and taekwondo and epistaxis in karate. Injury risk factors in martial arts include age, body weight and exposure. CONCLUSIONS: Preventive measures should focus on education of coaches, referees, athletes, and tournament directors. Although descriptive research should continue, analytical studies are urgently needed.

Br J Sports Med. 2005 Jan;39(1):29-33.


Injuries in martial arts: a comparison of five styles.

Zetaruk MN, Violan MA, Zurakowski D, Micheli LJ.

Children's Hospital, University of Manitoba, Canada. mzetaruk@shaw.ca <mzetaruk@shaw.ca>

OBJECTIVE: To compare five martial arts with respect to injury outcomes. METHODS: A one year retrospective cohort was studied using an injury survey. Data on 263 martial arts participants (Shotokan karate, n = 114; aikido, n = 47; tae kwon do, n = 49; kung fu, n = 39; tai chi, n = 14) were analysed. Predictor variables included age, sex, training frequency (<or=3 h/week v >3 h/week), experience (<3 years v >or=3 years), and martial art style. Outcome measures were injuries requiring time off from training, major injuries (>or=7 days off), multiple injuries (>or=3), body region, and type of injury. Logistic regression was used to determine odds ratios (OR) and confidence intervals (CI). Fisher's exact test was used for comparisons between styles, with a Bonferroni correction for multiple comparisons. RESULTS: The rate of injuries, expressed as percentage of participants sustaining an injury that required time off training a year, varied according to style: 59% tae kwon do, 51% aikido, 38% kung fu, 30% karate, and 14% tai chi. There was a threefold increased risk of injury and multiple injury in tae kwon do than karate (p<0.001). Subjects >or=18 years of age were at greater risk of injury than younger ones (p<0.05; OR 3.95; CI 1.48 to 9.52). Martial artists with at least three years experience were twice as likely to sustain injury than less experienced students (p<0.005; OR 2.46; CI 1.51 to 4.02). Training >3 h/week was also a significant predictor of injury (p<0.05; OR 1.85; CI 1.13 to 3.05). Compared with karate, the risks of head/neck injury, upper extremity injury, and soft tissue injury were all higher in aikido (p<0.005), and the risks of head/neck, groin, and upper and lower extremity injuries were higher in tae kwon do (p<0.001). No sex differences were found for any of the outcomes studied. CONCLUSIONS: There is a higher rate of injury in tae kwon do than Shotokan karate. Different martial arts have significantly different types and distribution of injuries. Martial arts appear to be safe for young athletes, particularly those at beginner or intermediate levels.

MarkF
26th January 2006, 06:48
Hi, Robert,

Thank you for actually using the journals. I found pretty much the same thing, the differences are slight and basically, point to the conclusions reached in the two you posted. After doing it yourself, you tire of doing the research for others, but if this continues, I'll post others, if the participants in this thread have further interest. What you have posted is pretty much what I found. Others have posted a few by individuals on behalf of educational institutions and governmental bodies as well. A search of E-budo for them should reveal some of them done in the past.

Never write off something on which taxpayers money may be spent. I have found this to be true in the US of almost everything the mind can imagine.;)


Mark

Garryn
26th January 2006, 10:51
So basically

1. Find a class (whatever style) that your kids enjoy

2. Expect that at some time they will sustain some kind of injury because they're kids and you can't wrap them in cotton wool for ever.

3. If they stop enjoying it, let them stop or find a different class, its their interest/pastime

MarkF
27th January 2006, 14:33
3. If they stop enjoying it, let them stop or find a different class, its their interest/pastime


Well, yes and no. If you do allow your child to choose, then it falls to the parent to find the best teacher. And, it isn't always the most talented person who is the best teacher. I am the perfect example of this. I always seemed to excel at teaching, be it music, English as a Second Language, or Judo, but my twenty plus years of competitive Judo were so-so, If I am going to be honest, though I had my moments (everyone has one or two very special moments ingrained on the mind which makes the hair on the back of the neck stand at attention).

At the age being discussed a first posted in this thread, children will change interests as most of us change underwear or dogi, if not more often. At six, I watched my own son, then my nephew go through the "I want everything" phaze. Spoiling the child is not the answer, IMO, the must learn that the things they choose are not for this month only, and whatever the child chooses, has consequences and s/he must do *everything* involved in that particular activity including the things they do not like, as well. Forcing the child to do something is not what I mean. Allow him to choose, then force the child to do the things involved in what he chooses and not be allowedt to back out because he did not anticipate the work involved to be a better person. At the first sign of difficulty for him, s/he will want to quit. Once s/he has kept his end of the bargain and spent the required number of years to understand what s/he is doing, only then should the child be allowed to move on. There are exceptions, of course, but generally, life is not fair and s/he must learn that as early as possible so his later years of study in other things will not surprise the child or the parents.

That is my opinion, about two cents worth, anyway.


Mark

Garryn
27th January 2006, 14:54
I was trying to compare what my childs experience would be in relation to my own. Until I tried a club/style I didn't know what was involved. I tried several possibilities over a period of time before finally settling. I am still looking for others to complement what I now do.
My eldest is 5 and has been doing preying mantis for a few months. He has suddenly decided that he doesn't want to go to the club any more as he is the youngest there. I could keep taking him back, but I believe it may be better to humour him and let him have happy memories of his time there. I believe this is more likely to entice him back when his age doesn't alienate him quite so much.
He's already said 'daddys going to find him a class more his age'. Might be a bit easier if he grows a bit first.


One thing I think this may illustrate is that entering into a contract for a childs training may not be advisable (I didn't)

Victor Smith
6th February 2006, 03:37
If I may offer a comment or two.

First I've only taught youth (ages 7-20 in combined class) Isshinryu for the past 27 years. I don't teach games only the same karate I train with the adults who train with me.

Teaching through the Boys and Girls Club the youngest they can join is age 7. Even at that advanced age, once the initial fascination of studying karate wears off, to stay with it requires they have a personal interest.

If they don't have their own interest in the study, they are better off doing something they are interested in. Karate is not one wit better than any other youth activity, and the range of activites that exist is because of the variety of human interest.

There is realistlically no difference between teaching youth or adults. Everyone always learns and retains at their own pace. The difference between adults and youth is that the youth cannot make their own decisions. They can't choose to come to class if their parents want to go someplace else, for example.

Because of this lack of choice and my instance that they only train with us part time (only offering two classes a week) they tend to take an average 7 to 9 years training to reach sho-dan. By then they're started to grow into their adult bodies, the beginning of their adult strength, and they can consciously choose to continue on into their training on their own merits.

For younger children I never recommend any type of martial training. Instead I suggest they attend the superior movement development activities I've found. I always recommend a beginning dance program (I did so with my own son at 5 and 6), or beginning swimming (far more important to learn how not to drown than to strike) or the youth soccer leagues (running is the greatest youth activity). I find they are superior ways to prepare young people for later life choices in training, building a wider range of skills at an intelligent pace.

I realize this isn't a popular approach with those who teach for a living, but there is a solid method to my approach. For one thing, I've discovered in over 90% of the people I've seen, if a student quits training in one art, it is almost astronamically impossible for them to switch arts later and succeed. I have seen two cases in 33 years, but on the whole, whatever path you initially take sets into ones nervous system, and it's unlikely a different path later will ever feel right and they will just stop again.

BTW this isn't a kid issue, it's the issue I've seen many times in many ages of people. To sincerely switch training after stopping, only the rare person really can get over the wrong feel factor. There is also another component, learning how to quit, how to stop, makes it much easie the next time something occurs to set training aside again, and there after become a self fulfilling activity.

I don't suggest its impossible, I have seen two cases where people beat those odds, but that's all I've seen hanging around as an istructor for 27 years.

Just the view from my vantage point.

tonpo
8th February 2006, 21:04
wow, very interesting thread to make a return to e-budo on after years long absence lol.

but i couldn't help but put in my two cents as well, being a father too. Though my daughter is only 3, I am looking forward to enrolling her in a school when I deem she is ready. From my pov, though children can be as smart (if not smarter at times)than adults. And tend to absorb new knowledge like a sponge better than adults, we can't forget they are still kids as well. As smart as they are, as eager as they are, a lot of the times they still have the traits that we all had at their age: impulsiveness, a million and one interests that change w/ the wind, and the habit of quitting things that pose a challenge.

At the ages we are discussing, children dont have enough information to form a rational, informed decision about which martial art they wish to take. That is why the burden of choosing the right school for them falls on us. If a parent puts their child in a class where there are no other children, thats one thing, because children need other children to look to and grow with. But if you enroll your child in a class that has everything that you deem would make the child happy, and all of a sudden they grow bored with it, or for some reason wish to stop training, i believe that is not a sufficient enough excuse to allow them to quit and move. Though we chose the art for them, if they showed any interest, as much as it hurts us to do so, we must make them see it through, at least until the point that they have enough MA experience to choose for themselves.

Even as adults, in our own martial arts worlds, how many times have we all thought about giving up (even those that love their art)? After the millionth time of performing the same kata/drill/form...after the millionth time doing the same swing/block/thrust of your bo/katana/bokken/jo, etc. Even the most zealous of us have thought "whats the point" or "god i dont want to do this anymore" at least in passing if not serious thought. But we continue, because it is worth while, and for the most of us, we are happy that we continued, because we overcame a hurdle, and we saw something through. That lesson should not be sheltered from a child.

We have to remember as parents, that the foundations that we lay now, while they are young, will determine what type of adult they will become. If you change them schools everytime they want to quit, for WHATEVER reason, that lays the foundation later on that they will think its ok when the going gets tough, to just up and leave...and they will never learn the other part of that saying: the tough get going. They will think its ok to drop something worthwhile "just because". But if you keep them in there, though they might hate you at the moment, though they might want to land those punches/throws/locks on you in their mind, for making them do something they dont want to do...later on, they will thank you, for making them stick it out.

I believe being a parent comes first...and being a friend only comes when being a parent is done with. Fine with me if my kid hates me, because im making her do something she doesnt want to do, so what im not her friend for the next week/month....but im being a PARENT in that im teaching her lessons that she will take w/ her the rest of her life.

someone mentioned it already, but why not train them on your own until they are old enough to choose for themselves? set aside 30 min a day at first and teach basics, and so on and so on...itll bring u closer to your children, and give you pride in their accomplishments, because youll see it every day. Dont forget that this is how martial arts were passed down a lot of the time..from parent to child, theres nothing wrong w/ it...and you especially would have nothing but your childs well being in mind.

my daughter at 3 has already shown interest in MA. When i do my taiji/bagua forms she tries to mimick me. and lately since i began shinkendo, when i practice at home w/ my bokken, she grabs her little plastic sword and does the same. i look forward to teaching her until she is ready to pick a school of her own, or at least take part in the choice made for her.

dont let them quit w/out a good enough reason...

Garryn
8th February 2006, 22:35
How many of us as adults tried a few different schools/arts before settling on the one you're doing now?
Did you think you'd stop with the first club you went to?

My 5 year old boy has stopped his kung fu. I could see he would want to and the reasons why before he did. He has good memories and in a year or so I may broach the subject again, unless he does first.

How many instructors want kids that don't want to be there?

tonpo
9th February 2006, 20:27
ahh, but sampling schools, to choose whats write for you, and quitting because of difficulty or just unexplained boredom are two very different things.

and if a child is raised properly, it won't matter if inside he doesnt want to continue or challenge him or herself, they should be well mannered enough to not let that show to their instructor and fellow students.

Garryn
9th February 2006, 21:07
As a kid I expressed an interest in fishing, my fathers sport. He went every week. I was provided with rod and reel and accompanied him on a regular basis, fun at first.

Long after I'd expressed the fact I no longer wanted to go, I was still taken along. If I'd been allowed to go leave it for a while I may have returned at a later date.

When the opportunity arrived to dump the pastime I took it wholeheartedly and never returned

The memories I have now are of arguments and trying to come up with a new excuse why I couldn't go.

I don't want my childs lesson to be "don't show an interest in anything 'cos you'll be stuck doing it"

(Don't quite know if we're completely at odds or just on slightly different tracks Tonpo. Parenting can be a hotter topic than Konigun!)