good seiza

[Takeso]

Hello

Happy new year to every one.

i would like to know how to stay in seiza for long periods of time.
i try but only keeo for 1o minutes nore or less.

would some one tell about how to deal with it?

thanks and blessings.

[A. Bakken]

It takes some time to get used to seiza for most people, but rest assured, it *will* get easier over time if you train regularly. If you want to specifically improve your seiza endurance, you could do seiza "intervals": Sit in seiza for x minutes (say, 75% of what you could maximally endure without break), take a break for y minutes (y being equal to or lower than x), and repeat as many times as you can. Be careful - don't try to get up rapidly if you've been sitting in seiza for a long time. If your legs have fallen asleep, you could easily have a rather ungracious accident.

[GTO]

It's simply a matter of doing it often enough. When I started martial art, I couldn't do five minutes of seiza without my legs hurting and falling asleep. I've worked my way up to a bit over a half hour at a time since then.

[Tim Mailloux]

it's simple...practice.

What I tell all the new students at ou dojo to do it to ease into it. Try to spend a little bit of time every day in seiza. I ussually recomend spending some time in seiza while watching TV and gradually build up the time you stay in seiza. Give it a month and you should be able to dramaticlly increase the amount of time you can sit in seiza.

[Brian Owens]

I agree, the most important aspect is practice. Build up to it a little at a time.

Keeping your upper leg muscles long and supple will also keep you from over-stressing your knees.

Another thing is to make sure your posture is correct. Don't simply drop down and sit on your heels.

Proper seiza, as I have been taught at least, requires the feet to be rotated outward before sitting completely down, so that you're sitting more on the bottoms of your feet and not so much on the heels.

HTH.

[Takeso]

thanks , i'll try. i apresiate all your sugestions.

blessings to all.

[louroberto]

does anyone have a problem with seiza and their sciatic nerve. If so what can you do to prevent this.

[Brian Owens]

does anyone have a problem with seiza and their sciatic nerve. If so what can you do to prevent this.
The sciatic nerve is the largest peripheral nerve in the body, about the diameter of your little finger. In a significant percentage of the population, instead of running between the piriformis and gemellis muscles, it runs through the piriformis and is therefor very susceptable to inflammation from irritation.

Sciatica can be caused my misalignment of the vertebra in the lower back, or by muscle strain or imbalance in that region. (This is "true sciatica.")

It can also be caused by problems affecting the nerve after it has left the spine and trunk and is in the leg(s). (This may be referred to as "psuedosciatica.") A related, but more localized, condition is piriformis syndrome.

Differential diagnosis/evaluation is by a proceedure called Laseque's Test, and can be done by a doctor, physical therapist, massage therapist, etc.

Prevention is the best cure. Proper stretching of the muscles of the upper leg and lower back can be a tremendous help. Getting adequate "recovery time" between workouts, drinking plenty of water, and eating a wide-variety diet with plenty of whole grains and fruits are also important.

Once a flare-up has occurred, there are many treatments that can provide relief.

Again, stretching -- either active stretching on your own, or passive stretching by a healthcare provider -- can be very helpful. One stretching routine that I used succesfully on many of my clients was a "pin & stretch" of the piriformis muscle. It works because a tight piriformis can compress the sciatic nerve. This P&S works as follows: with the client laying facedown, the affected leg is bent at the knee and rotated medially (the foot is moved toward the mid-line). With the heel of one hand I press against the client's piriformis and hold it pinned against the undelying structures, and with the other hand I rotate the leg laterally to the point of light resistance and then hold it for several seconds. I then repeat the proceedure, moving the pinning point slightly each time to stretch the entire length of the muscle from origin to insertion.

Use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatories such as aspirin or ibuprofin may also be indicated in the short term.

Follow-on care involves continuing the prevention and treatment routines, and learning proper body mechanics to minimize recurrances.

HTH.

[rottunpunk]

ive never found seiza to be a problem (unless my knees having a pooh day)

if you are sitting in seiza for a reason other that doin a form (e.g watching a technique) try sitting with you feet folded inwards (like a judo seiza) its cheating but less straining than proper seiza.

the best fun is when you start doing tate-hiza waza, and have to practice sitting like that- mmnn tasty.
:p

[Brian Owens]

...try sitting with you feet folded inwards (like a judo seiza) its cheating but less straining than proper seiza.
If by "feet folded inwards" you mean heels rotated out so you're sitting more on the insides of your feet than on the heels, then I would say that is proper seiza.

If, on the other hand, you mean heels rotated in, so that the feet are parallel, I find that more straining than proper seiza. But that may only be because I've been doing it for a while.

[rottunpunk]

i meant heels sticking out so you sit on the inside of the foot. one foot is crossed over the other.

good seisa to me is where you dont rest on the heels or rest of foot at all-there is a slight gap between the bum and feet, the feet are not crossed over eachother, heels kind of face outwards, but they are more vertical than my cheating/resting seiza, there is tension in the thighs and buttocks. hara is forward, shoulders relaxed (with the shoulder blades puhed in and down. chin in. the back should be the shape of a bokken if placed cutting edge intowards the body and hung vertical pointy edge down.

there is always tension, (though in a relaxed way) to avoid slumping. then when moving into the cut rise up bum and hara first to avoid leaning forward with the upperbody

hope this clears up my previous post a bit
:p

[Brian Owens]

i meant heels sticking out so you sit on the inside of the foot. one foot is crossed over the other.

...hope this clears up my previous post a bit.
It does.

It's interesting to me that what passes in many Budo for "good seiza" really isn't, AFAIK.

Seiza, "correct sitting," as practiced in Tea Ceremony and other arts, and as deveopled by the Ogasawara Ryu, seems much more relaxed than the "tensed-and-ready-to-go" kneeling that I see in many iai dojo.

It's relaxed, and yet with good posture; steady, and yet one can move in and out of it smoothly (with practice).

As far as tatehiza, I'd like to know who the sadist was in Tosa that came up with that one!

[rottunpunk]

am i wierdly built? that doesnt hurt either.
its the kneely downy then standy up bits at the end of the waza that does me knee in.

think my seiza is correct though, or atleast my back shape, iwata sensei was showing the differences between mine and a portly computer necked guy

the way i see it, is that when doing waza, i shpould be in a ready to go position as im being attacked etc. hence the tension in the thighs. when kneeling normally, i shift to the above foot position and slouch, as its more comfy.
:p

[gmanry]

I also do not find tatehiza to be particularly difficult. Perhaps I am just fortunate. The only place where I have a tremendous amount of trouble is with tanashita from the oku iai waza and that is mostly with the movement on one knee, not tatehiza. Just not coordinated with the movement yet.

Having flexible ankles and finding the right place for your buttocks on your left sole seems to be the key to a comfortable tatehiza session. Also, tucking the right foot firmly and keeping a small footprint over all on the ground helps tremendously.

Crossing the feet in seiza does make a difference for periods of long sitting. I find that my legs go dead at about 35 minutes now. I can stave this off by subtley shifting my weight and wiggling my toes, particularly the big one.

[gendzwil]

Brian, I find sitting on the insides of my feet more painful than sitting on the heels. Most of the kendo sensei from Japan that I meet sit on their heels. So I'd say your blanket statement that this is not proper is an incorrect generalisation.

[Chidokan]

I find tate hiza quite comfortable, and often sit on the floor like this to watch tv....although I prefer the version they have for TSKSR as its quicker to move from...

[jest]

I find tate hiza quite comfortable, and often sit on the floor like this to watch tv....although I prefer the version they have for TSKSR as its quicker to move from...

Do you mean iai goshi?

[Brian Owens]

Brian, I find sitting on the insides of my feet more painful than sitting on the heels. Most of the kendo sensei from Japan that I meet sit on their heels. So I'd say your blanket statement that this is not proper is an incorrect generalisation.
It depends on how you define "proper."

Seiza was formalized by the Ogasawara family, the "Emily Posts" and "Miss Manners" of their day. It was intended to be used when sitting on tatami in a formal setting.

The adaptations made by Budoka to allow it to be used on a hard floor may indeed make it more practical and comfortable in that application, but it's not -- strictly speaking -- "proper" seiza.

[rottunpunk]

Do you mean iai goshi?

not quite.
its used in mjer eishin and seated okuden sections,
its like iai gosh, but you have no armour so you sit on the left foot, and the right foot is tucked in infront.
:p

[Brian Owens]

I find tate hiza quite comfortable, and often sit on the floor like this to watch tv....although I prefer the version they have for TSKSR as its quicker to move from...

Do you mean iai goshi?

not quite.
its used in mjer eishin and seated okuden sections,
its like iai gosh, but you have no armour so you sit on the left foot, and the right foot is tucked in infront.
:p
Huh?

Please excuse me if this question sounds ignorant, Ms. Bell, but I'm not a MJER practitioner;

but I thought the Okuden Suwariwaza of MJER (Kasumi, Sunegakoi, Shihogiri, Tozume, Towaki, Tanashita, Ryozume, and Torabashiri) were initiated from tatehiza, whereas TSKSR seated iai (at least at the entry level) uses iaigoshi.

Am I mistaken about MJER? And if the TSKSR position Chidokan refers to isn't iaigoshi, then what is it?

[Tim Mailloux]

[QUOTE=Brian Owens]Huh?



but I thought the Okuden Suwariwaza of MJER (Kasumi, Sunegakoi, Shihogiri, Tozume, Towaki, Tanashita, Ryozume, and Torabashiri) were initiated from tatehiza, whereas TSKSR seated iai (at least at the entry level) uses iaigoshi.
QUOTE]

I practice MSR, and I am very familiar with tatehiza. But could someone explain the difference between tatehiza and iaigoshi?

Sorry for the thread drift.

[Brian Owens]

...could someone explain the difference between tatehiza and iaigoshi?
TSKSR uses the term differently from, say, Kendo or some other arts I think.

As I understand it (and I'm not a member of the ryu), TSKSR iaigoshi is assumed thus:

From a standing position, step forward with your right leg, then kneel down on your left knee.

Your right foot is slightly in front of your left foot so that you are in what looks sort of like an angled seiza, but your right knee doesn't touch the floor.

70% of your weight is on the ball of the left foot, and 30% on the ball of the right foot.

It's easier for me to do it than to explain it, but I hope that gets it across.

[Brian Owens]

I don't have a scanner, but if anyone does there is a good side-by-side comparison of iaigoshi, tatehiza, and seiza on page 51 of Warner's and Draeger's Japanese Swordsmanship: Technique and Practice.

Here's what little they say about it:

...iaigoshi, a low crouching posture taken with the right knee raised and with both feet well under the buttocks.

Not particularly descriptive, I know. A picture is definitely worth a thousand words here.

[yoj]

http://ejmas.com/tin/tinmisc01/DeaverIaigoshi.jpg

[Brian Owens]

Ah, thanks Yoj.

Now, picture that under the hakama his right foreleg is angled back toward his left foot, and he's sitting on both heels (and the feet are not stretched out as in seiza, but on the balls of the feet with the toes curled forward).

[Andy Watson]

I find the best way to get into and get used to seiza is to do it correctly as one is about to do a kata.

1. Once the feet are flattened, slowly lower the hips down.
2. Don't bend the trunk forwards but keep the back vertical.
3. Sit back in the posture and relax.

The last bit I think is the key. The more you rock forward to take the pain off the worse it gets. Better to sit back and relax onto the feet.

[Chidokan]

Brian, from iai goshi as you know it, flatten the left foot so the top is on the floor. The right knee comes higher as you would expect, the hands drop into the lap.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Man, I'd love to be able to do iai-goshi rather than tatehiza! Have to ask Sensei if I can substitute to keep my bad knee from acting up.

[hyaku]

http://ejmas.com/tin/tinmisc01/DeaverIaigoshi.jpg

But isn't this tate hiza on the toes with the back foot up?

[Ken-Hawaii]

Not in MJER (or Seitei Iai) as I've been taught.

Tatehiza is similar, but you're sitting on the side of your left foot, with your right foot tucked against your left leg. Why that position worked for yoroi-wearing samurai sure beats the heck out of me! Most of the people I've seen look like weeble-wobbles!! :p

[hyaku]

Not in MJER (or Seitei Iai) as I've been taught.

Tatehiza is similar, but you're sitting on the side of your left foot, with your right foot tucked against your left leg. Why that position worked for yoroi-wearing samurai sure beats the heck out of me! Most of the people I've seen look like weeble-wobbles!! :p

But I think this is what the picture shows and it is not representative of MJER.

The thing is generally no one sits in seiza or tatehiza outside. Tate hiza with the back foot raised is used outside and is the way one does it in a lot of old ryu. Getting up from seiza wearing yoroi is a "non starter".

I respect the theory of being able to draw from seiza if the need arises. But to a lot of teachers it is just a fundamental posture to educate one to use the hips. As the basic of all budo is in repetitive fundamentals some spend a lifetime and do little else.

As I said before I don't even consider seiza in relationship to iai. I am far more concerned that I need to sit like this for long periods at a funeral and do weekly buddhist services. Ogasawara Soke says the legs should be strong enough to support the body and apply little pressure to the feet.

Apart from problems of sitting like this or on chairs to damages the joints I am wondering if this determines the body shape? Undoubtedly Japanese kids have squarish heads because their mothers put them on the floor and don't turn them (Doctors say).

[Brian Owens]

But I think this is what the picture shows and it is not representative of MJER.
You are correct.

This is not MJER tatehiza pictured, it's TSKSR iaigoshi.

One big difference between the two is that in iaigoshi the right foot is under the right leg, whereas in tatehiza the right foot is over by the left knee.

Viewed from behind, in iaigoshi you can see the soles of both feet; not so in tatehiza.

[Brian Owens]

Brian, from iai goshi as you know it, flatten the left foot so the top is on the floor. The right knee comes higher as you would expect, the hands drop into the lap.
If you mean to move from iaigoshi into tatehiza then you'd also need to bring the right foot out from under the right leg and move it over by the left knee.

To me, iaigoshi is almost like partial seiza, whereas tatehiza is almost like a half-Lotus. Not exactly either, of course, but it's one way to visualize it.

[Brian Owens]

...Ogasawara Soke says the legs should be strong enough to support the body and apply little pressure to the feet.
Colin,

I've seen you mention Ogasawara Soke before, but forgot to ask; are you doing Ogasawara Ryu ettiquette, Ogasawara Ryu yabusame, and/or something else?

[hyaku]

Colin,

I've seen you mention Ogasawara Soke before, but forgot to ask; are you doing Ogasawara Ryu ettiquette, Ogasawara Ryu yabusame, and/or something else?

Yes we go to him for lessons sometimes. HNIR use the same ettiquette as the connection goes way back.

[ScottUK]

As far as tatehiza, I'd like to know who the sadist was in Tosa that came up with that one!Being a, er, heavier guy, I liken seiza to crucifixion.

However, tatehiza I quite enjoy now I've got the hang of it... :D

[Andy Watson]

Being a, er, heavier guy, I liken seiza to crucifixion.

However, tatehiza I quite enjoy now I've got the hang of it... :D

Oh yeah? Sez who? I'll be the fricking judge of that at the AGM!!!!

:p