What jujutsu ryu started it all?

[Jerry Johnson]

I have often wondered with the jumping on bandwagons that go on in the martial arts if Daito ryu is really the most influential jujutsu? What about Takenouchi ryu?

I figure Daito ryu is new to the international martial arts scene. It hasn't become a house hold name but within the last 10 years. I have read it wasn't even officially practice on foreign soil until about 1990. I also read it was kept hidden from the Japanese until mid 1900's. In contrast, jujutsu like Takenouchi ryu was popular in America in early 1900. From what I have been told ryu's like Takenouchi was open to the Japanese public and practice for many centuries before the opening of Daito ryu.

Does any one agree Daito ryu, as fine of an art and ryu it is, is getting undo credit as the parent of jujutsu? I think many of what people practice today isn't Daito ryu derived, but rather of another jujutsu ryu.

[Edited by Jerry Johnson on 12-01-2000 at 12:09 PM]

[Jerry Johnson]

I hope I don't sound like a troll or flaming Daito ryu. I have just seen in my travels and experince in jujutsu that there maybe other jujutsu ryu that may have been more influencial on jujutsu ryus and hybrids. I am wondering if any one agrees?

[Ron Tisdale]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that Daito ryu is the parent art of most jujutsu. Daito ryu is specifically the parent art of Aikido. There are many jujutsu ryu, and sogo bujutsu (complete arts) that include jujutsu/yawara that have nothing to do with Daito ryu.

One thing that is often stressed in Daito ryu is the use of aiki. Some feel that that use is different than in other arts, some don't. I think that the point is debatable, and possibly somewhat moot.

The popularity of Daito ryu is due in main to the popularity of aikido, not jujutsu in general, in my opinion. This popularity has generated a certain amount of frauds. Oh well, take the good with the bad....

YMMV
Ron Tisdale

[Jerry Johnson]

I was told that Danzan ryu is from Daito ryu. I agree there are arts not related to Daito ryu. Though it has been my experience the term jujutsu now brings to mind Daito ryu as jujutsu.

I don't know about the aiki concept. That itself brings to mind Aikido. Years ago ki /aiki was only thought of in Aikido. Then no one knew about Daito ryu "aikijujutsu". In your opinion is this also happening to the term jujutsu where we no longer think of jujutsu having another source other then Daito ryu?

I don't know why my question is showing up twice? But also read that one too.

[Ron Tisdale]

In your opinion is this also happening to the term jujutsu where we no longer think of jujutsu having another source other then Daito ryu?



Nope, I don't think that is happening. There are actually quite a few sources now for good information on koryu arts, jujutsu, etc. More than I ever knew about before the last 2 years or so. Good info, from people inside the tradition, and more opportunity to gain exposure (if not consistant training) than ever before. Personally, I no longer see good reason to be uninformed, if this is an area of interest.

Ron Tisdale

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

As most of you may know, Daito ryu claims to have been passed down from a well known Samurai named Yoshimitsu Shinra Saburo Minamoto of Teseiwagenji han, approximately 900 years ago. Takeda Tokimune Soke states that Daito ryu comes from "Tegoi" (the supposed root of Sumo), a legendary art developed by the gods of ancient times, and that Daito ryu was actually founded by the Emperor Seiwa (850-881).

If you believe this, then it is not unreasonable to claim that Daito ryu is one if not the oldest ryu-ha of any kind extant, and as a result the major influence on other Jujutsu based ryu-ha. However, a search of what records and history is available for review has cast a multitude of areas for doubt and concern regarding this claim, to the point where there is a strong case to contest that Daito ryu was at least massively restructured, if not founded, in the Meiji period (late 1800's).

When it comes down to it, any art no matter how recent can claim roots as far back as cavemen and the "time of the Gods", or at least ancient moutain Tengu. So it comes down to reasonable documentation and reasonable doubt. What do you choose to believe based on the evidence available?

Kito ryu is one of at least two Jujutsu ryu-ha that I know can pretty well document themselves as being one of the oldest, if not the oldest Jujutsu ryu-ha known (and still extant).

The late Watatani Kiyoshi (well known koryu researcher and co-author of the "Bugei Ryuha Daijiten") wrote in an article that the earliest and most influential Jujutsu ryu-ha were Takenouchi ryu, Kito ryu, Sekiguchi ryu & Seigo ryu. He stated that there may have been some variant ryu-ha previous to these, but not nearly as influential.

In any event I think it is impossible to authoratatively state very much of what happened hundreds of years ago, and either way it is likely that there was more than one influence.

FWIW,

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
I was told that Danzan ryu is from Daito ryu.
Okazaki-sensei began his training in the Yoshin-ryu dojo of Tanaka-sensei. He later studied Iwaga-ryu & Kosogabe-ryu, receiving _okuden_ certification. During his _musha-shugyo_ trip to Japan in 1924, he trained at the dojo of over 50 ryuha. In the historical portion of the Danzan-ryu mokuroku, Okazaki names a number of famous jujutsu ryuha, but Daito-ryu is not among those named.
A few of the yawara thechniques taught at the shoden level of DZR resemble certain shoden-level waza of Daito-ryu jujutsu (but not Daito-ryu aikijujutsu).
Technically, Danzan-ryu is more closely related to Kodokan Judo than to Daito-ryu.

[Sheridan]

All of the folks I talk to think the Gracie's started jujutsu.

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by Sheridan
All of the folks I talk to think the Gracie's started jujutsu.
You need to get out more.

[Sheridan]

:D
:saw:

[MarkF]

Many ryu, to my knowledge came from or evolved into many of the still extant ryu from takenouchi, but which is it which is the oldest proven ryu still extant?

DR aikijujutsu is basically gendai, but DR jujutsu probably is much older.

Mark

[Jerry Johnson]

I thank every one for their responses. I am not sure if I can stop at the fine responses. Let me ask this way, what jujutsu ryu is responsible for making jujutsu a household name in America?

I am sorry about the Daito ryu. I was going off some stuff I read which said Daito ryu may have been in the US as early as 1900. It was an excerpt from a book written by John O'Brian around 1900. I don't mean the whole ryu. Just a handful of Daito ryu techniques used as self defense and term simple jujutsu. Or the influence it had on Japanese Shorinji Kempo (sp?) and maybe on Karate (?.)Sorry for the speculation and conjecture.


Sorry, I don't mean Gracie jiu jitsu. It is about a century late.

[Sheridan]

The Gracie thing was a funny. (Supposed to be.) Arguably, Donn Draeger brought jujutsu and judo back to north america at the same time. Katori Shinto-ryu was the school that is the most famous, (technically kenjutsu) but he also did some form of jodo as well. If you're really interested in this kind of research I'd suggest http://www.koryu.com. If you're really brave and EXTREMELY polite you might try posing the question to the Skoss's around here and hope that they see your post. Koryu.com is their website and it's chalk full of answers. The Koryu and Jodo forums have lots of that kind of stuff on e-budo. Joe Svinth is the resident history guru and moderator of the research forum. He knows more about my country than I do and his knowledge seems to range far and wide.

Good luck with your search!

[Joseph Svinth]

For way back, Takenouchi Ryu dates to the 1540s, and is often cited as the jujutsu ryu having the oldest extant reasonably trustworthy records. FWIW, another old style, Kito-ryu, was the jujutsu style most commonly taught in Canada before 1932. Jigoro Kano visited Vancouver that year, and meanwhile Canadian judo pioneer Shigetaka Sasaki was in Tokyo getting his 3-dan from the Kodokan.

Donn Draeger strides onstage ca. 1948-1949; the occasion was his appearance at John Osako's dojo in Chicago. "The big one paused at the entrance," Robert W. Smith writes in *Martial Musings*, "looked at us as if we were side dishes he hadn't ordered, and announced himself, 'Donn Draeger, yondan.' This was done with a panache I took for immodesty. I glanced at Johnny Osako who played it pianissimo, and then at Art Broadbent who arched an eyebrow before I could arch mine... Donn probably expected easy pickings from our midwestern hicks. Instead he was turned every way but loose by Osako and colleagues." The reason is of course that Nikkei had been doing judo in the Americas since 1903, and so soon after WWII had something of an attitude. That said, DD is important to US judo because of his involvement in the establishment of the Capitol Yudanshakai and the US Judo Federation. However, to say that he started it all is exaggeration, perhaps inspired by propaganda spread by folks such as the self-proclaimed Father of American Judo, O-Sensei Phil, a man who hadn't even started judo when Americans such as Ken Kuniyuki and Mits Kimura were already graded 6-dan through the Kodokan. DD is even more important, however, as the Great Enabler -- from the mid-1950s to the early 1970s, his on-the-ground support in Tokyo helped all kinds of Europeans, Americans, and Canadians in Japan. For links to DD information, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsenablers.htm ; see also http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_bluming_0800.htm .

Now, if tasked to identify who is responsible for spreading judo, karate, and such out of Japantown and professional wrestling rings and into Main Street America, I'd be inclined to credit the USAF (formed 1948), and Lt. Gen. Curtis LeMay's decision to introduce into the Strategic Air Command's combat aircrew and Air Police training programs. From 1949 until 1964, US airmen had access to first-rate training at AF bases throughout the world, and upon discharge some of the veterans introduced judo, karate, kendo, and aikido into their hometowns. (Marines on Okinawa served a similar function for Isshin-ryu karate in particular.) For an introduction to what causes me to believe this, see http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_aircrew_1100.htm and http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_svinth3_0100.htm

[Nathan Scott]

Hey Joe, maybe you could help on this one:

I remember reading somewhere about a "Japanese Diplomat" that volunteered to return with Commodore Perry or someone, who was an exponent of Daito ryu and had demonstrated and perhaps taught a bit upon arriving in America (San Francisco, I believe). The article indicated that this was more than likely the first time Jujutsu had been shown in America, and I found it interesting that it had been Daito ryu.

Does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

Regards,

[Ruediger]

The Daito ryu Homepage offers a little bit about this

http://www.daito-ryu.org/tota3.html

Just a few words about a foreigner - who came to Japan with Charles Perry - who studied with Sokaku Takeda

regards

[Jerry Johnson]

Interesting, very interesting. I can't even start to mention my delight with this discussion. The beauty of the net.

So, what was termed jujutsu might really be Judo. Judo introduction was near or before the start of the last century. Judo was very popular and widespread at the time. I will buy into that one. I taking a wild shot in the dark, so if this is true, then why the term jujutsu if what was being taught was Judo?

If this isn't true, why not? Realize I am just asking questions. I don't want to offend anyone.

Wow,I am just wound up on all the good info on such an important question. Me and the guys have hashed this out a bit. A few guys say what started it all was, Daito Ryu, a few Takenouchi ryu, and one guy is firmly set with Gracie jiu jitsu, Kidding. We clearly are amateurs in comparison when taking shop about this. Everyone, please don't stop replying am sure some more good will come from this.

[Neil Hawkins]

In the early days the terms judo and jujutsu were pretty much interchangeable. There was not the distinction we have today between do and jutsu. Kano himself referred to his art as jujutsu until very late in its evolution.

Another thing was that many of the practicioners that spread Kano's art, started out practicing one of the traditional ryu's, they joined Kano because they saw it as the way to keep the art alive, a better method of practice rather than a totally different art. They would have gone about still referring to the art as jujutsu and blurring the lines between Kano's system and the traditional ones.

People like Higashi, Yukio Tani and others all were kodakan men through and through, but still claimed they came from their original style (Tsutsumi Hozan ryu for for these two, but others were doing the same thing).

On older matters, there are many styles that incorporated jujutsu (or kumi-uchi, or yawara, or whatever name you want to use) into their systems, but Takenouchi was probably one of the first to specialise in it, but even they had a strong weapons system. It wasn't really until well after Tokugawa that the schools began to specialise and diversify, prior to that they all taught sword, spear and so on.

Regards

Neil

[MarkF]

Don't worry Neil, I'm not disagreeing, but I want to clear up something concerning the term Ju-do.

While Kano called the techniques of judo, jujutsu, the term judo comes from an older branch of kito ryu, jikishin ryu. While Kano did use jujutsu for the waza contained in judo (they were, after all, jujutsu), the term judo was probably being used as early as the eighteenth century, and it was a term he felt fit better than calling it the techniques of Ju.

It is far more emcompassing than to simply call the entire thing jujutsu, or Kodokan Jujutsu.

As to Kodokan jiu-jitsu, it was referred to as this, probably until the end or a few years beyond the second WW.

Please continue the discussion. Don't mind me. I'll be all right.:moon:

Mark

[Aaron Fields]

This may be going back further than is intended by the question, but what started ju-jutsu is Sumo.

[Sheridan]

I don't think I've ever heard that theory before. If you don't mind Aaron, could you direct me to some reading material, or give some more info on any research you've done? Thanks.

[Aaron Fields]

Be happy to, from what I remember the roots go back to pre-sport sumo. As I am a Mongol historian it may take me a day or two to retrace my research (don't keep Japanese source files on the tip of the mind you know), but I'll post a few sources.

[Nathan Scott]

My first post on this thread mentions the art of "tegoi", which is believed to have preceeded and provided the foundation for Sumo. The term "tegoi" is mentioned in the "Kojiki", one of the oldest extant Japanese texts.

This reference came from the book "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" by Stanly Pranin/Aiki News pg. 42, and is in reference to Daito ryu (jujutsu) specifically.

Early Sumo was a bit different than that which we see today, and I've also come across random references stating that early sumo (wrestling) was the inspiration/foundation for Jujutsu.

I'll keep my eyes open for these. Anyone else familiar with this theory?

Regards,

[Neil Hawkins]

Yes, but I'm at work and my books and notes are at home so a detailed answer will have to wait!

I believe that the earliest mentions of Sumo went back to the time of the gods, two princes were fighting on a beach and the emporer was watching. It gradually became a tradition to wrestle as entertainment for the court, this was not sumo as we know it because it often led to the death of the loser.

Over a period the dangerous moves were removed and the art as we know it evolved, how ever people did still practice the traditional form and as close fighting became more prevelent during the Warring States period some of those techniques were adapted for use in armour, creating kumiuchi and eventually jujutsu as it is today.

BTW. Sorry Mark, It was late when I posted that last night, I should have taken the time to get my thoughts straight, won't happen again! At least you're there to keep me honest.;)

Regards

Neil

[G. Jetter]

The following link is to a great article on Takeuchi Hisayoshi, grandson of the founder of Takeuchi Ryu Jujutsu, Takeuchi Hisamori.

The relevance to this thread is that in the article it lists several schools that developed from the Takeuchi Ryu; among these Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu:


Besides students who went on to open branches of the Takeuchi-ryu in their provinces, other students founded their own systems, based upon the Takeuchi-ryu and their own innovations. Araki Mujinsai, another of Hisayoshi's students, founded the Araki-ryu jujutsu. One of Mujinsai's students, Nakamura Taizo Yukiharu (a retainer of Hosokawa Morihiro), founded the Takenouchi Santo-ryu. Other ryu that can be traced back to the Takeuchi-ryu include the Takeuchi Une-ryu, Ninoue-ryu, Takagi-ryu, Rikishin-ryu, Oie-ryu, Tonteki-ryu, Yano-ryu, and Sosuishitsu-ryu. From these ryu sprang subsets, including the Araki Shin-ryu, Kashin-ryu, and Seishin-ryu. There were several well-known martial artists who are said to have studied the Takeuchi-ryu, including Saito Denkibo, Takeda Motsugai, Horibe Yasubei, Itagaki Shunsuke, and others.

This article is from Furyu Online.

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue10/Hisayoshi.html

Enjoy,