Max rank without going to Japan?

[kirgan]

Gassho,

It will be a long while before I have to worry about this one, but I was just curious how far can someone advance without having to go to Japan? Is there a limit?

My branch master is 6th Dan, so theoretically, if I stayed practicing under him long enough and he continued teaching long enough, how far could I advance under him without going to Japan? From what I have been reading online, I am under the impression somewhere around 3rd or 4th Dan you have to go to Japan to take the examination. Is that correct? If so, which one is the limit?

--Mike

[Steve Williams]

Hi Mike

The official line is that you can grade to 3rd dan without going to Japan if you are part of a national federation, otherwise you can only grade to 2nd dan within your branch/country.
You can grade to 3rd dan at a WSKO sponsored seminar (i.e. if there are WSKO instructors sent by hombu to teach a seminar).
Any grade of 4th dan and above must be taken at Hombu.

[Anders Pettersson]

Gassho.

OK I will add some details to the info Steve posted.

Yes you can test for sandan (3rd dan) if your country has a recognised national federation and that your national federation have someone that is godan (5th dan) or above who is entrusted by the federation to give tests for sandan.

I theory though I guess you could actually go up to at least rokudan (6th dan) without going to Japan.

As Steve says the basic rule is that all tests for yondan (4th dan) and above should be at Hombu. But on some occasions, such as Hombu organised events outside of Japan there have been tests up to rokudan.
For instance two people took the rokudan test in 2001 in Paris. I got my godan in Finland (at a Hombu organised koshukai), even my yondan wasn't at hombu, that test was held in Kyoto at the -97 Kokusai Koshukai.

However you also need to attend official koshukai (study sessions) to take Dan examinations, minimum one (after your shodan) in order to take nidan and so on. For details check you kamokuhyo (curriculum).
There are regular koshukai in different regions around the world, but most likely you will end up going to Japan anyway if you reach 3-4 dan.

/Anders

[kirgan]

Gassho,

Thank you for the information.

As far as I know, the US doesn't have a federation - just branches. I'm not sure of the total, but I think it is at least a half a dozen branches - maybe a little more. What are the requirements to create a federation anyway?


--Mike

[satsukikorin]

Oh, Mike, the U.S. has about twenty or thirty branches now! And we're in cahoots with Canada, so it will be a North American federation if we ever decide to federate. I can't remember what the drawback of federating was, but I seem to recall that there was one. Gary (Dolce-sensei), can you shed some light?

:)

[Anders Pettersson]

As far as I know, the US doesn't have a federation - just branches. I'm not sure of the total, but I think it is at least a half a dozen branches - maybe a little more.

No there isn't any federation in the US.
(There is, or at least used to be, a regional federation, Eastern US Federation, or something like that. Gary can probably give some correct info on that.)

You can find a list of all the branches in the US here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/list/area/usa.html).


What are the requirements to create a federation anyway?
You need to be four branches, and agree to form a federation. ;)

/Anders

[Anders Pettersson]

Oh, Mike, the U.S. has about twenty or thirty branches now! And we're in cahoots with Canada, so it will be a North American federation if we ever decide to federate.

According to WSKO Homepage there is a little over 30 branches in the US.

As for the federation it will not be possible to have a fedration consisting of branches in different countries. The WSKO bylaws is quite clear that it shall be all branches within the country, etc. Can't have two countries in one federation.
If you want I can dig up and quote the exact text from the bylaws.


/Anders

[kirgan]

Oh, Mike, the U.S. has about twenty or thirty branches now! And we're in cahoots with Canada, so it will be a North American federation if we ever decide to federate. I can't remember what the drawback of federating was, but I seem to recall that there was one. Gary (Dolce-sensei), can you shed some light?

:)

Wow, that many. I didn't realize. When I do Google searches I only seem to stumble onto a half dozen or so sites - many of the same ones keep appearing multiple times on my search list. That is nice to hear there are so much more than I thought.

--Mike

[kirgan]

No there isn't any federation in the US.

You can find a list of all the branches in the US here (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/list/area/usa.html).

You need to be four branches, and agree to form a federation. ;)

/Anders

Gassho,

Just curious what happens if 4 branches agree, but the other 26 in the US don't want to be in a federation. Is it still allowed to form without the other 26 participating in it or are they just sort of drafted?

--Mike

[Gary Dolce]

Oh, Mike, the U.S. has about twenty or thirty branches now! And we're in cahoots with Canada, so it will be a North American federation if we ever decide to federate. I can't remember what the drawback of federating was, but I seem to recall that there was one. Gary (Dolce-sensei), can you shed some light?


We have had an ongoing discussion on this subject for several years. There seems to be a wide range of views on this subject including a lot of different reasons for and against it among the Branch Masters. I wouldn't want to try to speak for any others, but I think geography plays some role. It is very hard to get a majority of the Branch Masters here in the same place for serious, lengthy, in-person discussion, something that is probably needed to get over some of the other objections that people have to it. I think we will get there eventually, but I would caution others on indulging in wild speculation on the subject. It is very hard to know and understand all the reasons other people may have when you are not standing in their shoes.

Anders is right, of course, that the WSKO bylaws only allow for national federations. Even if we could federate with Canada, it wouldn't make the process any easier.

As Anders indicated, for a number of years in the '80s and '90s there was an Eastern Regional Federation in the US. Regional federations do not seem to have any real authority though.

As for Mike's question, I don't have the bylaws handy so I can't look this up easily, but I believe you need at least a majority of the Branches to agree to it, it not complete consensus.

Gary

[satsukikorin]

Hmm, deeper and deeper (rather like hokei)...

Thanks for the comments, Gary and Anders. I'm a bit surprised and a bit disappointed to hear that only same-nation groups can confederate.

I suppose that in countries as big as the U.S., regional federations could make some sense. Off the top of my head I can imagine a Northwest Regional Federation, a Californian Federation, a Wild West Federation (Moab, Denver, etc.), a Northeast Federation and a American South Federation, maybe even a Midwest Federation. All very theoretical, of course. But what about the Canadians? Certainly we Northwesterners would be lonely without the British Columbians (i.e. Vancouver et al).

We should keep in mind that bylaws can be changed (not that I am advocating a change here and now—I have far too little knowledge of the issue to commit an opinion). The case would have to be very strong, and the process would not be short and simple.

:)

[David Dunn]

That begs the question as to why there is a British Shorinji Kempo Federation, with branches in England, Scotland and now Wales.

At risk of winding up the nationalists, it is in fact one country - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, to give it the correct title. That begs the further question, why are there several national football, rugby, athletics teams etc?

[Anders Pettersson]

That begs the further question, why are there several national football, rugby, athletics teams etc?

That must be a British thing. ;) :D

/Anders

[Steve Williams]

It is a British thing..... goes back to the days of empire.... ;) :)

The reason really is that when the British federation was started (founded?) then there was only branches in Britain and one affilliated (non-official) branch in Scotland..... hence a "British" federation......

Really it is just jolly decent of us to let these "other nationalities" join our illustrious federation :p

[kirgan]

Gassho,

Thanks for all the information it was very interesting. One thing that caught my attention is that Federations can administer exams for 3rd Dan and above. Although I don't have enough information of all the pros and cons of creating a federation, it sounds like by creating one, it may help to spread Shorinji Kempo in the US, since it would be easier to get more advanced black belts, which in turn would mean there would be more people able to become branch masters in US.

Just my two cents.

--Mike

[Gary Dolce]

Mike,

You are correct that being able to administer 3-dan tests is a real advantage to a Federation. 3-dan exams have also been given whenever there is a WSKO Study Session in the US or Canada (once or twice a year except in quadrennial International Taikai years). In recent years, even 4-dan exams have been given at WSKO Study Sessions in the US.

While it would certainly make it easier if a Federation could give them here, I honestly don't think that has been a serious factor in limiting the spread of Shorinji Kempo here. There are many 3-dan and above Kenshi in the US and Canada right now who are not Branch Masters. For some, life circumstances don't permit the time commitment needed. Others do their part by supporting their Branch Master. The biggest issue is developing Kenshi who have the experience and determination needed to open a Branch. I think there are ways a Federation could help with this, but a lot depends on the individual Branch Masters and their students. My recommendation is to approach your own practice with the goal that someday you will be responsible for teaching others. If you take that view, I think we would have no problem spreading Shorinji Kempo, regardless of the circumstances required for 3-dan testing.

Gary

[David Dunn]

The biggest issue is developing Kenshi who have the experience and determination needed to open a Branch. I think there are ways a Federation could help with this, but a lot depends on the individual Branch Masters and their students.

I agree with this. We have long had a discussion about forming a university sub-federation of the BSKF, but my feeling is that it creates an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy, and therefore more jobs that need to be voluntarily carried out in kenshi's own time. The same could be said for extra local structures. The BSKF supports the establishment and continuation of branches, and administers gradings, registers etc, but the biggest factor in establishing a new branch is the existence of someone who will take on the responsibility.

[Omicron]

I suppose that in countries as big as the U.S., regional federations could make some sense. Off the top of my head I can imagine a Northwest Regional Federation, a Californian Federation, a Wild West Federation (Moab, Denver, etc.), a Northeast Federation and a American South Federation, maybe even a Midwest Federation. All very theoretical, of course. But what about the Canadians? Certainly we Northwesterners would be lonely without the British Columbians (i.e. Vancouver et al).
It really would be interesting to see regional federations like these. It's really unfortunate that branches must all be in the same country though. It seems like our dojo has a lot more to do with the folks down in Washington than with any other Canadian dojos. In fact, the Seattle branch is considerably closer to us (about 200 km away) than the nearest Canadian branch, which I believe is in Calgary (about 700 km away). Canadian dojos are so few and far-between that it's no wonder we don't have a national federation here; after Calgary the next-nearest Canadian branch is in Ontario, about 3,300 km away. Meanwhile, if I'm not mistaken, there are quite a few branches in the northwestern USA that are much closer to us here. Oh well, I guess until the rules change or until we flesh-out the distance across the country we won't really have any practical reason to federate :(