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Doug Daulton
9th January 2006, 10:40
The central issue in question on two recently closed threads was/is the legitimacy of claims that Mr. Carbone's Agena sai help the user transfer energy/ki more efficiently and therefore are the best sai for practice. Central to the debate, IMO, was the tone used in marketing materials which seemed to attribute the sai with a … for lack of a better term … "mystical quality". Now before anyone gets bent, I'll make a few things clear.

1) I happen to believe in energy transference as a key part of all martial arts training ... karate, kobudo or other. It is certainly a legitimate in the strictly physics sense of the word … energy. The principle aim of any martial art waza, or even any modern weapons platform (bomb, gun, etc) is to harness energy in the most efficient manner and deliver it the most effective spot to achieve maximum effect, be it lethal, suppressive or both.

2) I have seen some mighty odd things in my time, travels and training. So, while I am generally a dyed-in-the-wool realist/pragmatist, my mind is open to the more spiritual/mystical concept of "Ki" and the idea that budo training gives one the ability to harness and control it in some manner.

And, it is worth mentioning that much of the hard science we take for granted today (i.e. fire, gunpowder, electricity, medicine, radio transmissions, etc.) was at one time considered magical and/or mystical by generations past. So, perhaps Ki is real and we simply lack the means to identify and measure it.

3) I have met, trained with and witnessed demonstrations by a wide variety of people who make claims about harnessing Ki or a similar ethereal energy for martial and/or medical intent. While a few have made me legitimately curious, if not a believer, most have proven to be whole-hearted charlatans playing on people’s romantic ideals and desires for profit, power or both.

In any case, I imagine most thoughtful, intelligent martial artists with any real length of time in study have met similar folks and come to similar conclusions. Unfortunately, we are often the minority. It seems there are droves of folks who want to believe in mystical powers as represented in Kung-fu Theatre on Saturday afternoon, and as a result they create an audience and ripe student base for these fakirs of the budo set.

4) As for Mr. Carbone’s sai, I want to be clear that I have no experience with them or their maker … and therefore have no opinion of my own on them. What I think others were trying to say is that some of the claims made seem rather fantastic, and perhaps this was NOT Mr. Carbone’s intention.

If this is the case, then he certainly should be made aware of the perception of “mystical energy transference”, so he can clarify for the good of his students, if not his sales. Pointing this out is not intended to be punitive, but rather informative and helpful.

If, as suggested by some, this “mystical” language is intentional, then there is legitimate reason for concern if such claims are made and then never supported. If for no other reason, such claims generally sully the reputations and perceptions of all legitimate martial artists who work hard to pass on the arts given them by their teachers.

Now, I’ve said all of this for two reasons:

A) I wanted to put some closure on the debate that sparked the idea for this post.

B) I wanted to open a discussion regarding Ki/Energy transference and invite folks to discuss their experiences, both positive and negative, with the general concept and any related waza.

So. consider the discussion opened. :D Feel free to debate vigorously, but please maintain a sense of decorum and respect for everyone involved.

Regards,

ShawnBailey
9th January 2006, 12:56
is it real?
im not sure. Ive been practicing shiatsu therapy since 1999 and ive seen things that would lead me to believe it exists.
when science is looking for it....are they looking to far to find something that isnt there, or; is chi or ki the energy that is contained by all of the molecules in every cell of your body?
if that is what it is........thats a lot of energy.
is there negative or positive energy? i believe so. can it be measured.....not with the tools we have today.....but, take a really negative person and put them in a room with 2 neutral people and watch the mood of the room change. the same can be true of putting a positive person in the room.
i would wager that just about everyone knows some positive and negative people that can affect a room full of people.
I dont know if i would want someone who is really negative treating me holistically or with something like shiatsu or reiki (if you're into that sort of thing), and i would advise people that are negative to stay away from such occupations because of the hazard it would create for the client or patient.

i could write a lot about my personal feelings on this subject......this is sort of a start.

CEB
9th January 2006, 13:38
One of the most important things you do to help your odds in a fight is to be able to hit as effing hard as possible. Whatever metaphor one choose to use in their labeling of power generation it is all rock 'n' roll to me. :)

Doug Daulton
9th January 2006, 14:04
One of the most important things you do to help your odds in a fight is to be able to hit as effing hard as possible.

Well said! :D

Harry Cook
10th January 2006, 12:00
Ki/chi..its all chemical!!
If you really want to see chi in action see a powerlifter or a bodybuilder with 'roid rage'...there is chi.
Harry Cook

R_Garrelts
10th January 2006, 15:18
1) I happen to believe in energy transference as a key part of all martial arts training ... karate, kobudo or other. It is certainly a legitimate in the strictly physics sense of the word … energy. The principle aim of any martial art waza, or even any modern weapons platform (bomb, gun, etc) is to harness energy in the most efficient manner and deliver it the most effective spot to achieve maximum effect, be it lethal, suppressive or both.


For a very nice explanation of the physics involved in collisions, you might try this link:

Sword Impacts and Motions--George Turner (http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/GTA/motions_and_impacts.htm)

It really is a very well-done essay, and on the second page the author makes some nice comments about the relation between kinetic energy and the damage resulting from a collision. Unusual to see such a good exposition of basic physics on an internet martial arts site.

shoshinkan
10th January 2006, 16:42
I accept chi/ki simply as energy, and of course the transfer of energy is an important aspect of any art.

Now empty hand is a little more straight forward, by physical contact (and some would say without hrrrrmmmmm) i am able to transfer my energy into something, or to the point someone, and different hand formations deliver different ammounts of energy, that does different things.

With a weapon the weapon will obviously act as the link, so im comftorable with the fact that a well made, balanced weapon will transmit energy better than one that isnt well made or balanced. And of course the material that the weapon is made from would also make a significant difference as would design shape.

As for making rather 'elaborate' claims, well thats down to marketing ethics.