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autrelle
2nd December 2000, 17:25
does anyone have a preference to using extension over collapsing? how about a preference for collapse in some techniques and extension in others?

Nacho
3rd December 2000, 02:21
Can you be more specific, I don't think I understand your point.

autrelle
3rd December 2000, 15:54
in terms of kokyu/kokyurokyu. sometimes there is extension (ikkyo), sometimes there is collapse (certain variations of kokyuho). is there a preference to one or the other for anyone?

MarkF
4th December 2000, 09:14
Hi, Nacho:wave:
Welcome to Ebudo! Please note forum rules and sign with your full name, please? It is policy. It is easy if you set the signature box with it.

Mark

Mike Collins
5th December 2000, 00:43
Maybe to say "yield" rather than collapse would be less misleading.

Actually, kokyuho/kokyunage can and maybe should be done as an extension while turning rather than too much of a yield anyway.

So I guess the answer is, I prefer extension rather than collapse, certainly, and to some extent more than yielding.

But I'm a big guy, so that may influence the preference.

autrelle
5th December 2000, 02:09
i didn't use the word yield because i think there is enough example of yielding WHILE extending that is an entirely different feel from collapsing. this isn't a question for beginning students, and i apologize for any confusion.

George Ledyard
5th December 2000, 13:59
Asking this is like asking whether one prefers Yin or Yang. All technique is a balance between the two. Any technique that isn't a balance of the two isn't working. That's why people are taking issue with the term "collapse". A collapse is a Yin energy that is out of balance with the Yang. Any kind of "collapse" will result in the opponent (partner) moving directly to your center and you will not recover.

There are techniques that are done with the arms very extended and those that can be done with the arms quite bent. Some times the technique involves a transition between those two states. It is a matter of defining ones physical space. But always the Yin and Yang are in balance whether it is obvious or not. So you can't prefer one over the other.

It is my considered opinion at this point that there are no pulling movements in Aikido (movements that use the retractors to pull the partner). All "draw" type movements are simply a change in the level or angle of your extension.What I think you mean when you say "collapse" is the type of technique that transitions from extension into the hands to more extension into the elbow and then back again to the hands. This has the look of a collapse but it really is simply a change in the size of the extension and keeps the Yin and Yang elements in balance.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 12-05-2000 at 08:06 AM]

Chuck Clark
5th December 2000, 16:01
Hi George,

Good post, I agree that there are no "pulling or coiling" motions in aikido or judo (when done properly). I see all appropriate movement as cutting. Even the movements which look like pulling are really drawing motions. Pushing out while moving the center back / turning.

I'm not saying that some folks don't do pulling movements ... they just haven't felt yet how easy it is to counter those movements.

Cheers,