PDA

View Full Version : Women & Naginata



Stéphan Thériault
15th January 2003, 07:06
http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/kata.html
I don't know if anyone has read this article. But in the third paragraph from the bottom, Dreager mentions the "combative degeneration" of the naginata due to it's pratice having been taking over by women. Just wondering what people think.

samuel-t
15th January 2003, 09:20
I thought naginata traditionally was very much used by women. That samurai women learnt to handle naginata to be able to defend their homes when their samurai husbands were out on the battle fields. Am I misunderstanding something here?

/Samuel

Andy Watson
15th January 2003, 10:41
I can see how some might read this paragraph and label Donn as being a male chauvinist but I believe that he has written a very objective piece here.

The Japanese, as well as other countries too no doupt, have indeed diverted much of bujutsu/budo into an aesthetic programme. I believe Donn's point is that today hardly any men practise naginata and as such it is viewed as a feminine, aesthetic art by the Japanese as a whole. Under that kind of descrimination, the path of least resistance is that the people involved in naginata become more and more focused on making it a feminine and aesthetic art.

Prior to this Donn made the point that the naginata used to be a ferocious and highly effective weapon used by warriors.

I think he is just drawing comparisons. Obviously many many martial arts have suffered the same fate one way or another.

Anyway, I waffle when people like Dianne Skoss can answer this point much more effectively.

Regards

Karl Friday
15th January 2003, 21:42
Originally posted by Stéphan Thériault
http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/kata.html
I don't know if anyone has read this article. But in the third paragraph from the bottom, Dreager mentions the "combative degeneration" of the naginata due to it's pratice having been taking over by women. Just wondering what people think.

Draeger was trying to make a particular point about judo kata in the paragraph in question, rather than a general one about bugei history, and his remarks need to be kept in that context. Nevertheless, out of context, they rather dramatically overstate the degree to which naginata are/were associated with women.

The use of the naginata in battle dropped off quickly from the 14th century onward, in close inverse proportion to the use of the straight spear (yari). The reason behind the shift seems to have been the increasing size of the armies arrayed on battlefields--and the corrollary increase in the use of infantry troops fighting in close order:

Naginata are designed for sweeping, cutting movements, which makes them well-suited to warriors fighting as individuals, but not to soldiers fighting in rank--you can't swing a glaive while standing shoulder-to-shoulder with your fellow soldiers. But you can stab with a spear.

During the Tokugawa period, a lighter, shorter-bladed version of the early medieval naginata became a popular weapon for women to use in defense of the home--probably for the reasons cited elsewhere in this thread. And in modern times, the tradition of women training in naginata has translated into the sport of naginata-do (aka Atarashii Naginata) becoming almost exclusively a women's art.

At the same time, naginata did not disappear from the curricula of classical (koryu) bugei schools, even during the Tokugawa period and beyond. Samurai men trained with naginata throughout the era. Naginata-jutsu continues, moreover, to be taught by quite a few koryu today--to men as well as women.

ghp
15th January 2003, 23:36
Just adding to what Dr. Friday mentioned
Naginata-jutsu continues, moreover, to be taught by quite a few koryu today--to men as well as women. I watched Meik Skoss perform Toda-ha Bukoryu naginatajutsu kumitachi (or whatever they call it) at the Meiji Shrine Hono Enbu on Culture Day -- way back in 1993. Holy cow, but was that dynamic! No sissy stuff there, that's for sure. There is no way one could misinterpret their enbu as a "dance with long whaka-whaka sticks!" Fast, strong, hard -- cripes! a deadly beauty.

With a perspective,
Guy

Joseph Svinth
16th January 2003, 01:31
You might read the following:

Amdur, Ellis. "The Development and History of the Naginata," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 4:1, 1995

-----. "The Role of Arms-Bearing Women in Japanese History," Journal of Asian Martial Arts, 5:2, 1996; see also http://www.koryubooks.com/Library/wwj1.html

TommyK
16th January 2003, 03:09
Greetings,

In addition to the fine points already made, may I also suggest that one read Ellis Amdur's "Old School". In this fine collection of essays he addresses koyru arts as a whole and in one of his essays he tackles the history of the naginata and the role of women with this koryu weapon. A fine read, especially with this essay.

Regards,
TommyK

R A Sosnowski
16th January 2003, 14:22
Two minor points here:


And in modern times, the tradition of women training in naginata has translated into the sport of naginata-do (aka Atarashii Naginata) becoming almost exclusively a women's art.

My Naginata teacher in California, Tanaka-s. (Kyoshi), has told me that the term Naginata-do fell out of use after WWII as it was associated with the pre-war militaristic-style of training.

In Japan, Naginata is still considered a woman's art, although a more and more men have joined in recent years; about nine out of ten Naginata-ka are women, but since women have been doing it so much longer, the higher ranks are still almost all women.

This is not true outside of Japan where there is a less strong bias that "men do Kendo and women do Naginata;" in fact, in the USA and Canada, Naginata tends to attract refugees from Karate and Kendo. In the other member countries of the INF (International Naginata Federation) the gender ratio is roughly half-and-half. However, these overall numbers are quite small; I believe that France has the largest number of Naginata-ka outside of Japan at around three-hundred.

In terms of just numbers, Naginata is still a women's art, but in relative numbers based on countries outside of Japan, Naginata is an art for all people, men and women. I know because I am one of them. :D

HTH,
Raymond Sosnowski
East Coast Naginata Federation Administrative Secretary, Historian and co-founder
Permanent Member of the ECNF Board of Directors
============================================================================
Raymond Sosnowski raymond.sosnowski.1995@alum.bu.edu
Kaicho: Mid-Atlantic Naginata Dokokai, Ashton, MD;
member: Northern Virginia Budokai;
member: Shingetsukai/US (Tendo Ryu Naginata-jutsu).
============================================================================

RDeppe
17th January 2003, 18:49
I've been lucky enough to have had this conversation with a couple of people who have trained with Draeger (as I think a couple of other here have-- so nothing to special) and their point was always the same and didn't have anything thing to do with women or naginatas directly. It was apparently Draeger's opinion that Japanese MA was better than others' simply because they stayed on the battle field longer/later (ie the Chinese (and others) were not actively killing large numbers with edged weapons while the Japanese were). So, it was because the women were not actively doing actual fighting (of any kind) that the art suffered. While they could pass down the kata as taught, they would by necessity lose the secrets behind/in the kata. Again, this was apparently Draeger's opinion as related to me by people who knew him. This obviously is a whole can of worms that goes way beyond the 'did women lessen the art' question.

That's my two cents.

Dan Harden
18th January 2003, 17:18
I would add that were you to witness Naginata-jutsu as contained in the TSKSR you would have no doubts as to its martial efficiency. The interesting placement of grip and methods for using both ends of the weapon are very dynamic and strong-even stunning. I would caution anyone considering Naginata as being "only" sweeping motions. While that is its predominate strength-there is more there than that.
At any rate TSKSR's naginata is hardly effeminate by anyone’s definition-and Mr. Draeger would have known that quite well.

BTW Karl's description of closed rank fighting offers some interesting thoughts to other methods and use of weapons in the Koryu. One could discuss the use of Naginata and Yari (as he did) as both are classical battlefield weapons that had phases of use. Then we have the apparent "lack" of the previously percieved sustained use of the sword as opposed to other weapons on the field. I wonder if one could debate the techncial use of the long sword as opposed to shorter swords or Kogusoku as the predominate means of engagement while in the same "closed rank" environment. All Koryu, all battlefield, but what percentage and/or era yielded effective use of which weapon? Things that make you go hmmm....

cheers
Dan

Cady Goldfield
21st January 2003, 18:49
Naginata wielded as a weapon doesn't seem to have been wimpy in the hands of the women who learned it, either. I've seen some Nepalese women wielding khukri to harvest rice straw, and I had no doubt that they could easily use it to lop wrists and heads. A "feminine" tool of agriculture and horticulture (used also as a weapon) only becomes "effeminate" when it is used as a rarified parlor art, rather than as the practical implement it was originally intended to be.

David A. Hall
22nd January 2003, 02:47
I was visiting the Maniwa Nen Ryu dojo a number of years ago on a day a Japanese film crew was there. (Some sort of budo documentary was being made.) Although both the men and women members of the ryu regularly train in naginata-jutsu, only the women members were shown to the film crew. I asked Higuchi Sensei (the headmaster) why they did that for the film crew. His answer, "That's what they expect to see. Most Japanese don't understand the old ways."

This is pretty typical of the Japanese. In order to avoid shock or surprise, they will show you / tell you what they think you expect to see / hear. This is considered proper behavior and good manners!

Dave Hall



Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Naginata wielded as a weapon doesn't seem to have been wimpy in the hands of the women who learned it, either. I've seen some Nepalese women wielding khukri to harvest rice straw, and I had no doubt that they could easily use it to lop wrists and heads. A "feminine" tool of agriculture and horticulture (used also as a weapon) only becomes "effeminate" when it is used as a rarified parlor art, rather than as the practical implement it was originally intended to be.

Nathan Scott
22nd January 2003, 22:28
Interestingly, from what I know of both atarashii naginata and Tendo ryu, the movements generally emphasize pretty linear movement of the naginata - aside from cuts like "do" (yoko giri).

Atarashii tells you to keep the tip close to your body during the furikaeshi movement, and to move over the top (with the e-bu close or touching the chest area) when performing the blocks of exercises like uchi kaeshi. It even contains the idea, at least symbolically, of putting the ishizuki on the ground to perform basic mochikae. On the other hand, atarashii naginata is about as far from "battlefield" technique as you can get!

Tendo ryu also emphasizes a lot of very linear movement for what I assume to be the same reasons, though I doubt that most seniors would consider the currently transmitted Tendo ryu as being a battlefield art.

Both emphasize a strict hanmi (ichimonji) body/foot position and mostly linear ashisabaki.

I guess the point being that, while both these arts are clearly modernized to varying degrees, there seems to be an adherence to certain "battlefield' principles. However, I would guess that a longer spear would win over a naginata more times than not. Especially if engaged in a shoulder-to-shoulder format.

A lot of people who don't train in naginata don't realize that, generally, the ma-ai between a naginata-ka and kendo-ka is about the same. The person with the naginata has both sides of the weapon at their disposal, but the distance from the front hand to the kissaki is typically about the same as the distance from the swordsman's front hand and their kissaki.

BTW, Meik and I both train in atrashii naginata as well! We're taking over!

Nathan Scott
Southern California Naginata Federation (http://www.scnf.org)

MarieB
24th January 2003, 09:38
considering that MA as a whole are dominated by men, why does it even matter if naginata is a 'womens' martial art? :idea:

Andy Watson
24th January 2003, 09:51
Good point. I think what people are concerned about is making any martial art exclusive to one sex. If a particular art attracts more of one sex than another then fair enough - that's an evolutionary result. However, if one art is MADE exclusive due to how it is described then that becomes a problem.

Joseph Svinth
25th January 2003, 04:12
Part of it is that during the 1920s, the Japanese Ministry of Education decided to introduce a martial art for schoolgirls. Judo, kendo, and boxing were all considered, but in the end, it was naginata that was selected.

Cady Goldfield
26th January 2003, 13:35
And therein lies the issue. Naginata as wielded by women (and men) as a weapon in earlier times -- and perpetuated today in some koryu -- was a martial discipline with a pragmatic purpose, is a powerful jutsu. I have seen videos of one of Yoshio Sugino's senior female students, and her naginata waza did not look wimpy.

Naginata as a "parlor art" or "phys-ed requirement" -- a designation under which I'd include "school girl phys ed requirement" -- loses its martial application and becomes just a physical excercise devoid of combat focus or understanding of the martial purpose. I'd reckon that 99.9% of the traditional Japanese girls being instructed in it would just as soon do flower arranging or tea ceremony.

Joseph Svinth
27th January 2003, 06:17
Actually, what they wanted to do was play volleyball and basketball, but the fascists weren't into "fun" activities.

Cady Goldfield
27th January 2003, 15:40
I was going to mention basketball too...

Aaron T
28th January 2003, 18:16
The reason I started naginata is because it is a "women's budo." ;)


The problem is that I practice the Araki naginata, and there are no women in the group.

Cady Goldfield
28th January 2003, 18:32
Well, now you know better than to choose koryu dojo as places to pick up chicks. ;)

Aaron T
30th January 2003, 00:22
Mongol invasion of Japan was mostly conscripts....Korean, some Chinese.

I am no good at targeting budo that is going to have chicks...

None in ju-jutsu, none in judo, and for sure there are none in the sombo gyms in Mongolia........

Victor
30th January 2003, 02:32
Naginata yielded by women......hmmm.

Long ago I saw a video, I believe it was 'Budo the art of Killing' or some such. On it the most impressive group were the women performing Naginata.

Hundreds of them, from girls in school, to young women competing in a Naginata version of Kendo, to Mother's teaching and Grandmothers performing two person sets with live blades.

From all the video I've seen, of many different artists, they presented the most impressive, cross-generational group in the arts I've ever seen.

Several years ago, there was a MA special on the Discovery Channel, that featured some of the same group I believe, with a gentleman there to train under the Senior Instructor (who was female).

Now one can't assume from video tape the entire story is shown. But I've not seen anything else with technique, focus and entire lifetime practioners with hundreds of students.

Sure seem like real martial artists to me.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Nathan Scott
30th January 2003, 21:34
Several years ago, there was a MA special on the Discovery Channel, that featured some of the same group I believe, with a gentleman there to train under the Senior Instructor (who was female).

The gentleman was Alex Bennett, who has been studying atarashii naginata, kendo, Tendo ryu naginatajutsu and other koryu in Japan for some time now. He is also the Editor of "Kendo World" magazine. Subscribe to it if you haven't already. BTW, I believe the senior female instructor was Tokunaga Sensei, who is VERY senior in both Atarashii and Tendo ryu naginata.

The women performing what appeared to be live blade naginata kata in the "Budo" documentary were from Jikishinkage ryu naginatajutsu. And yes, there are a number of very skilled women budo-ka in naginata and other arts.

Alex is in the vast minority of men in Japan studying atarashii naginata, bur from time to time you'll see pictures in magazines like "Budo" magazine (Japanese) of Japanese men in Japan studying as well. The art is appealing on a number of levels, and as such I think we'll see the male to female number begin to equal out a bit more in the future.

Regards,

Aaron T
31st January 2003, 00:50
I get the feeling Russ did not catch the "tounge in my cheek."

:D

I stand corrected :rolleyes:

Joseph Svinth
31st January 2003, 02:21
Perhaps Russ doesn't like tongue action from you as much as Neil?

David A. Hall
6th February 2003, 14:33
Building a wall around Hakata Bay after the first attempted invasion helped as much as any particular weapon. The wall wasn't very high but it did restrict the invaders well enough to allow the Japanese to deal with them.


Originally posted by Mekugi
Not that this has a lot to do with the thread at this point...

I was just reading last night about the use of the naginata against the invading Mongols in Japan. Apperantly, the Japanese used them for killing/disabling horses and keeping the Mongolian cavalry from ever getting their act together on shore.

-R

Margaret Lo
12th February 2003, 18:48
Originally posted by Andy Watson
I can see how some might read this paragraph and label Donn as being a male chauvinist but I believe that he has written a very objective piece here.

I think he is just drawing comparisons. Obviously many many martial arts have suffered the same fate one way or another.

Anyway, I waffle when people like Dianne Skoss can answer this point much more effectively.

Regards

Am I the only one a little bit bothered by this attempted "defense" of Donn Draeger? I know the attempt is well meant but feels to me to be inadvertantly condescending and somehow unfair.

I think we can all agree for certain that he was in fact, a true blue male chauvinist with little time or use for women in martial arts. This being the man, we should accept him as he was without judging him adversely in his politics or attempting to hide his chauvinism or other biases so that he looks more blandly correct under current standards.

My reaction to his statement on the naginata, and another in Asian Fighting Arts about the degeneration of Hwarangdo into "effeminincy" is the same: so what? One can agree or disagree about these comments as one can about other judgments or opinions he has, and weigh them according to the facts and one's own knowledge.

Since the substance of his work contributed so much and stands up to scrutiny, we should accept the man for who he was. I for one don't hold it against him.

M

Cady Goldfield
12th February 2003, 19:40
I agree, Margaret.
Anyway, Draeger is dead, rendering the issue thus is dead, too.

Dan Harden
12th February 2003, 23:32
I take exception to anyone labeling .
What if......
The group of men that Don was involved actually s-a-w the Kata degenerate in womens hands?

What if....
They were correct and accurate in their observations?
Should they lie about it to appease someones sensibilities?

What if....
They were correct that it it also happened in the past with the halberd?

There is little chance that an army of women would stand against and equal army of men with swords and Naginata. You can recite individual exceptions to the cows come home it doesn' mean anything for large percentages.

A team of Pro footbal women players would get murdered by a typical NFL team..so what?
There are more men in prison than women.
Men commit the majority of violent crime
Its true
I'm chauvinisitic to say it?
If things were different due to upbringing, training, culture, whatever, and women were as large, as aggressive on average to men then things would be different.

Gees
People are generally so exact these days as to defy any effective communication. Everyone has a cause and an aggenda- its new age nonsense. Women are no better than men-no worse. But we are not the same in many respects..thank goodness.
These guys were of a different era observing behaviour of that era that was most probably observationally sound. And from that they formed an opinion.

Cheers
Dan

Cady Goldfield
13th February 2003, 00:08
My only issue is that it likely wasn't accurate judging the art as the result of "effeminazation by women," when it was the influence of society and the sporting ministry that aimed to turn naginata into a phys-ed discipline and "parlor art" for women... women who would not otherwise have sought out martial arts.

Women being a tiny minority in the classical martial arts, whatever their adapted form, any group of women practicing such an art would stand out publicly and come under the scrutiny of people like Draeger. Of course if he was watching the "parlor art" schools, he would blame the degradation of the art on the women who practiced it with no clue.

Did Draeger ever seek out that old samurai-class women in those far-flung prefectures who knew the "old way" of naginata and could have sliced Draeger's ass into salami salad? Or was his approach more passive, visiting urban dojo and contemporary instructors?

David A. Hall
13th February 2003, 01:11
Donn traveled quite a bit seeking out both traditional and contemporary teachers in Japan. He was respected for his work by every Japanese teacher I spoke with who knew him.

While he may have been critical of certain trends, he based his opinions on his research. The yardstick he used was combativeness as compaired to the traditions he had trained in and observed, and his own experience in combat.

While he was unimpressed at the "combative capabilities" of such schools as Jikishinkage Ryu naginata, he was impressed by some of its practitioners. He once commented to me (c. 1978) that the headmaster of that school (a woman) had the most deadly, piercing kiai he had ever heard.

Dave Hall


Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
My only issue is that it likely wasn't accurate judging the art as the result of "effeminazation by women," when it was the influence of society and the sporting ministry that aimed to turn naginata into a phys-ed discipline and "parlor art" for women... women who would not otherwise have sought out martial arts.

Women being a tiny minority in the classical martial arts, whatever their adapted form, any group of women practicing such an art would stand out publicly and come under the scrutiny of people like Draeger. Of course if he was watching the "parlor art" schools, he would blame the degradation of the art on the women who practiced it with no clue.

Did Draeger ever seek out that old samurai-class women in those far-flung prefectures who knew the "old way" of naginata and could have sliced Draeger's ass into salami salad? Or was his approach more passive, visiting urban dojo and contemporary instructors?

Cady Goldfield
13th February 2003, 01:20
Thanks David.

It just seems that naginata was so non-mainstream that it was bound to get watered down after the Meiji Restoration. Dunno if I'd blame it on "effeminazation" or just plain the loss of handed-down and transferred knowledge. A lot of old systems got watered down or lost that way. Lucky are the koryu that survive intact today. They are relatively few.

Hurtzdontit
9th February 2006, 04:29
Hi I'm not sure if this should be in the gendai part but I thought I'ld get a better response from here. I understand all the history of Naginata and how females fit in the picture, but I allways thought that Gendai Naginata was for females, that is until I started reading Kendo world magazine and noticed that Alex Bennett and Hamish Robinson are high grades in it. In fact Alex just helped write "Naginata the definitive guide".
Now I'm a little confused.
Anyone know the answer, it would be much appreciated.
Andrew Timms

fifthchamber
9th February 2006, 05:31
It's for anyone who wants to do it...The majority remain female due to way that modern Naginata is seen in public here..The men think Kendo is more macho I guess..But it's for anyone who would like to do it..No lines there..I personally think it's far harder than Kendo..But then I think Kendo is hard too..
Regards.

gyrfalcon
9th February 2006, 06:40
The vast majority of naginata practitioners in Japan are female. And I do mean vast majority. This is due largely to the history of naginata as "traditionally" a woman's weapon. Headmastery of many naginata schools ended up passing from men to women. In postwar Japan, men were encouraged to take up kendo, and women were encouraged to take up naginata. There is still a widespread perception that naginata is for women, though--some people who have come to us from kendo have told stories of telling their kendo sensei that they were doing naginata, and getting the quizzical response in return of, "Isn't that a woman's weapon?" It isn't exclusively the case of it being practiced by women only in Japan, either.

For some reason, though, in the West, the ratio of women to men is, I hear, around 60/40. The NY dojo is very male-heavy, more like 90% male. Many of us, perhaps unaware of the "traditional" cultural perception, have been attracted to the naginata's unique form and gracefulness without knowing the history. Others, especially us taller men, come to naginata in part looking for a weapon more suited to people our size.

Mostly it's practiced by women. But, especially in the US, a lot of us guys practice, too.

Hurtzdontit
9th February 2006, 12:08
Thanks all for the input on that, I might check out a few books and have a look at it.
Thanks
Andrew Timms

paradoxbox
10th February 2006, 00:25
Tanemura Shoto has some history of the naginata in his book ninpo secrets, and also goes into detail about the history of naginata in general, as well as naginata in a few specific ryuha in his panther productions naginaga & yari video. I recommend buying that video as it's only about 8 bucks now, about an hour long and worth every penny..

gyrfalcon
10th February 2006, 03:50
If you want a history of naginata, I highly recommend you go read the article Women Warriors of Japan (http://www.koryu.com/library/wwj1.html) by Ellis Amdur. The history of the naginata is inextricably bound up with the history of female warriors, and he covers the development of the major schools of naginata as well.

Margaret Lo
10th February 2006, 21:06
If ever there was a quintessential battlefield weapon the ancient naginata must fit the bill. 6 feet of wood and steel. How ironic that it became identified so much with women's health and fitness.

How much did the original fighting weapons weigh I wonder?

M

kokumo
10th February 2006, 21:42
If ever there was a quintessential battlefield weapon the ancient naginata must fit the bill. 6 feet of wood and steel. How ironic that it became identified so much with women's health and fitness.

How much did the original fighting weapons weigh I wonder?

M

A shirokashi rokushakubo will run about one kilo and a 14" naginata blade with an equally long tang will run about half a kilo. Put 'em together and add a weighted ishizuki for the butt end of the shaft and add the weight of the fittings and wrapping necessary to hold the shaft snug on the tang and you're closing in on two kilos.

However, some schools still emphasize a considerably longer and meatier blade, which could easily add another 500 g to a kilo, and might call for a heavier shaft as well.

But if the whole thing gets into the 3 kilo plus range, it may be that "nagamaki" is a more accurate description than naginata.

FWIW, the basic kata-yo naginata you'll find in most martial arts supply catalogs is considerably lighter and slighter than what I use for practice.

FL

Andrew S
10th February 2006, 22:19
If ever there was a quintessential battlefield weapon the ancient naginata must fit the bill. 6 feet of wood and steel. How ironic that it became identified so much with women's health and fitness.

M

My (limited) understanding is that the naginata was one of the primary weapons during the Nara and Heian periods (probably based on Chinese halbards). Certainly the warrior-monk Benkei is always depicted as fighting with one, and Kukishin Ryu folks will be quick to point out that their fighting art was based on naginata.
Fast forward a couple of hundred years and we find that the overall strategy for massed troop movements changed and the naginata was less practical for soldiers, so it was left at home with the wives. This is the point where it became associated with women.

Post Meiji period, it was seen as part of a "lady's" education, along with flower arranging and koto playing.

I'm sure someone else can give you a much more detailed answer.

paradoxbox
10th February 2006, 23:18
Not only was it the strategy changes that caused the naginata to become less popular, but some of the main targets of the naginata began to be covered in armor. During the mongol invasions, pieces of armor covering the legs were not all that common, as a result cuts to the leg with a naginata were often the death of the enemy soldier. When that target was covered, the number of effective slashing areas grew smaller and more difficult to hit.

TeknoXI
24th February 2006, 06:07
My (limited) understanding is that the naginata was one of the primary weapons during the Nara and Heian periods (probably based on Chinese halbards). Certainly the warrior-monk Benkei is always depicted as fighting with one, and Kukishin Ryu folks will be quick to point out that their fighting art was based on naginata.
Fast forward a couple of hundred years and we find that the overall strategy for massed troop movements changed and the naginata was less practical for soldiers, so it was left at home with the wives. This is the point where it became associated with women.

Post Meiji period, it was seen as part of a "lady's" education, along with flower arranging and koto playing.

I'm sure someone else can give you a much more detailed answer.
My sensei told me that part of the reason why naginata was practiced less when the strategy switched to massed troop movements was because a yari was much easier to teach. The naginata required some sort of skill to use while with a yari, it was basically stab stab and stab, basically for a simple new soldier.

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 18:14
Sorry for the O/T post, but could someone pm me with the name of a good source of functional (live) naginata and yari blades/heads? I've been looking, but it gets confusing. I don't want a hand-forged, damascus-layered, thermo-nuclear quenced, signed-by-the-Sun-God piece.... just some serviceable steel with the real weight and feel.

mikesigman (at) earthlink dot net

Many thanks.

Mike

kokumo
24th February 2006, 19:23
Sorry for the O/T post, but could someone pm me with the name of a good source of functional (live) naginata and yari blades/heads? I've been looking, but it gets confusing. I don't want a hand-forged, damascus-layered, thermo-nuclear quenced, signed-by-the-Sun-God piece.... just some serviceable steel with the real weight and feel.

mikesigman (at) earthlink dot net

Many thanks.

Mike

http://www.kriscutlery.com/japanese/bare/index_bare.html

mikesigman@eart
24th February 2006, 19:33
Thanks, Fred. I already ordered.

Mike

Bruce Mitchell
26th February 2006, 04:16
My sensei told me that part of the reason why naginata was practiced less when the strategy switched to massed troop movements was because a yari was much easier to teach. The naginata required some sort of skill to use while with a yari, it was basically stab stab and stab, basically for a simple new soldier.

Another thing to consider is that the production cost of yari is much lower than the cost to produce naginata. Also if resources are limited (you couldn't purchase bulk iron back then) you could get more spear heads than nagainata blades from a chunk of steel.

Lastly there are a few reason why foot trops armed with spears have been an international norm. One is that you can have closer spacing of your troops, which means that your lines are much less likely to be broken. Second, when troops work in close formation they are more likely to actually fight. finally, the wounds caused by a spear are much more likely to be lethal than a slash from a blade.

JakobR
27th February 2006, 21:52
Hello Bruce,
Bennet mentions in his book "Naginata - The Definite Guide..." that both that the use naginata and yari decreasing in use on the later battlefield when guns and swords became more common and the formations clooser. He also mentions that the naginata is less a womens weapon than we might think and that the woman/naginata conection is mostly a modern invention. I do doubt that the yari is more leathal than the naginata. You will die by both weapons but a slashing weapon will kill you faster as it will make bigger wounds. A person hit by an slashing weapon is also less likely to hit you back. That was at least the experience of the WWI soldier and author Erich Maria Remarque.

J. L. Badgley
28th February 2006, 00:49
I think its use as strictly a woman's weapon may be more modern, but I seem to recall that the idea of making it part of a woman's dowry was an Edo period or earlier tradition. I could easily be wrong on that.


-Joshua B.

Bruce Mitchell
28th February 2006, 02:52
Hello Bruce,
Bennet mentions in his book "Naginata - The Definite Guide..." that both that the use naginata and yari decreasing in use on the later battlefield when guns and swords became more common and the formations clooser. He also mentions that the naginata is less a womens weapon than we might think and that the woman/naginata conection is mostly a modern invention. I do doubt that the yari is more leathal than the naginata. You will die by both weapons but a slashing weapon will kill you faster as it will make bigger wounds. A person hit by an slashing weapon is also less likely to hit you back. That was at least the experience of the WWI soldier and author Erich Maria Remarque.

Sorry to have to disagree with you here Jakob, but you have to remeber the time period. You were (and still are) more likely to die from secondary infection with a piercing wound then an open slash. My understanding is that in battle statistics across the continents spear wounds have always outranked sword (or other bladed weapons) as the cause of death.

Case in point, I cut my self fairly deep in Novemeber while de-boning a turkey. It bled a lot (which helped to clean the wound) and took a few weeks to heal up with out much ado. In December I got a splinter in my palm while moving one of my wife's painting panels. The splinter took a bit of skin from the outside of my hand and drove it in along with the wood. I had an infection within 24 hours and had difficulty closing my hand.

A ten centimeter slash across your stomach might kill you, but you can apply direct pressure and do other things to minimize the bleeding, and you would have a pretty good chance of surviving. A ten centimeter puncture to your stomach will most likelykill you without the aid of modern medicine.

gyrfalcon
28th February 2006, 06:43
Hello Bruce,
Bennet mentions in his book "Naginata - The Definite Guide..." that both that the use naginata and yari decreasing in use on the later battlefield when guns and swords became more common and the formations clooser. He also mentions that the naginata is less a womens weapon than we might think and that the woman/naginata conection is mostly a modern invention. I do doubt that the yari is more leathal than the naginata. You will die by both weapons but a slashing weapon will kill you faster as it will make bigger wounds. A person hit by an slashing weapon is also less likely to hit you back. That was at least the experience of the WWI soldier and author Erich Maria Remarque.

It's my impression that the lethality of the yari vs. the naginata has much less to do with the type of wound than with two other major considerations: Massing and armor. You can stack spearmen shoulder to shoulder, and they're perfectly competent after a few months training. You can't do the same with a naginata person, and it takes much longer to train one. I dont' care how skilled a naginata user you are, when you're faced with six spear users occupying the same space, you're not going to fare well.

Armor was also more vulnerable to stabbing than it was to slashing, especially as it improved. Weak spots in armor, on the other hand, always stay vulnerable to stabs.

JakobR
28th February 2006, 08:17
I do not doubt the woman/naginata connection and it is a fact that decoraded naginata were given as dowry to samurai ladies (I do not know how spread this tradition this, though). It is my impression that most of the connetion is late and and is mainly from the traveling circus from the Mejii period and the school naginata from Showa. Tendo ryu's naginata techniques are originally for men and Jigishinkage ryu's woman connetion is from the 19th century.

As for leathality vs spear I was talking about the leathality on the battle field. If you are dead it is of no use to you if your opponent ends up dead too one week later. I agree that a spear thrust can be very leathal towards the abdomen but this area is often protected and while a thrusting weapon (maily a special dagger and not a spear) better overcomes armor, a cutting weapon is better against arms and legs that are also often left unprotected. A thrusting weapon might also get stuck in the opponent - which was one argument for abandoning the bayonet for the sharpened showel during the pre-penicilling WWI. During ancient times sword wielding romans and celts were said to causing more casualties that the ordinary spear-formations of the greeks and the cartagians. I do not doubt that 6 spears are much more leathal than one naginata, though, but remember that the spear was also replaced by the slashing sword on the battlefield (A. Bennet).

J. L. Badgley
28th February 2006, 12:49
"The spear was replaced by the slashing sword on the battlefield"

??

Where do you get that impression. In just about everything I've seen of military history, spears and similar polearms became the method of fighting until some form of distance weapon seems to have made them obsolete, or at least obsolete as just spears. Slashing swords for officers and the like on horseback replaced the lance, but I'd argue that has a lot to do with the fact that the lance became ineffectual on the battlefield where you had so many pikemen (ie spears; naga-yari), and the role of cavalry changed; but you still needed a light, mobile weapon.

In most cases it isn't that the slashing sword is a better weapon, though, but that the hand-to-hand weapons are being replaced by guns and similar things, so the h-to-h weapons are becoming more of a simple sidearm and/or rank insignia.

-Joshua B.

JakobR
1st March 2006, 06:43
I agree with you. I am just arguing against the idea that a naginata/slashing weapon) does not cause leathal enough wounds compared with a spear/piercing weapon. My impression of that the spear is replaced by the sword (due to the crowded conditions on the 16th century Japanese battlefield I should ad) comes from Bennets "Naginata - The Definitive Guide" who in his turt quotes a paper by Karl Friday; "Off the Warpath...". In the book are also some wound statistics from the Muromachi period that puts spears far behind other weapons as causes of injury.

Stéphan Thériault
1st March 2006, 07:52
This is not about spears versus glaives; but I thought some might find this article interesting: http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml

J. L. Badgley
1st March 2006, 12:29
I agree with you. I am just arguing against the idea that a naginata/slashing weapon) does not cause leathal enough wounds compared with a spear/piercing weapon. My impression of that the spear is replaced by the sword (due to the crowded conditions on the 16th century Japanese battlefield I should ad) comes from Bennets "Naginata - The Definitive Guide" who in his turt quotes a paper by Karl Friday; "Off the Warpath...". In the book are also some wound statistics from the Muromachi period that puts spears far behind other weapons as causes of injury.

The telling thing is that the bow is still the primary weapon of the time and the sword is the sidearm. I didn't notice that any of the figures given show the results of 16th century fighting, where the yari had come into play in the form of massed pike formations. I don't entirely agree with Bennet that the spear disappeared because of 'crowded conditions' either, or that it was 'replaced' by the sword.

Rather, the primary weapon of the day seems to have been bow->spear & gun->gun. Throughout this the sword is a side-arm, rather than a primary battlefield weapon.

Note: I'd also be interested in what documents those results are from and whether or not they were skewed towards the higher-class bushi (ie the important people) vice the rank-and-file foot soldier, retainer, etc.

'Slashing' v. 'Piercing' is something that comes into play more with swords, I believe, where there does appear to be evidence that piercing wounds are more fatal than slashing wounds, although piercing wounds don't have the same stopping power; I'm not sure that such an argument works for yari v. naginata: the power of the yari seems to come more from the ability to have many troops close together with several rows of yari all pointed outwards towards your opponents.

-Josh

Eric Spinelli
1st March 2006, 17:04
Try this thread over at Sword Forum, where "Death and Dying" was discussed. Includes various links to battlefield statistics and stories of duels, etc. The discussion, while not weapon specific, mostly dealt with the different effects of slashing and piercing.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51438&highlight=death+and+dying

-Eric

Bruce Mitchell
1st March 2006, 17:04
I agree with you. I am just arguing against the idea that a naginata/slashing weapon) does not cause leathal enough wounds compared with a spear/piercing weapon. My impression of that the spear is replaced by the sword (due to the crowded conditions on the 16th century Japanese battlefield I should ad) comes from Bennets "Naginata - The Definitive Guide" who in his turt quotes a paper by Karl Friday; "Off the Warpath...". In the book are also some wound statistics from the Muromachi period that puts spears far behind other weapons as causes of injury.

Hi Jakob,
Let me clarify that I was not argue that the naginata is not capable of causing leathal wounds, but that puncture/piercing wounds have a higher rate of death attached (a hole through your chest is a hole through your chest, wether it was caused by a spear, an arrow, sword or naginata). However the morphology of a curved weapon means that as it penetrates deeper into an object (like a body) it has to push through more material, slowing it down, or reducing the depth of the penetration versus a straight weapon like a spear or rapier used with the same amount of force. A piercing weapon can punch through an arm or a leg and severe an artery fairly easily, while a slashing weapon requires greater precision to cut the same target. So a less skilled person increases their capacity for a leathal outcome with a piercing weapon.

In quoting Dr. Friday's paper you are ommiting critical information. Here is an excerpt from the peice in question:
"In other words, both studies roughly agree that missile weapons (bullets, arrows, rocks) accounted for 75% of the casualties reported during the pre-firearm era and 73% of the casualties occuring after the popularization of guns. Sword wounds, by contrast, amounted to just 5% of the casualties for both periods." (Friday, "Off the Warpath")

In the paragraph preceding the one quoted above sword wounds are grouped with cutting injuries (so they could have been caused by weapons such as the naginata). In the two reports that he draws the statistics from, one list 133 spear wounds vs. 21 sword wounds, and the second list 99 spear wounds vs. 40 sword wounds.

In re-reading my earlier post you will find we are in agreement as to why the spear was adopted (i.e. trooop massing).

glad2bhere
2nd March 2006, 16:03
Dear Folks:

I apologize in advance if this question has already been posed. I have not seen it raised here and hoped someone might be able to address it.

In Korean martial tradition we have a "spear sword" ("hyop-do") which bears a superficial similarity to the Japanese naginata. We also have a Wol-do (aka: "kwan dao") which is very close to the Chinese yinyeudao. I am wondering if anyone is able to advise why (or why not) the latter weapon never seems to have found favor in the Japanese traditions. I have noted on occasion that reference has been made to a heavy-bladed glaive in the Japanese catalogue of weapons and techniques but I am unable to recall the name of the item as I write this. Can anyone help with this? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

John Seavitt
2nd March 2006, 17:07
I have noted on occasion that reference has been made to a heavy-bladed glaive in the Japanese catalogue of weapons ...

I'm not familiar with the Chinese and/or Korean weapons you mention, but perhaps the nagamaki is along the lines you are thinking? There's folk in these parts who are exponents of koryu with these in their purview ...

John

glad2bhere
2nd March 2006, 17:14
Hi, John:

I am familiar with the nagimaki. The item that I am asking after is a polearm whose shaft is about 5 to 7 feet and is capped with a short spike at one end and a broad (5" wide), heavy (5 #) blade at the other. As I say its usually identified as a "kwan dao" in most of the common martial arts sources. Does this ring and bells?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

mikesigman@eart
2nd March 2006, 17:20
We also have a Wol-do (aka: "kwan dao") which is very close to the Chinese yinyeudao. I am wondering if anyone is able to advise why (or why not) the latter weapon never seems to have found favor in the Japanese traditions. I have noted on occasion that reference has been made to a heavy-bladed glaive in the Japanese catalogue of weapons and techniques but I am unable to recall the name of the item as I write this. Can anyone help with this? Thoughts? Comments? The Kuan Dao is named after General Kuan and is essentially just one of the many varieties of "Da Dao" (literally "big knife"). Further examples would be the Spring-Autumn Blade, Pu Dao (Horse Knife for cutting horse's legs), etc. The complete number of Chinese weapons is enormous. Some of the weapons in China are/were favored because of the famous Chinese people who supposedly used them... that would not necessarily carry over into Japan. So there are a number of reasons why the enormous number of different weapons within mainland China didn't have their cognates in Japan.

And of course, the naginata happens to be one of the weapons that had a direct Chinese antecedent (the Chang Dao), but various trends caught on in Japan, Japan originated some of their own weapon shapes, etc., so it doesn't really mean that much.

FWIW

Mike

kokumo
2nd March 2006, 17:56
Hi, John:

I am familiar with the nagimaki. The item that I am asking after is a polearm whose shaft is about 5 to 7 feet and is capped with a short spike at one end and a broad (5" wide), heavy (5 #) blade at the other. As I say its usually identified as a "kwan dao" in most of the common martial arts sources. Does this ring and bells?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce:

I'm familiar with that weapon. The only place I've seen such a thing in a "Japanese" context was actually in a collection of miniature weapons that were part of an esoteric buddhist altar arrangement.

The most obvious answer is that the blade of a kuan dao is three to four times as wide as necessary to support an edge of that length, and given the comparatively small supplies of iron available in Japan, the design of the kuan dao was too inefficient and expensive to gain any wide favor.

Speculative, I know, but it's a simple no-nonsense explanation that generally fits the conditions.

Best,

FL

Ellis Amdur
2nd March 2006, 21:28
Also, (following Fred), why make a weapon almost like the one you already have? There are several alternative theories of the origins:
1 - Japanese saw actual examples or pictorial renditions of the kwan dao and made a weapon they considered more effective, following the morphology of their sword blades
2 - Japanese "invented" the naginata - after all, the oldest characters mean "long sword," by, in effect, putting a sword blade on a shaft (I know that's too simplistic, so don't get started on length of tang, different shape). Sometime later (maybe 1 year, 3 months, maybe one century, three minutes), the kwan dao was seen for the first time, and the Japanese collectively thought - "Wow, they got a weapon sort of like ours, but heavier and not as suited to Japanese warfare styles." BTW - kwan dao were called bisento in the Japanese reading - but often, those three characters were READ as naginata - arbirarily, even though the characters actually aren't read that way. In effect, the writers were saying that a kwan dao was a Japanese naginata.

There are no records to prove the orgins either way. My essay on the development and history of the naginata in Old School includes both these and several other theories (that the naginata developed first from the "nata-naginata," a side-socketed farming tool on a shorter haft, that, in wartime was mounted on a longer shaft. The tanged naginata developed as an innovation from this).

Anyway, once the design was settled upon and proliferated, there was likely no more reason to change or include the Chinese style than there was to include other forms of swords, curved or straight, derived from Chinese models that they also must have seen.

Best

mikesigman@eart
2nd March 2006, 22:36
From "Introduction to Ancient Chinese Weapons" by Yang Jwing Ming:

http://www.neijia.com/MingWeapons.jpg


FWIW

Mike

Ellis Amdur
2nd March 2006, 23:08
Mike -

When was the Ming period (dates)?

The interesting question is that I've been corresponding with a scholar on Chinese history who wrote to me and said one of the most interesting research questions extant is the "reverse" influence (thru Wako, texts, and the import of Japanese weapons) back into China. We are discussing texts. BTW - before this goes WAY south - NOTHING ABOUT KI/KOKYU WAS MENTIONED!!!!! I've got a screen on my email to stop it before it gets started! :) He was specifically referring to Japanese weapons and their use.

The weapons in your picture certainly look like naginata. The Japanese naginata is know to have existed in it's present form from at least the year 1000.

What I got from the weapons scholars when I did my research is that all theories are plausible - they simply have no records to establish things one way or the other.

Best

mikesigman@eart
2nd March 2006, 23:20
When was the Ming period (dates)? Thirteen something to 16 something. But those weapons had been around a lot longer than that. If nothing else, just do some quick research on the oldest existing "Japanese Swords" and you'll see that the oldest one appears to have been made in China and was brought to Japan god-knows-when. Shook my faith in everything I thought I knew. :rolleyes:
The interesting question is that I've been corresponding with a scholar on Chinese history who wrote to me and said one of the most interesting research questions extant is the "reverse" influence (thru Wako, texts, and the import of Japanese weapons) back into China. We are discussing texts. BTW - before this goes WAY south - NOTHING ABOUT KI/KOKYU WAS MENTIONED!!!!! I've got a screen on my email to stop it before it gets started! :) He was specifically referring to Japanese weapons and their use. Well, I'm open to anything that is *factual*, Ellis. I don't play "my style, my country" with these things since I don't want to look like a chump to any expert that happens to read these things. The "reverse exchange" theories I've heard before, but I've never seen one of them definitively pan out. China was the big boy and it was trendy to copy them, not just in Japan, but all over. If you start ticking off the things that Japan "borrowed", like alphabet, Ki (gotcha), measuring system, geta, hair styles, kimonos, manufacturing techniques, and on and on and on, it gets hard to find much that went back to China (not that I'm saying nothing went back... I've just never seen it shown and I'd be happy to have a good example to wave at people).
What I got from the weapons scholars when I did my research is that all theories are plausible - they simply have no records to establish things one way or the other. One of the real problems is that most of the historians in relationship to the Japan-China stuff are going off of Japanese records. Chinese records only became available relatively recently, so I expect there will be some amendments to a lot of the current "histories".

FWIW

Mike

George Kohler
2nd March 2006, 23:38
The "reverse exchange" theories I've heard before, but I've never seen one of them definitively pan out. China was the big boy and it was trendy to copy them, not just in Japan, but all over.

http://www.hoplology.com/weapons_detail.asp?id=1

I'm sure Mr. Amdur has seen this and probably was part of his discussion with the Chinese history scholar.

Ellis Amdur
2nd March 2006, 23:52
Yup - that is part of the discussion. Allegedly, this text was taken from Japanese wako.

Here's what we don't have, as far as I'm aware, re Chinese and Japanese glaives:

1. What is the earliest date in which records (pictures or descriptions) or actual items of Chinese glaives is know to exist.
2. There are glaive like instruments called te-boko in the repository of Nara period artifacts (Shosoin) from the 7th century.
3. What are the earliest records, etc. of any Japanese awareness of Chinese glaives, and/or earliest awareness of Japanese glaives in China.

P.S. I'm not a partisan either way. The "leap" from katana to naginata was a small slide anyway. Any fool could think, "Hmm, if I had a longer hilt on this sword, they couldn't get close enough to cut me." Parallel evolution, so to speak. Or there might have been imports from China which have not survived in actuality or in records. There is no doubt whatsoever that the earlier socketed spear (hoko) and the tsurugi (straight sword came from China). No doubt whatsoever. Obviously Chinese had curved single edged swords from an early period. If they bear any relationship to the katana depends, I believe, on whether they used the same forging methods (the katana is curved in it's own particular way - others know far more about this than me).

Best

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 00:28
I think it's pretty well commonly accepted that the Japanese forging and tempering skills came from China (although everyone now "knows it" and mentions it offhand, it was basically unknown 10-20 years ago). Although I have no proof to back it up, I sort of tend to agree with Fred that the scarcity of iron may have had something to do with the smaller amount of iron/steel weapons in Japan... hard to say, though.

I remember talking to Liang Shou Yu once about the Japanese weapons and he said that what weapons were borrowed from China were mainly from the province areas closest to Japan (like the miao dao-type curved swords the katana appears to copy). So the weapons that were most famous or whatever in the greater mainland China probably were never emulated in Japan because they didn't come from the geographically closest areas. It's a thought, anyway. Who's going to know for sure?

FWIW

Mike

glad2bhere
3rd March 2006, 00:36
Admittedly I know very very little about the naginata. In fact this last sentence pretty much sums up ALL that I know about the naginata! What intrigues me the most is that the few demonstrations I have seen apparently use very little centrifugal force, seeming to rely to a greater degree on slashing/slicing motions rather than the slashing/hacking motion of the Wol-do. Since it is not an option to examine the Japanese use of the Kwan Dao as a weapon system in Japanaese traditions, I am wondering if anyone can at least speak with authority on the manner in which the method of naginata use developed. For instance, I wonder that the larger motions of the naginata would seem to require greater upper-body strength than the spear ("yari") yet the naginata remained a weapon associated with females and domestic defense and the yari seems to be more identified with men and use on the battlefield. Anyone? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
3rd March 2006, 01:40
I can't help much with dates regarding the yineudao ("kwan dao"). Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is often derided for his accuracies. He dates the weapon of the Chinese Three Kingdom Period (221 to 280AD). But, then again he also ascribes it to Kwan Yu (aka "Guan Yun-chang) (See: Ancient Chinese Weapons; pg26-27). By comparison, Kang Gewu ("Spring and Autumn of Chinese martial Arts") identifies the weapon but makes no comment regarding its use in the timeframe specified by Dr. Yang.

As far as the Korean sources go, the Wol-do and Hyop-dao were both added to the catalogue of Korean armorments in 1749 with the organization of the SHINBO USANG ("New Methods of Detailed Descriptions"). The book was completed in 1759 and later subsumed under the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI ("Comprehensive Illustrated manual of Martial Arts") published in 1795.(See: Kim tranlation; 2000; pg 27). Further, the record of Sejongs' inspection of his military in 1795 plainly shows illustrations of halberd-bearing escorts in his retinue while mounted troops are seen to carry both sabres and muskets.

The reason I have gone to the trouble of framing things as I have is that nested in the Ming Dynasty of the 16th century, General Qi Ji-guang (1528-1588) produced extraordinary changes in the manner by which Chinese warfare was promoted and prosecuted. Neither of his manuals --- JIN XIAO SHIN SHU and LIAN BING SHI JI makes mention of the sorts of polearms under discussion, though there are any number of spears, swords, flags and formations examined and discussed.
It may be of some benefit to examine the WU BEI SHI of MAO Yuan-i to examine his treatment-- if Columbia University will cooperate. :rolleyes:

If I had to guess, then, my best guess is that for the continental folks such weapons were imposing badges of office more than items for the battlefield. But thats just me. Certainly your mileage may vary. :)

Best Wishes,

Bruce

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 02:46
I can't help much with dates regarding the yineudao ("kwan dao"). Dr. Yang Jwing Ming is often derided for his accuracies. He dates the weapon of the Chinese Three Kingdom Period (221 to 280AD). But, then again he also ascribes it to Kwan Yu (aka "Guan Yun-chang) (See: Ancient Chinese Weapons; pg26-27). By comparison, Kang Gewu ("Spring and Autumn of Chinese martial Arts") identifies the weapon but makes no comment regarding its use in the timeframe specified by Dr. Yang. The Three Kingdom Period is probably right. The weapon is called a Da Dao generically and there are different sized and shaped blades with different names. General Kwan was famous for his use of the Da Dao and because he used it in personal matches, a certain style of it is called the Kwan Dao, but it was invented way, way before he was ever a historical figure.
The reason I have gone to the trouble of framing things as I have is that nested in the Ming Dynasty of the 16th century, General Qi Ji-guang (1528-1588) produced extraordinary changes in the manner by which Chinese warfare was promoted and prosecuted. Neither of his manuals --- JIN XIAO SHIN SHU and LIAN BING SHI JI makes mention of the sorts of polearms under discussion, though there are any number of spears, swords, flags and formations examined and discussed. I think the Da Dao was used even back in the Tang Dynasty, in the days of the Tang Shou (the "Tang" Hand, meaning the Chinese Hand aka the Chinese famous fighting arts that ruled the known world). Generally a "complete" martial art will have the "18 weapons" and one of those will be the Da Dao and I believe that's pretty ancient stuff. Right now, just running through my mind, the most ancient warrior drawings I can remember will contain someone with a Da Dao, FWIW.

Mike

Ellis Amdur
3rd March 2006, 02:48
The naginata was a "woman's weapon" only in relatively modern times, and it was a far lighter weapon than the battlefield weapon of the 10th - 16th centuries. The original use was for footsoldiers to attack men on horseback - and their horses (although this was apparently less than would be imagined - a horse was such a valuable commodity that it was far more attractive to kill the rider and capture the horse). It is really unknown why the naginata came to be associated symbolicly with women and the spear not. Some speculate that the thrusting weapon was considered less "clean" than the cutting weapon, given Jpaanese cultural bias'. Other's speculate that when Japanese bushi were pioneers, and women HAD to defend the homestead, the naginata was the weapon used and it therefore was associated on an archetypal level (and "old west" kind of mythology) whereas the yari, instituted later, was purely a military weapon assoicated with mass fighting tactics.
Anyway, the older naginata schools were quite "virile," in use - see TSKSR, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Kashima Shin-ryu, Araki-ryu for only a few examples. Schools more associated with women, such as the Tendo-ryu and Jikishin Kage-ryu naginatajutsu, use a far lighter practice weapon with far more "delicate" techniques.

Best

Tal
3rd March 2006, 15:02
How much "far lighter practice weapon" please?

---
Tal Bustan

glad2bhere
3rd March 2006, 15:17
"....Generally a "complete" martial art will have the "18 weapons" and one of those will be the Da Dao and I believe that's pretty ancient stuff. Right now, just running through my mind, the most ancient warrior drawings I can remember will contain someone with a Da Dao, FWIW...."

Dear Mike:

Here is my problem with the whole "18 Weapons" thing. Each time I pursue any research into this aspect of Korean/Chinese tradition the only people who seem to raise the idea of "ship pal gi" are those folks who are advocating for a system of MA marketed for commercial purposes or researchers looking for a manner of organizing things. For me, a lot times it gets into a mess not unlike trying to decide what an "internal" and an "external" art is. There's another morass.

Kang Gewu in his book identifies "18 weapons" as not 18 individual items but rather 18 methods of attack and defense. The result is that two methods of the 18 might be a "thrusting polearm" and a "hacking polearm" (and maybe even a "slashing polearm"). The system would remain the same, essentially, but times and circumstances might dictate the weapon of choice to be used as representing the method under consideration. Another method are the KWON BUP or "fist method". If one reads the actual BOXING CANON of General Qi, his entries only address the philosophy and attitude involved while the actual technique for expressing these attitudes was left to his instructors. However, this did not keep the comcept of using empty-handed techniques from inclusion as one of the "18 Weapon", yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

kokumo
3rd March 2006, 15:47
How much "far lighter practice weapon" please?

---
Tal Bustan

"Standard" kihon-yo wood naginata of the kind used for kata practice in Atarashii Naginata or related koryu arts run about one kilo.

"Standard" naginata for the other schools Ellis noted run about two kilos.

The noogie-stick I've been working with for the last year or so is somewhere between three and four kilos.

FL

thomas54
3rd March 2006, 16:10
The interesting question is that I've been corresponding with a scholar on Chinese history who wrote to me and said one of the most interesting research questions extant is the "reverse" influence (thru Wako, texts, and the import of Japanese weapons) back into China. We are discussing texts. He was specifically referring to Japanese weapons and their use.

Best

Well I fear that this a bit off the topic since it has little to do with Naginata, but in fact the history of interaction between JMA and CMA seems to be very interesting and also complex.

A very interesting and most important work in this field is, I think, the work of the Chinese scholar( History and also a martial artist of Baji-quan) Ma Ming-da.
He has recently(2000) published a book which title is "Shuo jian lun cong(discourse of the sword)", and this book (which is basically a collection of martial arts related essays) contains an essay which title is “Li-shi shang Zhong Ri Chao jian-dao wu-yun jia-liu kao (A consideration about the historical interaction among Chinese, Japanese and Korean sword art)”.

In this essay he postulates several things.
1. That with the forging methods of steel the straight double edged sword was introduced to Japan (this is not new), BUT with it that probably a method of the double hand sword art, which originates from the “Jing-chu” locality (todays Si-chuan), were also introduced and that maybe this became the basis of the later single edged curved (Katana which original pronounciation was Kataha “single edged”)and double hand sword art which we today recognize as the Japanese sword art.
2. That already in the end of the 10th century the Chinese were aware of the Japanese katana. The famous literati and poet Ou Yang-xiu wrote a poem about the Japanese sword already during the early 11th century and a Japanese monk from the “Ken Tou Shi” wrote in the end of the 10th century with astonishment that the Chinese were fond about the Japanese sword and that these were sold very expensive.
3. That after 10th century, import of the Japanese sword increased and reached it heights in the 15th to 16th century and deeply affected Chinese military martial arts of that time. It became a standard armour of the imperial guard and was also purchased later by generals who wanted to include this weapon to their armies.
4. The relationship between “Chosen Seifo” and the double edged and double hand sword art from the “Jing-chu” locality.
5. That today’s Miao-dao sword arts of china can be traced back to the “Kage-ryu”(which was obtained by General Qi) and other Chinese versions of Japanese sword manuals which were produced during the early 17th century (by the way Ma Ming-da himself or more accurate the Ma family preserve this Miao-dao arts).

Well there is not enough space about the essay of Dr. Ma’s article but it is a very interesting read.

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tfz/tys/ntt/p35.html
That is the original essay in Chinese.

http://www.h5.dion.ne.jp/~rekidai/minda/jyoshou.htm
This is the translated Japanese version (the translation in my opinion is not good, although)

http://www.h5.dion.ne.jp/~rekidai/renmeiki/framepage7.htm
A very interesting photo about the “Mia-dao” in the modern era(maybe you have to push the next button). After establishing the “Institute of National Martial Art (Guo-shu Guan)”, there were several attempts to include Miao-dao arts in the Chinese martial arts curriculam. This Photo shows one of these attempts. They are using Japanese Bogu of Kendo.

glad2bhere
3rd March 2006, 16:46
"Standard" kihon-yo wood naginata of the kind used for kata practice in Atarashii Naginata or related koryu arts run about one kilo.

"Standard" naginata for the other schools Ellis noted run about two kilos.

The noogie-stick I've been working with for the last year or so is somewhere between three and four kilos.

FL

Are you sure you are stating this correctly, Fred?

At a conversion of 1 kilogram = 2.2 Eng Pounds I am understanding you to say that the item you are wielding could be as much as 8.8 lbs. The Ching Yin yeu dao I have (less the spike on the end) comes in at 7 # (give or take). That must be a rather ponderous piece of wood you are slinging around, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

kokumo
3rd March 2006, 16:56
Are you sure you are stating this correctly, Fred?

At a conversion of 1 kilogram = 2.2 Eng Pounds I am understanding you to say that the item you are wielding could be as much as 8.8 lbs. The Ching Yin yeu dao I have (less the spike on the end) comes in at 7 # (give or take). That must be a rather ponderous piece of wood you are slinging around, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce:

Yes, I'm certain. "Mongo" was crafted from Ipe, which is a pretty dense wood, and started out at 9 # but he's been on the "light regular sanding diet" for a while. I just haven't weighed him to see how much weight he's lost.

Ponderous? Let's say that he's heavy enough that I best not depend on upper body strength to move him.

FL

glad2bhere
3rd March 2006, 17:28
:eek: !!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ron Tisdale
3rd March 2006, 18:06
Well, I've seen him swing it...and he does pretty good, upper body notwithstanding... ;)

Best,
Ron

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 18:14
"....Generally a "complete" martial art will have the "18 weapons" and one of those will be the Da Dao and I believe that's pretty ancient stuff. Right now, just running through my mind, the most ancient warrior drawings I can remember will contain someone with a Da Dao, FWIW...."

Dear Mike:

Here is my problem with the whole "18 Weapons" thing. Each time I pursue any research into this aspect of Korean/Chinese tradition the only people who seem to raise the idea of "ship pal gi" are those folks who are advocating for a system of MA marketed for commercial purposes or researchers looking for a manner of organizing things. For me, a lot times it gets into a mess not unlike trying to decide what an "internal" and an "external" art is. There's another morass.

Kang Gewu in his book identifies "18 weapons" as not 18 individual items but rather 18 methods of attack and defense. The result is that two methods of the 18 might be a "thrusting polearm" and a "hacking polearm" (and maybe even a "slashing polearm"). The system would remain the same, essentially, but times and circumstances might dictate the weapon of choice to be used as representing the method under consideration. Another method are the KWON BUP or "fist method". If one reads the actual BOXING CANON of General Qi, his entries only address the philosophy and attitude involved while the actual technique for expressing these attitudes was left to his instructors. However, this did not keep the comcept of using empty-handed techniques from inclusion as one of the "18 Weapon", yes? Thoughts? Bruce, let me state upfront that my knowledge in this area is limited and involves mostly conversational stuff I've had with native Chinese martial artists over the years. That being said, you can find fairly easily displays of the "18 weapons" (including the Da Dao) in a lot of places. Many martial arts, as I understand it, *say* they do all 18 weapons, but in reality in many cases they combine forms, etc. Chen-style Taiji is a "complete martial art" of the "18 weapons" variety, but in actuality they only retain and practice a certain amount of weapons (Da Dao is one of them, BTW). I didn't mean to get off onto this tangent... I was simply trying to say that the ancient idea of the "18 Weapons" goes back a long, long way and the Da Dao, which we were talking about, has always been prominent in them. I.e., my point was mainly that the Da Dao is not a recent weapon.

Regards,

Mike

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 18:20
Yes, I'm certain. "Mongo" was crafted from Ipe, which is a pretty dense wood, and started out at 9 # but he's been on the "light regular sanding diet" for a while. I just haven't weighed him to see how much weight he's lost.

Ponderous? Let's say that he's heavy enough that I best not depend on upper body strength to move him. I'd be interested in seeing what you do with that pole, Fred. If you'll send me a video of your exercising with it, I'll return the favor and show you what I do with my long white-waxwood poles. Just as a friendly exchange of info.

Regards,

Mike

kokumo
3rd March 2006, 19:14
Mike:

Dude! Tape trading is for Deadheads. Now if you want to exchange something for a CD of the last live show Bob Marley and the Wailers did.....

Come to an enbu, then you can fuss about what you just saw in person, while I'm packing the sticks away in their bag.

Best,

FL

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 20:03
Mike:

Dude! Tape trading is for Deadheads. Now if you want to exchange something for a CD of the last live show Bob Marley and the Wailers did.....

Come to an enbu, then you can fuss about what you just saw in person, while I'm packing the sticks away in their bag.Sorry, I gave up enbu's and chocolate eclairs for Lent. ;)

OK, so I've seen a few Naginata tournaments and I know Jean Yien in Denver and have worked some with her. I was basically curious if there was anyone in Naginata/yari arts who did things other than repeat movements within the standard thrust, withdraw, deflect, etc., modes of Naginata. The heavy pole caught my attention as a "maybe". Within the Chen-style Taiji, the major auxiliary strength builder for Taiji power, shaking-power, etc., is the long white-waxwood pole, as a for instance. Just feeling to see if there was anything like it in some of the Japanese arts.

FWIW

Mike

kokumo
3rd March 2006, 20:18
Mike:

I don't know about the possible comparisons at all, not knowing enough about the Chinese side.

But (shameless plug alert) anybody who is interested in seeing a naginata demo (and maybe a few more koryu and gendai demos) is welcome to come to the seminar on Kendo-no-Kata Meik Skoss is teaching at NJIT the weekend of April 7-9. I'll put the details regarding the time and date of the demo/s on the seminar thread devoted to that event when we pin it down.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32988

What does have some resonance with your remarks about various things is the extent to which I found that the (arguably over) heavy practice weapon militantly enforces the need for a strong connection with the ground and the need to generate force below the belly button rather than above it.

Best,

Fred

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 21:05
I don't know about the possible comparisons at all, not knowing enough about the Chinese side. (snip interesting demo info)

What does have some resonance with your remarks about various things is the extent to which I found that the (arguably over) heavy practice weapon militantly enforces the need for a strong connection with the ground and the need to generate force below the belly button rather than above it.
Hi Fred:

Well, despite my protestations, I've had my share of bona fide style "misperceptions" (read "snobbery") and I'm humbled into admitting that some of the body mechanics I thought were the turf of a "select few martial arts" turn out to be the turf **at higher levels** of most bona fide Asian martial arts (this includes the so-called "koryu", BTW, which means that they dipped into the same well for their "hidden" basics... a crack in the facade, it seems). So the point is that I would be *stunned* if at some time and at some level, naginata weilders hadn't used the same basic body-mechanics basics. Ergo, the comparisons and "resonances" should be inescapable, by and large. ;^)

Do you practice any types of sudden power releases in your pole training, by any chance? If so, can you give me any general ideas of what you do?

Regards,

Mike

kokumo
3rd March 2006, 21:42
Do you practice any types of sudden power releases in your pole training, by any chance? If so, can you give me any general ideas of what you do?

Regards,

Mike

Mike,

Insert shameless plug #2 for Ellis' second book, OLD SCHOOL, which gives as good an overview as you'll find in print.

There are also a number of video clips of this stuff floating around on the web.

But the thing is (this is an eerie echo of some other conversations I've heard here), a) you're asking somebody who is still using the Arthur Murray method footprints on the floor or a mental equivalent. and b) even at this level, what it looks like and what it feels like are totally different.

Mostly, I do kata.

If I'm not doing kata (and this is applicable to any kind of taijutsu or weapons solo practice), I'll take strings of one to three movements out of the kata and do them over and over like suburi or tanren, messing with the rhythm and the attack, just like my piano teacher taught me to do many years ago: start out with an even rhythm. Practice slowly until you get it right ten times in a row. Then start over. Change the even rhythm to long/short/long/short. Practice slowly until you get it right ten times in a row. Then start over. Change the long/short to short/long. Practice till 10x correct. Now that you're feeling very good about yourself, change the rhythm to long/short/short/short. Repeat till 10x correct. Now change the rhythm to short/short/short/long. Repeat till 10x correct.

At this point, you can work on speed, or move to 3/4 time. Later on, try 5/8, 7/8, and 9/8, just for fun.

Best,

Fred

mikesigman@eart
3rd March 2006, 22:07
Gotcha. Thanks, for sharing, Fred. ;)

Mike

glad2bhere
4th March 2006, 17:55
Though the thread is on naginata, the discussion stepped into Chinese traditions. I imagine most people know about this resource, but for those who don't, some may find various articles interesting. BTW the URL was just a kind of random choice. Certainly you will want to make your way to the main page to investigate other articles and functions. Enjoy.

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showtopic=9913

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
4th March 2006, 18:16
Hi all,

I view Atarashii Naginata as being pretty removed from koryu naginata, aside from the Zen Nichi Kata (seitei naginata vs naginata, kind of like kendo no kata). The Zen Nichi Kata is uncharacteristic in that it is naginata vs. naginata (focus being on naginata only rather than allowing for other weapons to be incorporated), but the techniques are borrowed from koryu. Also, there are a few techniques left in AN that are "old", such as hanmi/moving along a straight line and the idea of withdrawing the forward leg (out of contact range of the opponent) and placing the naginata vertically while making certain hand changes (mochikae). But otherwise, it is structured much like kendo IMO, for better or worse, however with more of an emphasis on kata than shiai - at least outside of Japan. Practice in the US from my experience is more 80 percent kata/form training and 20 percent bogu training, where kendo tends to be 80 percent bogu training and 20 percent other.

Using a "heavier" weapon like a naginata would require using your whole body to move, developing tanden/ki ken tai ichi coordinated body movement. However, I don't agree that most solid wood kata naginata are the same weight as real naginata. I have a large hand made kata naginata (combat-grade hickory) and a shin-shinto period antique naginata of medium size. The antique is much heavier due to the blade and koshirae, and the manipulations are different, or at least feel different if you force AN techniques on them, due to the movement of the center of balance on the weapon. Tendo-ryu, for example, uses wooden Kata naginata for practice, but emphasized moving the naginata as if it was heavier and balanced like a real naginata.

Mr. Sigman, fancy meeting you here. This is just my opinion, but from my experience naginata was not developed to a level of sophistication that the sword arts were in the Edo period. They contain the basic principles and elements, traditional Japanese style generation of power and movement, tanden and kokyu power, kiai, etc., but I think generally you'll have to look at the Otome-ryu (feif/domain sponsored arts) to find the more sophisticated deeper principles you are looking for. If there are many of these principles in common between CMA and JMA, I'm guessing they were not included in JMA as commonly or openly as in CMA.

Regards,

mikesigman@eart
4th March 2006, 18:38
Using a "heavier" weapon like a naginata would require using your whole body to move, developing tanden/ki ken tai ichi coordinated body movement. Hi Nathan:

Well, it's back to the "basic principles" I was talking about. I agree that someone can develop power and *some* tanden development with a heavy weapon, but it's considered to be a dead-end. It's like doing suburi with a heavy weapon in order to develop the tanden.... some tanden will be developed but the ki will dead-end. People should always start with extremely light weapons if they want to develop the ki. If they want brute power and some middle-development, use heavy weapons. An old trick to really screw up someone you don't like is to encourage them to use heavy weapons. ;)

I'm trying to think of a way to be clearer about the heavy-weapons and tanden subject. Try this: An alternative suggestion that would perhaps be useful in naginata training would be to take a narrow sort of flexible pole (sometimes I use 1.25" extruded nylon rod about 7 feet long, bought from Professional Plastics). Maybe tape a light weight to the tip, but very light. Hold the pole against the side of the belly to make a connection to the torso, back hand at butt-end of pole just behind the body, front hand comfortably out in the front. Turn the pole tip in circles but concentrate on controlling the actual tip with the tanden. Circles, up-downs, side-to-sides, etc. The middle is braced against the ground and is controlling the tip. Not too hard to do when the pole is in contact with the torso, but when you move the arms and pole away from the torso, it's hard to keep the control of the tip just to the tanden... people with strong arms and shoulders will pretty surely revert to mostly arm. That's what happens with a too-heavy weapon, as well. BTW, that control of the tip with the dantien is exactly how the control of a blade or of a calligraphy brush is done. Naginata tips would also follow that type of control.... problem is that many people insert their own idea of what "move from the dantien" means, and often they're somewhat off-base.


This is just my opinion, but from my experience naginata was not developed to a level of sophistication that the sword arts were in the Edo period. They contain the basic principles and elements, traditional Japanese style generation of power and movement, tanden and kokyu power, kiai, etc., but I think generally you'll have to look at the Otome-ryu (feif/domain sponsored arts) to find the more sophisticated deeper principles you are looking for. If there are many of these principles in common between CMA and JMA, I'm guessing they were not included in JMA as commonly or openly as in CMA. Good points. I'll have to see if I can find any good sources to follow up with... thanks for the suggestions.

I think you'll find that the same priniciples are common in the weapons that are in the hand trainings, whether in CMA or JMA. Sometimes the somewhat different approaches of various art will leave someone with the impression that they're seeing radically different things, but in my experience the commonalities far exceed the differences. Of course there are "levels of skill" and "additive tricks", etc., but everything stems from the same basic principles.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

kokumo
4th March 2006, 18:42
Using a "heavier" weapon like a naginata would require using your whole body to move, developing tanden/ki ken tai ichi coordinated body movement. However, I don't agree that most solid wood kata naginata are the same weight as real naginata. I have a large hand made kata naginata (combat-grade hickory) and a shin-shinto period antique naginata of medium size. The antique is much heavier due to the blade and koshirae, and the manipulations are different, or at least feel different if you force AN techniques on them, due to the movement of the center of balance on the weapon. Tendo-ryu, for example, uses wooden Kata naginata for practice, but emphasized moving the naginata as if it was heavier and balanced like a real naginata.


Hi Nathan:

This is an important point. Even if the weight of the hardwood kata naginata is the exactly the same as a properly mounted blade, the balance is different. Further, even if the "end to end" balance point is in exactly the same spot, the simple difference between a comparatively thin steel blade and a thick wooden blade changes the handling characteristics.

For all of those reasons, I remounted an old gladius banger blade on a four foot haft as a sort of crude nagamaki which I often use in solo practice, on the theory that just as handling a shinken or an iaito informs the use of a bokken, handling a bladed naginata or nagamaki will inform the use of wooden naginata or nagamaki.

The analogues are imperfect, but useful, particularly if you get Rumsfeldian about it and recognize that you may have go to battle with the naginata you have, not the naginata you wish you had.

Best,

FL

Bruce Mitchell
5th March 2006, 19:51
We had a little get together at the end of last summer and one of our senior members brought a "live" naginata and we did a little tamishigiri. I want to emphasize here that the "naginata" was of low quality(Paul Chen) and the purpose of doing tamishigiri in this case was to provide the class members with an interestting experience.

That said, what I found was that when I used cuts from atarashi naginata I was unable to actually cut. But when I switched to using cuts from Tendo Ryu, I had no problems. The main difference between the two cutting styles was the use of tenouchi, not gross body movement.

I guess that my point here is that the techniques from the koryu school that I practice held up rather well under this circumstance, despite the fact that nobody in the art ever uses a live weapon. So while I agree with Fred's point about it being a good experience, if the system you are practicing has intergrity in it's transmission, that experince with a live weapon is whip cream on your pie, enjoyable but not essential.

Nathan Scott
6th March 2006, 06:35
Hi Bruce,

Sounds like fun. Something I've been meaning to do for a long time. Can't say I'm surprised with your results.

Mr. Sigman,

Interesting idea for tanden training. I have to admit though that when it comes to solo conditioning, expecially for weapons, I still basically do what I was taught, which is using heavier gear for conditioning. Light practice has benefit, in my experience, for developing a sensitivity for weapon balance (such as the tooth pick shiai naginata used in AN). But heavy weapon conditioning tends to cause your body to automaically seek an easier way of moving it, hence coordinated body movement. Your body already knows what it easiest, but has to fight with your pre-conditioning and brain to release unnecessary tension. Also, once the body is tired of muscling the heavy weaponry it will automatically revert to more efficient methods. This logic is used in aikido empty handed practice as well as other arts, and is an indirect way of teaching students how to use their body without spoon feeding them. I reckon you've heard much of this before, but I bring it up only to point out that heavy weapon conditioning is pretty common place in traditional JMA, and has produced positive results.

Another aspect is that most of us don't have enough free time every day to fit in 1,000 to 3,000 swings/reps with regular weighted weapons. Using heavier weapons allows for effective conditioning in far less swings/reps.

It could be that your method produces better results, I don't know. If I get the chance I'll play around with it, though I'm not in a position to modify the training methods in the arts I currently study.

Regards,

JakobR
6th March 2006, 22:12
Note: I'd also be interested in what documents those results are from and whether or not they were skewed towards the higher-class bushi (ie the important people) vice the rank-and-file foot soldier, retainer, etc.

Alexander Bennet quotes Tomas Conlans analyses of 1302 documents and 721 identifiable battle wounds from the Muromachi period; 73% arrows, 25% swords amd fewer than 2% spears. Suzuki Masaya examined 175 documents; 87% arrows, 8% swords or naginata, 1% spears. If I may speculate, high ranking bushi are more likely to be hit by arrows as they would stay away from the front line, but are as likely to be wounded by spears or swords as anybody else (but of course less likely to be wounded in the first place).


Anyway, the older naginata schools were quite "virile," in use - see TSKSR, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Kashima Shin-ryu, Araki-ryu for only a few examples. Schools more associated with women, such as the Tendo-ryu and Jikishin Kage-ryu naginatajutsu, use a far lighter practice weapon with far more "delicate" techniques.
Which is a bit surpricing as only the last two Tendo-ryu soke out of 16 are women. In what way is are techniques of Tendo-ryu "delicate" compared to other koryu and how is my Tendo-ryu naginata of 228 cm and ~2 kg a "far lighter practice weapon"?

That said, what I found was that when I used cuts from atarashi naginata I was unable to actually cut. But when I switched to using cuts from Tendo Ryu, I had no problems. The main difference between the two cutting styles was the use of tenouchi, not gross body movement.
Very interesting! Forgive my nerdyness but ecactly what type of AN cuts did not work? The shikake-oji, the ZN kata or the happoburi (or all of them)? I was told that the ZN kata did not work in RL but I am a bit surpriced to hear that as the actual cuts are supposed to be koryu.

Eric Spinelli
7th March 2006, 00:06
Though I already linked to a page on SwordForum that contained a link to this documentation, I thought it would be interesting to compare the statistics presented by Jakob Ryngen with some others.

Please note the time period of this respective data as some of this overlaps and some does not.


An analysis that I was just looking at
this morning, of documents reporting battlewounds, for example, shows that
between 1500 and 1560, out of some 620 casualties described, 368 were arrow
wounds, 124 were spear wounds, 96 were injuries from rocks (thrown by
slings or by hand), 18 were sword wounds, 7 were combined arrow and spear
wounds, 3 were combined arrow and sword wounds, 2 were combined rock and
spear wounds, and 2 were combined rock and arrow wounds. Between 1563
and 1600 (after the adoption of the gun) some 584 reported casualties break
down as follows: there were 263 gunshot victims, 126 arrow victims, 99
spear victims, 40 sword victims, 30 injured by rocks, and 26 injured by
combinations of the above (including one poor SOB who was shot by both guns
and arrows and stabbed by spears, and one who was speared, naginata-ed, and
cut with a sword). In other words, long distance weapons (arrows and
rocks) accounted for about 75% of the wounds received in the pre-gun era,
and about 72 % (arrows + guns + rocks) during the gunpowder era. Which is
to say that "traditional fighting" does not appear to have been heavily
centered on close-quarters clashes of swords or even of spears, except in
literary sources.

Summary (in percentages):

1500 - 1560 - 620 wounds*
Arrows: 61.3%
Spears: 21.5%
Rocks: 16.1%
Sword: 3.3%

1563-1600 - 558 wounds
Guns: 47.1%
Arrows: 22.6%
Spears: 17.7%
Sword: 7.1%
Rocks (projectile):5.4%

*Totals may exceed 100% as combinations were counted twice.

Compare this to the data provided above for the Muromachi Period (1333 - 1573). Dr. Friday makes only one reference to a naginata wound, but the real interest is in the increase of other pole-arm (spears) injuries that occured during the tail end of the Muromachi and onwards. I conjecture that the majority of the data presented by Mr. Ryngen was from a time period preceding the 16th century and that while there is an overlap of numbers, the data has little overlap.

-Eric

Ellis Amdur
7th March 2006, 02:50
Tendo-ryu became a primarily naginata school, so I was informed by the senior teachers, in about 1895, which the last male headmaster, Mitamura, became an instructor of a girl's school. In the 1970's, at least, there was Ten-ryu still extant in northern Japan, primarily a kenjutsu school, with very direct, aggressive methods, and heavy straight bokken resembling that of Kurama-ryu or Kashima Shinto-ryu.

As for a comparison regarding Tendo-ryu & Jikishin Kage-ryu vs. other ryu, have a look at such schools as TSKSR, Kashima Shin-ryu, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Chokugen-ryu. Most are on film here-and-there. For example, the Naginata Renmei had a film literally hidden away in a safe, which recorded naginata kata of 15 ryu. It was lent to me for a single day, over loud protests, at the kind advocacy of one of the senior teachers of Jikishin Kage-ryu. The film had not been viewed in years, and was crumpled in some places. I had to unspool the whole thing and rewind it before it could be viewed safely. Had it been left in the safe, with the tangles in the film untouched, this, the only copy, would have been lost, and a record of at least half the schools, now extinct would have been forever lost. It was clear rom the attitudes of the women in the office, all senior members of the renmei, that they could care less, that the Naginata Renmei had superseded these old useless antiques. This was not my impression alone - my advocate was embarassed and angry at the attitude displayed.

Perhaps they have, 25 years later, transferred this to DVD. Ask the renmei, perhaps through your Tendo-ryu teacher, if it is available. Perhaps times have changed.

Best

Tal
7th March 2006, 03:55
How wide practiced is Tendo-ryu currently around Japan? Where are its main dojos? Are there any male practicing at all in Japan?

---
Tal Bustan

JakobR
7th March 2006, 08:22
Tendo-ryu became a primarily naginata school, so I was informed by the senior teachers, in about 1895, which the last male headmaster, Mitamura, became an instructor of a girl's school. In the 1970's, at least, there was Ten-ryu still extant in northern Japan, primarily a kenjutsu school, with very direct, aggressive methods, and heavy straight bokken resembling that of Kurama-ryu or Kashima Shinto-ryu.
My information is that the kata Tendo-ryu did not change but the focus changed from the tachi kata to the naginata kata (there are over 160 kata to choose from). I have not heard about an existing Ten-ryu school until now, though. Is your impression that the kata have been changed?

As for a comparison regarding Tendo-ryu & Jikishin Kage-ryu vs. other ryu, have a look at such schools as TSKSR, Kashima Shin-ryu, Kashima Shinto-ryu, Chokugen-ryu.
I have footage of several naginata kata of different ryuha. With my limited experience, I fail to see your mentioned difference in "virility" of the groups - especially if I compare practitioners of the same sex. I know however that the Jikishin Kage-ryu naginata kata (the most agressive I have seen) was created for women, but the Tendo-ryu kata were not.

Ask the renmei, perhaps through your Tendo-ryu teacher, if it is available. Perhaps times have changed.

I think it deserves to be mentioned that the Shin Getsu Kai of Tendo-ryu and the Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei are two totally different organizations.

glad2bhere
7th March 2006, 14:22
Dear Folks:

I am wondering if anyone can speak to the general method of execution of naginata techniques. The reason I am asking is due in large part to Nathan's comment about the weight of the weapon effecting execution. Please consider the following.

A standard I hear repeated often is that in the execution of Japanese sword technique there is a focus on pulling against the centrifugal force ("draw towards the belly") to impart a kind of "slashing" motion to the blade and facilitate cutting. Korean tradition has this as well as "press cutting" and "push cutting". I am wondering if one could draw a parallel to the use of weapon across the spectrum of Japanese instruments. For instance, perhaps the naginata is characterized by a "drawing action" while the O-Dachi ("field sword" would be more characterized by a "push cut".

If you are wondering where this is coming from, I have a thought that the biomechanics for the use of the weapon has much more to do with weight and its distribution than anything else. Following up on Nathans comment, were one to use a heavier weapon the methods would tend to approximate more "press cut" and "push cut" than drawing. However, as the weapon might evolve and become lighter perhaps the catalogue of techniques or the execution of individual kata might shift as well. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ellis Amdur
7th March 2006, 15:25
Mr. Ryngen -

1. I'm aware that the Shin Getsu-kai and the Naginata Renmei are different. But, the relationship between Tendo-ryu and the Renmei are closer than that of any other koryu - particularly given that atarashii naginata is primarily a development from Tendo-ryu. Anyway, my suggestion was based on the idea that, if they still have the film I referenced and if, then, they have not publicly distributed it yet, you will need some powerful support to have a chance of viewing it.
2. Jikishinkage-ryu is an exemplary group - they practice with tremendous energy and verve. But if they are your exemplar of "aggressive" naginata, then we have and will surely always have a very different perspective. Jikishinkage-ryu are explicitly developed to train the spirit through using the weapons in "awase" fashion. They do not target the body in the bulk of their strikes, but "meet in the middle." The school was developed, in the mid-1800's, for purposes far removed from 300 year previous battlefields.

Best

cxt
7th March 2006, 15:52
Ellis Amdur


Can't tell you how much it troubles me to read that such historical/archival material is so mis-handled.

I guess people rarely understand what they have lost until its gone.

And then its too late.


Chris Thomas

gyrfalcon
7th March 2006, 16:01
Dear Folks:

I am wondering if anyone can speak to the general method of execution of naginata techniques. The reason I am asking is due in large part to Nathan's comment about the weight of the weapon effecting execution. Please consider the following.

A standard I hear repeated often is that in the execution of Japanese sword technique there is a focus on pulling against the centrifugal force ("draw towards the belly") to impart a kind of "slashing" motion to the blade and facilitate cutting. Korean tradition has this as well as "press cutting" and "push cutting". I am wondering if one could draw a parallel to the use of weapon across the spectrum of Japanese instruments. For instance, perhaps the naginata is characterized by a "drawing action" while the O-Dachi ("field sword" would be more characterized by a "push cut".
Bruce

In my (admitted limited) experience, Japanese martial arts tend to discourage push-cuts. Cuts are typically described as going out in an arc, reaching the person, and then coming back in. Centrifugally speaking, this seems less likely to have you overextend and lose your postural integrity. The closest thing to "push cut" that I typically have seen is when you thrust with a bladed weapon. There's a good example of this in the ZNKR seitei kata, where you place the sword at the solar plexus and step in and push the sword down through the abdomen.

You see the push cut in kendo (and atarashii naginata sometimes) quite often, but this is much more an artifact of the competitive aspect than the battlefield aspect.

kokumo
7th March 2006, 16:33
In my (admitted limited) experience, Japanese martial arts tend to discourage push-cuts.

FWIW, this is characteristic of Japanese cooking knives and saws as well.

On the other hand, in French kitchen knife technique the push-cut tends to be dominant, though tomatoes are an exception, especially if your knife isn't as sharp as it ought to be.

FL

glad2bhere
7th March 2006, 18:29
"....The closest thing to "push cut" that I typically have seen is when you thrust with a bladed weapon. There's a good example of this in the ZNKR seitei kata, where you place the sword at the solar plexus and step in and push the sword down through the abdomen...."

Yes "push cuts" are often seen with heavier weapons as the "two hands sword" ("Ssang Soo Do") where the weight of the weapon is exploited. A series of exceptions are the skills utilized in close-combat loosely identified as "(inter-)locking guards". Often seen in sport application sans grappling, in Kum-Bup training the option to use grappling is maintained. In like manner, while the use of a sword in such close quarters might seem disadvantaged to some, the use of both the Push cut targeting a slice to the throat, or a thrust under the chin, or even a press cut to the wrist ,or forearm, are completely acceptable. FWIW.

BTW: It would be interesting to know if there are options available to the naginata-ka should a person get inside of their interval ("ma-ai"). Thoughts?
For the wol-do and hyup-do the alternative is to revert to "staff work" utilizing the weapons' shaft for checks and thrusts with the but of the weapon.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

JakobR
7th March 2006, 18:53
2. Jikishinkage-ryu is an exemplary group - they practice with tremendous energy and verve. But if they are your exemplar of "aggressive" naginata, then we have and will surely always have a very different perspective. Jikishinkage-ryu are explicitly developed to train the spirit through using the weapons in "awase" fashion. They do not target the body in the bulk of their strikes, but "meet in the middle." The school was developed, in the mid-1800's, for purposes far removed from 300 year previous battlefields.
We might have a different perspective, but if your description of "aggresive" and "virile" does not fit Jikishinkage-ryu I still do not understand why you put Tendo-ryu in the same bag. As you of course know Tendo-ryu was developed during the same era as the "virile" ryuha you mention.

J. L. Badgley
8th March 2006, 04:33
BTW: It would be interesting to know if there are options available to the naginata-ka should a person get inside of their interval ("ma-ai"). Thoughts? For the wol-do and hyup-do the alternative is to revert to "staff work" utilizing the weapons' shaft for checks and thrusts with the but of the weapon.

When you look at it, I'm not sure the range is really that much greater than a sword. Even in isshu-jiai with atarashi, where you are close to the ishi-zuki, I rarely feel like I am in too-maai with shinai. In Tendo Ryu the naginata is held more towards the middle, further choking up the range.

That said, there are many techniques that are used deceptively close to an opponent, when you consider polearms. The entire thing is a weapon, it just so happens that one side has a blade that's better for slicing bits off. There are many close techniques for thrusting with the ishizuki, and I've seen striking the legs with the haft of the weapon, and even using it to entangle the opponent when they are on top of you in an almost aikijutsu style movement.

Heck, just playing around with the SCA last year I had someone try to 'take away' my range by coming in close while I had a polearm (6'~7' long stick of rattan). I ended up with my haft on his sword arm between us, which worked surprisingly well as a lever to break his balance and send him falling down where I could have easily followed up with a quick strike (I really hadn't intended to do more than to force him to back away, but the lever really is a wonderful tool).

I really don't buy the idea that you can 'get inside' the range of someone who knows what they are doing. Maybe they are less likely to hit you with the blade, but that doesn't mean they don't have a nice big lever to use against you. I've always considered 'ma-ai' to be, more appropriately 'the interval within which one of you is dead'--try for that person not to be you!.


-Joshua B.

Nathan Scott
8th March 2006, 05:58
I'm a fairly large 6 foot tall guy, so the kata naginata I use is a large, hand made naginata, which was blessed years ago by senior Japanese instructors - except for Zen Nihon kata, which we are asked to still use the standard kata naginata to facilitate the distance and consistency of naginata vs. naginata techniques.

Tendo-ryu has "kasane-uchi" (piling-on cuts) type cuts, in which the back hand is anchored on the back hip and the cut drives down strongly over the top downward. The eguri-zuki (spiraling thrusts) are also pretty nasty. I don't know if the art is virile compared to some extinct naginata arts, but I've seen the kata performed pretty agressively, and have not found that there is anything delicate about the techniques, FWIW. I'm sure there are differences between what Ellis is referring to and arts like Tendo-ryu, but I'd just mention that my experience and observation is that Tendo-ryu does not feel like a "woman's" martial art to me, regardless of how it may compare to some other arts.

Regards,

Tal
8th March 2006, 15:47
I only did my first steps in Atarashi and Tendo-ryu in the past month or so. I have nothing to contribute to this exciting thread in content. But I followed it and excuse me everyone but "virile" interprets/sounds to me in the context of this thread as brute and muscular with heavier Naginata and less grace. While Tendo-ryu is mentioned here as more delicate in movement and maybe more sophistication.
As a pretty big guy myself as well, I know that personally what fascinates me in Naginata training is by far its subtle moves, precision and sophistication. So I find no offense or ill meaning in the terms Mr. Amdur decided to use.

---
Tal Bustan

glad2bhere
8th March 2006, 15:51
Had you found a school that teaches spear ("yari") would you have chosen that instead? Said another way, was there something unique about naginata that you did not find in sword or spear? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Tal
8th March 2006, 16:07
I was always fascinated of the Bo with its two-handed wielding. On the same time I thought it lacks the slashing grace of swords. When I stumbled one day over the Naginata I was hooked.

glad2bhere
8th March 2006, 17:11
Gotcha. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

JakobR
8th March 2006, 21:28
So I find no offense or ill meaning in the terms Mr. Amdur decided to use.
I'm still confused... TSKSR naginatajutsu heavy and virile (spinning and magical cursing) and Tendo-ryu light and delicate (straight on and no fuss)? :confused:

Bruce Mitchell
9th March 2006, 04:11
I'm still confused... TSKSR naginatajutsu heavy and virile (spinning and magical cursing) and Tendo-ryu light and delicate (straight on and no fuss)? :confused:

Jakob,
I think that we are very fortune to be able to have Mr. Amdur participate in this thread. Having read everything in English on the subject of naginata, I would say that Mr. Amdur has done as much or more research on this weapon and the arts related to it as anyone.

Of course as a Tendo Ryu student myself, I would not say that Tendo Ryu is less virile than some of the other koryu arts, but then again I have only seen Tendo Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu performed live. While I have seen video of a number of other arts and it is better than nothing, watching a video does not in any way equal the experience of seeing an art first hand.

I for one interprete Mr. Amdur's remarks a little bit differently and woulkd like to add my perspective. The other arts that he mentioned come directly from the battle field, so to speak. They were intended for use by people in armour, on uneven ground, fighting in a chaotic enviornment.

Tendo Ryu, by comparison, was developed only slightly later, but was developed as a dueling art, based on battle field arts; namely Kashima Shinto Ryu. Here is a brief outline:
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Iizasa Iga-no-kami Ienao)-->Kashima (Tsukahara Tosa-no-kami Ysumoto)-->(Tsukahara Shinzaemon Yasushige)-->Kashima Shinto Ryu (Tsukahara Bokuden Takamoto)-->Ten Ryu {now known as tendo Ryu} (Saito Denkibo). So many of the techniques are intended to be used under different circumstances and with a wider range of targets. So I would agree that they are maybe more delicate, like say a .45 calibre pistol vs M-16 rifle :)

From what I have observed, in most of the older (i.e. older then Tendo Ryu) arts that I have seen you have fairly even exchange between uchidachi and shidachi. In other words the swordsman is often attacking the naginata side.Now, my experience in Tendo Ryu is very limited, but of the 40-50 kata that I know out of the approximately 166, in only a couple does the tachi side actually "attack" the naginata side.

Another point here is that when Mr. Amdur refers to "lost" elements of Tendo Ryu, one of them is a set of tachi vs tachi kata. It no longer exist. Lamentable as this may be, what is done is done.

JakobR
9th March 2006, 06:45
Tendo Ryu, by comparison, was developed only slightly later, but was developed as a dueling art, based on battle field arts; namely Kashima Shinto Ryu. Here is a brief outline:
Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Iizasa Iga-no-kami Ienao)-->Kashima (Tsukahara Tosa-no-kami Ysumoto)-->(Tsukahara Shinzaemon Yasushige)-->Kashima Shinto Ryu (Tsukahara Bokuden Takamoto)-->Ten Ryu {now known as tendo Ryu} (Saito Denkibo). So many of the techniques are intended to be used under different circumstances and with a wider range of targets. So I would agree that they are maybe more delicate, like say a .45 calibre pistol vs M-16 rifle :)

Right, but Mr Allis (which I do respect too) also writes;
In the 1970's, at least, there was Ten-ryu still extant in northern Japan, primarily a kenjutsu school, with very direct, aggressive methods, and heavy straight bokken resembling that of Kurama-ryu or Kashima Shinto-ryu.
This gives the impression that the Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu and the Ten(do)-ryu kenjutsu are different - strange as they both are said to be invented by the founder. Was the naginatajutsu techniques changed to fit women (i.e. made light and delicate)? My information is that they where not.


Another point here is that when Mr. Amdur refers to "lost" elements of Tendo Ryu, one of them is a set of tachi vs tachi kata. It no longer exist. Lamentable as this may be, what is done is done.
I was told that 4 tachi vs tachi still exist within Tendo Ryu but are no longer taught to groups.

J. L. Badgley
9th March 2006, 12:24
I was told that 4 tachi vs tachi still exist within Tendo Ryu but are no longer taught to groups.

As it was explained to me: Ten/Tendo Ryu was a system that taught various arts, which included naginata and sword. However, it came to be taught strictly for its naginata (especially in the schools), and lost the knowledge of the other weapons, which were not taught (although I thought that modern Tendo Ryu did have kata for other weapons besides just the naginata, but I could be wrong--I've never seen them, I've only heard of them).

-Joshua B.

mews
9th March 2006, 17:36
Well, I've been told that Tendo-ryu is "naginata vs. lots of things" - but the naginata/tachi is the first piece learned.


mew

JakobR
9th March 2006, 18:12
Here is a reference about the weapons taught today within Tendo-ryu
http://koryu.com/guide/tendo.html

I do not mean to be offensive at all. English is not my native language and I prefer a direct dialoge. I argue because I sometimes get the impression people think that Tendo-ryu is not "real" naginatajutsu, too delicate or only for ladies. I am not saying that Mr Amdur does this but I belive that some people might interpret his analyze in this way.

Bruce Mitchell
9th March 2006, 22:27
Right, but Mr Allis (which I do respect too) also writes;
This gives the impression that the Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu and the Ten(do)-ryu kenjutsu are different - strange as they both are said to be invented by the founder.

I find it very plausible that at some point in the past there may have been a group practicing that was lead by a teacher who continued to focus on the tachi side of the art, probably because the group formed before the shift in focus to naginata as the primary weapon.


Was the naginatajutsu techniques changed to fit women (i.e. made light and delicate)? My information is that they where not.

As I understand it, Tendo Ryu Naginatajutsu changed to focus almost exclusively on the naginata portion of the syllabus. I do not believe that these techniques were changed.


I was told that 4 tachi vs tachi still exist within Tendo Ryu but are no longer taught to groups.

To the best of my knowledge, these techniques are officially considered "lost". There was a group that was practicing these, but I am not in a position to comment on that.

I do think that it is valid to compare two ryu and find one to be built more on subtle techniques than another. What springs to my mind here is the difference between an art like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and Ona-ha Itto Ryu. Both have impressive histories and are effective arts, but they come from different periods nad have a different look and feel.

That said though, what I think is most consistant between the different koryu is a distinct mindset that you do not find in most Gendai arts.

JakobR
10th March 2006, 06:44
To the best of my knowledge, these techniques are officially considered "lost". There was a group that was practicing these, but I am not in a position to comment on that.
You are probably correct. I might have mixed up the tachi vs tachi with a still taught number of tashi vs kodashi or tashi vs tanto. Tashi vs nito seems to be quite "virile" and thriving, though.

Ellis Amdur
10th March 2006, 21:28
Goodness me - Amazing how a single word can generate such discussion. My use of the word may be different than yours, whoever you are, but I tend of virle as being the attitude of walking through a door and carrying the paneling with you, rather than using a key to open it.

The Ten-ryu kata of northern Japan kata are different from those of the Tendo-ryu naginata folks (not abandoned kata - different kata) - the split occured several hundred years ago. And based on historical accounts, were Saito Denkibo alive today, I do not believe he would recognize the Tendo-ryu kata as being the same as what he did. My opinion is that Ten/Tendo-ryu is one that has undergone quite a bit of innovation in the hundreds of years of its existence.

As was pointed out by another reader, Tendo-ryu (this was explained to me directly by Abbe Toyoko) DOES have the sword attack at a range outside that of the naginata's reach, to allow the naginata an uninhibited cut. (One can refer to my essay with has quotes from Mitamura sensei and Abbe sensei). This is rather different from some of the other schools I've previously mentioned, in which both sword and naginata are equally targeting the body. One can make a strong case from the value of this type of kata/practice, but it does create a very different dynamic between uke and shitachi than one sees in the Sengoku bugei.

I believe Tendo-ryu technique is quite subtle and powerful (Sawada-sensei, for example, defeated a wonderful jukendo teacher in a shiai in the 1930's). Mitamura sensei spoke of the kata requiring the "cut and thrust" spirit. It is, however, a product of the size of the practice weapon, which corresponds rather explicitly with the size and morphology to what are sometimes termed "onna naginata" - the lighter naginata given to and wielded by women from the Edo period onward. I would be curious for a Tendo-ryu practitioner to take, for example, a TSKSR naginata - actual size and weight - and to do Tendo-ryu kata at full speed, with a good uketachi on sword. If one can bring Tendo-ryu techniques off, as they are in kata - same speed and "power" - with that larger weight and length - then not only will I call the practitioner (male or female) "virile," I'll be really impressed. It is my opinion, based on what I've seen - and having informally sparred with a Tendo-ryu practitioner in limited free-style trainining, that the techniques are suited to the lighter, slendered, shorter weapon.


Frankly, when 95%+ of the practitioners for over 100 years have been Japanese women - with all the social dynamics of a woman dominated Japanese group - the kata must have, I believe strongly, changed a lot. This is one of the reasons for the near abandonment of the Nito, jo, and kusarigama kata as well - the majority of the women were content with just the naginata, which they regarded as THE women's weapon. I have described elsewhere how Abe Toyoko tried to retain these techniques, and the unfortunate circumstances which caused them - at least her teachings and she was surely the best of the few who still knew them - to be lost.

Let me give you another example. Some factions of Araki-ryu in Japan, contrary to that of their fathers and grandfathers, no longer practice any sort of shiai - grappling - be it judo, or in-house. In one generation, those factions have lost both virility and the integrity of kata. Yet they would assert they are doing the kata as done hundreds of years ago. Were Araki-ryu naginata methods, which are, at least in my faction, suited to a berserker, passed down in a Japanese women-dominated society (where, until modern times, grappling was anathema) for over 100 years, that berserker quality would be lost, and the kata would appear, I wager, with much the same quality as other naginata ryu dominated by women in Japan. AND - changes could be so radical that it can well be impossible to recover both substance and nuance of what is lost.

Within one or two generations, any ryu may radically change, given the population and knowledge base of the practitioners.

I'd also be very curious to see a) how many naginata kata there were pre-1895 and b) what they looked like before Tendo-ryu was taken over by women under the leadership of Mitamura Chiyo, and the practice of the weapon incorporated in girls' schools to strengthen young women's spirits for the coming wars against Russia, China and the West.

Best

Eric Montes
10th March 2006, 22:08
I'd also be very curious to see a) how many naginata kata there were pre-1895 and b) what they looked like before Tendo-ryu was taken over by women under the leadership of Mitamura Chiyo, and the practice of the weapon incorporated in girls' schools to strengthen young women's spirits for the coming wars against Russia, China and the West.

Ellis,
I think this is a very valid question. There are two major sets of naginata kata(which are then subdivided) in Tendo Ryu. Ko-naginata and O-naginata (respectively small and large). These were originally practiced with different size naginata. Unfortunately, specs for the large naginata were not effectively passed down and all techniques are practiced with the ko-naginata now.

Naginata as an educational tool has, I think, changed the dynamics of the practice and how it is viewed.
Koryu were originally taught, then deemed too dangerous
Mombusho kata were formulated, then modified then the Zen Nihon Naginata Renmei was formed. As the naginata became more and more associated with women's/girl's physical education the concept of shinken shobu has been lost.

Every year we lose more teachers who were trained in Koryu originally and attempted to imbue modern naginata practice with that same verve and vigor. I often feel that people often come to koryu naginata because it might "help their atarashii naginata practice" or "because my teacher said I should."

JakobR
10th March 2006, 23:29
The Ten-ryu kata of northern Japan kata are different from those of the Tendo-ryu naginata folks (not abandoned kata - different kata) - the split occured several hundred years ago.
This is rather upheaving news! The densho of Tendo-ryu lists 59 tachi vs tachi kata. They are supposed to be invented by the founder and left unchanged (well, by best intentions), but are as far as we know no longer taught and thus considered lost. Are you saying that these kata - no longer trained, taught or demonstrated - are different than the one of Ten-ryu? Have you been able to study the (supposed) different densho of Ten- and Tendo-ryu? What about the still taught nito, kusarigama and kodashi kata of Tendo-ryu? No such things in Ten-ryu that can prove the split? Could you tell us something more about the historical accounts that make you come to this conclusion?


As was pointed out by another reader, Tendo-ryu (this was explained to me directly by Abbe Toyoko) DOES have the sword attack at a range outside that of the naginata's reach, to allow the naginata an uninhibited cut.
Yes, this is a rather strange move if you want the kata to demostrate a real fight. Are you suggesting that such moves did not exist in Tendo-ryu before Mitamura Chiyo became the 15th soke (and the first female to do so)?


I would be curious for a Tendo-ryu practitioner to take, for example, a TSKSR naginata - actual size and weight - and to do Tendo-ryu kata at full speed, with a good uketachi on sword.

Rather unfair as Tendo-ryu techniques you mention probably are supposed to be performed with a shorter (but still real) naginata. Whatever we put into the world "virile" I hope we can agree that it has nothing to do with the length of the weapon.


Frankly, when 95%+ of the practitioners for over 100 years have been Japanese women - with all the social dynamics of a woman dominated Japanese group - the kata must have, I believe strongly, changed a lot. This is one of the reasons for the near abandonment of the Nito, jo, and kusarigama kata as well - the majority of the women were content with just the naginata, which they regarded as THE women's weapon. I have described elsewhere how Abe Toyoko tried to retain these techniques, and the unfortunate circumstances which caused them - at least her teachings and she was surely the best of the few who still knew them - to be lost.
As I have said only the last two soke were women and they were and are quite extraordinary. I find it quite hard to belive that they bowed under the pressure of the rest of the practitioners and their social dynamics, forgot their own teachings and changed the kata. Who taught Abe Toyoko? It is a historical fact that the focus of Tendo-ryu changed, but cutting off some branches from a pine doesn't make it a birch.

Tal
10th March 2006, 23:39
I believe Tendo-ryu technique is quite subtle and powerful ...

It is my opinion, based on what I've seen - and having informally sparred with a Tendo-ryu practitioner in limited free-style trainining, that the techniques are suited to the lighter, slendered, shorter weapon.

Frankly, when 95%+ of the practitioners for over 100 years have been Japanese women - with all the social dynamics of a woman dominated Japanese group - the kata must have, I believe strongly, changed a lot.

Mr. Amdur, based on these three quotes, regarding the art being indeed powerful, suited for the lighter weapon and that it must have changed over the past 100 years due to female dominance ... what chances would you have given a male using the lighter weapon with today's techniques in a duel with an equal trained person from the "virile" arts? Would the technique change and/or the use of lighter weapon make the art less effective in the hands of men or women alike?

Ellis Amdur
13th March 2006, 16:30
Tal -

I don't get into questions like that. As I recall from earlier posts, you are a new student of Tendo-ryu. Get really good and find out yourself.

Jacob -

My info in Ten-ryu is my recollection of a 25+ year old magazine article on Ten-ryu featuring two old men who had, as I recall, no students remaining. It may have been Kendo Nippon.
As for Tendo-ryu, not only the soke were women. As I said, 95% of the practitioners were women. The division between men and women in Japan is still vast, and in earlier generations, was a huge gulf. Two parallel cultures, with different ways of thinking and existing.
If you read the pre-war texts on teaching naginata in the schools, it was focused on building the ideal Japanese woman - saying that there were three components: home economics, sewing and naginata. The soke were part of the "social pressure" and, supported it. Exceptions were rebels. Abe Toyoko only was able to exist in that world because of her seniority. I watched her try to teach at one of the yearly Kansai Tendo-ryu get-togethers. (Her nickname, I was told, was the "gunso" - sergeant - not to her face). It was clear that her irritated and frustrated demands for martial integrity made almost everyone in the room quite uncomfortable. (I've got a photo of her talking to a group of senior instructors, including the soke - she was harshly criticizing the lack of martial integrity in everyone's practice, saying, essentially, that they were trying to look graceful and delicate, rather than using the naginata as a weapon should be used, and they all looked as if they wished they were elsewhere.)

Eric - I concur with your concurrence :)

I really don't have any more info to offer on this thread, so I'm not going to reply to questions that ask me to further speculate on things. Further research suggestions would be to find any remnants of Ten-ryu in northern Japan, and asking your own teachers if they see any changes in Tendo-ryu having occurred within their lifetime, or before. The problem with such questions is most people tentatively ask and get a generalized platitude in return. If you want anything useful, you need to get quite specific. Such as, "Was Tendo-ryu different before Mitamura Chiyo? Did she, or her husband before her, make changes to accomodate the demands of the school system and the government? What was Tendo-ryu like in the 17th century, when it was dominated by male practitioners? Saito Denkibo died at age 38, when his son was very young. The son was allegedly taught methods that his followers observed Saito using to deflect arrows with a spear - who taught the son, and what, if anything, was passed down, thereby, from Saito Denkibo? How did Tendo-ryu become primarily a naginata school, when it was a famous kenjutsu school in the Edo period, and there are no historical references to it as a naginata ryu? Ten-ryu kenjutsu figured in a remarkable number of duels in the Edo period. It used to have a really belligerent reputation. What was it about Ten-ryu that make it so prominent in conflicts with other ryu? When did that stop?
Etc. Etc. Etc. If you guys do not ask these questions soon, there will be no one left to answer them.

Best

Tal
13th March 2006, 20:18
I guess I will just have to take your advice :)

Nathan Scott
13th March 2006, 22:02
Ellis,

Speaking of asking questions, I ended up asking a very senior Tendo-ryu teacher from Japan a question about the ma-ai in Tendo-ryu supposedly being outside the intended ma-ai range. She said that it was not, and that the ma-ai IS correct as it is practiced. I don't know if that means the art changed, or someone is wrong, but I guess I bring this up to illustrate that while it can be difficult to discuss arts like this from the inside, it is even more difficult to discuss it from the outside. For those on the inside, I guess it means you keep your ears open, but follow your teacher, who hopefully is following the teachings of the headmaster and those that preceded them.

As far as using Tendo-ryu in shiai, that would be interesting to see. I've been told that at advanced levels of AN, it is good to consider how to apply koryu techniques to your shiai. But when using the extremely light-weight shiai naginata, all I've really seen are people relying on the quick whipping techniques of AN. I would agree that such AN techniques would not be possible with a heavier naginata.

Yours in virility,

JakobR
13th March 2006, 22:37
My info in Ten-ryu is my recollection of a 25+ year old magazine article on Ten-ryu featuring two old men who had, as I recall, no students remaining. It may have been Kendo Nippon.

This is very interesting and sad information. I find it very hard to belive that the Ten-ryu branch used a different set of kenjutsu kata than Tendo-ryu, though. The idea that Tendo-ryu branch lost their original Ten-ryu kenjutsu, invented 59 new tachi vs tachi kata, showed them to the reporters of Kendo Nippon, and lost them again is just ludicrous.


As for Tendo-ryu, not only the soke were women. As I said, 95% of the practitioners were women.

I am talking about the techiques according to the soke not those performed by the rest of the practitioners.


The soke were part of the "social pressure" and, supported it. Exceptions were rebels. Abe Toyoko only was able to exist in that world because of her seniority.

Who taught Abe Toyoko the effective techniques if not Mitamura Chiyo?


Such as, "Was Tendo-ryu different before Mitamura Chiyo? Did she, or her husband before her, make changes to accomodate the demands of the school system and the government? What was Tendo-ryu like in the 17th century, when it was dominated by male practitioners? Saito Denkibo died at age 38, when his son was very young. The son was allegedly taught methods that his followers observed Saito using to deflect arrows with a spear - who taught the son, and what, if anything, was passed down, thereby, from Saito Denkibo? How did Tendo-ryu become primarily a naginata school, when it was a famous kenjutsu school in the Edo period, and there are no historical references to it as a naginata ryu?
Most of this is already know and indeed answered in this thread - perhaps Eric and Bruce can elaborate futher. You do imply that the naginatajutsu is new in Tendo-ryu and does not exist in Ten-ryu. We might ask ourselves if Ten-ryu lacked naginata during the Edo period, why on earth did Mitamura invent kata for two different naginata (as Eric informs us) and how did she then loose the specs for the large one she had invented herself?

Bruce Mitchell
13th March 2006, 23:28
Just a quick reply here.

Ellis points out that Ryu can change within a single generation, and provides us with some excellent questions that we can ask to begin investigating. In my short time of practice I can attest to these changes. My teacher moved here from Japan about twenty years ago. There is a generation gap between her and the next generation of teachers now in Japan. When I have worked with this younger generation soem of their techniques are different. Why? Because when my teacher was studying with the current batch of senior teachers they were 30 years younger. So what you see with the younger generation of practitioners is that they have adopted smaller movements because they are copying what they see from older teachers who may not be as physically able as they were in the old days.

What I can say is that nobody will ever find the answer to these questions sitting behind a key board.

Jacob, please remember that a Ryu is different than a modern system. It is the property of Mitamura Sensei. The questions that you are asking are a: inflammatory responses to Elli's generous contributions, b: Have no real world value. Much of the information you are seeking is not "lost", it is just not available (nor should it be) to the public. Even if you found answers to all of your questions, How would it change your own practice of the art?

Nathan Scott
14th March 2006, 01:55
Here are a few more things I have in my notes:

There were different lines of Ten-ryu that were passed down. In the "mainline", prior to the 14th headmaster of Tendo-ryu, Mitamura (Akinori) Kengyo (1847-1931), there were 6 generations of Shimogawara. According to my notes, Kengyo is said to have learned Ten-ryu Heiho from the 12th headmaster Shimogawara, whose curriculum included kenjutsu, naginata and kusarigama. Don't have any years for the 12th generation Shimogawara, but it would be safe to assume it was sometime in the Edo period. Kengyo, the 14th (male) headmaster and Menkyo Kaiden, entered the Dai Nippon Butokukai, and while there, demonstrated Tendo-ryu. As a result of this demo, he was asked to teach at the Doshisha Women's School in Kyoto and began to specialize in teaching naginata to women.

Kengyo adopted Mitamura Chiyo (female) into his family in 1895 at the age of 10 years old to eventually succeed him in Tendo-ryu as the 15th headmaster. I would guess he selected a female to succeed him since he himself had ended up specializing in teaching naginata to women. The current headmaster, Mitamura Takeko Soke, is the 16th headmaster, and only the 2nd female in the lineage to lead the art.

Don't know if any of this is interesting, but I thought it might help some better understand how long women have been leading Tendo-ryu and when/why naginata became the focus. In the book "Nihon no Kobudo" (Nippon Budokan), the section on Tendo-ryu states that the founder Saito Denkibo was skilled in sword, spear and naginata. But even if you remain unconvinced that naginata existed in Tendo-ryu prior to the Meiji period, it is also well documented that the founder is said to have used a technique that was later called "Ichimonji no Midare" in his last fight using a kama-yari type polearm. While this principle *could* have been later adapted to Ten-ryu swordsmanship techniques as well, it would more likely have been incorporated into some kind of polearm curriculum, such as say, naginata. Interestingly, Ichimonji no Midare appears as the first naginata kata taught in Tendo-ryu. So all in all, it seems probable to me that some form/amount of naginata teachings have been transmitted through Tendo-ryu far prior to the Meiji period, if not since the beginning (Sengoku period).

Regards,

Bruce Mitchell
14th March 2006, 02:47
Interestingly, Ichimonji no Midare appears as the first naginata kata taught in Tendo-ryu. So all in all, it seems probable to me that some form/amount of naginata teachings have been transmitted through Tendo-ryu far prior to the Meiji period, if not since the beginning (Sengoku period).

Regards,

Great post Nathan,
As a point of interest, the set we now know as Shodan (the first set taught) was originally either the third or fourth set taught. It was moved to being the first set because the principles found in it are fundamental to the Ryu, and that way people could study those principles from the beginning.

JakobR
14th March 2006, 09:02
Dear Bruce,

I don't think you follow me. I am not primary asking questions about Tendo-ryu here. I am responding to Mr Ellis Amdur implication that Tendo-ryu uses different, modern and less "virile" kata than Ten-ryu did (if I read him right). This does not concur with what I previously have asked Tendo-ryu sensei and practitioners, read about the art, and indeed not what you, Nathan and Eric has mentioned here.

I am sorry if my responses seems inflammatory. I am only clumsy.

Bruce Mitchell
14th March 2006, 16:58
Dear Bruce,

I don't think you follow me. I am not primary asking questions about Tendo-ryu here. I am responding to Mr Ellis Amdur implication that Tendo-ryu uses different, modern and less "virile" kata than Ten-ryu did (if I read him right). This does not concur with what I previously have asked Tendo-ryu sensei and practitioners, read about the art, and indeed not what you, Nathan and Eric has mentioned here.

I am sorry if my responses seems inflammatory. I am only clumsy.

I understand your point. What I would agree with is that the way the kata are often practiced is less virile than it was in the past. You can see this difference watching the older sensei practice and comparing it to the younger generation.

In trying to be as reasonable and objective as possible, I would say that it is hard to prove that any Ryuha has ever been passed down entirely unchangedWithout unlimited access to the densho, you don't know if techniques were added aat a later time by some Soke. For instance, are the Nito waza original techniques or were that added at a period when Nito waza may have been the flavor of the month? That said, the public stance of most Ryuha is that they have been passed down unchanged. When you are representing the Ryu to the public (like we are here), and speaking as a representative, your responsibility is to the Ryu.

That said, your re-writing of Ellis' arguement was flawed, as is your premise concerning Ten-Ryu. Remember that while an art may have an unbroken line of soke, there may have been members in the past who received menkyo kaiden (full transmition) and may have gone off to teach on their own, thus continuing a line outside of the main line.

JakobR
14th March 2006, 20:53
I understand your point. What I would agree with is that the way the kata are often practiced is less virile than it was in the past. You can see this difference watching the older sensei practice and comparing it to the younger generation.
I do not deny this. I object to the assumption that the Tendo-ryu kata are less "virile" (in the meaning "inferior") to the other mentioned ryu-ha. I do not exclude this possibility, but I find that the conclusion drawn by Mr Amdur Ellis needs further argumentation. Decline is a threat to all ryu-ha, not Tendo-ryu in particular.


That said, your re-writing of Ellis' arguement was flawed, as is your premise concerning Ten-Ryu. Remember that while an art may have an unbroken line of soke, there may have been members in the past who received menkyo kaiden (full transmition) and may have gone off to teach on their own, thus continuing a line outside of the main line.
I do not exclude this possibility either. Mr Ellis assumed that the Tendo-ryu kenjutsu was different/changed/less virile than the kenjutsu of Ten-ryu from an article in Kendo Nippon. From what I understand no such comparasion has or can be made as "Mitamura-ha" Tendo-ryu kenjutsu was secret/lost at the time. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Ron Tisdale
14th March 2006, 21:18
A) It's Ellis Amdur...as in Mr. Ellis Amdur... geez.

B) oh never mind.

Best,
Ron

Nathan Scott
14th March 2006, 21:31
Hi Bruce,

Didn't know that - thanks.

Hughes
15th March 2006, 17:15
I object to the assumption that the Tendo-ryu kata are less "virile" (in the meaning "inferior") to the other mentioned ryu-ha.

Jakob,

That seems to me to be the point of misunderstanding: were did you get that impression that "less "virile"=inferior"?

When reading, I don't read Ellis' expression as contemptuous or even devaluating. I see more a difference of focus and goal.
On the continuous line which arose from battlefield survival tricks to budo, I'd place differently the ryu-ha, considering many subtle criteria (date of birth, transmission, etc...)

So what I read is that Jikishin-Kage-Ryu and Tendo-Ryu are implemented with more "subtle" and budo-elaborated goals (the spirit of awase as ellis said for exemple) than say Araki-Ryu. A more "crude" (if you prefer that word than "virile") system only focus on one thing: kill. fast.

That is the impression I got from this thread and the re-reading of Ellis article on the history of Araki-ryu.

But only having seen two different Ryu-ha (Tendo-Ryu and Toda-ha Buko-Ryu) and my main experience beeing AN, I won't go further.

By the way great thread, enjoyable and very instructive to read.

JakobR
15th March 2006, 19:24
That seems to me to be the point of misunderstanding: were did you get that impression that "less "virile"=inferior"?

I think this becomes more clear when Mr. Ellis Amdur (got it) elaborates futher. If I read him correctly it is his impression that the naginata kata of Tendo-ryu are a relatively new invention and that the school has been less able to keep its roots than other mentioned ryu-ha.


So what I read is that Jikishin-Kage-Ryu and Tendo-Ryu are implemented with more "subtle" and budo-elaborated goals (the spirit of awase as ellis said for exemple) than say Araki-Ryu. A more "crude" (if you prefer that word than "virile") system only focus on one thing: kill. fast.
We are talking here about several schools of naginata, of which I have seen kata performances of seven. In my humble opinion there is no possibility to sort these different styles into thw two categories 'virile' and 'non-virile' styles. They all have undergone internal and independent developments during in some cases many hundreds of years, and their different styles cannot be characterized so crudely. I would however not put Jikishin-Kage-Ryu naginatajutsu in the same bag as Tendo-ryu naginatajutsu (as Mr Amdur does) because, to my knowledge, the latter kata were created some hundred years earlier.

Tal
15th March 2006, 19:41
This thread is like a mini encyclopedia :-)

I wonder please, how common was in battles the use of the lighter Naginata (like the one used by Tendo-Ryu)? Was this kind of Naginata in use by Samurai or Sohei?

JakobR
16th March 2006, 11:39
It is generally said that the longer and heavier naginata is for the battle field (i.e "old") and shorter is for dueling ("new"). From what I understand this is now always the case. I have seen pictures of women training with long naginata in full kinomo, and woodprints of samurai in full armor wielding a naginata about the same length as themselves, and there certainly were bladed weapons on the battlefield shorter than the average naginata. I am also not convinced that a light practice weapon means that your techniques are meant for a lighter but real naginata. We see a range of different weights of bokuto - does that mean that the heavier bokuto resembles a heavier katana? I think not.

Also, the Tendo-ryu practice naginata (the shorter one as Eric informs us) is often considered short. While certainly shorter than the one of TSKSR it does look about average when compared to other schools. Specs anyone?

Bruce Mitchell
18th March 2006, 22:35
If one can bring Tendo-ryu techniques off, as they are in kata - same speed and "power" - with that larger weight and length - then not only will I call the practitioner (male or female) "virile," I'll be really impressed.

Actually, I have been itching to get my hands on a TSKSR naginata. I'm sure it would be a little more challenging, but if you think about it, the size of a current Tendo-ryu naginata to a five foot tall, one hundred pound woman compared to your average male practicioner would make the length and weight porportional. At 5'10" and 200lbs, I'm honestly not that worried about how the weight and size differential would affect my technique.

A few years ago I commisioned Kim Taylor to make me a naginata that is 7'8", and about three times the diameter of a standard kata-naginata (I'm not really sure about the weight). It slows me down a little, but has been fun to experiment with. I'm not sure how this weapon compares to the size and weight of the afore mentioned TSKSR naginata, but it is probably closer than the standard kata naginata.

Bruce Mitchell
26th March 2006, 01:17
Great post Nathan,
As a point of interest, the set we now know as Shodan (the first set taught) was originally either the third or fourth set taught. It was moved to being the first set because the principles found in it are fundamental to the Ryu, and that way people could study those principles from the beginning.

Hi all,
I may have been incorrect in this posting. I will double check my info and get back to you all, but please disregard the above info for the time being.

Nathan Scott
15th May 2006, 21:35
Hi all,

I had a couple of old threads related to polearms that were interesting moved over here. One relates to this subject, but since that thread and this one are both pretty long, I figured it's best to keep them independent.

Women & the Naginata (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16473)

Ishizuki (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31193)

Regards,