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Lee Mc'pherson
9th February 2006, 09:50
How much "realism" do you believe is required in training so as to train at the most effective but at the same time safe and injury free enviroment.

I do not personally believe that injuries can be completely taken out of the equasion and at the same time the training to be of any merit and use.

the question is really where do you draw the line on the "no pain no gain" saying???

NinjaSPies
9th February 2006, 14:55
well actually thats a good question. but my shidoshi actually adressed that last night in training. he basically said to do the techniques slowly, get people into the crazy locks slowly and out of them slowly. it still hurts but youre learning how much pain they can handle and then you can apply it to real life. well it was something along those lines.

Evan London
9th February 2006, 17:40
In my opinion, if you are injuring people while training you have not developed the proper control to train at the speed you are going at and/or your uke is not ready to operate at the level you are training at. All techniques done in the x-kans can be learned adequately and done effectively if proper control and technique is established by both the tori AND the uke. As they say, it takes two to tango.

You do not need to hurt people to learn to use our art effectively. Period.

Gakkousei
9th February 2006, 22:08
well actually thats a good question. but my shidoshi actually adressed that last night in training. he basically said to do the techniques slowly, get people into the crazy locks slowly and out of them slowly. it still hurts but youre learning how much pain they can handle and then you can apply it to real life. well it was something along those lines.

So would this mean ALWAYS do it slowly, or do it slowly until you and your training partner have learned them adequately enough?

See, i'm coming from the idea that the techniques should be learned and practiced slowly, but once you get to a point where you have a good firm grasp on them(what some would call mastering them) then you should kick it up a notch and add speed and activeness to it. Otherwise you will never know for sure if the technique, as you perform it, will work under those kinds of conditions, or if it will crumble and you'll have to keep working on it.

IMO, a good instructor is one who is able to find that sweet spot of intensity that is fast and hard enough to be considered quite realistic, but falls just short of dangerous, and guides his students in training at that level once they have become adept enough at performing the techniques slowly.

That may be somewhat of an ideal, but good ideals are meant to be strived for, not necessarily attained.

Ninjaintraining
9th February 2006, 22:54
the way ive been learning is the teacher shows it on usually the best student and then does it to each of the other students to show what it feels like. then after you practice it you try it on the teacher. i think this is a very good idea b/c you need to know what the moves you are doing feel like ( to an extent like with out breaking anything). then you get to try it on someone who knows what it feels like.


dan waterbury

paradoxbox
9th February 2006, 23:12
I am not an instructor, just a person who thinks all techniques we study should be able to be used for self defense.

My opinion is that you should understand the technique comfortably before trying it at full speed or sparring. I do not believe that you should master a technique before trying it at full speed because in this way it will hold back your learning, it will take longer.

Put it this way, when I train someone to do a job, fly a plane, or whatever, I don't give them a book and say read it through for a month and then put them in the cockpit of a plane by themselves after their 4 weeks is up. I will ease a person into what they're doing and then gradually let them take it in their own direction, giving them input as they go. Mistakes are made, but you need to make mistakes in order to know how something is done properly.

If you're only doing things the way someone told you to do them, or you're doing things very slowly (in the case of training) you're never really going to discover why you're doing the things you do, you'll simply be following some instructions someone gave you.

Just my opinion on training, not only in martial arts but life in general.

DWeidman
14th February 2006, 00:07
I am not an instructor, just a person who thinks all techniques we study should be able to be used for self defense.

Then you shouldn't be in this art. This is Budo (combat) - and as such, there are a whole host of techniques that are not "self-defense" related.

;-)

Other than that, I agree with your post. However, there are a whole group of techniques you can't practice at full speed... only the entry to them... as they go on much to fast to *ukemi* out of...

The entry, however.... ah... that is where it all happens...

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

paradoxbox
14th February 2006, 02:04
self defense is combat, if you are defending yourself with force then you are engaged in combat, and vice versa. It's the same thing. Unless of course you are sucker punching someone ;)

saru1968
14th February 2006, 02:33
I think what Daniel is getting at is that there is a whole lot of techniques which you would be hard pressed to class as self defense( in a legal sense)

tweety
14th February 2006, 08:57
I don't think that speed = reality. I think that proper distance = reality.

Evan London
14th February 2006, 12:32
I don't think that speed = reality. I think that proper distance = reality.

To build on that; Speed, Distance and TIMING make reaity. All are vital, but must be learned with care and patientce.

Ev

tricam
14th February 2006, 13:08
"Control". Go as fast or as slow as you need to in order to maintain control of the technique.

Garryn
14th February 2006, 13:09
I'm a beginner. One thing I have noticed is that when attempting to do a technique slowly, to study the "what goes where and does what" the technique feels wrong and is difficult to work out whats wrong. Its only when the instructor looks that its pointed out that more speed/intention is actually required to get the correct distancing.

Evan London
14th February 2006, 18:22
Garryn,

That is correct, but the first step is to go slowly to make sure all your body parts are where they should be. Check your position in relation to your partner, and make sure you understand what movements you need to do to keep from getting injured, injuring your partner, and setting up the whole interaction to work correctly. The technique might not work at that speed, but you are setting up your foundation upon which you will build your technique. Once all those foundation pieces are in place then you can start adding the speed to work on timing, manipulation of your opponents weight/force/direction, as well as your own reflexes/responses, etc..

Many techniques require some component of speed, a dedcated attacker, etc., but if you are not in the correct position to take advantage of that speed, etc, what good is the technique?

Ev

Ninjaintraining
15th February 2006, 02:58
what ive been told is taijutsu is all about tecnique, distance and timing and if you have those then speed is not needed

lawman85
15th February 2006, 03:28
what ive been told is taijutsu is all about tecnique, distance and timing and if you have those then speed is not needed

I have never trained for "speed", only balance, distance, timing and flow. I have used my taijutsu in many "full speed" situations when arresting/fighting suspects, and have never been disappointed with the capability of the techniques. In a high stress situation things seem to slow down anyway.

Lee Mc'pherson
15th February 2006, 09:57
But you have trained with resistance then ?

DWeidman
15th February 2006, 22:04
self defense is combat, if you are defending yourself with force then you are engaged in combat, and vice versa. It's the same thing. Unless of course you are sucker punching someone ;)

No it isn't. Not even close.

Battle is far different than Self Defense. The end goals and mindset are massively different...

Check out www.nononsenseselfdefense.com for more information on this if you want.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

lawman85
16th February 2006, 01:15
But you have trained with resistance then ?

Yes, with resistance. The fastest that we normally train at is 60 - 70 %, but it all depends on the control.

paradoxbox
16th February 2006, 02:30
No it isn't. Not even close.

Battle is far different than Self Defense. The end goals and mindset are massively different...

Check out www.nononsenseselfdefense.com for more information on this if you want.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

If you want to give that particular form of fighting a label, by all means go for it. But that is a modern invention and the techniques we use are all for combat and self defense simply by nature of the English language and the nature of the techniques, let's not split hairs please.

DWeidman
16th February 2006, 23:11
If you want to give that particular form of fighting a label, by all means go for it. But that is a modern invention and the techniques we use are all for combat and self defense simply by nature of the English language and the nature of the techniques, let's not split hairs please.

I don't think you understand. This isn't splitting hairs. This is a key compenent to our art. This is a foundational issue.

Let me repeat it again: The end goals and mindset are MASSIVELY different.

Did you even read the site?

-Daniel Weidman

Dale Seago
17th February 2006, 10:49
Dan's right. Different animals entirely.