A "LOST" KATA ?

[Yamantaka]

Recently, I was watching a tape of Kyuzo Mifune and I saw him demonstrating the NAGE URA NO KATA, composed of countering techniques to the NAGE NO KATA. I never heard of that Kata. Does anyone know anything about it?
Best
Yamantaka

[kusanku]

It may be the same as Kaeshi No Kata of reversing throws.

It used to be a standard kata, but it fell into disuse.

I recall beng the uke for it, when a visiting instructor came and demonstrated it.

The fun part is you are really supposed to try to throw tori, each time.

So you haveto be a lot better than uke, to make the kata work.

I wonder if that is why it fell into disuse.:-)

regards

[MarkF]

It must be remembered, too, that not all judo is Kodokan judo. As with all things political, it did not take long for others to change or add kata to the syllabus. Gaeshi no kata is still in use, but is refered to simply as those throws of the gokyo no waza, that is, in Kodokan judo.

A good example is that of go no sen no kata which is not included in the kodokan syllabus, but the waza definitely are. There is also the waza of ura nage, which by the Kodokan, is simply one nage waza. There are several throws which would meet that description as well, but no nage ura no kata is included.

Other schools which developed their own kata might be the Butokukai and Waseda University. The Butokukai is especially well known as the "School of political judo" since many did not like the hold Kano had on judo and opened their own, with their own rankings, etc. People of all types went there, but it was well-known to politicians, as well as yakuza types.

Just like the many schools of jujutsu which died, many kata of judo were known at one time, and then discarded, but appropriate waza of these kata which did not meet with the approval of the Kodokan, were kept.

Counter attacks are simply those waza which can be reversed, switched, or as many continuous attacks necessary to do the job, so many such counters are not even catalogued, at least to my knowledge.

Mark

[Yamantaka]

The curious thing is the NAGE URA NO KATA is demonstrated by Mifune (a kodokan man) in this tape, as one of the judo kata. And it is extremely beautiful! Anyway, I agree with Mark : Tori should be much better than uke for this kata and that may very well be the reason why it is not practiced anymore. A pity...
Best
Ubaldo.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]It must be remembered, too, that not all judo is Kodokan judo. As with all things political, it did not take long for others to change or add kata to the syllabus. Gaeshi no kata is still in use, but is refered to simply as those throws of the gokyo no waza, that is, in Kodokan judo.A good example is that of go no sen no kata which is not included in the kodokan syllabus, but the waza definitely are. There is also the waza of ura nage, which by the Kodokan, is simply one nage waza. There are several throws which would meet that description as well, but no nage ura no kata is included.
Other schools which developed their own kata might be the Butokukai and Waseda University. The Butokukai is especially well known as the "School of political judo" since many did not like the hold Kano had on judo and opened their own, with their own rankings, etc. People of all types went there, but it was well-known to politicians, as well as yakuza types.
Just like the many schools of jujutsu which died, many kata of judo were known at one time, and then discarded, but appropriate waza of these kata which did not meet with the approval of the Kodokan, were kept.
Counter attacks are simply those waza which can be reversed, switched, or as many continuous attacks necessary to do the job, so many such counters are not even catalogued, at least to my knowledge.
Mark

[MarkF]

Hi, Ubaldo,
There was a time when Mifune and the Kodokan split, and never did get settled before his death. Of course today, he is memorialized at the Kodokan, as they would have a rough time of it fighting "Mifune ryu." He was a different level all together. Kano's tongue and academics is how judo was described, but Mifune was the first modern student who could mold it into something else.

Even then, the Kodokan didn't like anyone to disagree with them. Mifune didn't disagree, he just took it to places no one else could go. I think instead of a bust of "the Admiral," an empty uwagi would be more fitting.

Mark

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Hi, Ubaldo,
There was a time when Mifune and the Kodokan split, and never did get settled before his death. Of course today, he is memorialized at the Kodokan, as they would have a rough time of it fighting "Mifune ryu." He was a different level all together. Kano's tongue and academics is how judo was described, but Mifune was the first modern student who could mold it into something else.
Even then, the Kodokan didn't like anyone to disagree with them. Mifune didn't disagree, he just took it to places no one else could go. I think instead of a bust of "the Admiral," an empty uwagi would be more fitting.

YAMANTAKA : Mark, that's a very interesting information, one I really didn't have. Could you tell me anything else about it? I'm a great fan of Mifune's judo and I'm interested in anything concerning him.
Anxious to hear from you
Best regards

[MarkF]

These are things one hears about but when actual confirmation is asked for, the powers that be deny it out of hand, or simply don't answer you.

My first teacher told us of this split, and this was in Mifune's latter years, when he would tell us of any changes in Mifune's health, or the day when he died, but at that time there were no plans to really memorialize him, the bust I spoke of is relatively new. In those latter days, even Kano dropped much of his interest in the school, and settled instead on spreading the word, attempting to bring sport into Japan, and exporting judo. Is there a message in that, do you think? Usually, there are reasons for everything, jealosy is not an easy sin to live with.

Well, basically, it came down to this. As early as 1895, Kano was feeling the displeasure of some, the Butokukai was formed, later it adopted its own judo. From the outside, things looked the same, and things such as grades, etc., were roughly equal.

Jigoro Kano could always find a way to explain his techniques, but others couldn't, and he said as much, saying there were few qualified teachers. This was an insult, but to some, it was a challenge. Kano's student, Kyuzo Mifune, was one who took up the challenge, being a man of litte academia, at least when compared to his teacher, he took the road of "punishment being its own reward." As John Cornish wrote, "the admiral didn't think a thing of seeing the slightest error, and forcing you to repeat the nage fifty, one hundred times." (paraphrased, as I am too lazy to search for the exact words.:) ) Cornish spoke of this when working out with Donn Draeger and also spoke of the little red marks on his body which would bleed from the intenseness of practice. Mifune may have only taken a look inside the door for a moment and made the correction and the punishment.

This was not the way of gentleness, and the Kodokan seemed not to like it. A rift developed (this happened earlier than Draeger and Cornish, but his comments concerning Mifune fit), not so far as to remove Mifune from the school, but the subject (Mifune) was something not spoken of, and there is not all that much, or at least it was that way, of Mifune, and when you hear or read the stories of how great he really was, it makes you wonder why there was not more, but mostly, if you recall, it comes from others, jujutsuka, aikidoka, aikijujutsuka. There is more film of Kano and his various uke around from the very early days of film, then there is of Mifune in his latter years, or at least, not until lately.

Anyway, I know of no real concrete serious evidence of this split, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. He came up with all sorts of different waza, but with his teacher gone for long periods, much was not recorded. The Kodokan today, will not answer me, or anyone else when questioned about this, but this wasn't a secret in the sixties. When I was invited to study at the Kodokan in the sixties, my teacher wasn't all that receptive, but did ask if I wanted to go. I couldn't as there was no money for it, but later when I asked, he simply said "there are better places to study judo than the Kodokan. It has long ceased to be THE place to learn judo."

Politics.

I do have some words somewhere which actually speak of this rift, but even here, the true evidence is lacking.

Darn, now you have piqued my interest. I will look for a more concrete mention of it.

[MarkF]

Ubaldo,
This is something concerning Cornish I received some time ago from Joe Svinth. I do not think he will mind it posted here. It explains some how Kyuzo taught judo, and how, possibly, it relates to this. I will say this is not stated at all, but it does state Mifune's message to us all. I do not think he was very concerned with shiai.:)
****************

From John Cornish, 109 Greengate Street, London, E13 08G, June 3, 2000

Donn Draeger and I were the first foreigners to do nage-no-kata in the All Japan Championships. We also did it in the Olympics in 1964.

I also participated in the first mixed display, with Nihon University's Matsushita. With him I also did it in the All Japan Industrial Judo Championships. That was another first. As tori, I did nage-no-kata with the Canadian Gedtis (is that the spelling?) in the All Japan Police Judo Championships. The dates are the problem, but the were between 1961 and 1964.

My notes are all over the place so I'm not sure how long it would take me to find out. I wrote an article in the London Budokwai's Judo Bulletin Issue No. 71, Oct. 1962 about Draeger, have you got it?

I remember a couple of things not in the article about him. When we got a sweat on he would wipe the sweat with a little towel (te-nugui) and such the sweat! (I was shown this method on a survival course for use in the desert.) Also no matter how cold he never wore an overcoat.

Both he and I had done lots of kata, but still put in lots of training, mostly under Otani Sensei (then 8th Dan now 10th Dan). Mifune did look in one session of training. This may have been accidental or not. He did not say anything to us but, and admiral doesn't talk to the ordinary seamen and may have passed his thoughts down the ranks. When training with Matsushita we had help from the Kodokan senseis but also an expert at Nihon University. Sorry, but I forget his name. In one session this sensei made us go through nage-no-kata three times with full power. That meant ninety hard falls for me, then made us do one throw he didn't like fifty times. Next day I had little pinpricks of blood coming out of my pores where I had made contact with the mat. I tell this to show how serious the training was. In my years as a British national coach for kata I have, and still do, try to explain the demonstration of kata is not important, it is the training and what you learn from the training that counts. For so much of judo, kata is the only way that training in safety can be carried out.

**********************

[efb8th]

Hi Ubaldo. (You too, Shorty.)

If you look closely, I believe the individual waza are captioned. If not, they are easily recognized. Take the time to identify the counters and list them. They are all stunningly appropriate. The nage ura no kata makes tori look great because he always throws the right counter!

Regards,

[gavinslater]

Hi All,

Was Jigaro Kano president of the Butokukai in 1905? I am sure I read this some where, I think it was on a French Judo site.

Regards,

Gavin.

[MarkF]

HI, Gavin,
I can't think of a single reason, not any proof of this. Since Kano was an academic, and not a militarist, the rumblings began in 1895 to set up a different school, one which taught judo and kendo, amoung others later on.

The usual comment concerning Kano was (paraphrased)"Kano reads books about philosophy. He has no military experience at all."

While I'm sure J. Kano visited the Butokukai, they had all ready in the 1900s or 1910s split from the Kodokan and fashioned their own school with rougly equal rankings, but a decidedly different take on this method of physical training. Many who spent time at the Butokukai included the emperor, politicians and yakuza types.

It was closed during WWII, but when the war was over, they did not know if they existed at all, but as Japan was being given the Japanese back their country, they voted to close entirely in 1949. What exists today as the Dai Nihon Butokukai, and particularly, the American version in the seventies, is not anywhere near the same organization, and basically, is good ol' boy club.

Mark

[MarkF]

Shorty, huh, well, where the hell have you been? Putting on your socks? This forum almost fell apart in your absence. Stop that!:)

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
It was closed during WWII, but when the war was over, they did not know if they existed at all, but as Japan was being given the Japanese back their country, they voted to close entirely in 1949. What exists today as the Dai Nihon Butokukai, and particularly, the American version in the seventies, is not anywhere near the same organization, and basically, is good ol' boy club.
Mark

YAMANTAKA : Hey, this is all news to me! Where can I find complete information about the Butokukai (pre and post war)?
(Besides new information by Mark. Uh, "shorty"? What's that?)
Good Christmas to you all

[efb8th]

Hi, Mark.

The melissa virus wipes out the hard drive very effectively if you don't have a new edition of Norton Antivirus. I have been under the influence. The system is now rebuilt almost to the previous comfort level, and I now have a big old burly guard on each entrance port ready to use his UZI to cut down any invaders. And yes, socks are a problem, but they are a necessity.

Stand by for a list of the Nage-Ura-no-Kata. I should post it today.

Regards,

[efb8th]

Hi, Mark.

Here is my list of the Nage Ura no Kata:

Throw: Countered By:

1. Uki Goshi / Tai Otoshi

2. Seoi Nage / Yoko Guruma

3. Kata Guruma / Sumi Gaeshi

4. Tai Otoshi / Kotsuri Goshi

5. Obi Otoshi / O Guruma

6. Okuri Ashi Harai / Tsubame Gaeshi

7. Kouchi Gari / Hiza Guruma

8. Ouchi Gari / Tomoe Nage

9. Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi / Sumi Otoshi

10. Uchi Mata / Tai Otoshi

11. Hane Goshi / Kari Gaeshi

12. Harai Goshi / Ushiro Goshi

13. Hane Goshi / Utsuri Goshi

14. Uki Goshi / Yoko Wakare

15. Ogoshi / Ippon Seoi Nage

As I noted before, most of the counters are self-explanitory. These counters are effective because they are the right counters for the entry postures of the original throws. Try them out; you'll be startled by their effectiveness.

Regards,

[MarkF]

Hi, Ed,
Welcome back. I'm sorry about the virus problems. I should update mine (V-shield). I get constant reminders, but I tend to put it on the back shelf ("there is always tomorrow kind of back shelf").

Basically, what I find in these counters, or "switch ups," is that there is always more than one for each, and every nage attempted, there is transition into another. Some are very difficult to see, and others are so obvious, as to make it difficult to show reason as to why it should be done in the first place. The first counter I had learned was to o soto gari to o soto gaeshi.

Here is a question about the first you listed; uki-goshi to tai otoshi. Is this the early (Mifune's) version of tai-otoshi? The one with out the leg thrown across? It makes sense, either way, to me.

Ubaldo,
"Shorty" is a reference to my incredible height. I know I am taller than most, all 5'3" of me.:D

Mark

[MarkF]

Ubaldo,
The following is from an email I received, concerning the butokukai, which contained a foreward by a professor of East Asian Language and Culture (It disbanded in 1946, actually).

The Dainippon Butokukai usually is described as a
"semi-governmental" or
"quasi-governmental" organization. In 1892-9-23 it was proposed that a
martial
art headquarters for Japan should be established in Kyoto to commemorate
the
2,000th anniversary of the founding of the city of Kyoto. In 1895-4-17
the
founding documents of the Dainippon Butokukai were registered with the
government. The honorary head of the organization was Prince Akihito
(1846--1903) and its president was Watanabe Chiaki (1843--1941), then
governor
of Kyoto Prefecture. Almost all the key figures in positions of power
were
government officials, but organizational charter did not formally state
that
the organization is under direct governmental control. In 1909-6-3 the
Butokukai became a Legal Person in the form of a Foundation. In
1905-10-1 the
Butokukai decided to start its own school. This school was registered
with
the
Ministry of Education in 1911-9-18 and became a legal educational
institution
in 1912-1-23. In 1942-3-21 the Butokukai was formally absorbed by the
national
government. Its headquarters were placed within the Ministry of Public
Welfare, but other operations were distributed among the Ministries of
Education, of State and the Army and Navy. (At this time the Nihon
Kobudo
Shinkokai, or Japanese Society for the Promotion of Old Martial Ways,
also was
absorbed into the Butokukai and through it into the government.) Once
the war
was lost, in 1945-8-15 the national government ordered the Butokukai to
be
reorganized once more in a way that disassociated it from the government.
Due
to the chaos of the time, this reorganization took several months to
complete.
Meanwhile, the Allied GHQ became established in Japan and issued its own
orders
that all ultra-nationalistic organizations should be disbanded. The
result
was
a great deal of confusion among members of the Butokukai. They did not
know if
they still existed or not. Surviving members of the national
headquarters
finally met in 1946-9-13 and formally disbanded. Some regional branches,
however, continued to operate. 1946-11-9 the national government issued
an
order disbanding all branches. With this act, the Dainippon Butokukai
came to
a complete end.
I do not know anything about the reorganization of the Dainippon
Butokukai in the 1950s. It is never mentioned in the standard reference
works. Matsumae Shigeyoshi, for example, lists all colleges,
universities,
and
national organizations involved in martial art affairs as an appendix in
his
book, Budô shisô no tankyû (1987). He mentions:

Kokusai Budô Daigaku (International Budo University)
Chûkyô Daigaku (Chukyo University)
Tôkai Daigaku (Tokai University)
Nihon Taiiku Daigaku (Nippon College of P.E.)
Kanoya Taiiku Daigaku (National Institute of Fitness and Sport in Kanoya)
Tsukuba Daigaku (Tsukuba University)
Nihon Budô Gakkai (Japanese Budo Academy)
Nihon Budôkan (The Budokan)
Nihon Budô Kyôgikai (Japanese Budo Association)
Nihon Kobudô Kyôkai (Japanese Traditional Budo Association)
Zenkoku Todôfukenritsu Budôkan Kyôgikai (Nationwide Association of
Prefectural Budo Organizations)

That's all. No Butokukai.

The most detailed account of the history of the Dainippon
Butokukai is
found in the following two books. The first one reprints all the primary
documents concerning the founding, development, and disbanding of the
Butokukai
(among many other topics). The second one explains the documents.

Nakamura Tamio. 1985. Shiryô kindai kendôshi (Sources for Early
Twentieth-Century History of Kendo). Tokyo: Shimatsu Shobô.

Nakamura Tamio. 1994. Kendô jiten: gijutsu to bunka no rekishi (Kendo
Gazetteer: A Technical and Cultural History). Tokyo: Shimatsu Shobô.

Two other important secondary sources are:

Hayashi Takatoshi. 1982. “Dainippon Butokukai no seikaku to tokuchô ni
tsuite” (Characteristics and Features of the Greater Japan Martial Virtue
Association). In Taiiku supôtsu shakaigaku kenkyû. Vol. 1. Tokyo:
Dôwa
Shoin.

Inoue, Shun. 1998a. “Budô: Invented Tradition in the Martial Arts.”
In The
Culture of Japan as Seen Through Its Leisure. Edited by Sepp Linhart and
Sabine
Fruhstuck. Albany: State University of New York Press.

***************

In these references, I don't think there is a mention of Kano being president, or even a member. The following is from Kronos at http://ejmas.com :

"The Japanese Ministry of Education encourages Japanese public school jujutsu instructors to adopt the safer techniques and tournament rules of Kodokan judo. Many commercial and private instructors refused to make these changes, as they saw no benefit in it. (The most famous holdout was Takeda Sokaku, who created Daito-ryu aiki jutsu around 1896, and whose student Ueshiba Morehei later established aikido.) And even public school instructors often resented Jigoro Kano’s leadership. (Many Japanese thought that Kano was too international in outlook.) To receive government subsidies without having to kowtow to Kano, politically conservative judo teachers organized an association that received its promotions directly from the Butokukai in Kyoto. Butokukai technical standards were approximately the same as those of the Kodokan, and the two groups merged with the banning of the Butokukai in 1946 and the establishment of the Japanese Judo Federation in 1949."

**********

Check out Stanley Pranin Budo Encyclopaedia at:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/reference/encyclopedia/D.htm

The above was a response to an email written by Joe Svinth:

"On Kronos, I maintain that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was created in 1895,
>that it was an organ of the Ministry of Education, and that it was
>disbanded in 1946 because its leaders included more than the usual
number
>of yakuza and Class A war criminals. During the 1950s it was
reorganized,
>but it still has more than the usual number of right wing nuts attached."

Additionally:

"The Great Japan Hall of Martial Arts Virtue (Dai Nihon Butokukai) is established at Kyoto. A department of the Ministry of Education, its original purpose was to foster patriotism and discipline among Japanese schoolboys. Its first leaders included a royal ruler, the mayor of Kyoto, a Shinto bishop, and the head of the Kyoto Chamber of Commerce. Toward this end, it patronized judo and kendo. By 1942 the Butokukai had become little more than an organ of Japanese right-wing nationalism, and its leaders included Prime Minister Hideki Tojo and several yakuza bosses. Moreover, the martial arts offered under its auspices had evolved from sports such as judo and sumo to military activities such as glider repair, grenade throwing, and bayonet fighting. Therefore the Allies closed the Butokukai in 1946"

So this is it in a nutshell (well, OK, I haven't read the source material, but is all I have).:)

If intersted, check out Kronos at: http://ejmas.com .

All other sources mentioned require a trip to the library, particularly a University library. If you can read Japanese, there are many more sources, but like I said, Kano probably never went there save when the Kodokan absorbed and disbanded the Butokukai. By then, you must have faith, as J. Kano passed away in 1938.

The 2,000 year anniversary is probably a myth, but since some people believe JMA to be 2000 to 3000 years in the making, it isn't hard to make up a history of anything.

As to today's Dai Nippon Butokukai, it probably isn't as good as the original, since a claim by them includes an 1100 year history.

Mark

[kusanku]

Ed Posts the Kata.

Thanks Ed, I'd been uke for it , but didn;t know the sequence.

To really feel just how effective these counters are, be uke for them and really throw the attacks hard.:-)

Harder you throw, harder you go.

Ed- gonna send you those url's now.

Regards, John aka Kusanku aka

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkF
[B]Ubaldo,
The following is from an email I received, concerning the butokukai, which contained a foreward by a professor of East Asian Language and Culture (It disbanded in 1946, actually).

YAMANTAKA : Thanks, Mark! You're on your way to become E-Budo's second Joe Svinth! :))
Best

[MarkF]

I take that as a major compliment, although Joe probably has other ideas.

What I've found is that links are easy, but reading them all takes major effort on one's part.

When I get there, I may have enough to be known as a good "link-clicker.":o

Mark