Okinawan Karate Training - Past / Present

[Prince Loeffler]

Here's a quote from Mr. Manry I found interesting:


Although it may be that Uechi Ryu takes it to the extreme, I feel that these sorts of techniques are being largely lost by more popular martial arts practices.

In the Bujinkan we also have a toe kick and our shakoken is similar to the boshiken he demonstrates in some ways. We strike with the thumb tip, then the finger tips, and finally the palm in one stroke.

Our boshiken is with a supported thumb off of the fist and is not so rigid in the hand formation. It is true that many in the Bujinkan do not practice these techniques to the point of being able to break many inches of wood. I usually practice mine on our hay bales.

We also practice shikan ken which is more like the traditional taiji fist or the leopard fist in chinese arts. None of these fists are easy to master, but they can be very disturbing to be hit with in a fight. We do practice to use them, at least those who are serious about their practice.

Takamatsu sensei had fearsome hands and feet, but his hands, fingers, and wrists always remained flexible. Hatsumi sensei and some other teachers have good conditioning but have not taken it to the extreme level. That Uechi sensei had clearly broken his middle fingers producing deformity.

Most of karate/martial arts has abandoned the use of these weapons in favor of the easier to learn seiken and mawashi geri. The shuto is not really even used any more except in tameshigiri. How has this changed our use of angling and distance? In searching for "safe" practice methods, are we losing something?

I think this is a shame. I applaud Uechi Ryu for preserving its techniques even when the practice of such things is not popular (were such things ever popular?).

Many old-timers can definetly fill this one in. How did the masters in Okinawa trained ? I have seen few trailer videos that showcased how the masters in Okinawa trained and they look really rough. Were most of the training considered dangerous thus leading to its removal to present day karate training curricullum ?

I do know several styles that takes training to the extreme. Oyama's Kyukoshin Karate and Ashihara Karate.

The last question would be, if free from the liability and the lawsuits, would we be willing to subject ourselves to such training ?

[Prince Loeffler]

Althought not an Okinawan source, I often wonder the if the reality of extreme training such as this:

http://www.youtube.com/w/Krazy-Martial-Arts?v=PiJRr0YVLlY&search=martial%20arts

Has any benefits.

[gmanry]

Most people are just soft and deluded. When I was younger and crazier, I did things in the name of training that most people would have thought were absolutely nuts. Typical Kyokushin style training is enough to make many people freak out, much less what the champions go through.

I also study iaido. Most people won't learn to sit in seiza, much less move around on their knees on hardwood, even with knee pads.

So, even if William Shakespeare had his way, people would not put up with most classical martial arts ways. Knuckle pushups on carpet is about as far as people will go.

In the Bujinkan we tend to lose them pretty quickly after the first day they experience koshijutsu (soft tissue techniques) or one of the nastier face planting techniques and joint submissions. It is a painful martial art to learn, and it isn't structured around belts and conspicuous commendations for the gratification of self-esteem. It hurts; it is largely unstructured in comparison to karate or TKD. You really have to take responsibility for your training.

Now, going overboard on crazy conditioning and such is not useful, but it amazes me the lack of attention span or fortitude that many people have. Also, the inability of people to examine something devoid of their media fueled preconceptions. I believe people want to be deceived by martial arts teachers. The fantasy is most definitely easier.

When some kids mom looks me in the eye, serious as a heart attack, and tells me her little johny is a black belt. Or that they learned all about the samurai sword in TKD class. They took their TKD bo staff (stick stick) certification test at a seminar...now they teach it. :rolleyes:

Yet, when I get them to my class. "Owww, that hurts!" Uhhh, it is a martial art...not dancing class. Hell, ballet hurts like hell to become good at it.

"No, relax, let your body relax, release your biceps, don't telegraph your movements, knees in line with your toes, no in the same direction....(sigh)...."

Oh, and call me Glenn, please.

[Prince Loeffler]

Good post Glenn ! Do you think that as the years progress, martial arts are getting more and more diluted ? Several years back I was a guest instructor of another dojo ( name of withheld) , As I led the class to stamina drills such as Mae geri 100 times per legs , 100 Gyaku Zuki...etc..I was told at the end of the class that it was a bad idea to subject his "pupil" to such "harsh" workout. The underlying fear he had that the harder the training to more will drop out. So much for tradition. :rolleyes:

[Blackwood]

Reminds me of another discussion. I don't pay for lessons to be drilled through 100 reps of things every class. I can do that for myself on my own time, by myself, without needing someone to watch or yell at me. Shame on me if I do not do it. Let me work out with the partner stuff and help me improve my kata, the things I can't necessarily do by myself.

I train on the makiwara. I lift weights. I work out on treadmill. I expect to walk out of the dojo hot and sweaty and tired, but not from doing 100s of kicks. From doing kata at 110%, from sparring for two minute rounds for half an hour, from rotating through bunkai.

The master's would show up at the dojo and wait for their turn to do a kata in front of their teacher. They would be given somethings to work on and then come back days or weeks later when they felt they had made progress on learning it. Of course they often worked in the fields or on boats during the day, getting more exercise then most of us desk jockeys do!

[gmanry]

At dojo where people have poor kihon because their instructors are lax, those types of repetitive things can be good, probably necessary. To touch on a mega-marathon workout every now and then can be good. Your training session may have been a wakeup call for some to pursue better training.

However, I agree with the second post as well. In many schools the repetition of kihon/kata has replaced the learning of the art. Hundreds of kicks and punches to fill up time and nobody is doing training on their own time to work things out for themselves. They have carved out 2 hours twice a week to show up and "get a workout."

I have seen people who have trained for 5 -10 years that way and they are still absolutely horrible after 10 years of training. That is inexcusable and it is not necessarily all of the student's fault. The instructor is just as complacent often times or worse yet has no clue that what they are doing is a huge waste of time.

That is not martial arts training that is exercise and many dojo would be much better off if those people would just go join a gym. Martial arts are NOT for everyone and you do not have the right to a watered down approach for your own recreational gratification.

I do blame some instructors to who are too strict in the other direction. For example, being cross with a student because the student stumbled upon something on their own and saying,"I didn't teach you that, you shouldn't practice that until I teach you that." Now in terms of a whole kata or something large like that, it is, of course, best to wait, but I have seen it done over ridiculous things that really had more to do with the teacher's sense of control and ego. This sort of attitude also retards progress and is NOT traditional. It is the sign of a teacher who is being passed up by his/her students in many cases.

No, I think what I am very disgusted by are the people who waste space. I was teaching a kickboxing/knockdown class, beginner's level, and had some young ladies show up. They had done Tae Bo and some YMCA aerobic/kickbox thing. My class was appropriate for beginners and although I kept the pace, I went around and corrected. They looked at me like I had called them dirty names they were so offended that I would try to correct them. They were there to bounce around, and quite frankly were not interested in learning anything. They did not come back.

People like this are useless. I had some guys do the same thing, too much ego, not there to learn, just to score on the ladies or try to show me how much they had learned in the six months of what-ever do they had learned.
These types of people are useless in a dojo and waste everyone's time.

I do not want to sound like some curmudgeon who thinks the up and coming generation is useless. I do not feel that way, but I do think we have crippled some of them because we did basically make it bad to ever tell them they were doing something incorrectly. It is a martial arts CLASS or SCHOOL that they have joined. "I am sorry that your perusal of Tae Kwon Do for Idiots may not have informed you to the degree that you wished."

[SFE]

http://media.putfile.com/Silat-conditioning

I agree that most people in MAs don't push themselves past the point of slight physical discomfort, who know's if that is a mental block or just poor example by their sensei (I know that I sure don't know the reason :p)...

It's unfortunate, but it's important to remember that there is a line between what pushes a person to be better (or others) and to what ends up being dangerous. Thanks guys, very much, for bringing this up!!

I've seen too many vids of dumb kids jumping off their roofs trying to break a table a la the WWE!!

[Prince Loeffler]

At dojo where people have poor kihon because their instructors are lax, those types of repetitive things can be good, probably necessary. To touch on a mega-marathon workout every now and then can be good. Your training session may have been a wakeup call for some to pursue better training.

Yes, this was my exact attitude when I saw how their Gyaku Zuki and Mae Geri were and I decided to make them do it until they get it right.


However, I agree with the second post as well. In many schools the repetition of kihon/kata has replaced the learning of the art. Hundreds of kicks and punches to fill up time and nobody is doing training on their own time to work things out for themselves. They have carved out 2 hours twice a week to show up and "get a workout."

we do repetition for warm-ups, But I do make it a point that they are learning something new daily. My Class is structered to be One hour we spend 15 minutes Kihon, 15 minutes Kata , 15 minutes Ippon Kumite and the last 15 minutes Jiyu Kumite. Every one required to show up 15 minutes early for class to do their own stretching and basic cardio.



I have seen people who have trained for 5 -10 years that way and they are still absolutely horrible after 10 years of training. That is inexcusable and it is not necessarily all of the student's fault. The instructor is just as complacent often times or worse yet has no clue that what they are doing is a huge waste of time.

Welcome to dojo commercialism at its best.... :) Its all about the money :rolleyes:



That is not martial arts training that is exercise and many dojo would be much better off if those people would just go join a gym. Martial arts are NOT for everyone and you do not have the right to a watered down approach for your own recreational gratification.

My favorite response everytime we get some one inquiring about our Dojo but balked when they hear what's involved. ... :)



I do blame some instructors to who are too strict in the other direction. For example, being cross with a student because the student stumbled upon something on their own and saying,"I didn't teach you that, you shouldn't practice that until I teach you that." Now in terms of a whole kata or something large like that, it is, of course, best to wait, but I have seen it done over ridiculous things that really had more to do with the teacher's sense of control and ego. This sort of attitude also retards progress and is NOT traditional. It is the sign of a teacher who is being passed up by his/her students in many cases.

I don't disagree with this statement

\

I'll answer the rest as I need to have some dinner now !!

[Prince Loeffler]

http://media.putfile.com/Silat-conditioning

I agree that most people in MAs don't push themselves past the point of slight physical discomfort, who know's if that is a mental block or just poor example by their sensei (I know that I sure don't know the reason :p)...

It's unfortunate, but it's important to remember that there is a line between what pushes a person to be better (or others) and to what ends up being dangerous. Thanks guys, very much, for bringing this up!!

I've seen too many vids of dumb kids jumping off their roofs trying to break a table a la the WWE!!


Just make that S&M parlors don't get a hold of this video...... :)

[SFE]

LOL!!! No doubt!

[Prince Loeffler]

Reminds me of another discussion. I don't pay for lessons to be drilled through 100 reps of things every class.

Not every class, often times when I see them lag behind certain techniques I simply do as many repetition as possible , minimum 100 perhaps ? At the end of the class , At least 2 or 3 of them gets it right.

[Budoka 34]

Just look around at how many Karateka can not even perform kihon to any standard, let alone be able to deal with that type of conditioning.

I don't mind the hobbyists as long as the understand that there is more to the arts than just jumping around punching and kicking. It's the TKD or McDojo Karateka that walks around saying, "I'm a black belt, I'm a black belt" that I have problems with.

They don't know what makiwara is let alone what its for.

I asked one local gentleman about hojo undo and he asked me if you could get rice with that! :rolleyes:

[Prince Loeffler]

I asked one local gentleman about hojo undo and he asked me if you could get rice with that! :rolleyes:

This is hilarious ! :) :) Anyway, does your dojo do Kongoken ( iron ring) Training ? I have seen and heard about this Iron Ring training and I am curious as to what its all about.