Hara-kiri and Seppuku

[Prince Loeffler]

What is the difference between hara-kiri and seppuku?

[Hattori]

Nothing. Hara kiri is colloquial.

[Prince Loeffler]

Thanks David, but somehow I am still at lost for the difference. Althought I understood what the concept of Hara-Kiri and Seppuku, but which of the two words are to be used properly ?

[Hattori]

切腹 - seppuku; when reversed it becomes 腹切 - hara kiri.

Seppuku is the preferred reading, more poetic (self-disembowelment). Hara kiri is considered vulgar (belly cutting). Hara kiri (the term) is not used often by Japanese.

[Prince Loeffler]

切腹 - seppuku; when reversed it becomes 腹切 - hara kiri.

Seppuku is the preferred reading, more poetic (self-disembowelment). Hara kiri is considered vulgar (belly cutting). Hara kiri (the term) is not used often by Japanese.


Thanks David, Now I know !

[allan]

My understanding is that hara-kiri (lit. "bellying-slitting") is regarded as a much more vulgar term than seppuku. I suppose, in that regard, that seppuku is a more dignified term, so to speak.

There are people on this site who could be a lot more helpful and historical than this but, for what it's worth, I hope this helps.

[Mr.Rooster]

No difference other then where the terminology is used.
Hari Kari is the Western terminology for Seppuku which is ritual suicide by self embowlement. The reason the belly is cut open is because in the East, it is bellieved that the soul of man resides in the lower abdomin.
Proper method is to insert dagger in lower left abdomin, slice to right and then up, releasing the spirit.

[TEA]

No difference other then where the terminology is used.
Hari Kari is the Western terminology for Seppuku which is ritual suicide by self embowlement. The reason the belly is cut open is because in the East, it is bellieved that the soul of man resides in the lower abdomin.
Proper method is to insert dagger in lower left abdomin, slice to right and then up, releasing the spirit.

Interesting. I'd always read that the reason was because its such a painful way to die that your enemy can't accuse you of cowardice for committing suicide rather than facing the humiliation of defeat and likely pain of torture if captured.

[Mr.Rooster]

I have a list somewhere in regards to when it was proper to perform Seppuku somewhere, there are only about 4 or 5 occasions where it is considered honorable.

[Brian Owens]

...Hari Kari is the Western terminology for Seppuku...
Harakiri (from hara: abdomen, and giri: to cut).

Not "hari kari" or "heri keri" -- although the latter is how it's often pronounced by native English speakers because it sounds like familiar words..."Harry" & "carry."

[Karasu Maru]

It isn't wrong to say that "Chushingura" is the best of Kabuki dramas. And it is one of the most enduring and best-loved stories of Japan's history.

A scene of "Kanpei’s Harakiri" is one of the cameos of this drama.
http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~chushingura/englishu/47gisi-1/Yokogawa-Kanpei.htm

In this drama, noble death of "Forty-six Loyal Samurai" is called “Seppuku”, but death of Kanpei that fell off them is called “Harakiri”.

[Mr.Rooster]

Are you referring to the 47 Ronin story?

[Josh Reyer]

Are you referring to the 47 Ronin story?

Indeed. 47 Ronin stormed Kira's castle, but only 46 were ordered to commit seppuku. The 47th died of old age and was then buried with his comrades.

[Mr.Rooster]

Thank you Mr. Reyer.
I read the 47 Ronin story, it's interesting but also frustrating.

[Brian Owens]

...47 Ronin stormed Kira's castle, but only 46 were ordered to commit seppuku. The 47th died of old age and was then buried with his comrades.
I'll have to revisit the story. I thought only 46 stormed Kira's manor, and all 46 were ordered to commit seppuku. The 47th, as I remember it, was too ill to join the raid, which spared him from having to take his own life even though he had been in on the plot.

[Fred27]

I'll have to revisit the story. I thought only 46 stormed Kira's manor, and all 46 were ordered to commit seppuku. The 47th, as I remember it, was too ill to join the raid, which spared him from having to take his own life even though he had been in on the plot.

Different authors, different versions I guess. I've read one version where the 47th is simply killed in action.

[Brian Owens]

Different authors, different versions I guess.
Yeah. It always bothers me a bit when authors have to "embellish" true stories. The facts are usually there, but they often get left out in favor of something more "interesting."

[Josh Reyer]

Oops. I should have written "Kira's manor" instead of "Kira's castle". I dunno, I guess once you write "storm the", "castle" just naturally follows.

The 47th ronin was Terasaka Kichiemon Nobuyuki 寺坂吉右衛門信行. He was an ashigaru, and the bushi of the lowest status in the group. The Japanese Wikipedia indicates he split off from the other 46 after the attack, when they were taking Kira's head to Sengakuji. One theory is that he was ordered by Oishi Kuranosuke (the leader of the 47) to tell Asano's family and the other Ako samurai what happened, and support the wives and children of the samurai who would commit seppuku. Another theory is that he wasn't ordered to commit seppuku because he was only an ashigaru in rank and not a full bushi. And of course there's the possibility he ran away. But the truth is no one really knows why Terasaka participated in the attack, but did not commit seppuku, and was still buried with other 46 after dying of old age (83). That's why stories fill in the gaps, I guess.

[Mr.Rooster]

I forget all the story details as well.
I think anyone with a Mudo/Budo interest ought to read that story at least once.

[Josh Reyer]

I forget all the story details as well.
I think anyone with a Mudo/Budo interest ought to read that story at least once.

Tsunetomo's condemnation of the 47 ronin in Hagakure is one reason why I find it hard to take that book seriously.

[Mr.Rooster]

I read that as well.
Anything in the Martial Ways, it's history, philosophy and anything else you can think of is always going to have someone that disagrees or dislikes something, thats just the way it is when you have a large group of humans.
Can't please or satisfy everybody.

[Kaito]

Tsunetomo's condemnation of the 47 ronin in Hagakure is one reason why I find it hard to take that book seriously.

His condemnation was not towards the ronin but thier delay in carrying out revenge. I always find it amusing to think of Tsunetomo. a man born almost 60 years after the great battle of Sekigahara. I often wonder if his sword had ever seen the light of day!

[Prince Loeffler]

His condemnation was not towards the ronin but thier delay in carrying out revenge. I always find it amusing to think of Tsunetomo. a man born almost 60 years after the great battle of Sekigahara. I often wonder if his sword had ever seen the light of day!


Thanks for the post ! However, you need to supply us your phone number, social security number, employer's name and phone number, scanned birth certificate, your dad's Social Security Number, Some DNA samples , your last 5 paycheck stub, your current medical and dental records, your checking and savings accounts, insurance poilicy number, deed to your propery, your vehicle registration number, your Grandmother hair samples and 24 letter of refence concerning your conduct from non-relatives.

If any of the above cannot be secured, then a posting your full name will do. :)

[MarkF]

Yeah, what Prince said. click on user cp, click on Signature editor, enter signature and answer yes that you want your signature to show plus anything else you want in your signature. Most importantly, name the person to behead you after plunging the dagger into your bowels (a little smelly but as they say about Rome...just do it).

Really, the rule is, even though your name is in your profile, you need to make sure to show your name at the end of each post or in your handle. If your name is your handle (I don't think it is), then you are safe from temporary banishment to E-budo hell.

Early on we had a mythological character by the name of "Sepukku Sam" who graded (I think) member web sites. That did not seem to last long, and I had not seen it actively when E-budo.com was founded in the late 1990s, but something like that is in the works now though without the character playing Seppuku or any other Sam.

Speaking of Harakiri or Hairy Carry, there is a family of actors by that name, both of them. The first was Harry Carey who was an actor of the late 1930s and 1940s. He mostly played character parts and was a working actor (meaning he did not mind that the movie was crap). His son, Harry Carey, Jr. carried on the family name into B movies, and the last of those Carey's, Phil, did the same. I was reminded of them through the viewing of the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washingon" that was shown recently. That co-starred the first Harry Carey who played the President of the US Senate who happens to also be the Vice President of the US (something not made clear in the movie).

Thomas Carey, also a wannabe actor was a friend of mine when we were in High School, his father being Phil Carey.

Hara Kiri or "Belly Slit" was the act itself while the ritual was called Seppuku, if I am not mistaken, and if one was so lucky as to have his enemy with him, he would complete the ritual by beheading the man. Many American made movies of the sixties, such as "Red Sun," had Japanese actors who threatened to "commit" Hara Kiri." It isn't a bad movie as the one who was chosen in the movie to do this very thing was Toshiro Mifune IF his mission was not carried out successfully.


Oh, and so as not to give proper credit, there was a Harry Carey who called baseball games for the Chicago Cubs but was no relation to the other family. He wasn't biased toward the Cubs, either (sure). He lead the crows in the first verse of "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" during the seventh inning stretch. He wasn't very good at that either but everyone lovied Harry.


Anyway, I will stop running my mouth now.


Mark

[Brian Owens]

...Many American made movies...such as "Red Sun," had Japanese actors who threatened to "commit" Hara Kiri." It isn't a bad movie as the one who was chosen in the movie to do this very thing was Toshiro Mifune IF his mission was not carried out successfully....
Any film that can get Toshiro Mifune, Charles Bronson, Alain Delon, and Ursula Andress together is a winner from the start. ;)

[Andrew S]

His condemnation was not towards the ronin but their delay in carrying out revenge. I always find it amusing to think of Tsunetomo. a man born almost 60 years after the great battle of Sekigahara. I often wonder if his sword had ever seen the light of day!

I seem to recall he thoroughly enjoyed his experience decapitating criminals, and recommended the practice. Becoming a monk didn't seem to change his attitude much!

[Kaito]

Yeah, what Prince said. click on user cp, click on Signature editor, enter signature and answer yes that you want your signature to show plus anything else you want in your signature. Most importantly, name the person to behead you after plunging the dagger into your bowels (a little smelly but as they say about Rome...just do it).

Really, the rule is, even though your name is in your profile, you need to make sure to show your name at the end of each post or in your handle. If your name is your handle (I don't think it is), then you are safe from temporary banishment to E-budo hell.
Mark

My full name is Hirai Kaito. I have no need or desire to use any sort of fancy nickname. I am who I am. As for the social security number and such I am Japanese and do not have these things. If you fine people have a difference of opinion by all means let's debate! Isn't that the reason to be here? To throw different ideas at one another and learn from the experience? My mind is simple if you want to learn about what a true samurai was like then learn from the words of a true samurai. Those who have fought and bled serving their masters. Men who actually used their skills for the betterment of the clan. For strategy I would look to the 3 unifiers, Takeda Shingen or one of his 24, Yamamoto Kansuke. Check out his work the Heiho okugi sho. You want to talk swordsmen lets talk Tsukahara Bokuden. The list goes on and on. If you want to quote a written document on the way of a samurai then I suggest reading the 99 articles of Takeda Nobushige or one of the many other written works of men who's opinions were formed by wiping blood off their swords.

Hirai Kaito

[Prince Loeffler]

My full name is Hirai Kaito. I have no need or desire to use any sort of fancy nickname. I am who I am. As for the social security number and such I am Japanese and do not have these things. If you fine people have a difference of opinion by all means let's debate! Isn't that the reason to be here? To throw different ideas at one another and learn from the experience? My mind is simple if you want to learn about what a true samurai was like then learn from the words of a true samurai. Those who have fought and bled serving their masters. Men who actually used their skills for the betterment of the clan. For strategy I would look to the 3 unifiers, Takeda Shingen or one of his 24, Yamamoto Kansuke. Check out his work the Heiho okugi sho. You want to talk swordsmen lets talk Tsukahara Bokuden. The list goes on and on. If you want to quote a written document on the way of a samurai then I suggest reading the 99 articles of Takeda Nobushige or one of the many other written works of men who's opinions were formed by wiping blood off their swords.

Hirai Kaito

Kaito San, The social security was a sarcastic / joking remarks ( American style), . I apologized for the insensitivity. Welcome to E-Budo and would love to hear more from you !

[Cla68]

This entry in Wikipedia on seppuku appears to cover the subject fairly well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku

Make sure to read under "discussion" tab also because there's apparently a lot of debate on the subject.

[Karasu Maru]

There are two kinds of Chushingura.

One is so-called Ako Case（赤穂事件）. The leader of this story is Oishi Kuranosuke（大石内蔵助）. And this story is famous as the movie and the drama.

The other is (Kanadehon) Chushingura that has been performed as the kabuki and Joruri since Edo period. In this story, Oishi doesn't exist. The leader is Oboshi Yuranosuke（大星由良助）. And, seppuku and harakiri are clearly distinguished in this story. The suicide of Enya Hnagan is seppuku, and the suicide of Hayano Kanpei is Harakiri.

This fact means neither seppuku nor harakiri were the same in the idea of the Japanese in Edo period.

Terasaka that is the 47th ronin died of sickness, and is unrelated to this topic.

[Prince Loeffler]

The suicide of Enya Hnagan is seppuku, and the suicide of Hayano Kanpei is Harakiri.

This fact means neither seppuku nor harakiri were the same in the idea of the Japanese in Edo period.

topic.

This pique my curiosity more, can you kindly elaborate how the idea were different ? Would the actual ritual itself be the same ?

Thanks

[hyaku]

Seppuku (self disembowelment)the first part of the word comes from Setsu. For example the medical term to cut and open is Sekai. Another word Setsudan is amputation. Fukubu is the word for abdomen. The word Junshi, was also used.