Vertical punch vs. reverse punch

[Kevin73]

I was curious to anyone who has practiced Isshin-Ryu about the vertical punch that is used and how it compares to the reverse punch used by most other styles.

The questions I am wondering about are:

1) How is it in power compared to a reverse punch
2) Is it a different application altogether or the replacement of the reverse punch
3) I have heard it was switched to that method because it was safer to execute for the practioner.

Thanks for any answers

[Budokan]

I took isshin-ryu for about a year before switching to shotokan. The isshin-ryu punch was formulated with the thumb on top of the fist in order to strengthen the wrist--considered a weak point when the energy of a punch was released into an opponent. I got so used to it that by the time I switched to shotokan the "normal" karate fist felt very strange. The isshin-ryu fist also has the added benefit of using the thumb (which is laying on top of the fist) as a finger trapping mechanism when the need--and opportunity--arises. I don't think it was meant to replace a reverse punch. If I remember correctly we threw reverse punches in training, but with the isshin-ryu fist. Power-wise, it was a pretty good fist.

[Joseph Svinth]

The thumb on top used by Isshin-ryu strikes me as a little strange, but it is a definite advantage to keep the elbow down and in the center if the opponent is allowed to grab. Obviously this is no problem in Shotokan, but is almost everywhere else. Why? Think armbar.

The elbow down is also nice if the folks throw round kicks to the head. I know, you can use osotogari or a side kick to the thigh to discourage that, but introducing Mr. Toe to Mr. Elbow is kinda fun, too. (Assuming you're Mr. Elbow, not Mr. Toe.)

The standing fist also lends itself to punching up the centerline, ala some of the Chinese MA. (Think John Gilbey's Itty Bitty Poke.) This is a different kind of power generation that uses lats rather than the hips, but if you stand in front of it I guarantee you'll wish you hadn't.

Finally, the standing fist works better out of a boxing-style turtle defense, which is a pretty good place to be when you're standing in and trading head punches and muay Thai elbows.

Now, the flat fist works real well as a grip release. Enormously practical for that, complete with hip rotation and zenkutsu/gyaku. In these cases, the lead hand is a palm heel to the xiphoid process, and the result looks just like kata. Really cool stuff done that way, and since I prefer really cool explanations to the "first, sensei says, and besides, Attacker is (compared to us) really slow and stupid" explanations, well, that's how I teach reverse punching anyway, not as a punch but as a grip release.

These idiosyncratic explanations aside, there was an article on the biomechanics of the two punches in Journal of Asian Martial Arts, I believe in one of the last couple issues. Recent, anyway.

[Victor Smith]

With over 27 years throwing vertical or standing punches and a lot of work in many systems, all ways can hit very hard.
Personally I think to much is made of the vertical fist being stronger than the turning fist. With wisdom I prefer not to be hit with any fist.

In the Isshinryu system it is mostly thrown as a snap punch, where the hand hits and retracts quickly. This does offer some advantages defensively, as its harder to trap, and without the turn it's definately more difficult to control the punching arm.

The Vertical fist doesn't necessarily hit vertically, The angle of application might be 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock depending on the desired result.

The best tactical advantage of the vertical fist is when its thrown with the correct angle of insertion into an attacker. In this case you're hitting with a verticle ridge of knuckles with about the same power as the one knuckle punch, but with less chance of making a mistake in fist formation.

Most Isshinryu Dojo also address the twisting punch, abet on a much lesser level. And IMVHO most other Okinawan systems stressing the twisting punch also have a place for the vertical punch too.

So it would appear to be more of a case of where you want a beginner to start, whereas the advanced adept would have the ability to chose the best tool for the target. Seems a reasonable idea to me. Of course in that case such discussion for which fist is really a discussion about what's best for beginners.

[RDeppe]

I was shown the thumb on top thing about six months ago and at first was very skeptical. But after playing around with it quite a bit, I like it. What I found is that the thumb on top is very stable when hitting makiwara that allow penetration (i.e. tires & water bags) and that in general it protects the thumb a lot better than I though it would. I haven't heard of any structural reason to put it on top other that that. Are there any?

Thanks.

[Joseph Svinth]

Theory: The thumb on top is useful for striking pressure points and whatnot, especially when middle blocking or using the same motion as a strike to the carotids.

Practice: The thumb strike works more consistently on makiwara and ukes than trained moving targets that are shooting back with enthusiasm.

[Ken Allgeier]

When I was a college student at Penn State Unv, I became friends with many of the senior students of the " Penn State Karate Club " a Isshin Ryu group. I trained with them quite often and even learned the kata syllabus( i forgoten them all by now).I have to say that in my opinion,that the standard/traditional corkscrew punch still is more effective than the vertical stand-fist punch,because the vertical punch does not,and can not use the snap from the elbow,in the same manner which the corkscrew punch does to create speed,thus create striking/punching power.The snap from the elbow by the corkscrew punch brings into play the muscles of the forearm and the tricips,while also bring into(by a greater degree)other musles suchs as the ,lats,delts,pectorals,abs,more than the vertical standing-fist punch.It maybe that the corkscrew punch trains the body dynamic better ,even if one throws a vertical punch.


I also have heard from several people over the years,that Tatsuo Shimabuku had modified Isshin Ryu to make it easier for the Marine in Okinawa to learn Karate.







ken allgeier

[Victor]

Ken,

This is an old debate in the States, but looking at it from an Okinawan perspective, its most likely just a question of choice.

Shimabuku Tatuso didn't invent the vertical punch. Kyan Sensei, one of his instructors, was a major proponent of the vertical punch. Likewise kata such as Chinte use the vertical punch. Nagamine Shoshin's "Tales of OKinawa's Great Masters" shows a photograph of this strike, and discusses how it was Kyan's favorite.

Personally one of the strongest merit's of this striking is that the arm isn't being turned over during delivery. If one runs into an exceptional opponent, the twisting punch makes it much easier to control your arm if they get to you first. [Of course if they don't get to you it doesn't make a difference.]

Finally a word on the "Isshinryu is simpler karate for American Marines." Structurally it simply isn't proven. Far too often in American Isshinryu history somebody made a stament and its been repeated ad-infinitum without any supporting evidence. I find there is nothing simpler about Isshinryu from any of the other systems I've seen.

Personally I study as much as I can to learn what others are doing and ponder how to eliminate those threats (grin).

Seasons Greeting.

[okumori]

For all the discussion that I have heard on this subject, my personal take is quite simple. Well, actually, I just accept the view of some friends of mine, who are much better at this stuff than I am. If you take an orthodox reverse punch chanbered at your side, as the punch come out, rotating, to full extension, you actually do at least four punches:an upper cut with the palm facing up, a vertical fist, a three quarters twist, and a full twist. The range at which you punch determines which configuration actually hits the target.

I find that I usually hit with the vertical fist and twist to a 3/4 rotation on contact. The friction caused by the twist, if on bare skin, can cause severe pain.

I've been experimenting with this for a long time, and for me the strongest configuration, (at least in a relatively static context) is the 3/4 twist(the thumb is at about 10 o'clock for a right hand punch). The wrist seems to be stronger and least likely to collapse, the alignment of the bones of the hand and the forearm is optimal, I think.

Further, the 3/4 twist seems facilitate the penetration of the two big knuckles, at least for me.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

maurice

[Mance Thompson]

Gentlemen,

Just a thought on the vertical vs. horizontal fist debate. Both types of punches are quite appropriate depending on the target and range. Due to the shape of the face, a vertical punch is more natural and less potentially damaging to the punchers' wrist whereas the throat for example is best struck horizontally with a foreknuckle strike unless the head is tipped back, creating more space. Reverse punching is very powerful but most people tend to think of using it from to far away, it becomes devastating when the lead hand is used to distract or tie up the opponents limbs. A final idea on the elbow in the reverse punch, has anyone toyed with keeping the elbow down and rotating only with the forearm? Though this changes power dynamics, it keeps the elbow safe.

Mance Thompson

[Dojorat]

Greetins,

My "Karatedo" experience is mainly Japanese (more like Shotokan than any other) but it was taught to me by a Vietnamese instructor so.... go figure. We use a full twisting punch. Palm up at the side to palm down at full extension but with a natural bend remaining in the elbow to prevent hyperextension while training without striking a target surface. We define "reverse" punch as being done with the hand opposite the forward leg (gyaku tsuki) while using the "forward/lead" hand is a lunge punch.

I consulted my MD (certified in Sports Medicine) and asked him specific questions on the mechanics of punching. Some observations...

Full rotation of the fist "disengages the biceps" The biceps helps stabilize the elbow in flexion (ie helps keep it bent) therefore not rotating dimishes the speed and snap that you can get by rotating because your bicep is not "holding your fist back"

The muscle that flexes the thumb, that is brings it across the palm (flexor pollax longus) helps stabilize the wrist and prevent it from flexing and/or extending upon impact. Therefore, the thumb placed on top of a vertical fist is somewhat weaker than if the thumb is brought tightly across the fingers.

I read the JAMS article. The author based strength calculations on loading the wrist and forearm bones. I didn't see any discussion of the ligature and the role they play in the structure. I'll have to reread.

Furthermore, Boxers (unlike a lot of Karateka) are taught to hit people and hit them hard. I've yet to see a boxer that didn't practice jabs and crosses with a rotation (mind you the fist stays vertical in a hook and flat in an uppercut). There must be something to that rotation thing otherwise I think the Angelo Dundees of this world would've been looking at something else.

My own theories tend to look at the use of the one knuckle fists. If you use the second knuckle of your middler or pointer to strike vital point it makes sense to use the thumb for support. Or, as was suggested by Mr. Svinth I believe, you use the thumb knuckle, it makes sense to place it up on top of the curled index finger. But then suppose you took practitioners who are striking vital points with extended knuckles and ask them to teach school children and Gaijin invaders. What do you show them? A "blunter" fist with the knuckle retracted and none of the vital point targets. But, the thumb is still braced behind the fingers. and this is the fist that gets brought to the mainland or back to the good old USA. I await mucho response to this theory.

Now, once we get this issue settled, we can all go over to the Wing Chun bulletin board and figure out why they hit with their little and ring fingers.

Cheers,

[Kevin73]

I read your post about turning over fist disengages the bicep. I totally agree and I think that is one reason that it is not used in Isshin-Ryu because the punch is immediatly snapped back which requires the bicep.

I agree with you on the analysis of using a "blunt fist" for school children. Gichin Funakoshi even said that he changed the stances and fist configs. to make it safer for children to learn.

[Joseph Svinth]

If you strike from the center as he steps (or you pull) him in, then turning the fist over is irrelevant. Indeed, your fist and arm barely move. He just impales himself.

Moreover, if you strike from the center, then the elbow must remain on centerline, thumb up, or the result is limp-wristed. Remember, a centerline punch is done with shoulders, lats, and rhomboid muscles rather than biceps, and has the advantage of being less likely to throw you off center, an important consideration whenever sparring with wrestlers or judoka.

As for tearing the other fellow's face with your knuckles, note that without gloves and tape you're more likely to tear up your own knuckles on his teeth than vice versa.

[Ken Allgeier]

If you examine the classical Karate kata's( Shuri-Te,Tomari-Te,& Naha-Te)it is apparent that the majority of , all punches are directed to the opponents midsection.Why maybe,punching to the face where you will have bone against bone,is not such a good idea.Just a thought for the day.








ken allgeier