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deaddoll
17th February 2006, 12:24
Having seen the title ,I thought it would be nice to hear from women who have had Martial arts issues and how they have dealt with them .Jax

Harlan
17th February 2006, 13:17
E-Budo requires that you sign your posts with your real name. I doubt you will get any responses to this leading question until you do...dead troll...I mean 'dead doll'.

deaddoll
19th February 2006, 09:59
Well my name is on my profile and I signed my name but if that was breaking the rules im sorry...my question was in no was a leading question,it was just a question.. Im new on this forum,im female ,I have been traing for many years I am interested on other females lives in there dojo and out there on courses and forums .
Jax English

Harlan
20th February 2006, 03:22
Apologies if I came across curt. I realized it afterwards...and only then realized that I didn't seem to have an edit option available. :(

deaddoll
20th February 2006, 09:07
apology accepted :)
as a female MA ,I have trained all over the world,and really have not really had any problems in a dojo ,apart from the ones we all have like surviving..When I first started I used to have problems,some men just did not want a girl in the dojo,this was a good enough reason to stay..just to annoy the hell out of them :p I thought we had all moved on from then but Ihave read some things on other forums and think alot of men still feel this ,but they wont say any thing to the girl in the dojo ..only behind the safety of the comp....is this true are men to scared to speak to us as well ?

deaddoll
20th February 2006, 09:48
also meant to add ,if any new females to MA are having any probs or concerns, just speak out ,I been in the dojo for centuries and might have advice :rolleyes:

EDGordon
20th February 2006, 10:23
Hi, it is nice to get in some "girl-talk" sometimes. I too have been in various dojo in the US, Canada, and Germany, and there are some wierd things that come up sometimes. Most of the time, I think it's just due to misunderstandings and misconceptions, which everyone should face directly and work to overcome.

I am actually in the process of brainstorming a web-site called budobabe.com, I bought the name last year. I'd be interested in issues to raise, address, and things to talk about.

A few years ago, I wrote a paper called "Putting up with Men" for the Guelph School of Japanese Sword Arts, with Deborah Klens-Bigman's prodding and support. I addressed as many issues as seemed possible, and did a lot of research.
Enjoy: http://www.ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA03dolan.htm

Now, can someone please tell me how to tie a sword obi around a female waist low enough that I can draw, and not have to shove it back down every 10 kata? Ack!

Emily
EDGordon

EDGordon
20th February 2006, 10:34
also meant to add ,if any new females to MA are having any probs or concerns, just speak out ,I been in the dojo for centuries and might have advice :rolleyes:

What have you been training in all these years?

Just to feed the conversation: I got my original rank (shodan 1998) in Aikido, training with Seidokan and Aikikai (Nishio-ryu, yes I know he didn't call it that or want to). I have also dabbled in Wing Tsun, trained in judo (my aikido teacher was a judoka) and love traditional Japanese weapons (sword, jo, naginata and fan). I have trained for the past 4 years in sogo budo with Chuck Gordon (www.the-dojo.com). Having to relearn, forget and reapply much of what I knew before.

I haven't had a female classmate for a couple of years now, but our male students are universally respectful and great to train with.

The biggest problem I have had in years past, and when I visit public dojo, is the invisibility problem. I don't hesitate to aggressively (in a very friendly, let's play! manner) grab a training partner who looks like fun.

-Emily

P Goldsbury
20th February 2006, 10:36
Well my name is on my profile and I signed my name but if that was breaking the rules im sorry...my question was in no was a leading question,it was just a question.. Im new on this forum,im female ,I have been traing for many years I am interested on other females lives in there dojo and out there on courses and forums .
Jax English

Hello,

Welcome to E-Budo. I suggest that you add your name to your signature, which you can do by accessing the User CP and then opening the Edit Signature menu. Your name will always be there and you will not be pestered by moderators like myself, telling you to sign your posts with your name.

Best wishes,

deaddoll
20th February 2006, 12:49
Hi Emily
I started in Wado in 1983, this was the only club around..I then moved and ended up taking Judo after a year I found a Goju club so ended up doing both, after about 6 years the Judo stopped and I took up Kendo of which I did for a about 6 years until the club disbanded.
All this time I kept Goju going but I did change clubs where we also do Uechi Ryu...I do Kobudo and I have done JuJitsu and Ninjitsu, Kickboxing, muay thai, kyusho..always keeping the Karate and having all the other things as extras..trained alot all over the world, love to go on multi style courses great days out, good giggle...my Goju grade at present is Sandan :)
I am lucky to have lots of Female training partners and lots of males and all have great fun..

ryoishin
20th February 2006, 13:17
Hey,

Im not a woman (i think) but we are having problems getting women into the dojo. They dont seem to want to train. It makes the atmosphere in the dojo too male. Any thoughts on how to change this.

Thanks

John Timmons
Son of Ironfist
Ryoshin Dojo
Dublin
Ireland

mews
20th February 2006, 17:34
Enjoy: http://www.ejmas.com/proceedings/GSJSA03dolan.htm

Now, can someone please tell me how to tie a sword obi around a female waist low enough that I can draw, and not have to shove it back down every 10 kata? Ack!

Emily
EDGordon[/QUOTE]

1) i can't believe i read the whole Linden thread!
you are evil, and my laundry is soggy and ignored!
oh, well, you saved me from some housekeeping, so i guess it's ok...

2) i bought the narrowest obi they had. so far, the sword sits on the ridge of bone and stays there. although, i'm long in the body - are you short-waisted? that may affect things...

mew

EDGordon
20th February 2006, 17:49
Hey,
Im not a woman (i think) but we are having problems getting women into the dojo. They dont seem to want to train. It makes the atmosphere in the dojo too male. Any thoughts on how to change this.


Hi John,

Wow, Dublin, we're thinking of spending our anniversary week in County Cavan or thereabouts this fall. Haven't ventured into the city much, mostly headed out to the countryside (cities is cities... Houston to Prague..).

Hm, going to have to define "too male" for me. Unless it involves hygiene problems or something, I'm not sure how a dojo could be "too male" for me.
I've had to change in the broom closet or chase the boys out of the changing room a time or two, but I've never demanded satin pillows or matching wallpaper. If I like the instruction, and want to train, and don't have too much laundry (hi Margaret) I'm there.

I'm not a karate gal, though, so I'll wave this one over to Jax.

-Emily

mews
20th February 2006, 17:59
Hi Emily - i was also wondering about the 'too male' bit - then i got ... sidetracked... :D

What's the style? what are the classes like? what are the interactions among students like? between teacher & students?

mew

EDGordon
20th February 2006, 18:04
1) i can't believe i read the whole Linden thread!


Yeah, that was kind of a train wreck. Inspired me to write the paper, though.



you are evil, and my laundry is soggy and ignored!
oh, well, you saved me from some housekeeping, so i guess it's ok...


I'm not evil, I'm just drawn that way.. ;-)
Anyway housework is much more evil than I will ever be!



2) i bought the narrowest obi they had. so far, the sword sits on the ridge of bone and stays there. although, i'm long in the body - are you short-waisted? that may affect things...


I'm actually a bit long waisted. I can find my iliac crests without digging much, but I have rather square hips, somehow. I use a medium wide obi (about the width of my hand across the knuckles) and I don't think anything narrower will hold an iaito or shinken. It's good stiff embroidered silk, one of the nice blue and white ones from Japan.

I try to wrap the obi around the hip bones, and anchor it with the hakama, but invariably it climbs up, heading hellbent for whatever up to my natural waist and wadding up my keikogi in the process.

I've threatened to pin it all down with large amounts of Velcro...

-Emily

mews
20th February 2006, 18:45
hmmm...

here are the details of how i do it, as well as i can explain on-line -

i wrap the obi so it rides on top of the ridge, and then the hakama sits on top - the knot/bow of the hakama is sitting right at my belly-button.
saya goes in-between folds of the obi, and over one hakama himo - haven't had any problems so far... it seems to sit pretty balanced. and my iaido teachers haven't complained...

now, i learned to wear a hakama first in naginata - from women - and i notice that kendoka [or at least the male kendoka i've seen] wrap their obi, and therefore their hakama, a lot lower on the hips. also the himo are handled differently.

I was told in naginata that it is a style thing, not a male/female thing - i have no idea what the revealed truth is from the other side.

mew

deaddoll
20th February 2006, 19:10
Hi John
I think I understand what you mean when you say too male atmosphere,it l does not feel balanced,have you had females in your Dojo before or has it always been all male ?
when I first started I was the only girl in a club of about 40 males,now im not bothered but alot of the men there were,this made me more determined to give them a bit of trouble so I stayed . You dont sound like the sort of guy who is in anyway like that so here is a brief feel of why you got no female practitioners.
1.catch 22 no women in there none want to come in
2.pere pressure to look good and go to step and bums n tums (AAAAGGGGHH)
3.Husbands and boyfriends I have found are often behind the non attendance of females and when they do start they can be under alot of pressure to stop I have come across this one alot.
4.families ,babies etc (although this does not stop them going to bums n tums)
5.shyness and in the case of JuJitsu shy at first of body closeness

If a female wants to do a martial art she really will NOT fit into any of the above,so where to find them.
In the club I go to we have 3 blackbelt ,1 brown ,1 blue and a few yellow belt women so it was the first black belt who led the way so to speak,alot of Mums try it and some stay,but in your club you wont have that will you or do you? women in the dojo often lack confidence and they can get hurt alot easier at first...so always make sure you keep an eye on who they training with as a guy of the same grade or the green belt beware syndrome !!try to hurt anyone that comes near them cos they can or cos they havent learnt to control there strength, so trustworthy partners ,the ones who kno0w how to control themselves are the ones so we do need a bit of TLC to start with im sure if you advertise at places women go ,maybe you could go to the bums n tums and steal some !!! women not bums !!!! I now need coffee Jax

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 07:06
when I first started I was the only girl in a club of about 40 males,now im not bothered but alot of the men there were,this made me more determined to give them a bit of trouble so I stayed.


How did you work through those first feelings of "not exactly welcome here"?
I didn't run into it too often as aikido and judo are touted as "gentle" arts and therefore more PC for women to train in (yeah whatever ;) ) but there is still the occasional "boy's club".

It sounds arrogant, but why would I want to be a member of a club that won't have me? I have left styles alone because I found out that they allow women to train, but won't promote them. Not that I care so much about promotion, just support.



2.pere pressure to look good and go to step and bums n tums (AAAAGGGGHH)
3.Husbands and boyfriends I have found are often behind the non attendance of females and when they do start they can be under alot of pressure to stop I have come across this one alot.


I have also seen men whose mates hold their dojo time over them like a gallows. My first husband, however, understood that training was good for me and took over more household responsibilities so that I could train.
How do you help these women out, besides saying "he doesn't want what you want, or what's good for you, how can that be good?"



4.families ,babies etc (although this does not stop them going to bums n tums)
5.shyness and in the case of JuJitsu shy at first of body closeness


I have particularly enjoyed dojo where the kids are welcome, and mentored as part of the family by the whole community.

The shyness is often tinged with a great deal of fear. Women are socialized to fear men. At the same time, this is the best reason to train, not only to, by determination, become free from the fear, but also learn to trust men. This requires that TLC Jax is talking about, but at least in my career, it has been a real blessing.

I remember really wishing I had a high-ranking female teacher, but I got the lessons I needed, and more, from male teachers who took the time to really try to reach me and "knock the corners off". Gently, fortunately!



In the club I go to we have 3 blackbelt ,1 brown ,1 blue and a few yellow belt women so it was the first black belt who led the way so to speak,


That's what needed. The first couple may have to be cultivated, but the simple sight of a woman doing *whatever* can be enough to get another to step on the mat.

Education and outreach, letting people know that it's not machismo but good training that does the trick in terms of gaining skills...

The rest of it's just up to luck, I'm afraid.

You could always get a new spiffy window treatment.
;-D

plume
21st February 2006, 09:32
Hello !
I have been training for two years in dojos where there are more women than men. I feel there relaxed and I think there is less competition between the members. The little problem is the big meetings (gashuku). Some men can be really hard with us, sometimes to show their strenght when it's absolutely not needed in the practice.

But I just think, they don't know how to react, when they are not used to a female partner. If they pay too much attention, we can feel that they do that because we are women. Which means, they consider us less like a partner. And if they are hard and hurting, (i.e. considering us like a male partner), we can complain.

My first budo experience as I was a teenager was that the boys tried to kick me out of the dojo. They managed to do it !

The teacher has to pay attention. It's a question of balance and respect toward the others, women, children or beginners. Everybody has to feel welcome.

What do you mind ?

Céline Meyer

ryoishin
21st February 2006, 16:12
Hey

What do I mean by "too male"? Well anytime Ive had to explain a move to a women I find that Im really technically switched on whereas explaining it to a man is kinda of "foot here and hand here, now do it", but that could be just me. Also women tend to give good energy to the dojo and brighten the place up. That sounded better in my head. Does that explain it? Its more a feeling thing than anything else. But we ve talked about it in the dojo and we all agree that we want more women training.

From what Ive seen, in Ireland, women tend to join the "bums and tums" stuff. Theres a lot of women training in kickboxing. They seem to go for the more keep fit approach. We use to have a womens class, because they asked for one, where they would use the men as ukes then slowly we started to get them to use each other. Then we broke for christmas (2 weeks) and when the class started back the numbers started to fall again so my sensei got fed up with them not turning up so he stopped training on that day and spent the time with his kids. We do have one woman training 3 times a week with us but she has been there for the last 15 years.

I dont know too much what its like in other countries. We do have a dojo in Germany and there are a number of girls there.

I ve only driven through cavan, never spent any large amount of time there but Im sure you d like it. If you dont you can always drive somewhere else. Sure it only takes 3 hours to drive across Ireland.

Thanks,

John Timmons
Son of Ironfist
Ryoshin Dojo
Dublin
Ireland

Harlan
21st February 2006, 17:57
I don't see any of the above as particularly, or uniquely, 'women's issues'.

-lack of an understanding significant other
-having to balance training with other responsibilities (includes time away for parenting)
-the 'you're not welcome here' sign doesn't just get waved under the female nose (there are all kinds of prejudices/'isms')

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 19:36
I don't see any of the above as particularly, or uniquely, 'women's issues'.

-lack of an understanding significant other
-having to balance training with other responsibilities (includes time away for parenting)
-the 'you're not welcome here' sign doesn't just get waved under the female nose (there are all kinds of prejudices/'isms')

Too true.
For some reason I am having a Star Wars flashback where the androids are being shown the door "We don't serve their kind here".

Perhaps the hard truth is often that women are a kind of "indicator species" which flourish only in the more nourishing environments. Think of wolves, or falcons. If the hunting isn't good, they won't stick around.

It isn't always the dojo's fault that a person doesn't have their life arranged to suit their personal growth goals. Heck, most of us don't have that in order.
We're stuck going to "bums and tums" (that phrase drives this American into silent hilarity) over and over, thinking it will solve our problems.

We could also ask how dojo could be more welcoming to homosexuals, and how Americans get along in Japanese dojo, which in at least some accounts have been some of the most punishing environments available (read Angry White Pyjamas or Duelling with Osensei).

However, while we cannot even make political cartoons without parsing people off into bloody riots any more, we can point fingers at women and what they do, or don't do, or how we cannot deal with them, or how women can't deal with whatever, or just generally bartch that the world is not Just So.

IT AIN'T.

So. Funny story.
Once upon a time, I was training with a lovely Southern gentleman affiliated with Yanagi Ryu. I was still a beginner there, though I had about three years of aikido behind me. The fellow kept catching me, every time he threw me. I found that very sweet, but silly macha me, I decided he was just being too namby-pamby. So I grabbed him by his dogi lapels over his tanned, muscular life-guard's chest, and lifted him almost off his feet (at 173 cm and over 75 kilos on a bad day, it's not impossible) at which point I forced him to Actually Throw me.

After I shoo'ed the little yellow birdies and stars out of my vision, I let him help me up. I thanked him, and left him on the ground in my attacks, after that.

Moral of the story:
Be careful what you ask for.
You might get it.

-Emily

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 20:20
What do I mean by "too male"? Well anytime Ive had to explain a move to a women I find that Im really technically switched on whereas explaining it to a man is kinda of "foot here and hand here, now do it", but that could be just me.

Well now that I've had a rant and all, we can talk. ;-D
I LIKE technical explanations, but I do even better if I have a "story" to go with it somehow. "So you want to step behind him and stick your elbow in his ear" or some such, works well.
After I get the points right a couple of times, then I can put the feeling in.

Men and women can sometimes have different "directional" communication styles. A man will say "go west two miles and turn east at mile marker 777" a woman will say, turn left, go past the thatched pub, and then go right at the druggery". Too much technical, if the person can't parse it (not my previous meaning, erm.. ) blocks them up. As you know, you've been teaching for ages, you have to give it in bites they can swallow.



Also women tend to give good energy to the dojo and brighten the place up. That sounded better in my head. Does that explain it? Its more a feeling thing than anything else. But we ve talked about it in the dojo and we all agree that we want more women training.

Maybe you can elucidate three things this means, concretely (flowers on the kamiza, nice soaps in the loo, whatever) and and do them anyway. I've been training with two men and just me for the past year, and I've learned that if I want a bit of something, I just need to do it, or ask for it. If you are looking for a more nurturing or hospitable atmosphere, just find a way to do it.

We used to have a nice fellow by the name of Martin who used to add immensely to the hospitality of our dojo with his big warm heart and his tendency to bring immense amounts of homebrew for post-training dojo cameraderie.



From what Ive seen, in Ireland, women tend to join the "bums and tums" stuff. Theres a lot of women training in kickboxing.


I did a bit of that with a mentor who knew what he was doing, and it was a blast. Later, when I tried a commercial class, the guy didn't want me to punch correctly. He was afraid I would "hurt somebody".
No, really. It was incredibly lame.



They seem to go for the more keep fit approach.


This tells you that your audience is very practical. Answer this interest.



We use to have a womens class, because they asked for one,

This should be a phase-in sort of thing, not an end unto itself. Sooner or later, we all have to deal with the other gender. Whatever that may be.
You know these things (new students) are like throwing money at a wall; You get to keep what sticks.


We do have one woman training 3 times a week with us but she has been there for the last 15 years.

I'm sure you've asked her why her friends don't come. She might be like me, a woman who has strenuously avoided "traditional" entanglements in order to pursue what makes her happier.



I dont know too much what its like in other countries. We do have a dojo in Germany and there are a number of girls there.


Germans are big on clubs and social committments. You can have a uni club with 500 members, and you only ever see 50 of them. This is fine though, because the dues of the others enable them to show up at parties, and it buys beer and pizza for all.
It's also delightfully all right for a woman to be strong and in control here, after all, they rebuilt the country. Sure, there was lot of grumbling about Merkel, especially in Bavaria (where I live) but they got used to it pretty quickly. They've got a lot to grouse about besides her, especially with bird flu encroaching from the east.



I ve only driven through cavan, never spent any large amount of time there but Im sure you d like it. If you dont you can always drive somewhere else. Sure it only takes 3 hours to drive across Ireland.


I've recently found out that a family ancestor came from Cavan, and I just want to go look at faces. Not in a rude way, I like to talk to people. I learned quite a lot, that last trip. We drove from Slane to Galway in that amount of time last year. I fell quite in love with Athlon, the funny place in the middle.

-Emily

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 20:49
Hello !
I have been training for two years in dojos where there are more women than men. I feel there relaxed and I think there is less competition between the members. The little problem is the big meetings (gashuku). Some men can be really hard with us, sometimes to show their strenght when it's absolutely not needed in the practice.

Gruessen/Bonjour:
So is it not my imagination that the koryu are not perhaps more inviting to some? Margaret talks about naginata/kendo and tying the hakama (oops, I'm sort of neither, I just want it all to stay together!) these little differences seem almost celebrated, rather than picked at. Never mind those who feel the need to test everyone... I think that's a kind of universal constant. As a bodyworker (massage therapist, Rolfer after May 2006 with luck!) my hands are my life, and I ask others to be careful with them.



But I just think, they don't know how to react, when they are not used to a female partner. If they pay too much attention, we can feel that they do that because we are women. Which means, they consider us less like a partner. And if they are hard and hurting, (i.e. considering us like a male partner), we can complain.


I wonder if these same guys have trouble modulating with an older/injured male partner. This would just be insensitivity, as opposed to sexism. As you say, they cannot pay either too much or too little attention without problems. Certainly one should just train as one trains, but without a partner, there isn't that special challenge of timing/riai which makes it so sweet. If we do not train so that we can interact with another being, what on earth are we training for? to look good in a mirror? Bleah! |-p



My first budo experience as I was a teenager was that the boys tried to kick me out of the dojo. They managed to do it !


Their loss. What style was it?



The teacher has to pay attention. It's a question of balance and respect toward the others, women, children or beginners. Everybody has to feel welcome. What do you mind ?

Yes. Exactly. Genau.
I mind (as in resent or become upset by) insensitivity. If the teacher cannot gauge my experience, or lack of it, if a partner cannot tell when I cannot give back what they have given me, if my injuries cannot be taken into account when I am training (and I will gladly trade with a fitter partner so my partner can train what they need) then I cannot train there.
I mind being seen as a gender, rather than anything else. Sure, I've got a gender, but so does everyone else. It's not so important as character, and I'd rather count characters rather than "bits" of this sort or that, as dojomates.

-Emily

Harlan
21st February 2006, 20:57
I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with the above idea of accomodating people.

I do think that if an instructor chooses to modify their training to keep people...that is their choice. If not, then that is their choice as well. The student should keep looking for the right training situation. If they decide that the right training situation happens to include challenges...then they will be the stronger for it.

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 21:11
hmmm...
i wrap the obi so it rides on top of the ridge, and then the hakama sits on top - the knot/bow of the hakama is sitting right at my belly-button.
saya goes in-between folds of the obi, and over one hakama himo - haven't had any problems so far... it seems to sit pretty balanced. and my iaido teachers haven't complained...
mew

I find that drawing is much easier if the obi actually wraps the hip bones themselves (as they do on a man) a good hand below my navel (which is at my "natural") waist. This is nice and comfy, but won't stay.

This isn't a problem with our omoto sets, it's when I get into the fast-draws that I need that extra space for sayabiki. I blame my body mechanics as much as my clothing woes, but I'd like to make things as easy as possible for myself. I do have a measurable diff btwn waist and hips, so it's not a problem of being a blob.

The cycle of "draw three times, shove obi back down around hips" makes me feel like an obese kid in a breakdancing contest... wearing his larger brother's pants. It's all quite "in" these days, I see...

Sword styles vary, of course. Ours is supposed to be most like Sekiguchi Ryu (according to Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei) if that helps. The style is rather dynamic, with compression cuts rather than the Eishin-ryu style extended cut. This all suits me fine, I just can't get the clothing right!

Gads. I'm a batto style victim.
*groan*
-Emily

EDGordon
21st February 2006, 21:30
I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with the above idea of accomodating people.

I do think that if an instructor chooses to modify their training to keep people...that is their choice. If not, then that is their choice as well. The student should keep looking for the right training situation. If they decide that the right training situation happens to include challenges...then they will be the stronger for it.

Depends on the instructor, sure. I would never tell an instructor they needed to modify their style to accommodate women, or whatever minority-of-the-day it is. Who said training should be challenge-free? What would be the point?

Who has stepped on the mat for a whole class, without a mistake?

This excepts instructors, and they are out there, who willfully injure, drive off, abuse or, perhaps, as you put it, "challenge" people they don't like. It can certainly be done nicely, and productively, and be met by those who "want to" as opposed to those who "want to want to".
Can't make all the people happy, all the time. Nor should a dedicated instructor try.

This "selection process" can also be ugly and abusive, or just plain make whoever you are, invisible.

For these, I would just train with someone else.
I've done it before, and I'd do it again.

Did you read the paper link I posted earlier?

In one way, I'm glad my instructor runs a private dojo. It keeps abusers and wannabees out. I don't miss them.

In another, I think there are people with pretty limited views of the world, and I don't have much to say to them, nor do I care to spend time arguing with them. They can have it. I have plenty else to do. Like get some rest.

-Emily

7thSamurai
22nd February 2006, 03:20
This is a very interesting read. I'm really enjoying it.

On Saturdays, I teach a class in the afternoons. Up until last weekend, the group has been male. We spend time on the weekend going at each other a bit harder than normal classes. The people that usually show up are those of us with military and law enforcement backgrounds. We try to make things as real as possible. When we spar, it's full contact with light pads, so we tend to not see people who aren't prepared for this type of activity.

Two weeks ago, a young lady (17) stopped in with her father to observe the class and was interested in joining. My instructor walked her through the motions of joining and I assume she made it to the regular classes during the week (my trainer shows up in the morning).

So this past Saturday she walks right in and is ready to go. I still don't know how to handle her presence in the class. I haven't changed anything about what we focus on and when we decided to spar, she was the first person ready to go. I feel alittle odd having a female around, but I am happy that she decided to come.

My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.

ichibyoshi
22nd February 2006, 03:27
Not being a woman and also not much of an iaidoka but...

when I lived in Japan my homestay was a Japanese dance dojo. I found out a lot about how to wear kimono, esp as my GF at the time was also learning Nihon Buyo.

With women who have sharply defined waist and or hips (IOW gaikokujin), what they did was to wrap a towel around the waist (over the underclothes) so that the body profile was straight: no hour-glass figures in classical Japanese culture!). Over the towel the buyoka then wore the kimono, with all the various obi needed to hold it all in place.

It struck me that this *might* work for female iaidoka too...

b

ichibyoshi
22nd February 2006, 03:31
Very interesting article here (http://www.swordmaiden.com/armoredrose/5hurdles.php) from a woman's POV about how to persevere in MA training. Also very relevant to anyone involved in running a dojo who wants to provide a positive experience for female members.The rest of the site seems to be a pretty good resource too.

b

mews
22nd February 2006, 05:07
you know, given my shape - heaps-of-hips - I never even thought of going lower with the obi.

I shall experiment and report back.

I don't know how the towel thing would work - I'll ask one of my sensei who also studies Japanese dance what she thinks.

mew

plume
22nd February 2006, 09:52
Thanks, danke




Their loss. What style was it?


It was judo. As I said before, we were teenagers. The gender problem is certainly more accurate at this time



I mind being seen as a gender, rather than anything else. Sure, I've got a gender, but so does everyone else. It's not so important as character, and I'd rather count characters rather than "bits" of this sort or that, as dojomates.


I find it quite difficult for people to go over the gender. How to get into a physical contact with a woman, as says the 7thSamurai. Hey, it's again a question of respect, I think ! If a man doesn't feel at ease with that, the woman is gonna feel it. If the man can forget, in a way, the feminity of the student, it can be more easy.
Gender is a social construction. Men and women are physically different and also got other kind of education. If we could go over the gender and our expectations toward it, the partner stays a partner. Some have more suppleness, other more endurance, more memory, more instinct for movement.

That a teacher adapts his training for women ?? It seems to me the wrong way. But that a teacher sees above all a woman as a woman and not a student... Maybe should he try a class where there's only women, to get the feeling we can sometimes have :p

deaddoll
22nd February 2006, 09:54
having been away for about 20 hours ,I now have some catching up to do :p
so many good posts ,havent read all of them but ones I did interesting ....cant work out how to go back 15 posts and quote right now ,so sorry ,but ages ago I mentioned my first club didnt really lke me being around,and it was rightly asked WHY did I staed...Answer .. only club for 60 miles .....I like a challenge ...I really wanted to train....and you know I do belive they got used to me, even liked me there after a while and I did grade there after a few grades however I did move a few hundred miles away..
I have been to clubs when I have been away, where I have been patronized and now I find that so annoying I would like to tell a few ways I personally have dealt with some things ,but I now have to deal with sleep havent had any for ages due to work soo I will come back later...the subject of gays in the dojo think it was why are there not so many?came up,ineresting point ,I work with loads of gay men ,I will ask them ,they probally will run from me as they will think I want to practice on them ,and the guys at work think im scarey :p :p

ryoishin
22nd February 2006, 18:59
Just for the record I dont teach in the sense of having my own dojo just lower grades and when my sensei asks me to.

Our dojo is in Bavaria and we are having a seminar there in July that your more than welcome to attend.



Thanks,

John Timmons
Son of Ironfist
Ryoshin Dojo
Dublin
Ireland

bhoutros
22nd February 2006, 19:20
This is a very interesting read. I'm really enjoying it.

On Saturdays, I teach a class in the afternoons. Up until last weekend, the group has been male. We spend time on the weekend going at each other a bit harder than normal classes. The people that usually show up are those of us with military and law enforcement backgrounds. We try to make things as real as possible. When we spar, it's full contact with light pads, so we tend to not see people who aren't prepared for this type of activity.

Two weeks ago, a young lady (17) stopped in with her father to observe the class and was interested in joining. My instructor walked her through the motions of joining and I assume she made it to the regular classes during the week (my trainer shows up in the morning).

So this past Saturday she walks right in and is ready to go. I still don't know how to handle her presence in the class. I haven't changed anything about what we focus on and when we decided to spar, she was the first person ready to go. I feel alittle odd having a female around, but I am happy that she decided to come.

My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.

I have been doing Judo/Jujutsu for the past 4 years and for most of that time have been the only woman in my club. Suffice to say that noone altered their practice to accomodate me. I learned how to train. All this stuff about clubs needing to change the way that they practice for women is ridiculous. I didn't start training to learn how to do Judo/Jujutsu as a woman who is being pampered by a bunch of guys. I learned how to train because I wanted to be good at something that I found challenging. If you are scared of putting your hands on someone, then why teach her? She didn't walk in there for you to tell her that she is a cute little girl and it is sweet that she came to practice. She came to learn how to do what you do. Respect that. I grapple with guys of all different shapes and sizes and throw big guys and little guys. I get pinned and tapped and joint-locked and I do the same stuff to my opponents and training partners. I wouldn't be able to do what I have learned in that 4 years time if I had been treated like "the girl." I really appreciate that about the guys (and the new woman) in my club.

If your club is a good club, you are going to attract people who are interested in practicing. The reasons that alot of adult women don't practice martial arts has more to do with their own ideas about sports, competitiveness and strength than it has to do with your club. Most women think that martial arts are difficult and they think that martial arts are the domain of men. Most women don't like to fight.

Neil Yamamoto
22nd February 2006, 20:55
I remember meeting Laura when she first started training since I'm friends with several people in her dojo. I also rent space from her sensei. She ground her teeth together, toughed it out and gave as good as she got in training from the start. Didn't mean it was easy, but what that is any good is easy?

Since I follow pretty much the same rule, treat every one the same regardless of gender. I'm on Laura's side, she is 100% on target with how to address the issue.

As a side story, when Jon Bluming was here, there was a young buck at the seminar, an Army Lieutenant, early 20's and quite full of himself. I had just been smashed in the throat a few minutes earlier was was having some trouble breathing prior to starting to work on the ground drills with this guy. (turned out to be I had some damage to the cricoid cartilage) Young buck wasn't paying attention when I tapped to show I needed to take a break. I got pissed and whacked him a couple good ones upside the head to get his attention and tapped him out. Then went and sat down. Laura was then paired up with him and you could see this guy puffing up to show off. Laura then proceeded to tap him out three times in less then 2 minutes.

When Aaron, Laura's sensei, came over to check on me, I told him what she just did. Aaron made a big deal about it, much to the embarrassment of the young man. Laura, who had been training all of three month, done good. Would she have done as well if she had been catered to in the dojo as a mere female? Doubt it. Young Buck was very upset, his confidence in his masculinity threatened by a woman who was much smaller then himself. He came over to me for sympathy and I told him he was an idiot and could learn a lot if he dropped his macho attitude.

From my perspective, the playing up to special interests and catering to a person's emotional wants, needs, gender, is just a sure fire way to keep someone from getting any better and getting past their own issues. While it's not something I talk about much, forcing someone to confront themselves is a sensei's job. I know Aaron and I share this sentiment of how to treat students and it seems to work for us. We may differ in how we train, but the common attitude is why we get along.

Which also explains why I don't get may female students, most come in looking for something to reinforce their emotional wants and needs. I don't cater to that much. Of course, the smell in the dojo keeps most people away. Now, most males come in for the same reason. But they tend to stay longer for the male bonding that comes from beers and food after class.

Which reminds me, Laura, you still owe me a bowl of Pho and couple springrolls.

pgsmith
22nd February 2006, 21:11
A couple of cents from the outside ...

My main fear is that awkward touching thing. I never want to put a hand on a woman for any reason and now that I have one in my class, I am sure that that point will eventually come along. Not that what we do is inappropriate, but it just seems different.
Don't let it be different! The way I was taught, and the way I believe it should be, is that there is no gender in the dojo. The only people in the dojo are students, and their only requirement is to learn properly. If you treat some of the students differently because of their gender, you are stealing proper training from them and should be ashamed. Everyone has different ideas of how they wish to train. Some people don't want too rough of a training atmosphere while others thrive on it. Gender should be absolutely irrelevent in that regard, and it all starts with the instructor. If the instructor insists that it is irrelevent, the rest of the students will follow suit. I absolutely agree with Neil that everyone should be treated exactly the same within the confines of the dojo.

Sword styles vary, of course. Ours is supposed to be most like Sekiguchi Ryu (according to Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei) if that helps. The style is rather dynamic, with compression cuts rather than the Eishin-ryu style extended cut.
That's cool Emily, I never realized that before. Do you guys also do the Sekiguchi tobiichigai?

bhoutros
22nd February 2006, 21:33
From my perspective, the playing up to special interests and catering to a person's emotional wants, needs, gender, is just a sure fire way to keep someone from getting any better and getting past their own issues. While it's not something I talk about much, forcing someone to confront themselves is a sensei's job. I know Aaron and I share this sentiment of how to treat students and it seems to work for us. We may differ in how we train, but the common attitude is why we get along.

And thank you both for being that way. It's improved the quality of my life and taught me alot about how to deal with real world problems.


Which also explains why I don't get may female students, most come in looking for something to reinforce their emotional wants and needs. I don't cater to that much. Of course, the smell in the dojo keeps most people away. Now, most males come in for the same reason. But they tend to stay longer for the male bonding that comes from beers and food after class.

Actually, I think it is just the smell.


Which reminds me, Laura, you still owe me a bowl of Pho and couple springrolls.


Arm wrestle you for it? Actually, I take that back. Then I'd owe you two bowls.

deaddoll
22nd February 2006, 23:38
Yes, we have all been trying to say this all along, so dont think we want softy ooh be carefull thats me nail gone, the past two or three posters have you read all the post before, if you have maybe we were not clear, for this sorry.. what we have meant is, there are some of us gals who will turn up anywhere and get stuckin whatever and never have a big problem... But a female fighter can be nutured into an extremley fearsome fighter ..not all girls want the !!!! kicked out of them and a few ribs broken on there first night ...I think respect and the appropriate behavior to each individual is what we all mean man woman and beast and I know a few of them too

bhoutros
23rd February 2006, 00:03
Yes, we have all been trying to say this all along, so dont think we want softy ooh be carefull thats me nail gone, the past two or three posters have you read all the post before, if you have maybe we were not clear, for this sorry.. what we have meant is, there are some of us gals who will turn up anywhere and get stuckin whatever and never have a big problem... But a female fighter can be nutured into an extremley fearsome fighter ..not all girls want the !!!! kicked out of them and a few ribs broken on there first night ...I think respect and the appropriate behavior to each individual is what we all mean man woman and beast and I know a few of them too


I think that you have been saying this in your posts but I am hearing some different things about the subject from different posters. Your posts are a bit colloquial British so I had to do a re-read on them. Not that colloquialisms are bad, I just didn't understand everything from the first read-through. (I had to re-read bums and tums until I figured out that you meant was what American English would colloquially refer to as butts and guts. LOL @ me!) Not that you should have to post differently. But after reading your posts a few times through, it sounds like you went and worked out and didn't stress about discrepancies between men and women. But other folks have had to find their way to dojos that suited them. And from what I read of Emily's experiences, it sounds like she has really looked into the subject from the angle of attracting more women into the dojo and how to address it. If you are hoping to make dojos more "female friendly" then the larger culture of martial arts would probably have to change, as would our cultures in general. It seems like Emily was saying this as well. But after reading through many of the posts, I didn't feel like anyone was really boiling the issue down to point. It was being talked around.

Honestly, though, I was responding to the specific point that 7th samurai was making about there being a woman in the club and his uncertainty as to how to address it.

7thSamurai
23rd February 2006, 00:26
Good stuff! Thanks for the responses.

I suppose a few things that I should add are my personal experiences regarding females in the club. One occassion that comes to mind involved a lady in her late 30's who decided to take join the class with one of her lady friends. At the end of one class, we all paired off for sparring. When she stepped in front of me, I could tell she was a bit apprehensive about squaring off against me. That in mind, I let her come to me. My instructor just wanted her to get used to actually hitting someone and making contact with another person. So she threw a few punches and started with a few kicks. At one point, she threw a kick and I raised my leg to block like I pretty much always do. She made shin to shin contact, when down and had to be carried off of the mat. It's something that I always do, kind of a reflex, and it never bothers me when I catch a shin there (been playing soccer for 26 years). Later that week, she phoned my instructor to claim that she went to the Dr., was advised to stay at home. She never returned to class and I am told by my instructor (a female) that this person felt I used excessive force and claims to have spent the better part of two months nursing her injury.

I suppose my reaction to seeing this this new person attending the class on Saturday is that the people that normally show up come in knowing full well the nature of the class and the reasons we train the way that we do. It is just different.

I won't be changing the way that we do things since I feel that this is what we are there to do in the first place. I am really excited to have a female in there trying it out. I always worry when I see one trying things out that they are going to think that we're hitting too hard, that throw was a bit much, etc. At the same time, I want them to realize that this is what it feels like to get hit, this is what it feels like to fall down when someone is trying to put you there, and this is what you have to do to get out of it. I don't like what I see sometimes at demonstrations or seminars when you have a female student going through the motions of a technique without really knowing what it is like to put up a fight.

bhoutros
23rd February 2006, 00:37
First let me reiterate what deaddoll said about not needing to beat the crap out of folks the first time they walk into a room. New students, male or female are rarely good enough to step onto the mat and do the regular workout that senior students do. However...
There are always people who come into the club not realizing that they are getting in over their heads. I have seen guys come into our club once and never come back because they can't handle the workout. I was working with a guy on his second class one night. We were doing newazaa and we were both in high-fours face to face. I moved around to his side, pushed him over and pinned him. He never came back. I mean all I did was pin him! I think he was too out of shape, though, because he walked off the mat and barfed. Anyway, I have seen women come for 3-6 months and not come back because they have injuries and can't deal with it after awhile. If what you are doing is any good, lots of people are going to turn on their heels and walk out. It's just the nature of it. It's like anything else. I have a close friend who stopped running because her knees "hurt." Truth? She didn't like going running. She moved to another city and joined a field hockey team. Funny, people who play field hockey run a hell of alot. When I started training at my club, I wanted to be there. I got hurt at times and still do and that's just something I accept about it. I knew from the beginning that I was doing a contact sport and knew that it would be tough. What's funny is that when I first started, I was so bad at it that the only person who could have really done any harm to me was me. I was impossible to wrestle because I would just freak out and go rigid. After awhile you learn how to move. That's just part and parcel of any activity.

7thSamurai
23rd February 2006, 00:55
I understand what you're saying. I have seen weight lifters come to class thinking that bigger means better and then not come back after they find out that having muscle doesn't always mean you're going to win. It's a learning process for me as I've never been faced with this situation before.

mawashi geri
23rd February 2006, 08:18
Hi everybody.Nice topic.First off,I don't practice martial arts myself.I did some karate back when I was little but I dropped out .However the topic is interesting cos I have always been unable to cope with unfair accusations(allegations).I personally(I am a man)would,cos of my own history(my mother used to make me feel guilty all the time for things I didn't do)change my behaviour if a woman accused me of touching her breasts on purpose during training.Now,she might have issues of her own,that's not my point.But an unfair accusation outside of the dojo(ie,saying this man is a pig,he touched my breasts when training)would still make me feel unease and not cos I don't like touching breasts,cos of the unfair allegation.I plan on starting aikido,although as I said in an old post here,the nearest dojo is 50 km's from here and I have no car,so far.Well,that's another problem though.So that is an issue for men who have a personal history of unfair allegations,specially from women.It might be the same for women who had unfair allegations from men also,although I believe(I might be wrong)those are rare.So,when all's said and done this might be an issue for the "weaker"persons out there,ie persons who can't stand an unfair allegation.Regards,Massimo

Chuck.Gordon
23rd February 2006, 10:22
That's cool Emily, I never realized that before. Do you guys also do the Sekiguchi tobiichigai?

Heya Paul,

Emily's statement is based on conversations I had with Kiyama Hiroshi Sensei (who's got more roku- and nanadans in more arts than I can remember, but Peter Boylan coule enlighten us to the details if he's paying attention) a few years back.

I'd taken a handful of students up to Peter's place in Detroit to meet and train with Kiyama Sensei for several days (had a blast! He's a very cool guy and a truly outstanding teacher). Toward the end of the shindig, he asked me to demo some of our sword basics. He watched, asked for more, then asked if we also did kempo and jujutsu, and asked for a demo (Jody Holeton kindly consented to uke for me).

I answered in the affirmative and he started chatting about his old days, when he'd gotten a teaching license in Sekiguchi Ryu, but had stopped practicing it after the war. He said what we were doing looked and felt like the style he'd learned as a young man.

That's the only point of info we have to go on, but after watching a few Sekiguchi vids, there's a lot there that feels familiar. I can only hope to get to Japan (Kiyama S. has invited me to come over and meet the current Sekiguchi headmaster someday) or get together with some folks who've been inthe organization to learn more and determine if, indeed, there is a connection.

If there is, I suspect it got filtered and altered in transition somewhere, and probably got mashed-up with Seitei a bit. Our first few batto kata are shaped very similar to Mae, Ushiro, Uke Nagashi, etc., though the approach is different and we don't use seiza at all (the Cuhden set is done starting from iai-goshi, however ).

We use a foot-switching tactic (I was taught it was called chidori ashi), similar to, but not as dramatic as tobiichigai, or atl east the one demo'd in the tapes I've seen.

One of my personal ambitions is to track down all the influences to the system and codify it a bit more. My teacher, gods love him, wasn't very good at that sort of thing ...

Chuck

deaddoll
23rd February 2006, 11:34
Good stuff! Thanks for the responses.

. At the end of one class, we all paired off for sparring. When she stepped in front of me, I could tell she was a bit apprehensive about squaring off against me. That in mind, I let her come to me. My instructor just wanted her to get used to actually hitting someone and making contact with another person. So she threw a few punches and started with a few kicks. At one point, she threw a kick and I raised my leg to block like I pretty much always do. She made shin to shin contact, when down and had to be carried off of the mat. It's something that I always do, kind of a reflex, and it never bothers me when I catch a shin there (been playing soccer for 26 years). Later that week, she phoned my instructor to claim that she went to the Dr., was advised to stay at home. She never returned to class and I am told by my instructor (a female) that this person felt I used excessive force and claims to have spent the better part of two months nursing her injury.

Oh yes I have come across this before, some ladies and gentlemen are not suited to the Martial art they choose,some start because they are really interested in the ART and Asian culture and really donet anticipate the reality of it, and that at some point they will get hurt and have regular pains and bruises of course(training badges) some start because they really dont think it can be that hard and MAKE CONTACT aaaggghhh...
I was years ago on an international cse a week long one ...hundreds there and I wondered why guys from my club and other people were avoiding this Black belt female even just walking off, I got with her as a partner as they wouldnot tell me why...well when we had to stop to listen I legged it ...in pair work she would not have ANY contact at all.she said she just did not belive in it and she was the teacher at her school....of course we kept this as a running gag at our DoJo for awhile..
I know Men sometimes leave a club for the same reason they get an injury, but the nature of the boy is they tend to say It was boring !!! not oooh they hurt me ....
A sensei should get the measure of the new person and pair them appropriately,in this case the lady I feel was not suited, if only I had got the address of that Black belt lady actually I think I can remember her name ....send the oooohhh dont touch it hurts students to her ....we can only help and guide and TLC when needed but at the end of the day no favours are done if you stay scared forever got to be guided and tenderised ,some ladys HATE a bruise ,I had a tiny bruise at work,I hadnt even noticed it and the girls at worked thought Id been maimed ....I wear a long sleeve top for MAIMING DAYS ,AS IM SURE THEY WOULD FAINT ...but I like it when I see a nice bruise means I had a real good time at class .dosent it ...oh ok bit strange ,but arent we all..

Harlan
23rd February 2006, 15:02
People have different pain threshholds. If a shin hurts, it hurts. I'm not studying MA to get maimed.

Of course, I study kobudo. Perhaps more control is expected.

bhoutros
23rd February 2006, 18:08
some ladys HATE a bruise ,I had a tiny bruise at work,I hadnt even noticed it and the girls at worked thought Id been maimed ....I wear a long sleeve top for MAIMING DAYS ,AS IM SURE THEY WOULD FAINT ...but I like it when I see a nice bruise means I had a real good time at class .dosent it ...oh ok bit strange ,but arent we all..

yeah, the bruises you get from full contact freak people out. I did a teensy weensy amount of badly taught Muay Thai a while back and would get big leg bruises from that. Nowadays because of all the wrestling and takedowns, I usually I have fingerprint bruises. It was alot worse when I started. I dont' get ken gripped as much now. I guess I avoid it better. It's funny how some men freak out about it and others could care less. I have an ex who would give me no end of crap for it (note that he is an ex) but the guy I am seeing now understands and is cool about it. My female physical therapist gets a little weird about it sometimes as well, but this is a woman who will run 20 miles with shin splints. I dunno, like I said before, people do the forms and sports that they like to do. My dad used to ask me if I could just do ballet instead but face it, ballerinas are some of the most injured people in the world. You can break your wrists snowboarding and you can blow out your knees running and skiing. Everything has an element of physical risk. At least you can toss the ladies at work around a little if they really get to you, you know?

deaddoll
25th February 2006, 06:08
Years ago I had a bruised face, really black n blue and purple the whole of my left side, now it didnt really hurt but looked bloody awful.
I was amazed as a girl how many men whom were strangers to me would stop me in the street and offer to be my champion, lots of who did this ? I will get them etc.....sometimes as the bruise was there for along time ,I used to wonder what they were on about as I used to forget about it.
.
I actually did the bruise myself in a moment of stupidness when I accidentally sommersaulted off the end of a trampoline and landed on my head (at least it was damage limitation) :p

I have had 3 black eyes (not at the same time :rolleyes: ) all of which I did myself,but find them ammusing because you forget you got them ,people stare and you look back at them as if to say who you looking at ,then you just look a right bruiser !!!!!
so if you get a black eye just wear lots of goth make up and people wont stare :p

Rin
25th February 2006, 18:09
There was a female in a class I used to go to that liked to hit hard, but cried when you returned the favor, and even admitted that she didn't like to get hit. For a while those of us who sparred with her just did defensive type moves with her, but then we got tired of taking her bruises and started to hit her hard as well. The males in my class never pulled any punches with me. I've had my knee kicked out while sparring - it was an accident, of course, and I stood up and kept on going (probably looking rather goofy,but hey - ). I've had injuries to my hand and continued to spar. Most of my classmates were good about trying to give me a good workout without trying to take advantage of any injuries I suffered. Most of the students who went full force were the beginners. They either had something to prove, or felt as if they were fighting for their life...as more senior students, we never tried to beat down the beginners because we didn't want to scare them off. I looked on it as a chance to work on various defenses, though sometimes it got out of hand and I had to take back control of the situation (done, again, without beating them down). Some people look at sparring with a higher rank as a fight for life - I always looked at it as a chance to learn from someone more experienced than myself.

When I first started, one of my male classmates did accidentially touch my breast while sparring, and felt really bad about it. After class he appologised to me, and said he really had trouble finding a good zone to hit me in because he was nervous about accidentally touching me in certain places. I told him not to worry about it - fact 1: I have breats. Fact 2: in a contact sport, there is always the possibility that they will get touched,hit, brushed, grabbed - whatever. Fact 3: if I ever have to use what I'm learning for self defense, the person attacking me is not going to be careful about not touching bits of me. After that, he was never shy again about sparring with me, which was a great help to me.

I have found that most men that I meet who don't train tend to be afraid or nervous around me when they find out I do train. Its made for a few first date only type thing with very polite endings (shake your hand good night, please don't rip off my arm - yes, that was actually said to me and all I did was mention that I take karate over the course of the getting to know you dinner).

I train because I love it, the changes it has made in my life have been wonderful, and I will never stop.

mews
26th February 2006, 00:05
gee, the locker room I used was full of conversations between female type people comparing honestly-gotten bruises. I can think of a black-belt whose boyfriend refused to walk down the street with her when she had a black eye - cute Asian young lady, big, tall white guy - "I know what they will be thinking! nope, not, forget it - meet you there, honey."

I think a lot of this thread is generalizing 'women', while we are a bunch of individuals with a wide range of skills and tolerences. ditto for guys -

Now, while you can say "in my experience, most women [and I trained with XXX number of them] react. in such-and-so way ..." , you are doing yourself, your training and the training of "women in general" a disservice if you generalize from a sample of eight to half of humanity.

I've known men and women who didn't like to spar.

I've known men and women who told me of weird trainng-dreams related to powerlessness {the best was Ed, my 6'4" sempai - you don't want to know what came climbing though HIS window in his dreams!}

:::utter contempt mode on:::
I've known too many men, speaking of the "oh, don't hit me" bit, who want to dish it out, especially if he perceives you as weaker[meaning all women, any green belt, and older guys in general] but who fold and go into spasms of
- "oh, osu, sempai", grovel, run - when they are lined up with someone who wants to rumble with them.

But yes, the "Oh, don't hit me...THUD" type happens in females, too.

:::utter contempt mode off:::

actually, I will always fondly remember Sempai Anthony - a one-fight wizard -
be you Bambi or be you King Kong, you got the same fight. The guy had no concept of a throttle. yeesh! :rolleyes: but, when he lined up to fight those who could give him a hard time - he fought. A saving grace, I thought as I nursed various bruises. [Off the floor he was ok - just no throttle - that's a training flaw, though]

mew

deaddoll
26th February 2006, 08:02
well thread was womens issues so we generally tend to talk.about womens issues.I will chew over what you said at work ,Im not back till tomorrow ,have fun..

mews
27th February 2006, 02:49
'its true this thread is women's issues - I just get annoyed when many of the "women's issues" are caused by "men's issues" of either training with or teaching women. :::grump:::

And, when I teach I look at my students as individuals -
"I teach everybody the same way" just doesn't do it for me.
::::grump again:::

Now here's a women's issue - boy, I hate when I have cramps and am taking class - I feel like I'm sawed off from the hips down. :rolleyes:

:::wanders off to feed Charlotte & Emily, her pet dinosaurs:::


mew

Andrew S
27th February 2006, 11:22
Not exactly budo related, but I recall hearing about an incident that occured at my university (before I started there).
Story goes like this: Young man walks out a door and holds it open for the person behind him. Person behind him is an extreme feminist and gives him a mouthful for patronizing her. Young man punches her. His response when questioned about the incident? "Well, if it had been a bloke, I would have punched him, too."

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 11:41
'its true this thread is women's issues - I just get annoyed when many of the "women's issues" are caused by "men's issues" ::

Good point ,love em as we do ,you are right ,but somewhere along the line the issues thing gets reversed and they get issues :)

And, when I teach I look at my students as individuals -
"I teach everybody the same way" just doesn't do it for me.

Yes I agree,to teach the same way to everyone is wrong ,I think i understood alot of the posts as meaning not to do females an injustice in there training and go as hard as they can handle ,of course this also applys to the men.... to tell someone they did the move correct or not attack well enough so as they end up with no defence ,is going to turn real bad on them if they ever need to do for real ,or even iof they go as a visitor to another dojo !!



Now here's a women's issue - boy, I hate when I have cramps and am taking class - I feel like I'm sawed off from the hips down. :rolleyes:
:
Ah yes ,the dreaded cramps ,,I start taking Ibuprofen the day before ,as this is how this drug works on cramps to wait until you get just makes you sick, might help a bit but not so good..
If I am teaching that night might find we do alot of stretching as this helps me ....
also I wear a black gi most of the time for training ,I would not feel confident in white at this time ..
hey just had a thought all the nice men who have been following these threads will have just ran away ..come back be brave :rolleyes: !!!!!!!!!!!!

mew
my reply wont post until i added ten charecters so here they are :)

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 12:01
just an apology for the whole of the top post being in quote shade,thats why it wouldnt post ...silly me total user error,in my defence I did a 20 hr day yesterday :) well I know week defence but only one I got apart from stupidity

Harlan
27th February 2006, 14:46
The way I look at it, there is no such thing as gender specific issues. Just gender specific mindsets.

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 17:37
The way I look at it, there is no such thing as gender specific issues. Just gender specific mindsets.
of course there are gender issues .....men dont bleed constantly for 5 days and live ...we do.... and anatomy is also a training issue ..things girls deal with that boys dont ..pregnancy and training ,can all be issues :)

mews
27th February 2006, 17:51
of course there are gender issues .....men dont bleed constantly for 5 days and live ...we do.... and anatomy is also a training issue ..things girls deal with that boys dont ..pregnancy and training ,can all be issues :)



and while groin kicks :::hurt:::, they are not usually defining moments in our lives...

mew

Harlan
27th February 2006, 17:52
I think they are only 'issues' if they get in the way of training to a substantial level that they need to be addressed.

'Bleeding'? Give me a break...you might as well be talking about incontinance.

Pregnancy? This is mostly a matter of individual responsibility. I have seen women joggers and athletes training to a point that I considered dangerous and foolhardy while pregnant, but in a 'normal' dojo the student needs to be proactive in informing others of their limits. Not much different than if I am recuperating from an injury.

Boobs? Get a good bra, and learn to keep your elbows down.

You bring up anatomy...I'm more concerned with my aging back and shot cartilage than aging mammary glands.

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 18:04
I think they are only 'issues' if they get in the way of training to a substantial level that they need to be addressed.

'Bleeding'? Give me a break...you might as well be talking about incontinance.

Pregnancy? This is mostly a matter of individual responsibility. I have seen women joggers and athletes training to a point that I considered dangerous and foolhardy while pregnant, but in a 'normal' dojo the student needs to be proactive in informing others of their limits. Not much different than if I am recuperating from an injury.

Boobs? Get a good bra, and learn to keep your elbows down.

You bring up anatomy...I'm more concerned with my aging back and shot cartilage than aging mammary glands.

lets use the words topics,disscusion and problems then............. are you male or female I ask,sorry cant tell from my name my apology ...
A new female starting out might find a problem in all the above,and there are alot of female Martial artists on here with alot of advice .and experiance.... as for anatomy,there are many types of martial art and these dont all involve elbows down !!!!!! a post ages ago(sorry cant remember and too lazy to go back.hey im honest) there was a real good bit of advice for a fellow female on here regarding Iado and the towel around the waist,this was interesting,so lets all just understand that if you dont think any of the above can sometimes be a problem ,you either lucky or you are a boy ...

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 18:10
the obi and the towel was from Ichibyoshi to Emily and Mews I belive .... I also found it very interesting stuff,I uused to do Kendo wiish Id known that then :)

Harlan
27th February 2006, 18:18
Last time I checked, my gender was female. However, since this isn't a 'female only' thread...that really shouldn't matter. I'm sorry...was this a help thread targeted for young, females new to the martial arts?

I'll bow out now.

deaddoll
27th February 2006, 18:22
No it was not just for that ,but can be and can also be all it has been so no need to bow out ,you not in the dojo or on stage....nice to have a bit of fire ,and apologies for not knowing your gender....Im sure you have alot more input ..what martial art do you study by the way.....?

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 19:14
Now here's a women's issue - boy, I hate when I have cramps and am taking class - I feel like I'm sawed off from the hips down. :rolleyes:

:::wanders off to feed Charlotte & Emily, her pet dinosaurs:::


mew

Just a tip that I learned recently that WORKS for cramps. Take 400 mgs of vitamin E 3 days before your period and the first two days of your period. I was stunned by the fact that no ibuprofen passed my lips this month. I am a believer. Avoiding ibuprofen is a plus for me as it isn't very good for you.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 19:33
I think they are only 'issues' if they get in the way of training to a substantial level that they need to be addressed.

'Bleeding'? Give me a break...you might as well be talking about incontinance.

Pregnancy? This is mostly a matter of individual responsibility. I have seen women joggers and athletes training to a point that I considered dangerous and foolhardy while pregnant, but in a 'normal' dojo the student needs to be proactive in informing others of their limits. Not much different than if I am recuperating from an injury.

Boobs? Get a good bra, and learn to keep your elbows down.

You bring up anatomy...I'm more concerned with my aging back and shot cartilage than aging mammary glands.

I won't go to class on the first real day of my period. And as far as boobs go? They don't really give me a problem. I have to agree with Harlan, though. I think body size discrepancies are a bigger issue than gender discrepancies. It's funny, a group of folks were sitting around the other night talking about crying on the mat. There is a new woman in our club who is tough as hell and her throws are phenomenal (black belt in Judo) and she was talking about how annoying it is to deal with a training partner who cries and that after a while she'd do what she could to make them cry. I thought that was kind of funny.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 20:04
Now that is interesting. If a man had said that...it would be an issue. Is it one here, and is it a gender one?


she was talking about how annoying it is to deal with a training partner who cries and that after a while she'd do what she could to make them cry.

Ron Tisdale
27th February 2006, 20:10
I guess I have two thoughts about that. On the one hand, if they are crying in the dojo, I'd hate to see them have to defend themselves on 'the street' (wherever that is).

On the other, I could see a senior instructor taking on the responsibility to 'toughen someone up', but I'd be really hesitant for just any joe blow (or josaphine) to do it.

Best,
Ron (a man, I think...er...) ;)

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 20:14
Now that is interesting. If a man had said that...it would be an issue. Is it one here, and is it a gender one?

I think what she was saying is being taken a touch out of context, although I agree that if a man had said that it would be considered an issue. We were talking about a woman who had started around the same time as I did who would cry every single time she hit the mat. After awhile, it gets tedious to deal with. What she was saying (the woman who had made the comment) was that it made her feel annoyed having to deal with a crying person all the time. I don't think that she would go out of her way to trouble/hurt someone. I probably shouldn't have stated that the way that I did because after re-reading it, I am misrepresented the conversation and the way she stated what she said.

But like you were saying, it's annoying to train with someone who cries wolf everytime you spar with them. And I think that is what she was saying as well.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 20:19
Training is about control. Self-control. Whining about one's training partner doesn't fix anything.

Men aren't the only ones who have 'compensation' issues.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 20:26
I guess I have two thoughts about that. On the one hand, if they are crying in the dojo, I'd hate to see them have to defend themselves on 'the street' (wherever that is).

Best,
Ron (a man, I think...er...) ;)

If someone attacks me on the street, there is a good chance that I'd start crying at some point. It is totally dependent on the situation. Does the attacker have a gun? A big piece of wood? Did they catch me by surprise? Is the attacker big or small? Is there anywhere for me to run to? Can I defend myself against this person or do I just need to get the heck out of the situation? Can I get out of the situation? Too many variables in that one. And I have been known to shed a few tears when stressed out. It's not that crying itself is a bad thing. It's that it is disruptive as hell in a class environment and embarassing as hell, too.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 20:30
Crying in the dojo has nothing to do with how one will respond to a situation requiring self defense; it doesn't necessarily get in the way of thinking and reacting.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 20:32
Training is about control. Self-control. Whining about one's training partner doesn't fix anything.

Men aren't the only ones who have 'compensation' issues.

I didn't think that she was whining about her training partner. I think that she was reinforcing a good point that someone who is crying all the time impacts the group. There are group dynamics in every club. If someone is disruptive it impacts the group. You were stating earlier that you didn't like a training partner that you once had because she would get upset when you sparred with her so you just stopped sparring with her. And it sounds like it impacted everyone who you trained with because you all stopped sparring with her. Same thing.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 20:35
Crying in the dojo has nothing to do with how one will respond to a situation requiring self defense; it doesn't necessarily get in the way of thinking and reacting.

That is exactly what I was saying. In addition to the fact that training in the dojo isn't comparable to street violence.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 20:41
Not I. I only train with my teacher.


You were stating earlier that you didn't like a training partner that you once had because she would get upset when you sparred with her so you just stopped sparring with her. And it sounds like it impacted everyone who you trained with because you all stopped sparring with her. Same thing.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 20:45
Not I. I only train with my teacher...private lessons.

My bad. I read Rin's post earlier and remembered it as you. Sorry for the misquote. But if you only train with your teacher and have private lessons then you don't have to deal with different types of training partners. So, no group dynamics or criers in your club.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 20:51
Do you think that I've never been partnered with a 'cryer', or a 'slacker', or a bully, etc. in some function in life? While it is true I don't carry a bo around with me at work, or at a PTA meeting, my training is always present in everything I do.

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 21:07
Do you think that I've never been partnered with a 'cryer', or a 'slacker', or a bully, etc. in some function in life? While it is true I don't carry a bo around with me at work, or at a PTA meeting, my training is always present in everything I do.


I think it is good that you get so much out of your training, Harlan. It sounds like it has an extremely positive impact on your life.

Harlan
27th February 2006, 21:13
Kudos to all the women that get more physical than me. Those that opt for more physically strenuous training.

I'll shut up now, and listen. :)

(Edited later: hey...what happened to the post that I'm responding to?)

bhoutros
27th February 2006, 21:22
Kudos to all the women that get more physical than me. Those that opt for more physically strenuous training.

I'll shut up now, and listen. :)

(Edited later: hey...what happened to the post that I'm responding to?)


I re-read my original response and felt like I was being too abrasive and not respecting the fact that we all have different training styles and different reasons for doing our training.

mews
27th February 2006, 22:39
'Bleeding'? Give me a break...you might as well be talking about incontinance.



Well, one is normal - the other is, I hope, not a normal event in anyone's life!

ta,
mew

Harlan
27th February 2006, 22:49
Actually, after nine pregnancies...it could be.

mews
28th February 2006, 04:09
Actually, after nine pregnancies...it could be.


gleep! ya got me there :eek: - how about I say 'normal' as 'usual functioning system' as opposed to 'the system has been um, considerably stressed' ??

mew

deaddoll
28th February 2006, 15:39
Harlan are you super woman.!!!..you work ..you train ....you go to pta meets and have NINE children...how much time do you get for training and do you encourage your children to train ,you got a dojo there just in your kids !!!

Harlan
28th February 2006, 16:01
Looks good on paper. :)

You make assumptions.

The point that was lost is that I just don't buy into female only issues. But, I've come to understand in this thread that that is because I don't have any (based, probably, on my low level of training).

bhoutros
28th February 2006, 17:41
Looks good on paper. :)

You make assumptions.

The point that was lost is that I just don't buy into female only issues. But, I've come to understand in this thread that that is because I don't have any (based, probably, on my low level of training).


It's not about level of training, though. It's about how you percieve yourself in light of your training which is a good point that you make. If you make excuses all the time, you don't get good at what you do. Not that I don't make excuses and struggle with stuff. It's just that you have to focus on getting in to the club to get your workout in and if you use the fact that you are female to hold yourself back you don't get anywhere. It's hard and I stuggle with that. Actually, the thing that I have struggled with most is how small I am compared to the guys I train with and how much I want to win. Turns out that guys who are alot bigger than me don't always expect to win against guys who are bigger than they are. It's a funny mindset that I think alot of women get into where we are sort of upset about not being invincible when it comes to physical tasks. Unless, of course, you are a really large strong woman. But even big women that I know struggle with that stuff. And learning that has been really vital. That most people who are physically competitive have to accept their physical limitations without it halting their progress.

deaddoll
1st March 2006, 09:14
The level and amont of training I feel does come into it .... I myself now dont have any issues I dont think, but over the years I have had to deal with some . still I havent had too many....but even as far a piece of armour being designed for the male body and having to customizde to get to fit was at one point a small issue....
Now I watch as other women go through all sorts of stuff,there are many women in the Dojo I train at, the men are lovely they are not causing issues but sometimes a new guy might and then there are all there men at home ,but there are alot of couples in class.....there are not alot of constant things but these are perceptions over the many years and many countries that I have trained in...obviously the more you are exposed the more you see..

EDGordon
5th March 2006, 16:48
A couple of cents from the outside ...
Don't let it be different! The way I was taught, and the way I believe it should be, is that there is no gender in the dojo.

Me too. Honestly I don't even think about it any more. Sometimes funny things come up, or the opportunity for a joke. That's about it.
I'm fortunate to be about 174 cm tall and 75 fit kilos, and I started with weights and cardio before I ever stepped on the mat, and it made a huge difference. The second revolution in my training was getting Rolfed, it just got so much easier to move.


That's cool Emily, I never realized that before. Do you guys also do the Sekiguchi tobiichigai?

I think you and Chuck covered that off-forum. We do chidori-ashi, which on my bad knee days I have learned to kind of "float" through. I was only really able to do that after being Rolfed. Maybe an orthopedic surgeon can help me do it without wondering if I am going to limp the next day. Will find out next week. Will mention that on Budo/Body.

I love 2nd dojo too, and don't think the bonding's just male.
All my dear old aikido sensei used it to "tell stories on me" as I tried to hide in my beer... ;-D

-Emily
(been to busy to play on 'puter and trying to catch up)

EDGordon
5th March 2006, 17:01
Good stuff! Thanks for the responses.
That in mind, I let her come to me. My instructor just wanted her to get used to actually hitting someone and making contact with another person. So she threw a few punches and started with a few kicks. At one point, she threw a kick and I raised my leg to block like I pretty much always do. She made shin to shin contact, when down and had to be carried off of the mat.

I remember training for almost a year in a Wing Tsun dojo. I had my black belt in aikido and I was kind of "branching out". My mentors had made sure I was comfortable hitting, and there was one great guy who could really take it, and I could hit or kick him as hard as I wanted. Once I figured out it was really OK, I kicked him onto a piece of furniture more than once. Maybe he was just having fun and making me feel good, but it did help.

These people gradually worked me up to getting hit, as did my own stupidity.

Anyway, at one time I was training with another junior in the WT kwoon, and we were kicking each other in the stomach. We were using pads and waling on each other. Another woman in the class, about half my size but very tough, was the guy's next partner. He forgot to ramp down for her size, kicked her into the wall, and she was out of it for a while- not unconscious but nauseated.

This was mass mistake, not a gender one.


I won't be changing the way that we do things since I feel that this is what we are there to do in the first place.

This is a fine and good by me. However, one of the definitions of insanity is doing the same thing again and again, and expecting different results.


At the same time, I want them to realize that this is what it feels like to get hit, this is what it feels like to fall down when someone is trying to put you there, and this is what you have to do to get out of it. I don't like what I see sometimes at demonstrations or seminars when you have a female student going through the motions of a technique without really knowing what it is like to put up a fight.

Even worse if they become instructors...
*shudder*

-Emily

EDGordon
5th March 2006, 17:21
gee, the locker room I used was full of conversations between female type people comparing honestly-gotten bruises.

I got a bruise on my left orbital bone (eye socket rim) in the shower yesterday. From my husband's elbow. Before a party... I went kinda heavy on the eye makeup... not quite Goth but, erm, dramatic.

During my WT classes and in the beginning of my aikido career my forearms were black and blue. I still sport the occasional mark here and there, but since I'm a massage therapist, I don't risk my hands nearly like I used to.
I'm older, I don't heal as fast, I have a job which requires my full physical coordination. I don't take risks like I used to. A couple of fairly serious injuries (separated shoulder and torn deltoid ligament left ankle) has slowed me down and made me less careless. Some throws and techniques paralyze me with fear, and I help my partners walk me through it until I can at least try.

My method is to test my everpresent initial theory that I can't, until I can.

I used to work out with some folks (Warui-Hiza, yes it's supposed to be funny ;) ) with fukuro shinai and no pads. Lots of sting, bruises often. Tons of lumps and bumps in wooden weapons training.
Chuck is still working on my flinch from getting hit, and hurt, so much. He is great and only rarely taps me with anything. Never mind the black eyes in the shower! ;-D



I can think of a black-belt whose boyfriend refused to walk down the street with her when she had a black eye - cute Asian young lady, big, tall white guy - "I know what they will be thinking! nope, not, forget it - meet you there, honey."

LOL!

Yes, we are generalizing, but if we get too specific, I'm not sure we'll have as much fun.

-Emily

EDGordon
5th March 2006, 17:45
NINE children? Yes, this will do a number on your pelvic floor.
Men who have undergone prostate surgery have similar problems. I had a male client who had the surgery, and joined an incontinence support group. He was in his late 50s, and a very brave little fellow. He became very popular in the group due to his dry (erm) humor.



The point that was lost is that I just don't buy into female only issues. But, I've come to understand in this thread that that is because I don't have any (based, probably, on my low level of training).

If you don't have any issues, consider it a blessing.
I have been a budo junkie since about 1989, and all kinds of wierd things have happened. Perhaps it's just not being shocked or surprised any more, and just dealing.
I was on the edge of tears, mostly from frustration, through the first year of my training, and during some later times when I was really being pushed.
I'd cry in the car on the way home, but not on the mat.
A lot of it had to do with built-up stress and emotional problems, not with anything going on on the mat at all. People who are going through this are probably in a huge battle in other parts of their life, and are, I guess, trying to work something out on the mat.
I'm not sure how I feel about that, it certainly made me into a better person, but I'm also insanely reticent about inflicting my problems on others. I don't want my baggage to be someone else's problem, however, in the close relationships and challenges extant in dojo, it's kind of unavoidable.

At one time I was training with my soon-to-be ex-husband in the same dojo. We would have to voluntarily call off what we were doing, if emotions started to surface. This is the same guy who wouldn't listen to me about anything on the mat even though I was about three years senior.
I also trained with my fiancee and his ex-girlfriend in the same dojo. That worked out better, because we would gang up on him and tease him unmercifully (he had the grace to enjoy it, and it gave her a healthy outlet).

All of this has helped me have compassion for people Having a Bad Time. At the same time, I'm past the point of wanting to "get aggression out" on the mat, I'm there for the focus and the training, and I don't have any time whatsoever for abusive or other icky behaviours.

-Emily
(who hopes she didn't pi$$ anyone off with the pun)

mews
5th March 2006, 18:52
All of this has helped me have compassion for people Having a Bad Time. At the same time, I'm past the point of wanting to "get aggression out" on the mat, I'm there for the focus and the training, and I don't have any time whatsoever for abusive or other icky behaviours.

-Emily
(who hopes she didn't pi$$ anyone off with the pun)


1) puns are life. who could object? wince, howl, or whine, yes... but object??? :rolleyes:

2) yeah, I've noticed less and less tolerance for any type of 'icky' stuff. been there, tried not to do that, hate the t-shirt. but then, Ive noticed my tolerance outside of training has dropped dramatically in the last 5-10 years too.

mew

Weezie
5th March 2006, 23:03
I am the only woman at my dojo, and as far as I know, the only woman currently practicing my art in the midwest. It's been YEARS since I've trained with another woman (ocasionally a 14 year old girl, but that's it.)

Most of the time I forget my gender sompletely. Not sure why - I just do.

Sometimes I think my husband gets a little jealous, but mostly because he doesn't fully understand what we do in class. If I could get him to sit in on one one day he might get it, but he won't.

As far as bruises go - I don't mind them and think of them as a badge of honor. This is dangerous stuff. Sometimes you get hurt! (the one bruise I had to explain came from my son the week before Christmas last year, when he gave me a black eye with a toy hammer. He was 20 months old at the time!)

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Sorry if this is rambling, but I'm multitasking......

Maybe we could get a forum for us goils.

Joseph Svinth
8th March 2006, 03:34
If somebody wants to moderate a women's forum, let us know.

Margaret Lo
8th March 2006, 15:20
If somebody wants to moderate a women's forum, let us know.

I wouldn't touch it with a rokushakubo. Helllllppp....

Sapporo Ichiban
8th March 2006, 16:06
I volunteer to moderate a Women's Forum.

While not a woman, I:

(1) Am married and have been monogamous for the past 10 years (good grief, has it been that long?) and plan on remaining monogamous. Basically, no one has to worry about me hitting on them.

(2) I completely believe in equality for women, although, truthfully, I've never been able to spar/fight a woman in anything close to a committed manner. Intellectually, I understand what folks like The Yamamoto are saying and that going easy on a woman doesn't help her and doesn't help me. Despite that, for some reason I just could never go all-out. As my wife can attest, I'd rather get beat up.

(3) I swear that if a flame war develops in the Woman's Forum I will conduct myself with both courtesy and professionalism. Never will I utter the word 'Catfight!'

Based on the above, I believe I would make a compelling candidate for the position of Women's Forum Moderator. If I may be of service, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Harlan
8th March 2006, 16:57
'Girls don't play baseball. But you can watch.'

Heard that too many times as a youth to be interested in playing in a 'girl's only game'. I'll mix it up with the boys...thank you.

Margaret Lo
8th March 2006, 17:02
I volunteer to moderate a Women's Forum.

(3) I swear that if a flame war develops in the Woman's Forum I will conduct myself with both courtesy and professionalism. Never will I utter the word 'Catfight!'

Based on the above, I believe I would make a compelling candidate for the position of Women's Forum Moderator. If I may be of service, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

I second your suicidal volunteerism, and in that same spirit, will assist by occasionally uttering certain words on your behalf when the situation allows, such as: catfight, pms, mood swings, passive aggressive, girly, manly, pink, testosterone poisoning, valium, prozac and other such motivational words.

M

deaddoll
8th March 2006, 18:03
If you need a spare I will try,have never done before,so dont really know how it goes about,but I love a challenge ..... good idea

Sapporo Ichiban
8th March 2006, 18:37
To J. Svinth:

Just to clarify and be safe, I wasn't really volunteering. While I would be glad to help E-Budo, I'm not qualified to be a Moderator. And certainly not a Women's Forum moderator. Truth is, I can barely keep out of trouble at home.

So Jax is up. Maybe you might want to also ask Ellis Amdur? I just finished reading 'Dueling with O-sensei.' [When I ordered the book, I thought 'O-sensei' = 'Oprah' (she's the only o-sensei I know). Decided to read the book anyway since I can't return it.] Based on his writings, Mr. Amdur's got his head screwed on right re women. Plus he's got that fancy psych degree from Yale . . .

Although, the more I think about it, maybe a woman would be best, no?

Sapporo Ichiban
8th March 2006, 18:58
M-Lo:

Women aren't exempt from the draft, are they?

Richard.

deaddoll
8th March 2006, 19:05
have you got a bit of shall I shant I going on here :rolleyes: or is it Multi personality :p

Margaret Lo
8th March 2006, 19:50
M-Lo:

Women aren't exempt from the draft, are they?

Richard.

Still exempt I believe.

EDGordon
8th March 2006, 20:07
To J. Svinth:

Just to clarify and be safe, I wasn't really volunteering. While I would be glad to help E-Budo, I'm not qualified to be a Moderator. And certainly not a Women's Forum moderator. Truth is, I can barely keep out of trouble at home.

Just as E-Budo is not only for men, I, myself, do not see a need for a forum only for women.

That said, I have been contemplating my "budobabe.com" web site, what I want to do with it and how I want to do it (and when the heck I will have time!). However, part of my goal with this site is to help men out with Mysterious Women's Issues such as:

Why Black Gi Pants Should be OK Sometimes
Why Front Breakfalls Suck
Stop Crushing My Arm and Let Me Try This
Stop Apologizing and Throw Me (for both genders)
Adjusting For Mass (a training partner's guide)



So Jax is up. Maybe you might want to also ask Ellis Amdur?


Amdur Sensei was very supportive to me when I was writing my paper "Putting Up with Men" for the Guelph Sword School, and very tough.

If he were to moderate a forum, a lot of heads would get knocked, both genders, and I'm not sure it would be popular.
I'm ok with that, for the record. However, if any forum is to be women only, it should stick to that, and a female should come forward.
What you said.

I'm sorry, it will not be me. My mission is more on the lines of outreach, to all, rather than isolation. I would, however, participate and support.



I just finished reading 'Dueling with O-sensei.' [When I ordered the book, I thought 'O-sensei' = 'Oprah' (she's the only o-sensei I know). Decided to read the book anyway since I can't return it.] Based on his writings, Mr. Amdur's got his head screwed on right re women. Plus he's got that fancy psych degree from Yale . . .

Oprah's got a financial shodan from somewhere.. I bought her mag the other day for cardio reading.
Amdur S. went to Yale? OMG. I had no idea.

I thought he just wrote cool books that made me go "woah.. dam^.. yeah." I spent about 10 years in various forms of aikido, and a short time in Yanagi-ryu before I learned that women were not exactly welcome at their Hombu dojo. I know there are exceptions, but they aren't exactly taken seriously. Perhaps it has changed. Perhaps subsequent generations will evolve this beautiful art, not to dilute it for lesser applicants, but to increase its breadth and depth.

So here's the thing. Some women have issues, some men have issues training with women. Some people have no issues whatsoever with anyone.

What's the diff?

-Emily

P Goldsbury
8th March 2006, 23:59
have you got a bit of shall I shant I going on here :rolleyes: or is it Multi personality :p

Will you please sign your posts with your full name. 'Jax' is not sufficient. As I suggested before in an earlier post (See Page 1), the best way to do this is by adding your name to your signature. If posters do not keep this rule, they are banned from E-Budo.

Sorry to be persistent about this, but this is an important rule of this forum.

Best wishes,

nicojo
9th March 2006, 00:51
Since there remains a split in modern western academic feminism about whether essential differences exist between men and women, I wouldn't expect mere e-budoka to achieve a consensus about whether a "women's" forum is necessary. If you think that statement denigrates mere e-budoka and raises academics, you can't hear my tone and here is a smilie for you: :)

But I think it is interesting that one single thread seems to have more women responding to it than most other threads or even fora in e-budo. Something happened. Nice to have been a manly contributor. Thanks,

EDGordon
9th March 2006, 21:19
Will you please sign your posts with your full name. 'Jax' is not sufficient. As I suggested before in an earlier post (See Page 1), the best way to do this is by adding your name to your signature. If posters do not keep this rule, they are banned from E-Budo.

Sorry to be persistent about this, but this is an important rule of this forum.


It seems that people who put their entire names in their "handles" can just post part of a name and be "honest".
Even if they use a nickname. M-Lo, or nicojo, for instance. I normally use Edge, or MLE, but for this forum I bother with typing the whole thing.

Is there some kind of FAQ where those of us who "didn't get the memo" can go to see all the ways this rule can work?

I got a couple of notes like this until an Alert Reader pointed out that my first name, Emily, along with my handle EDgordon, is sufficient to cover my entire name. If you told people exactly how they could succeed, instead of just telling them they were doing it wrong, you might meet with more success in general.

I'd hate to lose someone who started a good thread just because of some quatsch about their handle.

Perhaps an electronic signature is in order? I personally prefer to just give my first name, as an informal 21st century American type presumably among friends.

"Fluffy Bunny From Hell"
edge/MLE
Emily D Gordon
www.katsujin.com
www.the-dojo.com
tex-pat.blogspot.com
kitchensinkphonenumberandmailbox
werzthedoggonesigoptionanyway...

P Goldsbury
10th March 2006, 01:01
It seems that people who put their entire names in their "handles" can just post part of a name and be "honest".
Even if they use a nickname. M-Lo, or nicojo, for instance. I normally use Edge, or MLE, but for this forum I bother with typing the whole thing.

Is there some kind of FAQ where those of us who "didn't get the memo" can go to see all the ways this rule can work?

I got a couple of notes like this until an Alert Reader pointed out that my first name, Emily, along with my handle EDgordon, is sufficient to cover my entire name. If you told people exactly how they could succeed, instead of just telling them they were doing it wrong, you might meet with more success in general.

I'd hate to lose someone who started a good thread just because of some quatsch about their handle.

Perhaps an electronic signature is in order? I personally prefer to just give my first name, as an informal 21st century American type presumably among friends.

"Fluffy Bunny From Hell"
edge/MLE
Emily D Gordon
www.katsujin.com
www.the-dojo.com
tex-pat.blogspot.com
kitchensinkphonenumberandmailbox
werzthedoggonesigoptionanyway...

I think John Lindsey's idea of a full name is e.g. Peter Goldsbury or P Goldsbury (like you have in your user name), but not Peter or Peter G. So with a user name that is not the poster's full name, like deaddoll, then it is necessary to put the full name in the signature (which is easy) or sign every post with the full name (which is more tiresome, in my opinion). But it is John's forum and these are the rules.

At present, posters who offend against this rule receive up to three warnings, either from alert posters or moderators. After the third warning, moderators will ban the user (the ban remaining for as long as the admin think appropriate).

I think one reason for the name rule is the ease of checking the name with the IP address.

Best wishes,

PS. One thing that I should add is that I think my two posts to deaddoll were quite clear. My full name does not mean just Peter.

PS 2. Another thing I should add is that I, too, do not want to ban any users from this thread. But I think the rules are simple, as I have explained them, and relatively easy to keep.

PAG

deaddoll
11th March 2006, 11:55
I'd hate to lose someone who started a good thread just because of some quatsch about their handle.

Perhaps an electronic signature is in order? I personally prefer to just give my first name, as an informal 21st century American type presumably among friends.
.
thank you fro being in My corner .. :) I did on the first post ask add Jax English,but then noted others hate just first names ...but not realising there names were in there handle :) oh well I have adjusted now.... maybe now this natural rebel (even without realising it !!) woman will behave !!!!!!! ..........

bhoutros
17th March 2006, 01:37
I don't think that there needs to be a women's only forum. I think that there aren't always alot of threads that are specifically of interest to women. This just happened to be be dedicated to The Ladies.

EDGordon
18th March 2006, 18:16
and while groin kicks :::hurt:::, they are not usually defining moments in our lives...
mew

Ex once fell, with one bony knee and full body weight (small guy, fortunately) on my pubic symphysis (it's an anatomical term for the bone that shields your bladder) it was exceedingly painful for two weeks.

I also have an old groin tear that still keeps me from straightening up after bending over, from time to time.

But then I just found out I have hip dysplasia. Hey, I never wanted to be a show dog anyway.

-Emily
(catching up)

EDGordon
18th March 2006, 18:35
I don't think that there needs to be a women's only forum. I think that there aren't always alot of threads that are specifically of interest to women. This just happened to be be dedicated to The Ladies.

In real life, we have to deal with everyone.
I see no reason to change things anywhere, as much as I might like to sometimes.

-Emily
(knows who she is this time ;) )

deaddoll
19th March 2006, 18:28
I think if people want a female forum that is ok,but I like the company of boys even if they are silly sometimes. good to have a thread where we can have girly topics and the boys can join in to.

Hanna B
4th May 2006, 22:42
I see the point of a women's forum. Some women are not interested, fine they can ignore it - no problem whatsoever. I am not sure a women's forum on e-budo would work so well though. I have seen women's forum on other martial arts web boards invaded by men, until the forum does not fill a purpose at all. A rule that men are not allowed to post in it would hardly work, either. If there are enough women who want it and have an idea how it should work, then I am all for it. Otherwise not.

EDGordon
7th May 2006, 20:26
I think if people want a female forum that is ok,but I like the company of boys even if they are silly sometimes. good to have a thread where we can have girly topics and the boys can join in to.

In jujutsu, it's very hard to keep nail colour on my toenails. I'm not keen on having my fingernails, since I bend them backwards on gi lapels if they are over a centimeter and I'm a bodyworker so nails are right out in any case.

Toenails, on the other hand, are kind of the last bastion of grrliness for me. I use a Teflon nail protector over my colourful glitter nail polish, and it keeps things fresher for maybe a week or so, depending on the mats I'm on.

That tip given, what knot in the belt have ya'll been using? I'm unable to keep a knot through a class.

Any advice? I'm one of them zaftig shiksas, with an actual WAIST and stuff.
I thought about the extra under the dogi, but I'd look like the Michelin frau.

Additionally, for me, it's more to come unwound and make my dojomates laugh and wind me up again...

MLE

laeticia
8th May 2006, 09:32
That tip given, what knot in the belt have ya'll been using? I'm unable to keep a knot through a class.

Any advice? I'm one of them zaftig shiksas, with an actual WAIST and stuff.
I thought about the extra under the dogi, but I'd look like the Michelin frau.

Additionally, for me, it's more to come unwound and make my dojomates laugh and wind me up again...


Do you tie the obi on your waist or hips?

At the beginning I tried to tie mine on the hips as instructed, but at least in iai it just doesn't work if your hips are wider than your waist (which is common with most of the ladies I know...), and happen to lack the (iai-)belly that keeps the obi on place for most men. Tying the obi on the waist makes drawing a bit harder, but it's really the only solution that works for me.

When doing kenjutsu I try from time to time to tie my obi lower, but even without the constant drawing which is the main problem with iai the belt rises all the time, needs to be put back in place, rises again, gets shabby... In short, I end up tying it at waist level once more. The belt itself same as with everyone else.

Cheers,

Hanna B
8th May 2006, 09:39
At the beginning I tried to tie mine on the hips as instructed, but at least in iai it just doesn't work if your hips are wider than your waist (which is common with most of the ladies I know...), and happen to lack the (iai-)belly that keeps the obi on place for most men. Tying the obi on the waist makes drawing a bit harder, but it's really the only solution that works for me.
Sounds like a huge handicap in iaido. I heard of an iaido woman who, before sho put her dogi on, took a piece of cloth and wrapped around her waist to make it "disappear", so the belt would not slide up to her waist.

harry jones
22nd May 2006, 16:54
This is a much discussed problem in our changing room. (I am lucky in that we have equal numbers of men and women in our dojo.

I did experiment with tying my obi hipster style, but thankfully I did it in the privacy of my own living room as the resulting effect was ridiculous looking in the extreem (an alien creature with a torso longer than her legs) I also couldn't fit my sword in place as it wedged up against my rather pointy hip bone

The main problem I find (well used to find) was the bunching up of many folds of material in the waist area which made moving my saya very dificult.

I now use a slightly elasticated obi which helps with the saya movement problem (as do the rest of the women in our dojo)

I still haven't found an answer to the saya popping up a wedging its self under my boobs though,

Harry Jones

Chris Brown
22nd May 2006, 18:35
Elasticized sageo?

harry jones
23rd May 2006, 14:54
mmmmm or perhaps some type of spring loaded fishing reel mechanism

EDGordon
8th July 2006, 18:27
I did experiment with tying my obi hipster style, but thankfully I did it in the privacy of my own living room as the resulting effect was ridiculous looking in the extreem (an alien creature with a torso longer than her legs) I also couldn't fit my sword in place as it wedged up against my rather pointy hip bone

Like dressing up in Japanese cowboy costume isn't funny enough? ;-D Sure I got away with leaving the dojo in street shirt, hakama and cowboy boots in Texas, but elsewhere it might cause the odd glance.

Proportions being individual, I can tie the obi (wide navy silk embroidered number a friend picked up for me in Japan) around my, er, somewhat upholstered hip bones, and not look any funnier than usual, but I have to stuff it back down frequently.
The problem is less on "skinny days". Always working on having more of those.



The main problem I find (well used to find) was the bunching up of many folds of material in the waist area which made moving my saya very dificult.

I now use a slightly elasticated obi which helps with the saya movement problem (as do the rest of the women in our dojo)

Where did you find that lovely item?

I may eventually try one of the BuJin keikogi for women.. Hiroshi Ikeda helped me with a hakama issue while I was visiting aikido friends in Aspen, and he really gets that (aikido) aspect of budo "fashion".



I still haven't found an answer to the saya popping up a wedging its self under my boobs though,
Harry Jones

The "girls" can get in the way a bit. As a person who spends pretty much equal time getting mashed and playing with sticks/sharps, I have already invested in some industrial strength longline sports bras which keep things fairly streamlined.
They're not much, (especially for my overall mass) just enough to get in the way. Very Bad doing certain pins where your partner can kneel on whatever's sticking out by your armpit (6th control).

Moving around gets things all out of place, though, which results in vaguely obscene mumbling and tugging and wadding and stuffing.

I've tried a tshirt and gi pants with an obi, though, and talk about looking SILLY!

While I'm wishing for comfortable budo practice gear, I'll throw another penny in the well for comfortable-and-sexy shoes.

Emily D-G

mews
9th July 2006, 23:35
While I'm wishing for comfortable budo practice gear, I'll throw another penny in the well for comfortable-and-sexy shoes.

Emily D-G


jeez, why not add world peace to the list, too?!?

mew

harry jones
10th July 2006, 11:05
A friend bought the elasticated Obi for me in Japan I'll find out if there is anywhere on line you can get them from.

Sooo a couple of practices ago I forgot my obi and had to practice without. What a revelation! the sword just sat perfectly (and securely) on my hip bone at the right angle and everything. I could also for the first time in 10 years do saya biki (sp?) with the ease of the men in my dojo. Now I have been told that I have to wear an obi but I was wondering if the obi has to be a specific width. I practice MSR Iaido.

Yours in search of Info.

Harry Jones

Woody
13th July 2006, 14:48
Our dojo in Okinawa had quite a few women in it.
I always appreciated women in the dojo.
They provide a much needed perspective.
A good balance, so to speak.
They also seemed to not have the tendency to "muscle" through techniques like men do.

EDGordon
14th July 2006, 19:44
Our dojo in Okinawa had quite a few women in it.
I always appreciated women in the dojo.
They provide a much needed perspective.
A good balance, so to speak.
They also seemed to not have the tendency to "muscle" through techniques like men do.

Yeah, but those of us with a "macha" streak take time to come out of it. In my case, it took a couple of fairly serious injuries from "being an idiot".

That pain and limitation never leaves your mind, once you have incurred it.
I showed up at class with a separated shoulder, trying to practice "watching training" (mitori geiko?) and was dragged away by friends concerned about my mental health. Get a life, they said. One a female former Marine, the other my original martial arts mentor, now a cop in Austin.

My next injury, a terrible medial ankle sprain, I crawled around my garden, and had a fabulous garden that year.

I still deal with these injuries, a debt paid to my "strong as any man" complex.

It's part of the reason I dedicated myself to bodywork and the repair and maintenance of human potiential.

I know that people are going to be stupid, and I want to give them a second chance. I had many. I need to pay it forward.

-Emily D-G

Woody
20th July 2006, 19:26
I know that people are going to be stupid, and I want to give them a second chance. I had many. I need to pay it forward.
thanks for being patient with us. :cool:

DodieSable
26th July 2006, 11:38
Having seen the title ,I thought it would be nice to hear from women who have had Martial arts issues and how they have dealt with them .Jax

I've been reading the forums and this one strikes me because over the years women come and go in our Dojo and I am the only one that is consistantly there. I'd like to encourage more women to train and would love to hear anyone's thoughts on how to do that! They come, they stay a year and they leave.

Dodie Sable

joe yang
26th July 2006, 20:42
Sometimes I think it is the little things. Women are as capable as men, at least in the civilian environment. I spent a lot of years in law enforcement, second generation. Things changed for the better when women started joining the force, once we started to listen to women. We became more responsive to women and children.

I taught defensive tactics and trained and led shift response teams in corrections for a lot of years. I never had more or less trouble with women than with men. And there were a lot of scenarios that went much better for the presence of women. The problem is getting women into and through training. My wife and daughter have trained along with me over the years. They have me convinced it is the little things. Women want to change and shower in private. Give it to them. They want to deal with blood, sweat, pain and tears in their own way. Let them. I think if we tried to respect what women want and adjust for it, we might find more room for women in the martial arts. I have found women every bit as tough and capable.

If you can't respect women, you have no business marrying, raising girls and what will you tell your mom?

Kinume
27th July 2006, 07:34
I've been reading the forums and this one strikes me because over the years women come and go in our Dojo and I am the only one that is consistantly there. I'd like to encourage more women to train and would love to hear anyone's thoughts on how to do that! They come, they stay a year and they leave.

Dodie Sable

I'm not certain there's a best way to keep women in the dojo generally.

Personally, over 15 years, I've been to a few, and the ones that I've actually stuck with over time (until they've closed or I've moved elsewhere) are the ones that actually EXPLAIN what it is they are teaching.

In words. While showing the technique as well of course.

The most irksome I've come across are those instructors who will demonstrate a technique, through out some random Japanese words, and then expect the student (me) to start doing <technique of choice here>.

Also, the ones that I've been particularly fond of are those who will show me a way to adjust a technique to compensate for size differences. For example, being 5ft 2in, I can't do an 'overwhelming' technique in Taijutsu to a 6ft 4in man. Uh uh, not going to work.

I think you all have to just be patient though when it comes to getting more women in the dojo. We are still in that stage of changing the way we bring up girls to become women. From the sweet, stay at home mom types, into something a lot more active. Women may be in the workplace but honestly, the method of raising them hasn't changed to much to compensate. A lot of parents still expect their girls to be sweet and gentle and 'girly' and do 'girly' things. If more girls are brought up to be independent and less prone to victimhood, the # of women in dojo's should steadily increase.

I'd say wait another 30 years..
_________
Luva der Golder

EDGordon
3rd August 2006, 21:23
Sometimes I think it is the little things. Women are as capable as men, at least in the civilian environment.

I've met some female soldiers (and civilians) who would give any comer pause.
There was the provost marshall Lt Col who loved Mozart and got badly injured pulling injured troops out of a helicopter. It ruined her knees, but she remained indomitable.


I spent a lot of years in law enforcement, second generation. Things changed for the better when women started joining the force, once we started to listen to women. We became more responsive to women and children.

I'd like to know how children came into the equation? Want to hear the story.
As a woman not interested in children, sometimes these things escape me.
Some people are just great with kids. I am not ordinarily one of them, but I have my "specials" or rather, they have me. ;-)


I taught defensive tactics and trained and led shift response teams in corrections for a lot of years. I never had more or less trouble with women than with men. And there were a lot of scenarios that went much better for the presence of women. The problem is getting women into and through training. My wife and daughter have trained along with me over the years. They have me convinced it is the little things. Women want to change and shower in private. Give it to them. They want to deal with blood, sweat, pain and tears in their own way. Let them. I think if we tried to respect what women want and adjust for it, we might find more room for women in the martial arts. I have found women every bit as tough and capable.

Me, I miss chatting with my mates, alone in the "gals" changing room.
Yes, the alternative might be more awkward. In many small dojo I have trained in, though, we pick a corner, face away, change, and chat.

I have always found teachers who have been involved in "practical" practice to be far more accepting of darn near everything.


If you can't respect women, you have no business marrying, raising girls and what will you tell your mom?

Preach, brother, preach.

I watched a teenage girl chase a teenage boy all over the room in a boxing class the other day. That was fun!

I aim to let myself be surprised, on a daily basis. By me, by the world, by other humans, by anything.

Emily D-G

NLMontana
16th August 2006, 01:34
"Some people live their lives in total amazement."

-- Tom Hanks (Joe Versus the Volcano)

I think the problem is women are two worried about being equal, and will not put themselves in situations where they will not be considered an equal at the outset (i.e., in a room full of trained martial artists). If they would simply be secure enough to accept their inherent equality, then they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to prove just how equal they really are.

Getting women in the dojo, and keeping them there, will only happen when the women just know they belong there. It is a process, an evolution, and it is continuing. Have patience. It will happen.

And advertise "Women Welcome!"

Thank you.

Tim Mailloux
16th August 2006, 22:02
I think the problem is women are two worried about being equal, and will not put themselves in situations where they will not be considered an equal at the outset (i.e., in a room full of trained martial artists). If they would simply be secure enough to accept their inherent equality, then they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to prove just how equal they really are.

Getting women in the dojo, and keeping them there, will only happen when the women just know they belong there. It is a process, an evolution, and it is continuing. Have patience. It will happen.

And advertise "Women Welcome!"

Thank you.

I study aikido and iaido with a female instructor. She is a 6th dan in both arts, and trained as an unchideshi in both arts in Japan. You would think that she would have lots of female students, but she only has a couple. The odd thing is that she has no problem getting male students, but females dont want to train with her. On several occassion we have had females come in to watch class to never be heard from again. A couple of months later we will see that person at a seminar and find out she is training with a local male aikido teacher. And ALL the other aikido teachers in my area were at one time a student of my teacher. Sensei has said this has been going on as long as she has been teaching.

EDGordon
19th August 2006, 20:25
"Some people live their lives in total amazement."
Getting women in the dojo, and keeping them there, will only happen when the women just know they belong there. It is a process, an evolution, and it is continuing. Have patience. It will happen.

It's like throwing your money at the wall. You get to keep what sticks.
As with all students. Of any gender.



And advertise "Women Welcome!"
Thank you.

Personally, I might be a teeny weeny bit insulted by any necessity of including that phrase. The kind of women you would get by posting that, might not be the kind who would be functional in the martial arts.
I could be and would be glad to be, wrong.

There is, and should be, no difference.
Sure, say it. It's good.
But you shouldn't have to.
It's more a comment on current societal idiocy than on budo.

Opening the can of worms,
Emily D-G

(got two new women Soldier beginners last Wed, and they were totally psyched when I showed them the tessen and talked about iai, naginata and batto practice)

Emily D-G
www.the-dojo.com

EDGordon
20th August 2006, 10:02
I see so many women give themselves up totally to the lives going on around them, to the extent that they have no lives of their own.

Army wives seem to thrive on it, and I have no idea how they do it. It drives me nuts. I am NOT an army wife, by the way, my husband is a civilian and I just don't fit in with that lifestyle, I'm too into my own interests and my job.

In my own life, I have a generous and interactive partner, no kids, and time to do what I want.

My heart just aches seeing people who give their selves up and never discover their potential. Not that I think women shouldn't have kids etc. I just decided it didn't fit in my life.

In addition, with the other post I made where I talked about the Women Welcome sign, I tend to think that if that's needed, there's something wrong.

It's perhaps like putting a "Men Welcome" sign up at a parenting class.

"Women Encouraged to Attend" might work, but it might get you trouble as well.

People might just think the guys need a date ;-) .
*being funny*

ED Gordon

IronMan
27th August 2006, 05:20
I think the problem is women are two worried about being equal, and will not put themselves in situations where they will not be considered an equal at the outset (i.e., in a room full of trained martial artists). If they would simply be secure enough to accept their inherent equality, then they wouldn't be wasting their time trying to prove just how equal they really are.

I have been trying to teach practical combat martial arts for the last few months and finally I had a three young women come to one of the sessions I was leading.

When we started sparring I asked them what they were trained in and the list that they gave was pretty impressive, but not nearly as impressive as how they beat their male sparring partners.

I think your right in saying that there is some fear to overcome before equality is really recognized, but I think that before that happens there will need to be some superiority shown.

Encouragement is all well and good, but giving women an icon who is more than just equal to her male competitors will really get people to recognize that women are just as capable as men in the martial arts.

EDGordon
28th August 2006, 21:42
When we started sparring I asked them what they were trained in and the list that they gave was pretty impressive, but not nearly as impressive as how they beat their male sparring partners.

I think your right in saying that there is some fear to overcome before equality is really recognized, but I think that before that happens there will need to be some superiority shown.


I think everyone has to overcome some fear in any combat or even contact training.



Encouragement is all well and good, but giving women an icon who is more than just equal to her male competitors will really get people to recognize that women are just as capable as men in the martial arts.

So. Who would that icon be?
Not someone imaginary or "magically enhanced" no Xenas or Buffies please.
Who is our female Bruce Lee?

Michelle Yeo?
Cagney and Lacey?

I was a big fan of Electra Assassin, but she's not exactly realistic...

ED Gordon

Michael Pitaro
28th August 2006, 22:10
My vote for impressively iconic mainstream martial arts female is currently going to Casey Marks. I think Cynthia Rothrock is more famous but Casey seems more skilled. Would either one work?

Joseph Svinth
29th August 2006, 03:26
She is a television heroine, but I'd vote for Emma Peel (or at least Diana Riggs' stunt double, who was a Budokwai yudansha).

As for the woman who put female athleticism all over the mid-20th century sports pages, that's easy -- Babe Didrickson Zaharias. Her motto? Loosen your girdle, and let fly.

ssanutokh
29th January 2009, 15:07
Im not a woman (i think) but we are having problems getting women into the dojo. They dont seem to want to train. It makes the atmosphere in the dojo too male.

Too male for what?

EDIT: Oop - looks like this question was answered, and I posted before reading. My bad.

ssanutokh
29th January 2009, 16:05
At the end of one class, we all paired off for sparring. When she stepped in front of me, I could tell she was a bit apprehensive about squaring off against me. That in mind, I let her come to me. My instructor just wanted her to get used to actually hitting someone and making contact with another person. So she threw a few punches and started with a few kicks. At one point, she threw a kick and I raised my leg to block like I pretty much always do. She made shin to shin contact, when down and had to be carried off of the mat...

She never returned to class and I am told by my instructor (a female) that this person felt I used excessive force...

This is not necessarily strictly a women's issue. When I was first getting involved with the Bujinkan, a long-time friend of mine became curious a few months in and decided to attend a few classes himself to see what I was so excited about. During his third class, we had a visiting instructor come in and show us a few things.

My buddy stands about 6 feet even and is one of those lucky folks who's naturally muscular. Big fellow and moves like a tank. The visiting instructor asked him if he could borrow him for a demonstration, and up he went. The technique involved blocking a thrown punch, stepping on his foot, smashing him in the throat with the edge of his palm, and then throwing him full onto his hindquarters. From there he moved into a submission hold involving the wrist, etc...

Although it looked to me and the other folk watching like he'd gone down pretty easy, this was apparently more than my bud had signed on for - he never returned to class and always referred to them thereafter as 'those psychotic bastards'.

I think the idea that everyone who steps onto the mat has a decent idea of what's in store for them is misleading - that's not always the case, regardless of gender.

Samurai Chrome
22nd November 2015, 12:18
I am struggling keeping our female students. Having read some out the post here, are there any sure fire way to attack and keep female students?

donnamartin
2nd April 2016, 08:27
Just about any form of exercise will help teach you about all the “limits” that you can overcome, but there’s something about delivering a solid kick or punch that really makes you realize that you can do some serious damage if you need to. In a world where women are unfortunately still treated like the weaker , it’s awesome to know that you can be just as tough than your male… and it’s even more awesome to prove it.

cxt
2nd April 2016, 16:34
Well said.

Cady Goldfield
2nd April 2016, 17:47
I think of it this way: Can a 250-lb man be brought down with a 1-lb ball thrown at 60 mph? 35 mph? 20 mph?
Then why not with kicks, strikes and punches at an accelerated velocity from a 120-lb woman who is using a unified/connected body?

The thing is, many folks assume that a woman can't and won't act with aggression when she is attacked. It's a matter of conditioning and training. More than just learning martial technique, women need to be shown how to develop the right mindset for defending themselves, and this has to be done in a methodical and incremental way, especially when working with women and girls who have low levels of androgens/testosterone and/or have been conditioned to be non-aggressive and non-assertive from earliest childhood.

scottcrowan
29th April 2016, 07:29
According to me Every woman has full right to learn Martial arts. and being a women I will definitely support all the women, those who are really taking efforts to learn Martial arts.

CEB
3rd May 2016, 22:27
I am struggling keeping our female students. Having read some out the post here, are there any sure fire way to attack and keep female students?

I don't know. We have better luck with keeping women students than males these days. Many of the students were mothers who brought in their children for the kids class we have before the adult class. They saw the classes and were interested. The majority of belts belts awarded since 2010 have been women. Women seem to make better students. They actually listen. I hear the same thing from firearms instructors.

In several cases the kids quit but Mom kept working out.

Maro
11th May 2016, 08:29
I don't know. We have better luck with keeping women students than males these days. .

Same here - I think once they are hooked, women make outstanding students.

One of mine has recently returned after her second maternity leave!

HamsterDude
25th November 2016, 15:52
Same here - I think once they are hooked, women make outstanding students.

One of mine has recently returned after her second maternity leave!

!
that is really great