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Prince Loeffler
18th February 2006, 06:12
Some says CHINA, Others says OKINAWA, while some says Japan ! So what's the answer ?

Hattori
18th February 2006, 08:11
I once read (I forget where) that there is an Indian sandstone carving (In Delhi or somewhere like that) showing "nunchaku" (rice flail) being used in defence. Perhaps it was an Indian tool?

On a side note, I have seen some rather good pics in a national Geographic of the early Egyptions using tonfa (tuifa) in single man combat along with what appears to be sai.

Prince Loeffler
18th February 2006, 08:23
I once read (I forget where) that there is an Indian sandstone carving (In Delhi or somewhere like that) showing "nunchaku" (rice flail) being used in defence. Perhaps it was an Indian tool?

On a side note, I have seen some rather good pics in a national Geographic of the early Egyptions using tonfa (tuifa) in single man combat along with what appears to be sai.


Do you remember the year ? My dad collected these magazine for the last 10 years, maybe I could look for it.

Hattori
18th February 2006, 09:06
I'll see if I still have it.

Blackwood
18th February 2006, 12:50
I'll say it was part of a horse bridle and could be found in all of the countries. As to who was the first to swing it at an opponent, I won't venture a guess.

Prince Loeffler
18th February 2006, 18:55
I'll see if I still have it.


Thanks ! I really appreciate this Mr. Kemlo

Prince Loeffler
18th February 2006, 19:00
As to who was the first to swing it at an opponent, I won't venture a guess.

This is part of the question the killing my brain cell :) Somehwere down in history someone must have thought.....Hmmmm

MikeWilliams
19th February 2006, 00:00
You know, parallel development is entirely possible.

Medieval European peasant soldiers used (long) flails in combat too.

Prince Loeffler
19th February 2006, 18:14
You know, parallel development is entirely possible.

Medieval European peasant soldiers used (long) flails in combat too.

if That's true, How did the Okinawan get all the credit ?

Hattori
20th February 2006, 05:33
I'll keep digging for that National Geographic, but it may have been thrown out. Sorry.

Prince Loeffler
20th February 2006, 05:54
I'll keep digging for that National Geographic, but it may have been thrown out. Sorry.


That's cool Mr. Kemplo, Maybe I'll visit my folks tomorrows and spend some time reading. Do you remember the cover ?

Prince Loeffler
20th February 2006, 21:19
I really want to thank those that posted on the Poll. So far we have Okinawa as the sourced of Nunchaku. Can any of the pollster post as to where the source came from ? Thanks ! I think this makes a great historical thread.

Sidarta
22nd February 2006, 02:25
As mentioned above, I always thought a simple weapon in the shape of a nunchaku could have appeared in differet cultures in different times and independently from one another.

Anyway, does nunchaku appear in any originally mainland Japanese martial art?

Jock Armstrong
22nd February 2006, 03:39
Medieval Hungarian [the Taborite] soldiers used a kind of threshing flail similar to the Korean and Okinawan/Japanese one- it had a long shaft [about 5 feet] and a short nunchaku sized one on the end. The nunchaku on the other hand is a weapon derived from an agricultural tool, in this case a horsehair bit and bridle. The sai would seem to be in a similar situation. They are based on something, opinions differ as to what, however they are not themselves tools but weapons. A bo on the other hand is a stick/tool used as a weapon. The thing to remember about European medieval weapons is that their methods of use were generally forgotten after they were superseded by effective firearms. For a while, as firearms were still time consuming to reload, they co-existed with the older weapons. The Taborites were renowned not only for their close in fighting ferocity but their wagon laagers which were defended by well organised teams of hand gunners. In Japan and Okinawa this was not the case [the ruling class in Japan actually legislating to ensure the survival of classical weaponry by ruling that no new firearms were introduced- all the late sengoku jidai battles featured arquebusiers prominently; they were the single most effective weapons on the battlefield- they had the same distaste as the medieval knight for a weapon which gave poorly armoured and armed peasants a fighting chance. There was a Papal edict outlawing the use of the crossbow against fellow Christians, due no doubt to pressure from outraged aristocracy, since it gave the plebians an armour piercing chance against the knightly class! ]. No doubt there was some cross fertilisation between traders learning tech and teaching them on their return home. The classic modern example of that is Bruce Lee [Chinese] being taught nunchaku by a Dan Inosanto [Filipino] who had learned an Okinawan derived art [kempo].

Prince Loeffler
22nd February 2006, 05:41
Medieval Hungarian [the Taborite] soldiers used a kind of threshing flail similar to the Korean and Okinawan/Japanese one- it had a long shaft [about 5 feet] and a short nunchaku sized one on the end. The nunchaku on the other hand is a weapon derived from an agricultural tool, in this case a horsehair bit and bridle. The sai would seem to be in a similar situation. They are based on something, opinions differ as to what, however they are not themselves tools but weapons. A bo on the other hand is a stick/tool used as a weapon. The thing to remember about European medieval weapons is that their methods of use were generally forgotten after they were superseded by effective firearms. For a while, as firearms were still time consuming to reload, they co-existed with the older weapons. The Taborites were renowned not only for their close in fighting ferocity but their wagon laagers which were defended by well organised teams of hand gunners. In Japan and Okinawa this was not the case [the ruling class in Japan actually legislating to ensure the survival of classical weaponry by ruling that no new firearms were introduced- all the late sengoku jidai battles featured arquebusiers prominently; they were the single most effective weapons on the battlefield- they had the same distaste as the medieval knight for a weapon which gave poorly armoured and armed peasants a fighting chance. There was a Papal edict outlawing the use of the crossbow against fellow Christians, due no doubt to pressure from outraged aristocracy, since it gave the plebians an armour piercing chance against the knightly class! ]. No doubt there was some cross fertilisation between traders learning tech and teaching them on their return home. The classic modern example of that is Bruce Lee [Chinese] being taught nunchaku by a Dan Inosanto [Filipino] who had learned an Okinawan derived art [kempo].


Interesting historical input Mr. Armstrong ! Somehow I could not find any weapons on the net. if any happens to come across one please post.

Jock Armstrong
22nd February 2006, 06:49
Boobed again- the Taborites were Czech, not Hungarian. If you are interested Prince, punch Jan Zizka into your google search. You'll get a lot of hits come up. Start with the "readers companion to mil history". There are a shedload of hits for Zizka, the taborite general.

Prince Loeffler
22nd February 2006, 07:14
Boobed again- the Taborites were Czech, not Hungarian. If you are interested Prince, punch Jan Zizka into your google search. You'll get a lot of hits come up. Start with the "readers companion to mil history". There are a shedload of hits for Zizka, the taborite general.


Thanks Mr. Armstrong for the info. I really want to know a lot more than you could imagine on the origin of the flail.

Prince Loeffler
22nd February 2006, 07:20
While googling I came across these:

One is a horse flail of unknown origin and the other is an egyptian flail.

Jock Armstrong
22nd February 2006, 12:31
The top one is, I believe, an Okinawan horsehair bit. [cringes into corner to avoid flogging...]

Prince Loeffler
22nd February 2006, 12:38
The top one is, I believe, an Okinawan horsehair bit. [cringes into corner to avoid flogging...]

Mr Armstrong... :) :)

Prince Loeffler
22nd February 2006, 20:24
I seached thru the WORLD wide web in hope to get the answer. I just reliazed how futile as most websites do not have definitive and realiable sources.

Then it hits me ! I may have asked the wrong question. So I'll back up a little bit and asked: What was the first earliest known records of ( Insert country of origin) warriors that used the flail ( Nunchaku) as primary weapon in battle and in training ?

Mr. Kemlo and Mr. Armstrong has provided me a great lead, but still cannot find the difinite source. I'll keep trying. No I am not becoming obsesive with this little piece. Its like trying to find the title of the song you like but don't know where or who recorded it.

ScottUK
22nd February 2006, 22:37
I say China ('cos this website does...):

http://www.rkagb.com/weapons/_nunchaku.htm

Prince Loeffler
23rd February 2006, 01:43
I say China ('cos this website does...):

http://www.rkagb.com/weapons/_nunchaku.htm


well we know the Chinese started a lot of stuff.... :) But seriously, is there a records that indicated the emergence of the flail as batlle weapons.

TimJurgens
27th February 2006, 14:58
First there is not much rice grown in Okinawa. The local crop is Uji in the local language, Satokibi in Japanese, and Sugar Cane in English. That combined with sweet potatoes, or Beniimo, mangos, goya, and some cirtus fruits cover most of the crops. Rice is less significant in the local cooking than it is in mainland. That means that a "rice flail" is most likely not an origin to the nunchaku.

In fact I have never seen rice flailed anywhere but then I am not a rice farmer.

As for weapons many people presume that all of the tools came to be weaponized in Okinawa. The Sai was not. It came from China as a weapon or so I have been told by my teachers. The nunchaku however at least seems to have been turned into a weapon independently in Okinawa. That of course does not mean it did so first or only in Okinawa. Here is some info on weapons that we have posted on our site. http://ryukyu-kobudo.com/buki/buki.htm

JasonW
28th February 2006, 00:38
>In fact I have never seen rice flailed anywhere but then I am not a rice farmer.

Good point. I believe the Japanese used a threshing machine called a "senbakoki", http://www.ina-ngn.ed.jp/%7Enewyama/H14/shiryoukan/noukou/senbakoki.JPG

where bundles of rice stalks were dragged through the teeth, breaking off the husks from the stem.

Perhaps on Okinawa they did it differently.

Chinese martial arts have a weapon called a 3 sectional staff (like a nunckaku but with three handles), my feeling is that nunchaku was originally a Chinese weapon that made it's way to Okinawa, and was used firstly as a weapon, then when Japanese authorities questioned an Okinawan about "that thing" they would say, "Oh this? Its um, a rice-flail sir..." in order to save their head from being lopped off...

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon

Prince Loeffler
28th February 2006, 06:38
Chinese martial arts have a weapon called a 3 sectional staff (like a nunckaku but with three handles), my feeling is that nunchaku was originally a Chinese weapon that made it's way to Okinawa, and was used firstly as a weapon, then when Japanese authorities questioned an Okinawan about "that thing" they would say, "Oh this? Its um, a rice-flail sir..." in order to save their head from being lopped off...

cheers,

Jason Wotherspoon


Jason, now this is an interesting theory. I mean there are some truth to this statement. after all the Okinawans were forbidden to carry weapons. I just wish we could find some source that can validate this theory. But its an interesting theory nonetheless. Thanks for sharing that link too by the way !

Brian Owens
28th February 2006, 07:34
...Chinese martial arts have a weapon called a 3 sectional staff (like a nunckaku but with three handles)...
Yes, and there is also a three-sectioned nunchaku, as well as one with one long and one short section.


...my feeling is that nunchaku was originally a Chinese weapon that made it's way to Okinawa, and was used firstly as a weapon, then when Japanese authorities questioned an Okinawan about "that thing" they would say, "Oh this? Its um, a rice-flail sir..." in order to save their head from being lopped off...
Intriguing thought. And very plausible.

In the film Budo the narrator says it was originally a device for "pounding beans." That seems even more arcane than flailing rice, but then...I've never pounded beans. (With apologies to JasonW.)

Brian Owens
28th February 2006, 07:44
...How did the Okinawan get all the credit?
Popularized in Japan, Europe, and America in recent times by karate teachers incorporating it (and other Ryukyu weapons) into their curricula.

If Chinese or Egyptian arts had been more popular in the '60s and '70s, we might have had a different view.

RobertRousselot
28th February 2006, 09:00
Jason, now this is an interesting theory. I mean there are some truth to this statement. after all the Okinawans were forbidden to carry weapons. I just wish we could find some source that can validate this theory. But its an interesting theory nonetheless. Thanks for sharing that link too by the way !


Actually only certain kinds of weapons.....bladed ones specifically.

RobertRousselot
28th February 2006, 09:05
The horse thingy/"numchucks" has been used as a bridal/bit in Okinawa. Therefore I would think it could have been of "pure" Okinawan invention since Japan and China used different types of bridals/bits.

The flail thingy I have seen in actual use while traveling in the boondocks of China. I have never seen one with 2 short handles, only 1 long and 1 short.

JasonW
28th February 2006, 14:11
Hi Brian,

>...I've never pounded beans. (With apologies to JasonW.)

Pounding beans? With a nunchaku? Can you imagine the mess that would make...bean paste flying everywhere! I think you'd get more on the floor and the walls than what'd be left in the pot.

Can't really see that as a *logical* use for a nunchaku...but then, I never pounded beans either.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it, my wife has. But she used a mortar and pestle - you know, the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true...

Prince Loeffler
1st March 2006, 00:21
Now what exactly is the use for the rice flail ? If Okinawa does not have "Rice Paddies" , Does Japan have rice paddies ?

JasonW
1st March 2006, 02:25
Sure they had rice in Okinawa. They grow it now, and they grew it at least as early as the 1850's, though of course its not in the same quantities as the mainland or its SE Asian neighbours, and they would have also imported a fair bit.

Which goes to say though yeah, they definitely could have had a rice flail, ...if they needed one for flailing rice with. But they also grew other grains, and if they flailed them, whether it be with a rice flail or a general grain flail, you would probably have a gadget that looked pretty much like a rice flail...so I don't think you could argue against nunchaku being a modified flail on the basis of whether they had grains to flail or not, but rather on the basis of whether or not nunchaku were a modified flail at all...

...I think that reads as what I was trying to say...

Edit: Interesting, I just did a Google image search on "rice flail" and all the sites that came up were karate sites that depicted a set of nunchakus or a 3 sectional staff. The only actual rice flailing implement that came up was from Korea, and looked nothing like a nunchaku. So perhaps this is a karate myth, that nunchaku come from a rice flail...


cheers,

RobertRousselot
1st March 2006, 06:45
1) Sure they had rice in Okinawa. They grow it now, and they grew it at least as early as the 1850's, though of course its not in the same quantities as the mainland or its SE Asian neighbours, and they would have also imported a fair bit.

2) Which goes to say though yeah, they definitely could have had a rice flail, ...if they needed one for flailing rice with. But they also grew other grains, and if they flailed them, whether it be with a rice flail or a general grain flail, you would probably have a gadget that looked pretty much like a rice flail...so I don't think you could argue against nunchaku being a modified flail on the basis of whether they had grains to flail or not, but rather on the basis of whether or not nunchaku were a modified flail at all...

...I think that reads as what I was trying to say...

3) Edit: Interesting, I just did a Google image search on "rice flail" and all the sites that came up were karate sites that depicted a set of nunchakus or a 3 sectional staff. The only actual rice flailing implement that came up was from Korea, and looked nothing like a nunchaku. So perhaps this is a karate myth, that nunchaku come from a rice flail...


cheers,

1) I think if you re-read Jurgens post you will see he said they didn't grow "much" rice in Okinawa. One of the reasons being that the content of the soil doesn't produce good rice.

2) It's possible but most of the evidnce that supports that claim is "urban legend" and not based on fact. If we apply the same logic to the Naihanchi Kata myth would it justify the reason for Naihanchi going only side to side? Hopefully not.

3) One has to consider the source of the information not the quantity.

TimJurgens
1st March 2006, 15:23
The two nunchakku kata we do are Maizato no Nunchaku and Akamine no Nunchaku both of which are less than 50 years old. Granted the weapons had been around longer but not as formalized kata that were worth preserving at least in Taira Shinken Sensei's mind.

I can tell you the soil in Okinawa was good for getting stuck to the bottom of field boots and M151 and then later HMMWV tires but I have never seen a rice patty there. I just asked my wife who is from Shuri and she said yes there are a few fields there but she couldn't tell me where just that she thought there were a few here or there. She then went on to say Sugar Cane and Pineapple were the main crops. Sorry I had forgotten about pineapple in my previous post. In fact that is the Okinawa to Hawaii connection but that is a different thread. Suffice to say that the rice there probably came in as trade goods from elsewhere preflailed so to speak :p

Point is that there are many many many urban myths about martial arts and I would have to believe that this is one.

BTW we have san bon nunchaku in our Hombu but no one knows a kata for them so either it was forgotten or someone dropped off a set as a gift. That happens from time to time.

I will also say that the Okinawan way of using the nunchaku and the Chinese way of using them. In the Okinawan way the grip is far away from the string. In the Chinese way it is closer to the string. The Okinawan way allows for blocking with the top part of the handle but makes it more difficult to flail rice..:rolleyes:.. I mean your opponent.

Sanseru
1st March 2006, 16:45
Hello Tim:

Just a couple of points and questions. My own teacher, Minowa Katsuhiko, stated that in Taira's dojo there were a few weapons that they never used and/or there were no kata for them such as Ticchu, Yon Shaku Bo and of course the San Bon Nunchaku. Although I do remember Minowa sensei saying that there were "techniques" for some of the weapons.

Also, when was Maezato no Nunchaku Dai renamed Akamine no Nunchaku in the Akamine lineage? Was this before or after his passing?

Kindest regards,

RobertRousselot
2nd March 2006, 00:07
I remembered why Okinawan rice is not very good. It has something to do with the high level of calcium found in the soil due to the fact that Okinawa is basically located on/made out of one big piece of coral.

TimJurgens
2nd March 2006, 14:04
Hello Tim:

Just a couple of points and questions. My own teacher, Minowa Katsuhiko, stated that in Taira's dojo there were a few weapons that they never used and/or there were no kata for them such as Ticchu, Yon Shaku Bo and of course the San Bon Nunchaku. Although I do remember Minowa sensei saying that there were "techniques" for some of the weapons.

Also, when was Maezato no Nunchaku Dai renamed Akamine no Nunchaku in the Akamine lineage? Was this before or after his passing?

Kindest regards,

They are different kata with a similar embusen. We use the Maezato no Nunchaku for 1st Kyu Grading and Akamine no Nunchaku for Shodan.

In the Hombu now there are Escrima left behind as a gift by Jun Cabarellio and some of his students, a wodden rifle left behind by a practioner of Jukendo, some iaito which are display models only, Sanbon Nunchaku as mentioned, a 9 Shaku bo which has a kata that had been lost by some and then recreated by some others and possibly remembered by a couple. I don know that a Ticchu is and I haven't seen Jo which is the same as a 4 Shakku Bo I would guess.

With 35 kata (some lost) as it is there is not much time for a lot of freelancing.

Sanseru
2nd March 2006, 16:08
Hi Tim:

I know that the two kata have essentially the same enbusen, but they did originally start out as Maezato no nunchaku sho and dai. So, as I asked previously, do you know when Maezato no nunchaku dai was renamed to Akamine no nunchaku?

I would agree that there are a lot of different weapons throughout kobudo, some minor, some major, and with the limited amount of time that a person has to practice, inevitably some get discarded or downplayed.

Cheers,

joe yang
5th March 2006, 09:07
For a more thorough web search, try "threshing flair". Threshing by the way is not removing the grain from the stalk per say. That is accomplished by beating the stalks against the threshing floor. Threshing breaks open the hulls, part of the seperation process, which includes winnowing. By the way, is it possible the winnowing basket influenced developement of another obscure weapon, the frisbee, which according to realultimatepower, the ninja can use to commit seppuka? Sorry, I'll go back to baffling budo now.

TimJurgens
7th March 2006, 13:41
Hi Tim:

I know that the two kata have essentially the same enbusen, but they did originally start out as Maezato no nunchaku sho and dai. So, as I asked previously, do you know when Maezato no nunchaku dai was renamed to Akamine no nunchaku?

I would agree that there are a lot of different weapons throughout kobudo, some minor, some major, and with the limited amount of time that a person has to practice, inevitably some get discarded or downplayed.

Cheers,

I am unaware of the second kata ever being called Maezato. As you probably know Maezato is Taira Shinken Sensei's birth name prior to his adoption. The kata was named after the composer and I was always told that Akamine Esuke Sensei composed the second kata.

http://ryukyu-kobudo.com/kata/kata_system.htm

We have listed the composers of each Kata as we know them and as Akamine Hiroshi Sensei has approved.

dsomers
7th March 2006, 16:27
There is another Nunchaku Kata taught within our system, by my instructor, Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei, Nichou Nunchaku. Does anyone know of the history of this kata? Does any of Taira Sensei's other students teach this Kata in their curriculum? I know John Sells teaches a version of Nichou Nunchaku, & seen one other instructor perform the same Kata, but I am not sure if this is the same Kata taught within our system.

David

Sanseru
8th March 2006, 16:03
Hello Tim:

I guess that we will have to agree to disagree :-) as my instructor (Minowa Katsuhiko) had taught me that both kata were originally called Maezato.

David:

I believe this kata was developed by Nakamoto sensei in the 1970's. In fact in the Taira 7th anniversary memorial demo, Nakamoto sensei is down for performing Niccho Nunchaku. My instructor picked this kata up from Nakamoto sensei in the 1980's and called it Nakamoto no Niccho Nunchaku (apparently Nakamoto sensei did not like having the kata named after him :-). He passed it on to Kinjo Masakazu and Yoshimura Hiroshi. I learned it last year when Yoshimura sensei came to Vancouver to give a seminar. So, at least in Minowa's lineage it is part of the curriculum.

Cheers,

dsomers
8th March 2006, 19:04
Thanks for the reply. Do you know if this is in fact the same Kata John Sells demonstrates on video, or if Nakamoto Sensei's Kata is a different one entirely? Thank you as always, for your help.

David

Sanseru
8th March 2006, 19:22
Hi David:

I can't comment on Mr. Sells' kata as I have never seen it.

Regards,

dsomers
8th March 2006, 21:59
Well, hopefully you will get to see it soon, & you can let me know, always been curious. BTW, that would make sense that he made it up. He told me himself, besides Eiku as you see him demonstrating most of the time, Nunchaku is also one of his favorites.
Mario, ck u'r PM's.

David

harleyt26
14th March 2006, 11:53
I am not sure that Mr. Jurgens and Sanseru are referring to the same nunchaku kata.I have a black and white video of Akamine sensei teaching the second kata quite differently than the way it is now taught in the Tesshinkan.Is it possible that Akamine sensei made some changes to the second kata before his students renamed it as Akamine no Nunchaku?In the earlier version after turning and dropping to your left knee you step up and straight forward,in the version we are taught now you step up and immediately turn to your left.Does this sound familiar to anybody?I have always wondered about these kata.I first learned the kata by video(big mistake,early version)and was quickly corrected by Tamayose sensei.But was never explained why Akamine did it differently in the old video,any guesses? Tom Hodges

Sanseru
14th March 2006, 15:53
Hello Tom:

Thank you for the clarification. The version that I learned from Minowa sensei that he called Maezato no nunchaku dai was the first one you described, i.e. turning and dropping to your left knee, you step up and straight forward, followed by a left thrust with the nunchaku. Minowa sensei was adamant that this kata was a creation of Taira Shinken.

When I moved back from Japan and saw some of the local Tesshinkan people perform this kata and refer to it as Akamine no nunchaku, I was quite surprised. However, I should have looked more closely as you have stated to notice that there are differences in the kata.

Kindest regards,

TimJurgens
19th March 2006, 03:39
I am just off for training with Kina Kensho Sensei in Tsurumi. He trained in Okinawa under Yonamine Sensei who is one of the original students of the system. If they used to call it Maezato no Nunchaku Dai he may remember that. I can also ask Akamine Hiroshi Sensei if he is aware of any other names of the Kata.

By the way my father was Mr. Jurgens I am just Tim ;-)

TimJurgens
19th March 2006, 13:08
I just asked Akamine Sensei and he said that originally there was just nunchaku sho and nunchaku dai. They changed the names to make remembering them a little easier and also to capture who had influence on the Katas.

Sanseru
20th March 2006, 19:48
Thanks for following up Tim. It still is a bit of a contradiction with respect to the names for myself personally, but so be it.

A rose by any other name is still a rose :-)

Kindest regards,