Atarashi Naginata compared to the classical schools

[Tal]

I wonder from the depth of my ignorance and without aiming to steam any dispute and with utmost respect to all streams ... how extensive is Atarashi Naginata compared to the classical ryu(s)?
I ask this question regarding postures, moves, strikes, defenses, kata versatility and anything else which is related to real combat knowledge. With your permission I would like to exclude from my question issues related to the philosophies behind these arts (like the fact that Atarashi Naginata is also a sport ...).

Thank you in advance,
Tal Bustan

[don]

I wonder from the depth of my ignorance and without aiming to steam any dispute and with utmost respect to all streams ... how extensive is Atarashi Naginata compared to the classical ryu(s)?
I ask this question regarding postures, moves, strikes, defenses, kata versatility and anything else which is related to real combat knowledge. With your permission I would like to exclude from my question issues related to the philosophies behind these arts (like the fact that Atarashi Naginata is also a sport ...).

Thank you in advance,
Tal Bustan

You might Google "Atarashi Naginata" and "Ellis Amdur"

It might be at koryu.com or somewhere on the web.

He has a chapter on it in his book Old School. Highly recommended.

[J. L. Badgley]

Recently there was a work that came out called, iirc: "Naginata: The Definitive Guide"... have it floating around here somewhere.

Anyway, it gives a good deal of information regarding the creation of Atarashii naginata and some of the reasons behind where it came from. Specifically it seems to have been derived from two schools: Tendo-Ryu and Jikishinkage-Ryu. The founder (whose name I'm forgetting right at the moment) wanted a way for people from both these schools to get together and practice/compete--both styles had found their way into parts of the education system and people were apparently learning one when they were younger and the other when they were older because of how it was offered in the schools.

She found, however, that in trying to create a 'seitei' (shikaki-oji) set she could not just meld the two together. So she tried her best to formulate a naginata v. naginata practice that merged elements of both schools. She also wanted a form of 'shiai', but in order to do that you needed to use a lighter haft (e) with bamboo blade (habu) that is significantly lighter than an actual naginata.

So there are differences, like hand positions and maai. However, I find it closer to its roots than kendo seems to be--doing both, I find that atarashii naginata has less that just doesn't make sense when seen in the light of koryu practice--most of the kamae and strikes can still be used with atarashii naginata, although there is the ability to get a bit 'whippy' and probably faster than you would be with real naginata and so certain blocks or parries might not be as effective as they should be otherwise.

That's my take on it. Gotta run to work--someone else here should have the info on that book, though.


-Joshua B.

[JakobR]

Hello,
I must add that the lighter bambo-naginata is a post-war invention. During the war (and before) naginata-shai was done with a full oak naginata protected by leather. Atarashi naginata is unlike its roots if you ask me but the kamae are mostly taken from Tendo ryu. The first set of kata (the shikake oji wasa) have no koryu in them as far as I know. The later set of kata (zen ichi kata) are inspired from various ryu ha, but again mostly Tendo ryu. I doubt if they are from any ryu ha using naginata vs naginata. The book "Naginata: The Definitive Guide" is a very good reading as well as Ellis Amdurs paper. The latter is a bit too negative towards Atarashii naginata though, blaming if for the downfall of koryu etc.

[gyrfalcon]

In regards to the question "How extensive?" atarashii naginata is not nearly as extensive as koryu. Koryu has more striking points and more flexibility in movement and speed. Atarashii naginata is designed for sport competition, which means that a lot of what you can do is absolute suicide to a koryu practitioner. Naginata techniques permissable in shiai have also been toned down a great deal--for example, thrusting with the butt end, the ishizuki, is now not permitted under any circumstances. Originally, one could strike for the throat or the solar plexus with it. The technique still exists in the kata, but in a very different form.

As for actual combat knowledge; I would agree with Josh that it is certainly closer than what modern kendo has become--or western Foil fencing, for that matter. And as with everything else, it also greatly depends on the teacher that you have. Some focus more on flexibility of thought and alternative techniques, others are more interested in honing the basic techniques to perfection. Some teachers are primarily interested in preparing you for shiai, others view atarashii naginata as a primer for more serious study (like koryu). You get to decide a great deal of what you want to take away from it.


The book "Naginata: The Definitive Guide" is a very good reading as well as Ellis Amdurs paper. The latter is a bit too negative towards Atarashii naginata though, blaming if for the downfall of koryu etc.

I wouldn't call it negative; I'd call it more of regretful. It does seem to be a fact that atarashii naginata, originally meant as a global vehicle to spark interest in training in koryu naginata, has become an end in itself and many of the koryu it was meant to revive interest in are dying. Many atarashii naginata practitioners have little-to-no interest in the koryu, preferring to focus on the competitive aspect of atarashii naginata.

It seems to be a somewhat inevitable trend, however. Sport versions designed to have more mass appeal almost inevitably eclipse and long outlive the original intent. Just look at olympic events such as the triathalon or the discus for examples of originally militant applications that have completely lost their roots. Or the javelin throw, for that matter.

[JakobR]

Many atarashii naginata practitioners have little-to-no interest in the koryu, preferring to focus on the competitive aspect of atarashii naginata.
True, but the koryu associated with AN such as Tendo ryu and Jikishinkage ryu are thriving so AN does support at least two koryu.

[JakobR]

Or the javelin throw, for that matter.
I think Julius Ceasar would have loved to have some olympic javelin throwers at Alesia. He might not have the same use of olympic fencers though ;)

[Kachimushi]

True, but the koryu associated with AN such as Tendo ryu and Jikishinkage ryu are thriving so AN does support at least two koryu.

I was reading through some old threads on Atarashii Naginata, and this comment made me stop and think. Yesterday we had a small Naginata tournament that was mostly attended by Jikishin Kage-ryu people. Before the competition started, there were some demonstrations of koryu. There were some pretty senior practitioners, so I was looking forward to seeing their koryu. Suffice it to say that most of them could barely make it through the solo kata (done without bokuto), and their techniques looked very Atarashii-like, which I think shows just how much they are practicing their koryu.
The biggest indication that there just aren`t that many people "keeping up" their koryu is the fact that I was asked to do the bokuto for the paired kata demonstration (I have some experience in Iai), even though there were many other people there that had been "doing" (theoretically at least) Jikishin Kage-ryu for much longer.
Long story, short- From my experience, I think that because of Atarashii Naginata Tendo-ryu and Jikishin Kage-ryu can be said to be surviving, not thriving.
I wonder if anything can be done to change the fact that koryu seems to have become a little thought of adjunct to Atarashii Naginata (Rhythmic Naginata and all) and is only something that gets taken out and dusted off a couple times a year for demontrations.

[Bruce Mitchell]

For me this is not as simple a question as it seems. For many years I myself focused more on training in Tendo Ryu, both because it is where my heart really is in naginata practice, but also because I had fallen prey to the trap of koryu snobbery. After participating in the 2003 WNC I was embarrassed about my Atarashi Naginata level, and decided that I needed to re-examine my opinions.

I thought about it and realized that when I watched my teacher (Tanaka Miyako) do Atarashi Naginata it created a strong impression for me. Then I thought about her teachers, who I have had the pleasure to train with over the years, people like Tokunaga Sensei, Sawada Sensei, and Funahara Sensei, and that they all practice and teach Atarashi Naginata. So I realized that if there was something missing in my Atarshi Naginata practice, it was inside of me, not in the art. Since that time it is my goal to try to learn the Atarashi Naginata that has been passed down to my teacher from her teachers, and to keep that practice alive.

While for me Atarashi Naginata will never have the depth of feeling that I experience with Tendo Ryu, I find it to be an excellent compliment to my koryu practice. The dynamic mai-ai (timing and distance) and the chance to interact outside of kata in A.N. and test myself and my knowledge, for example working on my oji-waza, is beneficial to my koryu practice. I no longer compare the two arts, just practicing them both for what they are, and find that my life is fuller for it.

[Kachimushi]

While for me Atarashi Naginata will never have the depth of feeling that I experience with Tendo Ryu, I find it to be an excellent compliment to my koryu practice. The dynamic mai-ai (timing and distance) and the chance to interact outside of kata in A.N. and test myself and my knowledge, for example working on my oji-waza, is beneficial to my koryu practice. I no longer compare the two arts, just practicing them both for what they are, and find that my life is fuller for it.

I totally agree with you, Mr. Mitchell. I hope that I didn`t come off sounding like Atarashii Naginata was inferior to koryu, just different. Right now my situation is such that I can`t study both koryu and AN, but I plan on doing it one day.
However, I think that you expressed my feelings very well when you said that AN is an excellent COMPLIMENT to koryu practice. I guess my reservations come from the fact that if koryu disappears, then a lot of what "is" naginata will also disappear, IMHO.
I heard a story the other day from one the senior students at my dojo about just what a dire situation it has become. She said that before an AN tournament two high ranking instructors in the prefecture did an embu of Jikishin Kage-ryu. The person doing the bokuto part held the sword the wrong way (blade up) the WHOLE demo. I can only assume that she didn`t even practice the forms enough to notice the HUGE mistake that she was making. Even if that kind of instructor is in the minority, I think that it`s only downhill for koryu from here.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Hi Mr. Gilchrist,
Thanks for the kind response. I didn't see anything negative in your initial question, my answer wasn't meant to be so much a defense of AN, just more my way of explaining why I no longer make direct comparisons. For what it is worth, I think that it can also be hard to compare koryu bujutsu schools. For instance some are more battlefield oriented, and some represent more of a mindset from a period when duelling was more frequent. It is hard to make direct comparisons because of this.

That said, in the spirit of your original question, I would say that the curriculum of AN is not as broad as what you see in the koryu, but as in any endeavor, mastery of those techniques can take a lifetime.

As far as relating to real combat knowledge, there are both physiological and psychological differences between the AN and Tendo Ryu (I don't want to comment on other Naginata Koryu since I have not studied them). I believe that Tendo Ryu is still comprised of viable techniques, but more than that, the kata teach an over-all strategy or approach to conflict (heiho) that is still applicable to "real" combat knowledge.

While AN may not have been created with the same sense of heiho, at it's best it still can teach focus and concentration, self control,build self confidence, teach flexibility in dynamic situations, and improve both a person's sense of timing and distance, and increase reaction time, all of which are applicable to dealing with conflict.

While I feel that AN does not recreate either the psychological or physiological stresses of the combat enviornment, as I believe the koryu do, the benefits of AN are complimentary to what the Koryu have to offer.

As far as the demo you have described, all I can say is that I have seen some great koryu demos, and some equally terrible, just as I have seen both good and bad gendai budo demonstrations. I don't worry as much about the koryu as I used to, since I believe that they are not as dependent on growth for their survival, and there are examples of arts that have maintained their intergrity while only have a couple of active practitioners. As for someone holding a tachi upside down, I would not base my judgement on that alone. I have seen people who are technically expert, but their practice is devoid of spirit. Often times it is the intangible elements that are more important. I have seen old age contribute to great teachers making embarrassing mistakes (like fumbling with a weapon) yet still watched them spirtually and psychologically dominate the encounter.

[Kachimushi]

Mr. Mitchell,

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your experience. What you have said has given me much food for thought. I guess what I should be doing is focusing on my own training and trying grow as both a person and a martial artist.
Thanks again for your input!