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JLawrence
4th March 2006, 18:49
I'm sure the general consensus here is that we train so in the event of a physical altercation, we can feel confident in our ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones and make it home safely. We train so we can walk the streets at night with less fear, knowing that if the need arises we can handle a dangerous situation. We derive a feeling of contentment and ease of mind from this knowledge, correct?

Yet how many times have outside parties accused MA practicioners of living a less content and a more paranoid life than the average untrained civilian? More than once I've heard people who don't involve themselves in MA's saying a compliation of:

"You're training in case you ever get into a fight. You walk around at night being aware of your surroundings and you stand in the most advantageous position for combat. A lot of people go their entire lives without ever getting into a fist fight, let alone risking murder or mugging. You train to fight so you expect a fight. Don't you think you're being just a little paranoid? How is that a life of contentment if you're always looking over your shoulder?"

I disagree with the above statement. I'm just curious to hear other's opinions on where to draw the line between contentment and paranoia, comfort and discomfort, fear disguised by peace of mind, and the accuracy or inaccuracy of outside opinion.

Thanks for your time.

George Kohler
4th March 2006, 19:39
Why is this in the Ninpo forum? I may move this to the "Budo no Kokoro" forum.

Cufaol
4th March 2006, 20:22
Well, fact is that we ARE indeed more paranoid than the average person. That's the whole idea isn't it? (remember: When you step out the door, act as if a thousand enemies surround you)

However, my primary training goal is spiritual refinement. Not being able to participate in some back alley fight. It comes as a "bonus" to me. But it's just me ofcourse. My MA-background has probably a lot to do with it. (Ninpo-taijutsu-yoga etc.... you've got the picture.) :)

Nice thread by the way. It really made me think about my motivation. nice.

Cheers, C.

JLawrence
4th March 2006, 20:35
Why is this in the Ninpo forum?

I'm a student of ninpo and my curiousity was directed towards responses from other ninpo practicioners in particular. I'm aware it's more of a general martial arts topic, however, so I respect your decision to move the thread if that's what you choose to do.

Ting Chuan
4th March 2006, 20:57
Howdy,
Just another perspective, not necassarily right or wrong.

I was once told: " It's better to have and not need, than to need and not have."

Take that for what it's worth.

Gambatte,

~ Rob Acox

mdamignani
4th March 2006, 21:02
ignorance is bliss, The general public is ignorant of the threats out there (most of the time)
sincerly
Matthew
Damignani

Chris Thompson
4th March 2006, 23:10
>We train so we can walk the streets at night with less fear, knowing that if the need arises we can handle a dangerous situation. We derive a feeling of contentment and ease of mind from this knowledge, correct?>

You might be right, but I'm not sure that's a good thing. No one wants to walk around in fear, but realistically can MA training guarantee your safety if violence occurs? Of course not. The enemy might outnumber you. They might have guns. They might jump you from behind or when you're distracted. They just might be better than you. Or you might make a minor error in judgment- the kind that gets shrugged off when it happens in training- only this time it gets you killed. You cannot be such a good fighter that you don't have to be scared of violence, and I don't think it's a good idea to try. Even using your skills successfully can breed the kind of false confidence that could get you killed the next time. After successfully defending myself in a bar against a guy who tried to attack me, I was going around on cloud nine for days. Eventually I realized how dangerous that could be and thought back to how the fight could easily have gone completely differently if one tiny factor had been different. I had to struggle to get back to what I consider to be a more rational attitude- not "if I get into trouble I can handle myself" but "if I get in a fight I could die or go to jail."
I don't really train for self defense reasons, but to the extent that I'm concerned with self defense, all I want is a fighting chance. If I lose anyway, so be it. I do all the things you're talking about- checking for potential threats, positioning, etc- but my sense of contentment doesn't come from knowing that I can fight reasonably well. It comes from knowing that man is mortal and accepting that something bad might happen to me no matter what I do to prevent it.

-Chris Thompson

momoyama katsu
5th March 2006, 03:17
I'm sure the general consensus here is that we train so in the event of a physical altercation, we can feel confident in our ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones and make it home safely. We train so we can walk the streets at night with less fear, knowing that if the need arises we can handle a dangerous situation. We derive a feeling of contentment and ease of mind from this knowledge, correct? I got past that stage already. Didn't you? I started for all that paranoid BS but continue because I like all that nice, new age, self improvement crap.
"You're training in case you ever get into a fight. You walk around at night being aware of your surroundings and you stand in the most advantageous position for combat. A lot of people go their entire lives without ever getting into a fist fight, let alone risking murder or mugging. You train to fight so you expect a fight. Don't you think you're being just a little paranoid? How is that a life of contentment if you're always looking over your shoulder?" Isn't it just the n00bs who stand in dark alleys in their kuhrotty stances? And whats wrong with being aware of your surroundings?

JLawrence
5th March 2006, 04:07
I started for all that paranoid BS but continue because I like all that nice, new age, self improvement crap.

Obviously the main purpose of training is self-improvement, but learning self-defense tactics usually increases your ability to defend yourself.


Isn't it just the n00bs who stand in dark alleys in their kuhrotty stances? And whats wrong with being aware of your surroundings?

I completely agree with you, hence the reason I expressed my disagreement with outside assumption.

momoyama katsu
5th March 2006, 04:22
Obviously the main purpose of training is self-improvement, but learning self-defense tactics usually increases your ability to defend yourself.Ah! Now I am enlightened!!!!eleven!!!one!
I completely agree with you, hence the reason I expressed my disagreement with outside assumption.Yea. ...I did have a point though, maybe later I'll tell you what it is.

ichibyoshi
7th March 2006, 05:12
I never did MA for "self-defence", hence I do kendo. It blows the minds of the teenagers I teach at high school when I tell them I do MA. They then try and engage me as devil's advocate in all kinds of scenarios: "So if a kid is hasssling you in the school-yard, it's OK to use self-defence techniques on them isn't it sir?" "No, and I don't study self-defence." "You just said you did." "No, I said I study a martial art." "Yeah, you said you study self-defence." "No, I don't." "WHAT?" (this goes on for a while). These kids would not really understand a definition of "budo" as opposed to "bujutsu", so I have to just leave them to their confusion (which is a very creative state BTW!).

A very wise man once said to me: "If in your mind you constantly visualise black, then you will be surrounded by black. If you visualise green, you will be surrounded by green." Or as anyone who remembers the TV series "Monkey" from the 80s would remember from the opening: "Tathagata Buddha, the father Buddha said, 'With our thoughts, we make the world'."

So you might have surmised I place myself towards the contentment end of the "contentment/paranoia continuum".
=)

b

MikeWilliams
7th March 2006, 12:05
It is my belief that most martial-arts training is severely flawed as a means of self-defense. For that matter, most "self-defense" courses are severely flawed too.

If you really want to keep yourself and your family safe from harm, first examine your lifestyle. Then learn how to put yourself at minimal risk. Then learn how to avoid, escape or de-escalate dangerous situations. You can do all of that without ever setting foot inside a dojo.

In my experience, folks that train for fun/sport/spiritual development are much more content (and nicer to hang around with) than those that train mainly for self-defense, and are constantly asking themselves "what if?".

If you do set foot inside a dojo, train because you enjoy it and be satisfied with that.

cxt
7th March 2006, 23:19
Maybe frameing being more aware as "paranoia" is part of the problem?

There is good bit of difference in the meaning of the two words after all.

Would agree that I try to be more "aware" would not agree that I am "paranoid" about it.

Mike Williams, excellent points--the very best self-defense is common-sense.

CEB
8th March 2006, 20:48
I'm sure the general consensus here is that we train so in the event of a physical altercation, we can feel confident in our ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones and make it home safely. We train so we can walk the streets at night with less fear, knowing that if the need arises we can handle a dangerous situation. We derive a feeling of contentment and ease of mind from this knowledge, correct?.....

Wrong. Keiko must be without goals and without a 'purpose'.

Maro
8th March 2006, 21:32
I think there is a fair amount of Paranoia involved in some instances.

I've lived in the roughest parts of London and never experienced any issues - I was not training in MA at that stage.

If you're mentally looking for a fight, you'll find one.

ichibyoshi
9th March 2006, 02:52
I wonder whether this thread would have attracted different replies had it remained in the Ninpo forum? Would be an interesting experiment to ask the same question in two different fora and then compare the results.

b

gmanry
10th March 2006, 05:32
I look at my martial arts training as a distribution of worries, awareness, etc.

I may have to think about unpleasant things when I train. I put myself into high pressure (even if simulated) situations on a fairly regular basis. So, stress in the immediate is present. However, I learn a new set of coping skills for that stress and therefore, its long term emotional impact has been decreased when real situations have presented themselves. I have found myself less irrationally preoccupied with such events (attempted muggings, serious car wrecks where I have had to give aid, giving CPR, etc.).

As an example, just about a month ago the wife and I were driving to Casper, WY and came upon a Yukon and a snowmobile trailer flipped in the median. We got out, and I found myself in seiza holding up a guys legs who had gone into shock for about 35 minutes. The wife was rendering medical aid as well. Ambulances roll in, we help them get people on the back boards, and 15 minutes later we are at the next town getting McDonald's. Sure we were talking about it, assessing our performance, but we were also trying to decide what to put in the CD player. Some people who were helping were clearly shocked by the scene and the event. While it made us sad and concerned for the people, we were not dismayed by it in some sort of deep visceral manner.



So, the person who says that I am paranoid may indeed experience a little more day to day bliss, but when the SHTF, they tend to fold, particularly in the face of violence. My experience has been that I have not suffered from any PTSD or continued severe emotional stress. Students who I have trained in simulation self-defense have also reported that their ability to recover from stress is improved.

Also, untrained people tend to get paranoid by ludicrous things and downright myths. They will freak out to see a person of another ethnic minority on the street, when 95% of the crime is caused by somebody that looks exactly like them. They worry about strangers raping their daughters, girlfriends, wives, mothers (ethnic strangers to boot). However, at least here in Wyoming, many still drive without seat belts and drive while drinking, not driving drunk, I mean drinking WHILE driving. I won't even get into the smoking thing.

So, I think my worries are much more rational and as a result of my training I can handle it when SHTF in many situations (haven't been shot at, thank God).

So, it is a distribution, I experience some lower stress up front so that serious stress down the road is (hopefully) not so detrimental. Now, if it would just allow me to stop flipping out when I lose my keys or wallet in the house. :)

As Gavin DeBecker says in "The Gift of Fear" "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."