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stanley neptune
15th March 2006, 13:07
Folks,

Here in the Boston area we have no legitimate Aikijujutsu schools. We have several renowned and excellent Aikido dojo. Kanai sensei's school, Gleason Senseis' school, Perriello sensei's schools and Mulligan's club just to name a few. We have one new Hapkido school.

With no Aikijujutsu schools in the region, if one wanted to study an art which is similar to AJJ which is closer Hapkido or Aikido?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Stanley Neptune

Jari Tuomivirta
15th March 2006, 13:15
Aikido's link to it's Aikijujutsu roots are clear and well known. Hapkido's link has been argued about.

Aikido has a training culture, including language and training habits, very similar to Aikijujutsu. Hapkido has adopted a more Korean approach.

Aikido's technique repertoire is derived directly from Aikijujutsu's, while Hapkido's repertoire has very distinct influences from other arts and sources.

So, if one's purpose is to study an art "as similar to Aikijujutsu as possible", my choice would be Aikido.

TommyK
15th March 2006, 19:15
Hello Stanley,

While Jari's comments ring with truth, there are other facts to consider.

First, the founders of both Aikido and Hapkido supposedly studied with Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu expert Takeda sensei. Although the claims of Aikido's founder are substanially easier to document than those of Hapido's founder, I have heard few deny that Hapkido has serious links to Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu.

Secondly, in my opinion, Hapkido has retained the 'harder' edge more so than the practicioners of Aikido, with few exceptions....namely those that follow the Yoshinkan, Yoseikan and even Tomiki paths of Aikido. Interestingly enough, the Founders of these branches of Aikido studied as uchideshi with O'Sensei earlier in his career, when his teachings were linked closer to Takeda's world of techniques, which O'Sensei often termed, at the time, Aiki Budo.

Thirdly, Hapido does not have the heavy emphasis on Ki which O'Sensei keyed up later in his life, after WWII. This fact also makes it closer to the previously named versions of Aikido I have mentioned.

Lastly, the effects of Korean nationalism on everything Korean is hard to escape. Hapido has been made distinctly Korean in its public face.

In my humble opinion, I beleive that the Founder of Hapkido took what he learned from Daito-Ryu AJJ and made it uniquely its own, as O'Sensei did with his Aikido. However, I believe Hapkido retained the harder edge and added some offense strikes (kicks and so on) to its curriculum, which Aikido lacks.

Hapkido never claimed to be a system to become 'one with the universe', a principle I am not judging, just relating. HOWEVER, Hapkido is still a 'cousin' to Aikido, as they both seem to stem from the same root.

This was emphasised for me some years ago when I ventured into my local dry cleaners, who happened to be Korean, while I was wearing a t-shirt with Aikido written in Japanese kanji characters. The Dry Cleaner looked at the shirt, and beamed with pride while asking me where I studied Hapkido! Obviously, in his mind it was all the same. So I feel its all a circle, because its all ultimately from the same source...Daito-Ryu AJJ

Regards,
TommyK

Richard Elias
15th March 2006, 19:38
Actually it was probably because Hapkido and Aikido use the exact same Chinese characters, Hapkido is just how it’s pronounced in Korean.

glad2bhere
16th March 2006, 01:06
The parallels between Aikido and Hapkido will probably fare better if you are practicing IHF (International Hapkido Federation) material as it was the avowed goal of its founder Myong Jae Nam to pull these two arts closer together. However, if you find yourself in a KHF or KIDOHAE affiliated school you may expect to find yourself a bit in over your head at first. As mentioned earlier, traditional Hapkido is not all about "warm-fuzzy" feelings. I am not about becoming "one with my attackers" as much as I am interested in making my attacker "one with the floor". I didn't ask the moron to attack me so I won't be taking responsibility for his gross stupidity. I am willing to accept the bad karma for breaking a couple of his joints in an effort to educate him regarding his poor decision-making skills. Just some varied thoughts on a Wednesday evening.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

don
16th March 2006, 04:04
Were it me, I'd go by teacher rather than art.

Raff
16th March 2006, 07:23
I would definetely choose Hapkido for all the good reasons exposed by Tommy K and the excellent Bruce.

Mark Jakabcsin
16th March 2006, 14:52
Stanley,
I thought you were going to train with Arthur S. over in Cambridge. Without seeing and visiting the schools in your area that would be my suggestion.

MJ

glad2bhere
16th March 2006, 16:55
Dear Stanley:

Have you visited the new Hapkido school in your area? Perhaps if you could provide a bit of information about the school it might be easier to give you some additional insights into what you might expect.

Also: If you are able to attend Sensei Kanai's classes in Cambridge I can't imagine you needing much more than that. Just a thought.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kotev
16th March 2006, 19:51
Also: If you are able to attend Sensei Kanai's classes in Cambridge I can't imagine you needing much more than that. Just a thought.


Bruce,

Kanai Sensei has passed on in May of 2004.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2004/05/05/mitsunari_kanai_64_leading_teacher_of_aikido_martial_art/

Stephen

stanley neptune
16th March 2006, 22:16
Yes Kanai Sensei passed in 2004 but his yudansha still teach there.

I keep flirting with the idea of Arthur S's Systema school but he only teaches one night a week. That does not seem like enough training. Besides he teaches on Tuesday and I'd miss American Idol.

I did visit the Hapkido school in East Boston. The instructor is Hal Whalen of the KHF (?) I believe. Nice nice guy. 7th degree black belt.

I can't get past the heavy nationalistic Korean thing. He teaches in a TKD school and the place is plastered with Korean flags, Korean pictures and Korean memorobilia. It almost smacks of Korean propaganda. I am not kidding you can not even see the walls throught he Korean stuff all over the place.

I might just throw on the old Judo gi and jump in to one of his Monday night classes (then I'd miss 24) or Wednesday night classes (then I'd miss the results show from American Idol).

Stanley Neptune

szczepan
21st March 2006, 02:22
Secondly, in my opinion, Hapkido has retained the 'harder' edge more so than the practicioners of Aikido, with few exceptions....namely those that follow the Yoshinkan, Yoseikan and even Tomiki paths of Aikido.
Hi Stanley,
If you really like "harder edge", New England Aikikai is definitly the best choice. Top level North America aikido.
Best thing is to go and try. So we may meet one day :)

DLC
21st March 2006, 14:57
Just a thought, I am sure there will be varying opinions on this but Tony Anessi's Takeshin Dojo teaches Karate and Aikijujutsu. The Aikijujutsu is based on Kamishin/Hakko Ryu Jujutsu and has been influenced by other known Aiki/Jujutsu based arts as well. I went to his Bushido Kai dojo and found him to be extremely knowledgable and a great teacher.
His school is outside Boston though, In Framingham. I am not sure how far that is from Boston, I do not remember it being TOO far though.
Just another opinion

stanley neptune
21st March 2006, 18:50
Tony Annessi's top student ran the Renrikan in South Boston for years. Jim Poli was teaching Annesi's Takeshin arts. He retired from teaching within the last year. He had some health issues.

Scczepan, isn't New England Aikikai very crowded? I heard the classes are upwards of 30 people. I did hear the Aiki taught there had a hard edge. In fact I heard it from the other major dojo in the Boston area. That sounds good to me.

Stanley Neptune

TommyK
21st March 2006, 19:44
Hello Stanley,

Even O'Sensei had once been a proponent of the 'harder edge school' of techniques, as evidenced by the following quote from Shioda sensei, concerning the use of atemi:

“Many of you are likely surprised at how often I use atemi. This is only natural since when we talk about Aikido, every one is caught up in images of wrist grabs and flashy throws. However, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei, himself, who was my master at one point, expressed himself in the following manner. He said, ‘In a real fight, Aikido is 70 percent atemi and 30 percent throwing’. Based on my own experience, I can say that this is precisely the case."(1)

Imagine, Aikido is 70% strikes! It just shows how important it is to know who studied with the Master and when did they study. Shioda sensei's statement is based upon his early uchideshi experience with O'Sensei when using Aiki Budo to describe what he was teaching from his Daito-Ryu experience.

This explains my earlier statements concerning the 'harder edge of Aikido'. For my money, I respect Hapkido but the emphasis on things Korean leaves me to prefer the Yoshinkan and Tomiki versions of Aikido. Believe me, learn these types of technqiues, as taught by these styles, and use atemi...there will be little doubt about the 'harder edge' and their self defense capabilities.

(1) the quote from Shioda sensei was contained in the folowing book, one which I HIGHLY recommend: "Aikido Shugyo: Harmony in Confrontation by Gozo Shioda, translated by Jacques Payet & Christopher Johnston. Toronto, Canada: Shindokan International, 2002. 207 pages. Hardcover Book, US, $27.50.

(Originally published in Japanese as “Aikido Shuygo: Tai Sureba Aiwasu”. Copyright 1991, Shioda Gozo and Jiromaru Akio.)

Order from: www.ShindokanBooks.com

Regards,
TommyK

stanley neptune
21st March 2006, 22:34
Quote:For my money, I respect Hapkido but the emphasis on things Korean leaves me to prefer the Yoshinkan and Tomiki versions of Aikido. Believe me, learn these types of technqiues, as taught by these styles, and use atemi...there will be little doubt about the 'harder edge' and their self defense capabilities.

I hear ya. I don't get the constant emphasis on all things Korean to the point if being extremely nationalistic. It is a turn off. But what do you do when you find a good teacher?

Stanley Neptune

TommyK
22nd March 2006, 03:04
Hi Stanley,

As many here know, I study and instruct in a school of Korean Karate and Self-Defense. Basically we are an 'old school' version of Korean Karate from the time of the Korean Kwans. We study the Korean version of Japanese/Okinawan Karate, brought back from WWII era Japan, that never developed into Taekwondo.

My experience with Taekwondo is that of a manufactured art, which has evolved into a 'sport' using padding when sparring. I am not anti-Taekwondo, but I feel what we do in our school is the way Korean Karate should have stayed. However, there are compelling reasons for the intense nationalism associated with the development of Korean Martial Arts. These reasons stem from Japan's treatment of Korea from 1910, causing the Korean peoples to claim their art is totally divorced from Japanese MA's. I understand why Korean people feel this way, I just don't subscribe to the 'flag waving'. If I was of Korean background I might feel the way they do.

Anyway, nationalism aside, a good teacher is a good teacher. I had one here in the now retired Founder of our school and stayed here because of him. I also like that we study the core of Korean Kwan Karate, brought to Korea from Japan, and we supplement it with elements of Kodokan Judo and techniques from Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido.

If you like what you see and the Instructor is good, stay there. I was just trying to point out that Daito-Ryu influenceis evident in some branches of Aikido, as I have mentioned previously.

Good luck with your search and I hope you find what you are looking for...maybe when you settle on a school or teacher you could let E-Budo know.

Good luck and regards,
TommyK

God'zilla
1st April 2006, 14:59
I might just throw on the old Judo gi and jump in to one of his Monday night classes (then I'd miss 24) or Wednesday night classes (then I'd miss the results show from American Idol).

Stanley Neptune

TiVO? A VCR... maybe?

glad2bhere
1st April 2006, 18:02
Just a couple of quick side comments.


Korean martial arts ARE Korean. They are Korean because people of Korean culture made decisions about what they would do and how they would do it. This is the same thing that makes Japanese arts Japanese and Chinese arts Chinese. Yes, much of WHAT Koreans do comes from other places just like here in the US. What makes the activity Korean ---- even if the material comes from someplace else--- are the decisions Koreans make about that material once they get their "hands" (culture) around it.

Personally I think the whole theme about Korean nationalism gets over-played by people wanting to over-simplify things. The Korean were not necessarily the passive victims during the Occupation that some would like the World to believe. However, be that as it may, most Koreans desire that the World extend to them the respect any culture would want regarding their values and behaviors. If the Koreans take Karate and apply their own cultural values to it, it becomes TKD or TSD. This is the same as when the Japanese took the Tang Chinese governmental model and adopted it to produce their own unique form of administration. Noone calls the government of Japanese History "Tang Confucianism", do they? Just some thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

don
1st April 2006, 19:34
This is the same as when the Japanese took the Tang Chinese governmental model and adopted it to produce their own unique form of administration. Noone calls the government of Japanese History "Tang Confucianism", do they?

Actually, I think they do, don't they? Don't have my books in front of me, but the phrase rings true. Nevertheless, I take your point and have made it myself on more than one ocassion.


If the Koreans take Karate and apply their own cultural values to it, it becomes TKD or TSD.

Sure. I"ve maintained this not only about cross-cultural transmission, but transmission through generations, too.

But this self-conscious awareness of lineage is a far cry from what many Koreans have claimed vis a vis the arts deriving from centuries' old KOREAN--as opposed to Japanese--art. The distinction is worth making.

glad2bhere
1st April 2006, 20:16
".....But this self-conscious awareness of lineage is a far cry from what many Koreans have claimed vis a vis the arts deriving from centuries' old KOREAN--as opposed to Japanese--art. The distinction is worth making...."

Absolutely. This is what I consider "going too far the OTHER direction."

I have no idea why its necessary for Koreans to invoke such obscure resources as the HWA RANG warriors when there is such a poverty of sound research on what their actual nature was. In my own research I have chosen not to go back any earlier than the beginning of the KORYO Period (C. 1190) and the advent of the "House Armies" of that time. Even then, while the politics of the period are reasonably understood, and there is certainly no question as to the existence of Martial traditions, the exact nature of those traditions and their applications is still highly speculative. For my money, if one were to want to pin-point the inception of what we know today as Korean Martial traditions I would start with King Danjong (Choson Dyn 1452 - 1455) or better King Sejo (Choson Dyn 1455 - 1468). FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

yipark
1st April 2006, 20:27
Bruce,

Kanai Sensei has passed on in May of 2004.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/obituaries/articles/2004/05/05/mitsunari_kanai_64_leading_teacher_of_aikido_martial_art/

Stephen

He died in Toronto on Sunday, March 28, 2004.

YoungIn Park

don
2nd April 2006, 05:53
In my own research....

Interesting. Thanks for the follow up.

Joseph Svinth
2nd April 2006, 07:55
Bruce --

Hwarang are associated with the Silla kingdom, meaning South Korea. Everybody you mention is associated with Pyongyang.

Get the picture?

glad2bhere
2nd April 2006, 12:41
He died in Toronto on Sunday, March 28, 2004.

YoungIn Park

I am very sorry to hear of his passing. He was a great man and an extraordinary teacher.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
2nd April 2006, 12:49
Bruce --

Hwarang are associated with the Silla kingdom, meaning South Korea. Everybody you mention is associated with Pyongyang.

Get the picture?

Ah, yes. There is that as well, yes?

Dr. KIMM He-young has been escorting groups to North Korea in an effort to develop rapport using KMA as a venue. Not unlike the "ping-pong diplomacy of the Nixon years, yes? For myself I would not mind participating in such efforts. Failing that, I guess the best I can do right now is my part in addressing some of the propaga---- er---- "oral traditions" promoted by members of the last generation.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

ninja dude
6th April 2006, 21:20
Just a couple of quick side comments.


If the Koreans take Karate and apply their own cultural values to it, it becomes TKD or TSD. This is the same as when the Japanese took the Tang Chinese governmental model and adopted it to produce their own unique form of administration. Noone calls the government of Japanese History "Tang Confucianism", do they? Just some thoughts.



Bruce


But the japanese dont make up a false history about it and claim that it has been in their country for thousands of years. the thing that is so weird to me is that one korean with say yes it is a japanese art and the other one will say no it is totally korean. just surf the net a little and you can see what i am talking about.

Ron Tisdale
6th April 2006, 22:04
But the japanese dont make up a false history about it

cough...have you READ some of the stories of how ryu were created???

Hmmmmm,
Ron

glad2bhere
6th April 2006, 22:47
But the japanese dont make up a false history about it and claim that it has been in their country for thousands of years. the thing that is so weird to me is that one korean with say yes it is a japanese art and the other one will say no it is totally korean. just surf the net a little and you can see what i am talking about.

Dear John:

Unfortunately I know just enough about Japanese history to really get myself into trouble. I have to take things at your word that the Japanese do not misrepresent their history. I have heard that the nature of martial arts and martial science during the late Tokugawa period was rife with romanticism and misrepresentation but again, I am no authroity on this so I will need to defer to others who are more familiar.

OTOH, I can speak with at least some authority on the manner in which Korean martial traditions are represented. I would ask you to work hard not to confuse representations concerning Korean martial tradition with the marketing strategies of many martial arts enterprises. Asking many martial arts entrepeneurs to speak intelligently on Korean hisotry is not altogether unlike asking an American Major League player to discourse on US Political Science. In short the relationship of most proponents of KMA regarding KMT is just about the same as the relationship between Luke Skywalker and JSA.
There are some great resources out there. Don't believe everything you see in BLACK BELT Magazine.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Neil Yamamoto
6th April 2006, 23:32
Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Phillippino, etc... There are plenty of lies to go around about the origins of an art.

There are plenty of fools who will believe it without checking themselves.

It goes on still today, the guy teaching shin-koryu as an example. Another someone who has been a e-budo thread feature and who's first name starts with a J and last name with a B, is hysterically funny to anyone who has any history knowledge, but sadly is taken seriously by too many who don't.

Another guy who says although he never really studied aikido in depth, he can teach it because he and Ueshiba are both incarnations of the same kami.

Like PT Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute." Work to not be a sucker.

Joseph Svinth
7th April 2006, 03:08
Bruce --

You might like John S. Brownlee, Japanese Historians and the National Myths, 1600-1945: The Age of the Gods and Emperor Jinmu (Vancouver, BC: University of British Columbia Press, 1997).

As for invented traditions, I'm sure you've already read Tom Green's essay in "Martial Arts in the Modern World." But, have you backed up to Hobsbawm and Ranger? Do, if you haven't.

glad2bhere
8th April 2006, 14:26
Thanks, Joe. Thats why I come here.

BTW: I have run into a rather "unique" research problem that I would appreciate your comments on. I could discuss it here, can start a separate thread or can PM you. It concerns the approximations I am doing with the KWON BUP chapter of the MYTBTJ and General Qi's "Boxing Canon" from the JIN XIAO SHIN SHU. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Joseph Svinth
8th April 2006, 21:24
I'd say start a separate thread.

It's been a long time since I've looked at any of that stuff. Eric Madis might know more, but you'd need to e-mail him.

TommyK
8th April 2006, 22:57
Greetings,

Joe is absolutely right, Eric is the one to talk to about this connection.

I know this is a resource for Japanese Martial Arts and Culture, but I still believe that there is more to the influence of Japanese MA, in other lands, than just confining that influence to Japan. I believe that there should be a forum on other arts, which have been influenced by Japan, like Korean Kwan Karate. The purpose of this forum would be to better understand the influence of Japan on these other arts.

Understanding how Japan left its mark on these arts highlights the prominent influence that stems from Japan in other arts. I also believe many of those on this board can share their knowledge and research on such arts. Chi Do Kwan, Korean Karate, can best be understood by understanding Toyama and Mabuni's respective Japanese arts which the Founder of Chi Do Kwan studied in Japan, under these two sensei.

Just a suggestion,
Regards,
TommyK

Tim Mailloux
8th April 2006, 23:31
Hi Stanley,
If you really like "harder edge", New England Aikikai is definitly the best choice. Top level North America aikido.
Best thing is to go and try. So we may meet one day :)

I will agree that New England Aikikai is a top notch school, and that Kanai sensei was a great teacher. But I wouldn't go so far to say that the aikido practiced there has a "harder edge". Harder edge when compared to what?

stanley neptune
17th April 2006, 17:53
I have practiced Kenpo, JKD and Wing Chun. I know a little about hard edges. While a harder edge is helpful I believe (based on my orientation), that is not necessarily what I am looking for. I have heard that Lou Perriello Sensei's school, Northeast Aikikai, practices Aikido with an emphasis on a martial application. They may suggest a "harder edge".

I am interested in body mechanics and aiki principles. Hard or soft? Is it that important? Will it help with Self defense? Will it help my golf game? (according to the "Tao of Golf" it will)

Has anyone experienced Perriello Sensei's Aikido? I believe he is a former Law Enforcent Official.

Someone told me that AJJ is actually just as soft or softer than Aikido. I believe the person was referring to the Roppokai.

Thanks

Stanley Neptune

glad2bhere
18th April 2006, 00:33
As an outsider could someone explain to me the concept of a "harder edge".

I am familiar with the practice in Korean arts of adding authority to a technique by increasing velocity, adding force (strength), tightening the vectors/tangents involved and amplifying a technique though use of various sensitive points. Are these bits that contribute to a "harder edge" or is this some concept unique to what Japanese practitioners do? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Tim Mailloux
19th April 2006, 20:43
As an outsider could someone explain to me the concept of a "harder edge".

I am familiar with the practice in Korean arts of adding authority to a technique by increasing velocity, adding force (strength), tightening the vectors/tangents involved and amplifying a technique though use of various sensitive points. Are these bits that contribute to a "harder edge" or is this some concept unique to what Japanese practitioners do? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

As you may or may not be aware, there are many style or flavor of aikido. Some like Iwama & Yoshinkan are very physical while other have almost no real martial content and are people dancing in funny clothes. Most styles or flavors fall in the middle some where.

I made a comment saying that “New England Aikikai has a harder edge than what?”. I guess I was looking for a reference point for that persons claim. IMO New England Aikikai is a very good dojo, and is fairly typical of the style of aikido practiced by the Aikikai in general. But I would not go so far is to describe the way they train there as hard. It all comes back to what that person is comparing it to. Hard compared to Ki Society aikido, than the answer would be yes. Hard compared to Chiba sensei’s Birankai , Iwama or Yoshinkan, No.

Ron Tisdale
19th April 2006, 21:16
Tim, you'd better be glad Mr. S is in Japan and can't read that...he'd beat you like a red-headed step child if he was here!

;)
Best,
Ron

Tim Mailloux
19th April 2006, 21:52
Tim, you'd better be glad Mr. S is in Japan and can't read that...he'd beat you like a red-headed step child if he was here!

;)
Best,
Ron

He may still be able to read it even though he is in Japan. And if he makes it to the Chiba sensei seminar next month, I will be more than glad to give him the opurtunity. What I lack in technique, I more than make up for in being able to take a well earned beating :) Those red headed step child beatings are my favorite :)

Ron Tisdale
19th April 2006, 21:55
Oh man, now I HAVE to make it up!

B,
R ;)

Tim Mailloux
19th April 2006, 22:08
Oh man, now I HAVE to make it up!

B,
R ;)

Well if you do, you and Mr S. will have to work out who gets to give me the first beating. I can see the waiting line now :)

Seriously it should be a great seminar.

glad2bhere
20th April 2006, 01:39
"....Hard compared to Ki Society aikido, than the answer would be yes. Hard compared to Chiba sensei’s Birankai , Iwama or Yoshinkan, No....."

Thanks, Tim. Much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bohe
1st May 2006, 16:30
Train both