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bert sijben
21st March 2006, 03:15
http://www.shindomusoryu.com/whatisjodo.htm

Excellent website about joDo

Best regards Bert Sijben, fukuoka Japan

FastEd
22nd March 2006, 17:27
http://www.shindomusoryu.com/whatisjodo.htm

Excellent website about joDo

Best regards Bert Sijben, fukuoka Japan


If you don't mind me asking, who's website is this? I agree, it is quite nice, the training curriculum is quite detailed. And I have never heard of the "Matsumura no Jo" before...Quite interesting. Thanks for the post.

Fred27
22nd March 2006, 18:23
If you don't mind me asking, who's website is this?
I've been wondering that meself.

charlesl
22nd March 2006, 18:40
Andrea Henson who trains or trained in Nagoya?

Fred27
23rd March 2006, 09:41
Andrea Henson who trains or trained in Nagoya?

Are you asking us if it is Andrea Henson or are you telling us it is Andrea Henson..caus I have no clue, and I can't find any names on the site either. (I'm prolly not looking hard enough) :p :)

Anyways, the reason I'm curious is because parts of this site has some.."unique".. ways of expressing itself to the person reading it. Most of it is quite good. I'm not judging the techical aspects though, just the way they are presented. But some parts are giving off a negative vibe, at least when I read it. It feels sorta cynical sometimes, especially when reading the statements that "shinto muso ryu" is a dying art,
Although unfortunate, but true, Jodo is a dying art.
The increase in TV, computers, video games, and other past-times give people more variety and choice in how they spend their free time. The combination of these two facts is the reason that Shinto Muso Ryu is a dying art. , and other stuff like this:
Today Shinto Muso Ryu is fragmented and divided. Most dojos operate independently of each other. Since Shimizu Sensei`s death, the absence of a headmaster has resulted in discord and confusion.

Of course all that is prolly true and I'm not arguing the effects of Shimizu senseis death and that Jodo is fragmented, but nowhere do I really see any kind of positive enforcements whatsoever, all I can see are the negative bits. No real personal statment of the value of Jodo and the rewards you reap as to offset the "dying"-part. Nothing to say "hey! come and practice a genuine koryu with us, it will be great!", but more like "jodo is going away eventually so why bother coming here to train".

The author of the site uses caps sometimes to illustrate what to do or not to do in a kata. Again I must mention I'm not judging the technical aspects as I havent even finished Omote, but some of the descriptions give off a: "You must do it this way because any different is an insult to Jodo." Eventhough that is prolly not the intention of the author, and using caps is a good way of illustrating critical points, it still sorta gives a negative impression in some descriptions.

This section illustrates my point exactly: http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/uchikomi.htm

Stuff like this however is top quality in my own opinion :
Begin the same as Hissage. However, as you bring your feet together (Heisoku dachi) use the jo to lift the Odachi (to block any movement of the Odachi with the jo under Uchidachi`s wrist.) Short, precise, neutral in point of view and most likely accurate.

But nevertheless it was a negative overall first-impression I got from the site.
I hope i'm not stepping on anyones toes here. Maybe I'm overanalyzing my first impressions, and maybe I have a preference for a neutral point of view due to my Wikipedia-stuff. http://www.budo.se/forum/images/smilies/bow.gif

FastEd
23rd March 2006, 15:56
The part that caught my attention was the recent historical background, listing details that I have never heard before. Is anyone able to corroborate these points?

George Kohler
23rd March 2006, 16:59
Domain Name: SHINDOMUSORYU.COM

Registrant: adhenson

charlesl
23rd March 2006, 19:10
Are you asking us if it is Andrea Henson or are you telling us it is Andrea Henson..caus I have no clue, and I can't find any names on the site either. (I'm prolly not looking hard enough) :p :)

Naw, I'm guessing. I did the same thing that George did, ran "shindomusoryu.com" through WHOIS, it listed the registrant's email (adhenson22@yadayada). Did a google search on adhenson22, got three hits, one of them for a "training journal." You can follow the link, but it's password protected (actually, yesterday when I did this the server was just down). However, google kindly cached an old copy for her, so if you follow the cache link you'll find some old stuff that indicates that the site is probably hers.

C'mon guys, it takes a whole two minutes to do this, and that's if you're goin' slow...

Fred27
23rd March 2006, 20:07
The part that caught my attention was the recent historical background, listing details that I have never heard before. Is anyone able to corroborate these points?

I'm no expert either, but one thing that caught my eye was the "Matsumura no Jo"-kata. I had heard of the 5 lesser known "Gokui"(secret)-kata 5, but I've never heard of the Matsamura-kata until I read it on the site.

I mentioned it to my sensei just an hour ago during practice and he knew of it. It is not practiced in the European Jodo Federation as far as he knew. (Pascal Krieger was never taught the Matsumura no Jo by Shimizu sensei as I understood it.) Regardless I would kill for a chance to see those kata, let alone try em. :) :)

Fred27
23rd March 2006, 20:17
Naw, I'm guessing. I did the same thing that George did, ran "shindomusoryu.com" through WHOIS, it listed the registrant's email (adhenson22@yadayada). Did a google search on adhenson22, got three hits, one of them for a "training journal." You can follow the link, but it's password protected (actually, yesterday when I did this the server was just down). However, google kindly cached an old copy for her, so if you follow the cache link you'll find some old stuff that indicates that the site is probably hers.

C'mon guys, it takes a whole two minutes to do this, and that's if you're goin' slow...

You crazy kids and your hacker-ways..old men like me can't keep up with technology. :p

George Kohler
23rd March 2006, 21:12
I split the thread to "Matsumura no Jo." This will allow for better searching and may get more hits on this subject.

charlesl
23rd March 2006, 22:52
You crazy kids and your hacker-ways..old men like me can't keep up with technology. :p

Don't you be sass'n me none, young'un! I've got almost a decade on ya...

Andrei Arefiev
24th March 2006, 10:14
It is unlikely that it's the same thing as Matsumura-no Jo, but does anyone have any idea (if you've seen it, that is), what is demonstrated by Matsui Kenji-sensei and somebody else at the end of the "Jodo Nyumon" DVD? It looks very interesting and exciting, but I have trouble understanding what is said about it in Japanese.

Fred27
24th March 2006, 20:03
It is unlikely that it's the same thing as Matsumura-no Jo, but does anyone have any idea (if you've seen it, that is), what is demonstrated by Matsui Kenji-sensei and somebody else at the end of the "Jodo Nyumon" DVD? It looks very interesting and exciting, but I have trouble understanding what is said about it in Japanese.

Dunno for sure since I havent got the DVD :(. But isn't that DVD covering the 12 kihon and 12 seitei kata only?

Dave Weider
25th March 2006, 13:34
For what it's worth and (only if your eyes can take it cos the resolution is b-a-d) I'm told there are a few of the Matsumura kata shown somewhere on the DVD's sold by Tru flyte - http://robertg.com/dvdtitles.htm

I was on a course a few years back with Kaminoda Sensei and one of his students showed us two of the Matsumura kata. I think one was called satamage or satsumagi or something like that.

and that's the total sum of my info folks. :)

George Kohler
27th March 2006, 01:10
I think one was called satamage or satsumagi or something like that.


As per the website first mentioned in the first post, the kata of Matsumura no jo are:



Kengatchi

Mikaeri no Shodan

Mikaeri no Nidan

Mikaeri no Sandan

Tachitome

Sumidake

Satsumage

Hotobi

Uchirenkan Sho

Uchirenkan Dai

Kurogami no Kodachi Tsubushi

Kurogami no Kodachi Tsubushi Nidan

Ushiromaki

Kakan

Satokurakomi

Kuragami Zen

Kuragami Go

Yukigumo

Shukenkakugai

Matsukaze

Metsubushi

Hibadoshiku

Mugai Sho

Mugai Dai

Jin

Andrei Arefiev
27th March 2006, 10:57
Dunno for sure since I havent got the DVD :(. But isn't that DVD covering the 12 kihon and 12 seitei kata only?

That's right. BUT, it does have this strange demo at the very end.

Andy Watson
27th March 2006, 11:18
Andrei

If I remember I will have a look tonight.

Andy

Fred27
12th May 2006, 07:55
Andrei

If I remember I will have a look tonight.

Andy

*Shameless bump*

So how did it go? have you checked the DVD yet? :)

Andy Watson
12th May 2006, 13:27
Err not yet. I have two videos, one with chudan and shinto ryu kenjutsu on it but I can't find the other one yet. Will hunt it down and have a look.

Mekugi
15th May 2006, 21:49
Andrea Henson who trains or trained in Nagoya?

When/Where did she train here, does anyone know with who? (I think I remember someone coming to see us one time, the name I've forgotten)...

Steve Delaney
16th May 2006, 00:25
Was she a member of the Aijokai (Aichi-Ken Jodo Kai)?

Mekugi
16th May 2006, 00:53
Was she a member of the Aijokai (Aichi-Ken Jodo Kai)?

Not that I know of. That's not saying much, though. I can always ask and see.

Mekugi
17th May 2006, 04:29
Incidentally, those videos were taken by Hamaji sensei and are part of his large collection. He ran a group studying Japanese military arts a long time ago, he corresponded and sold some 8mm film from his collection to Charles Gruzanski- whom sent him a very large throwing knife in appreciation (one that was advertized in the Tru-Flyte newsletter). As a matter of fact, he is in the SMR jo video that I put up on YouTube, the uchidachi- he is doing the Nagoya Castle Embu. He just had a very painful knee surgery last year and has just recovered from it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpVkgQoeU40

As a side note, here is a demonstration with Kusarigama:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm9FI5ppsyM



For what it's worth and (only if your eyes can take it cos the resolution is b-a-d) I'm told there are a few of the Matsumura kata shown somewhere on the DVD's sold by Tru flyte - http://robertg.com/dvdtitles.htm

I was on a course a few years back with Kaminoda Sensei and one of his students showed us two of the Matsumura kata. I think one was called satamage or satsumagi or something like that.

and that's the total sum of my info folks. :)

SMJodo
18th May 2006, 15:55
When I first came across the shindomusoryu.com web site, I found it though a secondary link from another page. I believe the owner is Chisato Mishima who is a women's fitness champion in Japan and the USA, I beleive. She had her own site dedicated to fitness training which might not exist anymore because I haven't been able to access it. But, I found a bio on her on another site and she lists "Japanese stick fighting" as one of her training methods. So, I'm pretty sure it's her. Anyway, I thought her's was the best SMR site out there to date. It is very close to my own training and answered a lot of my questions - especially the correlation between "modern" ranks to koryu ranks (ie the relationship between Go-Dan and Okuiri Sho).

As far as some of the comments and narrative on the site being negative - I don't see it that way. I think her statements on the present state of SMR are generally accurate, especially to the degree that the art is largely fragmented and has no undisputed leader.

Fred27
18th May 2006, 21:23
I think her statements on the present state of SMR are generally accurate, especially to the degree that the art is largely fragmented and has no undisputed leader.

I believe so to, as I stated in above posts although this "dying" part seems overly dramatic. Anyways, to draw a picture of what I meant with "negative":

If it were me promoting lets say an aikido-style with a website, (and I'm assuming that is one of the main reasons this jodo-site is online), lets say Ki-aikido or Tomiki-aikido. I wouldn't be very prudent if I were to mention the rather some of the more "ugly" details behind the split and the negative implications, or mentioning the controversy over Tomiki-aikido competitions..(It was tomiki that drew criticism for including competitions right?) No! I would instead be as neutral as possible in that regard, simply mentioning that "ki-aikido is not affiliated with Aikika-orgi" or similar, and present the viewer with a brief overall view of the system and let the trainee, if he/she starts to train learn about all the drama and politics eventually. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing the main Aikikai home page doesn't include Tohei and the 1974 split on their site either. Yes straight forward truth is good too, but that doesn't make it aproperiate in every situations, especially not if the agenda is to promote Jodo and not do the opposite.

In this regard I believe this site could afford to be just a little bit more neutral about the negative aspect, and maybe heighten the vision of jodo in the future.

As I said, I know it is true that Jodo is fragmented and doesn't have a single leader, but this is also true of Muso Shinden-ryu, one of the largest Iaido-schools in the world, and numerous other ryu with no single headmaster and with several styles. In fact sometimes a single leader seems problematic if we just observe the number of people claiming headmastership of Eishin-ryu iaido. In general I'm guessing the list of Shihan-disputes in ryu is quite long.

These are just my 2 cents worth of babble though. :)

SMJodo
18th May 2006, 22:03
Yes straight forward truth is good too, but that doesn't make it aproperiate in every situations, especially not if the agenda is to promote Jodo and not do the opposite.

I see what you're saying - but I think the key point you mentioned is "agenda." If her agenda is to promote SMR, then I agree. From a marketing perspective, you're not going to draw much interest in a self-proclaimed "dying art."

However, I didn't view her agenda as "promoting the ryu" rather than simply depicting what it is. I suppose that I assuemd that it was a source of information and reference rather than a promotion. She doesn't state her school, sensei, lineage, or location. I was just happy to see so much information publically available.

One thing about Jodo that I like is that it isn't really self promoting. In other words, I don't know if you're going to necessarily "sell" someone on Jodo. I think it appeals to a certain type of person - one who appreciates it for what it is. I think there are a handful of dedicated and skilled people who are willing to preserve it. I doubt that it will ever go "mainstream" and I don't think that it was her intention to "promote" it per se. That's kind of how I saw it, anyway.

Fred27
19th May 2006, 08:19
Well thats true I guess. I would personally rather see a site along the lines of what I myself believe would be a "proper" site, but as she doesn't seem to promote any kind of organisation perhaps it's less important. Had the site been created by a koryu-scholar with no ties to SMR and presented in cold hard fact then there would have been less questions.

One thing though, the Matsumura no Jo isn't taught in the European Jodo Federation, and I got the hint it isn't actually a part of SMR in any capacity other than on a local Menkyo level. Yet the site says


The daughter of a man named Matsumura, an expert in Bo-jutsu, married the Headmaster (11th or 12th) of Shinto Muso Ryu Jo Jutsu of the Kuroda Clan.

 Matsumura created Matsumura no Jo for his daughter, who was quite short, and could not wield the Bo, long staff. He shortened the length of the Bo, and modified the techniques which evolved into a set of unique kata.

The daughter brought Matsumura no Jo with her when she married into the Kuroda family, and these kata were incorporated into Shinto Muso Ryu Jo Jutsu.



And another thing, correct me if I'm wrong, but this site basically says the 11th or 12th "headmaster" of SMR was a Kuroda family member, as opposed to being a retainer of the Kuroda.

Last but not least:
Does Jodo have techniques to defend against a weaponless body attack?

There is a Ju-jutsu system weakly incorporated within the training curriculum


Again this is the first time I heard of a jujutsu system in the SMR.

Steve Delaney
19th May 2006, 12:47
Last but not least:

Again this is the first time I heard of a jujutsu system in the SMR.

Yes, but what jujutsu ryuha is it?

Fred27
19th May 2006, 13:55
Yes, but what jujutsu ryuha is it?

I got no idea. All i know is what is said in the exact qoute from the website: "
There is a Ju-jutsu system weakly incorporated within the training curriculum"

SMJodo
19th May 2006, 19:59
Actually, this thread is the first time I've heard of Matsumura no Jo. But then again, I learn (or hear) new things all the time. I'm wondering if the Jujutsu that she referred to is linked to the jo techniques related to empty handed attackers or perhaps some of the "police" training related to the Jo? I'll mention it the to my teacher and see if he's heard of it.

Fred27
20th May 2006, 07:36
Actually, this thread is the first time I've heard of Matsumura no Jo. But then again, I learn (or hear) new things all the time. I'm wondering if the Jujutsu that she referred to is linked to the jo techniques related to empty handed attackers or perhaps some of the "police" training related to the Jo? I'll mention it the to my teacher and see if he's heard of it.

I'll ask my sensei as well to about the Jujutsu-part. Maybe it's a Shimizu-created (light) system made for the Police-forces he trained way back and not part of the original ryu? Or as an alternative version, maybe there was a jujutsu system in SMR but was removed for whatever reason, maybe by Shiraishi or Shimizu-sensei or even further back in the line.

Liam Cognet
31st May 2006, 03:35
Have a look in "Other Weapons Systems" then "Kasumi Shinto Ryu Ken Jutsu, Sword". The site doesn’t look very highly on iaido at all. Also, at the risk of drawing unwanted attention, the controversial term "Kasumi" is used.

Andy Watson
1st June 2006, 11:17
I picked up some of the controversy about the Kasumi label on SRK a few years ago but is this still contravertial (however you spell it)?

The story which I, and undouptedly lots of others, read sounded quite well grounded but is this not the common belief now?

I'm not challenging anyone here, I'm just really interested in whether the Kasumi label should be appended or not.

:)

Mekugi
2nd June 2006, 17:25
I'm wondering if the Jujutsu that she referred to is linked to the jo techniques related to empty handed attackers or perhaps some of the "police" training related to the Jo? I'll mention it the to my teacher and see if he's heard of it.

There is something which appears to be hints at grappling in Ikkaku Ryu; there are similar things inside of the jo kata. Then again it could be a reference to Ittatsu Ryu. Or complete rubbish.

-R

Fred27
29th November 2006, 13:06
*necropost*

This might invoke a political response but I'm more curious about this than worried about the response.

According to the shindomusoryu.com (http://www.shindomusoryu.com/trainingcurriculum/extra.htm) site, Kuroda Ichitaro developed a "semi-free-style sparring" in Shinto Muso-ryu. I didnt notice that section first time I browsed that site long ago.


Introduction to Oyugumete

Oyugumete, a type of semi-free-style sparring, was developed in the 20th Century primarily by Kuroda Sensei. There are 26 series of techniques that comprise Oyugumete.
 
Kumete means free sparring. Since no protective gear is worn in Jodo, Oyugumete is the next level below Kumete.

Oyugumete adds the necessary DYNAMIC element to the practice of Jodo. It allows an individual`s skills and knowledge to be put to the test. There is a structure to Oyugymete understood by both Shidachi and Uchidachi. However, within that structure almost anything goes.


Does anyone have a clip somewhere of this semi-sparring? It sounds interesting and I wouldnt mind seeing it.

bushikan
29th November 2006, 15:14
The Shoden katas that are preformed on the web site are very different from Nakayama Hakudo's lineage of Shinto Muso Ryu. I knew that they were different in application and practice but, apparently more so than I thought.