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glad2bhere
24th March 2006, 15:02
Dear Folks:

As always, research continues. Currently I am examining KEISHI-RYU kata for recognizable characteristics also found in traditional Korean sword method.
I was immediately drawn to the use of the "geum-gye dok-lib pal-sang-se" (one-legged posture with sword in high guard position) which is found in the first kata as an evasion to a shallow descending cut to the lower leg. I quickly went checking through various resources I have here and cannot find this method in any of my JSA books. This is all the more curious since the KEISHI-RYU kata were drawn from traditional Japanese arts.

Are there practitioners who use a one-legged stance in their own training who would want to speak to this?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Vile
24th March 2006, 17:47
I have no idea of the purpose of the one legged stance in either of these schools (Kashima Shinden Jikishin Kage ryû is very elusive in its esoteric looking kata to me anyways :) ), but KSJKr and Shojitsu Kenri Kataichi ryû (http://www.koryu.com/photos/shoji1.html) both have one legged stance in their kata.

IIRC both have the stance after a cut: KSJKr practioners lift their leg up to their front (foot about knee high) during a cut sometimes (usually at the end of the kata) and SKKr practioners start with other leg up, like in the picture from koryu.com at the link above, and change their leg during a cut (also usually this seems to be the last cut in their kata).

kenkyusha
24th March 2006, 18:34
Kukishin Ryu and and Itto Ryu (by extension, Muto Ryu) also use similar kamae. I can't speak to any esoteric reasons for it.

Be well,
Jigme

nicojo
24th March 2006, 18:37
There is a one-legged waza in Araki Mujinsai ryu iaido, but I can't really tell you about it since I haven't learned it or anything about it. It is an unusual kata altogether that has this technique.

gmanry
24th March 2006, 20:42
The Bujinkan employs a one-legged kamae, derived from the Kukishin Ryu in its curriculum. It is typically an avoidance of follow through from a cut to tsune. The way I have seen it demonstrated is with the tachi braced to the outside hip/leg, allowing for more stability in deflecting the cut with the blade.
However, the leg is brought up to prevent the ankle being cut if the deflection should fail.

It does make more sense if someone is wearing armor than if somebody is not. If you don't have armor on, you would have a better chance of moving out of the way and just using gedan no kamae of some sort.

Typically I think this is more likely against naginata than against another swordsman, but I could be wrong. With the naginata you have a chance of seeing it before it is too late (unless the person is really precise and has excellent technique).

gendzwil
24th March 2006, 21:19
Typically I think this is more likely against naginata than against another swordsman, but I could be wrong. With the naginata you have a chance of seeing it before it is too late (unless the person is really precise and has excellent technique).I know that in isshu-jiai with kendo vs atarashi naginata, sune-nuki-men is pretty common. Just lift your foot up and let the naginata pass underneath, attack the resulting open men. Not really a kamae though, just a transition.

hyaku
25th March 2006, 01:57
There is waza in the Kageryu called Sagi-ashi (heron leg).

In fundamentals lifting the leg high and tucking the knees high and upwards can assist in powering up a draw to a guard position from tate-hiza. Likewise a changing of the legs in a scissor like action powers a downward cut especially if Yoroi is worn.

I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.

glad2bhere
25th March 2006, 04:03
In our usage the one-legged stance can either be defensive (evasion) or offensive (to add power to a cut or thrust). I had become used to seeing the stance accomplished with a follow-up cut. However, in the kata that I am examining I was surprised that the follow-up was a straight thrust to the head. Not an easy target for a thrust, that.

BTW: I am checking around to find that list of arts that contributed to these forms. I know its around somewhere in this mess. :rolleyes:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

gmanry
25th March 2006, 05:41
I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.

I think that this is best. :) It may not always be possible though if you have lost control of the maai.


I know that in isshu-jiai with kendo vs atarashi naginata, sune-nuki-men is pretty common. Just lift your foot up and let the naginata pass underneath, attack the resulting open men. Not really a kamae though, just a transition.

From what I have seen in my Ryoen Ryu Naginatajutsu training (which could completely fill a whole thimble mind you) the cuts to tsune don't really "pass through." They are not power cuts, but are more like precision slices that hook upwards under the tsune of the yoroi. Which means if you try to enter, you may cut yourself if your angling isn't just so. That gets back to the move the whole body mentioned above. Move, lift leg, take advantageous angle if foot is still attached.


Not really a kamae though, just a transition.
I see your point. However, from the perspective I have been taught, there really are no "kamae," it is really all just transition. Not that I can do that yet, of course. I just repeat it to myself so I can feel wise...;)

hyaku
25th March 2006, 08:48
I don't do leg avoidance. In our cuts up into the groin it is necessary to move "everything" out of the way.


I think that this is best. :) It may not always be possible though if you have lost control of the maai.

With a 3.8 I have no problem with ma-ai. The other guy with a 2.3 does.

Bruce ours is transitional too.

glad2bhere
25th March 2006, 14:49
".........
The police forms called Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata were developed in 1886 by the swordsmen assigned to instruct the forces the following swordsmen were instructors during these years.

Okumura Sakonda and Tokino Seikishiro (Jikishinkage Ryu)

Ueda Umanosuke (Kyoshin Meichi Ryu)

Neigishi Shingoro, Shibae Umpachiro, and
Watanabe Noboru (Shindo Munen Ryu)

Matsuzaki Namishiro (Shinkage Ryu)

Shingai Tadatsu (Tamiya Ryu)

Takao Tesso ( Tetchu Ryu)

Mitsuhashi Kan’ichiro (Togun Ryu)

The result was the 10 kumitachi forms. In addition, Keishicho-ryu also developed five Iaido forms whose material proceeds from the following disciplines.

1.) Maegoshi (Asayama Ichiden Ryu)
2.) Musogaeshi (Shindo Munen Ryu)
3.) Mawarinuki (Tamiya Ryu)
4.) Migi no Teki (Kyoshin Meichi Ryu)
5.) Shiho (Tatsumi Ryu)
....................................................................."

I furnish this information only to help frame the contributions of others and apologize that over the years I have lost track of the original authorship of this material. Certainly I must report that this information did not originate with me. However, if anyone recognizes the syntax perhaps it would be helpful to share the suspected authorship, yes?

BTW: I know I opened this thread about the One-legged Stance however a second observation come to mind in a related sense.

I feel safe in assuming that JSA have a "short (so do se) stance" or "descended stance" most often seen in KSA as dropping below an attack to deliver a "ho ri begi" or mid-section cut. The hallmark I note is that sometimes the knee touches (grounded) and sometimes it does not (about a fist-width off the ground). I have been researching to identify if KSA regard these as variants of the same posture or separate/individual postures, each in its own right. Do the JSA regard these as one in the same or different? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

gmanry
25th March 2006, 17:14
With a 3.8 I have no problem with ma-ai. The other guy with a 2.3 does.

LOL, I forgot that you use an I-beam for a sword. For us lesser mortals, then. ;) I also understand that if you have lost control of ma-ai then you are more than likely going to be dead against a skilled opponent, but there is always the desperate effort and luck.

FastEd
25th March 2006, 19:25
Hey Bruce,
I take it the one leg stance is in the Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata, and not the Keshi Ryu Iai Kata (at least they way I practiced it)? Do you video or refereance material for the gekkan kata?

cheers
Ed

gendzwil
25th March 2006, 19:29
However, from the perspective I have been taught, there really are no "kamae," it is really all just transition.Really? I mean, I understand the concept of being fluid and all that jazz, but when you see two people standing with swords waist level aimed at each other's eyes, looking for some opening... well, that's chudan (in kendo terms). If you see someone standing there with their tsuba next to their ear, that's hasso. Now if they attack katsugi-men, then we can say a brief transition to hasso from chudan. But in my book, if you stay in roughly the same position for an appreciable length of time, prepared to attack or defend from that position, then it's a kamae.

glad2bhere
25th March 2006, 21:47
Hey Bruce,
I take it the one leg stance is in the Keishicho Ryu Gekkan Kata, and not the Keshi Ryu Iai Kata (at least they way I practiced it)? Do you video or refereance material for the gekkan kata?

cheers
Ed


You are correct on all counts. The One-legged stance is only in the first 2-person kata. I don't think I have seen it in any of the other 9 kata. I have not seen the Iai kata.

The material I have is a copy of an article from a Japanese magazine of some years ago. Wish I could find a name and date on it. I know I am not giving much to go on.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
25th March 2006, 21:55
Really? I mean, I understand the concept of being fluid and all that jazz, but when you see two people standing with swords waist level aimed at each other's eyes, looking for some opening... well, that's chudan (in kendo terms). If you see someone standing there with their tsuba next to their ear, that's hasso. Now if they attack katsugi-men, then we can say a brief transition to hasso from chudan. But in my book, if you stay in roughly the same position for an appreciable length of time, prepared to attack or defend from that position, then it's a kamae.

Dear Neil:

I take a slightly different tack on that point. As I examine material I notice that at the beginning and at the end of each technique the sword is very much in an identifiable posture. In this way one can view postures as the beginning and/or the end of each technique. However, I take it a step farther and view each posture as the doorway to the next technique. In this manner a person in middle guard position will raise their sword and execute a full straight descending cut only to find that they are now in ha dan se (low guard position). This, then is the doorway (of sorts) to the next technique-- probably a low parry, or hanging parry into a steep ascending cut. When THAT cut is accomplished a person is now in Superior Guard position and the next problem to be solved is how to attack from THAT posture. Anyhow, thats the way I pull it together. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

gmanry
26th March 2006, 03:59
Really? I mean, I understand the concept of being fluid and all that jazz, but when you see two people standing with swords waist level aimed at each other's eyes, looking for some opening... well, that's chudan (in kendo terms).

And you would be right. There are, of course, kamae when you move, there is good structure and bad structure. Let me see if I can clarify what I meant.

You pointed to the example of lifting the leg and saying that is not really kamae. For us it is hicho no kamae (bird on a rock). One would not move the leg haphazardly, one would do it in a way that worked with correct structure, timing and distance, and that (as far as I know) is the definition of kamae. To not do so would probably quickly lead to death in a confrontation with swords.

If I stood with my feet parallel, knees bent, hips in alignment and pointed my kisaki at your eyes with intent, then is that chudan? Is it shizen (natural posture)? Is it the physically outward position or the intent behind it that is most important? I would argue it is chudan (variation), as the intent is to hold off the opponent. We could assign it a new name, but why do so? It's effect is so similar to chudan.

Now, I said there are no kamae. Perhaps that is an over statement. Kamae begin to blend and become dependent on the intent of the individual just as much as the physical position. As a person becomes more skilled the apparent presence of formal kamae will become diminished. One should not worry about one's kamae at this level, but should simply react. To the outside observer the kamae seems non-existent, but if you freeze it on video you can see the kamae are "there," they just aren't apparent in the way we think of kamae in formal waza. You can see this in tai chi, aikido, jujutsu, and other arts.

I don't know much about kendo other than what I have seen on video. However, I notice that even when players are "in kamae." They are constantly moving, testing maai, moving the kisaki, etc. In essence the kamae is always changing in small ways and is never the same, but it is generally recognizable at any one moment. They are never really in one kamae, but many iterations centering around a particular kamae. Sort of like the platonic ideal on the cave wall.

When I watch Hatsumi sensei move he just seems to walk and moves naturally, unless he is being very formal or pointing out something for those who aren't getting it. Yet, if I stop a video of him, his kamae is evident in that frame, but it disappears in the blur of motion when I play the video. (PS, I know there are Bujinkan non-fans here, so please, can we keep this on the subject of kamae for now, I also study MJER and realize why some have their problems with the Bujinkan).

So, there is kamae. There is always kamae. Maybe I should say that KAMAE disappears in that grand sense of the ideal text book posture defined for those new to the art and for obvious and grand demonstration.

Miyamoto Musashi said that your everyday walk should be your warrior's walk (paraphrasing). Now, I am sure that there are many layers to that statement, and perhaps Hyakute sensei could speak to that for us, but it also says to me that you movement should be natural and devoid of artificial affectations. In essence kamae without KAMAE.

So, that is my shot at clarifying that. It is something that could probably fill a volume of work though, and I am NOT the one to write it. So, tear my flesh from my bones gingerly in your rebuttals, guys.

carl mcclafferty
26th March 2006, 14:45
Folks

We use tobichigai as a leg avoidance/to power cut in SGR. Not a bad idea when facing a I-Beam. :) :) We move our whole body out of the way otherwise. I saw the kumdo cutting demo in Sakai in the mid-90s. The one legged kamae looked like a tall, upright Chinese crane stance, they spun around in it, have never seen any thing like it in JSA.

Yamada Sensei's Grandfather was the police chief in Kanai City, he taught Jikishinkage Ryu. Yamada Sensei trained with him in the 50s, (had to train with him). He says that there were only kumitachi with bokuto because of a ban on swords, He does not remember any that had a leg up kamae. He said its possible that someone re-generated the sword kata and they have such a kamae but he never saw it himself. He said he knew he was late for class and in trouble when he could hear the Jikishinkage kiai echoing around the neighborhood.

Glenn I agee that in kata most kamae are transitional, but that's from only studying SGR and Nakamura Ryu.

Lived in the southwest most of my life. Most of the cowboys have a scot/irish background, just tell them its a Japanese kilt. Though most of them won,t say much to a guy in a dress with a sword in his hand. :)

Carl McClafferty

gmanry
27th March 2006, 16:47
I just caught my mispelling of Hyakutake Colin's name in my previous post, my apologies. Fat fingered it badly.

gendzwil
27th March 2006, 20:59
I don't know much about kendo other than what I have seen on video. However, I notice that even when players are "in kamae." They are constantly moving, testing maai, moving the kisaki, etc. Of course. If that's what you mean, then I agree. I guess some people think of kamae as this frozen pose or something. You could argue that the difference between tip adjustments in chudan and moving into gedan is only a matter of degree. But I think this is one of those things in which, although there are gray areas, it's pretty obvious when the base kamae has changed. In kendo, you can fight from a variety of kamae. But most people specialise, the vast majority choosing chudan and some small percentage choosing jodan or more rarely nito. If your primary kamae is chudan, you must train for that and understand how to create opportunity and attack from that kamae. If you elect to be a jodan specialist, usually done after some years of chudan, it is advised to train entirely from jodan so that you can understand that kamae. It is not all the same, and not transitional. However, many chudan players can assume jodan temporarily to deliver, for example, a single-handed attack. Or assume hasso to deliver katsugi-waza. These are transitional cases, and clearly different from fighting from the base kamae.

glad2bhere
30th March 2006, 16:02
For myself the single most difficult challenge is continually polishing my attacks such that they are made with the single smallest opportunity ("hole") for my opponent to exploit. I truely believe that this more studied/reflective approach to such minute detail is what draws me to Kum-Bup over Kumdo. Of course, there are also the limitations regarding targets and techniques and the whole accruing points part that I have no use for. Does anyone else have thoughts along these lines? I suppose for Japanese traditions what I am asking about is the comparison between Kendo and Ken-jutsu, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

YagyuJubei
30th March 2006, 16:52
The first kata of Keishi-ryu com from Jikishinkage-ryu. Jikishinkage-Ryu use one leg a lot. Itto Shoden Muto Ryu also use one leg. I think because Yamaoka Tesshu also studied Jikishinkage-Ryu.

Kendoguy9
30th March 2006, 17:22
Hello all,

Does anyone have any photos of Keishi-ryu kenjutsu kata? I'd be very curious to see the first kata (from Jikishinkage-ryu?).

Have a great day!

glad2bhere
30th March 2006, 17:56
I received an inquiry from another person asking about the resource I was using and was successful in attaching the files to an e-mail and sending it to that person. I would be willing to do this again if you have an address that you would want me to use. PM me if that is more comfortable for you. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

YagyuJubei
30th March 2006, 18:03
I also have some resource and already tried to send to you by e-mail, but your e-mail address, as report in your profile, don't seem to work.

glad2bhere
30th March 2006, 19:19
I also have some resource and already tried to send to you by e-mail, but your e-mail address, as report in your profile, don't seem to work.

Double-checked my e-mail and thats a good address in the profile.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

YagyuJubei
30th March 2006, 20:29
Double-checked my e-mail and thats a good address in the profile.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Sorry, I mean kendoguy9's address.

glad2bhere
30th March 2006, 21:28
R.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

R A Sosnowski
31st March 2006, 15:59
Having look at Bruce's source material (Thank you, Bruce), I see a Nuki Waza (avoidance technique) rather than a one-leg Kamae in Ipponme.

Sune-uchi (shin cut) is rare in JSA, at least IME. Off hand, I cannot recall seeing it used in any standing sets, although it does crop up in kneeling sets (Shinkage Ryu and Mugai Ryu come to mind).

The set-up here is obvious (at least to me :D) - Uchitachi in Hasso Gamae and Shidachi in deep and low Waki Gamae. For Shidachi to attack with Sune-uchi (in this case, Kesa-giri to a low target) is logical as the shin is the closest target. Shidachi uses a Nuki Waza to avoid being cut and counters.

For those who have done Atarashii Naginata or a style of Naginata-jutsu such as Tendo Ryu, Sune-uchi is no-big-deal. You take your "sword-on-a-pole" and amputate Teki's offending appendage. :D

In fact, a similar Nuki Waza is contained in Yonhonme of Shikake-Oogi from Atarashii Naginata.

HTH,

Ron Tisdale
31st March 2006, 17:00
I see you mentioned attacks to the shin...could someone speak to attacks to the knee? Doshinkan aikido has a kata (hizaguri tsuki?) where uke attacks the knee and shite pulls the leg up and back, then thrusts to the throat with kisaki. Any thoughts appreciated...
Best,
Ron

R A Sosnowski
31st March 2006, 17:53
I see you mentioned attacks to the shin...could someone speak to attacks to the knee? Doshinkan aikido has a kata (hizaguri tsuki?) where uke attacks the knee and shite pulls the leg up and back, then thrusts to the throat with kisaki. Any thoughts appreciated...
Best,
Ron
In Mugai Ryu, there is a Kodachi vs. Kodachi Kumikata from Seiza in which Shidachi's counter-attack includes a cut just behind the knee to severe the tendons.

I imagine that you can achieve the same effect from standing with an Odachi cutting to behind the knee or to the shin - destroy Teki's support. If Teki cannot stand, the encounter is all but over.

HTH,

Jeremy Hulley
31st March 2006, 20:08
I n Shinto Ryu we practice cuts to the back of the knee as part of warm ups but we do not use them in any kata that I know of.
Best
Jeremy

Kendoguy9
31st March 2006, 20:30
Hello all,

<<Sune-uchi (shin cut) is rare in JSA, at least IME. Off hand, I cannot recall seeing it used in any standing sets, although it does crop up in kneeling sets (Shinkage Ryu and Mugai Ryu come to mind). >>

From what I have seen cuts to the knee, shin, and back of the leg are fairly common in Shinkage arts. I have seen them while watching Yagyu Shinkage-ryu many times. They are also in Jikishinkage-ryu, too. My understanding is that the knee is a good target while fighting in armour because there is no plate there to protect it. I'm sure with a naginata the cuts to the leg are even better!

glad2bhere
31st March 2006, 22:25
Dear Raymond:

I think I am following what you said, but only because I have the article in front of me. In Kom-Bop we also use the one-legged stance for evasion. We also use it to propound a technique so as to contribute greater energy to the strike or thrust. Generally( very) the rule-of-thumb is that an evasion can be recognized as having the bottom of the foot perpendicular to the floor and usually close to the knee. By comparison, the same maneuver intended to impart greater energy to an attack finds the bottom of the foot parallel to the floor. Can you say how you determined the posture in the article to be evasive? Is there something of the same distinction in JSA? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

glad2bhere
31st March 2006, 22:35
Dear Ron:

I have experienced a rather odd, almost schizophrenic, approach to cuts such as the ones you mention in Kum-Bup. While our hyung (J. Kata) have some pretty nasty techniques, almost invariably these go un-recognized in the typical course of instruction. Even on those occasions when I have identified the specific technique in some resource, the response from my sword master is most often akin to "we don't do that" or "thats not done like that any more".

Certainly I attribute this to the fact that Kumdo and not Kum-Bup is the real meat-&-potatoes of our kwan. An old fart like me off in the corner playing by myself is more a curiousity than anything else. The other matter is that even here in the States, and a century later, the Confucian aversion to violence and blood-letting is still a very real influence. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

R A Sosnowski
2nd April 2006, 02:48
Hello all,

<<Sune-uchi (shin cut) is rare in JSA, at least IME. Off hand, I cannot recall seeing it used in any standing sets, although it does crop up in kneeling sets (Shinkage Ryu and Mugai Ryu come to mind). >>

From what I have seen cuts to the knee, shin, and back of the leg are fairly common in Shinkage arts. I have seen them while watching Yagyu Shinkage-ryu many times. They are also in Jikishinkage-ryu, too. My understanding is that the knee is a good target while fighting in armour because there is no plate there to protect it. I'm sure with a naginata the cuts to the leg are even better!
Interesting. I do not have much contact with YSR and JSR folks. Cannot study them all <SIGH>.

R A Sosnowski
2nd April 2006, 03:24
Dear Raymond:

I think I am following what you said, but only because I have the article in front of me. In Kom-Bop we also use the one-legged stance for evasion. We also use it to propound a technique so as to contribute greater energy to the strike or thrust. Generally( very) the rule-of-thumb is that an evasion can be recognized as having the bottom of the foot perpendicular to the floor and usually close to the knee. By comparison, the same maneuver intended to impart greater energy to an attack finds the bottom of the foot parallel to the floor. Can you say how you determined the posture in the article to be evasive? Is there something of the same distinction in JSA? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

Bruce,

With the article in from of me, let me construct my analysis (got the start sequence out of order in the prior post, but the conclusion is the same).

Pic. 05: Ai-Chidan.
Pic. 06: Shidachi begins to assume Jodan (without apparently moving). Uchitachi assumes RHS (right hand side) Hasso (also without apparently moving).
Pic. 07: Uchitachi begins Sune-uchi (Kesa-giri to the shin). Shidachi finishes assuming Jodan while raising the leg to avoid the shin cut.
Pick. 08: Uchidachi completes the cut. Shidachi still has his leg up, but has brought the sword down to a defensive position (may have been a Kote Uchi that comes up short - cannot really tell without translating the Japanese or seeing some video footage).
Pic. 9: Shidachi puts his foot down and forward, taking up Chudan with what appears to be a thrusting motion to threaten Uchitachi (Kissaki at Uchitachi's throat).
Pic. 10: Shidachi steps forward to keep Seme on Uchitachi. Uchitachi steps back with his blade retired.


In Pix 7 & 8, I see no reason for Shidachi to pick up his leg except to avoid the attack. If Shidachi does not pick the leg up, Uchitachi will cut it because that is what Uchitachi is targeting.

HTH,