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ScottUK
3rd April 2006, 13:01
Hiya all,

Does anyone know about the jo techniques used by Japanese police? Is the jo used to restrain or incapacitate felons? The only jo I have witnessed is the more destructive strikes and blows used in jodo/jojutsu.

Cheers,

Scott

RobertRousselot
3rd April 2006, 13:42
Hiya all,

Does anyone know about the jo techniques used by Japanese police? Is the jo used to restrain or incapacitate felons? The only jo I have witnessed is the more destructive strikes and blows used in jodo/jojutsu.

Cheers,

Scott



If I am not mistaken the the Japanese "Boys in Blue" study/studied Shinto Muso Ryu Jo.
There are a couple of folks on E-Budo you will want to PM or email with this question.

1) Meik Skoss
2) Steve Delany

Fred27
3rd April 2006, 13:49
If I am not mistaken the the Japanese "Boys in Blue" study/studied Shinto Muso Ryu Jo.


I think so to. I think it was Shimizu Takaji (among others of his generation) that taught a modified version of jodo in Tokyo police-dojos more suited for police duties.

Mark Murray
3rd April 2006, 14:51
If I am not mistaken the the Japanese "Boys in Blue" study/studied Shinto Muso Ryu Jo.
There are a couple of folks on E-Budo you will want to PM or email with this question.

1) Meik Skoss
2) Steve Delany

You lost me here. Why do we need to PM? Is this some secret that can't be answered here in the forum? I'm actually interested in this answer, too.

Thanks,

Mark Murray
3rd April 2006, 15:11
Just a few relevant articles:

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/Muso.html

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=18

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/dlowry11.html

Do the Japanese police still study jodo or do they study a modified version in keijojutsu? Or do they study both?

Thanks,

RobertRousselot
3rd April 2006, 15:19
You lost me here. Why do we need to PM? Is this some secret that can't be answered here in the forum? I'm actually interested in this answer, too.

Thanks,


So that they know this thread is here.........or can they some how sense it's presence? :rolleyes:

Fred27
3rd April 2006, 15:28
Just a few relevant articles:

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/Muso.html

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=18

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/dlowry11.html

Do the Japanese police still study jodo or do they study a modified version in keijojutsu? Or do they study both?

Thanks,

Hm..I can't qoute any sources, but I have a tiny fragment of memory that says the jo has slowly gone out of style ever since the war and is being replaced by more modern weapons & techniques. Not sure if it applies to riot-police though.

RobertRousselot
3rd April 2006, 15:31
Hm..I can't qoute any sources, but I have a tiny fragment of memory that says the jo has slowly gone out of style ever since the war and is being replaced by more modern weapons & techniques. Not sure if it applies to riot-police though.


Nope, not really. Most of your local Cops here (as far as I have seen) still have a jo while on duty at a koban and the Riot Police I know still train in it, among toehr things, as part of their job.

Fred27
3rd April 2006, 16:03
Nope, not really. Most of your local Cops here (as far as I have seen) still have a jo while on duty at a koban and the Riot Police I know still train in it, among toehr things, as part of their job.

Ah oki, my bad then. I can't remember where I heard of it, but the above mentioned was the impression I got. :)

ScottUK
3rd April 2006, 19:35
Yep, Robert is spot-on. Every cop I saw had a piddly little gun and a chuffin' big stick.

Just can't imagine them applying restraint with a jo - just a good beating...

Fred27
3rd April 2006, 20:15
Yep, Robert is spot-on. Every cop I saw had a piddly little gun and a chuffin' big stick.

Just can't imagine them applying restraint with a jo - just a good beating...

My (former) aikido-sensei showed me a few moves to restrain a suspect with a jo...or rather he demonstrated it on me. Quite effective actually! I had a pain in my shoulder for 2 days afterwards. :P

Andrew S
3rd April 2006, 21:29
I believe a number of officers (if not all of them) undergo training in taihojutsu, which incorporates techniques from jodo, aikido, kendo and Wado Ryu karate. The weapons they train with include the baton and jo.

RobertRousselot
3rd April 2006, 23:45
I believe a number of officers (if not all of them) undergo training in taihojutsu, which incorporates techniques from jodo, aikido, kendo and Wado Ryu karate. The weapons they train with include the baton and jo.


Japanese cops usually train in all or some of the following: Kendo, Aikido, Judo, and Jo.
Several years ago I was invited to watch the local police station put on a martial arts demo. Among the above mentioned I saw them do some sort of "art" that included punching and kicking but I wouldn't really call it "karate".

bert sijben
4th April 2006, 03:31
Hiya all,

Does anyone know about the jo techniques used by Japanese police? Is the jo used to restrain or incapacitate felons? The only jo I have witnessed is the more destructive strikes and blows used in jodo/jojutsu.

Cheers,

Scott
Dear Scott

There are no fellons. The jo is not used. what we feel is what we are just watch and learn, if you are willing to die, then contact me.

sincerely yours Bert Sijben.

RobertRousselot
4th April 2006, 03:33
Dear Scott

There are no fellons. The jo is not used. what we feel is what we are just watch and learn, if you are willing to die, then contact me.

sincerely yours Bert Sijben.


what the heck are you trying to say??

Fred27
4th April 2006, 06:03
what the heck are you trying to say??

Beats me. Too poetic and diffuse for my taste.

Ron Beaubien
4th April 2006, 13:11
Hello,

One of my students was a high level detective with the Tokyo Police Department. When I taught him, hadn't worn a uniform in many years, and his main duty at the time was to study English, which he did at least four hours a day instead of other police duties. He was later sent to the Japanese embassy in Thailand as the official Japanese police representative. Given his status, I think he must have been pretty knowledgeable about the Japanese police department.

I had often read about Shimizu sensei and others teaching the jo to the police and so I specifically asked my student about their training with it. He said that the training he had received was quite basic. Specifically, he mentioned that if some one has a weapon such as a knife that they were trained to just hold the jo on one end and use the other end to knock it out of the suspect's hand before arresting him. That was it.

Despite being a student of English, he had no trouble expressing himself and we spent lots of time together, so there was nothing holding him back. I asked about other uses, but he said that the jo was still used but they had very little training in it. He also did not know of anyone in the police department actively teaching it full time.

Their training with the jo may indeed be more in depth than I was told, the old days aside, I haven't heard much about their training recently to contradict what the detective told me.

I have observed some of the Tokyo Riot Police training in aikido at the Yoshinkan Headquarters. Police training in kendo and judo is also well-known. We even had one of them training at my naginata dojo for a while. In a similar fashion, that police officer mentioned pretty much the same thing, that he had not received any real training on how to deal with longer weapons from the police department and so he was interested in training with us.

Although not totally useless for them, I get the impression that the police department sees training in the martial arts is seen as being more beneficial for strengthening the spirit, rather than for strict functional application.

Although Japanese policemen can often be seen standing at Narita Airport and in front of police boxes around town with a jo in hand, it appears that jo are primarily used nowadays as something to lean on to take some of the weight off their feet while standing guard.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

ScottUK
4th April 2006, 13:18
it appears that jo are primarily used nowadays as something to lean on to take some of the weight off their feet while standing guard. Yep, that was the 'kamae' I saw too... :)

Andy Watson
4th April 2006, 13:39
No no no - they are ready to commence "Tsukizue" - omote or kage, you just don't know what those craaazy cops are gonna do!

ScottUK
4th April 2006, 13:49
I didn't realise the tazer was up there with kusarigama, hojo and tanjo... :D

Steve Delaney
4th April 2006, 15:43
I didn't realise the tazer was up there with kusarigama, hojo and tanjo... :D


Not to mention .32 calibre S&W

Fred27
4th April 2006, 20:26
You guys are silly I love it! :p :p

On a side-note, does the south-korean riot police use a staff as well? I have a small (mental) image of them in action.

bert sijben
6th April 2006, 07:12
The truth is more easy, the jo or tanjo is not used. Simply because it is not a weapon capable against a gun. Therefore it is used as an object of authority if
the fellon waits to be attacked with a jo then it would be a mystery to me, what are we thinking of the modern day fellon that they are unbelievable stupid, i do not think so. A fellon with a pocket knife, yeah sure.
The other things what you can do with a jo, i have seen it, is drag it behind you, lean on it, or do some things i have not seen.
If the japanese police are using the jo then it is for other reasons than restraining fellons, besides there are some people able to use the jo in every situation,but confined spaces is an other matter, the ceiling is too low in japan.

best regards bert sijben

Brian Owens
6th April 2006, 07:56
...what are we thinking of the modern day fellon that they are unbelievable stupid, i do not think so....
As a former policeman, let me say that I have met more than a few unbelievably stupid felons, and only a few smart ones. The smart ones usually manage to avoid legal entanglements to a large degree.


The truth is more easy, the jo or tanjo is not used. Simply because it is not a weapon capable against a gun.
I can't speak for Japanese police, but I can say with 100% certainty that at least one American policeman -- yours truly -- carried a chemical spray, a handgun, a baton, an automatic rifle, and/or other "tools of the trade" as needed depending on the situation.

That same policeman has used a baton against a felon, so your logic (or lack thereof) doesn't fly.

Are you involved with the Japanese police? If not, what is your source that gives you information that the jo and tanjo (and by association the keibo) are "not used"?

bert sijben
7th April 2006, 00:24
Hello Brian,

Do you mean you hit the fellow with your baton?

Bert Sijben

Aden
7th April 2006, 01:22
At a seitei jodo seminar a few years ago we were taught that kata 2 and 4 came from police jo - so I have always assumed that they (the police) have their own formal curriculum - though since the seitei names are the same as 2 of the Uchida Ryu tanjo curriculum I also wondered if there was some relationship there but I have never seen any information on it in English.....

Back when I was doing kendo at a Tokyo police dojo for a short time I used to go past a man with a jo every morning and never thought to ask. Aikido, restraining people and jo happened later in the day, Kendo was 6.30 am, so I never saw the other practice - except once when they were doing what I thought of as 'how to break up nonviolent protester practice' on each other in special preparation for some event.

Aden
wants to know more about police jo.

George Kohler
7th April 2006, 03:54
Hello Brian,

Do you mean you hit the fellow with your baton?

Bert Sijben

Bert,

Yes, there are several locations that a Law Enforcement Officer can strike with a baton.

Brian Owens
7th April 2006, 04:10
Hello Brian,

Do you mean you hit the fellow with your baton?
Yes.

On one occasion a fleeing subject was trying to escape on a motorcycle, and I was on foot. I shoved my baton into the spokes of his front wheel, stopping his flight.

On another occasion a perp was resisting arrest by brandishing a tire iron. I would have been legally justified in shooting him, but chose instead to spray him in the face with Mace and then knock the tire iron from his grasp with my baton. (Actually, it might have been an aluminum Stream-Light flashlight; I don't recall specifically. I sometimes carried one and sometimes the other.)

Not all criminals carry guns, despite what one might see on TV and movies.

Tony Peters
13th April 2006, 19:11
the Jo seem to be a sybol of authority more than a weapon now. Most of the officers I knew in Yokosuka who carried a jo had reflective tape on it which was great for directing traffic. That said drunk sailors are stupid and on occasion same said officers did use the Jo for restraint...A jo laced through handcuffed wrists makes a beligerant sailor quite easy to direct amoung other things and any "damage" the sailor got while fighting a japanese cop was not a problem for us. Now if I had used my baton on him in the same manner? I'd still be doing paperwork a year later. Longs nights spent with a japanese counterpart in the Honch we compared techniques and at least the ones I talked to did get SMR like training though my Japaneses wasn't fluent enough to folow up on how much

Andrew S
14th August 2006, 23:19
Just recently there has been talk of "gangs" of car hoons (for want of a better expression) coming to Tokorozawa to disrupt some politician's campaign against them.
Anyway, apart from essentially boarding up all the entrances to the venue, and the bus loads of riot police on standby, there has been a noticable presence of officers carrying jo (keijo). around the venue, council office and mayor's residence.
Since they are expecting trouble of some sorts, I doubt they'd be sending officers out with ineffective weapons.

Fred27
15th August 2006, 06:42
appears that jo are primarily used nowadays as something to lean on to take some of the weight off their feet while standing guard.

Hehe, an image just flashed by me of a sleepy Ashigaru in the 17th century leaning against his jo half-asleep during his nighttime guard-shift. :p

FastEd
15th August 2006, 17:40
I have heard that the keijo is slightly different then the standard SMR jo, being slightly thicker.

Keikai
16th August 2006, 02:39
Hiya all,

Does anyone know about the jo techniques used by Japanese police? Is the jo used to restrain or incapacitate felons? The only jo I have witnessed is the more destructive strikes and blows used in jodo/jojutsu.

Cheers,

Scott


The short answer to your question is perhaps. The Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutus has a set of techniques in which the jo is used to catch and lock or throw the attacker. We do not use it for striking at all pretty much.

We also train techniques with the keibo (keijo) - about 22" long which, our sensei told us, were originally police techniques. These we refer to as Tobitanbo (Jumping Stick) techniques. The stick is held downwards along the leg and as a person punches the stick is flicked up to hit the inside of the wrist or elbow, locks or strangles are then done from this position. The hanbo is used in a similar manner but some of the jo techniques are possible with the hanbo. We generally never strike with any of the sticks we use - tanbo, hanbo, keibo and jo. I was shown one or two locking techniques with the yawara stick but our sensei passed away before he taught them to us.

Whether or not these techniques are taught or used by Japanese police I don't know. Apparently the ones we learnt were used by the equivilant of the police in the past.

Hope this answers your question about the possibility of locks etc being done with sticks of various lengths.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

K. Cantwell
22nd August 2006, 20:41
Hello Scott,

Donn Draeger has a bit to say about this subject in Modern Bujutsu & Budo (Volume Three of The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan).

For example, on p. 69:


Keijo-jutsu is based on the classical martial art of jojutsu, specifically teachings that stem from the seventeenth-century Shindo Muso Ryu. The defensive rationale of classical jojutsu applies equally well to keijo-jutsu.

Also from the same page:


Techniques of keijo-jutsu can be applied with the intention either of causing enough pain in an aggressor to discourage him from further action, or of using sufficient force to break bones and contuse tissues and then to incapacitate him.

There is also a picture on p. 86 of Kaminoda Tsunemori striking an assailant’s upper arm with what looks to be the same strike as from shamen . He is not striking the head, as in the kata, but rather the arm to incapacitate, rather than kill. So, part of the police training may be to simply change the classical targeting to make it less lethal.

Hope this helps.

Kevin Cantwell

renfield_kuroda
23rd August 2006, 06:30
I was under the impression that the big split between Fukuoka (old school) and Tokyo (new school) Jo was that when Kaminoda-sensei came up to Tokyo to teach Jo at the police academy, he 'dumbed down' some of the harsher koryu techniques b/c they were too hard and/or destructive to teach in a short time to the police.
Then again this may be more folklore than fact. And I doubt many of the cops these days even know how to use that big stick they lean on when standing duty in front of the police station anyway.

Regards,

r e n

ScottUK
23rd August 2006, 09:19
Cheers Kevin, I'll have a read when I get home tonight...

Eric Montes
23rd August 2006, 17:08
Ren,
Shimizu Takaji Sensei was primarily responsible for bringing SMR to Tokyo. Kaminoda Sensei was one of his first students.

"Dumbing down" might be a little inaccurate. Concessions were made in order to teach large groups of people. SMR had only been taught 1 on 1, or in small groups previously.

Fred27
23rd August 2006, 17:47
Ren,
Shimizu Takaji Sensei was primarily responsible for bringing SMR to Tokyo. Kaminoda Sensei was one of his first students.

"Dumbing down" might be a little inaccurate. Concessions were made in order to teach large groups of people. SMR had only been taught 1 on 1, or in small groups previously.

Well..If I remember correctly, Shimizu sensei taught Jodo to soldiers in Manchuria as well in the 30's..That was more groups of 100 rather than 1 on 1.

Woody
23rd August 2006, 19:27
the Jo seem to be a sybol of authority more than a weapon now. Most of the officers I knew in Yokosuka who carried a jo had reflective tape on it which was great for directing traffic.
I have seen the Japanese police whack cars with those reflective jo's for driving in the bus lane during unauthorized times of the day.

don
23rd August 2006, 19:44
I doubt many of the cops these days even know how to use that big stick they lean on when standing duty in front of the police station anyway.I attended a police dept. MA demo once which featured JO against some other weapon, don't recall which. Do recall everybody in the place breaking into spontaneous guffaws when the two went at it. No training was evident to me.

wreddock
23rd August 2006, 19:49
The police are taught use the Jo in one of the most effective crowd control techniques I ever seen.

If warnings to disperse are ignored about 20 blue dungaree clad officers will simply stroll through the crowd banging the end of the jo down on the feet of the unruly mob.

Generally takes about 20 seconds to subdue just about any size group. Especially effective in Japan's summer when mot people are wearing open toed sandals. :)

Saw this just last week at a Obon festival when a bunch of drunk bosozoku got out of hand. Very neat.

Eric Montes
23rd August 2006, 20:01
Well..If I remember correctly, Shimizu sensei taught Jodo to soldiers in Manchuria as well in the 30's..That was more groups of 100 rather than 1 on 1.

True. But my understanding of the history was that this was after he had already been teaching in Tokyo and had developed the methodology for instructing large groups.

Best,
Eric

Ron Tisdale
23rd August 2006, 20:31
Since they are expecting trouble of some sorts, I doubt they'd be sending officers out with ineffective weapons.

Read any reports out of Iraq lately?? Or Lebanan, for that matter...

;)

Best,
Ron (ya never know...)

renfield_kuroda
24th August 2006, 04:34
Ren,
Shimizu Takaji Sensei was primarily responsible for bringing SMR to Tokyo. Kaminoda Sensei was one of his first students.

"Dumbing down" might be a little inaccurate. Concessions were made in order to teach large groups of people. SMR had only been taught 1 on 1, or in small groups previously.
Naruhodo, thanks. That makes sense and explains some of the differences I see between koryu jo and seitei jo (and several flavors inbetween.)

Regards,

r e n

K. Cantwell
24th August 2006, 06:12
That makes sense and explains some of the differences I see between koryu jo and seitei jo (and several flavors inbetween.)

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure Diane will let me know posthaste if I am,) the idea behind seitei jo was to make it more accessible to the kendo guys. Many of the kendo guys being cops, perhaps there is a correlation. I don't think, however, the group teaching aspect was as much an influence as kendo was on seitei jo.

Perhaps it seems like I'm splitting hairs here. What I mean to say is that the concern was not how to teach jo to 100 people at a time, but rather how to teach jo to 100 kendo guys at a time.

Kevin Cantwell

allan
24th August 2006, 19:45
Hi Folks,

I was just digging through old posts today and came across this from Meik Skoss, which may or may not be pertinent to the discussion at hyand (I hope for the former):


Japanese police baton techniques are, as described by Donn Draeger in his *Modern Bujutsu and Budo*, derived from the Ikkaku-ryu (a school of juttejutsu associated with/subsumed by Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu) and an admixture of other stuff from a variety of sources.

Nothing is available in English about either system, to my knowledge, nor is it likely that there ever will be, since the police in Japan tend to be rather close-mouthed about a lot of their stuff. Obviously, the less available sensitive material is, the less likely the bad guys will know what it is you're likely to do. A few non-Japanese did train in the police-related combatives (including taihojutsu), and it may be possible to gain some information from them. Or it may not -- you'd have to fine/ask them.

What I recall of the techniques is pretty simple: basically it's just smack the guy on the attacking arm/fist/leg/foot, take him down, smack him across the torso to discourage any further resistance (i.e., knock the fight out of 'im), then handcuff or tie him up and cart him off to the pokey. None of it was rocket science, but it helps if one has a decent understanding of ma-ai, hyoshi/choshi, hassuji, and kurai.

Hope this helps.

Here is the thread (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28878#post28878) .


Regards,