Unknown Japanese Photograph Questions [Archive]

Josh Reyer

4th April 2006, 00:37

Thanks Mr. Reyer. If you have the chance or time, can you tell us more about the oufit ? Thanks again !

Don't know much specifically. Check out this site (http://www.stillsitting.com/sitting-in.html) . Looks like he's wearing a summer koromo.

RobertRousselot

4th April 2006, 00:51

A friend emailed me this photo and asking what this photo is all about. Since I don't know the answer and I am curious as well. perhaps someone here might be able to assist.

Thanks.

I can’t see it clearly but I imagine he has a small bowl in his hands. When people walk past and wish to donate money they put it in the bowl and the monk says a prayer.
These donations are then taken back to the temple where they are used to help support the temple.
One priest told me that this form “begging” is also a part of Zen training much like zazen is.

Cla68

4th April 2006, 21:00

I've seen those guys standing in the train stations in the Tokyo area also. It's interesting how they can stand like that all day long.

Hattori

5th April 2006, 09:20

A Soto Zen monk.

RobertRousselot

5th April 2006, 12:48

A Soto Zen monk.

Is there a way you can tell he is a Soto Monk and not a Rinzai Monk?

allan

5th April 2006, 15:44

In the Rinzai zen tradition, at least, this practice is called takuhatsu (I hope that my memory serves me right this morning) and is a very important part of the way of life. It is one of the basic means of contact between monks and laypeople. In villages at least monks often receive food as donation and not just money. The food received goes into the monastic dinner-pot, so to speak.

Brian Owens

6th April 2006, 06:23

This form of "begging" or "asking for alms" is also called, in English, mendicancy.

An interesting point about mendicant monks (at least in the tradition that I am familiar with) is that when someone gives them a donation the prayer in response is not for or about the person making the donation, but usually some form of general prayer for all sentient beings.

In this way the donations are thought to be more pure and less selfish.

Brian Owens

6th April 2006, 06:40

...can you tell us more about the oufit?
I'm not Mr. Reyer, but if I may toss in my 2 cents' worth:

The hat is called takuhatsugasa. The "-kasa" part is, I believe, the same kanji as for umbrella, and you can see by its size that it does indeed work as both hat and umbrella.

The thin, see-through garment is, as Mr. Reyer said, a summer-weight koromo. In both summer and winter materials, the koromo is worn out-of-doors to keep the robes clean, as well as for warmth.

The rough leggings and rope sandals are worn as a show of poverty, as monks are to give up their worldly belongings and live with just "three robes and a bowl."

HTH.

Mekugi

6th April 2006, 08:02

Just as a note here, the hanging around the train stations is not an original style.
In this day and age, it is easier to meet people who gather at train stations, so it has become normal to see them. Originally, however, these monks used to go around to houses and read sutra, and this what is what is called Takuhatsu. The homeowners give them money for their services and they move on up the street. This still happens in my neighborhood, and I always welcome them here, unlike the NHK guy. To me it adds to the feeling of community.

It is also important to note that in the Edo era these traveling monks were allowed through borders that were otherwise forbidden to the common people. With this freedom of travel, they would carried news and information from other provinces, so the community actually relied upon them as a type of courier.

Hattori

6th April 2006, 10:30

Is there a way you can tell he is a Soto Monk and not a Rinzai Monk?

Koromo with long Heian style sode and cut to just below the knees = Soto-shu.
Koromo with short sode and cut to just above the ankles = Rinzai-shu.

These are not hard fixed rules these days though where koromo are sewn by hand and sometimes are hand-me-downs also, but that is the general way to tell the difference.

nyoronyoro

8th April 2006, 13:32

BTW, if memory serves me, isn't the main mon of kiyomizudera (kyōto) the one in the background?

Hattori

8th April 2006, 23:20

Certainly looks like Kiyomizudera in the background. I don't see any distinguishing mon however.

Tripitaka of AA

9th April 2006, 16:57

Great question. Ecellent responses.

I'd just add that the koromo is similar to the Hoi worn by senior students and instructors of Shorinji Kempo during ceremonial occasions and for Embu. When worn for Embu, the sleeves are rolled up and tied behind the neck.

Hattori

9th April 2006, 21:54

The difference between a hoi and koromo is the number and spacing of pleats in the lower quadrant and the shape and size of the sode.

Sode of koromo (both Soto-shu and Rinzai-shu as well as other sects) are triangular (in the ancient Chinese/Heian style). The sode of hoi (especially those worn by Shorinji kempo) are square (native Japanese style) and smaller with openings at the arm-pits.

The sleeves of hoi and koromo usually both have ties inside to aid in tying them up (behind the neck) during activities.

Tripitaka of AA

10th April 2006, 08:18

Thank you David. Do you know anything about the obi that is worn with a Hoi? How is a Koromo tied at the waist? As you may know, the Shorinji Kempo Hoi is worn with what can only be described as a long sausage, is this a traditional form?

Brian Owens

10th April 2006, 10:47

...How is a Koromo tied at the waist? As you may know, the Shorinji Kempo Hoi is worn with what can only be described as a long sausage, is this a traditional form?
The koromo obi is not traditionally Japanese (as in, worn by the general populace), but is worn by some sects of Buddhism. I believe it is of Chinese origin.

It's similar to the Shorinji Kempo hoi obi, but not identical.

http://www.stillsitting.com/product-images/belt-225.jpg
http://www.stillsitting.com/product-images/winter-225.jpg

Here's a close-up of how it's tied among Rinzai adherents:

http://www.stillsitting.com/enlarge-images/belt-500.jpg

Hattori

10th April 2006, 11:14

How is a Koromo tied at the waist?

With ties. A shorinji kempo hoi also has ties, as do samue.

Here's a close-up of how it's tied among Rinzai adherents:

Brian, that is only from the American Rinzai-shu practitioners.

As far as I'm aware in Japan (today at least) an obi is not worn with a koromo. There are some old photos from around the turn of the century that do show priests from various sects wearing hakubutai.

The form worn by Shorinji kempo adherents is similar to that worn with yoroi and can also be seen in early depictions of Sumo wrestlers.

I believe it is of Chinese origin.

I'd be interested if you could point me to some historical evidence for Chinese wearing anything even similar to this. As far as I'm aware, Chinese used either coloured ropes or flat coloured ties for both formal Buddhist wear and court dress.

Tom Karazozis

10th April 2006, 23:47

Brian Owens

11th April 2006, 03:46

...Brian, that is only from the American Rinzai-shu practitioners.
Hmm. Okay, if you say so. I've never been to Japan, and the only Zen folk I know personally are from the Seattle area, but I would have sworn I'd seen pictures of Rinzai monks in Japan wearing them.

...I'd be interested if you could point me to some historical evidence for Chinese wearing anything even similar to this. As far as I'm aware, Chinese used either coloured ropes or flat coloured ties for both formal Buddhist wear and court dress.
I'll have to see what I can find. The information I have (or think I have) is on Chan monks specifically, as opposed to Chinese Buddhists generally. But I don't recall the source.

Hattori

11th April 2006, 07:07

The "maruguke no obi" you are refering to, that was usually called "shukin"（手巾）, was worn by unsui（雲水）, traveling zen-shu monks. This was usually worn over the jikitotsu-no-mo(the traveling koromo) during edo-jidai. Even today you can see it being worn by zen monks engaging in Takuhatsu, but mostly rinzai-shu monks. I saw an NHK documentary on the soto-unsui of eihei-ji and did not see them wearing Shukin, but i have seen it being worn by rinzai-unsui　and it wasn't in the united states.

Well I'll be. Thanks.

By the way, unsui are monks in training or novice monks - not necessarily those on any pilgrimage or travel.

My experience is in Soto-shu, so therefore you could accuse me of being slightly biased. However, I have not seen Rinzai-shu monks in Japan wearing obi of any description other than a black rope during chores. But if you have seen it then it must be so. Thanks for the clarification.

but I would have sworn I'd seen pictures of Rinzai monks in Japan wearing them.

I'd very much like to see them, just so I know. Thanks.

Tom Karazozis

12th April 2006, 01:09

Well I'll be. Thanks.

By the way, unsui are monks in training or novice monks - not necessarily those on any pilgrimage or travel.

My experience is in Soto-shu, so therefore you could accuse me of being slightly biased. However, I have not seen Rinzai-shu monks in Japan wearing obi of any description other than a black rope during chores. But if you have seen it then it must be so. Thanks for the clarification.

I'd very much like to see them, just so I know. Thanks.

Sorry, I will clarify the mistake on my previous post, I meant, it was worn by unsui or other traveling monks of zen-shu. I also have to admit that it is rarely seen today and was mostly worn during edo-jidai, but I have still seen "shukin" being worn. The only main reason that i have found out about the "shukin" being worn, was, The kesa and zagu were placed in the kesa-fumikura it was then covered with kesa-bunko-fukuro, it would hang at about stomach level and the "shukin" would firmly be tied around to keep the kesa-bunko-fukuro from flapping around during long and harsh pilgrimages.