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jss
10th April 2006, 16:41
Hi,

I practice aikido and thus aiki-ken and aiki-jo.
In bokken-jo kata all teachers say that the advantage of the sword is that it's sharper and the advantage of the jo that it's longer. Ironically most people have such a wide grip in e.g. yokomen uchi that it completely negates the advantage in length.
So what are the recommendations of the koryu on the width of the grip?

Fred27
10th April 2006, 17:17
Funny you should mention it. We have an aikidoka in our SMR-group. He just started wtith Jodo this semester but has trained aikido for 11 years (and aiki-jo). It kinda notices sometimes since he has this habbit of griping the jo at about half it's length (in some techniques), whereas the ideal grip would be with one hand at the base and the other upwards at roughly one quarter of the jo's length.

Kinda like this: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/files/images/detailed/d_517.jpg

In other techniques the grip is a bit wider to suit the situation: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/files/images/detailed/d_519.jpg

Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD so I assume the first one is the basic solo "Honte Uchi" kamae , (first technique of Kihon), and the second pic is "Kuri Tsuke", number 7 Kihon-technique with a partner.

So with that grip you will have the length-advantage over a swordsman...That was one of the first things, (if not the first thing), I was taught when I started with Jodo.

Guy LeSieur
10th April 2006, 17:24
Message deleted.

Brian Owens
11th April 2006, 07:34
...So what are the recommendations of the koryu on the width of the grip?
I don't practice koryu jo, but rather Seiki Ryu Jodo (a gendai, Aiki-jo art).

I'd say, "It depends."

The great advantage of the jo is flexibility. It can be held in a rather wide grip for leverage, or a narrow grip for reach; or anything in between. Even one-handed, as needed.

Thoughts?

Brian Owens
11th April 2006, 07:38
...Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD...
That looks like Shimabukuro Sensei.

I know of him as a Karate and an Iai teacher. I didn't know he did Jodo. Does the DVD specify if it's SMR or ZNKR Seitei Jo he's doing?

Fred27
11th April 2006, 08:10
That looks like Shimabukuro Sensei.

I know of him as a Karate and an Iai teacher. I didn't know he did Jodo. Does the DVD specify if it's SMR or ZNKR Seitei Jo he's doing?

Hm..well the DVD description (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16186&cat=&page=1) says:
8th dan Kyoshi, Masayuki Shimabukuro instructs the Kihon (Basics) of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo in this video. The founder of Jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to ever beat the legendary Musashi Miyamoto. Reenacted at the beginning of this film is that legendary battle. Contents include:History of Shinto Muso Ryu
Etiquette -sitting -standing
Jo Posture -ritsu jo -sage jo
Jo Kamae
Sword Handling
Sword Kamae
Sword Strikes
12 Basic Strikes of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo
Striking Application shown with Partner

So I guess it's the main SMR he is doing on the DVD.

*EDIT*

Hold it! Maybe it's not. Check this related product: Seitei Kata DVD (http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16190) In that one it says:
8th dan Kyoshi, Masayuki Shimabukuro instructs the Seitei Katachi (Paired Kata) of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo in this video. The founder of Jodo, Muso Gonnosuke, was the only person to ever beat the legendary Musashi Miyamoto. Reenacted at the beginning of this film is that legendary battle. Contents include:All 12 paired kata of Shinto Muso Ryu
Regular and slow motion
Multiple camera angles
Professional narrative explanation

From the descriptions I got the impression he was doing Shinto Muso-ryu rather than "All 12 paired kata of Shinto Muso-ryu" (which is actually 12 seitekata of ZKNR

kokumo
11th April 2006, 17:32
There are variations in particular circumstances, but the kihon within the system of aikijo taught by Mitsugi Saotome is roughly:

For aikiken, a distance of one fist between the two hands on the tsuka.

For aikijo, a distance of two fists between the two hands on the jo.

More than that and you may be making your partner distort his or her technique to avoid hitting your forward hand in many situations.

That said, my experience is that unless you're working with an aikidoka who has trained directly with a shihan who places a strong emphasis on aikiken and aikijo, or who has some koryu weapons experience, you're likely to be working with someone that hasn't had terribly precise instruction in this area.

FL

jss
12th April 2006, 15:37
The great advantage of the jo is flexibility. It can be held in a rather wide grip for leverage, or a narrow grip for reach; or anything in between.
Doesn't a wider grip reduce leverage?

Lowriderx52
13th April 2006, 02:30
http://www.budovideos.com/shop/files/images/detailed/d_517.jpg

In other techniques the grip is a bit wider to suit the situation: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/files/images/detailed/d_519.jpg

Those pics are from a Jodo Kihon (basic) techniques DVD so I assume the first one is the basic solo "Honte Uchi" kamae , (first technique of Kihon), and the second pic is "Kuri Tsuke", number 7 Kihon-technique with a partner.

So with that grip you will have the length-advantage over a swordsman...That was one of the first things, (if not the first thing), I was taught when I started with Jodo.

this guy wrote a book on Eishin Ryu right? I recognize him from that book.

Brian Owens
13th April 2006, 05:05
Doesn't a wider grip reduce leverage?
It depends on how you're using it. If you consider the hand on the end of the jo as the power hand, and the forward hand as the fulcrum, the greater the distance between the force and the fulcrum the greater the leverage at the far end.

"Give me a long enough lever, and a place to stand, and I could move the world."

Brian Owens
13th April 2006, 05:42
this guy wrote a book on Eishin Ryu right? I recognize him from that book.
Yes. Shimabukuro Sensei wrote Flashing Steel.

Fred27
13th April 2006, 06:07
Yes. Shimabukuro Sensei wrote Flashing Steel.

Wow thats him? I own the flashing steel book. :) I think the current headmaster of his Eishin-ryu iaijutsu style has a quite high rank in Shinto Muso-ryu too.

Carl Long
13th April 2006, 13:54
Wow thats him? I own the flashing steel book. :) I think the current headmaster of his Eishin-ryu iaijutsu style has a quite high rank in Shinto Muso-ryu too.


Miura Takeyuki Hanshi studied Jodo with Shimizu Sensei, Nakajima Sensei and Otofuji Sensei. As well as his 7th dan Shihan in Shito Ryu Karatedo from Mabuni Kenzo soke, Shimabukuro Sensei is currently ranked 7th Dan in Jodo and 8th Dan Hanshi in MJER. Shimabukuro Sensei has studied and teaches both Seitei and Koryu Jo. He has studied Jodo with both Miura Sensei and Matsuda Sensei. I hope this helps.

jss
13th April 2006, 14:35
It depends on how you're using it. If you consider the hand on the end of the jo as the power hand, and the forward hand as the fulcrum, the greater the distance between the force and the fulcrum the greater the leverage at the far end.
The only technique I can ome up with is controlling your opponent's weapon. Or are there others?
When delivering a strike, I'd rather think of my shoulder as the fulcrum.


"Give me a long enough lever, and a place to stand, and I could move the world."
Archimedes, right? ;-)

Fred27
13th April 2006, 15:39
Speaking of Saotome-sensei, I have a copy of his film "The Staff of Aikido", and if i were to go by that movie alone, I would say that his Aiki-jo uses use a forward grip at around the 35-40% section of the jo's length.

Ron Tisdale
13th April 2006, 15:56
I think most of the good aiki-jo I've seen divides the jo into 3rds. Sometimes less for thrusts like the one to the face...the hands are closer than in honte (sp) no kamae, which is the end of the jo and about 1/3 up the jo for the top hand. Ah, the thrust I'm thinking of is toma tsuki...The hands are about 1 to 2 fists apart at the end of the thrust.

Best,
Ron

Brian Owens
14th April 2006, 05:07
The only technique I can ome up with is controlling your opponent's weapon. Or are there others?
Too many to name.

In our style, we have many techniques that involve throwing, pinning, trapping, and otherwise controling both armed and unarmed opponents. Thus the wide variety of grips.


Archimedes, right? ;-)
Yep. (I think.)


I think most of the good aiki-jo I've seen divides the jo into 3rds.
Yeah, a good number of our waza used grips of 1/3rd the length, and a few even went to 2/3rds.

As always, of course, there are exceptions to the "Rule of Thirds."

Steve Luis
17th April 2006, 07:16
Yes, based on my experience studying with Chiba and Kanai Sensei, as well as with students of Saito Sensei, I'd have to agree there aren't many strict rules about how to hold the jo except for the basic techniques.

Brently Keen
11th May 2006, 22:48
Ok, here's my 2 cents worth on this. I think several people have touched on what I think is the key, but let me throw in a few other thoughts if I may.

Clearly it depends on what you're trying to do, are you trying to strike, thrust, sweep, takedown or throw? In aikido jo work there are all these types of techniques are there not?

I personally believe that aikido's jo derives as much, if not more from Daito-ryu bo/jo waza than from juken-jutsu or Hozoin-ryu sojutsu (as recently speculated by Ellis Amdur in his fine series of blogs over at AJ).

Much is often made about the drastic differences between koryu jojutsu (like SMR) and aikido jo. If I may speculate a little: A premise that I have noticed among several older koryu bojutsu styles is that their bojutsu evolved from naginata-jutsu with the assumption that their naginata blade had been severed or broken from the shaft, and thus bojutsu evolved from naginata and also borrowed techniques from yari in order to keep fighting with what one's remaining staff.

Legend has it that the SMR founder was defeated by Mushashi in their first encounter and that he presumably developed jojutsu from bojutsu as a strategic means to defeat a superior swordsman. Thus the primary assumption of jojutsu was in using the staff against a sword. In such instances the advantage of the jo includes a little more reach, than the sword, but not so much as to inhibit the use of both ends effectively to strike a swordsman in his range. This accounts for the main difference I think in koryu jojutsu and aikido jo. The former is primarily concerned with armed opponents (primarily swordsmen).

I suspect Mushashi won his first duel with Gonnosuke by closing the distance negating the reach of the longer bo, and perhaps even grabbing/grappling with his opponent to win (perhaps that is why he did not kill him?). Also remember that his father was supposedly a jutte master. Gonnosuke reportedly then later devised techniques with a shorter, more nimble staff (jo) as means to defeat Mushashi the next time they met.

Now if the jo affords an advantage over a swordsman in that it can be used to strike like a sword/bokken, sweep like a naginata, and also thrust like a spear/staff, all with both ends, then it also gives up the advantage of a long sharp edge. Therefore the most strategic way to avoid being struck, swept, or thrusted at by a jo weilding opponent is to close in and grab it (in muto dori fashion) and grapple with the opponent. But unlike actual muto dori which requires extraordinary skills, jo dori is within reasonable means, since there is no sharp edge to contend with.

In Daito-ryu, I understand aiki-jo to include not only aiki defenses against a swordsman, but perhaps most notably defenses against an opponent's (armed or unarmed) attempts seize and/or grapple with the staff. Thus we have all sorts of techniques for throwing opponents who grab or attempt to seize our staff, as well as techniques for closing and seizing an opponents staff, so that we can either finish him with our own weapon, or throw and/or pin him with it. And therein, I believe lies the real "empty hand" origin of various aikido jo waza including jo nage and jo dori.

So to answer the question of this thread, the way one holds the jo in Daito-ryu (anyway) corresponds to whether you're trying to strike, sweep, thrust, takedown, throw, or pin your opponent and how you intend to do so. If you accept the notion that Ueshiba's jo was largely derived from DR, then the way he held the jo was likely influenced by the same factors (at least originally).

Now, how much Ueshiba himself and his students after him may have modified such considerations for their own training purposes - IOW using the jo not to defeat opponents, but rather as an aikido training exercise, or to supplement, enhance and/or explain empty-hand aikido is anyone's guess.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Brian Owens
12th May 2006, 03:56
...I suspect Mushashi won his first duel with Gonnosuke by closing the distance negating the reach of the longer bo, and perhaps even grabbing/grappling with his opponent to win (perhaps that is why he did not kill him?)....
My understanding is that Musashi negated the reach advantage of the bo by using the juji dome nito (not sure about the terminology; the two sword X-block); and that he said he spared Gonnosuke's life because he recognized a spark of genius that he didn't want to snuff out.

Of course, myth and reality get mixed up a lot for outsiders like me. I could be totally wrong.

Fred27
12th May 2006, 06:21
My understanding is that Musashi negated the reach advantage of the bo by using the juji dome nito (not sure about the terminology; the two sword X-block); and that he said he spared Gonnosuke's life because he recognized a spark of genius that he didn't want to snuff out.

Of course, myth and reality get mixed up a lot for outsiders like me. I could be totally wrong.

Well there are several versions and I doubt we will ever learn the correct one. I heard one version where Musashi never even uses his shinken or short-sword but instead uses a half-finished bokken, (or a twig depending on source), and simply overwhelmed Gonnosuke by advancing quickly into his inner circles (not sure bout terminology "inner circles") and as a "killing stroke" he hit Gonnosuke (lightly) between the eyes. Arguebly he did it to illustrate a point: "I can kill you with my no ease at all, so take your arrogance elswhere and repent" or maybe something similar.

Here is one written version I found. It's supposedly from the Niten-ki:
"When Musashi was in Edo, he met an adept named Muso Gonnosuke, who asked to fight him. Gonnosuke used a wooden sword. Musashi was in the process of making a small bow; he picked up a piece of firewood. Gonnosuke attacked him without even bowing, but he received a blow from Musashi that made him fall down. He was impressed and left."

I can tell you this though, and I hope this isn't a major Shinto Muso-ryu secret, but SMR has a few kata where the uchidachi uses two swords and the shidachi has to negate the advantage of the two-swords in various ways. Most likely those kata were not even invented in Gonnosuke's days, and as stated it's not known if the second duel even took place, but for me I find it kinda fun to imagine: "thats how Gonnosuke defeated Musashis Juji dome" :)

Brian Owens
12th May 2006, 06:43
Well there are several versions and I doubt we will ever learn the correct one. I heard one version where Musashi never even uses his shinken or short-sword but instead uses a half-finished bokken, (or a twig depending on source...

Here is one written version I found. It's supposedly from the Niten-ki:


When Musashi was in Edo, he met an adept named Muso Gonnosuke, who asked to fight him. Gonnosuke used a wooden sword. Musashi was in the process of making a small bow; he picked up a piece of firewood. Gonnosuke attacked him without even bowing, but he received a blow from Musashi that made him fall down. He was impressed and left.
Hmmm. It sounds like someone mixed up two seperate stories.

The bit about a half-finished bokken sounds like the Ganryujima account.

As for Gonnosuke using a bokken and Musashi making a "small bow" -- I wonder if that's a confusion and should be Musashi using a bokken and Gonnosuke using a bo.

I don't know. It was a long time ago, in a land far away...

Fred27
12th May 2006, 07:39
Hehe, two versions and many more :). But its fun to read them though. Another version, (endless versions), he is using a veeeery long bokken instead of a Bo. Something like 4 shaku which would make it one of those no-dachi's.

I wouldn't mind to see the actual historical documents of the first duel, the "Kaijo Monogatari" from the 17th century, translated word-for-word on these forums so we can judge for ourselves. It's this sort of stuff that makes koryu interesting on the purely intellectual level. :) (for me anyways ;))



Hmmm. It sounds like someone mixed up two seperate stories.

The bit about a half-finished bokken sounds like the Ganryujima account.

As for Gonnosuke using a bokken and Musashi making a "small bow" -- I wonder if that's a confusion and should be Musashi using a bokken and Gonnosuke using a bo.

I don't know. It was a long time ago, in a land far away...

Brian Owens
12th May 2006, 07:56
...I wouldn't mind to see the actual historical documents of the first duel, the "Kaijo Monogatari" from the 17th century, translated word-for-word on these forums so we can judge for ourselves. It's this sort of stuff that makes koryu interesting on the purely intellectual level. :) (for me anyways ;))
Me too.

Sounds like a job for Hyaku!