PDA

View Full Version : Shotokan - Expunged From Japanese History



Prince Loeffler
19th April 2006, 08:03
Hello All !

I started a thread titled “Back to the Future” in the Member’s Lounge as a fun thread. Brian Owens posted a very interesting note that got me thinking.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=401143&postcount=12

Based on my limited knowledge, as I understood that there were several Okinawan Karate masters that opposed Funakoshi from importing the island’s art of karate to mainland Japan.

Let say that some tragic circumstances such as death fell on Funakoshi before he could take the art to Japan. Would karate in Japan still exist as we know it today ? Would Masatoshi Nakayama, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tsutomu Ohshima and many other legendary Shotokan masters even think about training in Karate ? The last question is what would karate in Japan like had history decided to changed its course ?

You thoughts ?

Martin H
19th April 2006, 12:37
Funakoshi was not the only karate master going to japan (Motobu quickly comes to mind). And much of karates initial spread worldwide was due to US soldiers learning small parts of it while stationed on okinawa after the war. So Karate would still be known and spread.
But Funakoshi and Shotokan was undoubtly the most successful school, So I think that karate would not be nearly as large as it is now.
Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

Margaret Lo
19th April 2006, 16:42
Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

Nakayama Masatoshi and his generation were credited with much of the look and training methodology of the modern JKA. He came from a family with sword background (whether kendo or a koryu I do not know) and much of the concepts and look of shotokan kata reflect the influence of sword. I think that any other style of karate, once it went to Japan, was bound to absorb Japanese influence and would have ended up looking much like shotokan does today.

M

Prince Loeffler
19th April 2006, 17:38
Funakoshi was not the only karate master going to japan (Motobu quickly comes to mind). And much of karates initial spread worldwide was due to US soldiers learning small parts of it while stationed on okinawa after the war. So Karate would still be known and spread.
But Funakoshi and Shotokan was undoubtly the most successful school, So I think that karate would not be nearly as large as it is now.
Also, without Shotokan dominating the field and influence almost all styles, I think it possible that karate would resemble its okinawan roots more closely.

Hi Martin ! I can't remember, but correct me if I am wrong. Didn't Sosai Oyama trained uner the shotokan system ? If this is true. What will Kyukoshin like today had Funakoshi ceased to exist ?

Martin H
19th April 2006, 18:39
Hi Martin ! I can't remember, but correct me if I am wrong. Didn't Sosai Oyama trained uner the shotokan system ? If this is true. What will Kyukoshin like today had Funakoshi ceased to exist ?

Yes Sosai Oyama began his karate career in shotokan, Under Funakoshi (both Gichin and Giko), and stayed there for about two years (and to his 2nd dan) before switching to Goju ryu under Nei-Chu So, and later Gogen Yamamgushi who awarded him 8th dan in the style.

So kyokushin would not exist. Atleast not as we know it today.

Prince Loeffler
19th April 2006, 18:51
Yes Sosai Oyama began his karate career in shotokan, Under Funakoshi (both Gichin and Giko), and stayed there for about two years (and to his 2nd dan) before switching to Goju ryu under Nei-Chu So, and later Gogen Yamamgushi who awarded him 8th dan in the style.

So kyokushin would not exist. Atleast not as we know it today.

Hmm, Perhaps the name "Kyokushin" may not exist, but Sosai might just have started and stayed in Goju Ryu, you think ? I just wondered how much of Shotokan has influenced on Sosai Oyama.

Martin H
19th April 2006, 21:07
Hmm, Perhaps the name "Kyokushin" may not exist, but Sosai might just have started and stayed in Goju Ryu, you think ? I just wondered how much of Shotokan has influenced on Sosai Oyama.

If he could have gotten into goju. I dont know how he got to know his new teacher Nei-Chu So, but chances are that they met trough some karate activity. So maybe he would not have come into contact with karate at all. And even with karate training, without Nei-Chu So, Oyama might just have gotten lost in criminality (he worked as gang "soldier" for a while after the war).

The same can be said of many other masters such as the founder of Wadoryu (not the part about becoming a thug ofcourse), who might just have stayed with jujutsu if not for funakoshi. So no Wadoryu. -that makes 3 of the 5 largest karate styles in the world gone.

As for how shotokan influences kyokushin. It is very noticeable in the beginning of the kyokushin training, but as time passes the training and skills grows more similar to goju. This reflects that Sosai started out in shotokan but got his advanced schooling in goju.

Andrew S
19th April 2006, 21:52
The Jinen Ryu would also not have come into being, at least they way we know it today.
Same would be true for Chito Ryu and some of the Korean systems would certainly be quite different.

I could postulate two opposite fates for Motobu. Either he would have flowered under his fighting ability without the elite in mainland Japanese society being influenced by Funakoshi's writings; or without Kano's patronage, karate might not have taken off to the extent it did, at the time it did, leaving Motobu known merely as some brawler from a backwater prefecture.

My personal feeling is that Mabuni would have become the dominant force behind the spread of karate.

robertmrivers
20th April 2006, 22:38
Without Funakoshi the great publicity Funakoshi received when he was portrayed as the fighter during Motobu's fight with the boxer would have been reversed. I agree that Mabuni also would have been a great influence as would Miyagi.

Prince Loeffler
20th April 2006, 22:52
I am curious, does anyone have an extensive knowledge as to who Funakoshi's famous and succesfull students are ?

Andrew S
21st April 2006, 07:55
I am curious, does anyone have an extensive knowledge as to who Funakoshi's famous and succesfull students are ?
That would be a question for forum member Harry Cook, author of Shotokan Karate: A Precise History.

Prince Loeffler
21st April 2006, 08:39
That would be a question for forum member Harry Cook, author of Shotokan Karate: A Precise History.


Good Idea Andrew ! I was wondering who else can I approached.

Prince Loeffler
21st April 2006, 22:11
A thought just came over, without Funakoshi would we be wearing the current Obi and Dogi ? Probably, but not sure.

Harry Cook
21st April 2006, 23:06
Funakoshi was the first of a number of Okinawan karate teachers. If he hadn't existed then Kanken Toyama may well have dominated the Tokyo area and his karate might be the best known version in Japan. There is no doubt that karate would have spread to mainland Japan via Mabuni, Uechi, and so on, but without the patronage that Funakoshi enjoyed from people like Jigoro Kano it may well have sunk into obscurity.
Certainly without the JKA's policy of developing professional instructors to spread their version of Shotokan around thr world karate would not be as well known internationally.
Harry Cook

Prince Loeffler
18th May 2006, 04:27
Funakoshi was the first of a number of Okinawan karate teachers. If he hadn't existed then Kanken Toyama may well have dominated the Tokyo area and his karate might be the best known version in Japan. There is no doubt that karate would have spread to mainland Japan via Mabuni, Uechi, and so on, but without the patronage that Funakoshi enjoyed from people like Jigoro Kano it may well have sunk into obscurity.
Certainly without the JKA's policy of developing professional instructors to spread their version of Shotokan around thr world karate would not be as well known internationally.
Harry Cook


Hello Mr. Cook,

Forgive me for resurrecting this thread, One statement above got me in a curious mode. Was Funakoshi the only Okinawan who went to Japan to promote Karate or was he simply the first to be recognized by the Goverment as the First to introduced Karate to the Japanese?

john_lord_b3
14th September 2006, 20:31
Hello All !

Let say that some tragic circumstances such as death fell on Funakoshi before he could take the art to Japan. Would karate in Japan still exist as we know it today ? Would Masatoshi Nakayama, Hidetaka Nishiyama, Tsutomu Ohshima and many other legendary Shotokan masters even think about training in Karate ? The last question is what would karate in Japan like had history decided to changed its course ?

You thoughts ?

hello Prince san, how are you? this is your friend from Indonesia :)

Back to your question. I think, if Funakoshi sensei did not bring his interpretation of Shorin-ryu into Okinawa, then Otsuka Hironori sensei will not be learning from him, and the style that I practice now, Wado-ryu, will not exist. Otsuka Hironori will go down in history as a mere banker who happened to inherit a Jujutsu art. Not as a founder of his own karate-jujutsu hybrid style.

BTW, from Wado sources, I am told that there are different "feel" between the Karate that Funakoshi sensei taught, and the one that was propagated by Nakayama Masatoshi & the JKA gang. They are alike, but not 100% similar.

Prince Loeffler
15th September 2006, 02:30
hello Prince san, how are you? this is your friend from Indonesia :)

Back to your question. I think, if Funakoshi sensei did not bring his interpretation of Shorin-ryu into Okinawa, then Otsuka Hironori sensei will not be learning from him, and the style that I practice now, Wado-ryu, will not exist. Otsuka Hironori will go down in history as a mere banker who happened to inherit a Jujutsu art. Not as a founder of his own karate-jujutsu hybrid style.

BTW, from Wado sources, I am told that there are different "feel" between the Karate that Funakoshi sensei taught, and the one that was propagated by Nakayama Masatoshi & the JKA gang. They are alike, but not 100% similar.


Haryo San ! How's my brother from the other side of the planet. Good to see you in here. I was under the same implression about the difference of Funakoshi's Shotokan to Masatoshi's Shotokan. I have seen the slight differences , but not enough to see a huge difference.

Tim Shaw
2nd October 2006, 18:15
If he could have gotten into goju. I dont know how he got to know his new teacher Nei-Chu So, but chances are that they met trough some karate activity. So maybe he would not have come into contact with karate at all. And even with karate training, without Nei-Chu So, Oyama might just have gotten lost in criminality (he worked as gang "soldier" for a while after the war).

The same can be said of many other masters such as the founder of Wadoryu (not the part about becoming a thug ofcourse), who might just have stayed with jujutsu if not for funakoshi. So no Wadoryu. -that makes 3 of the 5 largest karate styles in the world gone.

As for how shotokan influences kyokushin. It is very noticeable in the beginning of the kyokushin training, but as time passes the training and skills grows more similar to goju. This reflects that Sosai started out in shotokan but got his advanced schooling in goju.

Regarding Wado Ryu:
Wondering, if Hironori Ohtsuka had not met Gichin Funakoshi.... I suspect that from what we know Ohtsuka's interest in Okinawan karate came not from his meeting with Gichin Funakoshi, but instead from reading about karate in the popular press. It has been said that his curiosity was sufficiently stimulated to actually consider travelling to Okinawa to find out for himself, but instead he met Gichin Funakoshi, who then undoubtedly (or unwittingly) opened the door for him to meet with Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. These latter two masters were a bigger influence on him than Master Funakoshi.

To those who think that Wado is very similar to Shotokan, I think you are very much off beam, but then it depends what Wado you have been exposed to. There have been some off-shoots that have taken it that way.

So, without Master Funakoshi maybe Hironori Ohtsuka would have made a pilgrimage to Okinawa, and who knows what he would have experienced there. But I think Wado would have still happened without Master Funakoshi's influence. Just my theory.

Tim Shaw

Chucky
3rd October 2006, 14:05
Regarding Wado Ryu:
Wondering, if Hironori Ohtsuka had not met Gichin Funakoshi.... I suspect that from what we know Ohtsuka's interest in Okinawan karate came not from his meeting with Gichin Funakoshi, but instead from reading about karate in the popular press. It has been said that his curiosity was sufficiently stimulated to actually consider travelling to Okinawa to find out for himself, but instead he met Gichin Funakoshi, who then undoubtedly (or unwittingly) opened the door for him to meet with Kenwa Mabuni and Choki Motobu. These latter two masters were a bigger influence on him than Master Funakoshi.

To those who think that Wado is very similar to Shotokan, I think you are very much off beam, but then it depends what Wado you have been exposed to. There have been some off-shoots that have taken it that way.

So, without Master Funakoshi maybe Hironori Ohtsuka would have made a pilgrimage to Okinawa, and who knows what he would have experienced there. But I think Wado would have still happened without Master Funakoshi's influence. Just my theory.

Tim Shaw

Hi Tim.
You're right, I think Wado would have happened one way or another.
One thing that I think would be different, in quite a major sense, would be the Kata we practise. (That's assuming we are also training in this 'alternative' world)!
The Kata in Wado are mainly the ones taught to Otsuka from Funakoshi, what if Otsuka had learned a different set of Kata from, say, Kenwa Mabuni. As the list of Kata known by Mabuni at that time was quite extensive would we have more in Wado now, or still 15 but a completely different 15. EG three Nai hanchi, or Bassai dai and Bassai sho?
Obviously use of the imagination here rather than fact, but just for fun........

Tim Shaw
3rd October 2006, 17:26
Hi Tim.
You're right, I think Wado would have happened one way or another.
One thing that I think would be different, in quite a major sense, would be the Kata we practise. (That's assuming we are also training in this 'alternative' world)!
The Kata in Wado are mainly the ones taught to Otsuka from Funakoshi, what if Otsuka had learned a different set of Kata from, say, Kenwa Mabuni. As the list of Kata known by Mabuni at that time was quite extensive would we have more in Wado now, or still 15 but a completely different 15. EG three Nai hanchi, or Bassai dai and Bassai sho?
Obviously use of the imagination here rather than fact, but just for fun........

Hi Graham
My understanding is that the kata we practice are more heavily influenced by Mabuni than Funakoshi - and there's also the influence of Choki Motobu, specifically through Naihanchi. But Ohtsuka judged the last two Naihanchi as "useless" and so was quick to dismiss them (I suspect "useless" to his purpose). I know that Ohtsuka Sensei sought further clarifications on the kata he originally learnt from master Funakoshi, and he gained this knowledge through Kenwa Mabuni, who allegedly had an "encyclopedic" knowledge of kata.

I suspect that because Ohtsuka was carrying forward his own agenda, based on his very Japanese Budo background, he deliberately chose to (a) limit his kata to nine core kata and (b) to stay primarily within the Shuri based kata. Ohtsuka used the kata in a very different way than the way the Okinawans worked these very same kata, they became a vehicle for his ideas and the principles employed in Wado. I find it interesting to make comparisons between the orthodox Shorin Ryu versions of (for example) the Pinan katas and the Wado Pinans, there's a whole different thing happening there.

Tim Shaw

Nyuck3X
3rd October 2006, 18:38
Just curious guys, but what is the connection between
Ohtsuka and Motobu? What is the evidence?

Respectfully,

Tim Shaw
3rd October 2006, 19:41
Just curious guys, but what is the connection between
Ohtsuka and Motobu? What is the evidence?

Respectfully,

Hi,
Just a quick reply (I'm on my way to the Dojo).
Can't give you direct reference off the top of my head but Ohtsuka and Konishi both helped to sponsor Motobu in their own way.

I believe that Motobu was interested in Koryu Jujutsu and there was a kind of two way traffic between him and Ohtsuka.

Ohtsuka was also present when Motobu humiliated Funakoshi with the challenge to escape the grip of a Judo-ka, and Ohtsuka Sensei, when put to the challenge, being a Jujutsu person first and foremost had no trouble in dealing with the the Judo-ka.

Tim Shaw

Nyuck3X
4th October 2006, 01:30
Thanks Tim for the info.
I never heard of a connection but then again, I don't travel in Wado
circles so I really do not know much about it's history.