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powerof0ne
22nd April 2006, 19:50
I'm kind of curious why I see some Kyokushin and other styles of Karate that spar with leg kicks sometimes snap it like a Japanese mawashi geri. What I mean by this is if you watch Muay Thai you will rarely see a leg kick being snapped, it's more of a locked(slightly bent)kick and done on the balls of the feet. Not flat footed, in some Kyokushin clubs I generally see the practitioners being mostly flat footed and snapping the leg kicks. I'm not saying all do because I have also seen others that do more of a "muay thai" leg kick. Some are also kicking with more of the instep then they should be when they leg kick. I know from my own experience that if you do this kind of kick with most of the instep you can cause yourself great injury. It should be more of a shin/instep or all shin kick. I'm just wondering if anyone here has noticed this or can explain why snapping the leg kick? I only do it when I'm "playing" and do it in more of a "brazilian kick" way to the leg if I do snap/whip at all.

Prince Loeffler
22nd April 2006, 20:00
I'm kind of curious why I see some Kyokushin and other styles of Karate that spar with leg kicks sometimes snap it like a Japanese mawashi geri. What I mean by this is if you watch Muay Thai you will rarely see a leg kick being snapped, it's more of a locked(slightly bent)kick and done on the balls of the feet. Not flat footed, in some Kyokushin clubs I generally see the practitioners being mostly flat footed and snapping the leg kicks. I'm not saying all do because I have also seen others that do more of a "muay thai" leg kick. Some are also kicking with more of the instep then they should be when they leg kick. I know from my own experience that if you do this kind of kick with most of the instep you can cause yourself great injury. It should be more of a shin/instep or all shin kick. I'm just wondering if anyone here has noticed this or can explain why snapping the leg kick? I only do it when I'm "playing" and do it in more of a "brazilian kick" way to the leg if I do snap/whip at all.


From what I recall the very basic reason behind the The "whipping" of certain Kihon such as the Mawashi Geri is Instant Retraction to allow you to follow up on another techinique in case you missed the first. There could be many other reasons and theories behind the "whipping" movement. I would love to hear from others.

gmanry
23rd April 2006, 06:02
It can have the effect of allowing you to change the kick. This sacrifices power though, as you are reserving some follow through for the sake of having a compound strategy or a fallback.

I throw something that is between a thai kick and the typical kyokushin gedan mawashi geri. It allows me to hit thoroughly and deeply but also allows me to change it a little if the target changes (if I am a little bit lucky). My impact shape of my leg is pretty similar to a thai kick, and I do stay on the front 1/3 or ball of my foot and never plant the heel. It is my own personal kicking style that I have melded together from various influences.

I tend to hit with the shin right above the ankle flexing point, but can use the instep to slap if things don't go right, causing pain and annoyance and this can even bring unconditioned people down.

I think that the keeping of the heel down in Kyokushin is also a flexibility thing. In kihon the idea is to develop very strong hip flexibility. Unfortunately unless a person starts in their teens when ligaments and tendons can still be shaped, it will just result in damage to the knees for most people. Keep the heel planted and learn to use all the small muscles of the hip and legs to extend and gain maximum power.

powerof0ne
23rd April 2006, 07:58
I can throw the kick many different ways but you get more power pivoting on the balls of your feet the "Muay Thai" way. As some of you may allready also know when you do this you're pivoting so much that your supporting foot heel will almost be pointed at your target. You also don't have to be really high up on the balls of your feet with your heels inches off the ground.
Another thing I should have been more specific on when I was talking about "whipping" motion I meant the direction the kick is going from high to low and how you roll your hip when you do the "brazilian kick". This is also done in Muay Thai but with out a snap, usually..but even in Muay Thai you see a "crocodile tail's kick", aka "Brazilian kick".
A bad habbit that some "muay thai" gyms do is have the practitioner spin all the way through after missing a kick..in the camp I was trained in (muangsurin and jockygym), this is a big "no no" and a good follow up was actually by Master Toddy(who is also a high ranking TKD black belt)to throw a yuko geri after missing with a dtae(muay thai roundhouse).
I'm not going to argue that throwing a snapping gedan mawashi geri isn't quicker but the only good this will do is maybe fool the judges into thinking you are doing great because your instep made a slap.
I personally think it's a waste of time and was just wondering why some Kyokushin practitioners do this and others don't..I have seen others that throw more of a "Thai style" leg kick primarily in IKO 1 and by IKO 3 guys have seen more of a snapping gedan mawahsi geri..oh well, this is an interesting subject.

hectokan
23rd April 2006, 16:38
I tend to agree that the Muaythai kick is probably the way to go in sparring when leg kicks are allowed downstairs.I would imagin that in the begining of kyokushin history kicks were thrown in a more snappier way.This all probably started to change (a little bit)when the 3 kyokushin fighters traveled to Thailand in the early 60s to compete in Muaythai.

The reason why most kyokushin guys adapted to this muaythai style of kicking so fast is because unlike most others styles of karate,Kyokushin allows for strong powerful kicks to be administered to the legs.

Standard karate tournaments or standard karate sparring omit most any type of kicking to the legs.This makes it easier to incorporate a more snappier type of kick because there is no reprecussion(sp) for getting countered hard downstairs with a strong kick to the legs.Even in kickboxing styles like american "full contact karate" which fighters like Bill wallace made popular with snappier type kicks,tend to adapt a snappier version of kicking into their reptoire much easier,again because there is no consequences for doing so.

Ofcourse we had fighter's like Andy hug and a host of others fighters that were well versed in both methods of kicking and can use both style's of kicking effectively.Fighter's like Rick roufus who started out his career as a predominatly American style kickboxer(with more snappier type kicks)has made great improvement with his muaythai style of kicking in the last couple of years.

The only drawback here is that Thai kids start training the Thai style type of kicking since their early childhood and this creates a big advantage in competition for them,compared to someone who first learned all the snappier kicks first for many years and then later on tried to convert those snappier type kicks into a more Thai syle motion.

In defense of the snap kick,a well timed and well executed snap kick hitting and landing at the prescise right time is a thing of beauty and can very well knock you out.The odds are similar thou to the odds of someone landing a well executed single reverse punch and knocking somebody out.Slim chance, most of the time it will be a annoying and embarrasing experience with about the same amount of power as a jab.

powerof0ne
23rd April 2006, 17:26
I'd also like to add that Rick's brother, Duke Roufus switched over to Muay Thai after watching his brother Rick get his butt handed to him in a fight that allowed leg kicks. At first Duke was mad saying comments like "that's not fighting" but then later took back his comments and totally switched over to Muay Thai, even joining Master Toddy's association and training with him.
Hector hit it on the bulls eye, the snap kicks are a thing of beauty if they work, but how often do they work? I spar with this gentleman that reminds me a lot of Hug, or even Nicholas Pettas in terms of kicking and out of the 2 years I've sparred him I think that only twice has he dropped me with his awesome kicks.
The leg kick has differently neautralized a lot of kicker's game plans, at least I know it has for me. To get back to my original reason for starting this thread I was primarily interested in why SOME Kyokushin practitioners snap the leg kick? I watch guys like Filho, Feitosa, and Pettas...they don't but I also know that they have trained with Maurice Smith and even at Saeksan Janjira's gym(muay thai). So, I'm wondering if this is why, I'll have to go back and look at old footage of them before they trained in anything close to Muay Thai.

gmanry
23rd April 2006, 21:19
When I have taught gedan, I have trained people to kick through in a circle at first. I have taught the full insertion of the hip too. However, I do point out that the turning is dangerous and eventually people naturally curtail it and shorten up their form (with some coaxing). For small people I find this allows them to develop power with a smaller frame, then once they figure out that they CAN hit hard, they can work on making the kick more efficient.

This is a typical big movement to small movement teaching method. Some people are naturals and don't need this.

gmanry
23rd April 2006, 21:31
Snapping kicks are also easier to control when kicking air. I feel this is the major reason why they prevail in karate. Since everyone lines up and drills kihon, you get the snappy kicks, the whole formation may not have much room to move so you have to be able to retract, which is one point somebody brought up earlier. Anyone who has gone from traditional karate to a heavy/hard kicking style knows this is a pain to overcome.

I don't teach people to retract their legs, so I don't teach a chamber at with the knee, unless you are trying to fold that kick into a tight space (lead leg body kick). Even then it is not a tight fold. Instead I teach them to circle the hip differently to make the space.

Typically at impact, when teaching and demonstrating "good" form, I have the knee at roughly 120-130 degrees hitting with the shin across the outer muscles of the thigh.

From what I have seen of thai style kicking (trained with two thai coaches in Atlanta in the late 80's, kyokushin, and watching a lot of fights), our kicks look similar. I know some of the ladies who were in our recent class at 120lbs were easily cutting through to the bone. If I didn't consciously defend myself by positioning the pad just so, it hurt through the pads.

Unfortunately the class lost its space before I could get on to the sparring components, we were just starting partner work with distance and timing drills. I would have liked to have seen the more hardcore people go on to spar and learn to actually fight.

hectokan
23rd April 2006, 21:34
Brian,

The reason this happens and it's really just my opinion but I think that most practicioners that start kyokushin first start out learning the complete art of kyokushin,which includes the snappier type kicks traditionaly within in it's complete syllabus.

Therefore by the time a kyokushin practicioner figures out that they want to pursue ring fighting profesionaly like k1 or kyokushin fighting at a elite level,many years may have already been invested with both styles of kicking techniques.This makes it harder to transition over completley to the muaythai style without keeping some type of snappier kick type habbit, which could interfee with the proper muaythai kicking mechanics.

I actualy fought Rick roufus in a tournament karate match back in 84.He always had a great arsenal of snappy kicks but he could also slam the back leg round kick real hard with the back leg.Guys like him that come from a karate background train a particular style of kicking for many years,then find themselves after many years of kicking having to re-learn or a better word would be adapt or add a different system for delivering their kicks.

It is not easy to completely change over after many years of kicking a certain way.I practicaly kicked this way all thru the 70s snappy lead leg kick with a harder back leg kick(stationary supporting leg) for power.It took me many years (thru the 80s) to completley try to make the change over to pivoting correclty on the balls of my supporting leg,while coordinating the proper Muaythai hand position needed for the correct balance.

After many years of trying I still don't have it perfectly down to a science.This is simlar to a karate practicioner training traditional specific karate techniques for 10 years,then deciding in his mid to late 20s that he want to try thaiboxing well guess what?...the transition is going to be harder mechanicaly speaking than those Thai kids who have been doing it correctly since they were babies.

hectokan
23rd April 2006, 21:52
Snapping kicks are also easier to control when kicking air. I feel this is the major reason why they prevail in karate. Since everyone lines up and drills kihon, you get the snappy kicks, the whole formation may not have much room to move so you have to be able to retract, which is one point somebody brought up earlier. Anyone who has gone from traditional karate to a heavy/hard kicking style knows this is a pain to overcome.


We must have been posting and thinking the same thing at about the same time.

LOL

powerof0ne
24th April 2006, 01:51
Brian,

The reason this happens and it's really just my opinion but I think that most practicioners that start kyokushin first start out learning the complete art of kyokushin,which includes the snappier type kicks traditionaly within in it's complete syllabus.

Therefore by the time a kyokushin practicioner figures out that they want to pursue ring fighting profesionaly like k1 or kyokushin fighting at a elite level,many years may have already been invested with both styles of kicking techniques.This makes it harder to transition over completley to the muaythai style without keeping some type of snappier kick type habbit, which could interfee with the proper muaythai kicking mechanics.

I actualy fought Rick roufus in a tournament karate match back in 84.He always had a great arsenal of snappy kicks but he could also slam the back leg round kick real hard with the back leg.Guys like him that come from a karate background train a particular style of kicking for many years,then find themselves after many years of kicking having to re-learn or a better word would be adapt or add a different system for delivering their kicks.

It is not easy to completely change over after many years of kicking a certain way.I practicaly kicked this way all thru the 70s snappy lead leg kick with a harder back leg kick(stationary supporting leg) for power.It took me many years (thru the 80s) to completley try to make the change over to pivoting correclty on the balls of my supporting leg,while coordinating the proper Muaythai hand position needed for the correct balance.

After many years of trying I still don't have it perfectly down to a science.This is simlar to a karate practicioner training traditional specific karate techniques for 10 years,then deciding in his mid to late 20s that he want to try thaiboxing well guess what?...the transition is going to be harder mechanicaly speaking than those Thai kids who have been doing it correctly since they were babies.

I agree with all of this but I know my younger brother recently joined an IKO3 Kyokushin club and he comes from a muay thai background. They were trying to get him to quit kicking the "thai way" and to snap his leg kicks, even though when he would spar some of the yudansha that he was able to keep up with them. Yet, he's very uncomfortable sparring without punches allowed to the head and could but was trying to be taught to leg kick by snapping his kicks. I find it very odd, is all.
p.s. I briefly trained with a gentleman that came from an "american karate" background that somehow got suckered into making his kickboxing debut against Rick Roufus, to make a long story short Roufus annihilated him. This happened in the early 90s and I was schooling this gentleman when I was only 16, I could only imagine what Roufus did to him. Even though I feel that Roufus has proven himself enough where he should retire from competing.

hectokan
24th April 2006, 15:02
I agree with all of this but I know my younger brother recently joined an IKO3 Kyokushin club and he comes from a muay thai background. They were trying to get him to quit kicking the "thai way" and to snap his leg kicks, even though when he would spar some of the yudansha that he was able to keep up with them.


Brian,
I also would be interested in getting a answer on this one.Maybe some of our kyokushin enthusiast can chime in here.I would venture off into thinking that the scoring criteria for kyokushin today scores heavier for flashier type kicks,as compared to traditional muaythai scoring criteria that does not put much empahsis on it,Just guessing thou.

powerof0ne
26th April 2006, 16:24
I was hoping Martin H, or even CLA68(he's Enshin)might comment on this..I know Martin H knows quite a bit about Kyokushin, I should maybe post this on kyokushin4life and see what they say.

Martin H
27th April 2006, 14:37
I was hoping Martin H, or even CLA68(he's Enshin)might comment on this..I know Martin H knows quite a bit about Kyokushin, I should maybe post this on kyokushin4life and see what they say.

Thanks for the vote of confidience :-)
I am a bit stressed today and a few days ahead (I realy does not even have time to write this, but I need a break), but will try to read through the thread and get back to it next week. I think you guys are a bit too awed about thai kicks and dont give enough cred to knockdown karate type kicks though.

(but post on kyokushin4life anyway. the more input the merrier)

I DO feel I should reply to this.


Brian,
I would venture off into thinking that the scoring criteria for kyokushin today scores heavier for flashier type kicks,as compared to traditional muaythai scoring criteria that does not put much empahsis on it,

In kyokushin you get half point if the opponent goes down, but gets up again within 3-5 seconds (varies between org), if he stays down longer you get a full point=win.
How a technique looks or what type it is is totaly irrelevant. Kyokushin, point karate, trad karate, muaythai or tkd type kick. -it does not matter as long as
it downs the opponent.

powerof0ne
27th April 2006, 15:05
In my experience with leg kicks I have never felt much pain by the quicker whipping kicks. However, there is a way to bring your kicks up and down..chopping them downwards without snapping them. When I meant snap, I meant literally somewhat snap your kicks but also putting your hip into it. Just like a traditional mawashi geri but to the legs, I'm not saying all Kyokushin trains this way, but I do know that some do.

hectokan
27th April 2006, 18:34
In kyokushin you get half point if the opponent goes down, but gets up again within 3-5 seconds (varies between org), if he stays down longer you get a full point=win.
How a technique looks or what type it is is totaly irrelevant. Kyokushin, point karate, trad karate, muaythai or tkd type kick. -it does not matter as long as
it downs the opponent.

Martin,

Yes,I would think(please Martin correct if I am wrong in my way of thinking) that because kyokushin does not allow for clinching or plumming along with knees to the head,that this changes the whole concept or way someone can fight a Kyokushiun match,as opposed to fighting a Muaythai match.


If your opponent is not allowed to clinch you,grab you or knee you in the head,like in muaythai,then I would assume that one is able to constantly fight the the match from a farther distance.This does two things 1) It allows more of a kicking game to materialize,which in return allows for more snappier type kicks to have their say 2) when you do get inside(where no clinching is allowed)fighters find very clever ways to deliver snappier types of head kicks off the break,which are harder to do with Muaythai type of kicks.


In other words the muaythai practicioner (becasue of it's rules)is simlilar to say a MMA practioner that only wants to throw a stronger type of kick which makes it harder for your opponent to clinch afterwards.

IMO,it's not nessecsarily a point about wether one kick is better than the other one.It's more that the rules dictate the way the fight is fought.In K1 for instance were very little clinching is allowed nowadays,one actualy happens to see more snappier type round kicks from time to time.

If a good fighter went to bangkok and fought at lumpini stadium using or implementing the snappier types of kick strategy.He might be able to pull it off if he's real good but the downside to this,is that this will expose himself more for clinch type opportunities for his opponent.This is why the Thais opt by inlarge to stay away from them.Both are great kicks to have IMO in one arsenal both are tough fight sports,hell Iv'e seen a couple of knockouts in MMA with snappier type kicks.

powerof0ne
30th April 2006, 20:11
Hmm..some Kyokushin fighters definitely throw more of a muay thai style kick while others throw it a bit differently. From the Kyokushin tourny I competed in yesterday I noticed some would snap it, and others would bring it up and down putting more hip into it, and almost a whip(almost like a low brazilian/maha/crocodiles tail whip kick)kick...I even know some kickboxers that throw them this way. One such fighter that won the middleweight division definitely used more of a muay thai style kick.

gmanry
2nd May 2006, 04:29
This has gotten me thinking about how I kick and show kicking to others. In the class I was teaching last year, we got to where I could start discussing the very small circles you can make with your hip and knee, which do produce a sort of snappier looking kick but allow you to do the downward roundhouse kick which does hit with a lot of force.

In general I taught gedan with a wide circle that emphasized the insertion of the hip deeply into the pads. This produces a lot of penetration and requires less force to be generated, which is good for smaller people. I found that as they became accustomed to it, they would begin eliminating extraneous body motion for their size and weight.

I did teach the Kyokushin style of keeping the leg parallel to the floor. Interestingly enough this wasn't to different from what my thai teachers showed us back in 1990. Although I notice more people in MMA getting kind of sloppy and throwing it more upwards, which I have found glances off more. However, maybe it allows faster recovery to protect from the shoot. Just something I have noticed.

When you are throwing the kick at full speed all that fine detail begins to decrease, but you stand a better chance of throwing a more effective kick if you have drilled those details incessantly, imo.

powerof0ne
3rd May 2006, 15:22
I know what you're talking about and perhaps I'm talking about some Kyokushin practitioners that got sloppy? I have literally seen some that don't put their hips into it and snap the gedan mawashi geri.
While I have seen others that do what you described you have also seen in some muay thai gyms..and I have seen some that do more of a muay thai style where they lock the leg more and will chop it down or keep it at the same level.

gmanry
3rd May 2006, 17:36
Overall, I tend to treat all the above as just variations. At some moment in time any one of them could work. I really try to get people to be as responsive and comfortable as possible with doing what is necessary to land the technique.

Having done TKD, kyokushin, and muay thai, I try to present as much about kicking "theory" as possible, given the capabilities of the individual. People just absorb as much as they can and put it into practice, I hope.

Brad Burklund
9th May 2006, 20:53
Wow! Interesting technical coversation. Thanks everyone for the read! :)

Having come originally from a TKD background myself that did not have any "real" lows kicks (I was always told that if you can kick high, you can kick low, which is BS in my opinion) and then moving to a Kyokushin derivative style for the last 15 years and also having trained for a short while with two guys who trained in MT in Thailand (years ago) it was quite an eye opener for the differences and variations in the kicks.

A back condition and a herniated disc made me appreciate a variation of the low kick that was mentioned above with the downward "chopping" motion. (The severe torquing of MT started to cause me problems.) I have seen Ishi of Seido Karate due this kick in an older video, but it seems to be an amalgam of the MT and Kyokushin derived kicks. It is a bit slower and if done on-axis, facing your opponent, presents problems when face punches are allowed.

However, performing it would come from that traditional plant of the Kyokushin player with the supporting foot flat on the ground and not pivoting (in real application you would be on the balls of your feet with slight pivoting motions of the foot, but this is necessary for training purposes here) so that the kicking leg is whipped in a circular fashion over the hip joint, not turned inward as a hinged door, impacting with the flat of the shin bone about 3-6 inches above the ankle. This requires a slight turn and bend of the torso and your body weight being directed loosely in the direction of the kick so that you transition you mass into the kick, thus one needs to be wary of face punches.

In this case, the impact zone is on the equator of the opponent's thigh with better contact made along the outer edge of the leg about 50 percent of the way between the hip joint and the knee where the muscularture is less dense than on the front of the quad and where it's occasionally possible to hit the nerves there to add a little "umph" to the kick. In sparring this does less to pain the opponent noting the presence of adrenaline, but does give a nice dead-leg...and in some cases can collapse an opponent not used to the contact on that limb.

Generally, this type of kick comes into its own from close in and to the side of your opponent...especially if grabs are allowed.

-Brad Burklund

Prince Loeffler
10th May 2006, 00:00
Wow! Interesting technical coversation. Thanks everyone for the read! :)

Having come originally from a TKD background myself that did not have any "real" lows kicks (I was always told that if you can kick high, you can kick low, which is BS in my opinion) and then moving to a Kyokushin derivative style for the last 15 years and also having trained for a short while with two guys who trained in MT in Thailand (years ago) it was quite an eye opener for the differences and variations in the kicks.

A back condition and a herniated disc made me appreciate a variation of the low kick that was mentioned above with the downward "chopping" motion. (The severe torquing of MT started to cause me problems.) I have seen Ishi of Seido Karate due this kick in an older video, but it seems to be an amalgam of the MT and Kyokushin derived kicks. It is a bit slower and if done on-axis, facing your opponent, presents problems when face punches are allowed.

However, performing it would come from that traditional plant of the Kyokushin player with the supporting foot flat on the ground and not pivoting (in real application you would be on the balls of your feet with slight pivoting motions of the foot, but this is necessary for training purposes here) so that the kicking leg is whipped in a circular fashion over the hip joint, not turned inward as a hinged door, impacting with the flat of the shin bone about 3-6 inches above the ankle. This requires a slight turn and bend of the torso and your body weight being directed loosely in the direction of the kick so that you transition you mass into the kick, thus one needs to be wary of face punches.

In this case, the impact zone is on the equator of the opponent's thigh with better contact made along the outer edge of the leg about 50 percent of the way between the hip joint and the knee where the muscularture is less dense than on the front of the quad and where it's occasionally possible to hit the nerves there to add a little "umph" to the kick. In sparring this does less to pain the opponent noting the presence of adrenaline, but does give a nice dead-leg...and in some cases can collapse an opponent not used to the contact on that limb.

Generally, this type of kick comes into its own from close in and to the side of your opponent...especially if grabs are allowed.

-Brad Burklund


I can also attest to the fact and swear on a bible that the kick Brad speaks of is the most painfull, excruciating, hellish, nightmarish, and sickening techniques one can experience when at the recieving end. :)

Cla68
6th June 2006, 16:16
As some of you may allready also know when you do this you're pivoting so much that your supporting foot heel will almost be pointed at your target.

Does this mean that the Muay Thai or Brazilian style of low roundhouse exposes more of your back to your opponent if he parries or moves out of the way of your kick?

powerof0ne
6th June 2006, 18:16
Not necessarily exposing your back but possibly exposing your side. Some Muay Thai and kickboxing schools teach to spin all the way through if you miss with this kick. I was taught not to do so and that this is a risky habbit, I have seen a few people get hurt because of this.
The reason why you pivot so much on the supporting foot is so you can follow through with your hip to generate more power. I will not always pivot on my supporting foot if I want to throw a quick leg kick to set up for a "bomb", but it won't be as powerful and will probably be with more instep then shin when doing so.